The Impact Series: Kelly Kopp

Mike and Kelly talk about The Great Salt Lake, aliens and a whole lot more on The Impact Series. 

Transcript

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Hello, and welcome to the Impact series on the Green Builder Media Network. I'm your host, Mike Kalignan. On this podcast, I'll have one-on-one conversations with leaders and innovators from a wide variety of disciplines. We'll talk about how they got into their field, the lessons they've learned, and advice they have for future generations of leaders. Today I'll be speaking with Kelly Cope. She has been a professor of plants, soil, and climate at Utah State University since 2001. She recently authored a report that examines how to balance water conservation with the benefits of green spaces, with a focus on urban areas. Kelly, welcome to the Impact series. Thanks, Mike. Thanks for having me. I wanted to kind of get into, first of all, your your educational background. You you have an undergraduate degree in natural resource conservation and soil science, you have a master's in hydrology, and you have a doctorate in agronomy and turf grass science. So it seems to me like you knew exactly what you wanted to do with your career at an early age. Oh, that is hilarious. That is hilarious. No, the answer is in fact no. Did not. I think I have been looking back now, I can say I've been incredibly fortunate in what at the time seemed to be very random choices and decisions in my education. But in the end, I think, looking back, that they all tied together nicely. And I was able to join this department that I've been in now for 25 years of plant soils and climate, which kind of brought all of those things together in a really positive way. And by the way, this department at the time when I was looking for work was the only department of its sort in the country, that at least that I knew about. And so I just couldn't believe there was a department that brought all of the things together that were part of my educational background. It was like, what? This is amazing. So I've been here ever since. Well, I was gonna say, you you started your undergraduate at Texas AM, and then you go east to the University of Connecticut, uh, but then you head back west to Utah. So is is it is it because of the specific department that they had that fit your background? Well, um a little bit of history on that, I guess, personal history. So I grew up in Texas, which is why I landed at Texas AM and and um worked on natural resource conservation there in soil science. But then also, you know, I'd spent my whole life in Texas, and um my parents were in fact from New England. They had they had grown up in New York. And so I thought it might be a good idea to just experience a different part of the country. I mean, I don't know if you've spent much time in Texas, but Texas is it is a unique place. Um, it is very it it they look inward quite a bit. Texas is all about Texas is all about Texas, which is fine. Uh, but I was looking for some other things. And so that's why I went to the University of Connecticut. I was just sort of cold calling, you know, professors and saying, hey, I want to go to graduate school. What do you think? Then the one who replied to me with the best offer was in Connecticut. So that's where I went. Um but then um I did live in New England for almost 10 years, and it was a really different place. And um I liked it. I liked the fact that there was a lot of water there. It was very green, unlike where I grew up, which was much drier. And so I was, you know, always water has always been kind of in the background for me. But in Connecticut, it was more about water quality and and challenges related to water quality as opposed to water quantity, which is what I had grown up with, that challenge. Um but when I was finishing up my degree, I had a friend who had already come out here for a job. She she and I had gone to graduate school together in Connecticut, and she said, there's this position opening up. I think you'd be perfect for it. And I had been to Utah once before that. And Utah is a stunningly beautiful state. It is, it, it just the one time I had been here, I said to myself, literally, if I can ever live here, I will do it. And so that was the first and only job I applied for when I was finished with my PhD, and I've been here ever since. Wow. Yeah, I was gonna say, you you have spent your entire career at at Utah State. What was the what was the first class that you taught there? Uh irrigation design, actually. Yeah. So um I this was a class we didn't have actually at the university. And students in my department, as well as landscape architecture, needed a basic irrigation design course. And so um they also needed a course that was quantitative. We call it a quantitative course here, meaning that it has a decent amount of math. Um, so our students have to have some of those courses. They have to have quantitative, qualitative, et cetera. Um, and so our students needed that quantitative credit. The landscape architecture students needed it. So I offered to develop it. Um and it's uh it was challenging, but also incredibly helpful for students, you know, both in our program and landscape architecture. And it really integrated irrigation design into my head, that's for sure. But it's all, you know, it's about the hydraulics and and how you lay things out and all of those things, what water pressure. I mean, if landscape architectures and designers don't have a handle on that