Grief and Hope - #012

This episode may hit different. We're encouraged to be hopeful, but we often miss the importance of grieving in healthy ways. 

We share our story about loss and grief, but how we found hope through it all. It's not always picture perfect (hardly ever), but leaning on eaach other and learning what faith really means has grown us closer together and to God. We hope our story is a reminder that God walks with you, even when life isn't fair. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hey, I'm Nick.

SPEAKER_05 0:02

And I'm Ashley, and this is Between Us.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

So whenever I think of the Christian faith, the first verse that comes to mind is John 3.16. Yeah. And a lot of people know that verse by heart, and we recite it all the time in messages.

SPEAKER_06 0:32

It's one of the first verses we taught our kids.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Absolutely. And this one we go back to all the time. Uh however, today we thought it would be more appropriate to start with this verse, uh, John 16 33. Jesus says, I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world, you will have trouble, but take heart. I have overcome the world. It is perfect for today because we're going to spend time more about uh the topic of grief and hope. Yeah. And is uh this is a a tough topic. It's also an encouraging topic. Um, it is one that uh we have dealt with throughout our our entire relationship. And really every one of us, we've dealt with grief and hope in multiple ways throughout our lives. Yeah. So we just want to share our story and um how our relationship has uh both struggled and overcome a lot of things. And uh I do want to just before we get into everything, just forewarning, we are gonna be talking about loss and struggle, um, uh our difficulties in pregnancy, uh miscarriages. So I just so everyone is aware what what this episode is going to get into, it's important for us to be able to share this. And it is also important for you to know who's listening and uh what kind of what kind of stuff we're gonna get into. Yeah. Um, Ashley, just from the very beginning, I know that you and I have gone through a lot and we could just jump right into everything. Uh, because you and I, we've been able to talk through this quite a bit through our our relationship. But what comes to mind for you when when we start thinking about uh discussing grief and hope?

SPEAKER_06 2:14

Uh well, the older that we get, and the more life experiences that we have, I I feel like we we are learning that we can carry both at the same time. That it's not always um it's not always hopeful and wonderful and you know, tidied up and and perfect that we actually will carry disappointment and hurt and suffering and pain at the same time as like there is still a hope that Jesus has overcome the world and that he is working all things together for the good of those who love him. Yeah. You know, there's in I think that the older that we get and the more experiences that we go through, we have learned that to be very, very true. Um, and that has I know for me, uh I think when I was younger, I thought things needed to look a certain way and be a certain way, and I was gonna be in control of it. And then I learned I'm actually not. So um, yeah, that's that's one of the first things that comes to mind is that both are true. Yeah. This is difficult, I am hurting, there's pain here, but I also still believe that God is good.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Yeah, I think that it is almost unnatural to talk like God is still good even in the midst of grief. And I think it's uncomfortable even for sure. Yeah, not just as believers, just in general, whenever grieving is a part of your life to think like that good is still there. Right. And so, you know, as a believer, to think God is still good in the midst of why even while I'm in the state of grieving almost feels wrong. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 4:01

Um it's hard to explain.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

It is, and and I don't think that we can maybe perfectly do that, but I think it's a very real experience that I like this isn't good. I mean, God is so good, but right now this is really difficult. Yeah. And an encouragement is remember that he's good. Experience your grief. But remember that he's good.

SPEAKER_06 4:27

Yeah, I think a lot I think a lot of people just don't know how to grieve. Yeah. And I I mean, I'm not saying that uh from a oh well, I've got this figured out. I definitely don't because it still will like grief is so funny because it comes in waves almost like you know, we're gonna get into our story a little bit and our experience, but um I still will have moments where it will hit me and I'm like, oh, you know, like it is it is like a wave of like I experienced that, yeah, that loss, and that is that's all very, very real. Um but it's it's just different over time. And um, and just to preface this, like we're not counselors, we're not, you know, yeah, this is a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

We're not professionals, this is just our life experience.

