A Path to More Than Cutting Grass | Fired Up Podcast Ep. 11

Commercial landscaping has both a staffing and a perception problem.  - 600 positions are open right now within a 10 mile radius of Evanston, and most people still think the job is just cutting grass.

Episode 11 goes inside that gap. We find out what commercial landscaping actually looks like from the inside, why the industry is struggling to find people, and what a five-week course at Oakton College could mean for someone ready to get started.

Welcome to Episode 11 of the Fired Up Podcast, a production of The Trade Collective. Hosts Dr. Pete Bavis and Patrick Hughes sit down with Jamie Wallace from BrightView and Leah Kittner from Oakton College to talk commercial landscaping, workforce development, and a new Landscape Technician program where participants leave equipped for entry-level technician roles in landscape maintenance.

Meet The Guests:

🎙️ Jamie Wallace: Jamie started as an operator and spent the next 40 years working through estimating, project management, branch management, and sales in the construction and landscape industry. He now leads business development and recruiting at BrightView, the world's largest commercial landscape company, with crews working on projects across the country including SoFi Stadium and the Pentagon Memorial. He came to The Trade Collective about two years ago because the industry has a staffing problem, and he wanted to be part of solving it.

🎙️ Leah Kintner: Leah is the Senior Program Developer for Workforce and Community Education at Oakton College. She's an ETHS grad and spends her time building fast, nimble non-credit programs that connect people to industries that are actively hiring. The Landscape Technician course is one of the newest, developed in direct collaboration with BrightView after Leah and Jamie first connected at The Trade Collective.

In this episode, we discuss:

🔥 Why commercial landscaping is one of the most misunderstood fields in the skilled trades, and what the work actually looks like beyond the lawn mower

🔥 What a $468 certificate opens up, from field labor to estimating to running your own business entirely

🔥 How Oakton and BrightView built this course from scratch, and what the 10 available seats could mean for someone in the Chicagoland area right now

The Landscape Technician course starts July 8th. Space is currently available and scholarship and stipends exist.  Active recruitment is included in the course.

Register here: https://ce.oakton.edu/search/publicCourseSearchDetails.do?method=load&courseId=10990448

Join the Movement: New episodes drop every other Thursday. Stay tuned and make sure you are following so you never miss an episode.

Follow our journey on social media!

Contact & Support: General Inquiries: info@thetradecollective.org

Igniting the future of the skilled trades. Let's get fired up! 🔥

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:06

This is an exciting conversation because the way you guys came together is fun. Right. And that's really the genesis of what we're trying to do. We are having we are we do have a problem we're trying to solve. Yep. Right? You have butts and seats you need, and you need people.

SPEAKER_05 0:20

So the industry needs people.

SPEAKER_04 0:22

Industry needs people. Correct. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 0:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 0:24

Okay, good.

SPEAKER_05 0:24

And Pete's got 800 of them a year.

SPEAKER_02 0:27

I got a supply. Is this okay in a good spot? Is it okay? Are we good? All right. Here we go. Pete. Pete. Rolling. Here we are. Here we are, man. Here we go. What's going on? Uh this week, you know, we're actually gearing up for uh next school year. So we're doing a lot of like, you know, I did a department chair retreat where I met with them. We went over some data, had some good conversation, planning, and the next week is the broader leadership retreat. So, you know, we'll have a bunch of people over at the high school, different leaders will be working together, collaborating, planning for uh next school year. So it's exciting. You know, always moving.

SPEAKER_04 0:58

I I I there's so much that goes on in running a high school with 3,700 students, and then how many staff and you know you just have a lot. It's a lot, it's a lot of responsibility to to to so thanks for what you do. Um just want to say we had um seven or eight people here from the trades the other day. We're starting a club of just people in the trades, and they're gonna start welcoming high school students to join their club. It's really cool. So if you're in the Evanston area and you're in any skilled trade and want to join this club, uh, we need you. We need you to be a part of this conversation. Um so consider joining us. We're we're thinking about putting an entry into the Fourth of July parade and walking down the street with uh with people who are in the trade, skilled trade. So come and promote your trade, come and promote uh what you do for a living and share with our community what you do.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

How do they find this uh this club? They come to the trade collective. Come to the trade collective.

SPEAKER_04 1:58

I think we're I think it's gonna be a month right now, it's next Monday night, but after I don't know when we're gonna air this, but come to the collective and we'll get you get you squared away. Get you squared away. Beautiful. Yep. It's gonna be great.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

That's good.

SPEAKER_04 2:09

To see carpenters and to see pipe fitters and to see automotive guys in different different trades sitting around talking and talking smack. That's a great idea. It's really good. It's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 2:19

Yeah, it builds relationships too early on, which I like. I like that idea. That's good.

SPEAKER_04 2:23

So today we're gonna be talking about commercial landscape. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

Wow, okay. What is that? Right.

