2. The First Secret Question

We talk about if, how, and what we're still writing, and the inaugural Secret Question is asked. Also, once again we don't stick the landing.

Some Margin Notes:

• Being Gordon Ramsay on Netflix
• The Hypocrite by Jo Hamya
• Linkater's Blue Moon
• Welcome to the Moon and Other Plays by John Patrick Shanley
• All the President's Men as read by Richard Poe
• Hate Radio, Milo Lau

Pre-order Corey's new book, Mothers and Other Strangers

More about Sara Zarr

More about Corey Ann Haydu

Theme music: Creative Commons Deep Friendship by Lobo Loco is licensed under CC BY-NC-SA 4.0

Transcript

Speaker 2 0:01

Hi, Sara Zarr, and I write books about teenagers and 11-year-olds. Hi, I'm Corey Ann Haydu. I write uh children's and young adult novels, and my first uh adult novel is coming out soon.

Speaker 1 0:14

And you're listening to Still Writing, and so I'm just gonna get right into it and ask Corey. Corey, are you still writing?

Speaker 2 0:22

You know, I am, but it has not been a super productive two weeks. It's a soft, a very soft, yes. Um, it has not been a particularly productive two weeks, and actually I was, you know, sort of getting in the headspace of um preparing to record with you and and looking through things uh this morning. And I was like, oh, right. Writing. And I actually it sort of inspired me to go and uh and work a little bit at least on an outline. Because you wanted to have an answer to this question that we're gonna be able to do that. I was like, oh no, what if it's episode two? And my answer is no. I'm done.

Speaker 3 1:04

And end of podcast.

Speaker 2 1:07

Um, and I'm, you know, I like can't be dishonest. So I needed to make it honest. Um, but no, mostly I have really not been. It was um school break, and then there's been a lot of like promotional stuff going on um for my next book, um, and like little events and teaching things happening and um all kinds of stuff. But right after our last podcast, I had a call with my middle grade editor about my next middle grade book, which I did write a draft of, and that draft took me a lot of false starts. Um, and turns out that draft was also a false start, I have learned. So um, you know, in some ways it was kind of like a gratifying conversation because I've had enough rounds of the whole draft being wrong in other books to sort of flow with that. I was like, okay, this draft doesn't work. I'm gonna have to like mostly start over. Um, and it didn't have that devastating, like crushing feeling this time. I was recalling um a book of mine, The Careful Undressing of Love. I got a similar um note about letter about at one point. And I just remember like that took me out for a week. And this call was very like, okay, lots of work ahead, like no big deal.

Speaker 1 2:31

Um I feel like those conversations are easier to take when you're on the cusp of a new book coming out. Like you have the excitement of your adult debut, Mothers and Other Strangers coming from Little Brown. Thank you. And it's so good, and like a lot of good things are happening. So you have that excitement like going on. I think those conversations about works in progress, if if either you know or through a conversation with your editor, you have a realization that it's gonna be a whole lot more work. Those are hard when like nothing else is going on, or like you're depending on the you know, the delivery and uh payment, um, you know, the those sort of circumstances. But right now you're in a nice spot where you have an exciting thing happening and you don't have to worry about the fact that it's gonna take you more time on this middle grade right now.

Speaker 2 3:26

Yes. And like really, I I would say the financial component is the thing that's the most like pressing. But there is something good too about like okay, well, that I have felt a little bit distanced from this project and a little unable to connect. And to at least have a conversation where I can start thinking of how I can get better connected felt more hopeful than sort of where I've been with it, which is um like what am I doing? But the thing I sat down with, um, the thing I sat down with today was trying to, I've found that if I write like a pitch, that can sort of take the place of an outline for me. Outlines are a little like formal and stifling for me. Um, but writing like a really voicey, sort of like trying to be engaging, jacket copy-ish pitch um can kind of help me figure out the beats and what's missing and um, you know, where there isn't conflict or isn't, you know, what what it is I'm missing. So I like how do you deliver that book you're promising? Yeah. Like what does that actually look like? Because I pitched sort of like um monsters in middle grade, but like what does that mean? And is that the book I'm writing? Yeah, well, I mean, exactly. I think that was sort of the call of the editor was like, I don't know that you wrote the book that you told us you you were gonna write. Um, so it it felt good this morning to like start to try to coalesce those notes and um and also we really agreed on what we liked about it. Like there was there's one plot element I really like, and she agreed with liking that. So that also felt I think if she had taken that away, I maybe would have felt the sort of free-falling terrible feeling. But we agreed at least on that one aspect.

Speaker 1 5:16

Yes, I'm familiar with that feeling. Yeah, yeah. Are are you still writing, Sarah? Similarly, I wanted to have something good to say when this question came up when we're recording, and it's been really uh fragmented, very dipping in quickly, making sure I'm looking at it, fiddling here and there.

Speaker 2 5:40

Um how long is quickly for you? Like, is that five minutes or is that 45 minutes? What is quickly?

Speaker 1 5:47

Um, like 20 to 30 minutes, which I don't like. I mean, I was telling my husband last night, I was like, what I need, I feel like there's so much work to do, but I also feel like if I had like a week of time where it was the only thing I had to do, I could get it like probably mostly done, you know. But I just can have that freedom to shift into just this is my one job right now. And that kind of freedom I think probably is impossible for a mom of young kids like you. It's possible for me. Um if I arrange the time off work, which is probably something I'm gonna need to do. Yeah. But um, but I did have a nice the other night, my husband was watching season two of The Pit, his favorite show that I hate. Oh, you hate it? I don't hate it. I can see why people like it and that it's a good, engaging show, but it's so we're having a lot of elderly medical issues in our family right now because like many Gen Xers, like all our parents are 90. Um, so I just don't like spending my leisure time watching a medical medical crisis. Uh yeah, that makes sense. I my office was an absolute mess because I've been like, I want to redo my office. And that means I really have to just take everything out and like start from zero and like throw stuff away and give stuff away and sell stuff and all that. And so last weekend I started pulling it apart. Well, more than last week, like a couple weeks ago. So it's been in chaos.

Speaker 2 7:34

Yeah.

