Today's Horsemen
This podcast is to celebrate all the contributions made from the Horsemen out there. America was settled on the back of a horse and this tribute is to the men who work everyday in this industry!
Today's Horsemen
Jim Thomas, Horseman
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Bar T Horsemanship is an equine training facility located in Pittsboro, NC. We have over 40 years experience in working with young as well as problem horses. Thru True Horsemanship principles we work with your equine friend in offering the horse a better way by opening the door with a better understanding of how the horse thinks and reacts. Our techniques creat a stress free learning environment for both the horse and owners development in any discipline they wish to follow.
To be a horseman is defined as a person who is skilled in play. A person on a horse. A person who learns breeds, trains, or takes horses. But I believe it's so much more than that. The ability to communicate, build a relationship, a partnership with a horse, and work together as a result of understanding. Join us on this journey of discovery as we look at this great horse. Our guest today is Jim Thomas, and Jim and I have known each other for quite a while, and I've admired Jim for a long time. He's done some amazing work in horse industry and in many different ways, served on the horse council board, and and you know, just been an all-around amazing person to get to know. And I know you guys are gonna enjoy getting to know him too. So welcome to the show, Jim.
SPEAKER_00Well, thank you, Rose, and thank you so much for the invite uh to come on to the show and share a little bit. Uh our history, it does go back a long way, probably uh I don't know, 10 or 15 years at least. And uh I remember you were the reason I got on the horse council. So I I don't know if that's a thumbs up or a thumbs down because I'm still on the horse council.
SPEAKER_03Well, you did good work. That's a good thing.
SPEAKER_00It's been it's been a really good thing. We've worked a whole lot with uh horse events uh around. We worked through your magazine, through your show. We've just had a lot of good experiences, and uh I have really welcomed that. And uh it's kind of brought me out of a shell a little bit too.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. I'm glad that that you know you have have contributed so much in so many ways. So tell the audience a little bit about you first, and then we'll get more into what you're doing lately.
SPEAKER_00Okay, well, um, geez, where do I go? I am a retiree from the military. I spent 32 years in the army, and when I was looking about what I am going to do with my life uh after retirement, uh horses kind of looked to be a direction that I wanted to go. I'd my entire life I'd had horses, uh, I guess all the way up until probably seven or eight years old. Uh my dad, he dwindled a little bit in horse training. So, you know, I thought at that time, I said, I think I know enough to get into this. And uh I ventured into it. And, you know, once getting going, I realized that no, I really don't know as much as I wanted to know or what I felt like I needed to know because I wanted to be a little different. I didn't want to just be another horse trainer out there at the time. So I kind of went on a pilgrimage for a few years, traveling as much as I could, meeting, working with, apprenticing under as many different clinicians as I could, which over, I guess, a period of four or five years, I had a chance to work with about 10 different clinicians. And uh some, gosh, if I mentioned you would know all of them. Um, but with that, it gave me an opportunity to see really how little I know. And I think as a horse trainer, the more that we can admit to the world how little we know just means how much there is to know. Uh, and I don't think, you know, even at my age, and gosh, I I'm in that plus social security world too, Rose, that uh, you know, even at that age, tomorrow I'll look back and say, I knew nothing yesterday. And in the with that journey, it just keeps going and going and going, and I hope I never find the end to it.
SPEAKER_02Agree. I agree.
SPEAKER_03You know, horses have taught me so much about everything, about raising my kids, about my business, about themselves, about everything. And if you open your mind and your heart, the gifts they give you just never stop.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it's true. I was just and I'll reflect for a second this past week I spent with my uh daughter, son-in-law and three grandchildren in Florida, and I was using so many analogies in helping my daughter in child rearing that are so in relation to working with horses. And it's it's all you would think it would be common sense, but it's not, because we don't view the world through as a horse through a horse, we view the world of the horse through a human. And when you start breaking things down, it's just like working with kids, don't view the child as an adult or as a human as the way we normally would think. We've got to get into their shoes. And then we perceive things, we present things in the way that dependent upon their age that they can, oh, I understand. And the same thing goes with the horse. Don't do it through the human, do it through the eyes of the horse.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. Uh you know, I used to tease my son and say, you know, the first thing I learned in horse training was suggest ask tail. You don't want to get to the end of that sentence.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That's right. That's right.
