3. In Which Corey Sells a Book, or, Story of an Agent

We go on the journey of how Corey's newest novel, Mothers and Other Strangers, came to be. Also: how and if we share work in progress, and Sara's Song Sung Blue crisis.

Approximate chapters:

0:00 - 29:00: Intro and still writing check-in

29:00 - 45:00: The tale of Corey selling her adult debut and why your agent matters so much. Plus bonus weird instrumental transition!

45:00 - end: Margin Notes

Some of those Margin Notes:

Heaven's Gate: The Cult of Cults (HBO)

Forever, or a Long, Long Time by Caela Carter

Little One by Olivia Muenter

Focus: Adults in the Room (Slate)

Anastasia Krupnik series, Lois Lowry

More about Sara Zarr

More about Corey Ann Haydu

Theme music: Creative Commons Deep Friendship by Lobo Loco is licensed under CC BY-NC-SA 4.0

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:06

Hi, I'm Sarah Czar.

SPEAKER_00 0:08

I write novels. Hi, I'm Corianne Haydew. I write for all ages, picture book through adult. Amazing.

SPEAKER_03 0:18

Um This is our third episode. And we released the pilot a couple days ago. So we're we're on about just so people know, we're on about a two or three weeks after recording is when it actually gets posted or so. So that's the kind of schedule we're on. And thank you so much, everyone who's already added the still writing feed to your podcast app. It's amazing to see the downloads and get the little emails from Buzz Sprout with the updates. It's been exciting.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Like we had we had a little secret and now it's another secret anymore.

SPEAKER_03 0:58

Buzz Prout. And again, thank you so much for listening and tell a friend. Um heads up, I'm gonna be a little distracted today. I have uh aged loved ones in the hospital. I'm just always on standby for like, do I need to suddenly leave town? Do I need to answer a call right away? So if I seem distracted, I am, but that's okay because we're gonna talk a lot about you today, Corey. I think I feel like this is gonna be a very corey episode. Um exciting. I love attention. Yeah, I think we established that in the last episode that we're both we're both in it for the attention, pretty much. And the money. The attention and the money. This is our fun little intro segment. It's just gonna be briefly what our podcast cover is. I know it looks like a children's book. That may be a misstep. I don't care. We think it's cute. We think it's cute. I think it's very cute. We think it's cute, but let's uh talk briefly about the little illustrations that are in the podcast cover, what they mean. So why don't you start with the dollhouse?

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Yeah, so I've got this cute little dollhouse, which actually, and I don't know how much you even know this, but has sort of like three levels of meaning for me. Um one of my like best childhood memories is actually my dollhouse, which was like quite like a project I did um did with my mom. Uh and that, but we didn't have a lot of projects like that. So that's like a really lovely memory. Um, and I also have two daughters. Uh, so things like dollhouses are a big, a big part of our universe. Um, although sometimes get really rejected. Dollhouses, they're tricky. I loved mine, and I'm still sort of waiting for like the love to come in for one of my one of my kids. Um, and then uh for sort of a third layer of meaning, they they feature a there is a dollhouse that features somewhat heavily in my adult novel. Um, and we actually played a little bit with the idea of having dollhouse be part of the title. We didn't go go that route. Um, but yeah, so that's sort of for me, it's on like I feel very it's an image that I is resonant with me on multiple multiple levels.

SPEAKER_03 3:25

We had I have a sister and we we had uh a mouse house. So Oh cute like the calico critters. I don't know what calico critters are. It they were this was the 70s, okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

I I think calico critters might be from that. That's why I say I'm gonna go they have a 70s vibe right now. Yeah, yeah. I'm very curious if that's I could be wrong. Maybe calico critters are very current, but when I see them, I'm like, gosh, that has a real like old school vibe to me. They feel kind of old school.

SPEAKER_03 3:57

No, I know what you're talking about, and there's like there's a TikTok account that makes these very elaborate um family drama stories with calico critters. No, they were more I it's really hard to describe them, but so there weren't like human representations inside our dollhouse. It was like oh mice, but then we really loved, you know, saving up some babysitting money or allowance or whatever, and going to the hobby shop in our neighborhood, which we lived in San Francisco, and so we would walk down Geary Street and go to the hobby shop. I'm trying to remember what it was called. It was an independent, you know, it wasn't like a chain store, it was just like a independent business. And by okay, like this month we're buying the balsa wood armoire that we have to like stain the pieces, glue together, uh shellac it, whatever. I love that. It it was very fun, and the house itself was something my mom and sister, I believe, got my sister's godfather to build. It was just it was a homemade house. It was like open on the front. Yeah, that's what mine was too pine pieces, like a yeah, like a very regular like a your basic doll house. Um, okay, so what else is in that little graphic? We I feel like the teapot and coffee cups is self-explanatory. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

I think. Who doesn't like a caffeine beverage? And really for me, particularly hot. It really has to be hot or I'm I'm out.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

It's like a hundred degrees here, and I'm going to the coffee shop asking for a hot latte. Getting some.

SPEAKER_03 5:41

And I actually get irritated when they say hot or iced. Because if I don't say, isn't the default for coffee hot? Of course. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

I got roasted showing up with a hot beverage to like a child's birthday party once. People were just appalled at the, you know, the middle of July. They're like, what are you doing? It's so good. No, this is the only way.