SPEAKER_06 5:17

Exactly. Um but I will say that it has been a grace from God that over the years I'm learning how to grieve in a healthier way than just completely not grieving at all, not feeling anything at all, and just trying to get out of the discomfort as fast as possible and not uh because I truly I just don't think we know what to do with it. I think a lot of us just don't know what to do with it. Yeah. Um and it comes out in a lot of different ways.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

But the immediate response from from me is I've gotta fix this. Whatever's happening, I've got to I've gotta fix it. I remember there was a coworker of mine. I came to work, and I remember I like she wasn't acting herself. And I saw her like she was in the break room, I was in the break room, and I s and I she was just sad. And for some reason, I decided to say, Hey, what why aren't you smiling? That's what I said. Oh boy. And it the response I wanted to get was, oh, thanks for acknowledging me. Yes, I can, but it was that was not the response. And it was such a big eye opener. That was years ago. Years ago. It was a big eye-opener because it was hostile. Oh and I was like, you don't basically you don't understand what people are going through, was the lesson learned there. Yeah. And um, I think it's important for that lesson to be learned, and it's gonna have to be learned in different ways by different people. But for me, it was a matter of you know, grief and sadness and difficulties can't be fixed by somebody coming in who's not experiencing it.

SPEAKER_06 6:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Um, even though you want it, that was a good intention.

SPEAKER_06 7:00

Like, I'm I'm just trying to trying to be kind here, like trying to turn the situation around.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

But you can't fix the situation, you know, uh just by getting involved. Um so I think it's important though to understand the story that somebody is going through. So I think it that maybe this is the best way to do it. Do you mind starting us off and just sharing our story?

SPEAKER_06 7:23

Yeah. So we um we were married for about five years before we decided we were ready to start having a family.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 7:31

And um, I like to whenever I share this with people, I I like to tell them that, you know, even early on, now we got married at 19 and 20.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 7:42

And so we were very young. And my mom, she um she ran daycares and did lots of children's programming and and all of that. I had that growing up. And I was like, I don't want to have kids. I didn't want to have kids at first. Right. Um, and that was something that you know we got in, we talked about, but we I don't know if we handled that the best. We just kind of kept moving forward, like, we'll cross that bridge when we get there, I guess. But I do distinctly remember um when I kind of it's like a light bulb, honestly. Like I felt this this desire to be a mom. And um so we naturally just started like following the protocol from the doctor, and you know, just um I thought this is gonna be easy. Like I'm gonna get pregnant fast. Now we start a family. Now this is this is the next step, right? Like thinking that we're actually in control of it. Um and we did end up getting pregnant. Um, and then I had my first miscarriage. And I it was around Mother's Day. I remember um it was around Mother's Day we had we had announced it to your family and my family. And um, I remember taking a picture with a group of family on this pretty little dock area, and everybody's pointing at my belly, and then uh just a probably like a week later, I found out that I was miscarrying this child. So um devastated. I was devastated. And um that just started the pursuit of trying to figure out like Yeah, what's our what's going on here?

SPEAKER_00 9:39

What's our next steps here? Yeah, what do we do?

SPEAKER_06 9:41

Yeah, so um more doctors appointments, trying to figure things out. I remember sitting in the the doctor's appointment and her telling me just some stuff that she had seen in my lab work, and um, of course they try to tell you, you know, like this this happens, this this is normal. And a lot of women experience this and it just but that doesn't really help. It didn't help me, you know. Um and then, you know, just proceeded to tell me, like, well, you're if we can if you can lose weight and you can do these things, um you're more likely to get pregnant. So then I automatically just felt like okay, well then I'm the problem. I'm gonna have to fix this. And so then that just became like this uh my body became more of an object at that point of just, you know, I've got to fix this. I've got to fix my body. And so then I became obsessive with trying to be healthy and taking the medications and doing all the things that um, you know, I thought was right in order to get pregnant. Ended up having to do some fertility medications. We did get pregnant with our first. Um, and I remember even early on in that pregnancy just having um scares and struggles. And um but we we did, we had our first, and it was a miracle. And he he was full term, well, almost full term. I he was early, but it it was still within a window where he um we were able to deliver him via C-section. And so um I I do uh remember just feeling so much fear, so much anxiety. I've mentioned in previous episodes, like I struggled a lot with like postpartum depression and stuff like that. Um and I did specifically with our first uh crippling fear and um depression and anxiety. And I think a lot of it stemmed from that initial loss of you know, um something did not go the way that I thought it should go. Yeah, and I had no way to control it.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

