The Second Act: Interview with Elizabeth Coplan

Most people spend decades climbing, then call it a life. Elizabeth Coplan spends four decades in Fortune 500 marketing and high-stakes law firm PR, then makes a sharper turn: she uses those same skills to build Grief Dialogues, a theater-driven movement that invites people to look straight at death, grief, and love without flinching. 

We talk about the compounded losses that changed her path, including the moment she realized how quickly coworkers and friends can shut down when grief enters the room. From that silence, she writes plays that become an unexpected key: audiences laugh, cry, and then stay to talk, often longer than the performance itself. We dig into why the stage works as an empathy generator, what caregivers most often regret, and why acceptance near the end of life can make mourning less chaotic for the people left behind. 

Elizabeth also shares how her commissioned project “Honoring Choices” tackles end-of-life planning and advance care conversations, and why she adapted it across cultures, including African American and Spanish-language versions. Then we zoom out to the bigger theme of reinvention after retirement: how she finds her second act by asking what brought her joy at 13, what it takes to fund and run a nonprofit, and why she refuses to let “grief” become a softened, hidden word. We close with a practical preview of immersive theater, where the audience has agency to move, reflect, and connect, including upcoming Detroit dates and how to find tickets. 

If this conversation helps you, subscribe, share it with a friend who’s carrying loss, and leave a review so more people can find these grief, end-of-life, and second act stories.

Transcript

A Second Act Beyond Retirement

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Most people spend 40 years building a resume only to spend their retirement protecting it. But my guest today did the unthinkable. After four decades as a power player in Fortune 500 marketing and high-stakes law firm PR, Elizabeth Copeland didn't just retire. She redirected. She took the skills she used to build corporate empires and used them to build a movement that looks death and grief right in the eye. If you think your best work is behind you because of your date on your birth certificate, stay tuned. Elizabeth is living proof that your second act isn't just a hobby. It might be the very reason you were born. Now let's grow.energy. That's no negative, all one phrase. Do to expire listeners. Today, let's welcome Elizabeth Copeland. Well, here we go. We are here today on the Do to Expire podcast. I am so delighted to have my good friend Elizabeth Copeland here today with us, and she is a powerhouse. I am excited to not only know her, but to have the opportunity to just really allow you as the audience to know her as well. She's all over the place. New York, Costa Rica, wherever. She's she's there. And she's making it happen all over even internationally with some of the work that she's done. So, Elizabeth, welcome today to today's podcast. Uh it's so it's so great to see you once again, my friend. Uh to see you. So are you you're hanging out in Seattle right now, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Right now, actually, I'm on Bainbridge Island, uh, just outside of Seattle, yes.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

And how's the weather out there?

SPEAKER_00 2:27

I just didn't need to ask that because actually, it's a glorious spring day, no clouds in the sky. And after this, I'm going to go do my one huge vice, which is buy more plants for my gardens.

Losses That Sparked Grief Dialogues

SPEAKER_02 2:41

Oh my goodness. More plants. All right. Well, now that we know that you're a plant lover as well, we'll have to definitely get some tips on the next podcast. But for today's purposes, what we want to do is kind of dive in a little bit uh into Elizabeth's work, not only as a person who is really the founder of Grief Dialogues, which is uh a wonderful organization. She's gonna tell you a little bit more about that in a second. But uh also, she's been in the corporate world for 40 years. She was uh in the corporate world for 40 years and has done a lot in that area, and I think that some of that has fueled her work here as she talks a little bit more about grief and and her own grief, and we're gonna get into some of that now. But you know, Elizabeth, here's the here's the first question that I want to kind of just throw out at you. I know that a spark for your work in the grief area was surrounding the losses that you experienced in 2013, the tragedies that took place. I know that as your life has gone on and you've shifted your perspective in terms of how you look at life. How did those tragedies, those unfortunate tragedies, help you to get to this place where you are today?

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Right. Um, great question. Actually, it was compounded a number of times, so it kind of came to a pinnacle in 2013. My father died at age 65 in 1996, and my mom in 2001. And while those were very heartbreaking uh losses, particularly my father, because he had just retired and we thought we had plenty more years to go. But um I was able to weather that pretty well. That seemed kind of natural for older parents to pass on. Um, definitely suffered through grief, but nothing what I would say extraordinary. Then over the next several years, culminating in 2013 with three losses, including uh a horrific accident. A dear friend of mine's husband was in just one, a completely fluke accident. No, no, nothing that he did wrong. Um, and then the loss of my cousin, who was like a sister to me in to ovarian cancer, also, you know, uh, and then there were several other things. It also uh was the year that my then 88-year-old father-in-law said to me, I was asking him a little bit about what he wanted at the end of his life, or and what you know, did he want a funeral, did he want, you know, what nothing, something? And his comment to me remind you I mentioned he was 88 at the time. And he said to me, if I die, it will be due to a medical error.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

And I think that combined with all those other losses, unmore, I'm gonna say more unnatural losses. A friend of mine also lost a child during that time. Um, that compound was like, we're not even what do you mean if you die? I'm sorry. Death is the great equalizer, you know. And and then the the next thing that pushed me way over to start Greek dialogues was I was working at the time at the uh University of Washington School of Law as their marketing and communications director. And people knew I had been in California where my cousin was, uh, but they assumed I was on vacation. And when I came back, I saw a couple of people in the coffee room and they said, Oh, how was your vacation? And I said, Well, I was actually there because my cousin and she was in the final stages of her life, and I was there to help her. You know, my sister and I were both there to help her pass on and and uh help her her husband. They'd only been married six years. So um when I said that, they looked at me like, oh, I don't want to hear about this. And they quickly fill their coffee cup or for whatever reason they were in the coffee room and they'd leave. And I just realized not only is this something literally everybody's gonna do, and you will have you will suffer some or or work need to work through some sort of grief if you've ever loved anybody.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

