Grant Holt | Factory Floor to Premier League

In this episode the lads sit down with former Norwich City captain and Premier League striker Grant Holt to explore one of football's most inspiring journeys.

Grant reflects on his unconventional path through non-league football, balancing work and ambition, overcoming setbacks, and proving that determination can outweigh talent alone.

From early mornings and factory shifts to packed stadiums and Premier League goals, Grant shares the lessons he learned over a career that saw him play across all five of England's professional leagues and come close to an England call up. 

Find out how close he was to his England dream, his favourite manager to play for and the one regret in his career, the club he never got to pull on the shirt for despite four near opportunities. 

An inspirational career and a lesson in never giving up on your dream, one definitely not to be missed. 

Transcript

0:00

Right. Welcome to three in the middle. A different three. Carlisle's very own Grant Holt. Welcome, Grant. Thank you. Good to be here, good to be back in the seat. No, it's just buzzing when he told me Dylan wasn't going to be a TV. That's quite happy. He can't at least he's texting now. Leave us alone. We're on you're on holiday. Enjoy it. Hi, good to have you here. And a quick one. Tony Everington, a friend of ours, has sponsored What's the Crack Going Forward. And I've chucked in a little bonus episode. This one. Because big Colal fan. Struck the deal in the Cali. Everyone around Colal knows that's where I strike the best deals. His sons, Jaden and Shea, we've coached his wife Lisa. Two goods. Oh yeah. So thank you, Tony. But go forward like that. Has to be. So, welcome Grant. We're going to go through the career. But first, I just want you to tell us quickly because we talked about Bond Squads, haven't we? I've been in another one. Uve Rossler, Wiggin. You're a record signer or whatever. Massive door to fire them up. Uve Rosler. What was his problem? Do you know something? I still don't know what the problem is. Still don't know what the problem was. It's really interesting. Like we've all been through and we have seen it. I was at Forest. I remember there's a one name in, but there was a guy there who was like, Well, you want rid of me, just let me go. I know. Well, I'm gonna kick the crap out of everyone and we're gonna do that. So he kind of left, and I was in this similar scenario. I think it it was Owen Collard came in, Owen Coller left, and I'd been injured. I'd got like a bruising on my bone knee or something. The thought done me as yeah, so it took us ages to get back. And then uh UV came in and obviously thought was like I was at it basically because the manager left and he doesn't want to play, and then I kind of he said, Oh, you can go on load to Villa, so I was like, Well, I'm not gonna turn going to Villa down. Kind of done that for a few months and then came back and I thought, well, he's not really having me, so I thought, well, I'll have a good pre-season, ran like a lunatic. I think it was probably the fittest I've ever been for a long time. Uh front of the runner, which is very rare for me, as anyone anyone knows. Oh yeah, middle of the pad to skip through it. Uh I was absolutely flying. I was and um I thought, oh, I've probably got a chance here, and then I walked in Saturday morning. I always remember it walking Saturday morning, and the manager wants to see you, pulled us upstairs and said, uh, just so you know you're not on the jamby tomorrow and all the rest of the lads, you know, with the the younger ones, you know, uh you're not playing, you're not training, you haven't got a squad, blah blah blah. I said, uh, all right, okay. I said, what for what reason? And he said, I've got my own reasons. I was like, well, that's not very helpful. Um and he said, and and we want you to leave, and I was like, yeah, no bother, not a problem. I said, well, go and get me check. And uh substantial, go and uh go and pay me up and I'll leave it. No, no, you won't get paid. And um, and that was kind of the end of the conference. I was like, Well, that's fine. Well, I'm not leaving, I've got a good contract, just move back home and blah blah. He said, Oh, don't worry, I'll I'll get you out of the club, I know what to do. And I started laughing, and uh and I went, Well, I don't think that's really the way to go about it. If you want me to leave, like kind of sort of in me's like, No, that's not gonna happen. I'll and you're with the 21s, blah blah blah blah, this and the other. And I kind of just said to him, Look, the easiest way it would apply as way to say it is to turn around and said to him, If you think you're ought to get me to leave after the money I'm on now, um, when I used to be a tire fit and I used to work from nine in the morning to five in the afternoon, and all I'm gonna do is eight till three. And he's like, What do you mean? I said, Well, you can't give me any more hours than that. Um, and that was it. That was literally the end of it. And um we in Halloween like limbo for? Oh, for the well, I literally I I kind of you you got two one or two ways about it, so you kind of plot your journey. So I knew what I was gonna do. It was I could still go out and loan at any point. So I in my head that I knew kind of like that October, November was kind of go out there, keep fit as much as I can, try and keep as sharp as it could be. But honestly, it was unbelievable. So, like, obviously, I'm at an age where I played with like loads of people and you you always bump bid to someone you know. How old were you then then? Uh I'd have been 33 years. So being in proper dressing room, yeah, but I was but it was great. So, like, anyone who's in the Wigan training ground, you have to come in, and as you walk in the first door, you walk through the canteens before you get the dress rooms. So every morning, he like he used to get the all the staff in every morning, yeah, and everyone was in there. So every morning I used to walk in, they'd go, Who's letting the prisoner in this morning? So I've got all the all the staff were there, like so it's Kevin Right running Joe. What I've done is the best thing I'd done with it, I've got my head around it because I had to. I went and seen Joel Parkin and um and Peter Afferton, who were brilliant with me. Of course, they was yeah, they were the 18s coaches and Gregory Oak as well. Brilliant for me. So I had a meet with him afterwards and said, Look, um, it's not ideal. We had about we had six 21s who were kind of in the group when the 18s came together, yeah. Um, and he's like, You're with us now. I said, Look, do I tell you what I'll do? There's gonna be days I'm gonna be grumpy, there's gonna be days when I'm gonna be moody, leave me alone. I said, But I'm here to learn because I said I'm gonna transition to coach and all that. So if you need me to roll up for odds and get after them, let me know if you need me just to be moody or ruin the sessions and use just for whatever, and that's what we've done. And I'd be like, they come in and go just going blitzer running today. So you had a bit of a purpose, yeah. So I kind of used it. You could be an asset for them in one scale. Well, I think that's what it was. I kind of used it for that, but then I um yeah, I ended up going back in and um and basically what happened was um Huddersfield eventually came in and said, Oh, we'll take him on law. And I went when I'm on to Huddersfield was Chris Holly, it was absolutely brilliant. I was absolutely flying to Huddersfield, and then um I was my loan was up from Huddersfield and I was gonna go back, but he was still there. So, but I then Huddersfield wouldn't sign it, the office was like a three-year contract, and I was like, Oh, perfect, I'll sign Huddersfield. And the owner who hadn't um uh hadn't really done anything and sat there, and the chief executive said to me, Oh, no, you're not going because um uh we just don't want to make sure because he was on the rocks. Uh suddenly he was on the rocks, so then we're gonna like no, you need to stay now because I'm flying to Huddersfield, and then um I went literally that's fine. So the letter signed up when the Mum Sloan took me to Christmas, and then uh my last game I was it was Boxing Day for Huddersfield, and uh Pauli said, I'm not gonna um I'm gonna leave you out. I said, Oh, no problem, you've been great for me. I'm leaving the next day. Came up boxing day morning. Now you're playing, playing the game and snapped me as you after 16 minutes. Oh, did you? Yeah. So literally went back to Malky McKay, just got the job next year, and I went back crutches, and that was the end of it, nine months later, and then kind of came back and I was kind of um um the good wigging thing was kind of half done and moved. So so we were overstairs made you what train on your own? Well, everything eat on your own, everything I so the rule was I had a rule where this is where one of the best things had ever happened. Well, worst best things. So we had a rule, bear in mind I know most of the dress rooms, Scott Carson, Hurchin, everyone, beat Leon Barn, all my mates. Selty Maloney, yeah. Sean was there, Shawnee, Gary Cole, everyone was there. So the rule was I had to be out at nine o'clock for breakfast, so I had to be out by nine before all the pros come in. So I had to get out. I can never get my head around. Oh, but it's brilliant. So this is the this is the best bit about it. So you wait for your magic moments. So I was sat down, I always remember I was sat at the table, big round table like this. So I'm having poached eggs or whatever, blah blah blah. So I think it was like maybe cars, perchie, they're all like weighing in, but they they had an early start for some reason, so they were starting a little bit earlier. So I'm on my breakfast, blah blah. So I used to always have table here, table, table, and the staff table was always like in the corner on the right hand side. So all the staff were in, and then Uvays came down. So he walked over to the table, he shook everyone's hand, everyone's hand on the table. And I'm like sat with four years, so he shook everyone's hand and not mine. So I'm inside, I'm thinking, yes, I've got him. So he got up, shook all the staff, morning to everyone, blah blah blah, shook their hands in that behind the thing, and he's like and uh and I was like yes, and up and went, clapped my hands, and everyone's looking like I've been on sorry, I reeled back quickly. Sorry, and when he came in the first time, he went backstairs, yeah, and then told someone to tell me to leave. And I said to him, to Joe at the time, it was brilliant. I said to Joe, I'm not leaving. I said, It's ten to nine. I said in the moment these boys are ruining my breakfast, and telling me about the game of the weekend, I'm not bothered. So, anyway, he's gone to the thing and I've stood up and started clapping. And he's like, Everyone's looking like buttons. I said, I'll tell you what, you did a few swear words of satin here. But I said, It's took you three months, but I've got you now. I said, I'm just off to see Kara in HR to hand in a letter for a thing, and I I've got I put a letter in for the PFA. Did it? It will be also called the Cara. And um basically he was going through a thing and then he got stacked, so it kind of got and have you ever crossed passed on him since I've never seen him never seen him say enough. No, where is he now? I was he was Dr. Ram. Look at it. Look, I've never it's one of the things you just get your head rounded, you know, and it's personal, that's where it but it's it's just the way it is. It's like you have a do it one or two. I use it as the other way around. It's good the way you changed it and you said you can be of of help to the young kids, yeah, like that. Because I've seen it the way it goes back, and this is my problem about what I always say to like anyone in that position, anything. I said, if you're a manager and never went down that route and you want to be a manager, the only way to ever get anyone out of your dressing room if you want is the lads turn them. So if you're a bad egg, you'll see straight away because the lads are like, I don't want him in the session, or