Episode 21 Susan Phuvasitkul: From Advertising to Therapy And What It Teaches Us

In this episode, Kat chats with Susan Phuvasitkul. After 25 years of telling corporate brand stories, Susan is helping people rewrite their own. A former advertising writer and creative director in New York City, she is now a second-year master's student in Clinical Mental Health Counseling at Yeshiva University. There, she has found a renewed sense of purpose helping others create meaningful change while embracing a new chapter of her own life. Leaving behind the relentless pace and pressure of corporate life, she has discovered the gift of presence—for her clients, her friends, and family especially her partner Chris, and her two children, Quincy and Lucinda. 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/susan-phuvasitkul-7753953/

Transcript

Welcome To Hip Talks

Speaker 1 0:00

Hello everyone and welcome to Hyp Talks. I'm your host, Katherine Hinchey. I'm a certified hypnotherapist, NLP practitioner, and SHRM Senior Certified Professional in Human Resources. After spending a decade working in the music industry, my path led me into the world of the healing arts, where science, energy, mindset, and transformation all meet. Each week, I sit down with a different healing practitioner to explore the many powerful modalities available to support our growth, well-being, and personal evolution. So come with me on this journey of discovery and learn about all the opportunities for healing and transformation that are available to all of us.

Speaker 1 1:29

After 25 years of telling corporate brand stories, Susan is helping people rewrite their own. A former advertising writer and creative director in New York City, she is now a second-year master's student in clinical mental health counseling at Shiva University. There, she has found a renewed sense of purpose, helping others create meaningful change while embracing a new chapter of her own life. Leaving behind the relentless pace and pressure of corporate life, she has discovered the gift of presence for her clients, her friends, and family, especially her partner Chris and her two children, Quincy and Lucinda. Welcome, Susan. And I just have to say in full disclosure, I'm very familiar with your partner Chris and your children, Quincy and Lulu. And um, we know each other because our kids are friends. Your son and my son are close to the same age. Quincy's a little younger. And we've known each other for many years, um, good family friends. So it feels like we're just sitting down having coffee like we typically do. So welcome.

Speaker 2:38

Yes, thank you, Kat. It's such a pleasure to be here. I mean, in this professional context, I mean uh I we've only known each other as friends through the years. And in fact, our kids grew up together, right? Our boys

Meet Susan And Her New Path

Speaker 2:49

like have known each other since they were, I mean, hobbling around as toddlers. So it's so nice to be able to talk on a different level.

Speaker 1 2:58

So tell us, Susan, about this new path that you're on and what you're doing, who you're helping, and how.

Speaker 3:07

I'm really in discovery mode as far as who would like to help. I mean, I'd like to help everybody, of course, but I think um as a starting therapist now in training, I I've yet to find that certain population that that I'm I'm driven to. I mean, I am starting to work with young people from uh my first internship starts next month, and uh I'll be working with young people from 16 to 26. Um, and they are New York City residents who have dropped out of high school, and I am helping them get back on track to kind of discover what they want to do with their their lives and their future, whether that's um vocational training or going back to school or what have you. I am intrigued by this population. I have worked on a volunteer basis with young people in the past and also having young, like middle-aged kids of my own, and you know, you're cat, you're very familiar with them. Like, I am surrounded by uh Quinceine Lucinda and their friends and seeing their growing pains, and I'm fascinated every day about you

Supporting Teens And Young Adults

Speaker 4:18

know how growing up now is so different than the way we grew up in New York City specifically. They have a different set of challenges, but with social media and with post-pandemic um educational system and AI, they are, I would say, more challenged than they are blessed. And I think that there's a lot of hurdles they're gonna need to overcome. So I am very fascinated with that population and and I and I'm I'm gonna start there. But, you know, as far as other populations, I mean, there's so many that I mean, I love the senior, the older adult population. I'm I'm fascinated by them. And, you know, as we age now in middle age ourselves, like it is it's becoming realer and realer. And just, you know, as our parents, our aunts, and our uncles, they all start aging, it is definitely something I'm I'm more in touch with and something that I'm much more interested in. So I mean, at this moment, there's so many different populations I want to I want to help. And I'm at the beginning of my journey, and it's and it's exciting um to be able to figure it out.

