No Negative Energy Presents: The "Due To Expire" Podcast with Corey L. Kennard
That carton of milk, that coupon, that prescription—they all come with a warning: "Due To Expire." It’s a reminder to act before it’s too late.
But what about the most valuable thing you possess? Your life!
This show is built on one powerful, undeniable truth: we are all living on borrowed time. This isn't about fear; it's about fire. Corey reframes mortality not as a tragic end, but as the ultimate motivator to live with intention, passion, and urgency.
Stop counting the days and start making the days count.
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No Negative Energy Presents: The "Due To Expire" Podcast with Corey L. Kennard
Interview: From Foes To Friends - Warnings and Wisdom From An Unlikely Artistic Duet
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Time is moving, and we do not get to hit pause on history. We sit down with two Detroit elders who refuse to let hard truths fade into the background: actor Dwight Stackhouse and award-winning poet and ghostwriter Alexander Payne Morgan. They bring a snippet of their powerful two-man play to the mic and then unpack why they built it in the first place, a Black man who grew up “innocent of prejudice” alongside a white man raised in Savannah, Georgia to be a white supremacist, both determined to tell the real stories America keeps trying to edit.
We talk about what happens when a country grows comfortable with lies: book removals that erase history, convenience that numbs outrage, and a political project that aims to undo civil rights and voting rights gains. Dwight names the danger of complacency, and Alec spells out why he thinks the moment is urgent, not abstract. We also dig into one of the hardest artistic choices they made: using brutally accurate language instead of euphemisms, because softened words can create softened responsibility.
Alec shares what changed him, including the personal cost of separating from family narratives and the impact of reading Martin Luther King Jr.’s Letter from Birmingham Jail. Together, we wrestle with a practical question: how do you invite honest dialogue about race without shutting people down, and how do you stay resilient when you feel exhausted?
If you believe art can be activism and that voting rights matter, listen, share this with someone who needs the push, and subscribe and leave a review so more people find the conversation.
Urgency, Legacy, And The Guests
SPEAKER_00Time is moving and none of us are getting any younger. Welcome back to the Do to Expire podcast. I'm your host, Corey Kennard. Today, we're talking about urgency. But not only urgency, we are also talking about legacy. Because when you realize your time is finite, you stop sitting on your gifts and you start speaking the truth before it's too late. My guests today are two elders of the Detroit community who are living with that exact fire. They are just letting history fade into the background. They are using their art to sound the alarm on the civil liberties we are at risk of losing right now. Ten years ago, a black man who grew up largely shielded from the sharp edges of prejudice met a white man raised in Savannah, Georgia. And he was raised to be a white supremacist. They collided in a poetry workshop, looked at their contrasting lives from the 1950s to the present and decided to turn raw, uncomfortable history into a masterpiece. Over five years in development, their groundbreaking full-length play, a powerful two-man show, has been captivating audiences across Detroit from the Aretha Cafe and the Scarab Club to the Charles Wright Museum of African American history. The first person I want to introduce you to is a Kreske Fellowship winner, a brilliant actor, and a powerful voice for truth. Please, let's welcome Dwight Stackhouse. And sitting right next to him is an award-winning poet, a professional ghostwriter, and a man who turned away from a legacy of hate to write a new story. Let's also please welcome Alexander Payne Morgan. Gentlemen, welcome to the Do to Expire podcast. And now, let's grow.energy. That's no negative, all one phrase, dot energy. Well, due to expire podcast listeners, uh, we have a treat for you today with these two gentlemen that uh I want you to just learn more about and know more about Mr. Dwight Stackhouse and Mr. Alexander Payne Morgan, who we will affectionately call Alec. And so, with that being said, uh, welcome, gentlemen, to the podcast today. How are you both doing? Doing good. Doing good, Corey. Thanks for having us. Oh, it's definitely ran to go. All right, ran to go. That's what I want to hear. Thanks, Alec, and thank you, Dwight. Um, we are excited to present this podcast to our listeners because this for Due to Expire is more of a groundbreaking
A Stark Excerpt From The Play
SPEAKER_00interview. This is an interview that that really deals with the urgency of dealing with some of the issues and the situations in society as we see them today. And these two gentlemen are going to really set us up nicely today by actually opening up with a performance from their two-person play that they are presenting. Now, it's broader than that, but today it's going to be a two-person play, uh, and they're going to give us a snippet of what this feels like uh if you were sitting there listening to them, uh going through this dialogue, this deep dialogue that I am just excited about everybody hearing and listening to today. So, Dwight and Alec, do you want to set this up or you just you guys just want to jump into it?