Talk do you mind talking a little bit about from when we lost the first when we lost our first one? I mean, when you find that out and that I I guess the emotion of grief, but then the process of it, did it happen? I don't even know.

SPEAKER_06 12:23

I I really don't even know. I I felt like I went straight into fixing mode and white knuckling the whole process because I I didn't know how to grieve, I think.

SPEAKER_00 12:37

You know, that's weird because I remember that now that you say it. It was almost like even leaving the doctor's office, it was a matter of okay, okay, well then this is what we need to do.

SPEAKER_06 12:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_06 12:50

It was a it was a here's your here's your steps of things that you're gonna do. And buddy, I took that list and I went crazy.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 12:57

I I did. I I really got obsessive about a lot of stuff because and then again, I just believing that like this shouldn't be difficult, right? Like I'm watching other women just get pregnant all the time. It was so hard. But that's that's not the whole story. I mean, we we did, we had our first child, and um, you know, about two years into it, we were like, we would we would like to have another baby.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

Right.

SPEAKER_06 13:26

And so then that started the journey all over again of trying to get pregnant and have more kids. And um, that's where I felt like things really went off the rails because between um between our first and second child, we had six miscarriages. Yeah. And so there was just this like roller coaster of time that I I just didn't even feel like myself, but I was so obsessed. I was, like I said, white knuckling the entire process. I remember my doctor wasn't doing what I wanted my doctor to do and giving me the answers I wanted, couldn't give me answers.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Right.

SPEAKER_06 14:08

And so we we went and found, you know, help in a different area. And we were doing fertility, uh, more fertility medications and things just like I got to a point where I was just so amped up and and worked up and stressed to the max about everything, all while still trying to raise, you know, a toddler.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 14:31

And um, and at war with my body because my body wasn't doing what it was created to do, and something was wrong with it. Um, and maybe you can chime in here too, because I know I'm talking a lot from like my experience, but like you're you were very much a part of that, and you saw me. Yeah, you saw me go through it, but you were also grieving in your own ways. And I don't again, we were so young and we were um I don't know that we knew how I was gonna say in a healthy way, so we just kept pushing. And I think a lot of people do that.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

I think a lot of what I experienced during during all that was just the desire to make everything okay. Yeah. And it was uh I mean, one thing that I remember is just like you mentioned toward the end, like here we are now with a toddler who's we also are responsible for, we're supposed to make memories with. Yeah. And yet we're also going through this grief process often. And what's wild is whenever you are, you know, you're you're given the hey, there's possibly another child on the way, that's supposed to be exciting. Yeah, but by terrifying by the third, you know, miscarriage, you're thinking, what is going on? Are we gonna have to do this again? Yeah, that really started happening for me. I I started almost like I didn't want to think that we were going to get pregnant anymore. Because I was tired of seeing that happen and being disappointed. Yeah. And I do remember there was a I I think of this was a big pi pivotal moment for myself. Was I think it was not after it was after the second miscarriage that we experienced that um so that fourth technically pregnancy that we had, I thought the Lord had told me that this baby was going to come. Like he's gonna, she's he or she was gonna make it. And so I verbalized it, I said it out loud, and I told you that I felt like the Lord said, like, we're this one's this is okay. This one's gonna be okay. And it wasn't, but maybe a week or two afterward that we learned there was a miscarriage. And so in in that instance, I remember very vividly the Sunday after that, because I was basically questioning my faith in general. Um, and in looking back now, it was probably more of a I'm taking control in a bigger way. I'm I'm putting this to uh the test, basically. Um, but I will never forget that the following or that Sunday after all of that happened, the first song that was being sung in that worship service was He Gives and Takes Away. Oh yeah. Um I was both devastated and relieved at the same time because what God really showed me in that moment was hey, you're not in control. Yeah, and you don't have to be. You don't have to fix this, and you don't have to get it right. Um, I'm the one in control here. And I know that you're hurting. And uh I know how to fix this situation better than you do. Yeah. And there's some things that just need to happen. And so that was really eye-opening. And I can't say that I never had a problem from there on.