don't put him in the same team. But everyone seems to go the other way. I was a member of the PFA, I wasn't looking at me for the PFA. I was like, what do you think I'm gonna do? To like, are we gonna I knew every single rule we had to do? So but it's just ridiculous. But I see it it kind of I was disappointed because I'd got the reason I was annoyed the most was because I've gone back such with great headspace in pre-season and I was flying. The worst thing I I've got I had no shirt, right? Scott Scott Carson, right? It's what he's like. So um we had a pre-season game against Rochdale. So bear in mind, wasn't allowed to eat with lads, couldn't see lads, weren't allowed into that, see the lads. Yeah, I'm leaving. Scott comes in laughing his head off. So I'm last in the building. What are you laughing at? Oh, you'll see, you'll see. So I'm literally saying. So I walked off and literally he said, Have you seen the uh squad for tomorrow? No, I walked in, he put my name in for Rochdale. So I wasn't in, I'd play the game at Rochdale. So I played 60 minutes in the pre-season. Oh I thought the same thing. So so that was one of this was at Rochdale. Then we put unbelievably, we then went to um Um Burton in the League Cup. Same thing, Scott Carson comes in laughing his head up. James first coming in is laughing his head off. You're in again. Tell me you've seen that never mind. I've been in this build, I've been in for two weeks, yeah, constantly in. He's like, tell me you've seen that build, but I no no no, so where are you? Um Kip Man wants to see you. What number do you want? I said, What for? He went, You're in the squad tomorrow. What number was it? 47. I said to him, What's the highest? He went 47 and said, That'll do. 47? But then that but this is the problem. So I wasn't allowed to train with them. So when it when it was horn games, this is how embarrassing, this is how bearing so I want when it was horn games, I used to have to sit. I didn't, I wasn't on the I was on the bench for the 21s. So the reserves I wouldn't wasn't allowed to play, it was at home because everyone was there, so you wanted to embarrass us. So I used to I used to sit on an icebook at every home game. And I had Ben Futcher and that at the time come from Barry and oh the URI glove wasn't there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I used to sit on the bench and he got to the point, honestly, he was that embarrassing at the time. He got the point that any time anyone got injured, I jumped up and started doing a massive, like, massive warm, massive run warm-up and not get no legs going, and then they go, shh, and like a 17-yard are going. I thought, ah, let's sit back down. I thought you had the talent, I thought we got ball, but honestly, I might as well. But he done the same at Burton, he took me to Burton. Took me to Burton, and this is why I think it kind of went the other way with the lads a little bit as well. It took me to Burton, same thing, wasn't allowed with the lads. I was on the bus at the hotel, blah blah. He took the game. So I'm thinking, oh, it's brought me all the way to Burton. I'm gonna be settled, like the stand. Name's the thing, names on the list. Holt Sugar thinking, oh I forgot, what's it? I took you a thing. I didn't even put my boots on. Walked down to my trainers thinking, I was putting me in the bench here. Boots were like that down the side, and um literally I was like, Yeah, just saying that I was gonna waste our time. Next minute's like Holt you get ready. Stick noted. That boy's bantering us literally all who's left. Oh, 25 minutes. So it's uh I'll give us the old knot. I'd give us the nod, 25 minutes. I'm like, I'll put my boots on and go for book warmer. And uh, and this is the point of thing. I don't I don't unbelieve when it came on because the professional kicking up in here, yeah. Right. I've been doing so much extras because I was read to go. I had no one Dazu's there is a brilliant fitness course. I had me on PT. Yeah, yeah, because I was with him, like you were playing Swash every afternoon for like was on the squad, you were getting fit beating. And I was unbelievable. I played really well in the game. We we ended up getting beat 2-1. Uh I think Mark uh Fortune scored, and then the part set him up, and then he had the post with something else. Played well in the game, and literally next day it was like, Yeah, you're back in the game. Not even in the squad for the next year. And I think it was so does that is does that have an effect on the lads then when they see that? I think you got the point because they weren't doing that well, where even the lads were a little bit like why we haven't got forward your thoughts of someone but go in and go experience one, but at the time you look and thinking, like, no one was really doing that well, and you're thinking, well, this was your opportunity to kind of and I asked Graham, I asked Graham Barrow a few years later, um, I said, like, he went, that was the point. We took we told him to take it to Germany, he didn't listen. And then we uh and then we said to him after the game, like you might look at his attitude and he's like, nah, I've just had him. Yeah, no. Used two winners at Wembley. Yeah. What school was it? Inglewood Junior School. Smith Chris. Is that did you get the cr you had to bring Chris packets in back in the day, right? The more you brought in, litter you got Chris. You got strips. So we had a phenomenal. We had a we had a phenomenal. We didn't need to get handy down, we won it, so we got one. So six aside. It was me, him, Paul Reed. I mean Swiss Diggs, Brett Swift, Ben Blair, Teddy Brown, Ryan Tulip, and we I think we won the final. If I could pick any kid who I thought you were carrying when I've seen the picture, carrying in both ways, carrying an ability, because carrying carrying. Oh but you were the with the corner taker. Well, that's gonna be. You saw the dime editor? Dive in it, I've seen this footage before. It's a great episode. It's a good episode. I couldn't miss. So what game was it before? Can you remember? We played the semi-final against oh, I can't mind. But the rules were mental, weren't they? Well, the semi-final, if you remember, you won on your corners. Eh? So if it was nil-nil, it was how many corners you got. So how many corners you got put you through? So the team we're playing, um, they were battering us for some reason, just couldn't get like kept on getting loads of corners from everyone. Swifty scored scored the edge. Was Swift scored the Ashley? I can't remember. No, it was Brett in the first game, and then you and Brett in the final or whatever. But you you were at what age did you change from centre half or defender to 14? 14. Why did you more ready jardine than anything else? Well, I had a few trials off the back of that. I went to store controllers at centre half. I'd done quite well. And then it was kind of like I was playing there, and then there was a carl centre half and right back, and we didn't I didn't really play. So can you put a can you put to bed a rumour? Did you get released from Carl? D were you at Carlisle? No, I left. Right as a schoolboy. As a schoolboy, I remember I always remember I went down to Blackburn. Um I went down to Blackburn. My dad drove us down. I played, I think, right back wherever I was playing the time. I played about 45 minutes. And I was in the car on the way back, and he's like, Yeah, alright. I was like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not enjoying it. That's all. I said, Nah, not really. I said, We're driving down there, hardly playing. I'm definitely not gonna get like a scholar because then I'm not even playing this, that, and the other. Um, I'm just like Johnny, so just quit then. So, what did you do? What what age was this? 15. So that was like 15. So I went. And then you just go and play like pub football. I went North Bank, so I started playing with North Bank because my cousin Aaron was there. So Aaron's like, come to North Bank. You'll have to mention you'll have to mention the avenue. I know, but that was just after that. So I'd played, I played at North Bank, and then Harib, and then obviously Harry B Catholic started that the year after, and uh Eddie Jardine that were there, and then all the boys were there, the older boys were there, and they're like, You need to come. I was like, No, no, I'm not leaving North Bank because I've only had a year there, so I'm gonna do another year there. So I wouldn't leave. And then I started playing illegally Sunday morning men's when I wasn't supposed to play. And uh for age, age things I kind of had a couple of games, yeah. Sure the one checking now anyway. Um and then and then literally the year after, then I moved to um then I moved to Harry Catholic, and that's when Eddie said, Look, I've got midfielders, do you want to go front? So I played so played a front for them. So it was under 16s Harraby. That's right, yeah. Then I played under 16s there, then I played um men's and then I'd done and then literally after the back of that year, we then I went to uh working for the animal. I was gonna say when did you start playing? So it was working. We beat what we beat Workington 4 0, I think it was. They're 18s, yeah, yeah. I think we beat them, I beat them. So it was just before working that started, uh Billard uh started putting the money in. So then there was me, the Swifty, like Mike Swift, loads of the that little group. But I was playing for Harry Cafe Club Men's on a Saturday. Right. So I used to play wing back then. So I was playing men's uh yeah, I was playing men's so I was playing up front for Cafe Club on the Sunday, then I was playing left wing back space for them. And then um and then uh we played um working and beat the four and I scored our trick, and obviously Peter Hamden was the main manager, and soon as came back, I was like, you need to sign this lot, yeah. And they ended up signing a group of us for the reserves and giving us money, and we're not playing for working reserves, right? So then part of that was I had to sign for the 18, so I end up playing working 18. Because I didn't know what the sort of the pathway was when you for that age. So it was Eddie who put me front, yeah. It's like you score four, he said you score far too many goals. You played because I played midfield for a little bit for thing, and he's like, You score far too many goals with set pieces you need to go front. It was me and Smeggy up front. You and Smeggy. Me and Smeggy. I was the person who was the power. So what was that what was the work into the first team or no? I was in the reserves, yeah. So it was a really weird weird story. So I was playing for the reserves, and then I basically got sent off. It's not like that. So a bit of a bad tackle, I can imagine. So I got sent off, and then it was then you got weeks rather than ah yeah, and that's a level, yeah. So I I think what happened was I came back, I mean, someone was playing front and I ended up playing right back or right wing back because I didn't have one, and then I think it was a long time ago, but something happened in the the first team, someone got injured, someone got injured, and I got called up because I was basically emergency right back slash centre forward. And then Paul Stewart was the he was the big money, money. All right, so he was the big money player, he was brilliant, like he's unbelievable, but you could still tell he had that flair, but he just didn't have the legs anymore. Uh and he was the big money signing, and he got injured, he'd done his hamstring, so everyone got shuffled up the order, and then obviously I was there as a right back, but then the dam beforewards, and I came on and I scored, I think, on the first game when it came on, and obviously he was out, so then I got kept in the first team. I think I am scoring like 12 and 13. So I only got in the squad because everyone was injured, and because I was right back, that's all it takes. I didn't know why Paul Stracho was working too. And then what happened was this is the whole thing that we knew we had to get paid per game. The last game of the season, we had to beat top of the league to win the league. Was it the sell-out? Oh, yeah, two and a half thousand. I was there, I was there. Two and a half thousand, it was rammed. Oh, it was class, and um I got dropped. I'd scored like 12 goals in 13 games, and I got dropped in the final because he came back and it's just it was on the other hook. Oh, yeah, I still don't take a cup final. I've made you still like I was fuming, but even the crowd when it got announced, I was on the bench, it was my mental. Like, what the hell's my bo? I think it lasted 20 minutes and I went on score going on score the winner. And it was that's how I got me moved because the guy um a guy had came up from Halifax for the weekend, he was from working to his best mates with assistant manager, Peter Butler, yeah, at Halifax, and he rang him up and said, You need to sign his kid, put him at all to Halifax. So, what age was that? That was 18. 