Building a Business Without Social Media with Seth Werkheiser

I’m talking to Seth Werkheiser from Social Media Escape Club about getting off social media, building simple websites, and finding a better way to connect with people online.

In this episode:

2:36 Building simple websites from scratch
5:06 Why simple websites feel empowering
8:17 My rant about long sales pages
14:06 Seth’s social media history and leaving
17:35 How he gets clients without social

Hang out with Seth:
https://socialmediaescape.club/

Hang out with Deanna:
https://deannaseymour.com
https://jointheplayhouse.com
https://instagram.com/thedeannaseymour

🪩 Join my FREE community with tons of fun events + 200+ creative business owners at jointheplayhouse.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Welcome to another episode of Cool People Doing Cool Things where I interview cool people doing cool things. Today I'm talking to Seth Workheiser from Social Media Escape Club. And he helps creative people get off social media. So you know, when I met him, I was like, yeah, you're cool because we do, we do this, we work with the same people trying to free them from the same systems. So hi Seth, how's it going?

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Hello, Deanna. Uh, it's going well. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

I am so excited. So I met you through Lex Roman, right? We went to a Lex Legends uh networking thing. We're in a breakout room, and you actually were talking about making simple websites or what how what do you call it?

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Oh, simple websites. Oh, is that what you call it? Oh, plain lo-fi HTML websites, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Well, can I just tell you that it it did bring me straight back to sixth grade, Mr. Thompson's class. I feel like we all in sixth grade you had to do like a rotation of different things so you could figure out like what you liked. Like we had to do shop, you know, we had to do music, drama, art, and we had to do like coding. Like I definitely was like typing. Is that what you're talking about?

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Like you have to do like a backspace and a we coded backslashes and line break tags. Yeah, we did that.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

That's okay. But is that how you do your websites? Is that what you're talking about?

SPEAKER_00 1:47

No. Oh, okay. I mean, look, I I mean I have a WordPress site that a friend set up for me. I've been using WordPress since like it came out in 2004 or five or whatever that was. Okay. Um, but like I'm really interested in I make single paid sites then. So I made a site for my my the my music project, all HTML and just a bit of CSS. And I uploaded that to a simple free web host called Infinity Free, I think. It sounds like such a scam, but it works. I don't know. It's a it's a secure site, it has a a back-end like you know, file manager like the old days, the control panel stuff. It just works and it's free. And so I've that's the stuff I'm talking about. Like we can make you know, sites that do the job that they need to do and can be simple and cost nothing.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

Okay, okay. So I like this. So WordPress is like too hard for me in my head. Like I'm like, oh my gosh. So when you help people make a simple site, what do they use? Do they use WordPress? Like, I don't even understand. Like, you have to help. You have to talk to me like I have no idea. Like I'm in Mr. Thompson's class.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

That's what we did, yeah, last month, and we're doing it again later this month. Um, we literally got on a Zoom call and we talked, we just talked through it. Like, okay, open notepad on your computer. Type HTML. I put up on the screen, like, type this in and type that. Now save it. Okay, now you have the file on your desktop, drag it into your browser. Oh, look, it's a website. Like you made a web, like so that's what we did. Oh my gosh. Yeah, and so the easiest way to get people started in it because a lot of people are like, Well, well, I have WordPress, I have a Squarespace, and it does this, it does that. But everybody understands what a link tree site is, the link in bio thing. Yeah, just a list, yeah, and with those sites are like they got a bunch of CSS and they're buttons and they're this, they're that. We're gonna do that. And so that's what we've that's what we've been doing. We've we've been slowly this last time we just kind of made a very bare bones one, but we were like, you know, in the HTML, like, look, here's where the color is, and here's a website with all the other colors. Put them in, just try it, you know, and and people did. And we we uploaded them on and we looked at each other's websites and we troubleshooted them. That link doesn't work, and then because it's the web, we could look at their source, which is like magic, but that's what the whole internet is built on the the source code, and we helped people like fix their links and stuff like that. It was great, and it was it was all just a bunch of like people uh like you were saying, like, oh, I haven't done this since the MySpace days, you know, and it was just a lot of fun of like getting people back to doing these basic core fundamental things, like almost primitive. I think someone called it primitive, uh, in in in the in the chat of like, you know, because it's it is it's just this raw, very basic code. And we did it, and it was empowering, and yeah, we're gonna do it again. I can't wait to keep I I can't wait to keep doing it because like I usually don't I've never repeated like a quote unquote workshop that I've done. But I'm I'm like, we're doing this again. This is too fun. More people need to hear this, more people need to feel this and like walk away with like a clone thing, a link tree clone. Like, let's go, let's just do this.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