SPEAKER_06 18:03

Like No, I I mean I remember you just really struggling even with your faith. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

At that point, yeah, there was a lot there.

SPEAKER_06 18:10

There's a lot of wrestling.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

There was a lot because it is a roller coaster of okay, so God is good, life is good. Right. No, life is terrible, God's the worst, you know.

SPEAKER_06 18:18

Yeah, and and then you're watching someone that you love like in pain.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Exactly.

SPEAKER_06 18:23

And scramble. Yeah. And it's like ah, that that is so that's so hard. Yeah. Um it's it's it's not a an easy thing. And like back to your story at the very beginning of like, you know, the girl that you worked with, you just don't know what people are going through. Yeah. You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

I know that so we had those uh six miscarriages, and then we had two um in a row.

SPEAKER_06 18:52

Yeah. So successful uh our hope baby. Um, our second child was born um full term. I did have some issues in the beginning, which were terrifying again. Like I just I I remember being like, God, at what point am I ever gonna just feel like this is gonna be okay? Like, because I never could feel that way. I it was just so touch and go the whole time. Um, but our second was born without any like infertility interventions, like it was just the Lord's timing and it and it worked. And um my body did what it was supposed to do. Um and it was it was that was a really cool experience. We we were surprised. So we didn't find out the gender until she was born. Right. And the room erupted. And what was cool, you know, I delivered at the hospital that you worked at.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

And so I knew all the I knew all of them.

SPEAKER_06 19:50

The nurses, they knew our story, they knew our struggle. They were like the biggest cheerleaders in the room. That whole experience of bringing her into the world very emotional, yeah, was just that's one of those days I would go back and relive because that moment was just so incredible. And then yeah, we had um our third was a surprise.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 20:13

Because I'll be honest with you, I was like, well, this is probably not happening again. Like we've got one and two, a boy and a girl. We're gonna this is this is it.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

Right.

SPEAKER_06 20:22

And then um it happened again. Yeah, and then there was no issue. No interventions or anything like that. So we we had our third, and that was a wild ride, a little bit of scare in the beginning, but we made it the whole full term. Like she was on schedule, everything just worked out, and um so our family continued to grow. And even throughout all of that, like I saw my um my fear play out in different ways of just like um how I would parent the the younger kids, how I like I was so fearful. Yeah, like I was so scared. It's like I I didn't want to lose him. I it took so much work to get him here. And so I was almost just like hovering all the time, like just trying, I was trying my best. But um, that was it was terrifying. Um, and so even after our third, I'm like, well, that's it. That was amazing. This is probably not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_06 21:28

Um, and then we just kind of went on about living our life, and we're thinking, this is it.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_06 21:36

You know, then and then I got pregnant in 2020.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_06 21:42

And it was a shock.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Yes, it was. Yeah, very much so.

SPEAKER_06 21:47

It was a major shock. Um, because I just I didn't again, I just didn't think my body's gonna do that again.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

Right.

SPEAKER_06 21:56

Um and we made it about About nine weeks on that baby, and that sweet baby went to heaven. And I lost that baby. And um it wrecked me.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 22:11

I did not like I thought, okay, God.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Whatever it was must be fine.

SPEAKER_06 22:16

Yeah, whatever it was, like it must be okay. You know, um, we've had two without any interventions, and it's so this is fine. I'm good. I'm not gonna have another miscarriage. And then I did.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

Yep. That was such a I don't know why, but I remember that being super emotional. It's surprising.