Speaker 1 7:35

And to the point where I thought I could just, well, as long as I clear a space on my desk and don't look behind me, I'll be able to be able to focus. But it was really getting to me. And I I'm one of those people, like the environment makes such a not just for writing, but just like my baseline happiness in life. Totally. Um so over the weekend I did spend a bunch of time cleaning out a lot of old paperwork and like old book contracts. And it's weird to like read book contracts from I think we talked in the last episode about realizing you may have professionally peaked, but you know, maybe not. Not you. I mean the universal you. I mean me. And looking at old book contracts and going, like, wow, I used to get paid, you know, a living. Um, and just thinking about those books and those relationships with editors and editors that aren't there anymore, and publishers I don't work with anymore. Um, and like boxes of letters from readers, and uh, I just don't know. The the truth is, it sounds really glamorous. The truth is, and uh and you know this as someone who writes in the children's literature world, so many of those letters are school assignments.

Speaker 2 8:54

Yeah.

Speaker 1 8:55

It's not a heartfelt I finished the book and I just had to figure out how to write you. It was like you have to write an author.

Speaker 2 9:03

And so you can feel that energy.

Speaker 1 9:05

Yeah, because they're just restating like the alleged themes of your book back to you. Like, okay. So those things can be let go of. Um but anyway, so while my husband was watching the pit, I didn't want to sit in my office and feel so separate from quote unquote the family, which in my case is me and my husband and our cat. And the cat does like us to all be in the same room. So I kind of set myself up in the armchair with like a lap desk and my headphones, and finally like got an immersive time working on a scene. And we touched on this last time about looking for a little moment that you know you're gonna be writing for the book and feeling excited about it. So this was a good one. It was a kind of important scene where, without giving too much away, a character visits someone who's incarcerated and there's a difficult conversation, and that's my favorite thing. Oh, that's like a juicy scene. Yeah, getting characters in a space and making them talk and figuring out like what aren't they saying and how are they not saying it? Is my favorite totally me too. Yeah, I'm still writing, but it's it feels so fragmented.

Speaker 2 10:19

Yeah, I I hear that. It's funny you're talking about the scene you were writing, um, because a lot of this last couple of weeks has been me working on like student work. One of the big notes I've been giving recently is about like really spending time in those awkward moments. I'm like, oh, that's exactly I wish I had that scene right now to show them because I'm sure that's sort of what what you're doing there is like spend the that awkwardness, like the not just like a big fight scene or a big um like romantic scene or a big uh you know, climax scene, but like oh the juiciness of like I don't know what to say and how to get that across on the page. I also I love writing that kind of like use everything has to be like way slowed down and those like two minutes take three pages kind of thing.

Speaker 1 11:12

Um finding the fun in that do not not to be prescriptive, but uh in my teaching days, this was a conversation a lot with students too, of just kind of it's it's so easy and natural, and of course we do this to just like uh direct the scene, just ask, reach for the thing, like directing what I want them to say. This is how this would be like the most satisfying thing for them for them to say, but then stepping back and going, is that in in realism and working with humans, like is that really how they would communicate? You know, yeah not letting your characters uh always answer uh the direct questions another character proposes to them. They're dodging, they're pivoting, they're rewinding back to an old grievance. You know, there's just so many harder ways to do dialogue where the first draft, sure, you're just like getting it out. But for me, when I'm reading if I'm to believe these people are human, yeah, it really has to be so much of people not being on the same page because mostly we're not on the same page with other people, or people aren't saying exactly what we wish they would, or what's gonna be like the smoothest, or even what a reader wishes would happen. And I feel this is kind of why one reason that romance is so popular is um those stories to me, when I read them, they're very directed and boom, boom, boom, they're satisfying banter. Uh if there's a miscommunication, that's just because that's the beat in the romance where we want them to like briefly break apart before they come back together. And I'm not like saying any of that is bad, but I think that's what makes certain genre fiction very appealing. That's why I loved in the 90s, I loved these paperback crime novels by Faye Kellerman, where she was always working with this PI and they were investigating all these crimes, and you know, those things follow a kind of formula, but yeah, anyway. Um yes, I'm still writing, and there are moments when I enjoy it, but like what you were saying, uh with this particular book, I'm currently don't feel very connected to it. Oh, interesting. And I do feel that comes and goes in a project. There's the initial excitement that gets you motivates you to put it together enough to like present it to your editor and like try and sell it. Yeah, and then that like can fade as you get busy or it gets difficult, but it also can come back. So I just that's the thing, it's like a relationship. I need to spend time, I need to invest in this relationship with my book, and I just haven't had the time to do that. Take it out on a date. Yeah.

Speaker 2 14:16

When were you most excited about it when you first got going with it?

Speaker 1 14:19

When it first got the idea, yeah, uh, which was a long time ago. That's the thing. There's sometimes a long stretch of time between when the idea first catches you and when everything coalesces for it to be okay, like this is my front burner thing that I'm doing. Yes. And then you're like, oh, oh yeah, this book.

Speaker 2 14:41

Well, and in the intervening time, sometimes the thing that's interesting to you about it, like you're not that interested anymore. So you have to find another point of entry. That's what's happened to me with this monster book. Like, I originally had a proposal for it back in like 2020, 2021 that was so different than what I even proposed, you know, a year ago. And even and now again, I'm like interested in a different sort of angle on it. So yeah, as I change, sort of what I'm interested in changes, which can get tricky.

Speaker 1 15:14

It really is like a marriage. Okay, the thing that first drew me to this person is now really fucking annoying. So I gotta find somebody else that I love. Oh no, it's so real. I say that as someone married um 35 years because I was a baby. But yeah. Um, yes, there's adult language in this podcast. Hey, Corey, are you ready for the secret question? Our very first secret question. I am.

Speaker 2 15:43

I'm I I'm so excited. I don't even know like what universe it's in. I'm very excited about it. I know.