SPEAKER_03 6:05

Scientifically, I think hot beverages help cool your body off. I'm gonna have to put a pin in that and say, I'm not an expert, but I seem to remember that that bit of information around backed up by science. And I feel the same way about if I order a martini and they say gin or vodka, I feel like it's gin, unless you say vodka anyway. Yeah, yeah. Um, moving on. So also on the image, well, obviously there's a podcasting microphone because this is a podcast, so that was a pretty basic choice. And then there's a cat because I don't have kids, but I do have a large tabby cat who requires a lot of uh emotional support as well as three eye drops a day. I feel like cats aren't supposed to need that. That's lies, that is misinformation. And I think anyone with cats will agree with me that that is very inaccurate. Wow. They need they need entertainment, they need sensory enrichment, they need social time, they need playtime. My cat in particular needs all these things because we adopted him in early pandemic, and so for like the first four years we had him, someone was with him all the time, just like all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now that we're both kind of back to leaving the house for jobs, you know, that was an adjustment. Um He's like, What is going on? So there's he where's my sensory? He is actually like 80% of the conversational topic between my husband and me most of the time. And Annie's most of the pictures on my iPhone. And his name is Mr. Donut, but we just call him Kitty. Um, and then the other thing that people may not be able to identify is there's an insulin pump because the other big thing in my life is I'm a type 1 diabetic. I have many medical devices attached to me, and I never get to not think about that. So that's always there. Shout out to everyone with a chronic disease. Um, I think that's it. And then our pictures, I don't know, like I'm clearly not a graphic designer. I have some Canva skills, and I just that is what I came up with, and that is the podcast cover the end.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

I mean, I'm in I'm the um technologically challenged one in this duo. So to me, it's extremely impressive.

SPEAKER_03 8:50

I have to tell everyone, Corey, who is a professional writer, a professional writer, her laptop is so old that she couldn't download Audacity, which anyone who podcasts, you know, like what a lightweight piece of software that is. Uh, so I'm working on I'm working on Corey to replace that. She says she has living on the edge. She says she has a check sitting on her desk ready to pay for a new computer. And I'm like, a check? What are you doing? I'm like, you're gonna go into the Apple style. I'm 97. I mean, I think it's cute. I think it's quaint. Um okay, well, let's get into it. Let's get into it.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

Um, hey, Sarah, are you still writing?

SPEAKER_03 9:38

I certainly am. Yeah, I I really am. And uh since we last spoke, a couple things. One was uh traitors ended. The traitors season ended. And my husband was out of town. Uh he wasn't expecting to be out of town for the finale because we actually have aging parent issues going on on both sides right now. And he wasn't expecting to be out of town, but I was like, I can't wait a week to watch the traitors finale because I'll go online and I'll see. And oh, in seconds. So we watched it oh like over with we simultaneously watched it in two different locations and texted during the commercial breaks because we're on the discounted peacock plan where we have to watch commercials. And uh anyway, my breakthrough about my book came about while he was out of town, so I had a lot of sort of more mental free time. Um and I was actually doing a little workout and I was thinking about traders and thinking about my book, and thinking about someone I remembered from my adolescence whose someone I don't remember the exact details, something about his parents' um situation. Like his primary parent had passed away, and he was basically living alone in this townhouse down the street from high school. Which is a thing that you could do in the 80s, and um it sort of tangentially relates to my book, but but but mostly through all these thoughts, and it this is the mystery of the human brain and the connections it's making somehow I was thinking about him, I was thinking about traitors, and then I just had this breakthrough about my book because I I was just thinking about one like miners living alone, but also, and I'm I'm not gonna get too into it because it's gonna get into the weeds with the plot of my book, which is nothing anyone needs to know this far in the future. Uh in the past, the future. Um but I just had this this plot breakthrough that was based on the idea of I love it when the bad guys sort of plant the seeds of their own destruction, which happens all the time on traders. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where that they get so confident that they're in control of the situation and have everyone uh you know under their thumb that they make an unforced error and just do something or say something that makes it really easy to get rid of them. And yes, it's like a classic, a classic hubris hubris moment, which is the exactly. And so this idea, I just thought about taking that concept into my book. And I'm very excited about it and how that's gonna sort of make the main character a little more active in her ultimate triumph, I guess. That's not a spoiler to say that the main character triumphs. That's pretty pretty standard stuff in young adult fiction. Um so I do love that. And I was thinking specifically of Candace on Traitors.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

Oh boy. Did you watch any of the reunion? I did, yeah, I did watch the reunion.

SPEAKER_03 13:19

She really went for it. She still thinks that she was a mastermind of some sort. I know, I love that. I don't know what show she was on. To the point, it's kind of she's on that track of like it certainly couldn't have been anything I did wrong, therefore, there was like an in-game conspiracy.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Yes, it's the opposite of the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. It's like the opposite logic to that.

SPEAKER_03 13:46

It's not Occam's razor, it's Occam's jello. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Giant circle away.

SPEAKER_03 13:55

Um, and then I also was just thinking about how much more easily ideas flowed and came to me while my husband was gone. And I was thinking of this conundrum, which I've talked about before, and I mean, like literally with my husband, but and with other married friends or people who cohabitate. It's hard. Like for me, the ideal existence would be to live like next door to each other in separate living units. Yeah. Um, yeah, I don't know. I how do I create that kind of alone time in my head without like my husband having to leave the state? Um something.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

And he do you guys wake up at the same time? Like, is it just that you're starting off? He gets up before me in the same space. Yeah. Okay, that doesn't help. He's like a five starts. Oh yeah, I feel like that's a big part of the the appearance.