SPEAKER_06 22:37

I'll be honest with you, I think I think it was almost I say grief is like a wave, but I think it was all of it coming crashing right back down.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 22:50

And um it's like here I am again, you know, here I am again. And I don't I don't even have words. I remember weeping one night, just grieving and weeping in your chest. And um the Lord just was so sweet and kind to give me this picture of me being like hugged and held in the chest of Jesus in that moment. Like it was like the next day, and I just I remember just sobbing uncontrollably, like I had to get it out because it had been stacked up years and years and years. And um that was like a the I really believe that just the Lord just opened the door there for me to really feel what I needed to feel and that there was no shame in it, but that I I could be angry in that moment, I could be sad, I could be all the things that I needed to feel, and he wasn't gonna leave me.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 23:55

And that was one of the biggest, I think, steps of growth in my journey of learning how to love him more, letting him love me more, and um trusting you with that vulnerability as well.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 24:14

And in a lot of ways, um, you were the hands of Jesus that that night in a lot of ways. It is just a really beautiful picture. And I I even have like a sketch of it that I saved on my phone because I was like, I never want to forget that. Because that was one of those moments where I really did encounter the Lord and his kindness and his love for me. It's crazy. Yeah. And um, you know, not that I thought I would get on here and boo-hoo cry the whole time, but like I never allowed myself to really let it out. Right. Because I was scared. If I let it out, it's never gonna stop.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

Right.

SPEAKER_06 24:53

And that's it felt like that that night.

SPEAKER_04 24:56

Like this is never gonna stop.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:58

But it did. And the morning came, right, and I was able to let my babies the next day and hold them a little tighter and work through it. But it was hard.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

I think the seeing a um a picture like that is um just evidence that hope is possible. Yeah. But in even in the midst of grief, even when you're not ready to be the one that's hopeful. Yeah. You can have hope in the goodness of God. You can have hope in the um his awareness of what you go through and his willingness to be there in it all. Yeah. Um, I remember when we got pregnant even again. It was one of those things. I and I get to say this because you know, I'm on this side of it. You had said, I remember you telling me, I think I want to have one more. And it was after that last miscarriage that we had. Um, and I was just that for me, I was like, I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

I know.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

And I think what for me, I was thinking, I wasn't just thinking of, do you remember the ride we just went on? I was more so thinking, like, um, I don't know if I could do this. I uh my question to that was I don't know that I could be a dad again. Like, I'm not sure if I'm equipped for this much more than what I'm already doing. Yeah. That was more what my fear was. But my question to you was when you were like, I think I want to have try to have another child, what was the motivation behind that, or was it just a realization, or what was that?

SPEAKER_06 26:43

Um, I I think I definitely felt like I I don't know, it's really hard to explain when you have that feeling of just like, I don't know that this is it. Like I I feel like we would be complete with one more. Like this just feels right. And I and I, you know, I don't have some like super concrete answer as to what made me feel that way, but it was it was a I maybe it was my faith. I don't know. Sure, but it was it, it would, there was something in me that just wasn't settled in that that my journey, that our journey as a family would end at death.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

Yeah. Oh man, that's true. I never thought of that.

SPEAKER_06 27:30

And I remember I remember saying that to you, like that I was really having a hard time wrapping my mind around that that that this journey would end in on death like that. So um we we continued to talk about it. It wasn't a okay, well, let's, you know, yeah, we it wasn't we continued to talk about it and and really trust the Lord with it. I knew what I didn't want to do.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Right.

SPEAKER_06 27:55

I didn't want to go down obsessive patterns again, right? I didn't want to seek a ton of interventions again. And yeah, there's nothing against that. Like if that's part of your journey, then that's I'm not there's no shame.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Like yeah, I don't think that we were healthy enough to handle all of those um interventions. I don't think we were prepared to really handle it. No, uh, but I agree. I think you know, if you're trying to build your family and that's the direction you need to go, there's nothing wrong with it.

