Pricing, Permission, and Doing Business Differently (Without Following the Rules) with Jess Langley

What if building your business felt more like trusting yourself... and less like following someone else’s rules for pricing, marketing, and growth?

In this episode:

00:00 Intro to Jess Langley, business doula + creative entrepreneur
02:50 What a business doula is and how it applies to online business
07:20 Using astrology for self-awareness and business decisions
10:00 What a business astrology reading includes (branding, pricing, marketing)
16:10 How to price your work based on value + ditch the  starving artist mindset
22:20 Spice Girls, creativity, and building a business that actually fits you

Hang out with Jess:

https://www.thecolorfuljess.com/
https://www.threads.com/@thecolorfuljess
https://www.instagram.com/thecolorfuljess/
https://creators.spotify.com/pod/profile/alwaysevolvingcoffeechats/

Hang out with Deanna:

https://deannaseymour.com
https://jointheplayhouse.com
https://instagram.com/thedeannaseymour

Check out the free community at jointheplayhouse.com

🪩 Join my FREE community with tons of fun events + 200+ creative business owners at jointheplayhouse.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Hey, I'm Deanna Seymour. Welcome to another episode of Cool People Doing Cool Things, where I interview um cool people doing cool things. Today I'm talking to business duela Jess Langley. She's here to help you make more income and impact by seeing yourself in full color through business astrology, coaching, and brand design. And we seriously had the funnest conversation. We talked about birthing babies and businesses and what it looks like to actually price your work in a way that sort of gets rid of that starving artist mentality. Uh, we talked about why astrology might be secretly your best business North Star. I'm paraphrasing with that one. And of course, we also discussed our favorite spice girls. So listen in, have fun and enjoy the show.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

Hey Jess, how's it going? It's going great. It's uh sunshiny here today. And I had a really slow morning. How's it going with you? It's also sunshiny here. Wait, did do I know where you're from? Where do you live? Uh I'm in Tampa, Florida. Where that's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Sunny. Uh East Coast also, but Richmond, Virginia.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

So I moved here from Baltimore, Maryland. So I feel like I am a I'm a I'm a Maryland girl. Like I'm a mid-Atlantic girl. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Okay, fun. Do you like the Baltimore Ravens?

SPEAKER_02 1:36

I actually like the Commanders. I grew up closer to DC and my whole family is like DC. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Well, my family's Steelers people, so I thought we were gonna have to fight at the beginning of this podcast. Even though probably neither of us cared that much about football. No, I don't care anymore. Yeah, people look at us and we go, we don't care about football. I know, but for some reason that like rivalry has stuck with me.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

I'm always like, Baltimore. Oh yeah. Anyone who says they're a Dallas Cowboys fan, I'm like, ooh, questionable. And then we're like, wait, actually, we don't care. We don't care.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Okay, cool. Well, okay. I'm so excited because actually you are my first guest on this new series I'm doing about cool people doing cool things. And I just sort of spotted you over on threads. And I was like, do you want to come here? Well, I have a like, I think I'm already ditching threads. I don't know what I'm doing with social media. I just run around and I'm like, maybe, no, maybe, no. So I think at the time we're recording this, I think I'm gonna ditch threads and Instagram. I mean, I'm gonna ditch threads and LinkedIn because I don't even know what I was doing over there. I'm not on, I'm not on LinkedIn, yeah. And I'm just gonna hang out. I need like one because I don't really like any of them, but I like people. And like this proves that, like, oh, well, you can meet cool people on social media, and now we're talking like humans, and I greatly enjoy this. Like, we've been talking before we hit record, and I'm like, oh my god, we're new best friends. So if social media can't give me new friends, that's okay, but I just don't really like any of them. I hear you. Which is not what this is about. So let me focus my attention back to this podcast. And the first thing I want to talk to you, this is the one thing that first caught my eye, was that you call yourself a business duel. And I want you to like just talk about that, explain where you came up with it, why you call yourself that, and yeah, say I love it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