stuff, they can't design efficiently, right? So it was very much focused on um efficient irrigation design for the purposes of water conservation. Okay. And at that point, I don't think the Quell program existed yet, did it? No, no, no, no. That came much later. So that qualified water efficient landscaper program that came later. And that came out of California and has become, I guess it's national, but but it's really heavily focused on the southwestern part of the country. But that certification program, um, we certainly provide it here in Utah, but it's provided all over the West. And it it helps landscape contractors learn more about water efficient irrigation practices and how you determine irrigation schedules and what considerations can be made, how you test irrigation systems. But that's been another really fun thing to be involved with. And we've trained hundreds of folks at this point in the state of Utah, um, which isn't to say we're slowing down at all. I think we need that type of program more than we ever have, especially considering the drought situation we are currently in. And we're gonna get to that in a minute, believe me. Yeah, yeah. Elephant in the room. I'm curious as to, you know, you started out teaching irrigation design. What are you teaching now? Well, I am not actually teaching in the classroom on campus any longer. Okay. I gave that up in 2018 when I went on sabbatical. I was out of the country for a year. And so I gave that to a colleague who's been teaching it ever since. And and my position here at USU is actually meant to be more public-facing. So I do a lot of research here, but then I'm out, I have a statewide responsibility. So I'm working with state agencies, cities, any all the way down to individual citizens who need any support in my area of expertise. So when I was teaching, I was kind of doing that out of the goodness of my own heart, I'll put it that way. But uh later on, you know, it was always it was always hard to integrate that into all my other tasks and duties. And so now I'm I'm sort of shifted my focus again back to my public outward-facing work and teaching. So I still do a ton of teaching. It's just not students on campus teaching. So you're doing that work through the extensions, right? Correct, yeah. So I'm a professor, but I'm also what's called an extension specialist. So um land grant universities like Utah State have um extension systems, and we have specialists in certain topic areas, like I'm the water conservation and turf grass specialist. Um, but we've got specialists across a wide range of disciplines, and that's our role. We really support everyone in the state in our various areas of expertise. And it's an incredible system. I think hopefully your your viewers slash listeners learn at least that much about um what they have available to them in terms of resources because it's available in every state in the United States and every county. So whatever support someone might need, they can call those offices and get some help on literally any topic. No, they are fantastic. I I've used them here in Illinois. Um I I I echo your statement that it's a second that anybody can utilize those services. They are incredibly helpful. Um I reached out to them about a tree situation. Yeah. And uh they were very helpful in that regard. So, yes, I would definitely encourage anybody listening or watching this to um to check out your extension services in your state. Yeah. Um when you were in the classroom, uh 2001 to 2018, um how did your curriculum have to change over the years? Do you have to make adjustments? Absolutely, absolutely, and for really positive reasons in my mind. Um, so when I started teaching that class, we did not have nearly the the types and numbers of irrigation technologies that we have available to us now. And so over the course of teaching, it was like, all right, you know, maybe we had standard irrigation controllers and standard sprinklers and nozzles, but then we started to have smart irrigation controllers come into the picture and different types of sprinkler nozzles that were more efficient, and even things like pressure regulating sprinkler heads, which pressure is the number one issue in irrigation. It's something that needs to be correct. If it's not, you can underwater, you can overwater, you can wastewater. So it's incredibly important. And so all of these technologies started coming into the picture. And what that the the basic design aspects don't change, but the fact that you can integrate these new technologies and make your systems that much more efficient, that changed a lot. I mean, I feel like we went in in some sense, we went kind of from the dark ages to the light with all that stuff. I mean, maybe I'm being a little dramatic. Uh, but I mean, so I started doing research in combination, like I'm teaching the class, right? But in the field, I'm doing research with some of this stuff, like smart irrigation controllers, for example. And the water savings potential is just incredible. I mean, we were demonstrating 50% and more reductions in water applications by using smart irrigation controllers, not changing a thing in the landscape, just using those smart controllers, which integrate local weather data, right? So not only was it saving water, but it's more healthy for the plants as well, because it's irrigating according to what's happening there in their local weather system. So that's something that's been great is to be able to do research that complements things