SPEAKER_03 14:49

He does go to bed earlier though, and uh for a long time we made it a goal to always go to bed at the same time. But I think right now, especially with the time change, I'm just gonna take advantage of kind of staying up later, just doing my thing. I don't know, it's just different. Um but then the other thing was over the weekend, I had like one of those four to five thousand word writing days. Wow. Which was amazing. I haven't had one of those in years. That's amazing. It's very rare for me. And the unfortunate part of that is those words were not on the book that's under deadline. So of course not. Why would they be? Yeah, exactly. Because honestly, you get a new idea or just something. Oh, it's this is like this spark is alive. I need to like get everything down I can about it now. And for working writers, it is true that once you sell a book, there's an aspect to it where it feels like, well, this is not really mine anymore. I'm doing it for this. Like it is, but it's also people are waiting. It just feels more like homework, which obviously you'd be trying to avoid if you're me. I know you don't do this because you're special. Um, but the thing that no one knows about to me is always the funnest thing to work on.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Oh, for sure. It's the contracted versus uncontracted book dilemma.

SPEAKER_03 16:19

But I'm gonna try and take from that experience, like, okay, I can I can write a lot in one day. And this was like when my husband was back, it was just a normal Saturday, like I got other things done. So it didn't require like my whole life to be emptied out. Um yeah. So I can write that much, and I do like writing. Good reminders. So now I need to take the energy of having this plot breakthrough and the energy of just being like, I'm gonna write and write and write. I need to like bring those two things together.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Yes, so that they're applied to the correct project. Not that the other one was incorrect. No, it was incorrect.

SPEAKER_03 17:08

How about you, Corey? Are you still writing?

SPEAKER_00 17:11

I am still writing. I had um, and I um I also have a question that that sort of goes with with what my past two weeks of writing looked like. Um, I think in the last episode, I talked about um the conversation I had with an editor about my middle grade project and sort of um major, major sort of rethinking I needed to do on that. And I finally did that thinking um with the help of, I have these two friends um who I meet up with after drop-off in the mornings on Thursdays, and we go to a they're they're both moms at um at my older daughter's school, and we go to a cafe that's down the street, and we sort of chit-chat for probably longer than we should, and then we write. And, you know, that's been a really nice addition to my to my sort of weekly writing life and sort of a haven't been in that shared writing space for a while. But they've sort of heard me, because we have this chit-chat component, they've heard me talk about um the the trouble with the Smithow Grade project and the difficulty I've been having landing on kind of like the right entry point and the right framing for the idea and just the mechanics of it. And this is, I mean, it's been months, it's really more than months. It's been a very long time I've been grappling with it. And I don't usually talk a lot about my projects in any sort of specific way outside of like my agent or my editor. But you know, for whatever reason, I guess because they're talking about it, I've sort of like opened up a little bit about some of the specifics of this project. And um, in in talking it through, I like sort of laid out some more of the issues with it and some of the things I was thinking about. And I had like a huge breakthrough on what it needed to be, is that it was sort of a combination of that conversation with my editor and then this conversation with these two friends who, you know, they have they haven't read a word of it. They've heard, you know, they've just heard me grappling with it, and we occasionally will talk about um, you know, some of the like symbolic elements or the plot elements, and they're always asking like why I'm having trouble with it, or like what why am I interested in this element, or what was I hoping this element would get across? And I don't know, something about this conversation. Um, I had just a major breakthrough and I I wanted to write it up as a pitch first because that can help me like a sort of three to four page pitch um that I'd been working on. And I finally I got to it. I just got to the actual point. I stripped it down, I built it back up, and then I finally started like actually writing from that pitch, which I sent that pitch to my editor who said, like, yes, you know, had a a thing or two to sort of um pull out. But oh my god. I and it's like as soon as I started working on it from that new angle and with the the conception of that new pitch placed on it, I I feel like it's it. And I don't know that I've felt like it's it the entire time I've been working on it, which is a really long time now. Um so it's been a good, it's been really good.

SPEAKER_03 20:20

Um this one's under contract.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Yeah, this is the second and it's a good one. Oh yeah, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:27

For me, notoriously difficult for me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

Yep, me too. And often that also, you know, editors move jobs a lot. So often you have one editor for the first book and another for the second. In this, in this case, um uh one editor bought the two books and then the second editor has has worked on both books, so that's good at least. But yeah, and I don't always have a idea of what that second book is, or if I do, it's gonna change so much. So um, yeah, I finally there was one element of it I've been excited about for a while, and now I've found a way to marry that to the sort of juicier magical element that I needed to connect it to more. And yeah, it's that it's actually felt good writing it. But it it led me to wonder if you are sharing like writing with anyone these days, or even not even the writing, because like I said, I'm not sharing the actual words, but like the talking through of plot is just not something I've done since like right after grad school, a lot of us kind of stuck together and were talking about writing. But I really have not been in that place for I mean 10 years, maybe. Um, and it was interesting to to see how how it worked now and maybe the the way I need that conversation that I don't need to show pages and get feedback, but like maybe I do need some amount of conversation on specifics.