SPEAKER_06 28:23

Yeah. I I just knew for for us, like this just felt like the next right step. And so um, we continued to have conversation around it. We wrestled a lot of disappointment again.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

Like, um I think that I would love to get to this real quick because this is my favorite part that we we did accomplish another pregnancy.

SPEAKER_06 28:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

And um you got to experience something you had never experienced before.

SPEAKER_06 28:51

I did. So you guys know I've I've battled with my body majority of my late teen in adult life, like, and especially in the mothering department and pregnancy and all of that, and my body has just never done what I felt like it should do. Yeah. And I've always just struggled there. So we are in the midst of moving, and Nick has been working like under the house, like doing all kinds of projects. He's so dirty and gross. He's laying on the floor and he's in the back of this house that we're not even fully moved into. We weren't even sleeping there yet.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 29:29

And I go back, uh, his mom and I, we were unpacking boxes and trying to put together baby stuff and just trying to get to a point. I technically had what, like another week?

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Yeah, or then some actually, I think two weeks you had still.

SPEAKER_06 29:44

Um before before I was scheduled to have my C section done. So we're thinking we're good. Well, I go back and he's on the floor. You're working on something. I don't even remember.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

I was unpacking, I was doing the detail-y stuff at this point, actually. And I had all this stuff on the floor in the hallway. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_06 30:02

So he's laying down there on the floor, and I go over to talk to him about the day, and we're just we're talking about what what we still have to do, you know, and when we're gonna be done and all this. And all of a sudden, I'm like, I'm not peeing. My water broke. Like, I just looked at you and was like, I'm I'm peeing. I'm not peeing though. Like, I I freaked out. I was like, oh my gosh. And then I'm having like all of a sudden, I'm in this like euphoric moment of like, whoa, my body is doing what she's created to do.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

She started crying.

SPEAKER_06 30:33

I started sobbing because I'm like, oh my water broke. Yes. And then um, I'm Nick is frantic, which he's never frantic.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

Listen, I am one of the most calm in these situations. Here's what let me just explain myself. Where we were moving to and where we were is nowhere near a hospital. And the hospital where we planned to have this child is a scoot.

SPEAKER_06 30:58

It was a little bit of a scoot.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

And I had never experienced my wife's water breaking, and I was like, don't know how much time we actually multiple C-sections. Yeah, I don't know what this all means because of all of that. So I was like, we gotta go.

SPEAKER_06 31:10

We gotta go.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

The the car seat's not in there, nothing's working. Everyone, well, there is anybody. It was our children were with the neighbors at this point. You remember that? I ran out there like, where's my cat?

SPEAKER_06 31:22

Yeah, it was a little frantic. Not me though. No, I were instead. Like, I couldn't even believe. I'm like, everybody, it's fine. No, everything is fine. I was like, nothing's right. And your poor mom, you went and knocked over all the work that she did so I could get through to the restroom. And it was the whole thing, like it was awesome.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

But we we welcomed our fourth and final baby in uh 2022, and um it it really was a completion to our family because and what a way to met, yes, the redemption side of all of that. I mean, because that whole period of time, especially the time where we had six miscarriages just in a row, it seemed endless. Yeah. And it seemed hopeless.

SPEAKER_06 32:13

I remember having just like visceral response in my body, like I would feel sick to my stomach every time I had to look at a pregnancy test.

SPEAKER_00 32:21

I know. And I and I remember being a part of that is difficult, especially when and basically I'm I'm I'm kind of the outside looking in. I'm a part of it, but it's not my body. Right. And I have no control, and you have no control. And it's almost like why why can't we just why can't we just make it work? Why can't we get this right? And and it's just you're constantly questioning yourself. The way you describe it's me being told like you're the problem, basically, is what you hear.

SPEAKER_06 32:48

Yeah. And then I also question, I'm like, God, am I doing something wrong? Like, is this punishment? Like I totally went through that phase too. Like that was, but I, you know, redem redemption. I I know that he wasn't like punishing me or anything like that. And um, but yeah, I I I guess I didn't know really how you were responding to things. You were more quiet.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 33:17

I you were more reserved. I think um speaking out when you did that one time and then it not happening, I think that kind of scarred you a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

It really did. Um I it it scarred me and I was afraid to really show too much or get my hopes up much anymore because um I I didn't want to cause any more harm than I knew was being caused whenever you know something didn't didn't go the way that we thought it would go. Here's this is something I thought was interesting in preparation here. You have written down. Um so if if you were to answer this question by filling in the blank, I thought I was helping by blank.