SPEAKER_04 2:29

I think we're gonna learn. And um I'm I'm gonna start with Jamie because Jamie, you know, you came into our life um probably about 15 months ago, maybe longer. Yeah, maybe two, you know, almost almost two years now. Yep, and knocked on our door, and we're interested in working at Ryan Field. And t tell us tell us about you if you don't mind, and then we'll we'll move on to you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:51

Well, uh so Jamie Wallace, obviously. Uh been in the in the construction industry for over 40 years. Um, in the landscape industry for probably 35. Um and mostly on the commercial side, uh, commercial landscaping, uh maintenance and construction where we do large, it doesn't have to be large, but m all commercial, no residential, individual homeowner type work. So it's if it's a high-rise apartment building, uh a football field, those kind of projects is what uh I've been involved with.

SPEAKER_04 3:19

Some football fields, could you name some of those?

SPEAKER_05 3:21

Uh well, we did uh Denver, um we did just did SoFi twice. Um so we've done quite a few of them across the country. A little bit up in Green Bay, Philadelphia. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:31

I think you're the world's largest con commercial commercial c landscape company.

SPEAKER_05 3:36

Yep. There's about 20,000 of us today out in the field. Yeah. That's impressive.

SPEAKER_04 3:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:42

And so then I'm actually been, like I said, been around for a long time. Um the one reason that I did start uh coming over here by you guys is the industry has a problem with staffing. Um most people look at landscaping and tell me, Well, I don't want to cut grass. That's not what we do, right? I mean, we do that, but that is not all we do. There's a lot opportunity um to work on major high profile projects. You know, we have all kinds of opportunities for people. And I want to try to get the word out.

SPEAKER_04 4:10

Well, that's what we're gonna do today. Yeah. Leah.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 4:14

Do you mind introducing yourself? Where do you come from and what brings you to the podcast today?

SPEAKER_00 4:25

That encompasses quite a lot of areas in our non-credit part of the college. I also do come from Evanston, Illinois. I'm an Evanston grad. It was about 150 years ago.

SPEAKER_04 4:36

All right. So I'm gonna ask for us to kind of talk about credit and non-credit. We'll get to that, but I don't I don't quite know what that means. And I don't think a lot of people in the kind of maybe in our audience know what that means. Absolutely. So we'll we'll get to that. But um well, let's just start with Oakden. Who how old is Oakton? What is Oakden to our community? Talk to us about Oakden College.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Sure. Oakton uh came about in 1969, so we've been around a while, and um what I really like um about our mission statement is just the first line, which is Oakton is the community's college. It kind of says it all. We're here to support all elements of the community. We're talking about business owners, we're talking about potential students, we're talking about our senior citizens who are looking for that lifelong learning element. Um, so being the communities college, uh, that first line says a lot to me. Um, we cover 17 communities. We go from the border of Chicago all the way up to the border of Lake County, and then from the lakefront out to disciplines. It's it's a large group, and we speak over 70 languages at the college and represent quite a lot of communities.

SPEAKER_04 5:51

And you have adult learners, you also have high school, you have a high school curriculum, right? How do you call that?

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Well, you're talking about dual enrollment.

SPEAKER_04 5:59

Yes, please.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

And we actually start even before high school. Before we even get to our friends at ETHS, we are reaching out with our STEAM camps for kids. We have a program for seventh and eighth grade students called Futures, where they spend the whole day learning about STEAM programs and visit the college to get exposed to what that might look like at the college. Um, we have offices, actual physical office spaces in many of the college's district high schools, including ETHS, where we offer evening programs, general enrichment languages, our ESL programs. You mentioned our adult education population. Um education at all levels has acronyms and phrases that are just key to our own. Adult education does not just mean all adults. So for the college level, that means folks who are studying um English language, their high school equivalency, literacy, probably forgetting some, but these are the folks that are coming back to school or needed to finish school.

SPEAKER_04 7:00

Well, since we're on the Trade Collective podcast, I want to hear more about the CTE programming at Oakton. And what are some of the offerings that you have that some of our community might not know about?

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Sure, I'm happy to tell you that. Can I talk a little bit about credit versus non-credit first? Because it it kind of feeds into that quite a bit. Sure. Because with our CTE, which is career and technical education, and sometimes people call it BCT, which is business and community business and career technologies. So you might hear both, um, those can fall in credit or non-credit. And we have both at Oakton. Your credit programs lead to a degree. Your non-credit programs generally lead to a credential. And so they can be faster and more nimble, which is why we in non-credit are the folks that generally come out to meet with businessy business representatives, because we can turn around and give you what you need a little bit quicker than building a whole degree program.

unknown 7:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Um, so coming back to your question about trades, we've got your standard, you know, automotive degrees. Um, you can study HVAC, you can do electrical engineering, all kinds of things toward a degree. And non-credit, we have quite a number of options that'll take you less than a semester. Uh, we've got our CDL truck driver training. Um, there's also CDLB coming, which is more like bus driver training that's coming in the fall. We're starting a welding program in the fall. We already have manufacturing. Um, let's see what else. We hit we train you in OSHA 10 safety standards, uh, a number of trades programs that you can get into very quickly. And now our landscape technician program that we developed uh in collaboration with Jamie from Brightview.

SPEAKER_04 8:41

Okay. And how did you guys meet?

SPEAKER_05 8:43

We met here.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

We did meet here. Do you want to talk about that?