SPEAKER_03We'll set it up as we jump into it.
SPEAKER_00All right, all right. Well, let's get ready to go. Due to expire podcast listeners. Here we go. Let's listen to uh the wonderful uh snippet from these two gentlemen today, and then we'll get into some questions. Go ahead, gentlemen, take it away.
SPEAKER_03Okay, well, to start off with, the epigraph is a black man who grew up innocent of prejudice, and a white man raised to be a white supremacist, find common ground, exchanging their life stories.
SPEAKER_02We are two old men, one black and one white, and we are on a desperate mission. The young people do not remember white only. They do not remember the whole town gathering to mock the screaming torture of a burning black man, accused of rape, but innocent of it. They do not remember being taught lies about the moral and intellectual inferiority of Negroes, the casual lies that justify the injustice and the exploitation.
SPEAKER_03But we do remember, and we see it all returning. So we want to sound a warning, sound it simply by telling the true stories from our personal past of what we should never return to. We both have a pastel of stories. Dwight will go first.
SPEAKER_02My very first encounter with the hard realities of American racism was at a family reunion in Detroit about eight years old. It started out fine. It was playing with some of my cousins, my age, who had come up from Virginia, although by now more and more of the family had left the South and was living in Detroit or somewhere else north of the Mason-Dixon line. But it's 1955, and Emmett Till had just been brutally murdered in a deep south lynching. He had been visiting family in Mississippi from his home in Chicago, just as our family went south from time to time to visit our relatives in Virginia. His murder was naturally on everybody's mind. Of course, we children were unaware, but we could tell that the grown-ups were upset about something. They they huddled in groups and whispered things they didn't want us to hear. But one of the grown-ups was not so discreet. The talk of him and Till had no doubt stimulated the memories of my great great Uncle Custis, who finds us kids playing and decides to tell us his story.
SPEAKER_03So Dwight now stands and transforms himself into 90-year-old Uncle Custis. I was your Uncle Custis.
SPEAKER_02I'm in my 90s now. So old and grown folk around here just ignores me. They thinks I done lost my mind and ain't no hope for me. I is in a bad way. I I know that. But all my members ain't gone. They broke me. But I done lived through some awful things. I done seen some awful things. Well, I done seem making just wanna wanna cry. See, I was born in 1865. Just after slavery time. But I ain't gone yet. I've got memories, stories and such. But one story. Can't turn it loose. Won't go away. I need to tell y'all. Y'all need to remember this. White man can come take your woman. He takes her in the bushes down and do what he won't with her. Do what he won't. Right in front of you. What nothing you could do.
SPEAKER_03What nothing I could do. Dwight now stands upright, loses the walking stick, and shakes shakes off the frailty of Uncle Custis.
SPEAKER_02Now I can see the brokenness in his face. I can hear the grief in his voice. And even though at eight years old, I have no idea what he's talking about. His strong emotions, his enormous pain marked my memory of him. Remember this. I realize he's telling me. Remember this for as many years as you need until you can understand it. Now Uncle Custis died soon after. But his story did not die with him. It was on my mind, on my heart, carry, and eventually to comprehend. Now, to give you an example of how unbelievably innocent I was back then, how impossible it was for me to understand what Uncle Custis was talking about. When he said white man, I had no idea what a white man was. Now I know these days we scoff when some liberal-minded person says he or she doesn't see race. But quite literally, I did not see race. I had not been taught to see it. Of course, that didn't last. But for a while, it was true of the little boy that was me.
SPEAKER_03See, my childhood experiences were the exact opposite, Dwight. I was born in Savannah, Georgia, in a completely segregated white neighborhood. I was told that slavery was a benign institution where everybody, even the enslaved, was happy. Smile if you want to, but that's what my grandmother told us, and nobody contradicted Granny. Of course, she grew up in a different world. I call this story Bill of Sale. My grandmother talked as if her father had been some kind of planter, but really he was just a small time Tennessee farmer with one mule and a few hands. Maybe he treated his men even better than such men are treated today. It's always been hot, miserable work for little reward, even if today it's not haunted by nightmares of escape, capture, and return. I've got a bill of sale, I'm holding it in my hand. It reads eighteen sixty two, Ryan's Mart Charleston, one Negro. That year my great grandfather had only a few years left to enjoy his status on the edge of gentry before the Thirteenth Amendment read the slaves in eighteen sixty five. After that, my grandmother, his daughter, told me he did not hesitate to shoot any black man who dared show up at his front door. So that is our excerpt.