18. So you went to Halifax uh with the aim to be like a first team player, pro, yeah, yeah. And was it was it full time? Full time, uh Darren Bracewall was there, Michael Proctor. Well, he he's on the Brace was on the list. Is that there? I actually seen him like the first assistant. I've seen him for the first time in 25 years. Just a senior mine, first time ever. He was the one that I he was the one after it. So Mark Liddish was the manager, and then um Pete was there, and then obviously the first year was kind of bedding in. I wasn't I was doing alright. Like, I had a few like little appearances towards the end, and I got I managed to get the uh appearance, first appearance was against Swansea, and it was the only game my dad ever seen me play football. So he drove like seven and a half hours to watch me play five minutes at Swansea, then drove back and went to work. So I didn't know your dad had ever seen you play. Just one game. Oh, it's good. Five minutes. All right, five minutes. Went all the way to Swansea at the end of the season, and I literally got five crappy minutes at the vetch. So is that lead two actually? That was lead two, and then the next year um was when he passed away, so it was that summer that you got ill, right? And he he passed away in that um that summer, and I was flying that pre-season, and he's like kind of oh that was September. And then Mamma tried to hide it till like slapped this and stuff, and then basically you got things I came back to work it in um for three months just to be home. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Probably the best and worst thing ever done because I didn't do anything. And um I actually rang the club up. I said, I need to come back, I need to, and then by the time Martin Lillison thing had left and embraced what came in, and uh, I was literally back in the building, I think about two months. Was it was it the worst thing you? Done because we were back around your pals and that. I was sh I was just dumb doing nothing. It was great because I was on Mrs. Ear. And you were just trading a couple of nights a week. I wasn't really training, I was doing a little bit in Bob's ear, and it was kind of like and obviously you bought your income, haven't you? So you can just yeah, I was uh I was on wages and all this kind of thing. So it was kind of the best and worst. It was great because I was around for everyone, but at the same point I wasn't taking seriously. And then um I started there. I was I was I was in um the sand centre, I was on the treadmill, and I was just dawned at us what I'm doing. So I rang him up, I said, I need to come back, cancer balone, I need to come back, I need to really give it another. Went back and I was literally about back two months embrace it for me. He said, Ah, you're not good enough, sir. So we're gonna let you go. Was that his very word? Was that his very words for you? I can imagine Brace thinking he could turn League Two into like go up the leagues, and I think he'd want a certain player. I've worked under Brace and it would have been a perfect way of playing, probably. But he just came back and he's like, You're not good enough and you're gonna go on loan. We're sending you to Farsley Celtic. I went to Farsey Celtic. I was like, Well, I for them it's not for you, yeah. And um do it yeah, and uh so I rang Kenny Loeb because I've been on loan for a month. Kenny's like, You alright? And that's who ran his wrath at Barrow. I would miss a fire. I so he rang us up because I've been on loan for one month. Yeah and he rang us up and I said uh he said, You alright? I said uh No, not really, they'll sell him not good enough and I need to leave. He's like, Alright, go and get your boots and I'll see you I'll see you on Friday. And I was like, Well, I need to no no, just go and get your boots and um I'll sort it all out. So I literally rang Alifax, told me, like nailed them a bit, said are you out of order um and said pay him to the end of the month and then I didn't even literally I went turned up on the Friday and literally went that's what you get it sorted me sorted me out. He was like on give us the same way he was on a Halifax and then give us a big bonus and he said and then he gives us Brian Keene at the time was the chair. Yeah, Brian. Brian loved us, yeah. He signed me for bad, he was a great follower and his and his son Tony. Ah yeah, he them they he loved his Brian. So Brian said uh I'll tell you what, scroll them goals and I'll give you I'll give you a big bonus on the top of your thing. Just go and score them. I don't care how you get them scored. And this was was it could it be called Unibond or something? Well I was gonna say that what what level Robert Snow? That was the Unibond three, whatever that was level three. Yeah. Because only two's the only one I've not played in, right? Which is annoyed us because otherwise I'd have done it all. I'd have on prem to step ten. Yeah. Effectively. But this is a 10 as a prem. Do you not? Do you reckon any as is anybody doing that? Jamie Curaton is down to step seven now. Right. He's down to seven. So he's 50. He's 50. 50. So he's down to like step seven, I think, now. But if I'd scored in two, I'd have done ten. So is this when you got is this when you went and got a job? So yeah, so I went no, to be fair, I went I went back to uh barra and then Billy Barr obviously was with was at CALD in the 18s. So I was I played with Bill at working. Yeah, I said to Bill, look, I'm coming back. Can you do me a favour? Is there any chance I'm coming to train with the the 18s and stuff? And then I'd end up training with the 18s, and then uh Roddy and everyone was there, and um I was training with the 18s, and then the um basically off the back of training with the 18s, then obviously Gallers and everyone got bombed and Hooley and everyone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I kind of one day I might join with the 18s with Billy, and then the next day I'd be doing the bomb squad stuff 6v6s in the Astro and that and I just join in with them. Yeah, or two touch under the the old standard stuff. So I kind of used it as like I was full time without being full time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then it got to the end of that, I was absolutely flying a barrel in the end of that year. Um that's when the old Carlisle thing started with trials and Rodding. So did you have a trend you have an actual trial under Rodding? I played three, I played three games towards the end of the season for the reserves as a trialist. So I played three games. A trilist time. So I played. So it was the end of the year, Kenny had so I was basically playing for the uh Kenny said after Christmas, he can go play for the Avenue if you want, because I was wanted to keep fit. So I played for the Avenue Sunday morning, yeah, Barrow on a Saturday. So Barrow Saturday, then Sunday morning men's damn thing, and then I was training with Carl, literally every single every single day. Yeah, and then played three games, and then they wanted to sign us, but like we did an embargo. And the guy went in basically I've been to Singapore I've been to Australia for a month previous year to kind of have a little look at it. He went to Singapore, and that's how we ended up going to Singapore. But in the meantime, they were saying, Oh, we want to give you a deal, but we can't get the deal across the line because of they were in administration still. So I was it's like, well, go to there, go and get weighed in and do whatever you need to do, keep fit. So that's what I've done. Me and Faye went to the missus, went to um Singapore for four and a half months. Yeah, and then I got a phone call, so I was just waiting for this phone call, I got a phone call off and saying Roddy, I just done. Roddy Collins. I all agreed, blah blah easy money. Easy money, there's your thing, blah blah blah. I was like, right, okay, how many years? Yeah, all agree, blah blah blah. So I the the to be fair, the the guys in Singapore were brilliant because they all I told them this is probably gonna happen. But I was absolutely flying in. This wouldn't have been annoyed, but I've been tofer three different clubs and offered us different contracts in Singapore and like gonna weighs in. So I was like, I'm gonna go back. So we got the flight back to um got the flight back to Carlisle, and I was back for six weeks. I'm like to Roddy, what's going on? What's going on? So then I played against Newcastle, scored, played against Celtics, scored two. That's right, yeah. And then I'm like, and he and then he literally put them in the office and said that um unfortunately we can't sign you, I've only got one player, so I'm gonna sign somewhere else. And I was like, oh I just want to pay that. So I was just like, oh cheers, uh. So then I went back to the barrow. Yeah, that's when I got a job, that's when I've worked in the factory at Cavis. You had like a hell of a lot of rejection, younger. I was in like I didn't see to to like to come keep coming back from it, and then to get to where like you did. I think the funny thing is there's always been that little carrot, hasn't that? Like, as you say there, the barrow, then the Singapore, and then you've got Carl. If you knew probably Carl L weren't sniffing, could you say that's it's a funny one? There's always seemed to be so yeah, the thing there's always that little thing, and I think that I think it's always because I've I've been kind of like very much I think a lot of it, apart from even the Wigan thing, all my career was my choices. Yeah, so I always give myself the option of a choice, like I left because I wanted to, or I always had something to leave for, I made a decision on what I wanted to do. So even like the Singapore thing, I could have easily said no, like Barrow would pay me all the way for the summer, and I'd say no, it's fine, I'm going to Singapore, and they're gonna pay that little bit. Yeah, so but I kind of it's an adventure, see what it's like, and and it's been good for me because I learned different stuff. But I would have when it came back though. The thing is, I've been in Singapore for four months playing in 30 degree heat, so I mean I was sweating more than Lummy was 10 minutes ago. But don't you start on that? But I was an honestly, I was the fittest I've ever been. So when I came back and played at Barra that like the second year, I was working in the factory as I said in the morning. They looked after me. I was so I've been so lucky. Like I had Lamy and everyone, he was my boss on my shift, and then on the other one was Darby and other ones, so they just looked after me. So, like if I had a if I was going down to two tonight game at Highland getting it at two in the morning, they like switch the shift so I'd do the six to two leave, yeah, and the next morning they'd then put me on the two to ten. So I was kind of getting looked after. So, like for them, even like Saturday mornings we had to work on the alternative Saturdays. I used to go in at five o'clock in the morning, so I'd go in an hour before them so I could leave the hour before. But they look they looked after me. But it was the the reason I took the job was because I'd I'd had to try at Exeter. The whole Carlisle thing had happened and had a few things, so I was like, I kind of took the job. That was it. That was uh I'm not after the Carlisle thing, I was like, I'm done. What