in the classroom and outside the classroom as well. And I wanted to get into the nuance of smart meter for just a moment, if I can. So you're talking about smart meters that are that are uh relying on local weather data as opposed to some of those smart meters that rely on like either moisture levels in the soil or uh recent rainfall or like it it's it's tying into weather data via Wi-Fi. Some of them, yes. But some of them actually have sensors co-located on site. Okay. Um and some of them, I mean, it just really depends on the specific controller, but they get that information in different ways. I will say that the trend is more towards Wi-Fi, as you mentioned. Um it's like the Internet of Things, right? I mean, like I can control my own home irrigation with my phone literally from anywhere in the world as long as I've got internet access. It's remarkable. And it's getting that local weather information and integrating that. But it is somewhat different from soil moisture sensor-based control that you just mentioned. Um, those are installed on-site, they're connected directly to the controller, and that's how they schedule irrigation. Very, very water conserving devices, by the way. Big fan of those as well. Um, but yeah, most of the other smart controllers are using Wi-Fi information to schedule irrigation coupled with the app on a phone. Yeah. And then for those who aren't familiar with some of these smarter irrigation technologies, what's the power source then for those for those sensors? Are they in the soil? Are they in the home? Uh, where are they located and what's their power source? Well, so a soil moisture sensor would be directly connected to an irrigation controller, which is where it would be getting its power. And irrigation controllers are typically hardwired into the home in some way, but they've also got battery backup. Um, and so those could be located really anywhere on a property. I I have been running um an irrigation evaluation program here in Utah for 20 years at this point, and I've seen irrigation controllers in some very weird places. But uh, you know, typically a garage is the most com common place that you might find one. So yeah. But it's not like people are gonna have to run around their yard and swap out batteries and uh in their sprinkler heads. No, no, no, no. No, and then too, you know, I'll give a little shout out to the state of Utah. So for several years now, they've been providing rebates to any citizen in the state who wants to purchase one of these controllers. You can get a rebate, which essentially covers the cost. And I don't know of any other state that's doing that right now, but it's I think it's a phenomenal program. And it's the state kind of putting their money where their mouth is on some of these things, which I appreciate. Yeah. And I was trying to underscore too, Kelly, that like it's it's not that hard to utilize this technology that saves so much water. It's not really that much of a pain to operate or to install. No, no, it's not. I will say though, that one challenge I think some folks have, depending on what kind of life experience they've had, they do need to be programmed correctly and well to operate as efficiently as possible. And sometimes that can be a little bit trickier depending on the controller. So, you know, you mentioned the Quell program. One thing we're looking at is also just certifying these folks in programming those controllers. So that might be another service they can add to their uh list of services is hey, we can help you program your smart controller as best as possible so that you're saving as much water as possible. Right. And I think another shout out to uh the irrigation association. Um they're also a helpful resource for people as well, right? Absolutely, absolutely. So that is a nonprofit, but it's comprised of irrigation professionals across the spectrum. But they provide so many fantastic trainings, for example. Um you can get official certifications through the irrigation association, plus they're just great industry advocates. And it's a great place to find out, you know, they've got a huge show every winter, and it's a great place to find out about these new technologies that are coming along. Um but yeah, they're a fantastic resource. I in fact, in fact, when I was putting my course together, it was largely built on the back of some of their training programs, right? Because to me, that's that's the gold standard out there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's a good group too. So let's talk about this new study that you have out now. Um, tell us a little bit about uh what it covers, but also uh when did your research first start on this? So you're talking about the carbon sequestration in in turf grass systems? Yes. Yeah. Sorry. Okay. So I started doing research in this area in 2022, 2022. Um, I got some funding to install a long-term research project here in Logan, Utah, where my uh research farm is. And that study, the carbon part of it is just one part of it. It's it's really a life cycle analysis study of different types of landscapes. So looking at everything from cradle to grave, so to speak. So purchasing the material, transporting the material to the site, planting the material, what does it all cost? How much gas did it take to get there? Um, you know, as comprehensive as we can possibly be. Of course, with an eye on water, right? I mean, that's the first thought that comes to mind. But, you know, something I've I've um observed over