SPEAKER_03So you've been traveling and studying and kind of heading in some new directions with your career. So tell us a little bit about some of the changes that you've made and and things you're doing now versus how the clinics that you used to do.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So um starting in in 2007 when I retired, I just started, I was a a horse trainer. And I brought horses in uh to bar T here, and we would, whether starting or problem solving or whatever, whatever the case, whatever we felt or the client felt their horse needed, we would work on it. In about 2013, 2014, I had an opportunity to meet uh Dr. Steve Peters, and he's a human neuroscientist by trade, and he also had taken the journey of understanding the horse and the horse brain. So that kind of changed my direction a little bit in the way that I presented things to the horse, and that in the way that I trained and the way that I talked. So I always tried to, before that, I would view it with a horse just did that because he's a horse. And he's just not, he just hadn't understood me yet. And now it's uh the horse is doing that because I just don't understand him yet, and I haven't given him the right words, and I'll just use that opposed to action, the right actions that he can understand. And as we begin to understand the horse a little bit more from the neurological side of it, then we understood, okay, this is why this works, this is why this doesn't work. So I kind of took that a little bit, molded it in my into my training, still bringing horses in and training and working along. But I was feeling like, oh, probably in about 2020, 2021, I'm like, I think I'm losing a little bit here because I want to touch more people and share with more of what I've learned. So it's not just helping the horse, because I can help the horse here, send it home, and I haven't changed anything in the horse's life. But if I can touch the person and change the person, now I've changed the horse for the rest of his life because and all the horses that that person will touch from that point forward. So I continued on with clinics, so then I've started going to Europe. I had an opportunity to expand my travels and going to different countries in Europe and teaching the same things that I'd been teaching here, and it's kind of taken me away from bringing horses on-site training to going out and working with people, and I still work with people one-on-one, helping them understand. But my big picture now is can I get in front of a handful of people and let a handful of people understand why their horse just did what he did and what they can do to help it along?
SPEAKER_03I know you traveled extensively all over Europe and and did some clinics there. Um, but I haven't seen too much that you had done around here locally. So do you have stuff coming up that people can go and listen and learn?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you can go to our website. Uh, we have all our clinics listed on our website, bartehorsemanship.com. Um I think they're on. We we just put our clinic schedule for this year uh online I guess last week or week before we put it in place. So it should be online or will be on uh very soon. Um I still make myself available throughout the United States and travel uh as well. And as we continue later on um towards the summer, I'll be offering my newest program. Uh, and it's not as much as a horse human clinic as much as it is a human clinic.
SPEAKER_03Nice.
SPEAKER_00So it it'll be more in the classroom environment in letting the human, the person, understand wholeheartedly why my horse does what he does.
SPEAKER_02That is awesome.
SPEAKER_00And the name of that is The Horse Brain Simplified.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00So, you know, just and and I guess I fall back a lot on my military training and my military experience. I had a lot of teaching uh opportunities in the military. So uh I feel like and I'm told I'm pretty good in a classroom environment. And using those skill sets that I've learned and helping people understand your horse does what he does because, and they give an answer, and it's not normally the answer people want to hear because they're like, Well, I did this and this and this, and that horse should see it that way. And I said, But it's not. This is these are the priorities of the horse. And most people, you ask them what is the horse's priorities, and they're gonna pretty well say the same thing a human's priorities are, and they're so far removed uh from it. I know one part of this program, I use the analogy of um the five love languages, and letting people understand what our our connections are and what we want from other people and how we want to be understood and how we want to be treated. And then I tell them, I want you to take those same things to the horse. And they literally think they can take those same five things to the horse and says, Well, that's all my horse needs. And of all of those five things, not one of them is important to the horse. And when they understand that, then they oh, okay, so the treats aren't the thing that my horse needs. And the blanket and the nice stall and this and that are not the things that my horse needs. And I'm like, You're right. Now you're beginning to understand. And when we start opening our mind and listening, then we really start understanding from the horse. But most of us, we say we listen to the horse, but we don't hear him.