Speaker 1 15:48

Well, I just kind of like had the idea of a question I wanted to ask. And then that night I texted you, I was like, what if we had like a secret question that we took turns asking a secret question that the other person doesn't know about? You're like, sure, okay. So we'll see how this goes. Okay, great. I bring it on. Because I've been thinking about this a lot. Okay, so in just thinking very broadly, um from the beginnings of your writing and then any point in between now and back then, whose approval do you think you are or were most writing for? And how is that changed if it has changed? I know it's a good one. Oh man. And if you want, I can answer it first since I've had like three weeks to think about it.

Speaker 2 16:38

Um, no, I I feel like secret question I need to be able to try to try to answer on the fly somewhat. Um I think at first, I definitely def yes, this is definitely true. I know for my first novel, I was really seeking approval from like the industry professionals. So my agent, and then once I had an editor, my editor, like I really that relationship was so like me wanting to impress them. Um, and teachers too, when I was in grad school. Like, tell me how good I am. Um, you know, let me try to prove to you that I'm a writer. Uh, and sort of that type of approval and doing it right and doing it the way they envisioned, and um, getting really panicked when I got a sense that I hadn't done it the way they had envisioned. Um, I really remember, I get like sense memory uh feelings around um like my first editorial letter for OCD Love Story from my editor, who's now an author herself, Anika Reese, who's amazing at host. Yeah. She's incredible. Incredible.

Speaker 1 17:55

Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 17:56

Yeah. Shout out to Anika. Uh, Anika's the best. Um, an incredible editor and a and an incredible author too. Um but I remember that first editorial letter, and she was not messing around. Like it was She's formidable.

Speaker 1 18:14

Um to the writer circle, like read like a writer book club.

unknown 18:19

Yeah.

Speaker 1 18:19

And I'm all happy, like, I liked this part and I thought this was good, and she just has this look on her face. Like, let's backtrack and rethink this.

Speaker 2 18:29

She's like a genius, like she's just understands story in this really deep way that, like, yeah, is intimidating a little bit. Um, and yeah, I have a memory of being in a cafe reading that letter and just like feeling like my job was to please her. And I almost feel like nostalgic for that. That seems so much simpler a little bit. I'm like, oh, I had one per. I was like, I just have to make Anika happy. Which to an extent is true. I mean, there's their that's their job.

Speaker 1 19:01

They're representing, they're thinking like all the future readers, and that's all coalescing to them and their sort of like the conduit through which everything else is gonna happen. So it's not true.

Speaker 2 19:18

No, there's definitely like that. Is ultimately who has to say yes or no to whether that draft is moving, moving forward. And then I think in like Twitter heyday, I was writing to try to please um the Twitter verse. The cool, the cool Twitter people. The cool Twitter people. Um I would say that's not a great way to write. Um that was terrible. I don't know. I mean, I think it's a little too pat to say, like, no, I'm just writing to please myself. Um, I don't think I'm like quite at that at that evolved place. So I'm not sure I know who I'm writing to sort of please at this point. I can say I know that that editorial relationship has gotten more collaborative feeling for me. Um, there's obviously still sort of a power dynamic at play, but I enter those letters and those conversations more as a conversation than like a person telling me what I have to do. And I and that's been really um really good for me to like try to inhabit that uh that more certain place or that more like we're two people talking about the work kind of kind of place.

Speaker 1 20:32

And I would say that is that is what editors also want.

Speaker 2 20:36

They don't want you to just definitely yes, ma'aming them, you know. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. So yeah, I'm not sure where I've landed now. I'm like, who am I who am I writing for now? I'm writing for that like moment when you feel like you got it. And I don't know that that's like a that's not a person or your own approval.

Speaker 1 20:56

I mean, yeah my my thought about this question is like centered on the word approval more than like the pleasing uh uh of an audience or like a satisfaction for yourself, but like the external forces that pushed you to be good enough in the first place for you know, and I'm not saying that's healthy. Yeah, you'll hear more when I answer.

Speaker 2 21:24

Yeah, I need to hear your answer, and then I think I'm gonna have more to say when I will understand your framework.

Speaker 1 21:29

I think you will. Um, because I think about your background as an actor, and I think about me being in drama when I was I mean, going back to like fourth grade, but a lot in high school, and then community theater. Yeah. And um I think it starts with a desire to be a performer, and there's always something in the desire to be a performer that's looking for like the applause or or just even. I think the attention, you know, just yeah. Um, so when I think about different phases of my writing, I there's a lot, there's a lot to it. You you know my family background and kind of my relationship with my late father. Um, and so he was I come from this family of people who were very smart and very talented, but could not necessarily accomplish the thing they wanted to accomplish because they were thwarted by their addictions, yes, um, and mental health issues. And um so I did have a feeling all growing up from doing any kind of performing that I was was or should be or wanted to be noticed as special in some way. I don't know, you're catching on. Okay. Um so it's just interesting. It's hard for me to remember that far back, but I do know once I initially just wanted to be able to say, like, like so many writers, like I am gonna have a book published by a New York publisher with my name on it and do like the whole thing. And just feeling like, okay, if I just do that once, like that's great, that's a huge accomplishment. I'll be happy. And then once I got into it, I think there were there were different phases of it. But I will say, I what made me think of this was an interaction with like a former mentor type person. And I was thinking how wow, I used to really, really desire this person's approval and that person and the people like them. So for me, that world was like intellectual, uh like intellectual older men. Um interesting, yeah. Because uh of my father issues. I mean, it's a pretty straight line, but it particularly just in this world of like the arts and faith um kind of world of everything needs to be transcendent, and like we're really thinking about the transcendent human experience and like everything is deep and everything is meaningful and everything connects to something bigger, and I still like there's still that part of me that really thinks that and wants to achieve that in my writing. But there was this time where if I had a choice of being in a room with a bunch of writers like me, other women, whatever, just talking about writing and TV and whatever, or if I could be in the room with the older intellectual men and their cigars and their whiskey, like I'm trying to get into that room and showing that like I can be in this room, like I can be in this room and not be stupid. Yeah. Um so it and but it involves so much faking, like so much faking that I knew who they were talking about, what they were talking about, the book they were talking about, the idea they were talking about, and finding myself like it kind of worked just getting slotted in there. And I did gain the respect of some people in that world, but it always stressed me out because I always felt like they're gonna figure out I don't actually have these deep thoughts, but I know how to sound like I have these deep thoughts, but that's also not fair to me because I do have those deep thoughts. I just it's just that um okay, so that was one phase of it. Yep. Another phase is yeah, wanting the approval of the editor. And I and I sort of had that with my first editor, and then that kind of broke because I realized I'm gaining confidence, I'm doing good work, better work, um, out of the gate, you know, gaining sort of a sense of what I wanted to do with my writing and my own voice. Um this is nothing on my first editor or anything. I mean, she learned so much. It was amazing, and she was incredibly supportive and like a huge advocate for me in the publishing house, which makes a huge difference in your career. So all that. Good, good, good. But then they're just as I got older and more experienced, every relationship that was more oriented around me avoiding disapproval in the writing realm, and that could be from my editor, from these intellectuals, from people on Twitter. I just started to more and more not care about that. And as you know, I also did a 12-step program for adult children of alcoholics and sort of worked on my codependency a lot, and then that need for approval and all these father figures gradually just faded. Um and so now I really am just, I don't think when I think about is there someone out there who could say like a certain thing to me that would make me feel more validated? I don't think so, which feels great and freeing, but it also feels like I have less drive because of that. Because that was such a burning, motivating force of like, I gotta like be accepted, get this approval, get validated. And now a part of it I'm sure is age. I mean, I'm 55 now, so it's like I can validate myself and if I'm happy with what I'm doing, great. But it does sort of the flames of the flames of drive to like prove myself to whoever are more embers.