I love it. Okay. So I had a bunch of questions pop up, but I'm working on being a good listener. So now I'm forgetting my own questions because I was doing a good job listening. But why do you think well, first of all, I guess the art teacher in me is like that's cool. It's like your medium, right? Like they're actually making the site. I think that's what like why are why do you think people are feeling so empowered by this? Like, what do you think is the magic?

SPEAKER_00 5:41

Because all we've been doing is logging in and and and trying to fit, you know, the round peg into the square hole. Yes. You and I have both seen enough Squarespace template sites that they all look the same. You can see them be like, look, I know this person's not the uh the this, but they're using that template and they're fitting their images in there and it looks like, yeah, okay, and the font's different, okay. But but like so much of that is just like I just don't like the square spacification of everything.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

And yeah, so that's why I think people feel good about it, is that we're not able to like replace the Squarespace site tomorrow, but wait a second, I know kind of the underpinnings of how this is now put together.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Mm-hmm. I wonder, like, so what's the use case? Like you mentioned Linktree. So if I make this simple site, do you think eventually it could replace my site? Is this like a Linktree site? Like, what's the use case for what you're creating?

SPEAKER_00 6:39

I I think if it goes from Linktree, I think you could make a sales page next. Um we've probably seen plenty of people use like notion for sales pages, that kind of stuff. Like, maybe we get to a point where we make where we just hand code it. Yeah. You know, where we make it and and and we make it exactly how we want it to look. Like the the the notion, don't get me wrong, it's brilliant. It's set up nice, it's responsive and all that stuff, but like I don't know, wouldn't it be neat to just make a thing from scratch how I want it to look? And so I think it that could be the progression. I don't think again, I don't think tomorrow we'll replace a Squarespace site, but like after a bit of time, like it's it's just code, it's just modules. We can like when you're dealing with text of this kind of stuff of code, it's copy and paste. So now you're just like, well, this is on the right, I want it on the left. Oh wait, I could just copy and paste and move that here and oh wow, that okay, I could do that. Like it we could do hard things, is is the thing I'm trying to get back to. And when we get into it, and especially doing it together, and that's what I'm trying to do on these these Zoom calls, is like anything you do on these things and like oops, I messed up. Guess what? It's HTML, we've been doing this for 30 or whatever years. You you've you cannot make a mistake that someone else hasn't made a thousand times before. And you're with people on this call, and we're gonna help you fix it. Like, and so so I think it's that trying to bring those two things together of like, let's try to build this stuff together instead of constantly trying to be like, Well, I guess I have to log into Link Tree and do this thing all by myself. Like, no, let's have fun with it.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Yeah. Do you think, and maybe I don't know, I'm going like off the rails a little, but um I feel like because you mentioned sales pages, so it just like brought up a mini rant in me. I just feel like sales pages and websites and stuff are getting so big and so long, too. I'm always like enormous. Is anyone reading that? Like, I'm not usually by the time I go to a sales page, I'm like, I want to buy the thing, which I know we maybe probably need more than just a button and a headline, but I'm definitely a first. I'm I'm an above the fold button pusher. And I know there are people who read the things, but I don't know if it's just like the industry I'm in or the circles I hang in, but these long form sales pages.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

I would say you said it yourself. I'm above the fold. I go into that thing because I know what that person does. I'm buying it. I don't care. Same for me. I will but I but I think I think it's a trust thing. The trust that we built. Like there are people that we both know that they could send a Google Doc with a PayPal button on it. Yes, I'm I'm I'm I'm signing up because we built that trust. We trust them now. I don't know that a that an 18-page sales page builds trust. I think I think the trust comes way before someone clicks on your sales page.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Yeah, I almost feel like an 18-page, like a long ass sales page makes me start to be like, um, this feels like it's getting a little questionable. Like this feels like you're doing too much. It's a little, it's a little pick-me energy sometimes where I'm like, oh my god, calm down. Like if I wanted it, I would get it. Simmer down, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Is that right? Yeah, there well, and also too, it's a lot of like, well, everybody else does it this way. So I I have to do it this way. But there's a lot of people teaching that this is this is how you do it, this is how it converts. Make the button blue, make the you know, uh get get this X. Oh my goodness, the whole like, oh, here's how you get testimonials and this and that. It's just like uh like there's just so much, so much of the map that a lot of people are following, and like it's scary and dangerous to do it any other way, but like I think that's part of trust building because yeah, people are tired of other ways of doing it. Not saying those people are going out of business or whatever. Fine, they got I'm doing it this way, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