SPEAKER_03I agree. Because they you assume that you already know, and that's where you mess up.
SPEAKER_00Because we're we're the smarter of the two, as we say. Yes, but uh right. You know, the horse has been around before we were, and the horse will be around after we leave. Uh the horse sitting out there trying to extinct himself as much as the human is.
SPEAKER_03That's for sure. Oh well, that's really, really uh an interesting perspective and a good way to put it into perspective, I think. What other kinds of things do you teach in in this class?
SPEAKER_00Um, we teach a whole lot about chemicals, brain chemicals. And the brain chemicals, I focus on five particular chemicals. Now, the horses has as many brain chemicals as a human does. And but, and I'll give one as an example. So the food industry has figured out that they can market food based on one chemical in our brain, and that chemical is dopamine. So when I walk in a convenience store, the first aisle that I look at in the convenience store is full of sugar.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00All right, yep. The aisle directly across from that is full of salt. Sugar and salt are the two primary drivers of dopamine for the food industry. So they put loads and loads of it. I mean, you pick up a potato chip, way more salt than our body needs, but salt sells.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00So using that, the food industry has, you know, they've taken billions and billions and billions of dollars out of our pocket. So when I can show a person how to get a horse to give himself dopamine by in training, then they start understanding, well, that was mighty easy. So I can replace the treats. I can replace the, oh, my horse needs me to rub him and this and this and this. And because those aren't the things that the horse really wants, the horse really wants to go to a homeostasis, to go to that quiet place. That that place where we're all standing or sit, yeah, stand around, hold hooves, and sing come by ya. That's what the horse wants. And when we can show that to him and still train and teach and get our horse to be active and participating in the things we want, because a lot of times people, yeah, somebody will come, my horse just loves to jump. I said, really? So if I put your horse out in a jump field, he would just go out there and just jump and jump and jump. Well, I don't know. So see, you love to jump, and you're just trying to take your loves and hope your horse is liking it. And in reality, what we should hope for is my horse will tolerate and do the things that I want to do to stay happy.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00And then because when I'm happy, his life is comfortable, and then we just start, when I'm happy, my heart rate's good, and now the horse's heart rate is good.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_03Isn't that amazing how they can feel our heart rate and perceive so many things about us without us even opening our mouth or or touching him just by being in his presence. Can you elaborate on that a little bit so people say I surely can.
SPEAKER_00There's something called the limbatic resonance in the horse. And humans actually had it thousands of years ago. And what it is is when my body changes through anxiety. Now, that anxiety could be fear, it could be uh the fear of not knowing, it could be the fear of something bad's getting ready to happen to me, it could be I'm hungry, it could be an uncertainty. All of these things that come in our body causes our heart rate to increase. When our heart rate increases, our respiration increases. The tension in our body increases, the trimineal nerve in the side of our face changes. All of these things start changing up. And when they do, it's just like if you're sitting next to a person that is tense, it doesn't take you long to start feeling that tension. So horses' primary uh need in this world is to survive. That's their number one concern. And if I look at people and say, What do you think your horse's number one priority is? Food. That's all they want is food. And I say, Well, show me one horse that will defy fear and continue to eat. They won't. So we know we know fear is the number one thing. So with that ability, that horse can read his buddies around him. And we've all seen, and I think, you know, in the past year, I've seen it probably a thousand times posted online the horse can hear a heart rate from five feet or fifteen feet or whatever the case. And he can. Um, but it's not as much he hears our heart rate as much as he feels the energy that our body starts releasing. And it's a negative energy opposed to a positive energy. And I don't want to get real holistic in this, but you know, if somebody would have said something to me about energy 20 years ago, I would have looked at him and said, You are crazy. You're you're on another planet.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00But in years past, probably in the past 10 or 12 years, I've started understanding energy quite a bit. So those things really come into play. So, with that ability, the horse, you know, we always have one horse on guard. So we've got five horses in the paddock. There's one horse always his job for the next little bit, I want you to be on lookout. And then everybody else is happily eating, sleeping, and this and that. And then, you know, he sends just a little message through what I was just talking about. And he says, Okay, guys, we need to be aware. Something just walked up over there. So now we've got five horses looking over there. And then one of them says, That is a threat. So then they all view it as a threat, and they leave. So that's the horses nonverbally just communicating to each other through what their body is telling one another. The same thing happens to us. We walk into the mall, we're just generally walking down through the aisle at the mall, and it's like, somebody's staring at me. I feel somebody staring at me. And we turn around, and lo and behold, there's somebody standing there and says, Aren't you rose cushing? And we felt that, and it's the same thing that's in our body. We just we've put it so far back because we don't live in a world of fear like the horse does. I hope that kind of explains it.