SPEAKER_03 21:47

I don't regularly do that. Yeah. I my issue is if it's early days, and early days, as you know, that can be a year in. I can be really thrown off by people if they don't kind of get get it. And or they are like, oh yeah, you mean like this book that's already been published? That sounds like, or you know, um, yeah, they go, why don't you know how they ask some question that makes me go, oh no, I haven't thought this through. And then I just get insecure about it, you know, just like with my writing process with it. So I have to really protect it in in a way, but I wish I could be more open in talking through, and I have done in the past. I I would say what is this, 2026? I would say like 15 years ago, like when I was when I was doing like my second, third, fourth, fifth books, I definitely was more often typically what I would do is kind of do do the whole thing without a lot of conversation. But then when I had the version of the manuscript that was gonna be kind of the almost final, like ready to go into copy editing almost. Yeah. Late, late, late revision. Then I would send it to a writer. A couple times it was Tara Altabrando, who we both know. Um a one time Adele Griffin, uh, one time Kevin Emerson. Um and to just go like, is like what are like are we missing anything? Is there some glaring omission? And I know that my editors do that also with like other people in house when it gets to that stage of just like because you as the writer spend so much time staring at it, it's easy to miss really obvious things, and it's it's honestly the same for editors because you just get immersed in a particular aspect of the book, and then you might miss something. So sharing it around before it becomes too late to change anything. Uh I do try and do, but not every single time. Sometimes I'm just I've I just know in my gut, like it's it's done, it's good, it's ready. Other times it's like, okay, I I feel like something's missing, but I'm not sure what it is. Talking through ideas, I really like to do like when I lead a workshop or I work with students, I I kind of take an opposite approach to a lot of like traditional MFA style workshops are a lot about we can only talk about what's on the page. Nothing outside of like what we're seeing. I do the opposite, and I'm just like, tell us the entire story of this book. Like, where is this going? Like what questions do you still have? You know, what part aspects of the plot have you not like figured out yet? And then look at the pages and talk about what is on the pages. Um it's not it's not like giving them a chance to explain because you shouldn't have to explain what's there if you if you're thinking in terms of publishing and I'm gonna send this to an agent and I'm not gonna have an opportunity to explain things. Like don't worry, it gets good in 20 more pages. 100% totally true. But when you're in a workshop setting, I feel like let's just bring it all in. Spoil the plot for us, tell us everything, tell us the whole thing from beginning to end. And I love troubleshooting stories with students. I don't know why I I don't know if it's a matter of like it so much has to be the right person or group of people, and I don't have that right now, or I don't know. I think it's a lot, I do so much figuring out on my own ahead, and I don't want to be blown off course. Yeah. Uh yeah, it just really has to be the right people and the right moment. And it sounds like that was that for you.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

Totally, totally. And yeah, like I said, I've been resistant to it for a long time and just uninterested, like just not feeling like there was much for me there. But um, you know, it's funny. I wonder if it started being useful to me again too. With my last middle grade, the one, the one that just came out in January, the ordinary and extraordinary Aud in Green. Um, I might, I might have mentioned this, but funnily enough, I used to talk it through with my older daughter, um, who was in kindergarten at the time. And she just really liked the plot. Like she liked the idea. It was a princess switching places with someone in the real world, um, and sort of living each other's lives. And so she got a kick out of that. And um, so she, you know, I'd pick her from school and she'd be like, What did you write today? And I'd have to give her like a little bit of a, you know, tell her a little bit about a scene I wrote. And she, because she was asking like so many questions about the specifics of the plot and what was gonna happen and what had happened, I sort of had to like justify it to her. Um, I had to like, you know, make sure it was sturdy. And she gave me a huge idea for that book. She was like, uh, I was telling her about a character, and she's like, oh, are they the bad guy? And I had it had never occurred to me that there even really was a bad guy in the book, which is like maybe a problem that that hadn't occurred to me. Um, and like this character was just sort of like a whatever character. So uh, you know, something about that maybe like unlocked freedom for me to like talk it out a little bit. Yeah, like if I can do this with a five-year-old, I should be able to do this with my adult friends. Exactly. Exactly. So I don't know. For the last two, yeah, I guess for the last two middle grade novels, I've needed that outside perspective on the plotting part, like on the sort of how is it all gonna make sense, which is what I tend to have the most trouble with anyway.

SPEAKER_03 28:00

Yeah, no, that's that's a good point. Maybe I'm gonna try at some point bringing that. Fia's available if you want to talk to talk to her. Yeah, I I'm I'm always interested in this because I do I do know of writers who are constantly in each other's books and talking through everything and sharing pages. And in a way, I covet that, but but also it sounds not good. So no.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

I really no, I have no no interest in in the pages. That's that's an a no for me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:36

I one thing I wanted to talk about in this episode, and I think this one is won't come out until your after your adult book is released, but I want to hear the story of how your adult book found a home because I I know it was a journey and it's one of those things where it can look from the outside like oh, she's been doing X, Y, and Z, and now she's also doing an adult book. Makes it look easy. Um she must have all the right connections. So, you know, as much in as much detail that you want to share, just kind of the basic selling of mothers and uh other strangers.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

You know, I I think this story is a lot about my agent, interestingly. Um, which isn't the case with the selling of every book. Like, of course, she's really involved with that every time and and all of that. But when you have an established relationship with a publisher um as I do, you know, that how much she has to like push and pull for things, you know, changes.

SPEAKER_03 29:46

Yeah, there's not as much mediation.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

No, no, it's more about like money and things like that. You know, she's negotiating for that, but the that initial trying to get someone to understand my work is or like is not as much a part of the the job um in that space in the career. But with this, so I, you know, I I started writing it probably eight years ago. Um, and I showed her pages, I don't know, maybe five-ish years ago, four to five years ago. I I I let her know um that I was working on an adult novel that I didn't really know like if that was somewhere I should be spending my time. Yeah, it would it would be like in that five-ish years ago, because it was definitely sort of right after the right in pandemic-y times. And she also was, she's, you know, has been representing children's literature for uh as long as I've been writing it, but also was sort of getting interested in in moving a little bit more into adult at that time. And I showed her the pages and she had a very strong positive reaction to them, which is um, it's not like she's not supportive, she's always supportive of the work and enthusiastic, but it, you know, not having known her, I've been working with her the entire time I've been writing, so you know, for like 15, 16 years. So I I really know her responses, and this was like an outsized response to the pages.