Um, okay. Well, a few months ago, I was coming out of my cocoon of motherhood, and my youngest was starting daycare, and I was starting to um just like think about what's this next evolution, this next chapter of my business. Like I was a graphic designer and a muralist for a really long time. I started mindset and pricing coaching, and then I like took these pauses for motherhood. I had back-to-back babies, and um I was like, I feel like my whole thing, I have a podcast called Always Evolving Coffee Chats. My whole thing is evolving. We are always allowed to evolve. Like that was continued. And I had a really good experience both times with a um a birth doula and then a postpartum doula. And I was like, the whole point of a doula is to hold your hand through the process. So then I was like, well, what about a business doula? And I can't remember if I came up with that or if ChatGPT came up with that. I think I did, and then I was like typing in different options, and they were like, here's some additional names that you could consider. It was like pricing muse, and I was like, this feels very AI code. Um, but I'm pretty sure I came up with the business doula. I was like, what about business tool? And they were like, this, you know how supportive.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

They were like, oh my god, that is actually you nailed it. That's the best thing. And then you're like, no, maybe I'm not gonna be business. And they're like, yeah, right. That was actually a really bad idea. You're so right. Chat GPT is like the Gretchen Wiener of robots, right? Like it's always just like, yeah, yeah, totally, whatever. Whatever you want. Like that best friend in any of those movies. That's always just like to the Queen Bee, like, yeah, totally. Oh yeah, we hate her. We love her.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

Yeah, yes. But yeah, that's how business doula came about. And then I just kind of owned it. I was like, I didn't want to be called a coach anymore. Like I still go by myself as like a coach. Like, I'm a pricing coach, I business coach, but if I got to choose my title, it's business doula.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

I love it because the doula can't like actually have the baby for you. Like you gotta birth that baby, right? But they're there. Right. And there's other people like um, I think sometimes, and tell me if you feel this too. I'm going on a tangent, so get ready. Let's go. Business coaches can sometimes feel a little cultish, right? Like they're the like they're the like main person steering. But I feel like, you know, when you're having a baby, like you have your own ideas about your birth and what you're hoping will happen and and all that stuff. But then there's also like a midwife or a doctor and the nurses, and hopefully a partner is there supporting you. And so I I don't know if you've ever thought about this, but like a doula is like part of a whole system. And also I never felt like my doula was like above me necessarily as like like a per like maybe in the in the birthing world, you know, they're there to be like, Oh, why is the nurse saying that? Or like they're pushing this on you. Like, we can like an advocate for you more so than like a I'm gonna tell you how to have a birth, you know?

SPEAKER_02 6:05

Yes. And I feel like the biggest thing that I talk about is like the best way to advocate for yourself is being self-aware. And I help you give yourself permission to like be more self-aware. Like that is the feedback I've gotten from clients, like the permission to be who you are and really own that. Um, and I, you know, I I thought about like business midwife, and then I was like, I think doula has this, it's in the birthing world, but there's also a lot of other platforms I think that use the word doula that don't make it feel too much like just for parents or moms or birthing people.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Well, and I'm a birthing person, so yeah, it resonated with me right away. I had a doula for my first uh and then the second time, to be honest, I was like, my first birth was like 27 hours and ended in a C-section, and the second one, and I had a toddler, a three-year-old at home and husband in the hospital with Crohn's surgeries, and I was just like, Oh my goodness, I'm rescheduled this thing. Like I even talked to my midwife, and I was like, Am I wasting a spot where a hippie could be? Should I just get out of here and like schedule? And she was like, No, let's try it. So I tried it, but I didn't try that hard and I just got that got that um epidural right away, got that C-section. Oh, yeah. But I think it's also because my support team of doulas, my whole life, who my doula was like my roommate in college and stuff. So it was still in the background there, she wasn't actually at the place. But um like like you're saying, um, I don't know that I love the world word empowered, but let me feel like I can make my own decisions on my next on my next kiddo birth. So I like I like the vibe. So thank you. Let's talk about what you just said too, how they're leaning into themselves. And I know you also kind of work with like astrology and different stuff. So tell me more about how you think that you kind of pull out that in them, that they feel comfortable being themselves.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

Yeah, well, I have mostly heard it through um astrology readings specifically, business astrology readings, where they're like, this made me feel so validated and empowered.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

I know that word is like why do people keep ruining words we need? Like authentic, coach, empowered. Like they're actually good words. It's just like some people have used them and then they like.