It's they're gonna go, right, at some point. And this is something we all do and we all experience, but nobody wants to talk about it. So I wrote a short play. Actually, it's a it's about my cousin's death, but I turned it into a mom to make it a little more relatable. Yeah. And what I found when that play was performed was that people would come up to me afterwards if they knew I was the playwright, and say to me, Wow, that was a really great play. You know, something like that happened to me when my mom died, or you know, or my brother and I really got into it when our sister died. You know, that sort of thing. And I realized that my play and and and plays like it were there as permission for other people to share their stories. And that's where the whole grief dialogues thing came about. It's like, wow, if I could have other playwrights, other situations, not just my story or my voice, get other people involved, how great that would be for audience members. And that's exactly what happened when I started Grief Dialogues. We would do a talk back afterwards, and often the talk back was longer than the show because people just really wanted to share their stories, and that's what we we had provided permission for them to do so.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

So so it seems as though Grief Dialogues in and of itself is serving as a true catalyst for people to have these conversations, conversations that they may have never had uh before in their lives, or you know, before seeing uh a play or or reading a book. This has given them permission to actually express themselves. What a great way for people to actually come together and to really discuss matters in a very public way. Now that's the big part. It's very public and individuals are sharing things for the first time. How has that given you encouragement as you've moved along in in this in this area?

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Oh wow. Uh a lot of encouragement, especially when I'm thinking, oh my gosh, I can't do this anymore because it's a lot of work. Then invariably someone will email me or call me or run into me in the grocery store and say, Oh, I saw that, and that reminded me of my dad, etc. What uh a couple of things that that often happen when people so the the show is you know roughly an hour, hour and 15 minutes, and then we take a break, and people can go home. It's it's not like intermission and then you know part two. But they there is a talk back, and I'd say about 90% of the audience stays.

unknown 9:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

And as I mentioned, sometimes the talkbacks are longer than the actual show. But what I love the most is one, seeing people stay, because clearly they want to, because they could leave. And two, people leaving saying things like, I didn't expect to laugh as much as I did. Because these are some of these are um true stories, some of them are are enlightened stories, but there's always you know, there is humor a lot of times, even in the saddest case, there's humor. And so to be able to share all the feelings by having all these different scenarios, these different plays and poetry in there. Yes, uh, the feedback is just always tremendous. And actually, the the feeling for me is now that we're getting so many many requests for the show, that also must be because people are getting some real meaning out of it. Um, and I, you know, I don't like to say meaning making. That sounds like you have to have a purpose.

SPEAKER_01 10:33

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

And that's the beauty of these these performances, is that you can come and have no purpose other than to have uh an evening's entertainment. You know, you it's kind of a uh I'm actually working on a musical that's kind of a cross between terms of endearment and Greece, you know. Oh wow, the music uh from the 50s, but it's the sadness of the death. So so you can experience it's just pure art. Our our current immersive director, Danny Davis, that's what she wants at pure art.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

Um, I I want another side of it, but together it's it's a really fantastic opportunity for people to be able to talk about their own losses or not, you know.

SPEAKER_02 11:13

Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

And I have had people who said, Well, I didn't want to say anything, but I just liked being in the room with other people who had gone through similar situations. So yeah, that's what we do and why we do it.

Marketing Grief In A Death-Avoiding Culture

SPEAKER_02 11:25

You know, uh and this topic of really death in and of itself. I mean, you've moved into an atmosphere and an area where people are not clamoring to talk about this stuff, right? It it is it is taboo in certain circles. It's you don't say anything about death. As a matter of fact, I know uh many times in the African American community I've heard people say, well, you know, we don't talk about death because we we figure like it's gonna come faster when we talk about it. It's gonna manifest, right? And so people are staying away from this topic. Now, I know that there's been challenges for you, and you know, tell us a little bit uh about how your history as as a marketing exec and all of this stuff prepare you for the challenge of marketing in this area of grief and loss.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

Right. Well, that it has to be a challenge because um in the wake of life sounds hopeful. Grief dialogues, not so much, and I've I've actually gotten a lot of pushback about changing the name to grief dialogues, but I want to, I deliberately want to use the word grief because that is a physical feeling that you have that needs to be identified. The challenge is what is the pushback you get, and people not willing to come see a show or experience it and therefore still make a judgment about it. Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

And that part is hard. Um, I've never had anybody walk out of a show. It's very hard to get them to the show sometimes. But I think uh in fact, every case I know of where I really pushed somebody or twisted their arm to come, they've all said they were really glad they came. Um, I even had a show last May in Los Angeles. Um, it was in honor of Memorial Day, and uh four couples, young couples in their 30s came because their friend was one of the actors, and they really just came to support her. That's the reason why they came. Afterwards, one of them came up to me and they said, Oh my gosh, we are so glad we came. We we didn't even have any military family in, you know, to totally identify with some of the things you were saying, but oh my gosh, the the love, uh I we certainly love our family, et cetera. Anyway, they got so much out of it, and not because they came to to hear about grief or death or dying, you know. Um the word death, as you say, it people react like it's contagious.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

Oh, yeah, they're afraid of it.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

But I've had personal experience where when people openly talk about it, that those who are dying openly talk about being at peace, uh, you know, with their own death, being sad, very close. A personal friend of mine uh he was in his 70s and he was dying of pancreatic cancer, and all he asked was that his son and his future don-in-law didn't talk about the wedding planning because Mike wasn't gonna make it long enough.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

He wasn't gonna be there to see the wedding.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Okay, but that's it. Otherwise, he was like, you know, his normal self. And people the people he left behind have told me that it was his acceptance of what was happening that allowed them to have a much easier time with their grief. Do they still mourn him? Do they miss him like I'll get out? Um, are his son sad? He never gets to see his grandchildren. Yes, they are.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

But they are also at peace knowing that Mike was at peace. And the reason being at peace was he was willing to talk about it and talk to others about it.