time in my role is as we've tried to address our water challenges, there's been a lot of emphasis on landscape transformation, there's been a lot of emphasis on turf grass removal, but I've also seen some really harshly negative consequences as a result of some of those programs. And so that kind of got me thinking about what is it that we get from landscapes in our environment? Because it's not just a pretty thing to look at, not at all. In fact, I think about landscapes as ecosystems that provide a lot of functionality to us, and not just that they look good, but and not just that they're producing oxygen, but they are helping to cool our urban environments, which is an increasing issue. Um, they are helping to reduce stormwater flow by keeping water on site and allowing that water to soak into the landscape. Um, so many other benefits that we get. And so my thinking, my very simple thought was we don't I don't think we should be ripping plants out. I think what we need are more plants, not less plants. Now, those plants can be any number of different things, but uh the trend that I saw moving toward rock mulch and heat and runoff, frankly, and soil erosion, that was not where I thought we should be heading. That is a way to lose a lot of benefits that we get from the landscapes around us. And so this research was about quantifying those benefits that we get from different types of landscapes. So in this project that I'm telling you about, some of the landscapes have turf grass, some of them don't. Some of them have different types of turf grass. And so we're really trying to quantify those benefits, and we've got a model that actually does quantify those benefits so that someone can make a comparison. Like if I make these choices about a landscape, over the next 30 years, it's gonna take this much water, it's gonna cost me this many dollars, it's gonna sequester this much carbon, et cetera, et cetera. If I make this other choice, all those things will be different. And so if I can make that comparison looking at all the various aspects, I make a better choice. So it's very much about helping folks make the best choice they can for their own personal, uh their own personal desires, but also for the environment, right? So that's what the project is really about, is helping folks make those decisions. And of course, water is huge, but cooling is also huge. And so is carbon sequestration and a lot of other things. So it's it's I wish it were really simple. And I wish at the end of our model it said this one gets an A plus. It doesn't it doesn't work like that. It's it's much more um it's useful information to make your individual decision, but there's nothing about it to say that this one is absolutely the best or this one is absolutely the worst. It's it's so situationally dependent, right? But it does give information that I think helps make, helps folks make those decisions. Yeah. So it's gonna be 10 years at least with this project. Okay. And I think I think uh uh habitat for wildlife would be another benefit uh too because we have pollinators. Pave more. You're getting to the urban heat island effect, right? You so you pave more, the temperature goes up, but now you've got some vegetation to help try and mitigate some of that. Yes. But as you pave more, you also lose habitat for wildlife. So in this report, um uh are you looking at both residential and commercial landscapes? So yeah, so the report, it's it's it's really summarizing the existing body of research that we have about turf grass carbon sequestration. Okay. And we do have a sort of healthy amount of research on it so far, but I'm conducting more because I think it's going to you know, more information is going to make those choices better. It's gonna make the information more accurate. And so I in this report, what I did was summarize sort of the existing research, but it's some it's a huge part of what I'm doing now with this project. I mean, that's why it's 10 years long. In order to get carbon information from plots like this, it has to be a very long-term study. And I'm just really, really fortunate that I have got space to do that. Nobody's going to be kicking me out of that area anytime soon. Because typically those types of research projects only go on for two years, which is great for certain kinds of information, but it's not great for carbon. And it's also, by the way, not great for the atmospheric cooling aspect of the study, because I've got trees on my plots, which are not very big right now. But they're gonna be getting bigger, right? And providing shade. So things are gonna change. So that'll be the other really interesting thing to look at how things change as these landscapes mature. And as those trees get bigger, they are able to absorb more carbon. Yes. I know they do hit a peak um at a certain age, but they will absorb more carbon 10 years from now than they will now. And so that's a part of your study. Right, right. You know, and and you talk about the length of research projects. We I had uh Dr. James White on here, um, who he's down now at a uh University of North Carolina, and we talked about you know research funding, a lot of it evaporating, a lot of it going away. Um so the fact that you got a 10-year uh research project is phenomenal and and probably uh somewhat rare these days now. Yes, but uh to be clear, yeah, the but the majority of funding that I got I used in the front end of this thing that I got because I had to buy all the material and get it installed, irrigation