Speaker 2 27:54

I wonder now I want to read like a whole paper on the relationship between codependence and ambition. Like if there's something really deeply like going on there that like we sort of, you know, what are you gonna do? You don't want to like stay codependent just so you can stay really ambitious. Um, but I like I you're saying that. I'm like, God, I wonder if on for a lot of us those things are really inextricably linked. I wonder if like how you get them unlinked, like if there's it, I don't know. I think there like is maybe something more there. And that also, you know, I imagine gender might play a role in some of that um as well. That's very interesting though. Um yeah, that as you seek the approval less, that the drive, the drive also becomes less.

Speaker 1 28:50

The drive is more, I mean, I do, I do still want like my editors. I rely on my editor to tell me, like, yeah, this is working or like this is done or this is ready. Um, but that doesn't feel so much like I need to validate my whole identity as a human being through that, which is definitely how it felt before. We talked last time about kind of the trajectory of having success, starting, having success, the market changing, work changing, whatever. Um, and I, oh, if there's if anyone hears that in the background, that's the cat feeder, which has a recording of my husband's voice telling the cat to come and get it. Really sad I didn't hear that. I don't know why. Um that I think I did go through a time when I felt that I wasn't like as new and interesting as I had been for my first few books. When I felt that starting to like go down, yeah, I did have a deep, like almost like a wrenching, something's getting wrenched out of my hands that I need to live, you know. Um but fortunately I was able to work through that. Yeah. So I can't promise every secret question is gonna be this intense, but I'm curious how after hearing my version, like if you have more thoughts about that performing side of you, the part of you that, oh, you know, I need to do something special. I can't just be like normal. I have to do something special. And why do we think uh a writing or acting does actually make us more special?

Speaker 2 30:28

Yeah. It's really funny. As you were talking, I made some notes as you were talking because I'm always interested with you and I, like these places where we really intensely meet up. And then like we often have like a very intense point of sameness that then gets like slightly interpreted and diff in its own different little way. Um, so the specialness I relate to like so like so deeply because I was like blushing as you're talking about. I'm like, don't look at me. I know, I just want to be special. Um but I, you know, where you have this like really clear vision of who it is that can give you that approval. Mine is so broad. It's like, no, I just need like the world to everybody the essence of that. It's so, yeah, I don't, it's not stuck to a particular um like caricature or type or um like representative. It's so broad that it I'm actually like, ooh, that that's not good. Like it's it's it's um it's so ungettable because there's and not that it's great to have pinned it all on men either, but that like I don't even have like a person who can give it to me. It's like I just need the to know that the universe can feel it.

Speaker 1 31:48

And that's so throughout all time and space.

Speaker 2 31:53

That's all kind of well.

Speaker 1 31:56

The thing is, I mean, even if you can pin it to like a person or a group of people, it doesn't work.

Speaker 2 32:01

Um, it's still like a a a boulder you're pushing up the hill forever. It's not a and especially if it's not authentic.

Speaker 1 32:09

Like if I'm if I'm becoming a different version of myself to get that approval, yeah, then I'm never at peace. And so that was the issue. That was definitely a big issue for me. I realized only after doing all this codependency recovery, like, oh, I would look back at my emails and go, oh, when I email this person, I'm talking like them. When I email that person, I'm talking like them. Yeah. Um, just always trying to mirror because you know that's what's gonna make them like you because it makes them feel good to interact with you.

Speaker 2 32:43

Yes, yes. I I think I do that in really intense ways in my personal life, and that for some reason I have like looped out my work a little bit from my dysfunction. Amazing. I don't know. I think I don't know why that is. Um, and I don't think that was true with acting, although it's like getting increasingly hard to remember. I think I was more um sucked into like a toxic dynamic with acting.

Speaker 1 33:16

That makes sense because no one really cares about books.

Speaker 2 33:22

Um yeah, and with writing, I've somehow like cordoned it off a little bit, so I'm not whereas I'm putting so much pressure to be approved of and liked in like basically every other aspect of my life. I I've gotten it, I don't know. The writing is a little bit separate from that, and maybe that's yeah, I was just thinking about all the different things you talk about. Like I where I grew up, I was, you know, I went to like a very academic New England, you know, prep school environment and was in that world and um never fit in, but sort of took pleasure in that. Like that was okay. Like it's like I was in that room and was like, oh no, I'm not supposed to be here, but in a good way. So the writing, I think for me, sometimes is like a a secret I have that like makes it okay that I don't fit in there. I I'm not sure. It's it's like, oh, it's I'm yeah.