SPEAKER_02Wow. Hope you enjoyed it.
SPEAKER_00Wow, I have to say that that was powerful to listen to, journeying back to times that you've had have experienced as uh human beings.
Why They Teamed Up To Write
SPEAKER_00Um and and Dwight as a black man and Alec as a white man here in America, um listening to that begs the question that I think our listeners have, and it was simply this what motivated the two of you to really come together to create such a powerful, impactful dialogue?
SPEAKER_03Well, the here is we started out in a writing workshop, and what was notable is that we both were writing about racism and racial prejudice and racial violence. And uh I have thought if we had met, but when I was 12 years old, we would have been willing to debate the rightness of segregation and get in a fight over it. But uh uh by the time we met, uh I had come to my senses, but we both were very concerned about the same topic, and it was obvious that that we were. And friends in the in the workshop said, Well, why don't you guys do a do a show together? Why don't you read your stories? I mean, you just naturally uh match. And and so, you know, we we did.
SPEAKER_00Fate just brought you together, basically, at this point in history, to really speak to those who are experiencing a lot of the things today that the two of you experienced growing up here in America.
Why The Warning Feels Immediate
SPEAKER_00So why this exact moment in history do you think your play is is relevant for people to hear today? Because it sounds like, you know, there there's a fear of losing so many things that we've struggled to fight against in this country, racism and sexism and all of the other isms. Uh, why do you think at this particular moment in time in history, your dialogue and your play is relevant for people to hear and listen to today?
SPEAKER_02Well, I'm gonna let Alec expound on this, but let me let me say it this way. We have been, we are being lied to. Um, and that lie is not just perverse, it is utterly damaging, not simply to black people, not simply to white people, but it's damaging to the culture of the United States. It flies in the face of what this company claims to be, what it claims to represent life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, and so on. The lies need to be undone. I mean, that I realize that's a bit too general, but I'm sure Alec will have more to say about it.
SPEAKER_03Well, I'm yeah, I'm not gonna beat around the bush here. Uh the Republicans have publicly said that they want to undo all the legislation of Franklin Roosevelt and Lyndon Johnson, the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Right Act of the 60s, all that progress specifically, they want to undo it. They've chosen Supreme Court justices who are ready and willing, they've already started to do it. And I think now really is the moment. We thought we had made so much progress. I mean, you know, I was a kid in the 60s and the 70s and the 80s, and we went through the whole thing. And now at this moment, to see that being taken apart and the intention to take it apart is just heartbreaking. So the sense of urgency is right now, we've got a few years uh before we lose the ability to uh to do anything.
SPEAKER_02Well, we we are losing it. Um, and it it's about the lines that I suggested earlier, the dismissal of the truth. And it's it's utterly deliberate. And I'll tell you what makes it worse. I don't know if anything can make it worse. It's all so bad. But there is a requirement of ignorance in this uh in this corrupt administration that's running things now. Think about the simple the simple removal of books is the removal of history. And the the the truth is we have grown comfortable with the lies. We are too many of us at least are choosing ignorance. It's willful. It's also linked to something that I don't think people consider um at all, and that is uh the convenience. If I can persuade you by diverting your interests with, let us say, credit cards or automobiles, I can I can seduce you by Amazon and a full grocery store, little things that make it seem as if all is well. You know, I can go buy a steak if I want to. We we are so, how should I put this? Spoiled. Spoiled, a good word. And we we we have bought into the madness, and that makes us complacent.
SPEAKER_00Do you think that the spoiling that you talked about and the ability for some to move around and move about freely, say, people of color who feel like you know everything is okay, or our white brothers and sisters who may feel like, you know, what's the use of going, you know, back in history and looking at all of this stuff? What would you say to those individuals who just feel like that everything is is just fine now? And why are we even bringing up stuff like this and uncovering these old wounds that people are feeling? Isn't it just going to make it worse?