with full-time football? I'm done. Like I'm sick of chasing the dream. I just want to get on with life and get a job, get a house. And what age, 2020? I'd have been 21 then, probably 21. So it was kind of like I'd kind of so were you committed to just your work and and just concentrating on barrow? Yeah, I was literally tough. Uh because great to look. Living with my mum's. Living with my mum's giving her 25 could a week. Yeah, 27, okay. Um and then I was on like I was on really good money at Barrow because I've gone back to Kenny. Kenny was giving us that money, then I was getting win bonuses every single week with new work. I was travelling with Graham every day, so I had a like when we're going with a driving partner, yeah. Which one well he didn't drive, he's got to start past his test when he finished me off. I mean it was a jolly up to fair. Um, and then and I had good money from the wages company, so I was I was in a great place, and I was loving life. I was going out with Friday, which I shouldn't have been. But um but everything, everything was pretty good, you know what I mean? Um and I I did not want to go. I I I went for a tri I didn't want to go, I went for a trial at Exeter. And I played a game against Hyde on the Tuesday night and Faye came with me. Played the game and then drove down to Exeter the next day. Which Fay wanted you to Exeter, or was she like she was she's been always been pretty good with like like it's your journey kind of thing, and I'll support Tom's not the UN Carlisle. No, no, no, no, no, I'm Toblin. Yeah, she's she to be fair to her, like I've that's another thing. I've been lucky because like the way she's travelled, like Nottingham, Rochdale, kind of she's been everywhere, Norwich and Dibb and stuff, and it's been tough times with like the kids and stuff and doing it all by ourselves. But um I was lucky that way. But we've gone to Exeter, drove down, literally, played the game, played the game, drove down Exeter, got there about three in the morning, jumped in the West Hotel that they give us jump in this hotel. And then we had a game the next day, played the game the next day, scored in the game 1-2-0, jumped back in the car, drove back home, back to work. Next day came up, I think it was next day a day after Sky Sports News. I was wondering why they weren't managing his ringers. He got sacked. Oh, did he? The manager got sacked. Oh wow. So I was like, oh great, my look's on fire here. So what was next, Chef Wed? So Chef Wedd was next, but after that, I said to Kenny, look, I'm not gonna. If anyone rings that phone, I'm not interested. I couldn't care less. I'm done. Was it because of the size of the club? Well not. Well, I didn't even know, it's because he told me to go. All right. So the Chef the Wednesday thing, I didn't even know about it. So I went we had a game on the Tuesday night. I walked in on the Tuesday. Um someone said, Gaffer said, uh Gaff won't see you. So I went in him and Lee Tur uh Turney were sat in the in the room. Because that's good. I use a assistant manager, I Tony's brilliant, so I still speak to him all the time. So it's him and Kenny had pulled me in the room and said, uh you're not um you're not playing tonight. And I just started laughing. I said, Well, I scored about I was like running about 10 games gonna go on. And he's like, No, no, you're gonna trial, uh you're gonna trial on uh Thursday. I was like, nah, we've had this job. No, it's no no no you you're uh you're definitely going. It's Shepherd Wednesday, and I was like, oh nah, it's a different category. 2003? Uh yeah, Lee One, they were in. Played against you, he got sent off. Barnsley. Barnsley, yeah, for diving. For diving, aye. Alright, second year, 45 minutes. He got away with it. It's never been never been a record. It's never been a dive, it's a still more pet. He's not got got he's got a reputation with that. Well, we'll get to that. Paul Walnut's got sent off the same boat, he's got nothing. Because the gaffer was saying he's gonna send some off, he's gonna send some off, and I was on the bet. I was going, Gaffer, get me on, he's gonna get sent off, and he did. I really didn't watch it in the tunnel. Because I got sent off the far end of Barnes. He had to walk all the way down. Yeah, yeah, he did. He got sent off at the big style. Well that that's where it was mental, because I've gone from I'd literally gone from playing in front of I had a trial game. We actually played Newcastle. Um I think Green might have played in the game, right? Um I played in the trial game when I was terrible, in my opinion. I didn't do anything. It was down at um down at Shepherd Wednesday. Bear in mind when Faye and my mom came with me, pulled up at Hillsborough, no one, no one in. And I'm looking around thinking I'm in the middle of Hillsborough, and just the nerves got to us, and yeah, uh, I had a bit of a beast. I love playing on Hillsborough and loads of rooms. Oh, it's it's great, it's brilliant. This club's unbelievable. I just wish it'd stayed longer, but it kind of didn't work out there. Um but I'd done that, I played the game, and they asked us to go and play another one against Newcastle on the Tuesday. I said, Oh, perfect. It's there, I booked the day off work, blah blah. And it got to the point where I didn't really care. And then they rang us up and said, Oh, we don't want you to be on Tuesday. Now we've got a game in Trevor Wednesday, playing Birmingham at the ground on Friday. I said, I can't have took the day off work on the Tuesday. So I ended up playing in the game against Newcastle. They had Lois Loire, Sholamiorby, is it the centre after Marcelino, two Calderwoods players? Oh, but you absolutely bullied it. Oh, Marcelino. Gaz and Steven played. I think he played in the middle of the play three of the back. Lois, I'm sure they were up top. And uh, we had a team eventually. That was when you played proper reserve. Yeah, proper reserve class. But we turned up with all eighteens because we had the game for the thing, and we just ran. Just ran and ran and ran. We got a nil-nil. 0-0, unbelievable. Came off and like you'd been bopped. It was the first time though, you'd been bopped, you know. I I didn't even do it, like, and then uh got I literally I was remembered, so I literally played the game and it was probably the the Thursday. Thursday or Friday, it must have been I know it was Tuesday, and I sat on my uh track uh me um stacker in the middle of caddies in the freezer, minus 40. My phone kept on ringing ringing, three's calls and this number, I better go and drive out, so drived out the stacker, walked out, sat on this thing, and uh phone da da and uh it was Chris Turner, hey Grant, I thought uh every told me you're brilliant, there, blah blah blah. And he came and watched us. Um I had a lead a game for Barrow right after that. And him and him and Dinger came to watch us, yeah. And I managed to the first goal got smashed in the face from 25 yards and it went straight in. First goal, cleaning everywhere, cloud everywhere. Second goal, he was behind us. Cross came in. I missed it with my head and shouldered it in the top one. It's one of them days. He rang us and said, Oh, we'll sign you. Hey, because look at you. You'll touch you the night of the 35. Oh, think you up, or you got three guys? No, no, no, the numbers are right, but it's the pitch. I was gonna tell you what the touch is. If you're touching, then you're down the running job. I'll tell you what, honestly, he's a nightmare. I was I was telling a story, but I tell a story about him all the time. Uh when I was non-league, I used to knock on him, you know, like every time. Yeah, so we'd speak and said, Oh, day you're going for a run pre-season, you're coming around. Are you coming? Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Tomorrow, blah blah blah. So I used to I used to run around to his uh his old deers knock knocking. Are you coming or not? I'm gonna go later. And I'll go every day and I'll be off. Literally, I was hunger. I was like, Do you go for a run or not? Nah, I didn't want that. Is it Alan Hill and Mick Rodrigo? Mick Wadsworth used to just like just look us up and down, go, I should just say a bit heavy song. Hey, is it Tony Opposit be looking at you looking at it? So I so Jeff Wade, uh Mike Already with you. Yeah, so Matt Mike, so that was the so we're at this end when we were going down, so we're literally Lee, what like Lee? That was the end of the championship when I went. So it was the end of the champ, and um me and you scored against Brighton, didn't you? Is that right? I scored, give the pen away, and we both got relegated. That's right, I mean, I because I was driving. Oh Dave Brasson scored past Dave. Dave Bobbies and Mora scored the pen to uh thing. Yeah, we was we basically yeah, I that was my first start. The game before was me and Reds, uh Reddy uh were on both on the bench. I think Lloyd Awood soon Chef kept the game anyway, and we're at pop uh Fratton Park, and it was when um they had all the big ears that were going to win the league or Mercen and that Harry and uh Harry and Frank, and this place was bouncing. Oh, it was literally like rocking, and as we walked in, they're walking past us with the champagne and beers because they only had to get a draw and we had to win to stay up. So they walk up ching ting ching walking past lads, the champagne trolley hour, and we played the game and um Ashley Westwood scored a header from nowhere to make it one-one with about with about 10 minutes to go, wherever it was. So we were kind of resolute to go on. They just went right, used to go on, and Reddit's was so quiet. And um, I don't want used to try and do buy a foul. Buy a foul, old driver. So I basically tried to buy a foul, and it was um Stankovic, I think, centre under it. I know so he's came behind and said I've gone down, grabbed the ball, another usual one, try to get the thing. So he's give it the other way. So where the by the time the melee finished it, it was over there, and I was here. He passed the ball back to the lad to take the free kick to waste time. As he's took it, Reddit's nipped in, went the full length and scored two one. They're gone ballistic, like they're all on the pitch going mentor. Reddis scored two-one. So he kept us up for the one week, and then a week later I played them. I scored my first ever goal, went and won it up. And Danny Kullock, who I played with Later Forest, he literally went up and literally pushed us and have like basketball this ball and give a pen and go up for the same down after. And that was a killer, really. Ultimate what happened so far. Cape the Sunlin, never drank, virgin within six weeks, alcoholic, on everything, and Mother White changed quick. Yeah, he was a great lad though, but he was so quick. Is the Rochdale move needed for you? Um it was kind of one of them things, it got to the point where I knew I knew the year after League One, like they were gonna go big, they had to get up, they were massive, they had to get up. My time started getting limited when I was playing, I was coming on little spurts, and it's no good for me. I need to I need to keep playing. And um, I played um I nearly went to Plymouth with Paul Stuart. Ah, yeah, yeah. And that would have been League One. That was League One, and they were going for it when they were going for it, and so I was kind of like in and around it, and then they're like, Oh, that's not happening, and that kind of died down a little bit. I think oh, because they started flying, so they didn't bring anyone, and then I was oh, I need to get out of here. And you just know when you're training, yeah. And I played Berry, especially when it had the taste the first team. Well, that was it, it was like you're going out in front of like 35,000 Hills, but then you get 10 minutes at the end, and then and we weren't flying, so it was like you're trying to grind out the results and stuff. And um, I just went to his office. I played a get uh reserve game against Berry, and I hit the best two goals I've ever hit in my life. So um uh thing I'd had a goat as half time, and I'd gone out and um I thought I'm just gonna hit this volley this right with volley, 25 yards, went right in this top corner