Giving God Your Life - Mike Willis

Pastor Mike Willis joins us on this episode.  We talk about prayers that haven’t aged well and coffee addiction.  Then we discuss growing up in the church, parenting and what it means to say yes to God. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:15

Hello, and welcome to the Testimony Tag Team Podcast. I'm Charlie, your host, and I'm here with my beautiful wife and tag team partner, Valerie.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Thank you, and hello everyone. Despite the name, this podcast is not about professional wrestling.

SPEAKER_04 0:28

That's correct. It's a podcast about glorifying God through stories from the lives of his followers.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

We're here for real stories, conversations, and a few laughs. So let's share a metaphorical cup of coffee or any other enjoyable beverage as we tag in our next guest.

SPEAKER_05 0:53

Before we get to today's episode, we're going to talk about what this word testimony means.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

It's our belief that every follower of God has a story of how God has impacted their life, something that we can share that brings glory to God and encouragement to others.

SPEAKER_05 1:07

Sometimes that story is specific to when you were saved. Sometimes it's a season that God helped you through, or sometimes it can be God growing you through everyday challenges.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

So what we're saying is, as a Christian, you definitely have a story to share. And we're ready to tag you in here on the Testimony Tag Team Podcast. Reach out to us at testimony tagteam at gmail.com or click the link in the podcast notes to connect with us about sharing your story.

SPEAKER_05 1:32

Today's guest on the Testimony Tag Team podcast is Pastor Mike Willis. Hello. Hey Mike, how are you doing today?

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Doing good. I've been in traffic all day coming from a conference, but it's good to be here with you.

SPEAKER_05 1:42

Thanks for having me on.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Yeah. I-4 is that'll test your holiness.

SPEAKER_05 1:48

You're right about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

For sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:50

27 is not much better, though, these days.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

That's true. That's true.

SPEAKER_05 1:53

Okay. Well, Mike is a pastor at High Point Church, our church, he's our pastor. So we're grateful for Mike to come on to uh be our guest on today's podcast. So welcome.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_05 2:06

All right. So first up is our segment, Tag Your It segment. So, Mike, um, you can see here obviously this giant spinning wheel that uh we will why do you keep trying to convince the audience of this?

SPEAKER_00 2:26

It's a giant wheel, picture price is right. We're in a tiny four-walled room. That's great. I know.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Yeah, as long as we don't all end up bankrupt, we're okay.

SPEAKER_04 2:37

All right, so Mike's gonna spin the wheel.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Or I'm gonna spin the wheel. I think you should make a sound effect for this.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

That's a great idea, actually.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

I want to hear it. What's your best wheel sound?

SPEAKER_01 2:49

It's just a bunch of clicking, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05 2:51

Yeah. It didn't. There's no sound. All right, so here's the question. What's a prayer that you prayed that didn't age well? So there's a prayer that you had at any point in your life that did not age well.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

That didn't age well?

SPEAKER_05 3:13

Yeah. What do you mean by it's embarrassing in some way? Maybe there's a particular thing you hoped would happen. And you could take it however you want to in this, you know, you can make it, you know, mean whatever you want, I suppose. But think for a second and see if you could come up with something that might qualify.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

The first thing that came to my mind is times when I've bargained with God. If you do this, I will do that. And that never works out well. You know, I remember years ago, I was really early on. I mean, I grew up in a Christian home, but I was I had finally gotten serious about it. Your your faith changes when it has to be yours and not just your parents. And so I'm in my mid-20s. I'm a husband, I'm a father at that point, and I wanted my wife to get this job really bad that she had been applied for, she interviewed for. The interview went well, it was down to her and another person. And and I remember saying, God, if you give her this job, I will do this. And I don't even remember what this was, and you know, she didn't get the job. And imagine that, right? You bargain with God and it doesn't work out in your favor, usually. So that's what what came to my mind is just about when you try to convince God that uh how he should answer your prayer. That's what I would say.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 4:31

Yeah, it's a good one. It's funny we try to try to manipulate God to do what we want, right? And we can't see. Doesn't usually work out. No, exactly. Oh, I could definitely relate to that. Let's see if I could think of I'm stumped on this one. I I'm a little stumped on this one too. I'd say again, I didn't know. I went first to help you guys. Yeah, that was helpful, Mike.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

This is our question. Yeah. We should know how to answer this.

SPEAKER_05 4:54

I don't pre-screen these, so it's you can now. This is genuine. Let's see. So I agree with Mike. I think there's a lot of times where I've prayed for things that you know, as as I've gotten older, I realized that it would have been a terrible idea for me to have that thing. Like, I don't know if I put specifically prayed for winning the lottery, but you know, it's something you know you kind of uh you kind of fantasize about at some point, right? When it gets up to like the billion dollar jackpot or something, you're like, well, what if I won that? And I don't know, that probably would be the worst thing for you, you know. That so I I'd say something like that. I've probably prayed for something silly, like you know, obscene wealth or something at some point in my life. And I just know that you know, if I was real, if I was honest with myself, it wouldn't, it wouldn't go well.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

I don't think I have that good of an imagination to be praying for off the wall stuff. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 5:49

Maybe it's just got a perfect prayer life.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

No, it's not perfect. I guess maybe I don't know if I specifically prayed it or not, but I think whenever I was younger, I used to really hope maybe not for quite fame, but I really like to be recognized for like like singing well or something like that. But I can't say that I ever prayed to be famous, and I definitely would not want to be famous now.

SPEAKER_05 6:13

So maybe that was uh something that you might have thought thought you wanted. Maybe okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

So maybe it died quickly.

SPEAKER_05 6:19

Maybe you recognize that was a no-good prayer even at that time.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

Sure, we'll go with that.