SPEAKER_03No, it's it's going to get worse and worse if we don't do something. It's already begun. I mean, look at the the current attempts to suppress the vote. You're going to experience that now in about six months, when the when the suddenly the voting lines are so long that you have to wait all day to cast your ballot. Or if somebody comes up to you and says, Where's your passport? Up, don't have a passport, guess you can't vote. It's going to, you're going to see it. You know, the time is now to become aware. Thinking about it, talking about it, looking at it isn't going to make it happen. It's already happening. We need to make it stop happening. Yeah, I don't know what's worse.
SPEAKER_02Um the complacency or the indifference. I know they they seem quite similar. We we must find a way to, if you will, read the labels, uh, read the fine print. We need to understand that we are purposely being deceived. And as for our white brothers and sisters, the deception appears to work for them. It appears to work for them. But what they cannot see, which is in the fine print, what I mean by reading the labels, is that this is not about you being white or privileged. It is about the people who are privileged, by which I mean who are moneyed, who have the money, the power, and the guns. And however deceived our white brothers and sisters, or any of our brothers and sisters, however deceived we are by the conveniences and the ability to own a gun and to go shopping and to drive a car and to have a credit card, you are not important to these people. You are not important to the people in power. And soon that will be clear. It will be unclear. Undeniable, but it may at that point be too late. The thing we need to challenge, the thing we need to avoid, is becoming complacent or even worse, cynical about what is so clearly all around us.
SPEAKER_03We're surrounded by this madness. Well, and you have to pay attention to the fact, I mean, innocent civilians are being shot on our streets. It should be impossible. I mean, it should be unthinkable, but it's not unthinkable, and it's it can continue and be much worse. And that's part of what we have to hit off. And we're not just shooting people of one color. It's anybody who gets in the way. So you think about Pretty and what was the woman's name in Minnesota?
SPEAKER_02The two that were brutally murdered, obviously murdered, these were white-skinned people, but they appeared to be for the people. And that means they're expendable. We got to get rid of them. Wow. And they they got rid of these people with impunity. Clearly murdered both of them.
SPEAKER_00And nobody charged. Nobody? Well, you know, Alec, I I you know, and I need to ask Alec this question.
Complacency, Book Bans, And Power
SPEAKER_00And I think this is uh a very important question because Dwight, you just said something that that really I believe um just sparked something in me, and I want to hear from Alec in terms of growing up, Alec, as a person who was exposed to and lived around white supremacy. How did you get to this point now of seeing that this is not right? So, what changed you in the process in terms of you now teaming up with the white and wanting to give the world a different message, a message of of love uh and support for all, especially the poor and vulnerable in society?
SPEAKER_03Well, you know, this is a long story, so I'm gonna I'm gonna try to say a few things that give you a sense. First of all, my grandmother taught me that there's nothing wrong with slavery, and it really was stupid to get rid of it. And remember, her father was a slave owner, and maybe her saying that didn't exactly make sense, but she said it, and I was a little kid, and I heard what she said, and my mother didn't say she was wrong. So we're talking about going against your family, and eventually I had to go against my family, and you know that's a very big deal. At the same time, I uh I went to the University of Georgia, and you might say, well, you know, that's full of a lot of racist uh people and so forth, but frankly, a lot of the professors were not racist, and my political science professor assigned us to read some readings, and one of them was uh Martin Luther King's letter from Birmingham Jail. And you might say, well, what's the big deal? But I read it, and it really hit me. And if you read that, he is so clear and so explicit about what's wrong, and he's not really blaming anyone, he's just saying, really, you know, join me. And that was very strong because I had some, I ran into some liberal people at college, but they just said, you know, to hell with you, Alec, you're on the wrong side. And so, where was I gonna go, you know, with that? I mean, uh it, but but King really did it, and I know it may be a cliche, maybe people even tired of hearing about Martin Luther King, but I swear I saw the light. I cried when I read his, and it really did make a difference. Now we can go on from there. I mean, I'm just giving you a few highlights here, but I think you and I had to I had to separate from my family. I had to separate uh mentally and emotionally, and frankly, I had to leave the South. I had to go 800 miles away. You know, this is not an easy thing to do. And I felt guilt. I felt a lot of guilt at um at abandoning my family.
SPEAKER_02What I like about your question, Corey, and Alex's answer is one of the great difficulties we have with this play, um, these stories, is the struggle of finding a way to say it. How do we get people to be brave enough to consider this emotionally and intellectually? Um, you know, you wipe out the history, you give half of the population great, great privileges, so there's no motivation for them to think about this at all. So one of the goals of this storytelling that we're doing is we're looking for a way, you I think you'll agree with this, Alec, and Alec is a the prime example, he's the best example I've ever run into, of finding a way to speak honestly about this history that the whole country is trying to deny. How do you get people to sit, you know, productively and peacefully in a room and discuss this devastating truth?