SPEAKER_05 8:46

Uh sure. Well, we were, I think it was a lunch that Pat had here. Um, you guys were talking about a non-credited uh type of a certification. Uh, we're constantly looking for uh ways to bring in people into the industry. And I thought the fit was perfect, and we started talking, and here we are a year later, eight months later. Yeah, about and it's starting over and starting to move forward.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Yeah, just under a year. Um, we're really happy to have come out to the trade collective and been welcomed here to meet with all sorts of trade representatives in lots of different fields. But Jamie was one of the first ones that was like, let's work together now. Let's get something going. We really, really need it in the landscaping field. Um, both commercial, what he represents, and residential, both are hurting. Both of those industries is what we've learned because we don't just go out and talk to one uh representative from one um company. We talk to lots of representatives and we found that the need is all over.

SPEAKER_04 9:44

Jamie, what I love about you is you're not just pushing Brightview, although you're all your team should know you're pushing Brightview. You're wearing a nice shirt today, but but you're also talking about the industry as in general. I mean, what what have you liked about what have you liked about your 40-year career? What what what's been really fun for you uh that that you wish other people kind of knew about that?

SPEAKER_05 10:04

Well, well, to build to build teams, number one, um, and then to see the end project when it's done, right? Yeah. When we just finished the Obama Presidential Center. I mean, what a what a high profile, right? I worked on the Pentagon Memorial. Um those they're very, very satisfying to see those projects finish up.

SPEAKER_04 10:19

Talk to us about the Obama. I mean, that's pretty, pretty exciting.

SPEAKER_05 10:22

Yeah, it's uh well it was it was a three-year process on the feet on the ground, and it was a five-year process, really, from the start of when we started looking at the job. So five years go by, it's a it's it's quick, it's over, but it's a very satisfying feeling to have it done.

SPEAKER_04 10:37

And what kinds of careers and what kind of jobs were happening on that on that build?

SPEAKER_05 10:43

Uh well, anywhere from a field laborer to a supervisor to a project manager, um, safety officers, um, you know, uh administration, I mean you name it from the top to the bottom of of our company, we had people in in those roles on that job. Was it all union or was there union? All union. All union 100% union. Okay. On that side of it.

SPEAKER_04 11:03

Right.

SPEAKER_05 11:04

But then from you know, to the satisfying part also is to build those teams, right? To put the right people together uh for the right project. And we've done that pretty much all over the country, and I've been involved in it all over the Midwest. So those are those are two.

SPEAKER_02 11:16

How do you build those teams? I mean, we've hear a lot in the in the construction trades around like the importance of team, team building. Right. We're a team. How do you, since you're like tasked with uh creating those teams, developing, how do you do that?

SPEAKER_05 11:28

What's the process? Well, I usually try to start with one really strong person that's gonna be in charge of the job, um, and then bring in some people around them and underneath them that or her that will uh basically you know be a part of the team and build it. For example, Shelly Shelly Ryan is a superintendent for us. Um she actually ran the entire Obama project, which at some point in time she had 75 to 80 people working for her at any one given day. So start with start with one really strong person and build a little pyramid underneath her or him.

SPEAKER_04 12:00

I I think you you have a diversity of people that can that you're looking for. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 12:05

Right? Yes.

SPEAKER_04 12:06

Always. Always. Yeah. Um, but for you personally, what what's been exciting for you in the industry? What do you what it would where did you start and how did you get to become Yeah?

SPEAKER_05 12:16

Well, I actually started as an operator. Okay. Um and worked my way up into estimating um project management, uh, branch management um and sales. Um and so I it's been a career, right? I mean, I started out in the field, I worked through every almost every aspect of the of the company uh to where I am today. And now I'm on the back side, right? I'm I'm on the back nine as I call it.

SPEAKER_04 12:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:37

Going going the other way.

SPEAKER_04 12:38

And that's what you would say to other people is get in.

SPEAKER_05 12:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 12:41

Start somewhere and you could end up in marketing, you could end up somewhere else that you never imagined, right?

SPEAKER_05 12:46

In our company alone, and in in most companies uh in the commercial side, there are so many opportunities, right? From field labor to an operator to a foreman to a truck driver, project management, um, administration, um, marketing, finance, sales. I mean, it's it's endless.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

I I have a very like gorgeous what's an operator do?

SPEAKER_05 13:08

Uh they run the heavy equipment.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

Gotcha. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. See, that's that's the ignorance of of education coming in. Like, well, what is that? Right. Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_04 13:16

And the heavy operators, we're not going to get specific, but they make pretty good money. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 13:19

Oh, the industry uh, I mean, as a whole, uh, you know, the industry pays pays well. Yes, I I I absolutely agree with that. Yeah, yeah. You have a nice pension? Yes, we do. Yes, you do. Yes, we do.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

I jump in, I was thinking about how Jamie started with saying that I started as an operator. And I will say that um my manager that who works with me, Ira Alcantara, who developed this program with me, when we have gone out and met lots of the landscaping professionals to talk to about this program to see if we're putting in the right elements, uh, without a doubt, everyone is like, well, I started in the field. So it really does talk up talk about how you can grow and go any direction that you like. Correct.

