The Feeding and Sleep Connection No One Talks About

In this episode, we’re diving into one of the biggest missing pieces in the early months… the connection between feeding and sleep.

We’re joined by feeding specialist Kimberly Wand to talk about why babies who aren’t feeding well often aren’t sleeping well, and what to actually look for.

We cover
 • Why frequent night wakes can be feeding related
 • What it really means when babies fall asleep during feeds
 • Signs your baby may not be feeding efficiently

If you’ve been stuck in short naps, constant wake ups, or all day snacking, this episode will help you understand why and what to do next.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Hey everybody, welcome back. I am so happy you're here today because I'm sitting with two of my absolute favorite people. One of them is Liz right near beside me. She's a sleep consultant on our team, owner of Growing with Hope, and our go-to for all things sleep and our friend, both of our friends, Kimberly Wand. And she is the owner of Feeding Tiny Tops. Hi, welcome.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

So Abby and I were just laughing because we probably spent half our day texting each other. I think I actually talked to her more than I talked to my husband. And we're either talking about babies or life. We figured we would just record one of our conversations with Kimberly because often I'll be talking to Kimberly about something random or Abby will be. And so the three of us together just felt like a natural step. Totally.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

So especially comes to those first six months. We know that it's such a whirlwind. And Kimberly, you are an SLP and a lactation pro. And we always say you're the missing piece of the puzzle. So a lot of our families come to us, you know, asking, why is my newborn doing this? And why are they snacking all day or why are they up a million times at night? I feel like they're starving. You know, there's so much going on in those first six months. You know, we always say that it's such an important stage and that connection between, you know, eating and sleep, it's it's such an important thing. So can you tell us a little bit about why that newborn till six months stage is so important when it comes to like getting feeding right?

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Yes. So I love that this is happening because I feel like I too am constantly texting back and forth with you guys. And it's not that I didn't know how connected it was before, but I feel like now that I have you guys as a resource and we've connected so much over these last few months, I I see it even more, right? And living through it day to day right now in my own life, it has made the connection even stronger. And so, yeah, those two things are so deeply connected, one impacts the other directly. So if a baby's not feeding well, typically not sleeping well, or vice versa, if they aren't sleeping well and getting good restorative sleep, they don't have the energy to feed well. And so I find that like digging deep into any subtleties of difficulty in those very, very early days are so important because they oftentimes get missed or dismissed. You know, it may be that the latch is painful and things kind of start there, or baby's not transferring well, and we kind of just brush it off because oh, baby's only 24 hours old, or they're only 48 hours old, but we we keep brushing it off and then we're seven days old, and then we're 14 days old, and it quickly trickles in and it starts to impact things like sleep. And so yeah, I think that oftentimes we as moms, as parents, and also as healthcare professionals sometimes dismiss things a little bit too much versus like digging deep into it right away so that we can get ahead of somebody.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

I see this so much with the families that I work with. So often have, especially around the four-month mark, like when I meet families at that point. Usually they're like feeding every hour overnight, and then wondering why their baby is feeding so frequently or why they're not able to sleep long stretches. And then we find out that like after we shift feeding and timing and volumes and the how of it, it it shifts sleep dramatically. So it's always really cool for me to see the cause and effect, and especially when I work directly with you or someone like you to like build something together. That's my favorite.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Totally. We also see like the tired eater. So, you know, the kit, the babies like falling asleep as they're feeding. So, Kimberly, why don't you tell us like what's actually happening? Like, why are these babies having to work so hard to eat and then they end up falling asleep? Like, what's going on with like the mouth, the like is the belly like that? Like what what is it?

SPEAKER_02 4:05

Yeah, so a lot of times they're not truly falling asleep. And I say that because baby will unlatch from the breast or the bottle and then it's fully awake and alert. What it is is that baby is fatiguing. And the difference between that is they're using so much energy reserve to get those muscles, those oral motor muscles moving that they kind of shut down and go into this sleepy state. So it is so much work for them maturically that then they transitioned to the sleep state. But they aren't actually most of the time completely full. Okay, on occasion they can. On occasion they can. And then I'm looking more at like, are they just not getting enough? Do they not have enough nutrition to then have the energy to do the work to eat?

SPEAKER_00 4:50

That's so interesting. That's like a light bulb for me, you know, because we just assume that baby's full, because if they unlatch or they stop beating or they get drowsy and kind of, you know, fade out, we assume they're like full, right? They've had enough. Yeah, they've decided. And then 45 minutes later, half an hour later, baby's awake and crying again because they're still hungry, you know. So we end up in this like cycle.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

And that's usually when they call us because we we can't sleep train hunger or discomfort, but we can give them the skills, and usually, like at that point in the process, once we start or once we look at things, we really I always tell people it's such a big piece of the puzzle with sleep, because if you're not you're not full enough to last for long enough, then you're not going to ever have a child who sleeps for any length of time. So it's always so interesting to me to see that.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Yeah, totally. And then so if if a mom is listening right now and she's in that like zero to six month stretch, and maybe her baby's fussy or the nights are just a mess, but they're not eating well, like they're fussy overnight and all night are just needing to be resettled and popped on, popped off. What are things that moms should be looking for, like in cut when it comes to like the oral motor function that would give us a clue that, like, hey, maybe there's something else going on here?