controllers, et cetera, et cetera. Um but the nice thing about it is that I can continue this work at a pretty low cost for the next 10 years. The the biggest investment was certainly on the front end. Um and I'm very fortunate in my position here at USU. We have um a certain amount of ongoing funding from our state legislature that I can use to do not it's not a huge amount of money, but I can use that to keep a study like this going uh once I've gotten past that initial investment. But yes, I mean your point is well taken. The funding landscape is very different than what it used to be. Um and things have been to say uncertain is putting it quite mildly. Uh we just are trying to see what happens. I mean, higher ed is changing quite a bit across the country. Um, but I think you know, we're all still trying to do the right thing and and produce useful information for the public. So uh that's certainly our goal, too. Yeah, yeah. And I uh in regards to the study, I want to get into a nuanced question with you. Um you talked about a lot of cost being up front. Um in landscapes, you typically do a lot of establishment work, right? You're establishing the roots, you're establishing those plants. And then after that, if they're native to the area, how much irrigation is needed after that? It totally depends on the plant material. And the other thing, I mean, I mentioned the drought. We are seeing a year like we've never seen. So we didn't, it's people are jokingly calling it the winter that wasn't because we got we had almost no snow. We got incredibly warm. March was incredibly warm. So we had what little snow we did have kind of melted and ran off early or was absorbed into the soil. Um, and so yes, we might typically look at establishment levels of watering and then what we might call maintenance levels of watering subsequent to that. But all bets are off this year, for sure. I mean, things are just so weird and crazy. So we had a very warm March, but then we've had a little bit of snow in April. We had a hard freeze that killed a lot of the fruit orchards in the state. Oh boy. Um, it's just really different. And it's hard to say how that's going to affect things longer term. But what I can tell folks, and what I am telling them, is that turf grasses are a great place to reduce your outdoor water use. They're incredibly resilient and tough. They will come back. I'm not worried about that. I'm worried about the trees, I'm worried about perennials, I'm worried about the stuff that's that's more expensive, more valuable, and um takes longer to establish. So we're really focusing on those plant materials. We are already having irrigation restrictions, and the irrigation season hasn't started. So it's it's gonna be a wild ride this summer for sure. Yeah, yeah. I I'd love to hear your opinion on the following term: non-functional turf grass. All right. Here's my opinion. There's no such thing. There's no such thing. Okay, because for for our our listeners or or watchers who uh who may not be familiar, there have been some legislation passed in various states or counties or cities that are basically saying you can no longer have non-functional turf grass, um, and that should be replaced with something else. So uh let's talk a little bit uh about okay, what are they defining as non-functional turf grass? And then Kelly, why do you disagree with that assessment? Because because I think it's important in the in the overall dialogue to to understand not just what it is, but maybe why are we going in the wrong direction when it comes to non-functional turf grass uh uh bands or uh modifications? Yeah, yeah. Well, Mike, I have a few things to say on this topic. Um so in the water world, non-functional turf, they would tell you that it is turf that never gets any traffic except perhaps for when it's mowed. Okay. No play, no pets, no picnics, nothing like that, right? So that's how that's the broad definition of nonfunctional turf. The reason I say all turf is functional is because all turf grass produces oxygen, it prevents stormwater runoff, it stabilizes the soil, it sequesters carbon. I mean, in the water world, a frustration of mine is that when conversation turns to turf grass, it's like this thing that came from space, that it's not even a plant, that it's this this I don't know what, this evil alien thing, I'm not sure. But it's not, right? It it performs all of those functions. Urban cooling, I mean, it is a huge component of cooling our urban environment. So this idea that there is non-functional turf to me is just sort of ludicrous. Um, having said that, the reason that the water world latched onto that as an approach to water conservation is that it's simple. That is it. It is a simple thing to be able to tell people, oh, just rip this stuff out and you'll be good. But the problem is it is not that simple. And there are plenty of places in this state, in this country, I should say, uh California among them. Um I've had colleagues in Texas tell me the same thing where turf removal programs have not resulted in significant water savings. And worse than that, in Las Vegas, I have witnessed the death of their urban forest canopy because of turf removal programs that are ill-considered, poorly done, and not taking into consideration the damage that will occur to the trees that are growing over that turf. So just a lot of really negative unintended consequences. And the other thing I will say about it is this I am 1,000% about reducing outdoor water use. I direct