SPEAKER_06 33:59

Uh I thought I was helping by like trying to take the reins into my own hands.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 34:04

And like doing all the things that I needed to do to make sure I was fixing the problem.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 34:11

Um I thought I was doing the right thing by it. I mean, it basically just became my whole identity was I'm gonna be, I'm gonna make this happen. I'm gonna be a mom, I'm gonna get pregnant, I'm gonna do all the things. And I thought I was I thought that that was right.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 34:28

And I mean I'm telling you, like there was so much um hard realization and growth in that time though, like with the Lord. Um and it's it's one of the reasons why I think today I'm able to hold both.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

That's a good idea. I really do. That's a good way to say it.

SPEAKER_06 34:46

And I I don't I know that listen, fully acknowledge that there are people listening that are walking their own journey out in this, and it is not going the way that you want it to go. Um and I just I I do I want to acknowledge that that it is it's it's hard if you're someone who's still waiting or you're navigating this silently, like you're not you haven't said anything to anybody, and so you feel really alone. Um, you're you might be questioning your faith. Um but I just want to offer like you the permission like to grieve and permission to feel what you need to feel, um, and ask hard questions um and know that you're not alone and that the Lord really can meet with you in this this place that feels impossible. I know he did it for me, and that's what I have to go off of, you know. Yeah, he did meet me in it. It wasn't a quick like, oh well now I've got this figured out. It's I'm still unpacking it.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

Right.

SPEAKER_06 35:53

And our youngest is four, you know, and we're not having any more children. And there are still parts of my story that I'm that he's allowing me to unpack and he's giving me insight on um and wisdom on. And um I don't know that I had I not experienced those things, I don't know if today I would be where I'm at in how I can carry both hope and disappointment. I'm still working it out in different areas of life. Yeah. Where this happens, it's not just in this area.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_06 36:28

It's in so many things, relationships, family dynamics, I mean, jobs, all kinds of things. You're you're gonna be faced with the things that you're disappointed in, and yet you still have hope that there is good on the horizon.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

So yeah, I I think something I would say to all of this too, in the and I'm glad you said that because we are talking very much in the way of like our trying to build a family and in our grief and hope experience there, but um I think there's there is a lot of pressure, especially um in the Christian church, to remain hopeful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 37:06

Um and not give space for people to grieve.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

I think I think if if we're honest, we're taught to just remain hopeful despite but I I don't I think that you can be hopeful in grief though, and maintain like knowing that God is that's the lesson that I really I think I could say now, like that. That's really what I learned. God is good, but this isn't good. And you will always find out that he's faithful and just. You will always find out that he is. And just because your story doesn't look like the way you would have written it, he is still a really good God. Yeah. And he is right there with you experiencing the same story. Yeah. And I think that um we're quick to overlook uh the importance of grieving and the importance of recognizing other people are grieving because we want so quick to get to um our hopes being fulfilled, like being realized, you know.

SPEAKER_06 38:13

You you've hit on this where you wanted to fix you, you I don't love seeing people in pain. Exactly. I want to make it better. And I think a lot of people, you know, I've had a lot of people say stuff to me over the years about this. And I think a lot of them meant well. Yeah, but they said some really stupid things.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 38:32

That did not land and it hit really wrong at the wrong time. And so I I just say mourn with those who mourn.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 38:43

Sit with them.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

Right.