Acceptance At The End Of Life

SPEAKER_02 15:04

Yeah, you know, I I had a uh a friend of mine some years ago who was in the hospital and she was um, you know, in a dying state, and her family just refused to listen to her as she was saying that she was ready and it was okay, and that she had lived a full life, and that she was not afraid of uh what was in front of her, which was death. So there was a tremendous struggle with her trying to convince her family that it was okay. And they didn't want to talk about death with her. They told her, you know, you're losing your faith, it's it's not, you know, you should be hoping uh for a miracle. And she was like, No, I'm I'm good right now. And that's something that is it's hard to deal with. Have you have you run into that a lot with families who uh just really struggle with with this topic? And um when one person is at peace, as you stated, but everybody else is like in chaos saying, No, no, no, this can't be. We're not gonna let this happen.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Right, right. Yeah, that case. I come from a very Catholic family. So, yes, in fact, when my cousin was dying, she she had been diagnosed with ovarian cancer several years prior, went through the surgery, all the chemo, everything, and it was a horrible time for her. The chemo was just the roughest it could be. Um, she came out of it clean, um, and then it came back. And when it came back two years after her clean report, she said, I'm not gonna go through that again. I'm not gonna do the chemo again. And the family was quite judgmental about that. You know, God created chemo, and you know, but the but the the thing, and and and myra was a deacon in the church, so it wasn't like she gave up her faith, not at all.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

The miracle actually is death, yes, the peace of death. It is going, you know, if you're very religious, it's going home to God, going home to whatever spiritual being.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

If you want to keep it within religion, it's letting go of the pain and suffering of this world. Now, her husband kept saying, No, but it's the pain and suffering in this world that makes us strong. Well, to a point, yeah, maybe, but there's a point where you also say, I'm good. I want to go on to whatever the next adventure is, regardless of religion or anything else. I'm I'm ready for the next adventure. If there is one, it doesn't matter. I'm ready to go. And I would say the last day of her life, and I was told she wasn't actively dying, but you could see sort of a the peace on her face. Yes. She was becoming more angel-like. That's you know, my I've witnessed I've witnessed that.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

I've witnessed it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

Yeah, so when she died that night, we weren't surprised. I wasn't surprised anyway. I think the hospice worker was, but I wasn't.

Why Theater Builds Empathy Fast

SPEAKER_02 17:51

That's interesting. Yeah. Well well, along those lines, I I know that the things that you are producing, the things that you are are creating are are helping to give those types of family members an opportunity to really discuss and talk about their own pain and hurt. And obviously, we've heard people have their regrets about how they responded to their loved ones' death and how they felt like they didn't support them in the dying process. And so, as it relates to theater, and I just I just want to go there for a second, why do you think that the stage is a very effective way for these conversations to come about? Because people will say, well, you know, I go to the movies or I go to a play to be entertained, right? And and and and we, you know, you and I have talked about, you know, the the term that I love, edutainment, which is what, you know, uh no negative energy is about, and and this podcast is about really uh educating people through entertainment, so to speak, or or entertainment mediums, uh I'll put it like that. And so with that, why do you think the stage is an effective way to do this when people want to go to just be entertained?

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Well, that's the beauty, quite frankly, of the stage is you can go just to be entertained. It's a story or it's a series of stories, and you can leave it at that, and you can you know applaud at the end and walk out the door and talk about it over coffee. You can also take the message that's being given to you and talk about it with your friends, your loved ones, just and not in a um, not in a oh, I guess I should plan for my death, but more in a you know, a storytelling way. You know, if that actor really resonated with me or that story about, oh my gosh, that's my sister all over again. I forgot how it was. It also um uh my my off-Broadway show, Till Death, was also showed the various uh types of caregiving that a family might be giving and how one will take it very seriously and do it like a job, and the other one will, and another family member might be the one hand hold hand holding. Uh and oftentimes they're both needed, but it's it's um I the thing I have heard uh a lot actually is when people say to me, I did the caregiving was so intense, and I'm gonna give a shout out to caregivers, was so intense, I didn't realize that it would have been better if I just sat by his bed and held his hand for a while. But there were so many other things that had to get done. Uh, that's the one regret I hear most from people uh who've seen either till death or they've seen some of these other plays, which says, I I wished I had just spent more time with him and not worried about cleaning up the kitchen. You know, cleaning up the kitchen means it has a beginning, a middle, and an end, and and uh you know, you you look at the clean kitchen. But when you're taking care of someone, you don't you know the end will most likely be death, and that's not always where you want to get to, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:58

So um and the kitchen will always be there to to clean it. It'll always dirtier at some point, right?