SPEAKER_05 13:58

I've I've told you this example. We have a guy that's the basically the second in second in command of the entire construction division across the country, started as an irrigation labor 45 years ago.

SPEAKER_04 14:10

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:11

He's now on top of the entire company across the country.

SPEAKER_04 14:15

So um, Leah, you you were here at the trade collective, you met Jamie, you heard Jamie talking and sort of talking generally about the need in the commercial landscaping. What got you excited about that? What you have, I heard the other day 4,000 adult learners, right? Yep. And how many undergrads?

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Oh my goodness. Uh gosh, roughly, roughly, roughly. I think it's like 20,000.

SPEAKER_04 14:39

Yeah. You have lots of people, potential. You've also stood up a program here, a commercial landscaping, and it's starting when?

SPEAKER_00 14:47

July 8th.

SPEAKER_04 14:48

July 8th. So you need to fill those seats to enter, to learn, to go and enter this uh this field. Uh, what's the invitation? What do you, what do you, what are you hoping for?

SPEAKER_00 14:58

Well, you started with what got you excited about this. You know, any field that seems like it has tons of openings is gonna perk up our interest because we want to be supplying students to places that actually have openings rather than what you hear about often coming out of college and not having a job to go into, right? So whenever we hear that, we do the research. What I what is the uh growth expectation of this field over the next 10 years? What are the income prospects? Where can a person go with this uh starting certification? What are the directions they can go into? What are the careers they can go into? And we found that this one is very versatile. Uh, we found that the growth uh over the next 10 years is over 5%. You were getting close to 10%. Um, and and that's high. Uh numbers like 2% you're not looking at. Um, so that's a good growth rate. But I think what is also really appealing is, as I mentioned, the versatility. When you start with a course like this and see all the directions you can take it, I think it's pretty fascinating. You can go into hor horticulture, you can go into landscape design, you can stick with the hard labor if you're somebody who just likes to keep getting your hands dirty. Um, there's a lot of different ways to go. And so as we explored and learned more about it and got our um colleagues at the college involved who are also super excited, that was really fun because on campus, we have our own naturalist and she was like, oh, I'll come to the class, I'll bring my tools, I'll show them our community garden, I'll show them how to grow some things. So that was cool. We also have a sustainability um manager on campus, and she was interested in getting involved. Like everybody else was all like hands in. Yes, yes, we will come talk to them. We will show them the tools and the things that we do on campus as well. So we have a lot of folks ready to jump in and help out.

SPEAKER_04 16:40

What what do you think the I think there's been a struggle to find people to meet this? Is that true? True. Okay. So to the Oakden community, there is an opportunity to students, to people in our community, there's an opportunity to go take a class and get a start in a career in the commercial landscaping. So this is the pathway to get there, correct?

SPEAKER_00 17:02

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 17:03

Speak to it, please. Like how simple is it?

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Well, I think it's what what Jamie said earlier, and that's that people think, oh, I'm just gonna be mowing lawns. Um, and what I love is that we've built a boot camp. It's a short program, it's only five weeks. Uh, you go four times a week with labs twice a week and classroom work twice a week, and then you're ready to be employed and you've seen all the different elements that you might be able to go in this uh field, in these many fields, I should say. Um, so you really get your your toes wet uh and and get out there and get your hands dirty. Uh I guess I like a punt. Um but yeah, as James said, I think that's what people are afraid of. I'm I'm just gonna be mowing lawns, and there's so much more you can do with it.

SPEAKER_05 17:42

Well, and the reason I uh I'm excited about it is people that come through here are gonna be interested in landscaping. It's not just up, I gotta go get a job. I'm gonna do this for maybe this season, and they're not gonna complain. It's helping to self-sele is select self-selection.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

There's an initial investment on behalf of the candidate, too. Right. Yeah. So how's that handoff go? Like that you get the certificate, then what?

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Well, you know, again, having met Jamie here at the trade collective, um, we already have a very nice relationship with Brightview that employs a lot of people. But as we researched um where else the needs were, we developed a relationship with Illinois landscape, um, with the women in landscaping. Uh, we've met some other folks through the trade collective as well, lots of folks hungry to hire.

SPEAKER_04 18:25

The golf industry needs people. The golf industry. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

We met some of the folks in the golf industry at a recent meeting as well. So we have lots of connections to employers ready to go.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

That's a key piece, though, right? I mean, it's a key piece to have multiple partners on the other end of that. So it's a five-week program.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

It is.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

At the end of five weeks, there's there's a there's a huge opportunity for 10 years. Huge opportunities for the for the candidate. I love that. That's like there is.

SPEAKER_04 18:50

We have a number that says there's a need for 600 people in a 10 mile radius to Evanston. 600. In the commercial landscaping sector. Uh-huh. So that's how many hires are needed. So there is opportunity. That's a big number. Yeah. How many seats are available in this class?

SPEAKER_00 19:05

We do cap it at 10 because we like a small teacher to student ratio, and the people using the equipment, you need to keep it safe. So this is just a small group of folks. Um, we also do have scholarships available, which is not necessarily the norm with non-credit classes. So there's a potential that it could be completely covered.