Speaker 1 34:27

I've perceived that in you and I admire it so much because it feels like whatever else is going on in your life, you always like get the writing done, and that's like you don't have a tense relationship with the work. That's how I would like to be, and and that's why you've been so prolific and like so broad in your, you know, having your having your hands in so many things, but that sounds so negative. Like you're some like corporate overlord. But just you know, just trying a lot of things. It feels like it does feel like that part of your life is like a more sacred kind of set aside or like private, like you said, just kind of because you don't really talk about you don't talk much about like what you're working on, or I just never hear you complain about writing, which is Yeah, I don't have a tortured relationship really with it.

Speaker 2 35:21

I I think you know, and and this is true of a lot of people that end up do that do end up having a more complicated relationship with writing. So this is not the be-all and end all solution, but I grew up like really intensely journaling and really intensely um story writing from like eight on. And um there were so many parts of my uh growing up life that like were like not safe and were not like a place I felt good. And I that that was like my secret place that was mine and it was always there, and then no one could take it from me, and no one would even read it. Like it, I don't know. And I've I've just never lost that relationship with it. You know, I I hate bad reviews, like I torture myself with good reads. Like I'm not, you know, I'm not like a Zen master over here. Um, I do all the things that everyone does, but the writing part, like the me sitting down and writing, is like extremely un uncomplicated.

Speaker 36:22

It's like I love that.

Speaker 2 36:23

Yeah, it's something I get to do and I'm excited to do it. Yeah, and it's yeah, it's the only place I'm not trying to make everyone else like me.

Speaker 1 36:33

I love that and it makes me happy. Makes me happy to hear that. And I think it comes across in your work too, because it it feels very unburdened by um like you're it doesn't feel like you're trying to perform anything. And I think some writing is burdened with that. Although I'm hoping in a future episode, maybe next episode, I would love for you to tell the story of Mothers and Other Strangers, like the journey of that manuscript, because you know, I know the writing wasn't fraught for you, but the process of finding a home for it was long. Yeah, yeah. We'll talk about that another time. Yeah, that would be great. Uh, next on our outline current events. Are there any? No, nothing happening in the world. All good. Moving on, Lord. Um, oh, we talked about aging parents. Yeah. In the phase of life with aging parents. We don't really need to go into that. Only just to say if you're listening and you're around our age and you have aging parent issues, we're with you. We hear you.

unknown 37:40

Yeah.

Speaker 1 37:40

It's not easy. Now we're in margin notes, which is our cute little section about what we've been consuming. Yeah. What have you been? What have you been taking on? I have a bunch of things. Maybe I'll just highlight a couple things. I think first of all, I'll mention being Gordon Ramsay because that connects to what we were talking about earlier. Uh the codependence or dysfunction relationship to ambition. So I know like Gordon Ramsay has his fans and his haters. Yeah. I'm I'm definitely more of a fan than a hater. Okay. But I can't watch all his I can't watch Hell's Kitchen. That's the one where he's just screaming. Yeah, yeah. He's it's too, yeah, it's too stressful. Um, I did enjoy quite a few seasons of Master Chef. Okay. And my husband and I really get in these phases where we we enjoy kitchen nightmares, which is when he goes and like straightens out. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like um uh what not to wear, but for restaurants. Okay, I don't know, that part of my brain from the early 2000s is still there. Um so but he he's just to me, he's kind of a fascinating interesting enough that like when I saw there was a docuseries about just him in his life with like his kids and his wife and his home. I was like, I'm definitely watching that because I just want to know how much of this is persona, how much of this is really him. Yeah. And so I think we've watched three of the six so far. And it turns out Gordon Ramsey is the adult child of an alcoholic. Oh, interesting.

Speaker 2 39:34

Really?

Speaker 1 39:37

And he talks about that as being a big like driver of just because he he talks about his brother. So I'm not I'm not giving anything away about his family because he talks about, I feel like I'm I feel like no, that should be confidential, but he's got it on the show. Um, he talks about his brother, who I guess is like a heroin addict and has been for like four decades. Uh-huh. And so Gordon Ramsey talks about growing up together in the exact same home, sharing a room, sharing a bunk bed, and just like how why does he get to have his life and his brother has his struggles? And so part of Andy grew up poor, just the whole thing. So part of the constant achieving and like new projects and new shows and like bigger risks is that being like hounded by that feeling of like I have to make something of this, and also like the fear that it could be taken away. So I find it really interesting, and I think anyone who's a Gordon Ramsey fan or like me kind of on the fence, I think this will give you insight. I just I know it's just like more dumb celebrity content that's basically working to advertise all these new restaurants he's he's building in London. But if you like that kind of reality show, it's a good one. And it's really interesting to me to watch the relationship between him and his kids. He seems like a great dad. I mean, for someone who's gone a lot, yeah. Very he loves being a dad and he's been with his wife forever and have like six kids. So ranging in age from like 27 to like 18 months. Oh my god. Yeah, big time. Wow. Oh, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta watch that. Well, maybe. Um, and then okay, I watched Blue Moon, which is Richard Link Later uh Ethan Hawk project that was nominated for several Oscars. And actually, I hadn't read anything about this movie. I really didn't know anything about it. To the point where when I started watching it, it felt so much like a play that I was like, oh, I wonder if this was like um, you know, some Tony Award-winning play that got adapted into a film because it had that feeling of like um doubt, that one with um Patrick Shanley's doubt. Yeah. And a couple other like plays like that. It had that kind of feeling. But it's an original screenplay, and that's one of the Oscars it's nominated for. I loved it. Again, I feel like the theme today might be alcoholics. This is about um so before there was Rogers and Hammerstein, there was Rogers and Hart. So this is about Lauren's Hart, who was Richard Rogers' first songwriting partner. And it's like a night in Lawrence Hart's life when it's the opening of Oklahoma, which was the first collaboration between Rogers and Hammerstein. So it's basically the worst. Yes, this is basically like the worst night of his life.

Speaker 2 42:54

Is Heart Guys and Dolls? Did I make that?

Speaker 1 42:56

Um perhaps. Okay. I'm not gonna look it up right now. Don't. I'll look it up myself because I'm curious. I just, it's a very talky movie. It all takes place in one location, it all takes place in this bar. Um, so it's not for everyone. You have to only watch it when you're ready to like pay attention to a movie that's just talking.