SPEAKER_05 6:25

Okay, okay. All right, all right. So, Mike, let's start with a little bit of a little bit about yourself, you know. So, where did you grow up? And you know, we'll start with that.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

Yeah, that's a loaded question because my dad was in the Air Force. Uh so I was born in Alabama, I lived there, and then we were transferred to a to a base in Charleston, South Carolina, and then we went to Germany for four years. That's where I went to middle school. Then we came to Florida and he retired from the Air Force, which is where I finished high school, was here in Florida, planned to stay here until I got called into ministry, and then we left uh the sunny, secure Florida to go up to frigid, cold Michigan and spent a year up there doing an internship with a church, and then we went to Columbus, Ohio, and Virginia, and now I've been in this area of Polk County, Florida for 20 years. So where I'm from, that that's that's a little question. That's a big one. Lots of lots of answers for that.

SPEAKER_05 7:18

A lot of bouncing around, I see. Yeah, yeah. How was that like growing up? Is that was that difficult to make those kind of adjustments?

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Or you know, the the thing is when you're in the military, you don't get a choice. The the government says you're going here, and that's where you're going. And so you just kind of learn to adapt with that. And I grew up, that was the only life I knew. And so you you know, you move every three, four, five years, and then you meet all new people, you know, sometimes in another country, who've done the very same thing. And so you all kind of just adapt to that. It's it's a little hard to start over like that. So when we moved to Florida, he had one year left in the Air Force, and so he retired, and then he got a job working at the Space Center because we were over in Brevard County, Melbourne area. And so I had asked my parents, can I just stay at this high school and finish at the same school? And so they allowed me to do that. We had to get a waiver and all those things, but it was the best thing for me. And then when I meet people now who have lived in the same area their whole life, it's it's fascinating, it's mind-boggling to me. I can't even understand what that would be like. Yeah, we've got one guy here who's a leader at the church that he lived in one house and then he bought the house next door so that his parents could move in there. Wow. And he's only been in these two houses his whole life. Wow. It's um it's fascinating to talk with him. And I've lived in, I think, 33 places in 53 years, you know, something like that. Wow. So, but I I've been in this area for 21 years now, which is the longest I've ever lived anywhere.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

So how good are you at packing up for moving as a result?

SPEAKER_01 8:49

Well, considering we just did this six months ago, not very good at all. We sold our house and built another one, and man, I I can't believe that my wife and I survived that. At one point, we looked at each other one time and we were just exhausted from packing and cleaning and getting the house ready to sell. And I looked at her and said, I never want to do this again. Yeah, yeah. So I'm not good at all. Yeah. Again with the military, they send packers and movers, and that's true. Yeah, that's also helpful. But yeah, we're I'm not very good at it all. Don't want to do it again. Still holding on to that.

SPEAKER_05 9:22

All right, so you you live in the Lake Wales area, and uh tell us a little bit about home life, your family currently.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Yeah, so currently we have my wife and I, Alana, we've been married going on nine years now, been together 10, and we have six kids. We're a blended family. We each lost our previous spouse of cancer. We each had three kids, so now we have six, and they are ages 32, 25, 25, 23, 23, and then pray for us. We have a 15-year-old girl. She's great, though. I love her, you know, and I never had girls before. I only had we only had sons, so this is a whole new world for me, and I love the relationship that I have with her. But God's been really good to us, you know. We've been through a lot of grief, our kids have been through a lot of grief, and he just really dramatically, powerfully, single-handedly brought Lynn and I together. And it's we're so grateful for that, for the relationship we have and the the kids we have, you know. Now we only have two left in the home. Griffin is 23, and he'll probably be moving out at some point this year, and then Collins will be going to college in three years. So, you know, it's then it's an empty nester, and we've never had that, so it'll be interesting. But we just moved into a new house, and at least once a day we look at each other and say, I love our house, which is good considering I said we never want to move again. So uh but we're very thankful. It's you know, a couple minutes from the church, and that that's been really great to be close here and just so grateful for what God's done.

SPEAKER_05 10:51

Yeah, your your youngest is the same age as my oldest. They they kind of grew up in Babson Park, that's right. Elementary together, and so that's that's kind of fun. Yeah, that they're kind of the same one, same age.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

This is my sec that was my second go-round through Babson Park. Yeah. The first round of kids, and now this one.

SPEAKER_05 11:06

So yeah. All right. So next question, just uh question I think we're gonna ask all our guests. You're our first actually official guest. Wow, I'm honored. Yeah, yeah. So uh so but this is I think a question that's important to us, and uh so we're going to uh is it important or is it a problem?

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Yeah, no, the longer you say it, I'm still the scared the more scared I get.

SPEAKER_05 11:30

Yeah, by building it up too much. So the question is, Mike, how addicted to coffee are you?

SPEAKER_01 11:37

I think I'm on like cup four or five for today. So see, that's not that bad. That's not that bad. Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that. I I mean I have I I drink black coffee hot, you know, that's the only way I'll drink it. I can go through a pot a day if I want to. I could go through more than that, and I have to switch to decaf after five because then I'm up all night and it and my wife wants to kill me. Um but I I just I I love it. You know, I if I'm just sitting, it doesn't matter how hot or cold it is outside, I can drink but hot coffee and I'll I'll I enjoy the taste of it.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

So I aspire to be a black coffee drinker. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:15

I'm not we we we ask this as addicts ourselves because uh we usually come from the same we as you know you officiate our our wedding. Yeah, and it which was at a coffee shop. At a coffee shop.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

So my first and only time I've done that.

SPEAKER_05 12:29

It was great. So uh all right, so now now we got we can get to the all right. All right, so so Mike, how would you describe your relationship with God growing up?