SPEAKER_04 19:23

How much is the class otherwise?

SPEAKER_00 19:25

It is $468, which I think is a bargain.

SPEAKER_05 19:28

Yeah, it's nice. And we do have the labs already set up to go, correct? We do.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:32

Yeah. So they'll look at on equipment training at one of our facilities.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Correct.

SPEAKER_05 19:38

We oh, nice.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

One of Brightviews facilities. Um, we have a local garden shop that also has been willing to work with us. Our course instructor is a wonderful woman who has her own garden shop in the city. Um, I have to look up what the name of it. Her name is Wanda Evangelista. It's called Floral and Landscape Designs, and I want to give her a shout out. Um, what's wonderful about having a business owner, and I'm sorry if I just kicked you, having a business owner as an instructor is students can then see themselves as a potential entrepreneur as well. So I'm not just looking for a career. I could have my own business also.

SPEAKER_04 20:13

Jamie, you and I were playing golf one time and and you were talking about the time the the changes over the time that that community colleges used to be a place where people used to go and learn these things. Yep. Correct? Yep. And somehow we just faded away from that or something happened, something changed. Can you kind of just reminisce about that?

SPEAKER_05 20:35

And I'm not really sure what happened there, but in every aspect in college, your your uh landscape art architectural programs have are dwindling. Um where there used to be sixty, seventy, eighty graduates, you know, they're down to fifteen and sixteen. And these are major colleges that I used to recruit recruit at. Um so it's the whole industry is just kind of, and I'm not sure why. I really don't know why. And maybe because we're not promoting it enough.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

And I find that fascinating because I know you know the the plant daddy and the plant mama industry is huge right now. You would think that this was something that that people were really into.

SPEAKER_05 21:11

I've seen it continually go down a little bit, a little bit each year over the last probably 15 years. I know, I really don't know. Okay. I I couldn't tell you. Um I was my I haven't really done any heavy recruiting in colleges for probably about uh probably about ten years. But at the end of it, when I was when I have started or got out of it, um or turned it over to someone else, the the the numbers were falling off already.

SPEAKER_04 21:36

Yeah. Okay. Uh one to ten, how big is this problem for the commercial landscaping industry? One to ten.

SPEAKER_05 21:45

Oh, I would say it's probably in the seventh. I mean, it's it's been an issue for a long time. I mean, you've heard the same thing from the people you're talking to.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Honestly, in all the trades. You know, there's there's a big cliff of folks who are aging out. Um, and so there's a huge, huge number. Need and and the colleges are seeing that and the high schools are seeing it and and we're starting to put back in programs that they might have pulled out 30 years ago. If you pulled out welding, we're now putting it back in. It's very funny. What's old is new again, but these things are needed again.

SPEAKER_05 22:16

Yeah, for sure. I agree a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

Yeah, I I I I get that. I mean, you know, it's interesting. The the more technology has taken over the world, the more to the backseat everything else goes, the more people want to jump on their computers and do stuff, the more AI is now displacing everybody. We're gonna see a move, I guarantee a move back to the trades and and such. I just it's gonna happen because there's no stability anywhere. Uh you know, you're graduating into a job market that isn't there.

SPEAKER_05 22:47

It's not there. Uh I've told you this story, and I won't mention the university, but the university that does a career trade show for high school students because they're afraid they're not gonna have the tradespeople to build their buildings. Just selfishly. Yes, exactly. For their own university. So they're bringing in thirteen, fifteen hundred kids to this event, not to come to school there, but to introduce them to the trades so that because they're afraid that they won't have the people to build it.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

It just speaks to the existential threat of of the workforce, of like the dwindling workforce and the the the graying cliff where people yeah. I mean, we And it's great to see Oak demobilized, it's great to see ETHS mobilized, you know, it's great to see a reinvestment in in things. Um, our enrollment in our in our introduction to trades class is is it blew up. It's just kids love it. Um, you know, we've been building a house for a long time, we've been welding for a long time. Uh, but in the last couple of years we've seen uh more interest, which is which is fantastic. And I credit that to like the trade collective. I also credit that to just general uncertainty on behalf of parents when they're like, I don't know. I thought it was this four-year degree thing, but now I don't know if the investment is worth it. And you know, a lot of people are realizing it's not uh because especially if you can't pay out of pocket, right? Yeah, if you're gonna carry that debt. So the nice thing is like 450 bucks, was it 450?

SPEAKER_00 24:11

468.

SPEAKER_02 24:12

468. 468, five weeks at a nice handoff to a career, right? To a career lattice where you can grow and develop. I I mean, this is exactly what we want to do. And um, and that's that's the work of the trade collective, right? Collecting supply connecting supply to demand, education to to the skilled trades.

SPEAKER_05 24:34

That's what we were looking for, and that's why we can't or got together is we're looking for the career people, right? Yeah, like I say, not just the guy that wants or the lady that wants to come out work for a summer and they're done. Right. You know, you invest the money in them, you want to keep them. You know, and our our tenure is is very, very good at the company.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

I'm glad you brought that up because I think going back to your earlier question about why do you think people are are lacking interest in this, I think it's also a concern that that there isn't a year-round job available. And there again, are many options for where you can work year-round. Even when you start with sort of the getting your hands dirty part, there's also winter work to do. Um, so growing that out, there's plenty of opportunity for year-round work. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 25:15

When you're building out a class like this or a a program like this, is it nice to know that you have a partner like this? What's what's that like to build?