SPEAKER_03 31:06

I mean, I think a good agent for me does not gush over every single thing you no, no.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

She's often like, Great, I like it.

SPEAKER_03 31:15

Yeah, or like interesting, write 50 more pages and yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

Um, but with this, she's like, oh my god, you have to put energy into this. This is like this is this is it. I love this, I love this, I love this, I love this. Um, and she had like framing ideas and you know, a lot of editorial feedback. Anyway, so I can continued to work on it with a with a so much new like excitement because of that enthusiasm was was really exciting. And then when I when I finished the book, that enthusiasm really remained. And she had this very she was so certain. She was, yeah, and again, I and like directly I mean, very like I and I've just never again, she is really supportive, obviously, of my career. She's been my agent a very long time. I've just never seen her quite this like this, this is it. This is the one, this, this is like everything you've ever wanted to do. Like she just was so sure. She's like, this is gonna, we're gonna, it's gonna be great. It's gonna be huge. And yeah, so we both we both felt really excited and great. And um and a couple weeks later, done deal. And then I sold it, and now, you know, it's great. Um, so you know, so she comes up with sort of this great list of editors who who I really admire um and I was very excited about, and we we go out with it. Um, it was it's such a stressful period of time being on submission, first of all, in a new space. Because I not that I'm like some huge deal in children's, but I am like a little bit of a known quantity in the sense that people, you know, if you work in children's literature, I'll read that. I'll probably know my main. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, she wrote that. Yeah, of course. So I'm I'm used to feeling at least the comfort of like, hey, they know I'm like the real deal. They, they, they know a little bit about my work, maybe. Um, maybe they've even said they like my work in some exchange we've had. To go out to adult editors, like I don't know any of them really. Um who, what, who's this one? And I don't know that I know how to write adult. Like, I still, you know, in spite of of Victoria's enthusiasm, I'm still like, does this just sound like a YA writer trying to write adult and like pretending it's that? So it's very, you know, it's stressful and and vulnerable. And people read it really, people the the enthusiasm to getting the manuscript was big. People were like, I'm diving right into this, which was unexpected and exciting. We just started getting these responses for like a multi-month period. Like the most enthusiastic responses to a novel. I love this. It's incredible. Wow, the writing, gosh, this plot. Like they'd clearly, you know, editors don't have to read past the first page if they don't want to go. They clearly all read the whole book, which felt like, how do they even have time to do that? I just like, you know, this moment and this scene, and I love it so much. Um, no, what is happening? You know, this is so just like the most frustrating responses. And weren't they when we got one?

SPEAKER_03 34:22

Let us know, like, no, but oh yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

It was a lot of like let us know if people other people are interested. Like, yes. Thank you for reminding me of that. Yes, it wasn't actually all no's. It was a lot of like, I love this. Um, let me know if anyone else offers on it.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

They didn't want to be the same. They want it, then I definitely want it. Yeah, yeah, thank you. I actually forgot that aspect. That's right. I would get some no's, but I got a lot of this. Like, I mean, multiple, I'm saying maybe like six different editors would say, like, I I really love this. Um, I think this is really special. Um, so let me know uh what's going on with it.

SPEAKER_03 35:00

Like, well, what's going on with it is you could make an offer.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

And then a lot of things could go on with it, actually.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

Um I'm so I totally forgot about that. That's so funny. Um, yeah, it was a ton of that. And so this like weird purgatory of like, it seems like a ton of really exciting editors are extremely interested, but just want someone else to make the first move. And just no one was was making that that first move. And we even got one that was, you know, oh my god, the one that really, there's a couple that really struck with me. The one that I think is particularly funny is they were like, you know, I just think it's like a little too commercial. I was like, what does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 35:47

Like I just think a few too many people might buy it, and I just want to keep it, you know, a little lower on the on the sales.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

And it it is, I think, like the some of some of the editors sitting with like, I love this, but what would I do with it? I what I gathered was that there was a feeling that it was sort of straddling a line between like literary and commercial, where um Which I thought is what they all want. I would I would think that's a strength, but it seemed to be a little bit of a a deterrent or like a thing that gave gave pause. And I always think of like a Meg Woolitzer operating in that space, right? Like something you really want to sit and read and spend time with, but but with um, you know, elevated prose on on some level. Um so anyway, this went on for I don't even six, six to eight months, I think. It was a long time and just the movement never happened. And again, because this is really so much a story about about Victoria. I think there's agents that would get that and just be like, uh, you know, let's let's revise it. Um let's let's rethink, let's table it. Um, I don't know. Victoria was like, no, they are wrong. Like, I know. And and she's like, I get these responses are saying, like, we all want to read this book, and everyone's gonna like reading it. Um, and that these responses are not telling me, no, let's table it. They're telling me like my instincts are right, and this needs to find a really amazing home. So I believe she was talking to like a colleague and talking about this sort of literary commercial conundrum, I guess. Um, and that colleague mentioned um Sally Kim, who uh heads up Little Brown and is an incredible editor, a really well-known editor. She edited um Such a Fun Age, which is one of my personal favorite books of like the last 15 years. Anyway so Victoria was like, okay, like let's, you know, let's send it to the head of Little Brown. And like this is a person that I Victoria had not um worked with Sally before. I'm not even sure that Victoria had sent Sally something before, but again, like Victoria's certainty. I I yeah, it makes me like emotional because she just was so sure. And it I was so like beaten down by this confusing response that I I couldn't make sense of and didn't feel like there was a path forward for me to fix. And in yeah, she didn't pull back and say, like, oh, maybe we'll send it to like a smaller press, or maybe we'll she went forward. She was like, This is this needs an amazing home. And like I'm not stopping until we find it the home it deserves. Um, and very quickly, um, you know, she sent it to Sally, and I think within a couple of days, we she started hearing, hearing from Sally how much she loved the book.