Speaker 1 5:28

Yeah, so that is very exciting. And talk to me a little bit about what brought you to to make this switch. What brings you to want to be a therapist?

Speaker 5:42

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a journey, right? As you just read my bio, I have not been in a direct helping position in my entire life. I have been working in marketing and advertising, which is, I mean, the antithesis of it in so many different ways. But I've always found myself to be an empathetic person and I've always really cherished connection. So, you know, in a lot of ways, um in advertising and marketing, you're trying to connect with people, obviously in a very different way. Um, you're you're selling, but it is trying to reach people's hearts and minds. So it's it's not super far removed. But now I I've reached a time in my life where I'm looking for a little more life fulfillment and working directly with people is something I'm really looking for. It also coincides with middle life for me. At almost 52, I'm definitely feeling this desire to give back a little bit more, right? And also it gives me the time and the presence to be not only with clients, but I'll be able to spend

Why She Leaves Corporate Life

Speaker 6:50

more time with my family and my friends. And just, I mean, it it's been a whole rebalancing of values, if you will. And yeah, I'm definitely ready to do something a little more hands-on.

Speaker 1 7:06

So I know from just dipping the my big toe in the water of the world of psychology in the last year, that there are many different modalities that therapists utilize and practice in. Is there one that you tend to feel more aligned with or that resonates more with you in terms of how you'll work with your clients?

Speaker 7:35

As a first-year grad student, I'm I'm entering my second, I'm doing a summer session, you're exposed to a number of them and you do these survey classes, and you never really dive in too deeply, but you do, you know, you read your 40 pages on every every modality that, you know, of popular modalities, you know, and maybe in class you discuss, you spend 20 minutes discussing a modality, but we're really not diving in too deeply. And, you know, that's that's sort of a challenge because when we do these role play exercises in class and you're expected to play out a modality, it's really very limited unless you're doing a lot of outside work, and there's not a lot of time to do outside work, right? So I am trying to read books on different modalities and I'm trying to watch sessions, but the reality

ACT DBT CBT And Meaning

Speaker 8:26

is like grad school is very labor-intensive in the mental health counseling study. And I will say I don't have a lot of time, but I'm trying to like go deep in like a day if possible. And and right now I'm fascinated by ACT, DBT, some CBT, the existential therapies. I'm really very interested in. And I think like so many therapists these days, um, we're we're all starting or we're practicing from an integrated standpoint. And I think that's it, that it makes the most sense because with so many different populations and so many different needs, I don't feel that every therapy is going to be effective for every person. So I think as a therapist for today, especially for those accepting any kind of insurance at all, you really have to be thinking about what works in what in that specific time period. And yeah, and I think, you know, with that mentality, I I am thinking about the best modalities to work in.

Speaker 1 9:31

And I just do you know just for the listeners clarifying some of those modalities that you mentioned that ACT, CBT, DBT.