SPEAKER_00 25:23

It's essential. Absolutely. Uh, even if you weren't here connecting us, which we love that you do, we always reach out to interest industry representatives of whichever uh industry we're researching to grow. You have to. Otherwise, what are you doing? You're not making a program that anybody needs if you don't know what's needed from that employer. Um, so we do start there. Um, it's become a huge uh endeavor of the college to have partnerships for potential employment, not just the voice of what do you need, but will you also hire our folks when we're done? So that's been a uh a big goal of the college lately is to build those partnerships in advance so that we are able to here you go at the end.

SPEAKER_04 26:03

I think that's crucial. I I just want to big say a big shout out. I think Oakden has been a in the two years that we've been working on this, Oakden has really been, I would say, a really good listener and very interested in leaning in this. So I'm I'm I'm thank you for your partnership for everybody at at Oakton that's been part of what we're trying to do. Um I I can't say enough. I mean, we took trips up to Lake County to look at a model and all three buses, there were different people from Oakton, from the president to trustees to, you know, just with notes, taking notes, like how do we, you know, how do we shift, you know, from being just a two to a four community, you know, community college to a four-year college to what does our community really need? And I I I think you guys have been really, really good. I just want to say thanks.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

Well, thank you. I think that you're bringing folks together that need to come together and really m building a wonderful interest directly across from a high school to bring the young folks in and let them see what they might get involved in. I think it's terrific.

SPEAKER_04 27:04

Pete, what are you thinking?

SPEAKER_02 27:06

Yeah, I'm just thinking about what happens when you have a community, you know, uh a college who is uh what was the line? What's the what's the tagline? College of the community? What would it be?

SPEAKER_00 27:16

Oh, it's the community's college.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

Okay, so you're the community's college, and I really think in the last last few years we've seen it. Um, we've seen it through through the willingness to partner, you know, with the high school, with with business partners in the Evanston community. Um, and you know, it it's it's healthcare. We're seeing it again here uh in in in commercial landscaping, but that's the pathway forward, I think. It's a huge investment too. I mean, it's not cheap to online a course, I would imagine. It is no, it isn't.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

It isn't. It's a and it's a lot of time and effort, and that's you know, really where the not cheap part comes in, right? Yeah. It's the time spent to build it up, the research, and all of that. Um, but I'm really glad to hear you say that you're seeing that because that's that's been a huge focus. I mean, we're trying to be out there in the community as much as possible so that folks see us as a potential answer to whatever their hiring educational needs may be.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

Yeah, that ability to be nimble and responsive is is is big.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

You got it.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

Um, and you know, to to see that in those programs, in those, in those non-credit programs is is really great because those credentials are recognized by the industry. Right. Right. Number one. You know, we don't want ones that, you know, we don't want to go down the pipeline of of of really junky credentials that don't matter. That's why the homework is important. That's why talking to folks and having great partners in the business community, that's a game changer. Correct.

SPEAKER_04 28:41

Hey, Jamie, could you just rifle down some of the things that you need, the industry needs and the kind of careers that are that are available for people. You started as an operator, so that's uh I mean that could be a whole career as an operator, right?

SPEAKER_05 28:58

Yeah. Speaking just from the Midwest here and and and working with them, I mean field work is field workers is a is a is a is not is an essential, right? I mean, that's it's hard to fill every spot that that's needed.

SPEAKER_04 29:09

Uh what does a field worker do? Uh labor, basically. Labor. Yeah, yeah. Basic labor. But they're union.

SPEAKER_05 29:15

Some some parts of the business are, some aren't.

SPEAKER_04 29:18

Okay, so your c construction part is your and your what do you say your maintenance. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 29:24

Okay. Correct. Okay. So from field uh to supervision, project management, account management, estimating. I was telling you earlier, estimating is a hard one to find. Almost every position from field all the way up to, you know, I would say a a branch manager, those are positions that are needed now.

SPEAKER_04 29:43

What does an estimator do? Well, like what do what kind of a person is a good estimator?

SPEAKER_05 29:47

Somebody that likes to play or use numbers. Okay. Okay. And and likes to draw on on plans, right? Okay. You know, look at plans all day long, pull data out of out of RFPs, things like that.

SPEAKER_04 29:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 29:59

Um, but almost every position in the in the industry, um, even landscape architects today, which is, you know, a four-year degree. Um there it's it's it's across the board. So if somebody comes in, you know, even as a an account manager, you know, we're we're constantly in in those needs. I mean, I think we've had an open s for an estimator here in the Chicagoland market for six months. Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

It's part of our uh curriculum estimating. Yeah, plan rating, all the things you mentioned. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 30:30

And can I am I allowed to ask what the starting position is for someone like that? Like what for an estimator? What do you mean, starting what is this like starting salary for like an estimator roughly?