SPEAKER_03 38:43

Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

And um, I mean, I remember it was like a, I think it was like a Sunday night, and I had gotten home from a a trip to see my in-laws, and I had this text from Victoria, you know, that was like, oh my God, I think she's liking it. I think she's liking it, like, bah, you know, and and then and then it was sort of that like very quick, like, oh my gosh. Um this dream dream editor, you know, again, really worked on one of my absolute favorite books, and it just such a um huge figure in in publishing. Gets it and not just like gets it, like really, really gets it. And and and so it's such a weird feeling that they're reading it right now. Like I'm sitting here and like they're over there, like reading it. And yeah, as as soon as Sally Sally finished, we we got on the phone and and sort of like the rest is history. And it was just it was such a um, it was the opposite of sort of that initial um lots and lots of interest with no movement. Again, it's sort of like I've never had this kind of conversation, just like her basically telling me what what resonated with her about the book and and what she loved about it. And it was so um, so like precisely in line with what I had hoped would come across and what mattered to me about the book. Um, and we were just really aligned in the aspects of it that that we wanted to like make sure really shone through. I yeah, I just felt like she a hundred percent got it. There, I didn't feel like there was anything, I don't know. There wasn't some part of it that she's like, ugh, but I don't why would this be in here? No, like she she really understood sort of the whole the whole vision and uh dream.

SPEAKER_03 40:19

That's the dream editorial response.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

Incredible. It was such an amazing conversation to to just feel that scene and it's what I got from Victoria, and then I and then I got it from Sally, and like that's that's what you're looking for in an editor is someone who um of course can like help make the book better.

SPEAKER_03 40:37

But they're not trying to alter your vision for it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:41

Like really gets what it is about the book that is special. The belief from from my agent was like nothing I've ever um like experienced before, not just professionally, but like maybe even personally, just someone like I don't know, and Victoria's a a really incredible person in general, but um just to she's a she's like a big personality, and um, you know, to see her be like, no, I I will not stand for this. This book will be big, and like this book deserves it. And um, I just I love that part of the story is like her her belief in it.

SPEAKER_03 41:17

Um and I I'm so glad you got to have that experience. And it sounds like overall it was like a six or seven year, you know, from from when you first like sent the pages to release date March 31st, 2026 or 30th. Yeah, um, it's been a long time.

SPEAKER_00 41:37

Yeah, yeah. Um, with her just sort of standing there, like making sure I did this side project, you know, all side projects.

SPEAKER_03 41:45

The whole time you were publishing children's books, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:49

And truly, I wouldn't have kept going if, you know, without sort of the like she really said like this is a priority. Yeah, because you're trying to sell, you know, I'm selling in spaces I'm more comfortable, I have my contract work, you know, there's a lot that I could try to prioritize. Okay, should I move into this space? Should I try to sell another YA? You know, I haven't sold a YA in quite some time, things like that. And to have someone be like, okay, of course, like we're working on the books, you know, that you've been working on and we're doing that, but like take the time for this. Um, and I think especially, not especially, but in particular for me as a parent, like I don't, you know, the time is limited. Um and so to have someone say, like, yes, and you deserve the child care. Like, I, you know, part of it too was like a a big portion of the writing of this, the like sort of really concentrated time I wrote on this was when my second daughter was like extremely young, like three to nine months. I did a lot of work on it, and there's like guilt associated with that time away from her. Um, and I think having someone tell me that would be that was worth it, that I that that the book deserved that time away, that it, that it was okay to take that time. I don't know. I something about that was really necessary too, I think to feel like someone's waiting for this and telling me that I've landed on something um special and it's okay to like have a babysitter for a couple hours so that I can get in this, continue to be in the zone on this. Um, so she gave me permission, she didn't just give me like the the push sort of career-wise, she gave me like personal permission to like take the time um to do it at a time that you know you're being told like don't take any time for yourself.

SPEAKER_03 43:34

It's it's fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 43:36

Yeah, and I hope it reminds, you know, those that are in in sort of the pre agency part of their career, even you know, even people that have an agent but maybe aren't aren't quite sure if it's the right fit or whatever. I hope it's also a story about how important the right agent and the right editor are that you really need both. Like a a successful book really needs a small advocate um getting it into houses. And then a small advocate within the house.

SPEAKER_03 44:02

Um, and I just and to get you through the process of finishing it.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

Yeah, and to get through the process of finishing it. Yeah, good point. Um, um both, right, to get through the drafting and to get through the revising. Like you just really need um books really need like support that is um I can't think of a word, but really solid that is really solid, really solid support.

SPEAKER_03 44:23

They're not gonna be the me. How I was saying earlier, when I talk through ideas, sometimes I'm like I I get blown off course and just start questioning myself. And I know people who have agents who are like that, that once those agents start hearing some no's, they're like, oh, like maybe this isn't as good as I thought it was, and and they're like too easily scared off of a thing. Yeah. Um, I fortunately I don't have that kind of agent, and you don't have that kind of agent. It's hard. You need someone who can stick to their their guns on that. Well, should we we don't have a secret question because we're not doing the secret question every week. Um but I think you're gonna ask me a secret question.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

I'm gonna start I'm gonna bring one.