SPEAKER_01 12:43

You know, my mom raised my brother and I in church. We were there every Sunday, every Sunday night, every Wednesday night. I remember crawling under the pews during prayer meeting, doing anything I can to get outside on the playground instead. I I remember that and it was drilled into me. And my dad didn't go to church, he wasn't a Christian until later on in life I was in ministry, and so she faithfully raised us there. She made sure that we were were taught the Bible from a very early age. She didn't give us the choice if we want to go to church or not, because we don't get a choice in our home, you just go, and and I'm thankful for that that she instilled that in me. And so you kind of learn who Jesus is, who God is, what he has done, what he can do from those Bible stories, you know. And I remember them on like the flannel graphs, and there was no, you know, projectors and DVDs and all that. So I remember the flannel graphs is how those Bible stories came to life as a kid, but then I got into teenage years and then I started to stray a little bit, and then somewhere around age 23, that's when I really decided to get serious. I think I was sharing this earlier. I had you know a wife and a baby, and and you gotta kind of re-examine where your life is going at that point. So growing up, I always knew who God was. I learned about Jesus from a young age. I got saved when I was age eight, got baptized that year, and but there wasn't a lot of people teaching me what it means to grow in him. And you know, I I don't know that I would have been listening if somebody was trying to either, so I don't want to, you know, it's not the fault of the teacher themselves as well, because sometimes you've you take a role in that, but I just think that that's that's part of it. I was taught a lot of it, but at some point that faith had to become mine, and that's what that's what happened there.

SPEAKER_05 14:38

Okay. So would you say your relationship with him was more of an activity than a relationship growing up?

SPEAKER_04 14:47

Is that a good way, a fair way to say it?

SPEAKER_01 14:49

I think so. That's I don't I don't know that I've ever thought of it that way as an activity, but that's an interesting way of thinking about it, just because it was something that was that's what we did on Sunday. We went to church. On Wednesday night, we went to church, on Sunday night we went back, those kinds of things. It was just it was part of the routine, and that's not a bad thing per se, as long as you understand the reason for going. And so it I don't know that I embraced the relationship aspect until I was an adult and really needed that. But the the activity part that's really interesting to think of it that way.

SPEAKER_03 15:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

I think one thing Charlie and I have kind of talked around, because I I was raised in the church too, and I think activity is a good way to describe it. That's what you did. You went to church Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, wherever else you're needed, you plug in. But the relationship aspect, I don't think was necessarily there, but I was saved at a young age. And I one of the things I think we've talked about is like, were we really saved at that young age? Or did the salvation come at the older age when we more understood what the relationship was? I don't know if you have any thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

You know, I think I don't ever remember my mom or any teachers in my upbringing teaching me what it was meant to have a relationship with him. He certainly saved me from my sins. I remember being taught that and having that almost drilled into me. But I don't know that anybody ever sat me down and explained the relationship part. This is what you do with someone on you have a relationship with on a daily basis. I don't ever remember someone teaching me how to have a devotional time or how to memorize scripture or some of those things. But my mom did. You know, I I remember seeing her over in the chair over in the corner, and she had a journal and she had a Bible, and you know, she read that faithfully. But I I don't really know that anybody taught me that as far as having the relationship aspect of it.

SPEAKER_05 16:46

Sounds like your mom was very, you know, influential, a good example, and and kind of showed you uh lived out her faith in a way that you could model, I guess. And it sounds like she kind of had at least, you know, that was one area you mentioned you moved around a lot, and but it sounds like church thing was pretty consistent.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:05

How would you say that helped you as a kid, that that consistency and that that routine of that?

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Well, I think that's just it, is that it kept me in a place where I was always hearing biblical preaching and and being taught, you know, prayer and music and some of those things that I carried with me. So even in those years when I strayed, there still was this conviction of the Holy Spirit. I I knew I wasn't living my life right. In fact, there was a period of time where I got saved every Sunday, you know, and and I'm I'm jokingly saying that, but there's a little bit of truth to that. You know, every every week when our pastor would, you know, give a response time or an altar call or an invitation, I I knew I wasn't living right. And so I was praying hard and confessing those sins then. But it wouldn't be, you know, maybe the next day or even that evening, and I'm back to living however I was living, and and not in a way that I should have been. So so I I think that's a part of it, you know, that that you just you you learn some of those things that that stuck with me. And even when I did stray, even when I wasn't living right, I still was feeling the conviction of the Lord on that. And I think that's a big thing for people to understand that he does that because he loves you. That's him pursuing you, wanting to spend more time with you, wanting that relationship that we talked about.

SPEAKER_05 18:27

Yeah, I think you know, I've talked about in the past, on on our first episode, I kind of we talked about how I had a similar kind of a period where I was, you know, I was raised raised in the church, and but I had a time in my early adult life where I was you know messing around with the world, and you know, I but I I kind of like what you're describing, like I don't think I ever let go of God, or probably more likely He He never let go of me. Right. And so I did always kind of feel I I knew that I was doing wrong, but I was pursuing these worldly things anyways, and you know, led l led me to a lot of like during that time of just questioning my salvation a lot. And you know, looking back at it now, I I think God was kind of working in me all along, and so that's kind of the conclusion I've come to, and that was that I think I was initially saved at a young age, but that I kind of have been growing into it throughout that whole time, and God's just been working in me, and so so even even in the time of rebellion, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

And I think that's part of of why it was so important that my mom kept us in church, because there certainly were lots of times of questioning, especially when you look at some of the things that we went through. You know, I had a brother that died when I was five years old, and it affected my parents deeply. Well, of course, now that I understand trauma and grief and have experienced some of that myself, I can see that. And I just think that when you have those times of questioning, if you don't have that foundation and you don't have other people that are speaking biblical truth to you, it's really easy to walk away from that. Or it could be, but because I had people in my life that no matter how I was living, they still loved on me and still kept trying to to instill these biblical principles in me. As a result of that, I think that that's helped me uh it helps me now when I when I am doing the work that I'm called to do as a pastor, that it's okay for you to question what's going on. I I tell people all the time, God's big enough to handle your questions. And when my first wife died, I remember saying to myself at some point, I I am never gonna get the answer to the why question. And I have to be okay with that. And I did, and that was a turning point for me that okay, I since I know I'm not gonna get the answer, I could be stuck here and waiting for an answer that I might never get, or I can trust God and keep going. And I'm so thankful that I chose that route because of the lessons that He's taught me along the way.

SPEAKER_05 20:59

That's that's good. Like the idea of kind of letting go of the why, that's that's really huge. That's really good.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Yeah, well, even if you got an answer, would it be good enough?