SPEAKER_00Right. And I think that's the big question that we all have is what is the best way? I mean, there's a lot of politically correct strategies that are out there. And um, the question is, are those strategies moving the needle? Are people really being impacted, or does it take uh the raw approach that the two of you have, the honest approach that the two of you have to make a difference? And so, even with the the title of your play, uh the in-word duet, as we know, the in-word is a very um negatively charged word and painful word in society. And Alec, from hearing the use of it and and you know using it to Dwight, you hearing it and and and and um it being directed at you in a negative way, why did you choose to put this word at the forefront of your of your play or your artistry?
SPEAKER_03Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna say something and then Dwight can can say his bit. I think when you're telling these stories, if you use euphemisms, and I've tried to do it, it it really, it really doesn't it doesn't sound like you're you're you're being serious. It often just sounds like a joke. But if you if you use the words that were used in reality, it is strong and shocking and real. And when you make these substitutions, it sounds ridiculous and weak and even confusing. So this is about clarity, and we have to be clear too about the the roughness, the brutality. Uh we really this isn't something to talk about politely.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03And and I feel I feel strongly about the political correctness when it shuts down honest
Leaving White Supremacy Behind
SPEAKER_03talk. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I I will say a couple of things in response to that question. One, I I do this fairly often, but only in recent years. I try to remember the first time I heard the word nigger. I never heard that word in my youth. Um, certainly I never heard the word before the age of 20. Wow. Now that that is gonna be hard for some people to believe, but that is the truth. And now I I think what this the hip hop generation, uh, what's the other phrase for the hip-hop people? What do they call themselves? Um, I've I don't speak that language, so I'm not real sure.
SPEAKER_00Well, that that that that's good enough for today, the hip-hop generation, right, and it works.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, they have made the effort to turn that word into a term of endearment. I've heard that the word is synonymous, and this cannot be denied, with the word slave. And there is no way the word slave could be a term of endearment. Wow. Now, here's another interesting aside, and I don't know what to make of this, but Alec and I have witnessed it. The the greatest opposition we get to this title. I don't know, did we fight about this title at all? I don't think we did. We sort of we were we were mutually in agreement that it was sufficiently provocative and and accurate uh to be used um as a as a title for this this this play, this story. But the group that opposes it the most is black women. Uh they become, at least the the ones who who do oppose it, the black women who oppose the use of this title, they are vociferous and adamant. It is a disgrace. You must change the title. So I don't know what to make of that. Do you? No. We don't know to make of it, but we have seen it.
SPEAKER_03Well, I mean, but I think it may relate to the idea, though, that we don't want to be improper.
SPEAKER_02Right. I guess it could be that simple. Could be that simple.
SPEAKER_00You know, there there have been various ceremonies about burying this word and really limiting the use of it, especially as you described Dwight so eloquently by the hip-hop nation as a term of endearment. And you hear people, you hear comedians say it now uh freely to mixed race audiences across the world, and it seems to be softening as you know its impact in terms of the use, the negative impact that it once had. People are trying to strip that away. But you're saying that that word carries so much power, uh, negative power, that it needs to be confronted in its rawest sense and then dealt with from there because it is a word that has hurt so many people, and the use of it has caused people to uh not only lose their dignity, uh, but for some to even lose their lives. And so and so it could be very destructive.
SPEAKER_02It means slave. That's what that word means. Um so uh, you know, it needs to be stricken, except in context, in historical context.
SPEAKER_03Well, the Goyd's story, the Oakland, is a very brief story. It you write it down, it's doesn't even take up a whole page, but it's it's very strong and it makes its point beautifully well. And if you start substituting words, it suddenly doesn't work at all.
SPEAKER_00So it wouldn't have the impact that the two of you want it to have. And and so, in essence, you're really trying to stir up those those emotions in people to get them to wake up and to hear exactly what you're saying. Uh now, to some, it's gonna turn them off, right? To some, you know, even with this podcast, some people may have a hard time listening to this as we are talking, but I think that is what society has done. It has dulled us to these points in society and in our past that are impacting our present day and will impact our future if we don't do something about it. Uh so we can't we can't name ourselves to this.