SPEAKER_03 45:09

Um let's go to margin notes. What have we been reading, watching, listening to, whatever? Yes. Um, I'll start since you've been talking. Give yourself a chance to rehydrate. Okay, a few things. One, I re-watched the Heaven's Gate documentary on HBO. Uh it's so good. It's such a compassionate look at the Heaven's Gate. Um, I mean, it was a cult, but the Heaven's Gate group. It's very uh I felt I feel like everyone is treated with the utmost respect in that documentary, which is not always the case in documentaries, and particularly because a few of the people who were in the group but did not participate in the group Suicide are still around and kind of still believe in the idea. And it's just super interesting because my book, My YA YA that I'm working on is about kind of a failed utopia and the aftermath of that. And so I've watched all of these things at least once. So I rewatched that to just like get my head back in the game for for that and just thinking through some of the how movements start and how they all kind of start with like a very sincere conviction that what they believe in is gonna improve everyone's circumstance because I'm in my current work just deciding how much backstory, how much flashback to use, how much backstory about the actual community, because I write so much about aftermaths that sometimes I'm not sure how much to go back to the beginning, but I feel like it needs that it needs that compassionate human view of like this started from a place of people looking for something better than what they were experiencing. And I think we can all relate to that. So that was really good. Um, and then also in the research realm, I'm reading a book called Leaving Utopia, which is specifically about people who were born into or grew up in one of these movements and then left, which is what my book focuses on. And it's by one of it's by two women in one of them. If other people are addicted to these uh documentaries, they will recognize you would recognize her her face because she's a talking head on every single she was like a lot on the vow. She's in the Heaven's Gate Dom. Okay. She's been in the uh the one about the women here in Utah who Ruby, the influencer lady. Oh, Ruby, yeah, Ruby Frankie. Anyway, this woman's name is Yanya, and I can't remember her last name, and I don't have it in front of me. Anyway, she's one of the co-authors of this book. It's pretty interesting. I just I love doing research. Yeah. And that's not always a good thing because I'm kind of stuck still in research. Um reading your book has been the pleasure, the pleasure reading just got to a big uh revelation, and I'm really eager to see how it's gonna pan out. Uh but it's it's great. I'm so excited for it to come out. And then the big one that's sort of like a bigger, a bigger conversation. I'll try not to go on too long. But I watched Song Sung Blue, the movie that came out in 2025 and is nominated in some categories for Oscars. It's Hugh Jackman and Kate Hudson. It's based on a real story of this like Neil Diamond impersonator and his wife and their story. And and the movie's good, it's very Hollywood, it's it's fine. I enjoyed it. But then, because I'm me, and then when I saw it was based on a documentary from 2008 uh with the same title, I went and found that on YouTube. And my husband and I watched that after we watched the Hollywood version. And the documentary was so bleak. It still included some of the elements from the movie that that that made it worth that made someone go, oh, this would make a good movie. Yeah. Where there's like a random tragedy that is like overcome to an extent. But it really caused me a slight existential crisis as someone who writes fiction because the altering of a real very messy, sometimes ugly human experience of this couple and what it turned into the Hugh Jackman-Kate Hudson version of it is like wow. That we really prefer life packaged up in that Hugh Jackman version and yeah, sanitized. Yeah, what does it mean to like take real life experiences and like transform them into fiction? What obligation do you have to try to adhere to an authentic human experience, even if it's not based on a specific real story? I as someone who writes realism, I've always really believed for me in my writing, I try to be real. I don't want anything to feel like glossed over, you know, or made more pleasant or whatever. And I don't know, it's interesting for me to ponder because we're in this cultural moment where like romances and romanticy and things like that are so popular. And it's like people don't want a real version. They want the they want the Hugh Jack. They want the huge acmonten. And I think that's always been a bit of an obstacle with my books in my writing career because I'm so resistant to giving myself over to anything that's gonna like feel good in any kind of unearned way that you know I I in the early in my career, especially, I got a fair number of emails about how my books ended. Too bleak. And I don't think they're bleak, but anyway, it was interesting. I'm not saying anyone else should do this. I think if you like a feel-good movie with a lot of music in it and Hugh Jackman is great and Kate Hudson is great, and there's still enough tragedy in it. Meets the corpus. It's great. If you want to be like me, you can watch it back to back with the real documentary and and just sit and think about your life and think about your choices. Um yeah. The other thing about the Song Sung Blue, the documentary. It's called the same thing.

unknown 51:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 51:17

You can find it on YouTube. 2008. One of the things that bothered me, and this always bothers me, is when someone in a creative on a creative path in a creative career, if they reach a point where they're not able or no longer able or whatever to like pay their basic life expenses, um, but then they just absolutely refuse to get any kind of a job. I really struggle with that because I've been there, I get it. I didn't want to leave my full, my full-time writing life and get a job. I I understand. Um, but when you have kids and there's like$36 left in the bank, and you're like, God called me to be a performer, like, I'm sorry. It just really, really gets to me. It bothers me. And there's that element to their story in the documentary. Oh, interesting. And I that is a whole different conversation about our creative writers, musicians, actors, whatever entitled to make a living doing their thing, future discussion. How about you? What have you been taking in?