SPEAKER_02 8:14

I think social media, like love social media, hate social media, you know. Yeah. Um, yeah. So uh I feel like that has been such a powerful tool for self-awareness and for people to own who they are and see themselves in full color, kind of adds like goes with the colorful dress, you know. So, um, but it hasn't just been through astrology. Like astrology is definitely my newer tool that I've been using, but I've also been able to just validate them through saying when they're like, oh, I have to do this. I'm like, no, you don't, no, you don't. Well, who's who's telling you? Who's saying that? Like, let's get back to what you're feeling.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Yes, I love that. I mean, I think that's probably also why you caught my eye. I think we're pretty similar on that um point. I used to be an art teacher, so that like your murals and all the things. Like, I think we just kind of from the same world where you're like, wait, we enter this weird online business world where all these people are telling us what to do, and the artistic rebel in us is like, uh, yeah. I mean, I kind of felt it's divergent. Oh, yes, exactly. I know what to do. And I kind of fell for it at first because you walk into this new world and you're like, well, I'm just like some wacky art lady. I guess I need to learn how to be a business lady. And very quickly, I was like, Ugh, this is awful. This is worse than my worst principle. Like, you guys have to stop with what you're bossing me around with.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

Um I think that wait, that point really quickly is why the coaching industry has felt so scammy because there's so many people out there that being like, you have to do it my exact way, and this is how you get 10k months. And if you don't do it my way, then you will fail. And then they manipulate you into doing that. And that was a huge thing when I first entered coaching in 2020, where like people were falling for that left and right, and like I can't say that I didn't fall for some of it. And then I think we just moved through that, you know, more and more people were being outed.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

And yeah. And then they're also like, oh wait, you did do exactly what I told you, um, and you didn't get the results I promised. Well, you still must have like done something wrong. Like, it's still probably your fault. And you're like, What that's crazy. Um okay, so let I want to talk about what does that look like to do a business astrology?

SPEAKER_02 10:21

Yeah. Okay, so um, it is a I do all of the legwork up front. So you give me your birth data, like your date, your time, your location, and then I pull your chart and I look at a bunch of different placements. So I look at your what I'm calling your business big three, which is your north node, which is like the path, your compass of your evolution kind of vibe, your mid-heaven, which is your impact, and then your Mars, which is your motivation. And I look at those three, and then I dive into your Mercury, your Venus, your Sun, Moon, and then I even go down into like with smaller blurbs, but your rising, your Chiron, your Lil, your Black Moon Lilith, and your Saturn, because all of those placements really line up directly to business situations, like Saturn is boundaries, Venus is your aesthetics, it's your um visual vibe, it's like how you would show up to a brand photo shoot kind of vibe. Um, and I provide them with a right now, it's like a 16-page document of it all listed out very clearly so they can reference it time and time again. Um I did one for myself. And I do, it's like, it's very pretty. Uh and because I'm a graphic designer, so of course it looks pretty and organized. And I had a, I do like a business big three overview. And can I read mine? Yeah, totally. For the for the crowd. Okay. I wrote, you're here to create legacy work with clear structure and deep boundaries. You're here to build a soulful business that holds others, and you move at a grounded, sustainable pace, rooted in values and pleasure. You are not meant to chase, you're here to be the lighthouse, not the lifeboat. And that's like an overarching overview. But then each placement goes into like, okay, here's how your pricing strategy could look like. Here's how your messaging could look like based off of this sign, and then combining it with other signs. So it can be a really helpful document. Yeah. Okay. This is cool.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

So are you also into like, I feel like people love an Enneagram or a human design. Yeah, I do. I do. Okay. Yeah. Um, what's your Enneagram? What's your number?