SPEAKER_06 38:44

Weep with those who weep. Let people feel what they need to feel without having the pressure of making you feel comfortable, yeah, and allowing the Holy Spirit to do what only He can do. You cannot be someone else's Holy Spirit. You're not going to be the one that makes all of this better. Just so you know. Yeah. Take that pressure off of yourself and take that pressure off the other person. But it's possible to meet people where they're at and allow them the space that they they need that they need to work through what they need to work through and be available for them, yeah, pray for them, yeah, hope for them. Like when their hope is low, like you let use their, like, borrow my hope. You know what I mean? Like, here's some of mine. Like, um I think one of the most powerful things that anyone ever said to me, um, my sister-in-law, she had also gone through multiple losses, and she said to me, I'll never understand. I'll never understand.

SPEAKER_02 39:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 39:54

But I love you and I'm here. That's all she had to say. I'm here.

SPEAKER_02 39:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 39:59

That's all I needed to know. I wanted to fix it on my own, but truly the most powerful things that people people did, they prayed for me. Whenever that like if the Lord put it on their heart to come reach out to me and pray for me, um, it was always received. I I needed it. It always came at a time when I needed it.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 40:23

And then um to just allow me to feel what I needed to feel. That was those were the most powerful moments. It wasn't, you know, them having the right thing to say.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

Right.

SPEAKER_06 40:36

Or just have more faith. Oh boy. Please don't ever say that to someone who's grieving like this. Um, but it was just uh, I I'm with you in this.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

Yeah. There was one of the best um insights I was I was taught pretty early on when I think of it, was the concept, I think it's a Jewish culture, sitting Shiva.

SPEAKER_06 41:01

Oh, oh yes, I remember that teaching.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

It's great and it's helpful.

SPEAKER_06 41:06

Sitting Shiva.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

Shiva, I think you're right. So the the whole process is in mourning and in grief. When someone's in mourning and grief, um, I think it's actually an elder who will do this, but uh, it can be anybody that can that you're willing to have just come over to your home and they just they'll just sit next to the one who's mourning. They don't say anything, yeah. They don't offer insights or well-to-dos or here's what you should do or that or whatever. You're just there. And you're right, just the presence and being available for somebody, not you know, here's how you need to be feeling. Yeah. Um, but more I'm here for you regardless of how you feel.

SPEAKER_06 41:49

And that, I mean, just kind of bringing it back to you, you did that for me.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

Well, you've done it for me, you know. We've we've done that for each other. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 41:57

But specifically in that moment where I just needed to weep, you know, that was one of those Shiva moments, you know. It's beautiful. It really is beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 42:07

I would encourage anybody who is going through grief. Um, you don't have to rush it. In fact, I would encourage you to not. And it's okay to let someone know that you're grieving, even though they might want you to just start being hopeful so quickly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 42:26

I mean that's really it's uncomfortable for them too.

SPEAKER_00 42:29

Yeah. They they want everything to be okay. But I'll tell you, grieving with another person who's willing to support you in the midst of your grief, I think is so important. And I say that knowing it's hard to connect with other people, especially when you're in the midst of grief. Yeah. Um, but going through that with someone else who loves you and cares for you is so important. So whether I think you and I've talked about like grieving the way we thought life would look or play out or things like that, even doing many ways. Oh my gosh. Like it it's okay to be hopeful and talk about the hopeful things.

SPEAKER_06 43:04

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 43:04

This didn't turn out the way I thought.

SPEAKER_06 43:06

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

It's okay to do that, and it's actually it's good to do that. It's healthy. It is, and and then and that sure that builds a relationship, but it also it heals areas in your heart that you you are always questioning, like, how do I handle myself? How do I get better? Sometimes it's really just grieving properly, yeah. And acknowledging what's wrong. Um, so whether it's very evident what's going on, if you've lost someone or you've lost a part of your life that you thought you would always have, or that you've never got to experience and you're still not experiencing, it's okay to grieve. It's okay to not always be um happy go lucky. Yeah. Um he is good, he is faithful, and he's just and he sees you.

SPEAKER_05 43:52

And he's with you in it.

SPEAKER_00 43:53

Yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 43:54

I think that's a good place to end.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

We care for you guys, and we hope that this. is helpful and you can always reach out. So let us know and we'll see you next time.