SPEAKER_02No, no, but by no means. People have trouble listening to Christ, to Muhammad, to Martin, to Malcolm, and all of the aforementioned were murdered as as young men, in fact. Because people just don't want to hear it. They don't want to hear it. And so Alec and I accept that we're taking a certain risk. I mean, we're old folks, so I suppose it can be said that we've we've lived our lives, but this is no small matter. There will be people who will despise us for telling this truth.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
Why The Play Uses The Slur
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, you know, the phrase uh due to expire that we um have on this podcast carries a weight of limited time and importance of acting now, as you just even stated, you know, that, you know, two of you, you know, you you're looked at as, as you said, old men who are taking a risk, but you're putting it out there. So, as elders today, how does the reality of the time that you have left shape the way that you are approaching all of this right now with the play and with your activism in society and getting people out to vote and um really battling what's wrong with our world today? How how is this importance of acting now really motivating you?
SPEAKER_03Well, there's gonna be an election in six months, and things could get really much worse if that election isn't taken seriously. And that's one of our main points is the people who say, oh, it just doesn't matter. But Dwight and I know that 10 years from now we will be less spry than uh than we are. We we don't we don't have much time, but neither do you, neither does the country, because it did not take Hitler long to take power. He did it without a fight. He did, he was, did it following the rules of the of the society, and then he began to subvert everything, and in a few years, it was impossible to get rid of him without a world war. So that's that's I'm I uh I'm looking at that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and that's a fair way to look at it, Alec. I'm I'm taken by the the very sad, the the abysmal ignorance of the population. There there is no way that the abomination we call Donald Trump could rise to the highest office in the land, it could be argued the highest office in in the world without the support of an ignorant, buffoonish constituency. These are people who simply cannot think their way through the history that is so blatantly theirs. And so it becomes a requirement for such a horrible human being to hold that office, any office. It's a requirement that the people remain stupid, that they remain ignorant. And so my my advice uh to the young people, my hope for the young people is that they will become informed and that the information will come from a place of honor and dignity and and and courtesy, something appearing to be foreign to the country right now.
SPEAKER_03Uh, we're about to not get the chance to elect another president. It really that's for real. So, yeah, I mean, we are totally uh convinced that I mean this is worth I would I would go on the streets and maybe even get shot. But it's worth dying for. Exactly. It's worth dying for.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Well, you know, there are some people who have been out here fighting, maybe not as long as the two of you, uh, but there are some young activists who are trying to make a difference, who are trying to move the needle, their artists, their leaders, as they are listening now to those who may feel exhausted with the ongoing fight for civil liberties and all of these things, what wisdom do you want to pass on to them from the two of you about staying resilient for the long haul?
SPEAKER_03Well, things did get better in the 50s and 60s and 70s when people really stood up to the system. And so so don't think you can't make a change. At the same time, this is serious. Don't think you can just do nothing and have things get better or even stay the same. I mean, they're going to get worse. So what I would say is, I'm sorry if you're tired, go take a five-minute nap and then get up and and work and fight.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I don't even know if I would call what I have to say wisdom. It's more an appeal. We have to do something. Our children, their children, uh run the risk, a very high risk, of falling into servitude again. It can be argued that they're already in servitude without knowing it, which is makes it even more egregious. Right. So what my appeal is that you listen to the elders. We are not making this stuff up. The evidence is all around them, it's all around us, it's glaring, it's irrefutable. And they've got to find some some bravery, some some strength somewhere, because the children in the future, my grandchildren, my great-grandchildren, their children, their great-grandchildren are going to want an answer. Why why did you let this happen? Why did you let this happen to us? You know, you you knew the history and you let it repeat itself. You are complicit in the repetition of a history of servitude. So, wisdom, I don't know that I have any, but I do have an appeal.
SPEAKER_03It sounded pretty wise to me, do I?
SPEAKER_00I agree with that, Alec, 100%. Because I think I heard you say, you do nothing, then you're complicit. Uh, but if you stand up and do what's
Elders, Elections, And The Risk
SPEAKER_00right uh for all of humanity, this is not just about rights for African Americans in this country or um, you know, really going after whites in any way. No, this is about humanity and us working together as the two of you are. And and I must say that the two of you are very inspiring to me as a man who has fought against the injustices in society and seen the urgency of us uh trying to live our best life, but we can only do that when we face those obstacles that are in front of us and seek to remove them. That's how our lives get actually better. And so with with that, I know that you have performed the stories that you have not only shared with us here, but other stories that you've shared to Detroit audiences. And people have raved about your work being inspiring. Uh they talked about it being very important and crucial for a time like this. But is there something specific that you've heard from an audience member who was able to witness uh what the two of you are sharing, and how did it impact you in terms of their response or what they said, whether it be negative or positive?