SPEAKER_03But that's one of the so, I mean, you know, we have to remember that that they are um prey animals, and so that that's ingrained into their genes is that to always be on guard and pay attention.
SPEAKER_00And always will be, no matter what we do, because we can't change that DNA that was put, that Mother Nature put in that horse in the beginning.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. That is so fascinating and and so interesting to watch because I I um I have learned from you actually about the energies and how they flow. Like you used to tell me that if you reach for your horse with your right arm and you're right-handed, he feels more energy than he does if you reach for it with your left arm. And I mean, those things are really right on the money. So you've known about this a long time. I'm glad that you've studied it deeper and you're teaching people because the energy is so positive. It's all around us. And if we learn about it, we can use it more wisely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's you know, I'm I can watch a person rub their horse. And I use an analogy that I won't go into here, but there's so many different ways that we can put our hand on the horse and add energy to the horse, exchange energy with the horse, or dissipate energy out of the horse just by touch. And if you think about it, we do the same thing with one another.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That, you know, by by someone touching you can escalate your heart rate or they can deaccelerate your heart rate. And, you know, the prime example is the child wakes up with a nightmare, and all we've got to do is go, we're quiet, we're soft, we're easy, we're in a happy place within us, and we can transfer that energy right back to that child and make the bad guy go away. Way. And we can do the same thing to the horse, or we can turn the horse in the other direction and ramp him up and not know why we did or how we did.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, it's so interesting how um how you comfort each other and how they do the same thing. And and I love your analogy of explaining that because it makes it very easy to understand that we're we're herd animals just like they are in so many ways.
SPEAKER_00We are, we are. And you know, not to anthemorphorize it, but there are variables or I guess parables, that's the right word here. There are parables that we do as humans that work in the horse world just as well. But that's not to say that, you know, what I do as a human with another human should work between a human and a horse.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00But we can use parables to say it affects us the same way it affects the horse. And positive and negatives. Absolutely. You know, we don't want to continue on with the anthemorphorize and well, I'm cold, he needs a blanket, and I'm this, he needs that, and he needs this. No, that's not part of his his his mix. That's not that's what he he needs. But then there are other things that, yes, he does need safety, he does need comfort, he needs security, he needs those things. And the biggest thing, you know, I was working with somebody just yesterday, and as soon as their horse did something, they wanted to rub it and rub it and rub it and reward it. And I says, just really what your horse wants to be done is left alone.
SPEAKER_03He wants to lick and chew.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he wants to lick and chew. He wants to have a quiet minute, and that quiet minute is actually a time for reflection. And just like us, when we learn something, as soon as we learn something, if somebody immediately started engaging us in something else, it blocks us and it blocks our mind from being able to take that bit of information and start storing it where it needs to go. So when my horse does the right thing and I go up and I start rubbing him and I start patting him, and I say, Ah, that's a good boy. That's this. I just blocked his mind from storing that bit of information. And if I continue that on, that information just kind of, we always heard the expression in one ear and out the other. There it went.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. That's such a good point because I know I'm certainly have been guilty of that most of my life, but I try to be a little smarter in my old age. So where where is your next clinic and where is it?
SPEAKER_00I don't know.
SPEAKER_03We'll pull it up on the internet.