about 10 minutes and then I had a left foot one, which I'd never do ever. Went in your top corner, and Steve Parkin literally signed us after after that. He's my manager, Steve Parkin at rock. Steve. If Barnsley, Steve, you know what? I'm looking back now Steve Steve hands up. I love it, mate. I don't mention him enough as a good man, so brilliant man manager. If we had a stayed up, Barnsley. So when I sang well, he came to us, didn't he? From Barnsley. Yeah, he came to Barnsley and we're back. So it was Thursday. If you won't gress at the fuck, see you Thursday. Go on, three at the half an hour you go, right? Piss off. Like, if I want to do a more you said, piss off. But if we had stayed up, Barnes would have got invested in, but because we went down, it was then he was brilliant for me. I met I met you were gonna play on the show. I met in the hotel and just said, look, come in and play for me. And basically what happened was I went in, we were near the bottom, obviously. Um lead two, lead two, hi. And then um I basically played, and then obviously we played, and then I got like a dead leg and I played through it, which ring was like hi mass. Oh, right. I was doing I was doing 60 minutes and then I had to come off because the leg was bigger and bigger, and it's getting slinking a bit of the big uh future and yeah, yeah, yeah. Big three lads at the back, and I got dead leg, though I was like, it was killing. And then obviously we played Carl at you and they went down. Did you did you did you die? No, yes, you did. Did you fit? Absolutely. It was my debut. It was there. Obviously, it was a bad debut. It was hot, it was windy. Oh, it's windy, and it was it was windy, and uh was it mirth that didn't touch you? What in the box when you went down? Mike Lennon ran out of gallunatic. Run out of the lunatic. Did you know I've seen him coming to my life? So if you stood, he was gonna foul you. Well, I was coming up, I knew what he was doing. I was always going round him and over him because he Do you know he gets up though? He's got that little smirk on his face with the bottom of going. No, he must have pen for Forrest again. Right, and I had to go on a Stagdo after that in in Forest. Who was who was up front for Rochester? Was you and Paul Tyr? Was it master, right? You can shoot him shoot. He's one of the best lads. So speak to him or not. I tell you, I spoke to you. Is it Evan? He was a flu, is he? It was a crew with me. Yeah, is that Evan? My dad coached him when he was 13, and then he was the first person I see when I got up the crew. He's there. It's like Reggie Al. To Carlo is a weird one, though, because like you're trying to you're trying to do your thing and play properly, do you know what I mean? But the thing is, like I said, it's like the amount of times of the like I said, it's just one of the things. But it's a thing that you've got to do your job though, not coaching. But you're just being on about it before everyone is if you ever said I scored in the game as well. I scored another one, so I scored not me, I scored as well, but and I was quite a good player at the time, so these football clubs aren't gonna look after you, you've got to do your business, though. At least you a week later. I say you you didn't put it in. That was it, and then like I said, with Ribro, I never seen Roddy again for I I'd say the next time I seen Roddy, I was walking to train at Rochdale, and uh you talking about two aggressive men, Roddy Collins and and and Steve were really and I walked out literally what beat it. I would fight that, wouldn't it? I walk I walked down and got literally I walked past his office because you know Rochdale, like you go down, you go right. And we used to go up and then you train you'd walk down and train down like the cricket pitches, which was great for me because I was it was very non-league, Rochester. It was like back to your roots kind of a bit. And I walked past and I got a punch in the ribs. I think, oh gaffa. Turn around, he's rolling. Oh, you big man. I always said you'd do well. I looked at him like, what? Well, you binged us off. He was signing Paddy McCord and he took Paddy back to Ireland. Did he? I'd signed Paddy. Oh, unbelievable. That's the one we get talked about. Oh like, and as a guy in a human, is he's his um his nephew's at Norwich now. He's not a bad player, I just signed him from Ireland, he's alright. Um but Paddy was just a belly wife. Oh, he's phenomenal. Like he got it. Obviously, he was supposed to go to Man City before I got there, and it all fell through. And then with us yeah, he's not Steve Hiving's kind of player, Johnny. No, no, he'd not be he's like a Leo Bertus, who's playing. Time run down the line. How did did Parkin take Leo Bertus from Barnsley? Yeah, yeah. He didn't play me. Alright, took him there. Leo was brilliant down the line, crossed it. I was loving it. I done all right. Alright, it was good. Did he? Bloody a 'cause in Rory Fallon, David Mulligan, three lads from New Zealand were at the type, was it Barnsley? Rory kicked on Rory Fallon. Money done alright. Yeah. And Leo, I Leo didn't think Leo had. Leo was for us, he was good, but he was kind of thing. And then obviously we were near the bottom of the league, and obviously, we we I always remember the game we had a game. We're two of the luck. Paddy came on with 10 minutes to go. He's doing his tricks and swaggering. It's the best player I've ever seen take anyone. No matter who I've seen, he's the best. Yeah, yeah. By a mire. And um, we had about two minutes left, and the game was like they just had a chance, nearly scored. Yeah, ball bust to Paddy. Everyone's screaming, go the corner. Well, he's started setting off, and he's obviously about fancies. Bearing man is 1v4. And he gives drops the shoulder. Think lad thinks he's going to the corner, meander's in, goes past him. Whenever everyone's screaming, go the corner as he's going past him, comes in and bends it in the corner three and none, just runs off. Just runs off. He nearly caused the biggest disturbance I've ever seen in in um in Edinburgh. We went Edinburgh pre-season, right? And uh obviously he loved to drink Paddy, but he was brilliant with it. Like he was never like he's just great. And we came back, and um, I don't know what happened, he had like a bottle of red wine or something in his pocket. And he kind of did do aye kind of he snuck it, like he snuck it back to go in the barracks, and um and he was like the lads were brilliant on the door, and blah blah we came back, and all of a sudden we're walking along and Paddy's banter and blah blah and was there and it literally dropped the red wine on the parade square. Oh no, aye, if you imagine, literally dropped on the parade scare, and everyone's like, Oh my god, the guard was going mental thinking I'm gonna have to clean this for the morning, blah blah blah. That's all he would have. Oh, we got well no, we got back in the dorm, and then no the doors open next morning, six o'clock. Let's go, run time. PT's took us out. All right, took us out for absolute beasts the next day. Oh, it was oh I was horrific, but honestly, no, we heard you there, shh, it was like stone cold. I don't know what's going on. But he was unbelievable. He was uh we we just had an unbelievable group of players, and then Ricky came the year after Ricky came the year after, and he was he was insane really in terms of his number. And is that you after Prevorrach still like you you're going right? I'm looking up here. Are we just loving your foot each just loving it? Did you not think I'm gonna go higher because of what you're doing? Swansea had tried to sign us three times, but free bidding and who's the managers, uh Nikki uh um uh what's his name? Nick Yedens. I was in what was in there with the other? Come back to his look. Um and uh it was kind of like oh I don't want to go, and then they got knocked back three times, so like yeah, you can't go there anywhere. Was that what at the Vetch as well? At the Vetch aye and the Forest, and then and then obviously Forrest came knocking in the the thing they signed me in Nathan Tyson both on the league. So we were both top goalscorers in League Two and the signed above, was it? He was from Wickham from Wickham. Were they in the league above or champ? They were in league one. League one, right? And then uh, but I walked in, obviously I knew Dobbs a little bit because I was at Carlow when I was uh and I walked in and I seen all these names. You do your research when I walked in and uh walked in, met Gary Megs, and he's like there was uh and then I was like right, okay. Then the next day I came in and I was like sat in the dressing room, like I know a few of these, but where's everyone else? And obviously I said the doors, where's he went? Oh no, they're all down there. There was about 15 of them. There was about 15 of them down the book. Does he shout all game? Oh, it's pointless. It can't be when he got sacked. Like I I'll get I'll I'll I'll it's one of them I've loved him hate him. Like a lot of the boys hated him. I didn't mind him because I knit aside for him. I never played it. We played all them, and it was at the end, you knew that he had lords down there, like he had big hitters down there, like um every player was a big hitter for that. Like John O was down there, Gary Holt was down there, um John Curtis, like big hitters down there, a big money down like down there. We played Holdem, never forget it, and it was um he got beef 5-0, right? Before the game, he said to two of the players, I won't name them, but he said to you know, in the squad, they went the par. Two of them just walked into the bar, so they were in the bar, and then at half time, we must have played three formations, like whatever. And he pulled one of the other players off at half time, he went in the bar. Then he said to me, I don't know, I knew and you, I don't know what you're doing. Stand up the front like a lumpalad. I was like, Well, if you tell me what formation I'm playing, because I said play two up front, one up front. I've been wide left for it for I was like, what are we doing here? And then he said, then he got, I think he'd gone for someone else, and I think he'd gone for Wes Morgan or something, and Wes have gone back and and then um we got B5 in the end. Literally, you can imagine the forest and they were terrible, but he just lost it lost the dressing room, not actually. He looks like someone who can but he done went at West Bronx. But then he kept we got back on the bus afterwards, and then uh obviously his assistant had got on, and he didn't go on the bus, so I didn't know. And then obviously a few of the boys had been at the bar, so you could just hear it so that and he's like he's definitely gone, and I literally went and he went the next when he got the next day. The dress room was gone from like twenty to thirty. Oh yeah, he got them all everyone back in. But everyone's back in, yeah. So everyone was back, he was like the restroom was just absolutely even with like this thing, but that's for me, he was like you have a love and they hate them the thing. So even Dorbes like him, and Dorbes doesn't like doesn't hit. Well, in the West Rob, sorry, do you reckon he had a different relationship with Dorbes? I think it's a little bit and it was when Dores was going through his when he's hip. Yeah, I mean, so he's Dorbes going through all that stuff and different things, but Dorbes got two moves in like a week or something. He went to Millwall and then straight away Madison came in from Dores even for then 2930. Well, we should have gone the champ. Just underrated and then clapped just out. Well we beat you, didn't we? In the thing that's Forrest. Yeah, but yeah, yeah. When I was on loan at Blackpool, I actually watched again. I came up when what we had blew it a couple of weeks before, but Forrest were never in it. I went when then Donny lost. We beat you the week before, and then the last game of the season where you had to win in Cheltenham Matton uh draw or whatever. Uh Donny Cheltenham beat Donny. Oh, that was your thing. But I was in the I'd have run alone to Blackpool then. Yeah. Because then I was supposed to come to Carlisle. Well yeah, that was another chance to