Audience Reactions That Changed Everything

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Yeah, right. But but even so sort of sitting back and relaxing and and not not not trying to create hu humor, but sometimes seeing the humor in it. When my cousin was dying, and as I mentioned, they were, you know, not hadn't been married all that long. Her husband was so devastated that he was really in the way. So I would give him assignments to like start cooking dinner. It was a terrible cook. Terrible cook. Um, but we'd encourage him, you know, and and he would go to Walmart and buy buy a fish steamer or something like great, fantastic. You know, my sister and I look at each other like, oh my god, that's gonna be awful. But and then that's kind of what I wrote about, right? And then I've had people say, Oh my gosh, yes, that was my that was my dad. He didn't know what to do with himself, and just relating even on those funny moments. Yes, yes, one little character, you just you know, and and I did have. I do have a short play called Hospice of the Love Story. It's two sisters after the death of their mother, and they they were both in the room when the mother died, but they remember it completely differently, which is very common. Very common. That's probably the play that I get the most feedback in terms of, oh my gosh, now I understand why my brother was saying what he was saying. Because he was there, but he's he said what he saw, and I said what I saw, and it was completely different.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

She was a pain. No, she wasn't in pain. We washed the sheets. No, we never washed the sheets. It was just things like that. So the it kind of being able to identify with the the uh entertainment part. Um, and I don't know, maybe I'm I'm putting too much work on the word entertainment, but there is a lot of laughter that sort of comes naturally when you are dealing with love and you know the end of life. There are some funny moments. But whatever the moment is, embracing that moment is basically what all these plays are about.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

You know, I I saw your great stage play, Till Death, and when I attended that, and I also had the opportunity to be on stage with uh Chad, the director. I think it's Chad Austin, right? The director of Till Death off Broadway in New York. It was absolutely fantastic. But what I was blown away by was the amount of people in the audience as we were discussing the play from the stage, which which really was very entertaining in and of itself. I mean, I've never been to a play that dealt with death, but it did have you laughing and it did have you you reflecting on your life, and there was some joy involved in that process. But to hear how many people connected with one or two of the characters in the play was essential. Do you find yourself really drawing on the experiences of others and maybe creating characters that kind of reflect who that person is and how they, you know, are dealing with life in and of itself?

SPEAKER_00 24:06

Absolutely. I Till Death is a good example. Um, there are six characters in the play, and five of them were people who were in my life.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Um, so I could really use that. But then I wanted to have one character, and I wanted that character to add, you know, dramatic effect. Uh I I wanted this to be an adopted child, a grown man at the this point. And I wanted it to be a deathbed confession of his mother to him saying, We adopted you. And at first, when I was writing that scene and I was workshopping it with other uh instructors and playwrights, people said, Oh, that never happens. Well, turns out it does. It does happen. And in fact, one of the playwrights in one group I was in, she said, Oh my gosh, I didn't I'm on my father's deathbed, he told me he wasn't my father.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

Wow.

Honoring Choices Across Cultures

SPEAKER_00 24:58

And he I she said I was 50 at the time. And then she told me her story. So then I did more research, and I was able to create a character that I felt in interviewing some of these people who had experienced it by interviewing them and getting their experiences. And then what was so interesting to me was when people would say to me, uh, I was adopted, or I, you know, we adopted a child. So I was I felt good about having really worked hard to make that character believable. Um, and on the flip side of that, one of the characters until death, the character of Lucy, is pretty much based on me. And and when people say, God, that Lucy, she's such a witch, I would be like, wait a minute.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

That's not Elizabeth.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

That's not me. But but uh but you were saying too about why theater. I think theater, because it's it's yes, you can sit on a big screen or you can be in your living room and you get those big TVs or whatever, but you're really not in it like you are a stage player.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

And every it and it's immediate. It is happening now. And anything can happen. Anything can happen.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

Uh you can, yeah. So in fact, I almost saw my play every single night because friends would be going to the play, and I wasn't playing to see it every night. But the beauty of that for me was every single night there was something new, something different. There was uh, you know, an actor would deliver a line differently than he ever had before, and it gave it a whole new meaning and it was really cool. So, um, so I think theater is well, it's immediate. Yes, it's right there. It is also uh the great empathy generator. Whether this happened to you or not, right? If the acting is good and the story is good, you can certainly empathize with whatever the the protagonist is going through, or even the antagonist is going through. So that's why I love theater.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

You know, uh I think that with all of the technology that's going on, you have AI and um really just coming in and very strong. People are dealing with, much like you know, what we're doing now on camera, uh I think there's going to be a rejuvenation of the stage play presence because I I think that you know when you get into a theater and you're sitting there, you can feel something that's different than when you're watching it on television. There's just something different about being in the space with the actors and having that experience. And so I also noticed too as well that when people leave the theater, you hear all types of conversations and you see people nodding, you see some people maybe crying, you see some people who are just in awe of what they just experienced and how it connected with them. Do you have a favorite experience that you had as it relates to a conversation with someone post seeing one of your shows?