SPEAKER_05 30:45

Um somebody coming with no experience at all. Yeah, you're probably in that 65 range. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. In this market in the Midwest.

SPEAKER_04 30:55

Okay. Is that union non-union?

SPEAKER_05 30:57

That's all non-union. That's not that's all in the office.

SPEAKER_04 30:59

Okay, good, good, good, yeah. And where is the office? So people would know.

SPEAKER_05 31:04

Well, we have an office. There's Long Grove, there's Chicago, there's Aperville, there we have Elmhurst. Yep. That's where you're doing your labs. Yep. Um So there's four or five offices in the Midwest region.

SPEAKER_04 31:16

That's great.

SPEAKER_05 31:17

I mean, and you can go into Detroit, you can go to Indianapolis, you can go to, you know, if they want to.

SPEAKER_04 31:22

Yeah. And that's just Brightview. Right.

SPEAKER_05 31:24

That's just Brightview. We're not talking about the whole industry.

SPEAKER_04 31:27

So there's opportunities way beyond.

SPEAKER_05 31:29

All over. Way beyond. There's a couple of commercial landscapers in this market.

SPEAKER_04 31:33

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I just want to say again, thank you for sort of representing the whole industry. You've been talking, yes, you're caring, and it's helpful to have a company the size of Brightview who's able to come and lend themselves and be with us and help us think like this. So you're awesome. I appreciate you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 31:50

I and I appreciate everything that's going on here, even from when I came and presented to you two years ago at the high school. Oh, yeah. You know, it's all starting to come together, which is great. And you've been the driver behind it because I brought everybody together in the team, and then, you know, but you guys are making it. Wonderful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

All the collaborations that we've had with Jamie and again here at the Trade Collective have been very valuable.

SPEAKER_04 32:11

What's next for Oakton? What are some of the things that you're thinking about? Um, you've got commercial landscaping. What are some of the other things? I know you're you're saying uh truck B licenses, which is CDL uh B license, which is uh bus.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

Warrior buses, yeah. So city and school bus will be um CDL B and planning to start that in the fall. As I mentioned, we'll have a welding program um in non-credit. We have it already in credit. This one will be the faster certification again. Um it's a welding one uh in alignment with the AWS American Welding Society uh standards. And because Oakton doesn't have a welding facility, we're working with one of our high school partners. So that class will take place at Glenbrook North uh in Northbrook. Um, and other new programs include our DSP, which is a direct support professional. These are your folks who work with um, say, your day programs for people with disabilities. Um, that one has a high need as well. Uh, another new program. I'm trying to think what else is brand new. Our forklift is still fairly new. That's a one-day training um to get certified to use a stand-up or sit-down forklift. Um, so quite a lot of options out there with us.

SPEAKER_04 33:23

And what does a forklift operator make?

SPEAKER_00 33:26

Well, there's a couple of different types of forklift operators, but they're usually starting in the low $20 an hour range.

SPEAKER_04 33:32

Okay. It's good.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:34

And then there's a life there, though.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

There's a life there. And those do tend to be um fields where there's union positions, which is always nice in terms of benefits.

unknown 33:42

Good.

SPEAKER_04 33:42

Great. What else are we missing here? Is there anything that we need to talk about that we're we haven't covered?

SPEAKER_00 33:47

Yeah. When you're looking for our class, we'd love for you to look at our website um and give us a call. Come on out, explore the program. You don't have to sign up right away. If you just want to hear about it, give us a call. We're at C E, that's for continuing education. So CE.oakden.edu. Um, or you can call our main office. That's 847-982-9888. Obviously, you can look at the website, just type in landscaping. Um, you'll find the class that starts again on July 8th. And again, we've got some scholarship funds that you might qualify for. Um, the class could potentially be totally free. So let's get you in the door.

SPEAKER_04 34:23

Just 10 spots. So uh get get in early here. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 34:26

Get in early. And the in Indy industry, there is uh endless, endless careers. I mean, you've said it, I've said it, I've I've I've lived it, I've seen it.

SPEAKER_04 34:34

So it sounds like almost a guarantee if you sign up for this class that you have a life, possibly.

SPEAKER_05 34:39

You know, I mean, um it's you're willing to go to the class and and you're interested in the career. And it just sounds good.

SPEAKER_02 34:48

It's it's it's it's a way into a career lattice that that goes, that is that just keeps going. Right. Um, which is incredible.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Just over a month, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:57

So if you're sitting at home and you don't know what your kid's doing, it sounds like an infomercial. No, but I mean like for just 450. And you don't have to be a kid, you know.

SPEAKER_05 35:08

This is this is across all ages. Yeah, if you have any interest at all in landscaping, I I would recommend you. That's fantastic. Take the class so that you can because like I say, the the uh the positions are endless. I mean, the numbers are endless.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

As I've been looking at it, it's not just I I think I have an interest in landscaping because I like to think of it more broadly. If you if you like to grow plants, if you like to get your hands dirty, if you like to design, um, there's a lot of elements that can go into it.

SPEAKER_04 35:35

That's great. I mean, just thinking about the Obama Center. Oh, that's so great. How awesome is that. I mean, uh you get to go by these places and see like you're forever tied to this. I mean, you sold the project, right? Right. It was your project. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

That's pretty if if we're being honest, the landscaping is the most beautiful part. It really is.