come to Carlisle and they wouldn't pay the money. We wouldn't pay the money. So that summer when we didn't get in the champ, you were coming, but who wouldn't pay a car? Carl's and then uh I think that's when Fred finally went, let handed it over. But that was when I had the and the same thing with um when I left Forest to go to Shrewsbury. So I got offered to Neil wanted to sign us and then uh he wanted to sign us and then the board. I'd say nah it's not worth 150 grand. So that's where I signed Shrewsbury with some. So how much did you sign my Shrewsbury for? Uh 170. Was it? I thought it was like 400. Who was that? Was that Simmo? Simon, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Was that your first dealing with Simon then? First, well, I knew him, obviously, knew him, but not really. But it was Paul Murray who was ringing us every two minutes. Oh, right. Because he wanted a driving partner, I think. Alright. I think he wanted driving partner, and I was always I we we've gone to Mar Bear because we've got obviously they got promoted with Forest. Yeah, and um at the time uh Chris Commons was linked to Derby, yeah. Obviously, the world's worst move you could have done. And um combo, because I've done really well with Como. They live when all like mine, and have we I got it? I put both of them, man. Like that, all right? Obviously, too easy. Obviously, Dylan. I was straight in. Dylan's used, by the way. I'm saying that now. Stoke when I was straight in, I brought them too, that was nailed. And um, we sat in uh like a bed, like having some drinks or whatever, and um my phone rang with Simmo. I was like, Oh, you alright, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um can you talk? I said, Well, not really, I'm like, I'm in thing. And he's like, Alright, he said, Um, I've just been told and get you. Alright, okay. Yeah, Forrest said you're you're available. Hang on a minute. Hang on. Call in. Call him all the time. Said, Cole. Well, he said, Paul, I've got Paul Simpson. He said I can uh he said I can leave. Um time to put it down with place. So I was like, uh I said uh that's fine. I thought I said his reaction tells me everything. I said, I'll give you a coup, I'll give you a call when I'm back. Put the phone down, and uh Chris Cummins was literally like sat next to his combo was like, Oi, you told me no deals were getting done, and he's like uh he's like, right, that's it, I'm bringing me an agent. Come on, go on. He walked, I think he walked up to walked to the bar, and uh but I was um and that's how I kind of knew that it was it. But I was like, but I had uh yeah, that's when I knew I was I could go over. I spoke with Simon, like I went down and met him. You enjoyed working at now, loved it. Yeah, loved it. Who was who was his staff who was under him, who was working with it? Uh yeah, a lad called Stu and John McMahon was there. Right. I didn't see them two working together. Well, I think John stayed because he was there previously and Stu was there, so he didn't come in with any staff per se. Um it's such a random. I went down to Shrewsbury and Simon said to us, When you meet the chairman, be careful because he's a bit quirky. And I was like, when you hear them words, when you hear them words, you're kind of thinking you're thinking, doesn't all for you. You're thinking Forrest Green, aren't you? Yeah, you're kind of thinking you're not a shoe, but he wasn't like that at all. He was so you walked in, he's just old school, so you walk in his office and um like big walnut table, red carper, sharp suit in there, do you know what I mean? Cigar box on the side if you wanted to and on the other side, blah blah. So I walked in, he's like, Grant, blah blah. Are you alright, blah blah. Yeah, really good, thank you. How was the yeah, good, like you stand personally? He went, You're an Aries. And I'm like, Aye, how'd you know? He went, I'm an Aries. And he said, I'm just I knew you're an Aries, I watched you play, and it was something on it. So it's no, he said so. What I said to us was which was pretty cool, he said, Um you played Shrewsby, it was Joe Hart's first game, Roxdale played them, and I scored. Right. I think it was it's Dave Walton's center half. Dave Walton, I've been with crew, right? So Bowler Kemin had literally buried him and played a corner, and then he went, I literally got got the thing up and programmed, looked who you were, and looked at your age and went, has he just done that to him? Like Dave was a strong ball. Oh he's just done that, and then he'd watch us through the season and he said, if he ever comes up on a list, I'm getting him. Getting him, yeah. And that and he went, and you Paul Simpson walked in, and before he could leave, he said before Paul could leave, I went, go and get him. Yeah, straight away. So he lived. How much you go there for? 170. Some records for them, or I think so. Hey, you're not even Aries, you're Aries. Okay, right now get on. But he done um, it was really weird because I was like umran, because I was like league two, I'd yeah. New stadium. New stadium is it they're all they're going, they're only gonna go one way away. So I said to him, he said, Look, he said, and and he was really honest, he went, I know what you're just gonna say, we'll lead two, blah blah blah. Um he went, I went, Well, and the thing is, my agent wasn't with us, he was away. He's like, Whatever you do, do not go meet him without me. Because like I know what you're like, you'll get so I was like, I'm going to meet him because some of us can only do today. And um, and to be fair play to him, he said, right, you you're gonna tell me you want a um a relegation release clause in there because you're gonna you're gonna score goals and he said, I know you'll be top goal scorer next year and everyone's gonna chase you, blah blah blah but I think you'll get us up, but I'm not putting a clause in there because whatever money number I put in there, like someone will hear about it and they'll come for you in it. Yeah, right, okay. He said, I'll tell you what I will do for you though. We'll have a gentleman's agreement that if anyone bits 400 grand, if you don't speak to them, as soon as it's 400 grand, I'll give you I'll sign you. He said, But I think you'll go for more than that anyway, but in a year's time. Right. Right. So I was like, right, okay. I'm thinking I really need that in there, but I was like, what do I do? And then he um and then I always owed some money from Forest for like because they wanted to get rid of us and obviously yeah, I'll have a ways of it to go. So I'd said to him, I said, Well, I'm all this from Forest, so I can't sign anything because they said they can't do that till next week. And he he just basically said, Look, he went, You ain't leave it. He said, Do you want to come? Do you want to be part of the like the project? I said, Well, yeah, he said, Well, I'm gonna give you that. So he told us what he was gonna give us wages, right? Okay, he said, I'm gonna give you that and you scored all the goals, and I'm gonna pay you that that they owe you now. And then whether you give us it back. And I was like, Where it's fine. So and that was it. So he said, I he said I can't have you leaving here. So did could you still get it off Forrest or he just saw it? No, no, they like Forrest, give us it, and then I'd I give it back. They paid it straight to it. Yeah, so but I was um, but he said, I can't have you leave. He said, because it's I've just been told it's gone on Sky Sports News, so everyone will know you've you we were in for you, and he said, Your phone's gonna go mental. So I was like, I was wondering why he kept going off, so I banted him off. So then literally I left seeing Simo, and and then he's uh I said, Well, I need to have a chat with Simo's gonna show us around. He said, Go and do that. Yeah, came back, he'd put the money in my bank account. Oh he said that the money's there. He said, I'm not done. Do you want to sign the shrewd screen? He said he said, My handed done, shook his hand, and um literally left. And my phone was going mental. I phone sort of calls off everyone. I do want to come in, do you want to go in? He agents like said to me, Agent, I'm done. You went, What do you mean? I said, Oh, I'm done. What about my thing? Like, sort of, not to fair. He was good as good. Aye, yeah. Well, I'm gonna be out. What are you yeah, we are? Like, what are you? I couldn't have dreamed that. Was that the uh the Simmon Jackson score against you? I should be. Which is in the in the nicest possible way, brilliant for me in one way, because if I'd if we'd have gone up, I probably wouldn't have got out. Um and in the thing you wanted to win a win yeah, but I said, What are you? We had it was like we was we went we went to the playoff final and we only won two games that we all yeah. Draws there, did you? Draws and left us. So you lost the play-off final. We lost the playoff final at Gillingham. We think Gillingham was 7-0 that year as well. That's very but we um we didn't um yeah, we didn't we won two games or yeah. I think the first one we won was Did you leave right after that or literally left somewhere? Paul Simpson wanted to sign us. Uh sorry, Paul Lambert was desperate to sign us at Colester and he rang us loads of times saying we're putting you 300 grand go until the chairman you want to leave. And I was like, No, I'm not I'm not gonna tell him until until you're 400 grand. I said he's listening. And then Norwich triggered the fall. And then Norwich went 200 grand, aye. Brian Gunn, aye. Rang us up, chairman rang us up, yeah, they've agreed it. So it's up to you. I said, What do you mean? He went, Well it's up to you. Go on, uh go on here. So he said, go and see what they say, and I've got your contract there. So if you don't like it, you can come back. What new contract? Uh yeah. So he um so I said, right, okay, so I went down. It's hard to turn that down, Laura. You can't turn it down. Well, you went down there. Well, I nearly didn't sign because I was down there for three days. My brother came down with us, came down, which was brilliant. We left we left Carlisle, it was absolutely freezing. We got down there, it was the hottest place. We had to go to the we had to go to the literally the shop of the run next we had nothing. And he had the best life for three days. I couldn't leave the hotel because I didn't want him to see you. And he was like, he was out on the beach. He used to stay in B's, it was a red light district. Oh the window that water bomb. When it was a different visit, massive listen. Um but yeah, and um I'd literally three days, got the third day, and I'd I'd had an ankle in the summer, and they basically knackered it. Shrewsbury they killed us, and um and they're like, Oh, we're gonna have to shoot out. And I literally said to Brian Gun, you got tell Bealy, you got today, you don't sign us today, I'm going back. Did you? And the K. And then literally the uh literally done the deal there, and then went back and seen the chairman, and chairman said it was that just so you know that was that's what I was gonna offer you. And literally looked after me to be fair. That was it. He wasn't quick, he was the best man ever, wasn't he? But then but the best laugh was I seen him uh so I went back, I think it was like wherever it was, Lee 1 or something, I've gone to a game. I think I was doing the radio, maybe Carl. Yeah, right. Something on the radio. I was doing a game on the radio, and uh I walked in and he said uh he went, Yeah, I need to work. Tell him he needs so if you go and see him, you have to go and see him upstairs in the boardroom. So I went to see him. Walked in, he's like, I'm not gonna say you need to score three goals from now to the end of the season, but you've got six games left. I need you to score three goals before I get to the six. I was like, Have you got a bonus? You went, or have we? Have we? So and then that was you know and then off we went the rough Norwich, and that was as I say the rest of his history, as he said kind of. What I was gonna ask you about Norwich is you know, obviously, like you've gone to Norwich and that was Lee One, wasn't it? Lee one. So when you've gone up, you had doubters, didn't