Building A Second Act Without Regret

SPEAKER_00 27:57

Oh gosh. There's actually uh quite a few of them that come to mind. I will say actually, this what started out to be horrifying that turned into an really amazing conversation was Till Death. Um it wasn't opening night, I think it was the second night. But uh the end of the play where the mother uh tells the son, Jason, that he is adopted, um, and he loses it. He just totally loses it. And he feels betrayed, he feels like his childhood, you know, all his life he felt he didn't quite fit in, even though the parents were very loving and and now he knows why. And and anyway, he just lost it. Well, an elderly man in the audience yelled out, because of course the mother is saying, I'm sorry, that's not what I wanted, and the son is yelling at her and uh on her deathbed. Anyway, this this audience member yells out, but she loved you so much. And I'm sitting there right there in the theater, right in the theater, and I couldn't quite hear what he said, and I was like, Oh my god, he doesn't like the play, and he's now yelling at the play, and this is terrible. So, and it's it's at the very end, so you know, 10 more minutes of the play. And by the way, spoiler alert, that that doesn't get resolved. Um, that's one thing about when I write it, some things may get resolved and some don't, and that's life. You know, it's there's no happy ending bow tieing or anything. But then when I went out into the foyer afterwards, his family were waiting for me because they were very apologetic. But uh when I realized what happened, I said, Oh, this is this is actually a wonderful comment because he felt it. He felt you know the angst of the mom trying to justify why they never told this 35-year-old man that he was, you know, adopted on day one. And and so we had a really fabulous conversation as a family, and and so that probably is the one that sticks with me the most. Oh no, what have I done?

SPEAKER_02 29:57

That is a great story just to just to know that this gentleman was so into it that he couldn't help himself, right? He he just had to say something. And so that that is hilarious. And so, even with that, I want to just go just a little bit more personal with you as it relates to the Honoring Choices film. And I want the listening audience to know that uh Elizabeth really um in a very creative and artful way, put her father's process of dying in a play or on screen. As a matter of fact, on screen in a short movie form. And I thought that one, Elizabeth, this was phenomenal in terms of how you told the story. And uh you you are reflected as one of the characters in that particular film as well. The bossy one, right? The the bossy one, right? That's that's not Elizabeth either. Uh but well, Scott and I are talking about that later. But anyway, um but but here's the thing, and Scott, by the way, is her husband, and I want everybody to know I give a shout-out to my friend Scott as well, who actually has co-authored one of your projects as well. We'll talk about that in just a second. But I know that with your father's passing, it meant a lot to you to express the things that you and your sister went through as it relates to that. But I thought it it was profound when you actually allowed the audience to see that process happen as a reflection of various cultures. And that to me was important. So obviously, you saw a thread with your personal situation and you were able to relate it to other cultures and other people. Talk to us a little bit more about why you chose to go that route to display honoring choices in various cultural formats.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

Well, it it did start as a play. It was a play that was commissioned by Honoring Choices Pacific Northwest that helps people plan for their end of life. Um, and it was at their conference that we performed it for the very first time in February 2020. And we all know it happened in March of 2020.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

Yes, we do.

Immersive Theater In Detroit And Tickets

SPEAKER_00 32:14

So then I actually started to do the production on Zoom because it works, because those kinds of conversations, getting a terminal diagnosis and planning, those were happening on Zoom during COVID. Um, but what I found uh the original cast just happened to be uh a white man, elderly man, his two white daughters, and and a black doctor. That's just how we casted it. There was no rhyme or reason, just it was more based on age. In fact, it was totally based on age. So that was well received. And then um one of the uh actors I was working with on another show, um, Annelle, who is uh African American, she said, you know, this would be these are the conversations we try to have with with our family, and they just don't happen. The the father is just too stubborn. So she actually helped me write it to be culturally appropriate for that audience, and we had uh all black cast. And then um being from originally from Texas, I wanted to do it in Spanish, and that worked really well because the father only spoke Spanish, the daughters spoke Spanish to the father, but English to each other, and the doctor did English and Spanish as well. And then again, we we um you know, I brought in a um uh you know his Hispanic dramaturg who helped me do it culturally appropriately, and that one is also I really want to do that one again, to be honest with you, or even make a film out of it. But the the thing, the story itself is universal. How do we get our loved ones, our elderly loved ones, to finally plan or tell us what they want? Because we it's out of love. We want to know what they want at the end of life, right? That's right. So um I actually wrote this. Obviously, I was commissioned to write it, but I wrote it with my dad's story because my dad's story didn't have a happy ending. He never did tell us what he wanted. He went too quickly. And so this was my also cathartic for me because I was able to write the ending I wanted, um, as well as kind of a cautionary tale or how to get a curmudgeony guy to start to open up a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Um so so that's yeah, that's that's a very that show is probably one of the most meaningful of all the plays I've written. Um because it helped me tremendously myself.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Yes. And and it was it was beautifully written, well acted. Hats off to all the people who uh in the various formats were part of that because you had different actors, obviously on stage, film, and then on Zoom as as well. And all three formats were were effective. So along the lines of theater and all that, you know, plays have have what we call acts, right? And so we've entitled this episode the second act, and you are in your what I would call a second prominent act in your life, moving from corporate America to now being on the creative side of life and really helping to promote things in a different way as it relates to life, as it relates to how we relate to other human beings, so on and so forth. What would you say to someone right now? Because you started really making this shift in your 60s, right? Um basically. And uh some people get discouraged. They they're saying, Well, I'm too old to do this, or I don't have enough time to do this. And yeah, I mean, the name of the the podcast is due to expire, and so we all know that, right? We're going but we don't have to just sit around and wait for our expiration date to to come. And you're a great example of that, of not waiting until you know death is knocking at your door for you to think, oh, wait a minute, I wish I would have done this or done that. How have you fostered the attitude of living without regret? Living in a way such that you believe that you can still have an impact regardless of your age?