SPEAKER_03So we do tell our stories around. And once I told a story about me as a um teenager, I was at the bus station in Georgia right when uh the civil civil rights bill was being passed in the 60s, and so the bus station was integrated, but this family was huddling in a corner of the bus station, and they were really afraid they were going to be harassed. And as a kid, I really I was taught to ignore uh ignore the problems of black people, which is one of the ways that segregation perpetuated itself. But this is something I uh I couldn't ignore. I it was Very clear to me, uh, maybe with the help of reading Martin Luther King, that this family was feeling uh really frightened. And and the name of my poem was The Bus Station Prayer, because I imagined this family just praying that they would not be harassed and they'd be allowed to just get on with their business. Well, I read the poem and the story, and then uh a lady, a lady in the uh in the audience, wouldn't you say a black lady? A black lady told me that she was very moved, she was very moved that I cared. Well, she told the whole audience, Alan. She she stood up and said this in front of the whole group. She did. She did. And it was more about I I noticed, but I also, it was clear that I cared, and I think she was almost surprised. Yeah. Fearfully surprised. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I I think it goes to the question of honest dialogue, which requires a level of bravery that very few people have. It is rare, very rare, for people to be cogent in response to a delicate issue. They can wax all anecdotal, um, everybody has a story, if you will. But to peel back the layers and approach the thing intellectually is very, very difficult to do on almost any subject. Yes. But it is especially true on a subject that is so so rife with difficulty is the subject of race in America. It goes to our deepest sensitivities. The white folks think they have something to lose. They don't see that they have something to gain. They think they have something to lose. And the black people often come to the discussion with their fists balled up. They just want to juke it up. They want the white folks to feel diminished. They want them to feel like savages, I guess. Admit this history, you nasty MF, and so on. And you you you can't make it work. Uh, and that is a lesson that I got from Alec. I show up to these discussions with a big baseball bet. I want to pop people over the head with it. And Alec peacefully, calmly says, over and over, Dwight, you're you can't you can't win with the vinegar. You gotta bring some sugar to the game. Bring some kindness. Wow. And and I know that he's right, but perhaps because I've come so late to this understanding in my twenties, growing up without it, I I I am stunned that we are still talking about race. Right. Because it's it's so insane to me. How can this be a subject of conversation? But it is. And I have to agree. It's unwieldy, and none of us know how to look how to approach it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's sad that we're still talking about this in 2026. Uh makes no sense to me. You're right. And um, with the help of the two of you, uh, hopefully we can continue to forge a future history that is much different than the one that we're feeling now and much more positive uh for all of humanity. And so I love it, you know, how you know the two of you have really come together and you're not painting a broad brush with anybody. I mean, we know that when you talk about Republicans or you talk about whites or you talk about blacks, we're not saying that every single person that identifies with those groups are uh negative or all positive in any way. Uh what you're saying, though, is that there is a power structure in place that is dominating uh how people live, uh what they uh can do, and whether or not people will eat and live. I mean, that is the reality that we're living in today. And even though we're all due to expire, right, our lives will end. No one wants their life to end in a way that comes from racism or sexism or feeling less than. Uh, that's not how we want to end our lives. And so, but so many people have, and so many people have been forced to lose their lives uh in a negative way because of hate in society, and that's what we are totally against is hate in society. I can remember um one time when I heard the story of you know Malcolm X, who told the uh young white college student when she asked him, What can I do to help your cause? And then he looked at her and said, Nothing. You know, he said he told her,
Audience Reactions And Honest Dialogue
SPEAKER_00nothing. You can do nothing. And later on he regretted that because he said that that young lady was a person who was for his cause and for humanity. And uh because he painted her with a broad brush, um, he didn't give her the opportunity to participate in something so meaningful to her at that time, and who knows what that did to her? Yeah, fist balled up.
SPEAKER_02He had his fist balled up.
SPEAKER_00Right, exactly, exactly. And he later realized that that was not the approach to have. And so it's very difficult um, you know, in society to not be defensive today when you hear certain things and and you do certain things. How have you, the two of you, sort of dealt with with that, not being in a position where you're just writing people off who could actually help?