SPEAKER_02 12:29

I'm a four-wing three.

unknown 12:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

I act like I know what that means.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

I'm a I am the like individualist, the artistic weirdo, but then I have the ambition side of me with the three.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Okay.

unknown 12:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

I'm a seven. I don't know what it is. Yeah. And I am like all in my feelings. I have to feel special because I never felt special as a kid.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

Okay. I do think one time I came up as a four. I think it depends on what day I take the um test. Like someday, like I've because I also with my ADHD always lose my results. And when people are like, what is it? I'm like, I can't remember. And then with human design, I put my birthday in wrong and for the longest time thought I was a projector. And I was like, this is not and you're not feeling me at all. I am a generator, but not a manifesting generator. Because I was sort of disappointed because I thought manifesting generators sounded cooler than just a generator. I was like, what is that? I'm just like a worker, but projector always felt totally off. But I accidentally my birthday is December 9th and I put in 12-12 twice.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

And I was like, whoops. That's so easy to do though, especially if you're like on a phone or just typing away and not thinking. Um, I was just reading today that there was an astrologer on threads, and they were like, someone gave me the wrong birth date, and I did this huge long packet of information. And it's like, what do I do? Like, I now have to go back through and do five to six hours of additional work because they entered in the wrong birth date. And it's like people were like, you gotta just double check. You learn the hard way and then you double check. Yeah. I'm like, oh, they need to pay again.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Which is what I was like to someone else, but not to me. I I would be like, it's fine. Yeah. But for someone else, I'm like, oh hell no, they better pay again. Exactly. Oh my gosh. Okay, well, that brings us to pricing. I also just want to say before we wrap that up, that I think no matter what, and I'm not like sliding the astrology part, but I think the reason people love an Enneagram and a human design, it just goes back to what you're helping people do. Even like when you're saying, oh no, you can make your own rules, like you can do it your own way. I think people still crave structure. So they're like, Are you sure? And when you can point to something in their astrology or like in their Enneagram, then they're like, Oh, okay, that's like the the proof I needed for you to tell me, like, oh, that is me. I can do what I want. So I think it's cool that you like brought those two things together. So you're not just saying, like, you can. People are feeling like, What? How do you know? How can you like they just that's like a safety in um having a 16-page document explain to you why this is what works for you? And then you're like, Yeah, she's right, you know. I bet it's really fun to read. I bet it's so fun to get that from you.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

So fun. And people are just so excited about it. They're like, like one woman was like, I feel like I'm gonna cry. And I was like, that's always the best compliment. Well, because they feel seen, I bet.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

And they feel like the the release of like, oh my gosh, this is me. And you're telling me that I can show up in my business this way. So and also I just want to point out that even though it's like a business astro astrology, the fact that you're just asking the people for their birthday, I work a lot with solopreneurs and I'm always like, it's like you like I know we're not our business in terms of like, oh, that client didn't want to hire me. It's it's about me. It I get that separation, but like really when it comes to branding and like how you show up and how you market, if it's just you doing it, like you were saying, sustainable marketing, like you have to pick stuff that will work for you. Like you are not a machine. So yes, in some ways, I'm like, yes, it's a business, it's not you. But when it comes to all the things we have to do day in and day out, leaning into you and what feels good to you is like 100%. All the hats we wear.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

Yeah.

unknown 16:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:03

Yeah. And it's like your business is a reflection of you. Maybe it's not fully you, but it is a reflection of parts of you.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

Yeah, and it's super, it's way harder to show up when you're like trying to be something you're not. So I love that you're giving people that permission. Thank you. Um, okay, but you also mentioned pricing, and we just talked about the person where I'm like trying to go all hard and act like I would charge them again, even though I know in my heart, if it was me, I would not. Um, that would probably be in my chart. But um, let's talk about pricing. Yeah, let's talk about it.

unknown 16:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

I don't have an official question. It's just I was kind of peeking on your Instagram and I know you have feelings.