And well, yeah, and what you're saying too, like I don't really market to like cold traffic, so maybe if anybody's listening who's like, I need to build trust with a million scrolls down, okay, fine. But it like like what you're saying. I my clients usually come from my email, like they've already been hanging out with me for a hot second, so it's totally, totally.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Yeah, the the first thing people I don't know, yeah, you you you don't ask to get married on a first date, right? Like you can't write, like yeah, you gotta he's into all this stuff, like take it slow. Like a person needs to be like in your orbit for a long time in so many different things, whether it's I I hate that I use the term getting married, but just like uh of asking for a job or this or that or asking to be in the band or whatever, like yeah, like come to one show.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Hey, you guys are cool. Can I be in the band?

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Yeah, uh that that's that's a great point. Yeah, the musician thing, like, hey, I take photos. Can I take your photos? Yo, chill, man. I I don't know who you are. Who are you? Like, take me on tour, take me on tour. Who are you? Like, yeah, there's a lot of that trust building, it takes time.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Yes. Well, I was gonna say too, with all the long sales pages, I do kind of feel like a simple like I think it would be like a little disruptor and exciting and refreshing for a visitor to stumble upon it. And I do think there is a certain level of confidence with like being like, this is my thing. Do you want it or not? Like, I'm not gonna give you a hundred scrolls of testimonials and a million FAQs and a like I don't know. Am I crazy? I just think if you if you land on that, you'd be like, oh my gosh, I can breathe on this sales page. Like, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

I I think there's room for delight on the web. Yeah. And there's not a lot of delight out there. There's a lot of things that make us roll our eyes. I felt someone linked up um in an email thread that I'm on. They linked up this amazing like live stream website, but it's not live stream, it's actually audio from near streams and in parks and stuff like that, with lit little photos, not big exp. And I was like, this is a delight. And I I clicked in the main page and there's like hundreds of them. So I could just click through here and like here's this park in whatever where whatever country, and I can listen to it. That's delightful. And like, so for me, that's a delight. For someone else, whatever, they don't want that, but like oh my god, it's it takes it, it takes a minute to delight me as someone who's been on the web forever. Um, oh my goodness, this is great. So, yeah, I think I think providing a delightful experience, like a one-page website of your sales page with maybe a button and your photo, and like eh, we're doing this next Tuesday, that could be enough.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

Yeah. And refreshing to some people. So wait, I'm just asking a clarifying question about what you just described. So you would be like turn that on, and then you would hear like the birds and people walking by and like um sounds of like chitter chatter.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Yep, just the ambient sound of the little park.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

I love that. Can you send me that link too?