SPEAKER_05 35:55

Did you go down there?

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Well, no, I've seen all the beautiful photos. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:58

And that yeah. Designed by Michael Van Valkenberg, and we built it. So beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 36:03

What do you what do you like about the project? What's so fun about it?

SPEAKER_05 36:06

Well, just all the technology or the technical pieces of it. I mean, uh, you know, there's 50,000 cubic yards of geo foam on the job, which is basically big pieces of styrofoam that you'll never see. Most of it's over the top of the parking garage. So very highly technical. Soils were all mixed specially and brought in. You know, just a very high technical project.

SPEAKER_00 36:27

See, biology, yeah, science.

SPEAKER_05 36:29

Yeah, we actually are creating an ecosystem in the in the ground.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Oh, yeah. That reminds me of one thing, right? We're talking about biology and science. I failed to mention that with this class, even though you're in non-credit, it can be considered uh credit for prior learning, which is a growing thing um at the colleges. When you take a non-credit class, it's like, oh, but I learned a lot of things. Why can't I use it for credit? So if if you've taken this class, you actually can apply it um to a bio class at Oakton as well.

SPEAKER_04 36:58

Wow. I'm not allowed to ask this question. Don't ask. Well, go ahead. Okay. Is there any age requirement? Or is there any? I know I'm not allowed to ask age requirement. Well, no, I know what am I doing, but I'm not gonna be able to do it. I'm not asking you anyone's in contact our attorneys. Yes. Yeah, no, but I mean, really, it's it's any age.

SPEAKER_03 37:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:19

Well, it's not any age because you're not gonna hire a 15-year-old. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_03 37:22

There's a there's a yeah, there's a gateway. Oh, you got me out of that one. Good job.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

When you're talking about working with heavy equipment and and safety standards, you have 18 and up as the requirement.

SPEAKER_03 37:32

18. Good, good. Yep. That's what I was thinking about. You know? All right.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

What are we gonna do with you?

SPEAKER_03 37:41

You know what? You know what? Yeah, it's all good. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

You worry about you getting in trouble.

SPEAKER_03 37:46

Yeah, we're gonna have to go to the trouble. You think we're gonna have the legal department here at the fired up podcast? We'll just interview HR directors and say, Can I ask this question?

SPEAKER_00 37:59

You need a no button in a button.

SPEAKER_02 38:02

Well, this is great though. What an opportunity. What a real and what a connection.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

Yeah, truly. It's been fun too. I agree. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:10

How do you grow that program though? I mean, so it's 10. Is that that's kind of small? It is but it is kind of nice, actually. But but how do we grow that to meet the needs of the 600 people that are needed on an annual basis in this market?

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Yeah, we usually will start with a small program to get something going.

SPEAKER_04 38:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Um, and then you know the word starts to spread that that's how things build. Our CDL uh truck driving program started really small with a partner off-site. Now we have our own trucks on site for semi-tractor trailers on site that you see driving around with all our oakten pictures on them. So you have to start somewhere in order to bring the folks in and see what you're doing. And hey, how'd you learn about that? And how can I do that?

SPEAKER_05 38:50

Well, my hope would be that if we hire a few of these people that they come back to the class the next time around and talk to the to the new students and promote it in the in the out in the field. For sure. Yeah. That's that's that's what I see.

SPEAKER_02 39:03

What's the frequency with which you run that class?

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Well, because it's brand new, we just got gonna run it this semester. We're also gonna offer it again in the fall, and we may be talking to our friends at some of the high schools to see if we can do it as a do and dual enrollment course as well. Um so in that instance, we would offer it twice in the semester. Um, we did try to uh see if we might do it last winter, but it seemed like it was gonna be hard to do the laps. Um, so that's becomes a bit tricky because you do want that exposure within the class. Um, so it'll be more like a later spring uh to start again.

SPEAKER_04 39:36

Cool. That's great. We're gonna have to have Oakden back on again. This is there's a lot going on there, so thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

Yeah, we're really glad for the opportunity. Thank you both.

SPEAKER_04 39:45

Yeah. All right. Any last things before we shut down here? Just looking forward to where this is gonna go. Yes, indeed. Well, we have a gift.

SPEAKER_02 39:51

There we go. We have a gift for y'all. Yes. Okay. I think you grew up. There you go. From the sauce studio to your hands, to your barbecue.

SPEAKER_04 40:01

This is the sauce studio named after Hecke Powell, who is a uh a kind of a legend in our town and was a big guy on workforce development. Okay. And uh passed away uh during COVID, and uh we uh we're we're we're honoring him by uh giving you all some uh some sauce. Well, thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

If you grew up here and you didn't go to Heckies regularly, you I don't know what you were missing. That's crazy. Something was wrong.

SPEAKER_04 40:23

Right, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_05 40:25

Thanks for being here. Thank you so much. Thanks for all that you're doing. Yeah, and thanks for the last couple of years, you know. We've we've definitely made some great friendships here.

SPEAKER_03 40:34

Thank you. Great.