a Center for Water Efficient Landscaping here at Utah State. I've been working on this for 25 years. It is important to me. So I don't want anybody to mistake that. However, we have programs that have demonstrated actual water savings that don't require ripping out turf and result in more water savings than some of those programs that have been in place for decades at this point. So, you know, it's just obviously I probably am on my soapbox here, but it's a little bit of frustration on my part. It's like, white, we didn't have to go from zero to rip it out. What we needed to go was zero to step one, which is irrigate what you have correctly. It shouldn't that be step one? Right. And that's I think I think that probably is where some of this is rooted is I think about a median, okay? Yes, you know, uh a grassy strip of land that has a curb all around it. Um, people drive past it on either side, but yet it gets watered. But what what do we usually see, right? To to your point about irrigation design. Usually it's the pavement's all wet. Oh, yeah. And the grass got wet too, but you're you're watering the pavement. And the joke I make to my children all the time is I'm just waiting for that pavement to grow and it's not growing yet. I don't know what's happening here. Um I think that may be where some of the uh some of the the negativity is coming from is that water waste when it comes to irrigation, but doesn't that boil down to poor irrigation design? Yes, yes, it does, Mike. Okay, so that's that's the thing. It's like, okay, is the is it the turf grass's fault that somebody planted it in a street median like that? No, no. So my argument would to that would be that was a poor plant choice from the get-go. Something like that should never have been in turf grass, and neither should narrow park strips or hard to irrigate areas. That is not where it should be used. But that's a different question, right? That's a that's a different choice. And yes, I agree with you, a lot of that has to do with how the irrigation is set up. So, you know, I'm but but because of that kind of poor design and poor plant choice situation, yes, I think people could rightfully say that it's been used poorly, inefficiently, ineffectively, inappropriately. I get that. However, again, it's not the turf grass that made the choice to be planted there, right? And it's also not the turf grass that designed the irrigation system that's spraying all over the street. So, you know, we just need to think about what exactly is happening here, and really it all boils down to human choices and decisions, and we can make better ones, no question. But ripping all of the turf out at the expense of our quality of environment and life is not the correct choice, in my opinion. Yeah. Oh, unless the turf grass truly is an alien that has landed there, and then Indeed, then let's get rid of it. No, I'm just kidding. Just kidding. Well, you know, this all kind of to me it this all kind of funnels towards something that we should see this year. I don't know if it will happen before the end of the year or not, and that is the looming Colorado River Compact conclusion uh of those negotiations. And so uh if if people thought that Kelly was on our soapbox now, just wait because stay tuned. Here comes another one, and that is going to be not just the the the Colorado River Compact negotiations, but how the the western third of the United States is going to have to adjust to how we build, operate, farm, live, um, and and and and and then we can even talk about data centers after that. But oh boy, but but I mean it when you're talking about a uh a region of the country that is going to have to somehow reduce their usage. Yeah. We don't know what yet how that's gonna shake out, but we pretty much know that every state's gonna have to reduce their usage somehow, somehow, in order to meet the obligations of the Colorado River. Yes. We look we're we're gonna be looking everywhere, right? We're gonna be looking at irrigation, we're gonna be looking at water reuse, we're gonna be looking at all sectors of uh I'll I'll say I'll jokingly say zoning, um, but I mean everything from residential to commercial to to agriculture to industrial. Um, so I mean what do you foresee coming down the road as how we tackle this enormous challenge that is not just a Utah problem, it's it's a whole you know region's problem. Yeah. Well, I will say that I do think we have a role to play with landscape irrigation, no question. In the state of Utah, um 10 to 11 percent of our state's water use goes toward municipal the municipal and industrial sectors. So you might equate that roughly to what's happening with outdoor irrigation, at least in part. Um, and so I do think we have a role to play, absolutely. But we've already on this podcast talked about two or three different technologies that could help us reduce outdoor water use by about 50 percent. So 50% is a lot more than the not really anything that's happening in California, right? So we have a role to play and we should play it. And and you know, our center is very much about helping Utah's do that. And also, we've got a huge effort to reduce agricultural water use in this state. And so I guess my point is just that it's all hands on deck, no question, with the Colorado River issues. And we all must reduce our water use. And I put myself squarely in that camp as well. I've been replacing toilets, I've transitioned, uh I took all the turf out of my front yard, by the way. Shocking. Yes, I