you, about whether you could do it. Yeah, always maybe not so much then, but when you went up again. Yeah, when we when we went to champ, I always had to think because everyone said, Oh, I didn't really do it when he was at Sheffield Wednesday, but yeah, that's what I mean. I was like 19 at first, and then and then I didn't get up with uh Forrest, they got rid of him, so why they got rid of him, and everyone was like, Oh, will he score gold? Um, but you look at the team though, like rounders and we'll be fine next year. I like the group and the people you brought in, Housing and um Bradley Johnson's and people like that, and you're thinking that we we'll be alright. But the same thing, like I didn't uh all right as in the managing the league, like as in we'll just like Fox in midfield. David Fox, a yeah. Um now we thought we're just gonna be fine, like we didn't I had no ambitions of going on. That's what I mean. Yeah, like there was no ambitions, it's gonna go on up. We'll just do what we do and we'll see where we end up. Yeah, but I didn't start the first game uh against Watford. Danny Graham scored. We got sky. It was afraid of night, isn't it? I it was the first game of the season. I didn't play because I uh I ripped my thigh in pre-season playing non-league, so I literally missed the first with a friendly now. Friendly, yeah. Like I was I know I pissed around someone in all the league. I was peeing around the warm-up, but I'd done like knowing you bang it into the ground and it was too sticky, and I got uh I ripped my thigh, and so I missed that. So I was kind of running late to it, and then I scored a I think the week later, I scored against Scumfort, but really good header from the extra box, curled it in, and I was kind of was just off fight. And who was who were front with that? Uh it was um yeah, a bit of Chrissy Martin, a bit of Simeon Jackson, a bit of like a bit of a mix. Uh we had Steve Morrison as well. Yeah, we had a good, we had a good group jumping with a good group of rotation. I like that much as Martin or the years. Yeah, then we had uh Chris Left to go Derby, and then we had uh Pacheco, Danny Pacheco came in from Liverpool towards the end. We had Volksie came in for a little bit towards the end. And this is on the Lambert now, because did he come in not long after you'd signed up? He came in three days. You had three games. Oh you just beat them and then they replaced the manager. They beat some of the the lads, didn't it wasn't that last yeah, so much been ringing them all summer? No, they beat us 7-0. First game we see, isn't it? 7-0. And that and then um Yeah, I was run and he came in. Mac and he on the wing. I Maca on the wing. They dropped loads, yeah. Because it the way Paul does it, right? So he'll go in, and the way he does his team shit, he just says surnames. So he goes top to bottom, and when he stops, that's the end. So you have to count where you are. So like you're thinking, damn, we just said 12 on the bench, right? But because so I'm going like Boyd, Lumsden, Holt, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, and then you're like, then Cully, who was really good, Cully's brilliant. He'd come in and say, We're playing the diamond, you're playing there, you're playing there, you're playing there. But bear in mind we had a squad of 30, and like everyone, there was like lads who played like last week who got gone, yeah. Uh played a game, we played a game. Well, the first thing he did, we played a game on the Thursday, called everyone in. What against each other? I he said we're playing chip pads. So he said we're playing three thirty minutes. Oh everything about that out there. I know three thirty minutes, yeah. They mixed all the teams up the chain and ground the two nets around the flexible. That's what we've done. So we've done three, we had three teams of 30. Ah. And then on the on the week, he said whoever does the best is playing at the weekend. Oh la bow. Truth is what Corey Smith? No, Cory Smith, great for that. Uh team, nowhere near it, started. Was his best year? I think he played 20 odd games, and then the championship came a bit too early for him. It was intense that game, wasn't it? That kicking lumps out of each other, as you say, young and that's cute. But that was to play. So when he done the game at the weekend, he'd binned off like 12 big hitters. Weshoolong wasn't it wasn't in the tip in the squad. Like, where's got that was against Wickham's first game it took over. Because I reckon. I think it would have been like laugh. Well, where's it? Where's it sent him to two weeks early? This is a shambles. Well, after the beat us, like he said to him, this is a shambles, what's going on here. And obviously, then like I'm where's like I'm trying to get out, which everyone knew where's the trying to get out. Yeah, so he was always looking to get out, and then obviously, like Red Lambert came in and loved him. But I only knew what's playing because the night before I got an um infection, uh, and like uh an ulcer. And so that um I'd gone to the hotel, I was staying in the hotel, a little right on the ground. I'd gone abscess, that's what it's gone abscess to back. I woke up about what 12 o'clock and I was like face was out with you. Went downstairs, said to the woman, you got your parasitic one? She's like, No, we haven't got any. You need to walk to the shop. And the the the main bars is a bit a bit like watching. So basically I had to walk to Bochegate, yeah. Walk to Bochgate to get from the little shop to get some tablets. Yeah. So bear in mind it's 1 30 in the morning. So imagine Bochgate at 1 30 in the morning. I'm walking there, getting this little thing, and I got told that if you if you scump up the the parasit one, put it in your thing, well it pops it, uh huh, but then it's in your gum. So that's the best thing to do. So I'm now like tracks it on like everything on, walking down at 1 30 in the morning, but again the next day, and then there's a few Wiccan fans like running around because they're walking back to the same hotel. I'm like in the street crushing this spin off. Imagine it. Something like this. So like I look like a whole board and we so literally going then you go. But this thing's bursting my mouth. So it's bursting my mouth. So I'm not honestly, I'm now like the drain going. And this gunk's just coming and coming and coming. So I'm never walking back to the hotel with these two Wiccan fans. And you uh grenade, yeah. Yeah, um, what's got two two faith? I've got all right, okay, of course. Well, like I'm walking back to a hotel at like two in the morning. And um, I rang the doctor like as soon as when I managed to get about an hour's kip, rang the doctor at like six in the morning, like messaging need to ring me as soon as you wake up. I said to him, I'm in bits. I said, Pick the mouth out of you. I can't get you anything to ten o'clock. So I've got a phone call off the gaffer going, you need to come and see us. I was like, Gaffer's had like an hour's kip. I'm in the office come and see us now. Walk down, and just so you know you're playing today and you're captain. Is that the first time you made your captain? Alright. And did you stay a captain after that? After that, aye. And I was like, that's the only reason you're playing. I was like, Gaffer, I've had two hours of sleep. Well, what do you need to sleep for? I was like, play the game and go back to bed. I said, What are you doing now? I said, Well, I haven't eaten and I haven't slept. The doctor's giving me some pills to bring them in. So he said, Right, get your pills, go back to the hotel, and I don't need to see you to quarter past two. When I'm gonna need name the team sheet. So I didn't I literally went back to I've had about two hours' keep, went back down and played the game, and then he dropped everyone. So I didn't knew he was a player because he made me captain. Did he give you like a reason why he was making the captain? No, I'm not, or did he just give you that band and say like I'm saying he said I'm Tony when you're getting in? You kept it, didn't you? Uh-huh. And that was it. So you do did you win the league, had you? Won the league, uh uh no, we came second after uh back. Back to back. Back to back. Oh, that's when they were talking on the whole. Did you think Premier? You went, right, now I might not I know you've got self-confidence, but people now he's gonna revamp the squad. Yeah, you know, thinking like oh bear in mind I was 30 then. Yeah. So we were 30 when you went in there. 30, yeah, 30. Jesus, I didn't know that. So I was like 30 then. So you're sitting there thinking, even like you're thinking, oh, am I gonna get am I gonna get goals in here? Well, what I'm not quick. Do you know what I mean? Like I can score goals, but I'm not quick. I'm strong, but am I gonna be able to run away from anyone? Yeah, I always have doubts. So I just had a like a good pre-free. Did you do anything off season differently now? The trend just done a bit more, just done a little bit more just to top up. But it was that point then where we'd got to the point where you didn't stop anywhere. Ah, yeah. I used to have two weeks, yeah, two weeks of like calming yourself down, but you don't you never went to rogue, yeah, and then then I kind of started you started back into it. So but yeah, he's doing more runs. No, but you still have the doubt. I think I think it helped I think it helped. We've got Wigan first game of the season at Wigan. I think that helped us a little bit because we got the nerves out because we was wigging away. It wasn't a massive, like there were four, but it wasn't any you weren't playing like Man C where you're like, wow, look at this. Um I think Wes Ulan scored a pen, I believe. Oh West scored, no, I was on Penns by then West scored. Um and then um, yeah, but like you knew you walked out and it was like cameras everywhere. Ah, it just was it just a massive you just knew there's boards everywhere, there's cameras. Even like the exposure on the your own ground, like just when you yeah, constantly someone there, another interview for this, it was just huge, and then obviously we played Chelsea the week after, and then I scored. You score, didn't you? And then get the earliest one, and then if you scattered it all. So you scored that was it, it was like your first away game. First away game. I tried you, uh jump terrible. It was edge of the ball because the ball came up there, got in the thing, and I volley it over made into the corner. Um and it was kind of like one of them, really. It's like you I played the game, it was like that was alright. Was it is that what your initial thought? I've been there, I've been there three years earlier and got dragged at half time. So it was a lot big there. I've been there and I've been there, dragged half there and four-nil. I was playing left wing then in my favour and got pinned. I was pinned at half time. So when you when you come off, you thought I can cope with this. I've done alright. I've done alright, yeah. We weren't big enough to. I mean, did they did they bat you in the game or was you pretty even or that was 4-1. It was when Busing was scored and he took the paint off the post. Remember, he zinged it and he took the. No, you're gonna be in the hazard and oh god, I know. I think it was Ashley Cole, John Terry Ivanovich, and uh Basing. But I didn't mean like score-wise, I mean like as in general play with a different level one time, you just watch them watching it. Like Christmas where we is uh safe, like knowing you'd be safe, are we saying that? No, we're uh we were never in a battle, we were always kind of in around it where it was kind of you a few wins and you'd be you'd be up and you'd be off. I think we're kind of in around that. We we had a really good but Paul Lambert and Cully were brilliant, right? So all they'd done was there was never like they're gonna he was he was always this is how we're gonna win. Yeah. If you stick to this philosophy, we might win. If you don't stick to it, we'll get beat, and if you do stick to it, we might get beat. But that's the only way we're gonna win. So that and everyone was in it. It's like the reason he was the best for me. So Lambert's the best manager for me he