SPEAKER_00Well, and and see, that's what I have to do. Um gosh, I turn to my wife now and I says, What's what's my next schedule for the next week or two?
SPEAKER_02I got it.
SPEAKER_00And you know, I hate to say that, and that is really embarrassing to see that.
SPEAKER_02You'll figure this out. Don't worry. I just wanted to advertise it for you.
SPEAKER_00I I think we've got um I I'm gonna have to say go to the internet and look.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. We'll start it. Let's start again. So you just put your new schedule up for all your clinics, so folks can just go to your website and follow you. How do they follow you on social media? Is it Barty or Jim Thomas?
SPEAKER_00So you can go either one. Jim Thomas is a normal Facebook page, and of course, all of the stuff is shared there. They can go to the like page, which is Bart Horsemanship, and that's generally where the clinics will be posted at there, and there'll be activity, but then always share that stuff back to Jim Thomas as well.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00And so it was you know, those two ways, and then when you go online, you can register, actually register for the clinic online and pay your deposit online so you don't even have to talk with us.
SPEAKER_03What's your web address?
SPEAKER_00Um bar thorsemanship.com.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Now, um a couple more questions and then I'll let you go because I know you have a busy day. Um, what is left on Jim Thomas's bucket list? Because you've accom accomplished so many things.
SPEAKER_00Oh wow. I want to take the new seminar that I'm putting together, and I'm wanting to carry that. Well, I've already taught it uh two different times in Europe. So it's about I taught it as a um one-day program over there. It was on the front end of some normal clinics that I did. But I want it to be its own standalone uh clinic, and I really want to go somewhere with that because I think I can touch more people and help more horses through their owner than any other way. Uh yes, I can go and touch a horse and help somebody put it on the trailer, fix the trailer problem, but the next time that horse has a question about getting on the trailer, if I haven't trained that person, the horse is going to be right back to square one.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_00But if I and now that horse understands that their person understands, and then that horse says, Oh, I can have a moment now. And now that human looks and says, Yes, you can. Now let's get on the trailer. Sure, I'm glad to. And just using that. And I think that that's my journey, and I think that's probably where my journey is going to continue on as long as I can am physically able, is just to keep marking it that way, um, because I'm touching more people in in that direction.
SPEAKER_03I think that's wonderful. Um, so you're gonna primarily try to do that in the United States now.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah. Yeah. I've actually got one, um, it's a private one that it's already set up for next month.
SPEAKER_01Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00Um, then we'll start advertising that. And it's actually going to be its own um social media uh website, everything. It'll be standalone because I really want to put a lot of uh recognition into it. I want to put a lot of direction to it, and not that I want it to be um unrelated to BART horsemanship, I want it to be able to stand on its own feet.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. I mean, it's just an extension of that for sure. Now, one last question. The horse business is a tough business to make a living in, no matter who you are. What advice would you give somebody coming into our industry as how to to have a potential to be successful?
SPEAKER_00Wow, you're talking about as a tr in a training type environment?
SPEAKER_03Any type of horse-affiliated job. Um, you know, there's just basic things that people need to know and without a doubt, like hard work is a big part of it.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Um, I guess the biggest thing, and and I used to um years ago when I was a recruiter, and I would go into the schools, and of course, we would always use um segues to get to the students. So we would go into the classroom and we would teach programs, and then these programs weren't about the military, but teaching the program gave an exposure for me as a recruiter to the students. And one of those was a career training, career building uh type deal. And the thing that I always emphasize to them is always pick a career you love with the money being a fringe benefit.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely, that's a really good advice.
SPEAKER_00Understanding horses and the world of horses, you're not gonna be a millionaire. Right. Okay, you can make a good living. You'll have to be frugal, but your reward, which you will do every single day by helping the life of a horse and helping a person understand their horse much better, will help you walk away at night, lay your head down with a smile.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely, absolutely, that's beautiful, that's really good advice. So, if I want to hire you to do a clinic for me or teach me stuff, how would I get in touch with you?