did. Yes, I did. And I transitioned the turf I still have in my backyard to low water use turf because I am absolutely going to do the best I can to help this state and this region save water. We all need to be doing that, but we need to be doing it in ways that actually work. I I it's kind of mean, but I'll put it this way: do you want to actually save water or do you just want to say that you're trying to save water? Because I actually want to save water. And so I am about programs that help people do that for sure. And so how does that? I mean, how do you feel then when you when you read articles like I read the other day about, you know, oh, we're gonna put a data center in Utah? It's gonna be enormous, and somehow it's going to utilize double almost double the amount of power that this entire state produces currently. And as you and I both know, energy and water are connected. So you're gonna you know increase this power production, which means there's a water component to that. I mean, how how does that even how does the logic even work there? That's an excellent question, Mike. Um, I think a lot of folks in Utah are asking that question right now. Um, maybe for folks on the podcast that aren't aware, there is the largest data center in the country being proposed for a location in northern Utah, which is very close to the Great Salt Lake. And for also for folks who may not know, the Great Salt Lake is really in peril right now because of excessive withdrawals as well as climate change that is warming us up. There's more evaporation, there's there's less precipitation. I mean, there's just sort of this perfect storm of problems happening for that lake. And this particular data center, and it's not the only one, by the way, being proposed in the state, but this particular one, as you say, massive, massive, massive, massive. Um, it seems to be being pushed through very quickly, which for me is automatically suspect. I think why why the huge rush? I mean, can we at least take a few months and figure out what the impacts are going to be, both in terms of energy and water when it's right now? Oh, and I didn't even mention the fact that they're going to locate it in one of the most important ecological systems in the country in terms of migratory birds. Oh, yeah. So they're they're talking about this massive facility which will be lit up like nobody's business, right? And if you know anything about birds, that light pollution is a real problem. So there's just so many things that um people just want more information. People want more information about what's what are the real resource costs of something like that going to be. And not just that one, but all the other ones that are being proposed in the state as well. But Utah is very much what did you say? The governor said, oh, we're open for business, right? That's what he likes to say. And it's true. I mean, we are an incredibly fast-growing state, good quality of life, lots of people moving here, but our resources are increasingly limited, especially our water resources. And so, you know, that all ties back to the Colorado River. It makes me wonder why we're thinking about data centers here at all, or not just data centers, but other really large industrial uses as well. You know, there was uh, for example, I heard about a diaper plant that wanted to move into a city that is further south in the state. But the amount of water, it ended up not happening because the amount of water it was going to take to make diapers, I had no idea. But apparently it takes a lot of water to make a diaper. So, you know, we we have to think about that, right? And and hopefully the folks who are negotiating on the Colorado River stuff right now are thinking about those things. Because there are other parts of the country where it would seem to make more sense to locate larger water users or data centers. So we shall see what happens with those negotiations. Um, I know that you know it's quite contentious between the upper basin states, Utah is one, and the lower basin states, California is one. I like fruits and vegetables, however. So I want California to have some water so they can keep growing. I mean, that's where we get a lot of those things in this country. And I'm not sure how much folks understand that, how interconnected we all are in terms of how we use that water and the and the uh products we get from it. Yeah. And I'm glad you brought up the the state of the Great Salt Lake because I think people who pay somewhat attention to water in the West, they hear about Lake Meade, they hear about Lake Powell, they don't necessarily hear about Great Salt Lake as much. Right, right. And it is a terminal lake. So you mentioned reuse. In northern Utah, which is where the the Great Salt Lake watershed is, we don't talk about shh, we don't talk about reuse because we want we want that water to move through and get to the lake. So there are other parts of the state where reuse does make sense and they are installing reuse. But here in the northern part of Utah, not so much because we want all of that to as much as possible to go to the lake. Um I am quite concerned about the health of that lake. It is, you know, I mentioned the ecological importance of the lake. Um I really can't overstate that in terms of the the not only migratory birds, but other wildlife as well. And it's just it's at its lowest point in many years. And I think that at the end of this summer, it might be at its lowest point in history, at least since we've