SPEAKER_05 21:09

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

It's not gonna bring her back, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:12

So, you know, yeah, it's just a matter of trust at some point. You gotta, you know, trust that God, God knows better than you. Right. And uh wow, that's that's that's very cool. Yeah, I so I think you mentioned, you know, in your early 20s, you you you pivoted toward ministry. Did I get that right?

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Not at first. So I was playing college baseball and got hurt, and I thought, oh, I had to go to physical therapy over the summer, and I looked around and thought, I could do this for a living, and I could make pretty good money doing it. And that was kind of my goal there. And then I went through that and was taking prerequisites, and I had gotten married because the playing career was over, and we moved out of town, and then you start to hit real life as a result of that, and so then you know that I was. At a really low point, just trying to figure things out. I was just about to get ready to apply for physical therapy school. And that's when God started to really deal with me and called me into ministry. And so that just completely shifted gears for me and talked with my pastor, who was also my father-in-law, and explained it to him. He had been a pastor. He's been in pastoring for over 50 years now. And so he was right there to give me great advice, to link me up with some other leaders in our denomination and the church that we were part of. And then that's kind of how I started down that path. Without a Bible degree, without seminary, I just kind of started and went on staff. The way we did it in that movement was that they put you on staff at a church, and that guy was mentoring you and bringing you along. And so made a lot of mistakes in the in the early days. Still do, right? We all do. But I look back and go, I just God bless Doug Birch for sticking with me, you know. And I I stayed there a year and then I went on to pastor at on my own. And but so it was it was a I hate to say later in life because it was late 20s, but it wasn't what I originally intended to do. Okay. How did you know that God was calling you into ministry? That's a great question. You know, I it was a time when we were struggling in in our marriage in the early days, and I I just remember being in a church where I I reached a point where I said, I can't do this anymore. I can't make the changes that that she's asking me to make and become the man that she's asking me to be on my own. I'd do great for a couple weeks, maybe if I made it that long, and then I go right back into it. And that was about the time, it was the mid-90s. There was a ministry called Promise Keepers that was up and coming then, and a men's ministry where they had stadium events. Like I went to one in the where the Jacksonville Jaguars play, where the Tampa Bay Buccaneers play. They would fill these stadiums and have Christian speakers and worship, and it was all men. And when you sit in a stadium with 70,000 men and they're all praising God, and all the sermons are directed at helping you be a godly man and a godly husband and a godly father, I needed that and I soaked every bit of it up. And so soon after that, I just started to that's when I immersed myself in things like a devotional time. And I think I I was asked to be an elder at our church at that point, and so just some things like that. And then I started to feel like God was just calling me, like I couldn't get away from it. That no matter where I went, no matter what I did, I was still feeling like and getting the sense of him saying, Mike, I'm trying to get your attention. I have a night a desire for you, I have a job for you to do, something that I've created you to do. And then you start to realize that. And the more you pray and you talk with people, and then you would see people, people would come up to me and just say, Hey, have you ever thought about being a pastor? Or they would just flat out ask me if I was. Well, no, I'm actually praying, and I'm talking people, I'm walking into Publix, into the grocery store, and a lady asks me that one day, out of the blue, no idea who she was, never seen her again in my life. Wow. And I say, you know, I I am actually praying about that right now. And that, you know, then you would just get these affirmations and these confirmations, and so things like that. And then when you start feeling that and you talk with somebody about it, thankfully, the people that I talked to didn't say, You're crazy or you should never do that. I mean, the one was my father-in-law, and he was a pastor himself, and so he had every chance and every opportunity to say, Don't do it, right? Don't do it. But he didn't. He said, Well, if God's calling you, then you you can't get away from that if you want to be obedient. And so let's let me help you take these steps. And so then then we talked about that. And then so I helped start a men's group at our church. They sent me to a training for that, and we started it. And then soon enough, soon after that, there was a nursing home in the area that needed someone to do a church service on Sunday afternoon for their residence. And I remember this, there were six people that would come, and three of them stayed awake the whole time. And and there was this lady, Faith, and she would come up to me every time. And I would do this twice a month, and she would say, He was here talking about God. And I go, How do you even know that? You weren't even awake, you know, and so things like that, just the preparing. And then soon after that, there was a gentleman in our church that said, Hey, I'm going up north for the summer, as that happens in Florida here a lot, and I need somebody to step in for a jail ministry. Are you interested? And I said, Well, I don't know. You know, let me talk with my wife. When is it? Friday night. I said, Yeah, let me definitely talk with my wife. And she said, Absolutely, I think you should do this. So I did. And I went into the the jail cell every Friday night for three months, and I started to see there were like 12 to 24 guys that could come out and come to the service. And I started to notice some of these same guys coming out every time. And I thought, wow, I must really be great at this. Now I look back and I realize they just want to get out of their cell for that long.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

Maybe not, maybe not, you don't know.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

Maybe not. They kept coming back, and I remember one night I had I spoke on the life of Moses, that a simple man can do a simple thing in a simple way. How I remember that, I don't know, but that was the sermon. And it was all about the calling of Moses, and that was really what I was going through at the time. And so uh it just was things like that. And every week I would prepare these sermons, and then I remember that night that that God said, That's that's what I have for you, that's what I want you to do. So that kind of started that process. And you know, over the years, that calling doesn't go away. There was a time after about 13 years of ministry where we were just dog tired. I was burned out. I had hit a kind of hit a wall and needed a break. And so we left. And we were at small churches where I was the only pastor, so not the lead or the worship or the ministry development or the connections pastor. I was the only pastor. And that kind of took a toll on our family. So I I resigned and worked in the nonprofit world for about six years, and you and I did some work together actually during those years time period. And so that's when we started coming to High Point Church. And I just said, I I don't want to do anything, I don't want to teach anything, I just want to be in church, sit next to my wife for the first time in 13 years because I was always up preaching. And they said, Yeah, that's fine, you know, come on in. And so they let me do that for a while, and then God starts to nudge you a little bit, and and you know it because you just get this feeling and and you can't get away from it. Like keeps you awake at night. You wake up first thing in the morning thinking about it, and and you're going, Oh, we're going down this road again. But I know that because God's calling me to do that, I know that he's going to equip me to do that. And I want to be obedient because the life without that, with the life that says no to him, is not a life of blessing that you want to experience. And so the calling doesn't stop, it just kind of changes how you fulfill that calling. And that's what I've noticed in uh what this is my what 26th year of ministry now that you know the the calling is still there to do what God is telling me to do. The assignment has changed over the years at different times, even here at this church. I'm not in the same role that I was when I first came in. And that's expanded and changed and shifted, but it's all part of doing what God is asking me to do.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

When you say calling, then well, what would you say the the calling is? So if it's not just a pastor, can you expand on that?