SPEAKER_00Just reach out through um social media or you can call me direct. Uh, and that my phone number is found on Facebook, is found on uh on on the website just as well. And you can reach out to me, call me, and we can set up, we'll discuss what you're looking for. And our clinics are very, very uh what's the word I'm looking here? Variable. Yeah. There we go. Uh so it's anything. Uh we teach coworking, we teach groundwork, fundamentals of horsemanship, situational riding, and that that's one that we started actually last year. Situal situational riding is if I'm riding along and I come into this situation, what do I do? And we just probably in a in you know, in a day's time, we'll put 25 different situations that come up. I'm going down the road and lo and behold, here comes the fire truck. What do I do? Yeah, you know, because it's like whoever thinks that's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, a quail shooting up on your horse's head. Anything, yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_00And as we start understanding that, then we know how to respond opposed to how to react.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00And it goes back to the other things. Here comes the fire truck. Am I panicking? Or am I like, horse, we got this? Continue to march. And it's just how we respond to that. And then, of course, we um I think I talked about cow work. Uh, we do obstacle training, we do trail rides, and we actually starting hosting. I'm not teaching these, I don't want to teach them, but I want to host them is um Western Dersage. So I think we're we're working at picking a person to do a Western Dersage clinic here, and also um, oh gosh. Equitation and teaching equitation. Um, I know what they all are. I don't think I'm competent to teach those things. Uh, but I still want to offer that under Barty Horsemanship's name, just to uh give people more opportunities.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. Now I'm sorry I told you I was gonna let you go, but I lied. I haven't even talked to you about Mustangs. My God, that you they were such an important part of your life. Do you still work with America Mustangs?
SPEAKER_00Um, I I certainly do. Uh believe it or not, we've got one coming in um, I guess next week. I have a working student, and as I told you, I'm not bringing horses in for training. That's not a thing anymore, but I have a working student that wants to learn. So when a horse does, when I have an opportunity that I think this will be a good horse for her to learn, Mone, um, that I'll bring that horse in. So, yes, I still work a lot with Mustangs. I still get a lot of phone calls. I've had my Mustang six months, seven months, eight months. I can't get a halter on him. And I'll go out and, you know, normally in a period of a couple of hours, we'll have the halter on, we'll be leading the horse around. So we've kind of taken that horse, um, got him back on the right track to help people. And then they start understanding now I know why I couldn't catch my horse. So we still do a whole lot there. Um, I I will say that's the only horses that I keep account of, but we have trained from start to finish 59 Mustangs here at Bartee Horsemanship. And, you know, of all the other horses, I I have no idea, but we did keep a list on that. And just just because it was it's kind of like a a little bragging thing there.
SPEAKER_03Well, sure. I mean, I I've never seen anybody do it better, and you know, uh Carly Wheelis Porta is a prime example of that. I mean, you know, my Godwater horsewoman she grew into from working with you, you know. So you've you've done so many good contributions to the horse industry. Thank you for all your hard work these years.
SPEAKER_00Thank you, thank you. And we also um we work with a couple of 4-H groups now, too. Nice. Uh, one in Durham County and one here in Chatham County as well. And that's usually, well, it's almost an every month thing that I'm teaching something to those kids. So one thing in the horse world, if you want something out of the horse world, you got to be willing to give something to the horse world. And it doesn't necessarily have to come, you know, with a financial reward or a financial incentive to do it.
SPEAKER_03Paying it forward is so good in the horse industry.
SPEAKER_00And, you know, feeling good on the inside is a whole lot better feeling than somebody handing me some money.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. I mean, I'm a good example of that. I don't make any money, but I love what I do.
SPEAKER_00That's it.
SPEAKER_03All right. Well, thank you so much for being on the show today. And uh, as always, folks, thank you guys for listening.
SPEAKER_00Well, thank you so much. All righty, look forward to another opportunity.
SPEAKER_03Me too, Jim. It's my pleasure to host today's Horseman Podcast: a chance to hear working horsemen's voices, hear what inspires them, experience their troubles and struggles, and realize we all have a story to tell, and it's worth telling. I hope you enjoyed the show today. As always, thank you for listening. Follow us on the place.