SPEAKER_02I I will say this and then let Alec address it. There are a couple of things that are absolute. I mean, even if they may be a bit axiomatic, they are absolute. One, we can be better than this. I am certain of it. And two, if you think you have a solution that does not include everyone, you don't really have a solution. And that is what Christ knew, it's what Martin knew, it's what got them killed. John Brown. It's what got them killed. Yeah, they knew that the solution had to include everyone. Yes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I don't think I can improve on on that. I'm uh when I was younger, I went out and did more things in the outside world. Now I'm I guess I have less energy. I'm trying, but but I'm not I'm not confronting as much face to face. But the work that I'm doing with Dwight is an attempt to confront and and to uh we're hoping to get uh uh a full-scale production in the Detroit area and use that to create uh discussion.
SPEAKER_02I I think I don't know if this goes to your question, Corey, but we have been followed five, six, seven years now by a documentarian. Okay, and she is a young woman, the whole crew, they're young people, yeah, and they follow us around, they interview us, they interview people who come uh to see our show, our performances. So I think we find some hope in that. This is not Ken Burns, this is a 35-year-old woman, something like that, even younger, okay. Uh, who gets it? She sees the great trouble, and she sees that Alec and I are making uh an honest effort and perhaps even a productive effort. He sees it, and she's recording it as a documentarian. Well, I'll tell you what, I think we need to have her on this show.
SPEAKER_00That that's you know that you know what? You just read my mind. Uh, I do believe that we need to bring her on and the next segment that we have together because I think our audience wants to hear more on this particular subject. Uh, those who are real about making a difference and making a change while we have while we have the chance. And so this is an opportunity for all of us to band together, as you said, both of you said so eloquently, it takes all of us, and it's going to take all of us, regardless of your race, your color, your financial status, whatever it is in this country, uh, your gender status, it doesn't matter. It takes all of us to do what's right for all human beings. And so that's the risk we take, and that is the risk that I believe is worth taking.
SPEAKER_02So, with that being I want to thank you for taking the time to interview us. I think this is very important. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_00Oh, you're welcome.
Final Charge: Vote And Tell Truth
SPEAKER_00And and as we and as we wrap this up, I'm going to ask the two of you, leave with our audience today whatever is on your heart. What what type of, I guess, charge you would want to leave with the audience today. And you know, until next time, uh, what do you want to leave them with?
SPEAKER_03I mean, I'm a very down-to-earth guy, so I'm going to say vote uh because I I'm tired of young people uh of all races just saying, oh, why bother? What's the point? And I'm saying, just shut up and vote, okay?
SPEAKER_02I I love that answer. And as you said earlier, I don't think I can top it, but I will say this we must not forsake the ancestors, and we must not be dishonest with the children. I mean, the the charge is to honor the ancestors, raise the children.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, very nice.
SPEAKER_00Well, when we talk about that and talk about our ancestors, it's been the blood of many that has been shed for the rights that human beings deserve to have in this country that have come from all races and creeds and religions. A lot of lives have been lost in this fight. And as you stated earlier, it's a fight worth having, fight worth getting engaged in. And whether it's voting, uh whether it's marching, whether it's, and people say, well, that's old school. We don't need to do that anymore. But listen, whatever we need to do to raise the awareness in society of these ills that we're going through, um, I think that the two of you are really the epitome of leading the charge as elders in the community and helping all of those who are younger than you to realize that there's a lot of work to be done and we must do it. So I want to thank the two of you for being a part of this podcast today. But we definitely want to bring your documentary on and making sure that we include her in this process as well because we would love to hear about the wonderful things that she's been able to capture with your journey. And so, with that being said, uh, once again, gentlemen, it has been my honor to have you on the podcast today. And uh, I'm sure uh that many of our audience members feel the same, and may we continue to work together to make a difference in society. So thank you so much for being a part of the Do to Expire podcast.
SPEAKER_02Amen.
SPEAKER_00Thank you very much. Thank you, Corey. All right. Well, until next time, uh, my friends who are listening, we believe that the work that's being done by these two gentlemen is making a difference. And uh we will let you know when their shows and their um plays come out, uh, where they're going to be. We will keep you informed of that and you can go out and support. But most importantly, don't just support what they're doing, support the thought behind what they're doing. Get out and vote, make a difference, let's make a change, and let's do it together. With that being said, I want to thank you for listening today. I'm your host, Corey Kennard.