Speaker 9:44

Yes, of course. So I I will say just from an overall standpoint, I'm a very practical person. I'm Asian American, you know, like I can't escape this very practical mindset I have. And if you study at all a multicultural populations, you know, the the literature always goes back to how Asian Americans not only are we collective, but we we want more directive therapies and more practical, you know, and and I can't escape that background. And so that does also lead me to more um practical modalities. And ACT, it's the acronym is um acceptance commitment therapy. And the the basic idea is that, you know, in our lives uh we have these thoughts and and they may not be working for us, but you know, at the end we just kind of we don't fight them and we we don't, you know, there's there's a lot of like CBT specifically, which is cognitive behavioral therapy. I think a lot of people are very familiar with with that one because there's books and books written about it. And that's about you know, readjusting your thinking and taking your negative thoughts and and you know, and looking at them from a different perspective. Whereas ACT and the acceptance of them is thoughts are more like mental events. They're not negative or positive, but they're just you know things that we have and and and they're not truths, and we we can't um treat them as truths, right? And so we can't allow allow them to control us. And and if we're able to mind be mindful enough and diffuse from those thoughts, and we instead commit to our values, and that's the C in ACT. So it's acceptance commitment therapy. If we commit to our values, we live life in a very different way. So it's this idea that like we can't get rid of our negative thoughts. They're gonna be there, but like, how do we live with them and how do we create a life still worth living? I am very it's a very simple idea and one that resonates with me greatly. The other one is similar that resonates with me, is DBT, and DBT is dialectical behavioral therapy, and that's also about acceptance, but it's about the balance of acceptance and change. You know, dialectical being like there's balance in life, you know, and and with the DBT, it's slightly different in that there's acceptance, but with that acceptance, you can also change. So there's never a but, there's always an and. So there's it's a slightly different way of seeing it. But I I do uh love this idea of acceptance and not fighting what we can't. And both therapies use mindfulness. Mindfulness is just, you know, I I know Kat, you work a lot in mindfulness, but it's just the idea that you're aware, right? You're aware of your thoughts, you're aware of what is a thought and what's what's real and what's not, right? And that is sort of the basis for both of those therapies. So those are more practical. I'm also very fascinated by existential therapies. And, you know, like as we get older, it's sort of like what we we ask ourselves, what is the meaning of life? Now, what is the meaning and purpose of why we're here? And it always goes back to like, you know, whether we struggle with our past or not, like we bring it into our here and now. And I love getting back into the here and now and and the meaning of things. And so I would love that to be sort of underlying in all of my work. Yeah, so that's sort of where I am. And and I'm still such a novice. Um, I haven't had real clients. I've I've done role plays, I've I've done AI simulation, which is a whole new world. And and going to school now with AI and AI bots and doing it's so unreal to me in a world where, like, I don't know, when I went to undergraduate, like I barely used my email. I don't think I even I had an email address. I don't think I ever touched it, you know. And so it's it's just a new time. It's it's mind-blowing.

Speaker 1 14:06

Speaking of AI, what are your thoughts about, you know, people are using AI as their therapist? I know. Not just in practicing to become a therapist, but as being an actual therapist. I hear about it all the time as a hypnotherapist. And I ask, do you you know, have you ever done talk therapy? Oh, with AI.

Speaker 14:32

I mean, it's a reality, right? And there have always been uh textbooks, right? And there's always been self-help, and that definitely helps people. And I I feel like if it's used properly, it can help people, right? It's sort of a self-help method. Sure. I mean, I I just and and Kat, you know, you probably agree with me. It's like AI does not replace people. I mean, the therapeutic alliance is is something that we talk about all the time in school, and that's sort of the basis of a successful therapeutic relationship, right? Like that's sort of that alliance, that unconditional regard, the support, like looking at someone and finding empathy, like that, you're not getting that from a robot. I mean, can you get tools and and strategies and techniques, maybe like CBT, like uh how to readjust your thinking to

Can AI Replace A Therapist

Speaker 15:26

perceive something a little bit differently? I think that you know, AI can help you with that. And and I so I I wouldn't say that it's a terrible thing. I think it can help people. I just don't think it's the same thing.

Speaker 1 15:39

I agree. I feel like, well, in you you call it the therapeutic alliance and hypnotherapy, we call it rapport. And that is in my mind the most important aspect of receiving healing. I guess nobody really gets healed from somebody else. You receive guidance to heal yourself. Everyone heals themselves. But in order to have that sort of space and holding space for that, it's that person, it's that connection, it's that and maybe people feel that with AI. It just is surprising to me. I find so much in you will too, I'm sure, and you probably have already with you know in school and practicing, but so much of it is just intuitive when you cross over, when to start to lean into the existential aspect of it versus when to lean into the acceptance or the change or you know, all of that stuff, and when somebody really needs this or that, and it's intuitive.

Speaker 16:41

Absolutely. AI can't read people that I mean it it just can't. I think if someone's looking for something very simple and just they're looking for a tool, you know, they're looking for tips on how to sleep better. I I I mean, I guess you can find that, and I'm sure AI can help you, but as far as a real connection, it's it's you know, AI can't provide that. But like you said, I you know, people find the weirdest things. You know, we've seen the news articles where AI gets people to do terrible things. Yeah, you know, so we do know it's it's a force and it could be for good and it could be for evil. And you know, that's a scary thing. I would just hope that well, I don't even think we need to hope. I I just think we're not replaceable.

Speaker 1 17:29

You know?

Speaker 17:30

Yeah.

Speaker 1 17:31

And what are your thoughts about the role that therapy plays in people's lives?