was because what he was brilliant, and you talk about bomb squad and players not being involved, and blah blah. You couldn't like you couldn't rest. So if you still hadn't played again, so best basically Simon Laprin, right? Simon Lapin played loads in League One, played quite a few in the champ, got in the Premier League, and been playing, was in the squad, but never he was in the squad but didn't get on the bench for quite a few of them. Played um we played QPR on bot on New Year's Day, and then um we'd all got off the bus. Laps had left his wash bag on that on the thing, didn't even bother bringing it out. Sat down and named the team, Lapin started. Lapin and Laps had how many bottom stuff to come credit? Yeah, but that's what I'm saying against um Kyle Walker flying down the right wing, or if it was and um but that was that was what he was like, yeah. He'd throw you always so training was always like you had to yield because he would throw you in from nowhere from nowhere, and you think you and he'd come maybe play you three games, he might drop you the week after, but you always had to be on the the you always had to be ready, and that's why there was never Phillips there'd be a few lads that weren't his biggest fan, obviously that's football, but um I think the way he managed the group as a collective to keep everyone involved and active and and feel part of it, like when we were at like Portsmouth when we got promoted to the Premier League, I think that was the biggest thing when we got close. Apart from I think Andrew Sermon and John Ruddy, no one else had been in the Premier League, right? Yeah. Sermon, Southampton, Ruddy. Everton. I don't think anyone else had been in the Premier League. So everyone knew, and we all were stupid enough, no one's buying me at the Premier League. Yeah. Unless we gotta get there, unless as someone went up in the road, we'll have a punt on it. Yeah, yeah. So we got when we got close, we were like, look, we got a we got a chance of doing this, like we need to like start doing it, and we just got a momentum, blah blah and got a momentum. And then funny enough, after being all them you I've only been I've only played at Portsmouth twice. The first time was when they walked past with champagne, the second time was when I was drinking the champagne. Good, which is instrumental. We well, we're gonna do a little bit after this. So I've got a couple of questions for you, the hit list. Dylan, Monday Club Haved the Sway. Oh, yes, size. Not drinking wise, you reckon. Thursday club, wasn't Monday? No, I don't think about drinking. He said was Monday Club a blow. What running? Yeah. Oh he's oh yeah. He was with the with Neil was just run run run run run. He loved it. On a Monday? Anything? Any day of the week, huh? Lenny. Oh I didn't see Lennon being like that, mate. Like Lenny was like Lenny's Lenny, like I played with him with Forrest, he was at Forest with me, so I knew what it was like. So you got there, he signed. I signed as I when I when I first went to Hibbs, the problem I had when I first went to Hibs was we moved back to Carloff, uh from Carloff to Norwich. Oh, right, guys. So I was kind of gonna I was gonna I didn't know what I was gonna do. I had I had a few offers at Colchester and Cambridge that were kind of close to getting done, and then he rang us and said, Do you want to come to Hibbs? And I just felt it was like a good thing and a good time, and I loved it. It was the best thing, one of the best decisions ever made was about Hibs. I absolutely loved it. But the deal was I wasn't supposed to train Mondays, so I was supposed to get up there on the Tuesday, then I was staying up Tuesday, went to the first Friday. Yeah, but the first few months he was kind of killing me because he kept getting in people in on Monday, and you'll do an extra run again on play and blah blah. And um in the end, I was like, we need to change this because otherwise, like my performances have gone all over the place. So that's when um I started doing a bit with Grant Murray, who was the 21's manager. So that's when I started tipping my foot into coaching, right? Yeah, because I was on the Wednesday, I started helping him on a Wednesday, so it worked out really well. But yeah, he was like Lenny was Lenny, like he could twist like that and change and scream and shout and be a different person all the time. Um, but he'd come in on like a Tuesday, and like Grant might have set up the session, and he was a little passenger and blah blah, and he was brilliant, and he like you know, because Grant was a good coach, he was a good coach, and then all of a sudden you're like, nah, we're not doing that. Lift them up, and we're doing this big game, full keep ball, full size pitch, blah blah, and I'm like, Oh, I don't need this today, I don't need this today, and um I he was uh Lenny was Lenny, do you know what I mean? Like we had so many arguments, and I fell out with him loads and stuff was you're older, you're older than you've seen it, do you know what I mean? So like and like we had great lads, Jason Cummings, John McGinn, that lived with John for the last month. I was there, just we had great good players, I mean, and my only disappointment was how it ended really. The club didn't want to give us another year because they thought it was too old. Yeah, I thought you were gonna stay uh 35 then. So I'd have took another year. And did you feel good in yourself still? I was flying, it was the best I've been because I'd got to the end where I just didn't really and I'd scored in the League Cup semi because he dropped us for some reason, dropped me and Brian Graham at the time we played, come me by yourself. I don't know why. And he dragged um uh he dropped grabbed dragged Fraser 5 after 30 minutes against his old club. Oh cheers. Not hamden. Not hamden, and then we end up going 2-2, and then um yeah, and then Offie they went 3-2 with a deflection, and off he nearly scored the book at the end and dismissed aida, making 3-3 and would have gone to Pens, but I loved it. Um hardest defender or best defender. Um I I the one of the best ones was I always thought was uh Distant still. The reason being is the reason being like I play against the good ones, companies and Ferdinand's and all them, right? Vidic. Vidich was there, I would play against him at Wembley for Wigan. Um the reason I say him is because I I remember trying to run the channel, I thought I'd dunning, and he was 36, I think, at the time at Everton. By the time I turned around, he was on the board and played back, and you're thinking to yourself, like, if you're that good at 36, like imagine what you would have been. Oh 20, 20, 30. They're all good, like 10 years different than company, company was but it's so difficult because you don't get a touch, like they'll stick there for 60 minutes and not do any defendant, and all of a sudden you get the ball and they scrambling trying to fight and get you up the pitch. Yeah, so that was my job. The Premier League was like, How long can I keep all of the ball for? And how far can we up the pitch to the attacker when I was very good? Yeah, um, until you said it, Lamba, but who after Lambert? Um probably Simo was good, but I didn't have Simo for long. Yeah, like it was good for like he said his technical education was brilliant. Yeah, um, I always say probably Kenny and Steve Parkin were very similar, but I need them because they were like the father figure at that time. Like Steve Park, I used to love food and different stuff. Like I said, for for three months I had a Chinese every Friday, that would be Christmas. I could done that on a Saturday. But he'd pull me up all the time, you've been out too much, or you put too much weight on, you need to lose weight, you look you're not looking sharp, and he'd dig me out all the time, even though I was looking at one point I was on the scales. I was I was remembering it was the skinniest. I've been at Rochdale, and he went, You were you were sluggish the last 20 minutes the other day. You putting weight on. I was like, I've lost weight actually. I will I don't know what's going on. No, he went out, no, he went he went, I don't know what scales you got, but they're wrong. Buy some new ones. I was like, Alright, I'll leave you to it. Well, at this at the time I was like, they were the like kind of five figures that kind of give me the nods, so they but then probably didn't see it. Any regrets? Last one, not playing for Carl, I think. Yeah, was I yeah, not playing even in last club or middle or whatever. Aye, this too. Well, probably them in Leeds. I nearly got I nearly got a chance to go to Leeds, and that was my dad was a big Leeds fan. What about your shin pods? I lost them, I need to find them. Oh yeah, I lost them. I but what were that? But the I had um the other one was fitting the the girls' names on, the other one was a Leeds badge with my dad's uh thing, and I I lost them. So I think that and Carl, Carl was a big one. I think to actually not wear the shirt properly and and play, we had so many occasions to actually go and do it. I could have sat four times, yeah, four times I could have gone. Even when I left Rochdale, I spoke to them and said, Oh, we don't want it. That was my era couple. I think the closest was probably closer was probably Neil. I think Neil was the closest where he was at 708. He was bad before we shrews be like, just sign him, sign him, sign him, sign him. And they're like, nah, we're not sure about the money and blah blah blah. And so I was like, well, I'm sure that they're totally right anyway, I wasn't worth the money out. Well, you've had some career aye, not bad, not bad at all. What more about it? How close were you spent for England? Or did you ever get a phone call on England? Or I the problem with England was the the game, the capell got sacked or whatever it was, and then there was a friendly game after that for England, and Stuart Pierce stood up again, and he called up all his 21s. No, no, no, that's so he called Subgetting a bit the same. Well, don't get this wrong, there's some good 21s he called up like, but he called up some of the 21s, and it was me and Danny Graham at the time where everyone was talking about us to go and get called up, yeah, and he never did. And the the moment I didn't get called up for that one, I was thinking in my head, I was thinking, if you're a manager and you come in, are you gonna take someone who's like 31, who's never never been high in the Premier League and never played for England to go to a major tournament with that pressure? And I kind of thought then I wasn't gonna and then I was praying because uh I got on quite well with Harry Rednard. So I was praying that I really get it. Harry gets it, I think I've got a chance, yeah, and then Warri got it. Oh yeah, War got it. And then and I think as close as I was, the you know you close the the ring you up and then ask for your medical records and then all got looked at and everything like this. John Ruddy obviously went, John went at the same time, which was great because John obviously got called up. Um, and then the only thing I was really disappointed about was it wasn't the fact that I get called up, it was the fact that I wasn't even on the reserve list. He put like he put Andy Carroll who got called up, he put scored four goals that yeah, yeah, and then Crouchy I think was on the reserve list. No, but no, I mean they were good players, I know what I mean. But I was just disappointed that I wasn't even on that list. I scored 15 goals, yeah. And then the year after, and Ricky got called up the year after, but I'd still got six goals the year after when Ricky got called up for the other one. Yeah, so you kind of think what wrong time, but I said I I would say look, if I was if you asked the lad who was playing a barrow, do you think you never got even a chance of getting called up for England? You're like that's my and I was nowhere near an England player. And to finish off, Luvier Ostler, you can bring us in 904. I've already done 805, it's whatever it was for Cavis so. Top man, thanks for that and cheers to Tony Everton and Everton family for sponsoring it, yeah. And we will get into that plug in the garden and record. Cheers.