No Regrets, Gratitude, And Closing

SPEAKER_00 36:13

Yeah, that's a that's a great question. It actually just uh after being at the University of Washington School of Law, it was a pretty um high up position, and and you know, I felt well cared for there, and and the professors like me, and I like the professors, it was a really cool situation. Um and I had pretty much planned to retire there, and then things changed and so forth. Um and I had some health issues, so I had to resign, quite frankly. Um, and then it was like, well, it was a it was a pretty big commute to the University of Washington. In fact, I would often stay in Seattle instead of coming back to Bainbridge every night. So I thought, well, once I got my health back, I'll take a lesser job, um, maybe something on Bainbridge so I don't have to commute. And I did that and I really didn't like it. Um not that I'm so bossy or I have to be in control, but um, you know, when people half my age were giving me projects to do and and telling me how to do them and realizing, you know, you could do this in half the time and make double the money, you know. Um after about a year, I thought this is this is maybe I'm too caught up in my identity. My career is my identity. If I don't have that anymore, you know, who the heck am I? My children were grown, gone, and so forth. Um and then I started thinking about what I wanted to do when I was much younger. And I always wanted to be an actress, and I actually was an actress uh in my early 20s in New York City, and I often say one day I realized I could either eat or pay rent. I could not do both. So then I went to college and and had a corporate career. But I just thought, you know, what can I do with theater? And it was the grief of losing my cousin that was the initial impetus to start writing plays about it. I I felt because of health issues that I wasn't gonna be able to act. And directing is also very strenuous. So I thought, you know, I'm gonna write some plays. So it just it sort of evolved, but it really was uh, gee, what brought me what brought me joy when I was 13? Uh oh, being in plays. That's what brought me joy when I was 13, you know. So it was kind of that going back in time and and trying to remember what it was that I what my dreams were. What were my dreams, you know? Um, if my dream had been to be an astronaut, I probably would have been out of luck, but at 62, I wasn't gonna become an astronaut. Right. But I could have, you know, become uh an astrologist or something like that. We have a planet small planetarium here on Bainbridge Island. I could have become involved with them. Um, I was involved with the founding of Bainbridge uh Island Museum of Art. That was fantastic in 2013. We opened that. Uh but again, that was that was somebody else's dream to open that. Um the founder of Cynthia Sears, wonderful woman, bless her heart. And uh that was her dream, and I was so happy to be one of the founding board members to make that a reality. But that wasn't my dream. And so thinking about what th what would my 13-year-old Elizabeth want to do? And that's how I came to to this. And it just it kind of kept growing. And and to your point about do-do expire, you know, when you start something in your 60s, you go, okay, I got what, five good years, you know. So let's just get it all we've got and see what happens. And I just would throw one thing at the wall after another, and it all stuck.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

Then so then instead of focusing on one thing, I found myself focusing on way too many things, but I loved every second of it. And then we kind of narrowed it down. Um, I kind of kept a small board because I really wanted it to be my vision.

SPEAKER_02 39:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

Uh I have someone who I think uh in the next two years will be uh eager to kind of take over the reins of dialogues. I would I would like to officially retire at 75, so I got three years. Um but I did my doctor.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

I don't know. We don't, we don't, you know, we we we want to keep Elizabeth active here, you know, in this space.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

Well, my my doctor, I said to my my doctor not too long ago that I was thinking about retiring, and and he just started laughing, and he goes, How long do you think that'll last? And I exactly two weeks? And he said, I'll give you one.

SPEAKER_02 40:34

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 40:35

So, you know, when you enjoy something, whatever it is, you know, when you enjoy it, you don't want to let it go. You you want to do more and you want to improve upon it. You know, now I'm doing immersive theater. Immersive theater was not a thing when I was doing theater. So now I get the challenge of learning about uh immersive theater on the bedrock of what I know, which is theater.

SPEAKER_01 40:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

So um, so yeah, that's and I still I I did come up with one thing that it's just for me, that I don't um I don't look to be in any gallery or anything, but I really, really love photography. So I take pictures, but they're only for me. I'll share it with family or on Instagram or something. So that's but I'm not looking to open exhibit in a gallery. So that's that's my little that that one's a hobby. I guess the one thing I will say is uh about a year ago we were at a reunion of Scott's high school chums, and one one of one of his schoolmates said to me, Oh, you have such a nice hobby, meaning in a brief dialogue. And I'm like, oh my gosh, this is not a hobby.

SPEAKER_02 41:38

Yes, this is work. It's work.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

This is work, but I do love, I do love it. I do get such great pleasure. The the like I said earlier, every time I think, oh, this is just too much, the fundraising. The fundraising is the hardest part.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

I had no problem asking for money to build the art museum, but for some reason my own projects are tough, but it's a lot of work, but I do love it. I do love it.

SPEAKER_02 42:02

What I picked up, one of the things that I picked up from what you just said is that inner 13-year-old, finding out, you know, what what brought you passion as a as a young person and then living out that passion. And some people they suppress that child or they suppress that feeling that they had, thinking that, well, you know, I don't have time for that now, and I have to do more adult things, so to speak, you know, I have to work and I have to do this. Well, you know, this is work, but it's a work of passion. And I think that people, if they find their passion in life, if they can pursue that, I don't care what age you are, if you pursue that passion, then you'll be rewarded. And that reward can come in various ways, but most importantly, just the joy that you have of sharing your art and and your work with others, and you see the impact that it's having. I think that is truly one of the greatest rewards that we can receive as humans. Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:59

And it's hard when you have all the obligations, you know. I'm not gonna discredit that. I do have the luxury of you know, my husband and I lived very few frugally, and we we didn't want for anything, and our children didn't want, but we didn't buy everything either. You know, we didn't have the fanciest house or the car or anything. And and so when I did retire, I did have a luxury, a little luxury of taking some of that money and and being able to start this project. So um that I'm very grateful for.