been measuring the depth of the lake. Um, and so it's it is of great concern. It is of great concern. And it is hugely important to this part of the state. And by the way, 95% of our population lives right along the shore of that lake. So really yes. So we have got a lot of work to do there. Yeah. Oh my gosh. And you would think with people living that close to it, that they would have a deeper connection to it and want to see it uh preserved or or uh not not go away or not be hurt. You know, you would think there would be that kind of emotional connection. Well, there is. There is, but there's also this incredibly fast growing population and this incredibly, incredibly desperate need for housing for that population. And so there's all this development going on, right? And all of those homes, they're gonna have people living in them who want to probably flush their toilets, I'm guessing, and drink water, not to mention what they might use outdoors. So it's just all of these threads sort of coming together. And I feel like right now it's in a big knot, and there's a lot of folks working to untangle it. But it is a tricky, tricky problem, no question. So nobody's there promoting composting toilets and waterless urinoles right now? Not yet. Who knows, though? We could get there. We'll see how these negotiations end up. Yeah. Well, so that's the other thing in the state of Utah. I'm gonna give them another shout out. So they also will provide toilets to to citizens of Utah who want to replace high flow toilets with low flow toilets. So, you know, they're they're doing a lot of things to help, but um I do we do all have to be all hands on deck, all rowing in the same direction to get where we need to go. And sadly, the history of terminal lakes like the Great Salt Lake in the world, the history in the world is not great, but I am hoping, I've got all my fingers and toes crossed, that we will be the exception to that rule. Well, I I can I can attest to the progress that the state has made in in this regard, because when I first started interacting with um people at the state level in Utah, the year was 2018. And I remember the comment that was made by that particular person whose name I won't share. Um the comment was we're a little behind. Uh and uh, you know, there was there was some uh shame and embarrassment in that statement. And now, you know, it it feels like there's been a lot of progress, and it's only been eight years. And so yeah, sure. There's definitely there's definitely uh the state's moving in the right direction in this regard, and I'm happy to see it. Um and I think the whole state is happy by you know just common sense things like what you're talking about that don't really infringe upon your life and yet still make the place better. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So last question, Kelly. Um you got a chance to work with college students for you know 18 years, 17, 18 years. What's what's the biggest takeaway that you hope that they took from your classes? Mmm. Wow. I well, you know, what you always hope is that they become lifelong learners and stay curious about things. You know, I always tried to bring in real life examples. I tried to bring in, you know, the latest and greatest technologies, uh, guest speakers to sort of inspire their thinking about these topics. Um, and and even though it was an irrigation design class I taught, I always put it in the larger context. So why are we even thinking about this, kids? I call them kids. Why are we thinking about this, kids? I mean, this is something so that's an opportunity to educate on what's going on with the climate in this part of the country, what's going on with our water challenges, what's going on with the Great Salt Lake. Um because you know, it's super inspiring to be in the classroom with students. They're so curious, they're so excited about things. I mean, I can remember being that excited about things. These days it's it feels a little more stressful. Uh the problems seem kind of challenging, but um you know, they're they're just so creative and they just give me a lot of hope uh for solving some of the challenges that we face. And I've heard a lot of other folks say that, but it is absolutely the truth. It is absolutely the truth. They are I was just at graduation last week. It is just, you can just feel the joy, the positive energy, the excitement. Like they're just raring to go and get out there and do something fantastic. And that's in that's why I go to graduation every year. I mean, I might be feeling kind of down in the dumps, but then I go to graduation and it's like we're in good hands. We are in good hands with these kids. And I think they're more aware than maybe we have been in the past about some of the challenges that we're facing. Um, but I think they've got the motivation and skill and and wherewithal to do something about it. So yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, Kelly, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. I really appreciated the uh the time and the conversation. It was fun. Me too, Mike. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Stay tuned for more episodes of the Impact Series podcast on the Green Builder Media Network. I'm Mike Colign, and I'll see you again soon. Before you click away, make sure you're subscribed to the podcast wherever you listen. And don't miss the daily coverage on sustainability, housing, and what's next for home building at greenbuildermedia.com. Stay informed, stay ahead.