SPEAKER_01 29:47

I mean, I think it is to pastor people, that's what my calling is, just the same as my wife is a teacher. I think she's called to be a high school teacher. Some people are called to work in the mental health field or you know, wherever it is. You can be called to serve in whatever area God has sent you to. And and if you're saying yes to him, he's going to get you into that role. I I think that the calling is is just something that I was thinking about this today. I was on my way back home from this pastor's meeting in Orlando and was praying about someone and and just asking God to do something in their life. And for this person I'm praying for, they've come from a real far away off from they had turned away from God for many years and walked uh just about as far away as you can. And now they've come back, and so I'm asking God to do I this came to my mind to do an Ephesians 2 work in their life. And that's where you read about Paul writes about this in Ephesians 2, where you used to be this way. You were dead in your transgressions and your sins, but now I've brought you back, and and now you've been saved, and this isn't something you can do on your own. It's not something that you can boast about, it's a gift of God. And then he says that you were created to be a masterpiece, and that God has created these things in advance for you to do. So the way I see that is he's done things when he created you and put you in your mother's womb, there was a plan for your life and your life and my life. And and God knows that, being all-knowing and the creator. And so when he does these things, he's putting them in you. And as you grow and mature, you start to hear the voice of God about what it is that he is asking you to do, what he's calling you to do. And, you know, and you do that for the rest of your life. That's how that's the way that I see it. And then how you do that may change from here or there, depending on where you're at and what you're going through.

SPEAKER_05 31:48

Yeah. So maybe the calling is to serve God myth, the calling for all of us, right? To serve God and his kingdom in some way. And, you know, for you more specifically, it's as a pastor. And then from there it gets even more specific to the role as as a pastor in the areas of ministry that you're you're working on. That's sure interesting.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

You know, and Ephesians also talks about that he he called some to be pastors and and evangelists and teachers, and there's different roles there. And then you read throughout the New Testament, there's different gifts. You know, if your gift is leadership, use that. If it's mercy, use that, whatever that is. And so I I just think that that's it. That the the calling is for us to to say yes to God to whatever area it is that he's sending you to. And man, if you'll do that, you'll experience so many amazing things. Yes, there will be opposition because we live in a world where there's an enemy fighting against that, but we also can be focused on the fact that he's on our side and he's doing the work in us and through us.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Yeah. I guess I'm kind of curious, you know, like being a pastor is certainly not a bad thing. No, it's challenging. I know it has its own challenges. Yeah. It's not a bad thing though. So, like, if someone's growing up and they're like, Oh, I'm gonna be a pastor one day, it doesn't sound bad. So if you had if if if there's a listener that maybe thinks they want to be a pastor, they're not sure if it's a calling or not, how could they distinguish since it's not a bad goal? How do they distinguish that they're really hearing the voice of God in that it's God directing their feet and not their brain?

SPEAKER_01 33:25

Yeah, I think that's good. I think that's where you can get around some other people and ask them, hey, I'm feeling like God is telling me to do this. And and I always say, I read this in Henry Blackaby, wrote this that 30 or 40 years ago, that when God speaks to you, he confirms it through his people, through his word, and through his spirit. And, you know, so get around some people that can can direct you, that can pray with you about that. You read like the Old Testament where I think it was Samuel, right? Where God's calling Samuel, and he goes to Eli the priest, and three or four times Eli's like, I didn't call you. Go back to sleep, it's the middle of the night, leave me alone, I'm tired. And then finally Eli realizes, oh, God's calling him. And then he says, Okay, Samuel, the next time that happens, I want you to say, speak, Lord, for your servants listening. And so I think that we've got to be open to what it is that God wants to say to us. This is where it goes back to like when I grew up in all those churches and people are teaching me the word, even though I'm not embracing it and living it out, I knew what it what it meant to hear the voice of God. Because I said no to him a lot back then. And you know, so I I knew what that meant when God was speaking to me. So get in a Bible-believing church, first of all, that's going to teach you God is present, he is active, and he is speaking. And so then it comes down to well, how do you get to know each other so that you can hear his voice in a powerful way? And so talk with someone, talk with your pastor, talk with people in in a group of men or women that you're, you know, if you're in a small group or if there's another believer at your job, talk with somebody like that and and see what they say, and then just start listening. Start asking God to show you, I feel like you're saying this to me. Is that the case? And then wait to listen for his voice. That's the other thing I think. When you start asking God to do that, he's going to answer. We've got to slow down long enough to listen. And so if someone is experiencing that and they're wrestling with a calling, you know, sometimes we tell people that are feeling that that that leading, well, if you can do anything else, do it. Because it it is a high calling. James 3 talks about that, you know, those of us that teach, those of us that are called to be pastors, have a higher standard and they're going to be judged more strictly. So there is a lot of responsibility that comes with that. But it is a great thing to be a part of because I've gotten to see God do so many incredible things in my life and in the lives of others. So even just seeing you two, you know, get married and and the uh the great coffee we had that day when we celebrated, you know, those kinds of things. But that was God working in your lives. And I that's the part that I love being a part of here. I I love to see other people have that light bulb moment where they have heard from God, and now it's about, well, what do I do now that I've heard this?