SPEAKER_02 43:27

As we wind things down here, you mentioned the immersive theater and the immersive work. And we're actually bringing that work here where I am to the city of Detroit. And uh I'm excited about working with you on this particular project, uh, which is going to take place May 4th and May 5th, 2026. And it's actually at the Gross Point War Memorial. And so if you're if you're around the city of Detroit, in the city of Detroit during that time period of May 4th and May 5th, we would love to see you come. But I I want you to, Elizabeth, if you can just share with the uh the listening audience right now, when we say immersive theater, what what is that and and and how does it it look? You know, is it just a regular stage play or is it something different? What what's the big difference with this?

SPEAKER_00 44:19

The big difference is that the audience is in not necessarily I don't want to say they're involved, like they have to participate, but they don't necessarily sit down. We don't have that many chairs out. You're really a part of whatever the play is. You're right there. You can touch the actors even. Um and the beauty of our immersive plays, and and Danny was instrumental in making it so the audience had agency. So, yes, you're able to move around. You're also able to go to an another room to see another play in kind of a choose your own adventure way, but you can also go and sit and listen to the cello. We have um actually the cellist for the Detroit Symphony is performing for us. So it's by immersive, it means the the audience has agency to move around. We have some little activities or they can sit, they can sit it out. Um so they really it's it's however they want to embrace the show. They don't sit in a dark theater. They in fact when we do have done it in a theater, we put chairs on the stage. Okay so it's not it's not uh so you're in it, but you don't you don't have to interact if you don't want to.

SPEAKER_02 45:31

So so instead of us having front row seats, you're actually on the stage with the actors, if if you want to look at it that way.

SPEAKER_00 45:38

You can pull back and not, you know, but but it's like bringing you in to be eavesdropping, so to speak, on the situation.

SPEAKER_02 45:47

And this would be set up in different rooms where you're actually entering into a room where that particular scene is set up already and the actors are engaging and they're ready to go, and you just walk in and you can actually be right there front and center with the dialogue and the acting that's going on.

SPEAKER_00 46:04

Exactly. And then we have some things, it's all centered around some c very colorful ribbons that you know if if you want, again, there's no uh right or wrong, but you can write the name of your loved one and pin it to one of the colorful ri ribbons. Um we're gonna have another like an art installation kind of thing, a small one. So it you can make it what you want, or you can stand in the back and just observe.

SPEAKER_02 46:31

And I can imagine people being that close. For some of them, it could really impact them. Uh, will there be opportunities for people to talk about their feelings during this process of the immersive uh theater experience?

SPEAKER_00 46:45

Absolutely. We'll have some discussion afterwards. Um we during the show, because of the way it's done, they they may or may not be able to interact with the actors, but I don't want to say they won't be able to. I we've seen people like one one woman in one of the stories, we're not doing this one in Detroit, but she lost her husband in a motorcycle accident, and um one of the audience members came up to her and again shared a similar story and wanted to give her a hug, and that was great. That's you know, the actor felt like just so genuine that she had delivered a genuine performance. So you can interact with them, you can't hold them up from the next show to the next performance, but you can certainly interact with them. Uh sometimes the playwrights are there, and audience members will um talk to them about what they wrote and how they wrote it. So it's really meant to have, like I said, agency. Ask questions, talk about things. Um, yeah, the whole the whole part. It's not just, and that's why we do it immersively, is to encourage that kind of participation rather than just sitting in a dark theater and saying, that's our show for tonight, folks, try safely, you know. We really want them to feel like they can open up or ask questions or leave if that's right more comfortable.

SPEAKER_02 48:02

Okay. So May 4th, May 5th, 2026, 6:30 p.m. both evenings, right there at the Gross Point War Memorial. Where can they get uh more information about that particular experience?

SPEAKER_00 48:16

Um they can go to griefdialogues.com. Uh in the banner on the top, it says in the wake of life. It's a blue banner. Click on that, and Detroit is our next show. So as you scroll down the page for In the Wake of Life, you'll see the the Detroit show and it has the information and how you get tickets. Tickets are free. Um donations are lovely, acceptable. We are a nonprofit, but it is a free show because we want as many people to feel like they can access it as you know as they can, which is exactly we we want to share this beauty and we want to share this opportunity to talk about death because we're all gonna do it.

SPEAKER_02 48:58

Right. And you know, other side of that is that I don't know many people who would actually pay top dollar to go and see a uh play about death.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

Uh so well they saw you know terms of endearment.

SPEAKER_02 49:09

Oh, that's true. That's true.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

There's a lot of uh ordinary people. I could be able to do that. But you know what? The Titanic.

SPEAKER_02 49:18

Yes, exactly. But but this is worth it, though, everyone. I'm telling you, uh, even though this is at no cost to the public, this production is top-notch. This production has top-notch actors, a director that's top-notch. As a matter of fact, uh Danny Davis, I believe, is is she an award-winning Tony Award?

SPEAKER_00 49:40

She's an Emmy Award-winning Tony nominated director.