SPEAKER_00 14:03

I will, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

I love that. Um, yeah, I think what did you just call it? Delight. Delight. I think that's exciting. And I think probably we can talk for a few minutes about um when you were you ever on social media? When'd you get off? Like, I feel like speaking of finding delight, I don't think we're really finding it on social media.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Was I on social media? I was one of the first 3,000 people to sign up for Twitter. Okay, I was like user number 27 something. 2700. Yeah. I love Twitter. I loved it so much. I was such an advocate. I even did heavy metal trivia on Twitter from 2011 through 2018. I would post metal trivia questions and people, metal heads from all over the world would reply, and we'd have these fun discussions all right there on Twitter. I loved it. And that experience built on on to to to new things and and other opportunities and stuff. So it helped launch things for me, like where I'm at today. So I owe a lot, yeah, to to Twitter primarily, but it was a different place, you know. 2006 Twitter was a lot different than 2016 Twitter, as we can imagine. Um, and then 2019, 20, so I finally deleted my account, I think, in 21 or 22 or something like that. Maybe it was even later. Because even I was apprehensive of like, well, I might need this someday. Uh, but no, I eventually deleted that and all of them. I was on Instagram, I definitely had a Facebook account. Uh, I had a LinkedIn account, deleted that too. I've been there, I've seen it, you know, and just the the return on investment wasn't there for me. Like it was just like, I don't want to spend my time here doing this, spinning my wheels. I I've did the the the the LinkedIn game, and boy, I got on a lot of lame discovery calls from that. Hey, I want to pick your brain about this. I was like, uh, it was just like because I was I was still trying to talk about email newsletters and stuff like that. I was I I was talking about that even on social media. That's and that's how I started my newsletter from Twitter. It's like, hey guys, I'm starting a newsletter, like let's go over here and do this. And I had like 2,600 followers, and I think I got 19 people from that. It's like, okay, 19. That's it. And you've probably heard tales of I have six figure followers on Instagram and only got 4,000 to subscribe. Well, those are your 4,000. And that's how I took it. I had 19 people when I started Substack in 2021, and I was like, all right, buckle up, this is what we're doing. Like, yeah. So yeah, the social media was a big part of how I got started.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Yeah. And so that's interesting. So you are you're like completely off. Because I feel like I'm a shit talker, but I'm still hanging out a little. I'm dabbling. I haven't cut the cord completely. Um but I do miss the days like, do you remember? I mean, you're saying 2006, Twitter. I feel like I was maybe like trying Twitter back then, but it just wasn't my thing. I'm more visual, and I was like, what am I even taught? I'm just like, I'm much more funny and I'm funnier in person. Like, I can't write 140, like I can't work in this format. So then I would like leave and then I would like try it again because everybody loved it. And then I was like, mm. But then Instagram, early Instagram, when you would scroll and it would be like you're all caught up. I loved that Instagram. It was like just my friends. It wasn't like ads, wasn't anything. And then I think I'm just like probably like you when you weren't deleting Twitter yet. You know what I mean? I'm like, uh, I don't know. Maybe I'll just hang out in stories. Let's do this. Like, um, so let me ask you this. How do you get new people when you're not on social? How can you even do anything not being on social media at all?

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Uh, by doing cool stuff with cool people, just like this.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

I went, you know, I did I did that Lex Roman, you know, uh mixer thing. Yep. And I met interesting people on there, and you and I connected, and now we're talking, and now a few people that listen to this from your podcast are gonna be like, Who's this stuff guy? They're gonna click over. And a couple of them are gonna be like, This is cool, and they're gonna subscribe and whatever. And I just keep doing that over and over again. Like I reach out and try to get people to uh to do like say Substack Lives with me. Come on my we'll do a live stream together. And so now when that's out, you know, they tell people, oh, next Tuesday I'm talking live with so and so. Um, so then when that's out, I put that on my website, they tell their friends this, that, and the other. And I do that. I try I I literally try to do that week after week after week, like 50 weeks a year. Like, let's get on a podcast, let's do a live, let's do a live stream over and over again. And yeah, that that's how I do it. Like I've I have a stamina and energy for it. I could because I absolutely love talking about this. If no one read a single word of what I write from now till I depart this earth, I'm still going to write it. I love talking about this stuff. If no one shows up on a video, a live stream or whatever, and I'm talking to myself, and I've done it, I will keep doing it because I I just love talking about this stuff so much.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

You know what's funny is I'm just guessing, maybe that people listening are like, oh my God, that sounds like so much work. I'm just gonna stick with social media. I'm making that up. I do that. I'm very good at writing my own stories about what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

No, no, no. They're saying that.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