SPEAKER_05 36:28

Okay, yeah. So yeah, it's uh you mentioned kind of the just that, you know, there's uh responsibility, but there's also some some you know perks that go along with it, and just kind of seeing God work in the lives of his people as so is there anything else you can add to that, like any other things you love about being a pastor that that you haven't mentioned already?

SPEAKER_01 36:46

I I in my the last few years I've been involved in a recovery ministry. We have celebrate recovery here at our church. And when I first started in it, I thought it was just because it was something, a new ministry we were starting at church. Then I got into it and I realized, oh, wait, I need this as well. And so what's happened is God has brought a lot of freedom in my life that wasn't there before. I'm stronger, I'm more confident with a lot of the things that he's brought me through. And so that's one of the joys that I have now is to not only see the light bulb moment when people get it, but to see them living on the other side of that, experiencing his blessing, his freedom that he wants for all of us, if we'll just say yes to him, if we'll just answer that call and do what it is that he's asking us to do, there's a whole lot of great, amazing things that happen as a result of that.

SPEAKER_05 37:38

How how as the as time has gone on, you know, in the different phases of your life, you know, how has life changed in the current phase that you're in right now?

SPEAKER_01 37:48

I think we're just in a place. I I was talking about this earlier when we were talking about moving into this new house. You know, we're just in a place of enjoying where God's brought us. W we say, and I'm repeating myself, that that at least once a day, one of us says to each other, My wife and I, I I love our house. I'm so grateful for where I'm at. And that's one of the things that I'm enjoying about life now. Now I'm starting to see our children as adults most of the time, and where they are having the same kind of light bulb moments that I talked about that I had years ago. And I'm seeing them start to follow their calling. And, you know, whether that's in real estate or in the financial world or teaching school or ones in ministry, and you know, a couple of others are in education, whatever role it is, they're doing exactly what God's told them to do. And I say to them, man, I wish I was asking that at your age. I wish that when I was 20, I was asking God, what is it you want to do with my life? Would have saved me a lot of heartache. And so I that's one of the things that I'm enjoying as well, is seeing our our children embrace their faith and start to live that out also. Because there's this legacy part of it, right? That that God has not only called me to do something, but he's called me to be a husband and a father, and someday a grandfather. And so if I have all of these people that that follow what we do here at church and and my own kids aren't doing it, well then that that is something's missing there. And so seeing that, seeing them come alive in Christ now has been really encouraging and exciting to see.

SPEAKER_05 39:35

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's something I think about a lot with our kids is you know, they're they're getting older, and you know, there's you know, I'm trying to, you know, pour into them. We're we're trying to pour into them as much as we can, read read our Bible with them, and and just do as much of what we can. But you know, there's a point where you know you gotta have to kind of let let off of the wheel, so to speak, and how we find that, how have you found that transition going from the uh the one you when you have to let go of control like that?

SPEAKER_01 40:04

I wish somebody had told us that uh parenting adult children was gonna be easier, but it because it's not. So um you you think it is because they're on their own and you're not having to tell them get up out of bed, tie your shoes, you know, do your laundry this week, whatever it is. But now there's the the problems are kind of elevated. Not problems, but you know, questions and and things that that you want to see happen, and you just can't control how they're gonna do that. I don't have a control over are they gonna get up and and go to church if they live in a different city or state? Are they going to love their wife the way Jesus calls them to? Is those kinds of things when they have kids? Are they gonna raise them up in the instruction and training of the Lord the way that we tried to? And then I hope that they don't make the same mistakes that I did when I was raising them. And there's all so those are all all the things that we're facing now, and you know, and I'm thankful for it because we have two of our kids live in our neighborhood, in this new neighborhood, and one lives right next door to us, and so I'm enjoying getting to spend more time with them, and and only one is not living in this area. And like I said, he's pastoring down in South Florida, so but we talk regularly, and so it's been really amazing just to see the men and women that they're becoming uh uh in their faith. And so that's the part that I'm I'm really excited to see what happens next.

SPEAKER_05 41:31

It's kind of like you know, the stakes are different now, you know, and they're little, you gotta worry about them falling and hurting themselves or something. But now, you know, if they're adults and the just blow their lives up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

I was gonna say those falls hurt a lot more now. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:47

So I think you've kind of you've kind of circled around this idea of like kind of giving God your life your life. You kind of mentioned that. I think you've talked about your life and and watching, you know, your kids give their lives to God. What you know that I think when you're saved, right, they say that you know you give your heart to God, right? And and you know, but what does it look different to give your heart to God compared to giving him your life?

SPEAKER_01 42:16

I I think so. I think there's a distinction there, you know, and theologians have argued about this for hundreds of years. Does that happen at the same time? Is it a second work of grace? All I can tell you what happened to me is that I got saved at a young age and walked away from that. I sure wouldn't have wanted to to meet the Lord during during those years. I'm thankful in his grace and mercy that I didn't. But I do know that at some point in my mid-20s, as I've already talked about, he did something powerful. And then he just keeps doing that. And I so I think that I I think that's just the case that that it is really is comes down to giving him your heart and then giving him your life. And when you give him your life, it's like there's different areas of your life that you give. So you give this and you give this, and maybe you give your marriage to him, and then you give your finances to him, and then you give your kids to him, and then you give your hurts to him. Could you do those at the same time? Yes, but sometimes they it just might be others. You know, we've lived in our house five months now, and the garage is still not unpacked. But that that's an area where we still have some improvement to make, and I think our spiritual life is the same. Living room looks great. You know, it's got the new couch and the the rug and the entertainment center, and I think we need a bigger TV because we only have a 75 inch because football season's coming again soon.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

Oh, so you can watch Alabama when it's harder.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

Probably so. Probably so. But you know, so some areas of the house look great, but then there's other areas where they just still need improvement, and I think our lives are the same way. C.S. Lewis talked about that a little bit in Mere Christianity about that there's different halls and Rooms that you go in, and you know, be kind to people that are in different rooms. I I never forgot that. So I just think that there's still work that he wants to do. And as long as we are here and alive and breathing, there's still work for him to do in us and through us.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

I guess I'm kind of thinking like God's like the heartbeat, and he's pushing the blood through the veins out into the different parts of the body to make it work. But they're kind of maybe some of them are a little clogged and he's having to work through them to like get it really rolling. That's good.