Speaker 2 43:18

It's all on the same night, like all on that opening night.

Speaker 1 43:21

Yeah, okay, so I mean there's there's like a little the very beginning, there's like a little um this happens, and then it's like 11 months earlier, and then it's just that night. And apparently it's based on correspondence between Lawrence Hart and this young woman. Anyway, I don't want to talk, give the whole plot away, and I don't need to, and it's boring to hear people describe movies, but I just have to say, Ethan Hawk, who is someone I've always really liked as a person in the world, like as a celebrity, I feel like he's on the good side of things, just he talks very thoughtfully about. About work and he takes it seriously, like going back to that idea of like finding more meaning in something than might actually be there or maybe is there, but like being optimistic about there is meaning. Um, so all that, but I haven't always been blown away by him as an actor, like in his performances. But in this one, so good, it just really disappears into this role. It's funny too. It's a little, you know, it's sad, but there's also some humor to it. Andrew Scott plays Richard Rogers. Um it all just kind of takes place at this opening night party after he's been forced to realize, like, oh, Rogers and Hammerstein, this is gonna be a huge It's gonna be a thing. And I'm not sure. Yeah, so that was really good, and that's on Netflix now. Lastly, I've been listening. We, my husband and I have been listening to All the President's Men, uh, which is the book by I keep I keep saying Woodford and Bernstein, and my husband's like, that's the whiskey Woodward. I'm like, Woodward, that doesn't sound like a name anyway. Um about Watergate and everything after Watergate. And I've I've seen the movie a few times, but I'd never read the book. It's so good, but it's also again a little depressing because of how journalism that was just like the height of the power of journalism in some ways, at least for this century, you know, this last a hundred years. And we're seeing that power getting drained away in our time. Not just the journalism, but also the idea that oh, people in government generally agreed that corruption was bad and should be exposed, and then do something about it. Yeah, so it's it's troubling in that way, but it's it's a very good listen. I love good journalism. I love a good nonfiction book. And and obviously this is a classic, so we've been enjoying that on audio.

Speaker 2 46:12

And it's good on audio specifically, too.

Speaker 1 46:14

Yeah, yeah, he's good. He's not it is good. It's good on audio. I would love it if it was like Scott Brick is probably one of my favorite audio readers for nonfiction. He's the one who did the he read the whole entire 36-hour Hamilton, the Ron Charnell Hamilton biography that we listen to. Yeah. He's just one of the best. That's perfect. Um, but this guy who's reading is very good. Okay, cool.

Speaker 2 46:39

How about you? Um, those were great. Well, first, I unfortunately the way my brain works is I like hear things mentioned and then like 75 things come into my brain. So I have to make a couple of recommendations that are jumping off of those. I guess these are mostly just recommendations for you or anyone interested in the in the media you were just discussing. But um, for a read-along with Blue Moon, there's a book I loved from last year called The Hypocrite by um Joe Hamaya. Jo-O, um, not J-O-E, Joe Hamaya. Um, and it all takes place I read it like a year ago, so you know, take it with a grain of salt. But it mostly takes place on opening night of um this woman's play, and her father is in the audience, and it's it involves a lot of flashbacks. Um, it's great. Like, I I think you would love it. You I think you would absolutely love it. Um, but I think it's just like a cool, it sounds like it could be really interesting in conversation um with that movie, just because it's also about like, I don't know, that it's that's a very particular type of media, like opening night of a play. Like that's a really interesting.

Speaker 1 47:47

And I imagine if the kind of a father-daughter story, there might be that question of approval going on.

Speaker 2 47:52

Oh yeah. Big, big time. Cause he is also, is he a novelist or is he a playwright? He's also a writer. Um, and the play um is very much related to him, like it it's related to him. I don't think that gives anything away. So it's unpacking their relationship and also their artistic ambitions, and um, it's great. It's a really great read. And then I also had to bring up, just because you brought up doubt, which is by one of my favorite playwrights, John Patrick Shanley. Um, there is like a very whimsical and special um series of short plays by John Patrick Shanley called Welcome to the Moon and Other Plays. Um, and I just feel like so much of my perspective as a writer like comes from that. We did a, we got a group of us together and like put on a production of it in my 20s. Um, and I just love that collection and I I can't recommend it enough uh for anyone that's interested in what else John Patrick Shanley has done. That's just a really interesting uh work.

Speaker 1 48:53

I think reading plays is really interesting and rewarding for novelists. I think we should all be reading more plays.

Speaker 2 49:01

Yeah, I agree. I actually should really be in the, you know, obviously I read a ton of plays when I was in theater school and um less so now, and it's uh I agree, it's like really cool practice, I think. On the subject of theater, I had a rare, I mean, I live in New York and I'm a former theater major, but that I don't actually see plays this often usually, but this past week I did see two plays, which again is somewhat unusual, but um they were they couldn't have been more different. One was this play called Hate Radio that my um my husband really wanted to see, so I got it. Like I got him tickets for Valentine's Day, which is like very um representative of in general the type of romantic dates we go on, which are like harrowing, like documentary films and um really upsetting artwork. Um and this was that perfect Valentine's Day present. And it was about a Rwandan um uh radio station during during, you know, the sort of the height of the 90s um conflicts there and genocide there. And it I wouldn't say it's like enjoy it's certainly not enjoyable in like the the way the next play I'll talk about was, but it was very interesting and I think heavily based on transcripts and really just was them in a in a um you you had headphones on the whole time, and they were in like a recording booth, and it was just them like recording their sort of two-hour um radio program, like drumming up hate and sort of what it looks like to really dehumanize people on the radio and the Cory.

Speaker 1 50:37

Yeah, get enough of that. We have that every day coming straight out of the White House. I know.

Speaker 2 50:44

I came home and I was like, we'll be watching Friends now. That's where I'm at. But anyway, it was you know, it was beautiful production, which I also I will say something I always really, really, really love is theater that could only be theater and that really takes advantage of of what theater can do. And this was that in that like it was such an experience to like have these headphones and to they're in like the glass booth, and the production design was really beautiful and the performances were really impressive, and it's a full two hours with no intermission, so it's like quite and everyone on stage is on stage the whole time. Like just the um dedication and production of it was really, really amazing, even if the experience of watching it was not in any way like enjoyable.