SPEAKER_02 49:43

Emmy award-winning, Tony nominated director, Danny Davis. And so uh, this is not something that you know Elizabeth and the crew just threw together in the backyard and say, let's just try it out. No, this is something that has a lot of time that has been put into making it excellent. And so uh we definitely want to invite everyone in the Detroit area, and if you're not from Detroit and you're gonna be in Detroit or near Detroit during that time period, come on through, get your tickets at no cost, May 4th, May 5th, 6 30 p.m., both nights, and just come and experience this great creative way of talking about grief and and hopefully having some meaningful conversations afterwards. I have one question that I want to close with Elizabeth today. Just one question, because although this is the second act, there's going to have to be a second act of the second act as we as we move forward, and because there's so much more I want to talk to you about. I just want to ask this one question that we are preparing to ask every guest on the Do to Expire podcast, and that is this. If there was one thing that you can think of in your life that you could change, maybe something that you regret and you could you want to change it, and you could change it. What would that one thing be and how would it impact your life today?

SPEAKER_00 51:07

Wow. Um, you know, there are a number of things that I thought I would change, but when I think about them now, that would mean that I wouldn't have the life I have now. And I'm very, very grateful for the life I have now.

SPEAKER_01 51:24

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 51:24

Um my first marriage was a disaster. Fortunately, there were no children involved, but it was a disaster. Uh, and I was living in LA, I was perfectly happy with my corporate job. And um, my then husband wanted to move to Seattle. I didn't. I had friends, I had everything I wanted in LA.

SPEAKER_01 51:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

Um, but in an effort to kind of keep the marriage together, I agreed to move up here. And after a couple of years, he hated it and he moved back down to LA and we no longer together. But if I hadn't come up here with him, I never would have met my current husband. Wow who had two wonderful sons.

SPEAKER_01 52:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 52:02

Um, if I had stayed in New York to become an actress, you know, maybe maybe I would have been successful, maybe not. I was also the managing editor of a magazine in New York. If I had stayed, you know, I I watched The Devil Wears Prada, the the first movie. I watched it.

SPEAKER_02 52:17

The second movie that's coming out now. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:20

Yeah. And the first one, you know, I haven't seen the second, but the first one that could have been my life as a managing editor. I could have been that Meryl Streep character. I don't want to be the Meryl Street character, you know, that character. I I'm I'm loving what I'm doing now with the family and sons and and beautiful daughter-in-laws. And so to answer your question, you know, I couldn't stop my dad from dying at age 65. If I that there's nothing I could have done there, you know. Right, right. So the one thing I wished I had more time with my dad, but that wasn't on me.

SPEAKER_02 52:52

So no regrets. No regrets. No regrets. I really don't.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

I really don't have regrets. If I think of a regret, it leads to something that came out of that that I don't want to change.

SPEAKER_02 53:02

So that is a beautiful way to answer that question. Um, and I I know that to our listeners, that has to be inspirational to know that you know we say something in the in the spiritual area that all things work together, right, for the good of them who uh love God and are called according to his purpose. And so we hear that and we say, wow, okay, if this had not happened, then this may not have happened, and then I may not be where I am today. And so so that's a great way of looking at life. So I thank you for that answer. And I'll thank you for the.

SPEAKER_00 53:35

Can I tell you one more uh little story on this on this topic? So my eldest son and his wife moved to Kingston, New York not quite a year ago, and he's the head chef at a a restaurant there that he's put on the map. He's just doing great, and she manages the restaurant. Uh, so they're just doing super. Um, so uh Scott had been married before as well, no children. Okay, and his ex-wife went moved from Seattle. Um, I think she moved to DC for a while, but then she moved back home to Kingston, New York. So I had told Spencer when he and Jordan moved to Kingston, New York last June that if you ever run into this woman, you have to say thank you. And Spencer was like, Why did I say thank you? I said, Because if he she hadn't divorced your father, you wouldn't be here. Well, that person came into his restaurant the other night.

SPEAKER_01 54:23

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 54:25

He took a picture, obviously zooming in, and sent it to Scott and said, Is this your ex-wife? And we looked and you know, the eyes are the same. We went, Yep, there she is. So um apparently they enjoyed their dinner. Spencer didn't say anything, although his name is on the menu and Copeland is spelled rather unusually. So who knows what she thought. But uh, but you know, you gotta you gotta say thank you for the blessing of getting the dumped, you know.

SPEAKER_02 54:49

Yeah, yeah. Well, listen, if she's listening now or anybody else listening now, look, we send our thank yous as well for helping to impact our lives and the way that uh we're impacting or being impacted positively by you and Scott's work. So appreciate you both. We're gonna talk a little bit more next time about your work with Scott and and all of that stuff, too, as well. But I want to thank you for taking the time out today to be a part of this podcast and to uh really inspire many people who are gonna listen to this and to help them to see that they too can have a strong, powerful second act in life. That's what we want to uh have for everyone. So uh any any any parting words for anybody today?

SPEAKER_00 55:31

I just want to say I'm honored to be on your show, Corey. You know how much I appreciate you and your work. Um, people out there, if you think about wanting to do something, give it a try, you know. Um it maybe it didn't. I told him Scott when he was about to retire, he had to pick three things he was gonna do, knowing full well that at least two of them were gonna fall to the wayside. But you know, that old saying, you know, reach for the moon, and even if you fail, you fall among the stars. Yes, that's kind of my motto.

SPEAKER_02 55:59

So all right. Well, due to expire listeners, that's it for us today. We appreciate you being a part of this experience. My friend Elizabeth Copeland, thank you so much for uh taking the time out to share your wisdom and your your words of encouragement to the listeners today. And uh with that being said, we'll talk to you next time. Have a great one, everybody.