SPEAKER_01 44:30

Yeah. I've never thought of it that way.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

Maybe it's a little different. I don't know, the vein reference is weird, but that's where I was like, oh, I was like, maybe that's what it is because we're kind of like, I don't, I feel like I keep spinning around this this idea, but it's like growing up in the church, it we were always told like once saved, always saved, which I don't disagree with. But I think everyone has this concept of like when you're saved, you're perfect. And we're so not, because if we were, why would we even need God?

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Right, right. Because we'd have it all figured out.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

And so it's like we really have to like change this perspective. And maybe, maybe over the years, I think I've seen the church kind of move more towards that perspective where it's like, okay, you're not just saved at the altar and everything is perfect and you're great. It is really a working process. That's where that relationship is, because definitely, like, I think of like a marriage relationship, like things are not perfect. We have to work at them and we work in different areas of it. So it's the same when you think about that relationally with God. There are different aspects of that relationship you're working on. I'm working on giving trust in this area. I'm working on sacrificing this part, doing this, but it's always an active, conscious effort. And then maybe there are seasons where you're not so conscious and you backslide a little bit and you're like, well, wait a minute. That's that's not right. That's not what I'm supposed to be doing.

SPEAKER_05 45:52

So I don't Yeah, I think, you know, there are times, you know, since I've become a Christian where, you know, I've like I mentioned earlier, like questioning my salvation. Like if I was really a Christian, I'd be, you know, better at reading my Bible. If I was really a Christian, I'd be praying, you know, more often the way I should. And, you know, but like I said, looking back over my life, I can see the progress I've made. And I can see that that, you know, of course, it's you know, I say the progress I've made, but it's you know, the the progress God has made in me. So it's, you know, and you know, it didn't feel like it at the time, but I, you know, I've just I can see now like I am closer. I'm not I'm not where I ultimately will be, you know, because it's it's I think I think the big church word is progressive sanctification, right? And so it's the idea that little by little, through the through life's you know, trials and through the different things we face, God's gonna, you know, make us better and and strengthen our faith and and draw make us more like Christ.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

Yeah, and I think that's all that's all true, and those those are helpful analogies. I tell people all the time, too, I don't know where I heard it or where I came up with it or or when it first hit me, but that when we get saved, we are as perfect as we can be, but we're not as perfect as we can become. And, you know, in that relationship that I have with God, only one of us is perfect and doesn't need any improvement, and that's so not me. And so every time that he's summoning me or leading me or calling me to take another step of faith, he's not doing that out of condemnation. He's wanting me to to move closer to him because he loves me that much. And and if I'll just embrace that, there's all these things that he wants to do on the way to do to that. And and so, you know, you you mentioned marriage, right? And so you guys have been married how long now? How long has it been?

SPEAKER_05 47:57

A little over a year, okay.

SPEAKER_01 47:59

Yeah, okay. So, you know, and we had some conversations. I'm not gonna disclose anything, don't worry. But the point is that when we're in a marital relationship, neither one of us are perfect. I'm not, Lana isn't, neither are you are you two, but we're striving to become better at being there for the other person, and that's the whole goal. And yeah, there's challenges and and we've got to work through things sometimes and conflict, and we've got to talk and be there for each other, and we've got to support each other and love each other, all the things that the Bible tells us to do. And if we'll just read the book, we'll learn a lot about that. That there is this God that loves us so much, for God so loved the world, he so loved me and you and you, and and in doing that, he wants us to move ever closer to him and become more like him in the process. That's the goal. And, you know, he is has offered us the way to do that through his son Jesus and through the Holy Spirit working in us. And so the the whole idea of perfecting us is not so I can look down at other people and go, why can't you get it together? Look how I how great I am. But what you can do is you he can then use you to reach back and pull other people and help them come closer to him. And so that's what I love about ministry and about being able to talk about things like this, because you really get the opportunity to speak into people's lives. And you really get the opportunity to celebrate when they take those steps of faith. Man, when you get people to and and you get to see them follow God in a whole new way, that that's the best thing ever because they're moving in the direction that they are supposed to be, that Almighty God wanted them to move in from the very beginning. And I think that that comes down to that giving him your life part. Okay, I I'm gonna give you this part of my life, and five years from now, he's gonna ask for more and more and more. And it it you use the word progressive, Charlie. It it really is that, and not in a negative connotation. Now there's like this whole progressive Christianity movement which says, oh no, no, let's question and doubt and debunk everything. This is progressing where I'm actually moving closer to him. That's the the sanctification part where I'm becoming more holy than I was before. I'm becoming more like Christ, and and that's really the goal that he's after. So it's about, am I going to feel bad when I mess up? Well, okay, but that should help me run to him. And when I do that, I'm always welcomed back into these loving arms, who forgives me, but but will say, Okay, don't do that again.

SPEAKER_02 50:45

Right.

SPEAKER_01 50:45

You know, if you hit your head against the wall 10 times, it's gonna start hurting and bleeding. So stop doing that. Instead, move away from the wall, those kinds of things. And so it just comes down to like we've talked about already so much, hearing his voice and knowing what he wants to do in your life.

SPEAKER_05 51:01

Kind of I I something that's kind of coming to me as I were talking about this, but like, you know, going back to the marriage example, you know, I think, you know, when Valer and I can work together to improve our relationship, it it kind of improves our ability to enjoy one another.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

Right.