Speaker 1 51:31

And I mean, as much as I was joking about don't we have enough of that? I mean, that is one of the points of art. Like we are remembering, we're gonna like take this experience, turn it into art so that it is not forgotten.

Speaker 2 51:45

Yeah. And I my husband, I bel I didn't fact check him on this, but I believe it was produced like a while ago, and then they've re-brought it back, um, which I also always think is interesting to like sort through the files of like what would be important to put on right now. So anyway, that was an interesting theatrical experience. Um, and then I had the complete opposite um, in some ways, theatrical experience, which is that my seven-year-old is a very precocious seven-year-old and is very got very into Hamilton after we started playing it on a long ride home from Boston.

Speaker 1 52:17

So good for road trips. It gets a couple hours. Yeah.

Speaker 2 52:21

It was great and it was immediate. It was like, you know, I just we could not take another, um, you know, mostly just parents will know the descendants and zombies, which are these like Disney properties that I mean, it just they're fun, you know, they're pop, it's upbeat at eats. It's okay. You don't have to defend it. It's okay, but oh my god, like if there's only so much you can take. And it was like, can we listen to something that I enjoy? So like maybe she could get into Hamilton because she she likes to have a lot to chew on. Like she likes to really have something to dig into. So she really took to it. Um, and so for for Christmas, my parents gave us tickets to Hamilton, and um, I got to take her. And oh my god, like it just and I've seen the play previously when it was it was the best day of her life. It was like maybe the best day of my life, just in that. I mean, I I love that show. It's not like my number one top show of all time, but like it's it's a beautiful show, it's really impressive. And like I'm such a long-term musical theater person, and she's gone to some other musical theater, but this is the first show I think that felt like hers. And to just remember what it was like to have a book or a show or a TV show, even like that was yours at that age, I was like, Oh, this belongs to me. There's something about this that like I really relate to.

Speaker 53:37

Um, I feel that way about the chorus line when I discovered that when I was like eight or nine. Yeah.

Speaker 2 53:42

Yes. It was it was rent for me and my sort of like 11, 12 year old. Which again, these are not things that like in no universe does my seven-year-old actually have anything in common with Hamilton, or do I have anything?

Speaker 1 53:55

Also, like it's not like a super obscure, we just had really obscure, refined taste. No, these were like the number one musicals of our times.

Speaker 2 54:03

But the feeling of like this belongs to me is so special.

Speaker 1 54:07

I love this in a special way.

Speaker 2 54:08

Yes. Um, I yeah, and um, she had like her special Hamilton dress, and it was great. And um what a beautiful show. I don't know. It was really fun to to get to introduce that to her and to remember what it was like to like connect so deeply to something, which I think we're just we just do less as adults. We connect in like a a more superficial way, a lot we're like maybe even afraid to like really go deep on how much we love something. Um yeah.

Speaker 1 54:38

I mean, like when I the night we watched Blue Moon, I would say 10 minutes later we watched Waiting for Government because all of Katherine O'Hara's movies are on Netflix and we've been re-watching a bunch of those. And it just like immediately, like, oh yeah, that transcendent experience of watching Blue Moon. I just like immediately moved on. Yeah, like, what else? Okay. Yeah, yeah. I don't like that.

Speaker 2 55:02

So, yeah, those are my theatrical experiences this this past week. Um, I also read a book that I don't even remember how I found this book. I, you know, I'll hear something and put it on my library holds and then just read it when it comes in. And I have no idea who recommended this, but it's a book called The Most by um Jessica Anthony. And it's very short, which like you know, great. Can't ever do it myself, but incredible. Love a short novel. And it all takes place on the day Sputnik 2 um goes into space. So I I looked that up to make sure I was situated correctly. I think that's 1957, and there is a married couple, and it's like really a marital book, and the the woman in the couple is in the pool at their apartment complex, and like that sort of it yeah, uh, for the whole novel. And that's sort of it. Uh, and you know, again, it sort of goes, it's actually not dissimilar to the hypocrite in some ways, in that it's like a very condensed time period that sort of you then get to see the other background and texture um as you stay in that one moment, which is, I guess, a construction I really like. But it was really like tightly done, and I admire short books so much.

Speaker 1 56:22

And I'm grateful for them because so grateful for them. My reading attention span these days.

Speaker 2 56:28

Oh, it's the best feeling to like really get through a book in like a very short time and to have that immersive experience without, you know, when you are short on time and attention. Um, so that was a great reading experience. And um I I guess I need to think about what my book is. That's like a one day, but you find out everything. I that seems to be something I'm very drawn to. So I'm gonna have to think on that. Um, and then the other thing I I took in this week was the Oscars shorts, which my husband and I go to every year, the the nominated um Oscars shorts. We we used to go to all of them, um, and then we had kids. So now we go to the live action only, which is sort of a compromise because he really loves the documentary shorts, which I often find just a little too dark for for my Saturday night.

Speaker 3 57:15

Yeah, they can be rough.

Speaker 2 57:16

And um, I mean, honestly, the live actions can be too. I will say that so this recommendation I feel like very easy about in that, and I had a feeling this was the case was gonna be the case. I was like, I think they're gonna be lighter this year. I think like where we are right now, they're going to have a have a lighter energy. And overall, they really did. I really loved, I really liked them all. The first one is on Netflix, so it's easy for everyone to watch if you don't have an Oscar Schwartz running in your neighborhood. Um, it's called The Singers, and uh yeah, it's on Netflix, and that it's you know, 15 minutes and it's delightful, and it's really great and interesting. And um, I I loved it. The last one I wish I could like spoil, but I can't. It's one of the funniest sort of 10 minutes I've ever seen. Um, so I Oh good. Yes. Um again, a 15 year old that this weekend. Um, I believe it's called um Jane Austen period drama. Oh yeah, I keep seeing so great.

Speaker 1 58:14

Um I'm on Letterboxd, which is like a social media for film books. Oh yeah, yeah. And I've seen that come in my feed a lot. Yes. So I didn't realize that was part of the shortcut.