SPEAKER_02 16:34

Yes, I do have feelings. I'm like, so take the stage. Okay. So as a muralist and a graphic designer, an artist, a creative, I noticed a lot of people undercharging. I myself undercharged. I started my business in June 2017, and I was like my first mural project was for my partner's business, and I didn't charge anything. They just paid me materials. And um, after about like two years-ish, people started asking me for more and more advice. And I just started seeing the same questions come up of like, how do you charge? I don't know what to charge, I don't know what to like, how to value myself. Um, there was a lot of talk of charger worth at the time. And I uh on tax day, specifically US tax day in 2020, I started holy fuck pricing. And that's what it was called at the time. And it was like my pricing philosophy, and people ate it up because back then it was there, I don't even think reels were a real thing yet. Um, and so like me very publicly sharing real numbers and real stats and just encouraging people to charge their value because I feel like our self-worth an innate thing, and then our business worth is like our the value that we provide. Um, so those are my feelings. Like, I feel like it was all about like fuck the starving artist stereotype kind of thing. And I saw it over and over again, and like I remember switching from journalism to graphic design in college and being so scared to tell my parents because I was like, I want to be an artist essentially, and like what are they gonna say? And luckily they were like, Yeah, this makes sense for you. Like, you've always been that. But those are my feelings. I love it. That I like talking, I've never been scared to talk about money. I've always felt like it was one of those taboo things. I am a millennial. I feel like our whole generation is very like, let's break open the taboo topics. Um, and I feel like money is one of those.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Cool. Um, I love it. I feel like I implied a little bit that we might fight about money, but we didn't because you talked about know your worth or charge your worth, which I am always like, ugh, yeah. Um so I don't know if you can say this real quick, but like what how does it look if you're not just like charging your worth? And then I think sometimes some pricing advice for me goes into like very one-sided. I like that you brought up the value of what you're giving, because I think some advice can turn into like, well, I I only want to work, you know, five hours a week and um I want to make one million dollars. So I'm just gonna charge, I'm just gonna divide one, you know, five, and then that's what I'll charge every client. And I'm always like, well, wait, shouldn't you also look at like your cost of goods and like what you're doing and what you're giving them and what the market can bear? And like like I start acting like I'm in shark tank or something, but I'm like that feels like you're just exploiting the people, like you're just saying, like, this is what I want. I don't really actually care what you're getting. This is what I like, it just seems very one-sided. But then there's the other thing, like the starving artist thing where you're like, I don't you're undercharged, like people pleasing, and like you're feeling I mean, it is hard. It's it's so hard. It's hard. Like we see people. I mean, I see I have clients come from like corporate jobs and they make a bunch of money, but it doesn't feel like it's like coming from a specific person. And so they start feeling weird when you're like, hi, I'm me. I'm gonna do this thing, and it's gonna cost you another person this much. Like, it's a whole different vibe than just like getting a big paycheck from a company, you know? It is. I agree. So I know that's probably a big question for you.

SPEAKER_02 20:01

So no, that's uh yeah, like uh so the way that I kind of break it down is at the end of the day, you're charging for your expertise, your skills, your talent, the hours you're working, and the value to the client, that like ROI. And I think this is much easier when you're talking about business to business services. I think it's very and people undercharge like crazy in those fields. And I think that's where my specialty mostly lies. But I also am like, okay, you're an aesthetician and you're charging$50 for a facial. Is that even covering your materials? Is that even covering your time? Is that right? Like, like what else, who else is in the industry charging this? What are they charging? Like market research kind of vibes. So a lot of it is making people look at their pricing in a new light with number-backed strategy. So I one of my biggest tips is like track, like track the hours you're spending on a project, track the materials, look at your expenses, like how much do you have to pay for your subscriptions for the year, right? Those kinds of things.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

Yeah. Oh my gosh, an artist who likes data numbers. I do, I do. You're I don't love all of it. You're called artists though.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

Like I don't love all of it, but I just love the business side, which I think is why I like coaching so much more. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