Speaker 17:38

You know, as a a person wanting to become one, like you know, it's shocking to me. Um, I'm in school now and I've I would say my cohort is about 50, and there's a good percentage that have never been to therapy. And so you wonder, are they going to school to get therapy? Because so much of my program is, you know, you really do deep dive deep into yourself and you dive deep into you know your relationships with other people and you start diagnosing the people around you. And and so it's kind of a fascinating experience. I mean, I think a lot of people walk around without therapy, you know. Although I am shocked these days, I know more and more teenagers. You know, I'm a mom, you're a mom. I know I talk to a lot of parents, and I know a lot of their kids, and a lot of them are in therapy now. I think the role of therapy in the future is definitely going to be greater. I think a lot of these kids that came out of the pandemic are are more anxious than ever. They're more insecure, they have less social skills. I think that you know, being in front of screens more and more, they haven't had a chance

Therapy’s Growing Role For Kids

Speaker 18:51

to develop them. And so, you know, they're lacking them and there's a real struggle. You know, kids are struggling. And so I think that the role of therapy is going to be greater and greater for for young people. I think when we're talking overall, I think a lot of people go without therapy that can really use therapy. And, you know, and then there are the people who are highly well, what's the verb? I guess it therapized. I don't know what it is that they rely on therapy for years and years, and you know, and you don't see much change going on. I mean, I think it's such an individual process, right? Therapy is so individual. And and I would hope that with this new generation that they are reaching out for help, they know that they need help because I I mean I and I see it now. There's a failure to launch, you know, it was happening pre-pandemic with um the kids coming out of school, like and just not finding work and not finding motivation to get out there for whatever reason. And there's so many different reasons for it, you know, whether you can blame it on helicopter parenting, you can blame it on a terrible job market, you can blame it on a million different things. But you know, kids are moving home and maybe just for a few years to get, you know, their their sea legs um to get out into the world. And and you know, some are doing it successfully and some are staying a lot longer. And and I feel like that's happening more and more, and they need help, you know, like there is no manual. And I think therapy is the the closest thing to that. Interesting.

Speaker 1 20:25

And is there something that you have learned in your schooling so far that you were surprised to learn about or that you think others would be surprised to know?

Speaker 20:38

What has surprised me about diagnosis is it's necessary for insurance purposes. So you may go into therapy, not necessarily wanting an official diagnosis because it is in your medical records once you get a diagnosis. Um, but you you have to have one for insurance to to pay, to pay out. And, you know, sometimes, you know, um, I think most therapists, we come from counselors, mental health counselors come from a wellness perspective, which means we actually are anti-diagnosis because it's we don't pathologize our clients, you know. We're really just trying to help people live better lives, but it is a it's it's a necessary evil. And it's something I've learned that we need to balance as uh mental health counselors. And many times I think counselors just go to sort of for something, you know, that seems like anxiety, like you go with something like generalized anxiety disorder, you know, something pretty vague and it and it buys you, I think it's like I don't, I'm not sure,

Diagnosis Insurance And Transparency

Speaker 21:45

it buys you a few weeks, you know, of therapy without, you know, a further diagnosis. But it is something that challenges me and it it and I think it's something that clients don't know. Um, they are diagnosed. I think I've been in therapy and I had never. idea that I was officially diagnosed.

Speaker 1 22:02

You know, that's so funny that you say that and the repercussions actually are can be deeper than you think. Years ago I was well many years ago before I quit smoking, I tried to quit smoking using well beautrin and it did not help me quit smoking. But a number of people mentioned how much calmer I seemed to be. Yama. I didn't really notice it myself. Then years later when I was struggling with some life challenges and feeling like, oh, I remember that well beauty people said it made me calmer. I asked my doctor could I try that for she said sure. She had to diagnose me and I didn't know that. And then when I tried to up my life insurance I got denied. Oh my goodness there you go. Yeah because I had the diagnosis of depression.

Speaker 22:55

Yeah of course and was she forthcoming that she had to diagnose you to get that prescription no so that to me has been shocking. The lack of transparency is so so scary. Yeah the fact that you were denied insurance years later and and that's the thing like none of us are thinking long term you know but I feel like a doctor has that obligation. A therapist has an obligation to say and I I will you know like I just just so you know I am I I need to officially diagnose you know for this therapy. I think you know a generalized anxiety disorder probably won't you know stop you from getting insurance in the future but you know it it's in a spirit of transparency.