Speaker 2 58:23

Very worthy. And then there was a sort of um dystopian one called Two Strangers Exchanging Saliva, which again like just great title. And that one was just like all world building, which was really cool too. Um, so just from a craft perspective, I you know, I'm always interested in the craft of any kind of story. And that one was a cool craft experience because of how interesting the world building was and how little explanation um they gave for the elements that were unlike our current world and how that was fine, that we didn't need like an in-depth explanation of the the defense of the world. Yep. So that was very cool too.

Speaker 1 59:03

Good. I'm gonna do that because our next little section is just what's what's coming up in the week ahead. And I just got a text from my husband that he's gonna go on a trip to see his aging parents sooner than he thought. So I'm gonna have like a week here uh and hope nothing comes up where I have to leave for my mom. And um, I think I will take myself to the Oscar Shorts.

Speaker 2 59:28

Oh, good. I really I'm curious to hear your thoughts and I I want to know like your favorite.

Speaker 1 59:32

Also, I would like to have a book to talk about next time in Margin Notes to prove that I do read. I think I'll finish your book because that's what I'm enjoying the most right now. And that'll be good timing. Um all right, we're we're wrapping up here.

Speaker 2 59:47

Yes. What are you uh you're gonna go to the Oscar Shorts?

Speaker 1 59:51

Go to the Oscar Shorts. I'm gonna try and do a little more work on my book. My mind's just blank. Perfect.

Speaker 2 59:55

That's I think those are two good goals.

Speaker 1 59:59

I and I think the other thing I'll probably enjoy while my husband's out of town is just like simplifying life logistics. Because even within a couple with no kids, there's still like so many logistics happening all the time. Like meals, and we're always texting the day, like, here's what I'm thinking for dinner, or I'm gonna do this after work, or I'm gonna come home at a different time than I thought. Whatever it is, just it's nice to have the logistics piece just gone and get a taste of what it would feel like to only have to think about your own schedule. Yeah. At any time. So I'm just gonna enjoy that. How about you? What's going on for you?

Speaker 2 1:00:34

Um, I have a two-day school visit next week. So I am still gonna be not writing, I guess. Um, but that should be interesting. It's sort of every grade. So it's K, Kate, all elementary school grades. So I'm doing a day of K to two and a day of um grades three to five. So I gotta get some energy up for that. And that'll be sort of the big, big event. Yeah, and I'm hoping I can nail down this little pitch that I'm that I've been working on um and get that sort of more solidly in place. Yeah. And then I have my daughter's birthday is coming up, so that's awesome. Hosting a tea party and sleepover. Oh my god. Oh is this the seven-year-old? Yes, yeah, she's turning, turning eight. So um eight.

Speaker 1 1:01:21

That'll be I love eight to eleven, I think, is the best.

Speaker 2 1:01:24

Yeah, I I agree. I it's it's been feeling good as we've gotten into this this year.

Speaker 1 1:01:30

And I'm only speaking of that, speaking to the experience of being a former eight to eleven year old. But I loved that time of life, even though like that was when my dad left, and my parents got divorced, and my mom remarried, like all that. There was a lot of trauma going on. But you're just gaining so much independence, so much knowledge about the world, and so much ability to like do reading on your own and form relationships at school and like be a little bad. Like, it's just a fun, it's a fun time.

Speaker 2 1:01:58

It's very I think it's like the old it's childhood. Like, I think when we all think back of childhood, we're mostly thinking of the sort of yeah, like seven to twelve year old years. So yeah, it's been it's been good, and it'll be it'll be a good little party.

Speaker 1 1:02:11

Well, um, I think that's it for today's episode. Yes. I'll edit that into something slightly more eloquent, perhaps. But uh, where can people find out more about you and your work?

Speaker 2 1:02:22

Yes. So I um you can check out my website at corianhaydoo.com. That is like relatively updated usually. Um, my Instagram is coriandhaydo. My substack, I recently retitled my sub stack from the overshare to books and bangs. Um and that is at corianhaydu.subst.

Speaker 1 1:02:41

Because I would say you were undersharing. For something called the overshare, you were undersharing. It was not delivering in the title promised.

Speaker 2 1:02:50

No, I needed to really center it. And then yeah, uh, if you are interested in pre-ordering mothers and other strangers, that would mean a lot to me. Um, and there is also tour information, which you can find on my Instagram. I'm going to six different uh cities, towns right now and hopefully more to come.

Speaker 1 1:03:12

Are you coming with it?

Speaker 2 1:03:13

Right now it's East Coast. Um, you know, I'm sort of crossing my fingers that maybe some more happens. But yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:03:20

To get you out this way.

Speaker 2 1:03:22

Yes.

Speaker 1 1:03:22

Um, great. I'm Sara Zarr. Sara Zar.com is where you can find everything, including links to information about the writer's circle and my newsletter. I'm barely on Instagram anymore. I'm just really too fragmented already to and I don't have anything that I need to, I don't know. I am teaching a workshop this summer in San Diego. Fun. Like a week long. It's kind of a very so many of these types of workshops are just a weekend.

Speaker 2 1:03:50

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:03:51

This is one I've taught at before, and it's like, yeah, it's like you get there on a Saturday and then it's like Sunday through Saturday with a day off in the middle.

Speaker 2 1:03:59

It's a full Wow, and it's all you are you the only teacher?

Speaker 1 1:04:03

Oh no, it's SarahCon. No, it's a whole I'd sign up for that.

Speaker 2 1:04:07

I there's a whole there's like taking out my checkbook.

Speaker 1 1:04:09

There's a poetry track, there's like a nonfiction track, there's uh what other genres are there? I don't know. There's other stuff going on, and then there's like evening readings, and there's a lot, and it's not cheap because it's a whole week of everything. But if that's the kind of thing you might be interested in, you can subscribe to my newsletter and you will learn more. Sounds awesome. Well, it's great to talk today. Um, I've been looking forward to it, and have a great couple weeks.

Speaker 2 1:04:42

Thank you. I'm glad the the blizzard didn't deter me and that we could uh we could connect.