SPEAKER_02 6:18

One would be what you mentioned already is that falling asleep during a feeding, quickly transitioning to sleep, which is you know, from there we'd have to kind of dissect that to see what may be causing that. And it it really varies greatly dependent upon that range, right? Zero to six months is a really large age range from a developmental standpoint. That one month old is going to function very differently than the four or the six month old. Um, so lengthy feedings are a huge thing, and the earlier we can catch that, the better. These that are kind of snacking. So maybe they're not falling asleep, but they're only consuming a really short feeding. That is not a problem in and of itself, but if they're doing a short feeding and also not being able to sustain for a minimum of two hours between the next feeding, that's when I would think of it as more problematic. So I've had a baby, I had a baby yesterday that transferred three ounces at the breast in six minutes. He's having short feedings, but they're also going closer to the three-hour mark. They're getting what they need. You know, that's not the case for every baby because it is a dyad. It has so much to do with baby, mom, milk supply, latch. There's so much involved. So the short nursing session alone isn't problematic. It's a short nursing session with a baby that's also not satisfied, not sleeping well, not getting adequate time between feedings. Those would be the biggest things that I would say that I I find impact. Those like snackers or babies that are having difficulty getting stretches.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

And I love those things because they aren't scary medical things. They're just cues. There's plays that they're looking for that tell us that we need to do a little bit more investigation. I do have a question though. I understand that every baby is different and that different ages have different expectations. But what would be an like an appropriate amount of time for a baby to let's two birth it, be at the breast to have a full feed, and also take a regular average size bottle? Like I often will have clients who'll be like, it took me 45 minutes to finish this bottle or this feed, or it took like I once had one say it took like an hour and a half, and I was like, You need to go see my friend Kimberly. But like, where does that kind of fall? Is there some sort of like general rule or understanding?

SPEAKER_02 8:37

That's a great question. And yes, I would say on average, somewhere between 15 to 20 minutes.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Yeah, interesting. That feels like a much more manageable amount of time than some of the poor clients that I've had that are like battling to get a bottle done in an hour. And I'm like, you're missing up this struggle.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

Let's find something that works. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

And it's like when we see those that it's taking, you know, an hour or 45 minutes, that's when we say, okay, like go see can really, you know, because once you can help them eat more efficiently or, you know, figure out what the underlying cause is or like find the root, then they can finally take those long naps because they're fed and they're not up all the time snacking. And so, you know, it's like so great to have you as a resource. So I just want to say that we are so glad that we have you in our corner. And if a South Tampa mom, because that's around like where you are at, wants to have a look at how her baby's eating and figure out, you know, root cause and find what's going on, where can she find you?

SPEAKER_02 9:42

So the easiest and best way to get in touch with me is to go to my website, feeding tiny tots.org, and book a consult call with me, and there we can kind of discuss what the family's concerns are, what their goals are, and whether I'm an appropriate contact for them or not. If for whatever reason it doesn't fall within my scope because my age range is limited, or if it falls into something that needs a little bit something different, I always have a contact of people that I know and trust personally that I will refer to. That's perfect.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

And then also I have a question uh that we haven't discussed. So it's in Canada, I have looked and looked and looked and looked for someone who is a creature just like you. I say that because LPs, my experience, and Abby, correct me if you found something. We don't have the same role as you here. We have SLPs, they work with speed. We have OTs, they work with like my understanding is like the muscle function. And we have location consultants. We do not have one person who kind of does all of those things together, like you do. Do you see virtual clients outside of the state?

SPEAKER_02 10:47

I do not currently. I have considered doing some like parent coaching type things, but from a legalistic standpoint, my license only covers me in Florida. Um so I am always open to having like very general kinds of people over the phone, but I do carry very much. I believe that like the therapeutic portion of it is different than a parent coaching call, different than what I can offer to someone virtually. Getting my hands on a baby, feeling what baby is doing, seeing them in person is just going to provide a different level of care. So I think you know, virtual things are great, but I do think that they are limited in what they can provide. But for a family that doesn't have any other resource or ability, speaking to someone is absolutely going to be better than nothing, not having absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

I'm going to continue on my track of finding the trifecta, if you will, of people here that I can continue referring clients to. I even messaged you this weekend while I was in a client's house being like, This feels weird. I need it, I need a Canadian version of you, please. So I'm on the hunt. If anybody knows of anyone, please send them my way. I will keep a lookout. Thank you so much for joining us today. We hope that this felt easy and fun and like an easy-going chat. And if anybody is ever looking for any kind of support in the South Tampa area, Kimberly is your lady. We highly recommend her. We work with her quite frequently. And like, you know, please know you don't have to power through the exhaust plan. If your gut is telling you that something's off with the feet, reach out to someone and find some support because it doesn't have to be hard. We want to work for you.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

100%. And we we also work so cohesively, right? So, like when we find that there's something else on, if there's tension or reflux, we say, Hey, chiropractor, you know, here's what we're gonna recommend for you. If we're finding that there's feeding, that there we need like some more feeding support, you know, we refer out, like it's so important as families that you know that you don't have to just go to one provider for all of your things or just you know, assume that this is just how you are gonna function and how things have to be. There is support and there are resources. So we all do different things and we refer each other for that reason. So, you know, you don't have to push through the exhaustion, you don't have to power through, follow your gut. And if sleep just isn't happening, no matter what you try, well, that's what we're here for. Yeah. So thank you so much. Yeah, thank you so much for making the time to be with us. It was so nice to see you. We'll talk soon.