Speaker 1 23:42

I think it's really important to know but yeah depressions are real diagnosis and and and I you know that actually shocks me and then and and that really upsets me actually you know to know that it's that powerful full disclosure this was years ago so maybe it's come a way since then but I just remember being completely blindsided and flabbergasted and was like what do you mean oh because I was taking well butrin yeah okay you know like and I know that I could my diet I don't know what the full diagnosis is.

Speaker 24:15

I could probably find it but I I know it couldn't be the severe depression no no no there's levels of depression and I guess if it's enough to have any kind of medication for it they can deny extra life insurance yeah and I would also say that the um DSM five we're on now you know the diagnostic manual that we we go by that changes all the time. True um yeah it changes all the time and there's there's depression just you know there's temporary depression related to like grief or something like that that you know I don't know if like they can hold that against you but you know who knows you know like it's just a lot it's a lot of knowledge and even you have that knowledge if someone even told you that you'd be diagnosed with depression you may not even have second guessed it then because you didn't think about the future and being potentially denied like insurance it's it's just it's so crazy. Yeah it is crazy.

Speaker 1 25:16

And then you think about diagnosing patients, clients for example the internship that you're gonna be doing are all of those young people going to have to have a diagnosis or is it because it's a nonprofit clinic and they aren't going with insurance or how would that work? Because they're young.

Speaker 25:34

I'm I'm assuming that they probably will need diagnoses because it is still I'm assuming it's still going to go through like Medicaid or what other insurance they have. Yeah and so it it that I mean that's who I'm I will always be beholden to unless they're free services. I mean specifically I'm not sure it's it's kind of a government agency so who knows.

Speaker 1 25:59

What do you think is the number one benefit to therapy?

Speaker 26:05

Could be more than one but what do you think are the benefits? It's a really good question. It's a big question right like what is therapy good for people need support you know people need help people can't figure it out themselves. You know Kat, I think the other day I gave you a good analogy that I read in an ACT textbook about how I might be on a mountain and my client is on another mountain and we're both on mountains but what I can see I can't necessarily see what's on my mountain but I can look over my client's mountain and I can see all of like the different avalanches that may that may appear or the detours that that client might be able to take and you know that he just he or she can't see and I think it's just a different perspective that I think people really need. You know especially if you're struggling you just can't see beyond the struggles. I think it's like having an ear it's having someone there who is listening to you and supporting you unconditionally in our daily lives we don't have that. Even if it's a friend or it's your mom or whoever it is or your kid and they're like supportive but there's only just so much that they can give you and and be there

Perspective As Therapy’s Biggest Gift

Speaker 27:25

for you. I think a therapist or a counselor just goes beyond makes that effort to help you and help you see things that you don't I think you know one of the challenges many of us face day to day is just stress right and and how we manage it and you know some of us are much more successful at managing it and some of us just are terrible at it. But you know ultimately it takes a toll on our mental health it takes a call on our toll on our physical health what can we do what can we do to manage that well there are dbt skills and I mentioned dbt before it's dialectical balance uh dialectical behavioral therapy in essence it's about balancing acceptance with change. So how do we manage stress and accept accept it if we can't change it and then at the same time take action to change what we can right so one of the tools that DBT uses is it's called wise mind and it's about targeting your wise mind. In DBT there are three states of mind there's the emotional minds which is hot and reactive there's the reasonable minds which is the cool and logical right and then and we know these minds right and we all have them and then there's that wise mind and this is that balanced middle path and so if we take a stressor in our lives say for instance let's just take a stressor like I'll take something very specific to my life you know I have three big finals this week how am I going to manage that right am I going to look at it through my three different minds. So in my emotional minds I would be all you know I'm stressed out I'm freaked