SPEAKER_05 51:22

And I guess kind of the uh something uh struck me as you were talking is you know, as you know, we give our life more to God, if as we give him more of our life, that increases our ability to enjoy him, which really what else could be better? Like there's nothing that's the goal, isn't it? Is to enjoy God ever increasing and and forever and ever just enjoy him more and more and more because he's infinitely better. And so so I don't know. So maybe that's I don't know, that's kind of something that struck to me. It's as as you were talking about that, Mike, and kind of giving up those things that that are getting in the way so that we can enjoy him more.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

And so enjoy him instead of like running from him or fighting against him. Although I think sometimes we do have to go through those Russell moments.

SPEAKER_05 52:08

I think well, yeah, so so yeah, so instead of turning to things that you know, or maybe trying to control a situation that, you know, the way we think we should, but if we give it over to him, give him more of our life, that lets us appreciate him more or see his wisdom or or really, you know, find more meaning in in him in some way, you know, just deepens that relationship somehow.

SPEAKER_00 52:34

I like that.

SPEAKER_01 52:35

I I think too, you because you you said, do you mean like when you're not running from him anymore? That's part of it. But there's also this part of I can still be running to him and things can get better and better. So if I put a a number, you know, my relationship with God today is a six out of ten. I yelled at two people on I-4 this morning, hypothetically. You know, or I didn't I didn't get up in time to do the dishes before I left, or whatever it is, you know. But then tomorrow I I take some some huge steps of faith. And so it's more of an eight out of ten. So I haven't run from him, but I in running to him more, I I enjoy that more. My relationship with him grows because of that. So it's there, I think it's both of those. It's not either or, it's both and. You know, I can move away from him and and take that step and not you know walk in my faith but like I should, and that certainly impacts and affects the intimacy that I have with God, I can also run to him more than I was before, and that will affect it also. It'll just make it better. And and when you use the marital relationship, it works that way too, right? That the closer we get to each other, if Lana and I are each submitting to Christ out of rev sitting submitting to each other out of reverence for Christ, we're she's submitting to him, and so am I. We're both submitting to him, so we're going to move closer together as a couple as a result of that. And I tell married couples that all the time, that that's important. It's in the wedding vows in the sermon, the ceremony that we had for you a year ago, in the one that I just did about a month ago. It's in there because it's so important for us to each focus on that, but then to come together as a couple. So our love for each other grows and deepens. It's the same way with God. And marriage is a picture of our relationship with God, the Bible says. So I think it's important to focus on that.

SPEAKER_05 54:37

All right. Now we're coming to our tag out segment. Now, this is a time that we are going to kind of give one sentence, one or two, kind of a takeaway from the conversation that we've had with Mike. And and then, and then so I'll go, then Valerie will go, and Mike, you can give us our listeners a final encouragement or truth that you want to share. So my tag out kind of came there at the end. I it I don't know, it's kind of was running through my mind, but the idea of the more I give my life to God, the more of my life that I give to him, that that really gives me is is the ability to increase my ability to enjoy him. So I I kind of kind of like that that thought. And I feel like that is, you know, the less less I'm trying to control, the more I give God control, and that ultimately will increase my enjoyment of him.

SPEAKER_00 55:32

I think there were lots of nuggets of truth that we got throughout this, and it's I almost feel like I need an outline, but something I kind of wrote down while we were talking, and I I didn't catch the quote 100%, but you were talking about when we get saved, we're as perfect as we can be, but we're not as perfect as God can carry us to. And I know I'm ad-limitting a little bit there, but um I find myself circulating around that thought. So that's my tag out for today. Right.

SPEAKER_02 56:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 56:00

All right, Mike. So what would you like to leave our listeners with as a final encouragement?

SPEAKER_01 56:04

Sure, I'll just repeat that. When we get saved, we're as perfect as we can be, but we're not as perfect as we can become. That was the the lint end part of that. I think for me, there is this whole idea, you talked about in your tag out statement about enjoying him. And if I really enjoy my time with God, then it's not I'm not gonna go into that stress about, oh, what is he gonna say to me today? What what is he gonna challenge me to do today? What is he gonna make me do that I don't want to do? What you know, and there's all these negative connotations. The Sermon on the Mount starts in Matthew 5, that the disciples came to him and he began to teach them. And I think that I love that phrase, that verse, because it talks about when when the dis when somebody is a disciple, it means that they want to follow Jesus. And so they're coming to him. There's this effort on their part, and then there's a response where he begins to teach them. And if you read the Sermon on the Mount, what he does is just incredible. What what Jesus continues to lay out about what it means to follow him. But uh there's so much there that I think we miss because we don't enjoy coming to him and we don't enjoy being taught by him. But if we trust in his character and in who he is and in how much he loves us and wants the very best for us, then I should want to come to him. Unless I'm away from him because of sin, and then I should want to come to him as quickly as possible and get restored in that. But I should want to come to him and I should look forward to what he's going to teach me.

SPEAKER_02 57:43

Right.

SPEAKER_01 57:44

Because I know who he is and how he feels about me. And so I just think that that's important. And again, no matter what I did, no matter how far away I had strayed, I always believed he loved me. And it does that mean he's going to discipline me when I'm away? Sure, that's part of love. Our world doesn't understand that a lot now, but love does do discipline because that's real love. And so I I should be wanting to be in his presence on a regular basis. I should be wanting to pray where I submit my request to him. And I should be wanting to listen to see what he wants to say to me. And I should be wanting to follow him and do what it is that he's asking me to do. Because no matter what happens, no matter what roads I go down, no matter what hills I have to climb, he's going to be right there with me. So that's kind of what I'm walking away with here as well, to think about how is it that I can enjoy being with him even more.

SPEAKER_00 58:45

Yeah. Like that attitude. All right. Well, Mike, we appreciate you coming on. Thanks for having me. This has been fun.

SPEAKER_01 58:52

Yeah, yeah. Thanks, Mike.

SPEAKER_05 58:53

I'm excited for you two to do our first guest on the top. All right. So for you listeners, if today's episode encouraged you, share it with someone who might need it. If you're interested in sharing your testimony with us, uh, you can email us at testimony tagteam at gmail.com. This has been the Testimony Tag Team.

SPEAKER_00 59:14

And we're tagging out.