They're saying that um, but like, because it sounded like the way you framed it, and I love your honesty because you framed it like, you know, a couple people are gonna listen, a couple people might click over a couple people, but you know what? The same things, even though there's billions of people on the platform, if people listening are really honest with themselves, they're only getting a couple people to act, like you said, how many people, and then 19 joined the substack. Like, there's this perception that we're reaching billions of people, and we're fucking not. Like it's it's just the lure of like, well, I gotta go on Instagram because that's where all these people are. And they're like actually not seeing your stuff or engaging with it or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Hear it all the time. Where's my top of funnel if I'm not on social media? Have you tried billboards? And that always gets people to laugh. Billboards, that's ridiculous. It's like, okay, okay, that's just one other way. Yeah, one other way. Podcasts, direct mailing, uh, you know, community events. Like, there's a million and one ways to do this stuff. And my big thing too for people is like, uh don't just take Seth's advice. Don't, don't, don't be like, oh, I'm gonna go try to get on podcast now. My biggest thing is talk to cool people, talk to good people, listen to this podcast. The people that are on this podcast are are are great, interesting people. Reach out to them, talk to them. And my biggest thing is, and I I'll go to the grave with this, is like spending an hour a week talking on a Zoom call with other people that are trying to do the same thing, whether it's a paid offering or it's just a private little whatever, that's gonna do more for you than spending six hours a week on social media. Because you're going to get the real energy and and knowledge and wisdom and support you need to keep doing this stuff because it's hard doing it alone. And like you it's just so much easier to figure this all out, like with other people that are along for the ride. I I made my whole way to this, I didn't do this solo. My first music blog in 2001, it took off because I had five or six or seven volunteer writers working with me. You know, every step of the way I had people like hopping on board that wanted to be a part of this and stuff, or I asked and like, hey, can you help out with it? You gotta do it with other people.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

Yeah. Okay. That's actually making me think too about the playhouse, the like event space that I run.

SPEAKER_02 22:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Because we were just talking the other day um about event attendance. And I was saying, I think sometimes like the smaller the event, like everybody wants big, like you want a bunch of people there because you're gonna like. meet so many people and make so many connections, but I feel like the bigger the crowd gets, like you know, I hate to do this because we already talked about getting married and like so cliche and I've already complained to you about running club and my children. So like I'm not trying to be that lady. But people do often say at their wedding they're bummed out because they don't actually get to like talk to everyone or see everyone. Like all these people come from out of town is this big thing and then you're just running around like trying to like be excited that you're getting married and then you're just pulled in a million different directions as opposed to like having coffee with a friend or like two or three friends. So we were like literally we as you were talking I'm like oh my God this is what we were saying like a smaller hangout and like lots of little like it sounds like you're having lots of little hangouts that are having a bigger effect.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Instead of trying to talk to a billion people on a platform and just like check it off your list and be like boom nailed it and made a reel it's going to go out to billions of people you're like having small conversations with lots of people absolutely in the website discussion uh I spoke with a photographer and was like with their website and and it always comes up well not a lot of people go to my website and it's like you don't need a lot of people you need four creative directors to go to it this month. Can you email can you find four creative directors in the world that could maybe check out your work because they're the ones that are going to hire you. They can write you a check anyone can like your your post you can't invoice for that.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Yeah well and sometimes even like with SEO and then we're really going off the rails I'm gonna wrap it up soon but I just think you're so interesting so that's why you're a cool person on this cool podcast. But like even with SEO sometimes I'm like well if people are just coming to this blog post that I wrote and like reading it and going somewhere like that doesn't actually like it feels cool when I log in I'm like dang this blog is getting so much traffic but if it's not turning into clients then like it's not that cool.

SPEAKER_00 24:17

It's still kind of cool but right to your point the numbers like whatever the numbers are if one one person emailing you could change your life the the right person the one person like so so yeah with back to your point of like you have a thousand followers and you push it push it out and only like no no no like the four or five people on a zoom call week in week out consistently it goes so far. Goes so far.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

Oh my gosh. Okay. Well this was super fun. I have to tell the people tell the people where they can hang out with you. I mean I'm gonna link it all in the show notes but if you want to like say stuff this is your time to shine.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

Oh oh the now see this is normally where people would rattle off you can find me on Instagram on I know I'm like what are you gonna say you guys get to say you go to social media escape.club and that's my website and you uh it's a blog that I have uh material on there so going back to 2021 sign up for the newsletter and there we go I'm on the newsletter the last one was really good talking about um repurposing your stuff from like years ago reminder great reminder someone heard Led Zeppelin for the first time today I know there's a chance I love that you said that there's a chance that they don't know what the heck you posted last week.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

So as an art teacher I was always like all these art teachers were all talking about Van Gogh and Picasso like this we gotta get like contemporary art and we need to teach these but I'm like no wait these kids have never heard of Picasso like it's gonna be super cool like they've never seen these things. So even though I think it's like cliche and like but we're talking about six year old like you don't know about Picasso yet buddy you know what I mean like so just remember yeah yeah I love that when I read that Led Zeppelin line I was like yes that's exactly how I used to feel so cool yeah all right you guys hang out with Seth he's amazing thank you so much for hanging out with me thank you Deanna appreciate it bye all