DBT Wise Mind For Stress

Speaker 29:14

out I'm never gonna make it I'm I'm gonna fail I'm gonna fail I'm gonna fail and then in my reasonal mind I'm like nope I'm just gonna I'm gonna study and I'm just gonna do it and I'm gonna make it I'm just not gonna sleep and I'm gonna you know I'll get through it yeah and then but if you're able to take both of those thoughts and both of those ways of thinking and and balance them and create something from a wise mind perspective what would that be? That would be something like okay I have I have these three finals to take I am stressed out and gonna study and take five minute breaks every hour to to get through it because I'm gonna be because that's going to allow me to to study smarter. You know and it's and it's this idea of balance. So I think if anyone has a stress in their minds I think if you're able to separate it into these different emotional states so your emotional mind, your reasonable mind and thinking about them and creating your wise mind, that might be a way you can approach your stress I love it. I'm already thinking about how I'm gonna manage this yeah I I think more than anything it's more about accepting that you have an emotional state you know you're not denying that like you're freaked out. Like I think it's very important. You're not fighting that it's there it's there but like how do I take that acknowledge it and then also change you know and that's the beautiful thing with DBT I I think that you know I I've grown up with a lot of stress in my life my dad was very stressful to me and I've had to reconcile it like he's still in my life he still causes me stress but I don't fight it anymore right like I I accept it and it's more like okay it's there and what can I do? That's wonderful. And I would say that I would take 10 minute breaks every hour just to give yourself a yes yes yes okay 10 minutes sounds great uh actually Kat you shared one with me that I thought was great. Didn't you tell me about how to study like you did you have a no no you know who did our friend Mariska. So what she does is you study for 30 minutes and then you take a break for 15 minutes. You study for 45 minutes you study for an hour you take 30 minute break and then you study for two hours and you take I know it just progresses and you study for two hours and then you take a 30 minute break or something like that. There's a progression she has a s of a strategy it's great. Oh that's great.

Speaker 1 31:58

Yeah when I work with students that are looking for test confidence for the New York City high school tests I also coach not necessarily in that way but I do outline putting in breaks we do a whole actually writing out a daily schedule and the studying and then we write out the studying schedule along with the breaks.

Speaker 32:25

It's so important it's so important and also making sure that your blood sugar doesn't dip so that you have some protein snacks around yeah yeah I think we forget that part of it right like we really have to be mindful of our physical health right like and and how we're right like whether it's diet and food and and making sure we're we have the nutrition and we're hydrated right and we have enough sleep I think that we don't think about these basic things but it's so important. I mean I think one of the first questions you ask um a client who's anxious and and stressed out like are you sleeping? You know like sleep drives so many issues you know and I think that people don't realize it you know it's like well you know I'm really stressed out and I'm really you know depressed and I'm really you know and it the list goes on and on and it's like well are you sleeping you know and most of the times it's no and you don't know what's the chicken and what's the egg right like are they anxious because they're not sleeping or are they not sleeping because they're anxious and probably both yeah exactly but I mean sleep hygiene is such a thing you know exactly yeah I you almost have to attack that first because symptoms will disappear once you get sleep not only is your body regenerating itself when you sleep and doing lots of important things but your mind is also so it has so many tasks to do while sleep. Absolutely absolutely yeah your mind like your your mind is going to think crazy thoughts if you're not sleeping

Sleep Hygiene As A Foundation

Speaker 34:15

you know so yeah so that's that's a big deal and I think that that's not we don't pay attention to that enough.

Speaker 1 34:22

And that whole saying I really relate to is sleeping on it.

Speaker 34:28

Sleeping on yeah I agree with that.

Speaker 1 34:30

Because there always does seem to be a completely fresh perspective.

Speaker 34:36

And it's like when you write something one night and then you don't send it if it's an email you have to wait you have to wait and sleep on it and the next morning you you your mind is so much clearer right like you see it in such a different way sleep. I feel if anything a therapist that's the number one thing a therapist can say you know yeah like are you are you sleeping and how do we get you to sleep yes I love it.

Speaker 1 35:02

Wonderful okay Susan this has been so fun thank you for coming and sharing all of your insights you've always been the mom that we go to for advice and for to talk to talk things out with and so or not just the mom but the friend to go to and um so it made total sense to me that this was you know the shift that you were making and I'm I'm excited for you on this new journey that you're taking you're gonna be so helpful to so many people. Thank you. You've been listening to Hip Talks Original music by Tracy Moore and the Jazzy Fat Nasties Podcast editing and sound engineering by Zachary Trainer. If you like what you heard please like and share and follow us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and if you make a comment I promise I will respond give for love to live your gifts a give give for love to live you give to give so close