And if you want to stay in business, you gotta make money. Like now I still sound like I'm in Shark Tank. I'm Mr. Wonderful all of a sudden. And I'm like, we need the money. But really, I mean, I um went to school for art education, which is funny because I was originally majoring in photography. My parents were like, you need a real job, which I'm like, oh yeah, a teacher. Great, great way to go. Like, I could be working for some Richmond like ad agency and making a million dollars. Yeah. Uh but no, I wanted to go the safe route via teacher. Teacher. Um, you know, and I did have like side hustle photography for a long time and just set so many people undercharge there because they just think, oh, well, it's cool. I'm getting like$150 for this one hour photo shoot. And it's like what about the editing? Like also like just your camera. Like you're already in the hole. Yes. So much from your camera. Like, and not that one shoot is gonna pay for your whole camera, but they just like it was just weird to see them completely disregard any spending that they were doing. I don't, you know. I think we just uh you know. It's scary. It's scary to look at numbers. And I used to avoid numbers like crazy. And then um it is kind of like once you start paying attention, you do want to pay attention more because you're like, oh wait, what? Okay, we need to really pay attention to this. So I love that. I love that you're artsy and fun, but also like paying attention to important things. So I love it. That's why you're a cool person doing cool things. Thank you. I'll take that. I'll receive that. Also, I just have to say, because in the middle of our interview, I noticed it and I was like, Deanna, cool your jets. You are wearing a Spice Girl t-shirt right now.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

I am wearing a Spice Girl t-shirt. I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. I love the Spice Girls. I had their poster on my wall as a kid.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Um, well, I'm a little older than you. We talked about that before in the show. Yes. I was the editor-in-chief of my high school yearbook. Thank you very much. Um graphic design early on. But um, oh my god. I'm also like back when we like printed our own photos and like marked them with grease pencils. Like, y'all, that's that's how old I am. But um we had a big Spice Girl poster in the yearbook office because I love the Spice Girls. Um and I would have gone to see them, but Ginger like quit right before their tour in America in the 90s, you know?

SPEAKER_02 23:22

And I was like, Did you know that they're coming to the sphere this year in LA in Las Vegas? No. Okay. Are we gonna plan a business retreat? Hold on. Yeah, right. I'm pretty sure. Let's fact check that. But someone told me, because I was wearing this shirt and they were like, Oh my god, did you hear that there's a rumor? And then I think I saw it online after that. I'm pretty sure. Were you just their 30th anniversary or something?

SPEAKER_01 23:47

I mean, it makes sense. Yeah, but I thought they couldn't get posh on board. This is sounding familiar to me, also, but did they finally get her?

SPEAKER_02 23:54

Maybe it's just that it was like in the works. I don't know. I don't know if they did, because she's on a whole different trajectory.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

Yeah. Anyways, okay.

SPEAKER_02 24:02

Wait, who was your favorite spice girl? Jin Who's your mine was I loved baby spice. I was a kid. I was like seven. Yeah. And then I loved Posh Spice, I think, because the inner like rebel in me was like, I was like good girl, but like secretly I'm like my Scorpio moon and like my like so it's like I have a dark side.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

And then my seven was like, I'm ginger spice. Yes. And those like Chuppa Chupps, lollipops, or whatever. I feel like I would get those a lot in high school. And they like had stickers.

unknown 24:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Yeah. Anyways, you were seven. I was 17. It's fine. Totally normal for me. Tell everybody, calm down. Um, anyways. Oh my gosh. Well, this was so fun. Thank you so much for hanging out here. I hope even though you're on threads, are you also on Instagram some? Like they're I am. Yeah. Okay. Yep. So if I stay on Instagram, then yeah. Why did I go? We'll stay connected. What was I thinking? Okay. All right. Well, I'll see you over there on oh wait, and tell the people where they can hang out with you.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

Oh, yeah. Okay. So um thecolorfolddress.com and then Instagram and threads at the Colorful Dress.

unknown 24:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

Perfect. Super easy. All right.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

Well, we're friends now, so I guess we're going to the sphere later um this year and I'll talk to you soon. I love it.

unknown 25:06

Bye.