SPEAKER_00 52:24

Um, so I have to respond to a couple of things you said, first of all, because I just can't help myself. But the I'm what you were talking about was is very interesting to me. I just had to make a couple of notes on my the current adult project I'm working on because there's an element of it that has to do with like the writing of the past. Um, and anyway, you just gave me some really good ideas. Um, I also wanted to recommend two books that are in the sort of cult um universe. My very fate, one of my favorite cult books is Kayla Carter's Um Forever or A Long, Long Time, which is a middle grade novel about a girl who um leaves a Okay, so this is what I was talking about earlier when I was like, why the but no, but it's very, very different. It's very, very different. Um, because it's really not about the construction of the cult at all. No, no, but it's just in the um it's it it's has very little from what I remember. It's also been a million years since I've read it. But um it's a very different I was thinking about it because it's a very different angle in, I think, than what you're working on. Um, and is about sort of more about family, but um, but has this cult background that I hadn't if interesting in middle grade. And then there's also a a a book out that I've that's been on my radar to read Olivia Mentor's um little one. So it's a book I'm wanting to read.

SPEAKER_03 53:38

That's an you always have good recommendations that I haven't heard of. Because I because I have a few on my list, including yeah, apparently. Um is it Jane Smiley? I have it on hold. I'm gonna I'm looking on Libby because I have it on hold. So let me just look on Libby and then we'll move on. My holds. Oh, it's not Jane Smiley, it's Alice Hoffman.

SPEAKER_00 54:01

It's called the Invisible Hour. I think I have that somewhere. That seems like that's in my bookshelves, but I haven't read it.

SPEAKER_03 54:08

Yeah, a novel about a young woman who grows up in a repressive book banning cult and finds escape through forbidden literature, particularly the Scarlet Letter. Lee, oh, this might be why it's on yours, leading her to a magical journey through time to meet uh Nathaniel Hawthorne. I didn't remember that part because I don't want to read it.

SPEAKER_01 54:25

Wow, what a what a twist that synopsis took. That's exciting.

SPEAKER_00 54:30

Okay, back to you. Um, sorry, those are my my cult recommendations. The good thing about cults is if you and I are any um any example, there's no end to the hunger for No, true, true, true.

SPEAKER_03 54:42

And there's there's a number of recent and forthcoming young adult books and adult books around this topic, and that's great.

SPEAKER_00 54:48

But I'm I'm always saying yes to them. Um so the the two things I have consumed lately, um, one is a new podcast that I heard about from Lindy West, um, not personally, uh either on her, you know, like social or um I listen to her podcast from time to time. But she recommended this uh podcast that's about, I guess, her class in high school. And the the podcast is called Adults in the Room, and it's about a sort of um elite is is maybe not the right word, but like a well-known and very particular type of community high school that my understanding is catered partly to like a sort of gifted and talented track, and then also had a regular track and maybe had sort of complicated dynamics already happening, but then there was an extra dynamic around these adults, um the teachers who their inappropriate relationships with students that sort of had a wide-ranging um what that looked like was kind of wide-ranging. And also, I mean, I yes, everything is sort of a cult, right? This is not a cult, but like their dynamic and charismatic personalities and and leadership qualities that led students to buy in to certain types of behavior and stuff. Um anyway, I'm really enjoying the podcast so far. I think I've listened to maybe three-ish episodes. Um, and the the journalists working on it are are really excellent. Are they went to the school and also happened to become journalists? And in fact, the story really begins with them as student journalists. Um and they covered, I guess they covered these things when they were student journalists. And then I think things kind of all fell apart from partly in response to the way they covered these dynamics when they were student journalists. Um, anyway, it's really interesting so far and uh resonates for sure with me having also, you know, been at school with dynamic and charismatic teachers who sometimes are really wonderful and sometimes um can be quite problematic. Um yeah. That sounds I'd be very into that. I'm adding it right now. Oh, you'll love it. I think you'll really, really like it. It's very well done. It's um it's really compelling, but also like um serious and grounded in a way I appreciate. And then the other thing I've I've been consuming is um I've been reading aloud with my daughter, Anastasia Kraftnick by Lois Lowry. And it had been a very long time since I've, you know, engaged with the Anastasia books. Obviously, I read a lot of children's literature in general and professionally, but you know, not things that old usually. And kind of like Ramona, uh, it holds up in this particular way. Not every aspect of it. Like obviously, there's aspects that are troubling. Um, but it's got a sort of snapshot quality to it. I don't know how well you remember Anastasia. Have you not remembered?

SPEAKER_03 57:38

I'm in a different generation. So they didn't come out till I was past that.

SPEAKER_00 57:42

Kind of think you should just read it for fun.

SPEAKER_03 57:44

They're really all not only all the Ramona books, but all the Beverly Cleary books, because that was very much in my generation.

SPEAKER_00 57:51

And Anastasia's like right after that, maybe, I guess. Okay, interesting. Well, like it's like Ramona, but in an age up. And I sort of forgot, I actually think you would like them, like as an adult, not even as an adult reading children's. I forgot how um filled out the the world is. Anastasia has a father who is a poetry professor, and that plays like a very big part of the plot. Her like visiting of his poetry class and um her engagement with like his professorial universe and her interest in poetry um really stuck out to me. And it's it's written in these like snapshots. It's it's less, it's so much less plot-driven than um we feel the need to make things now, I think. And I it sort of had me wondering like, doesn't that still appeal to kids? This like snapshot. I mean, it certainly still appeals to my daughter, right? Who like is loving it, and it's each chapter is like a contained sort of um story that it's connected, it's all within this one year that her mom is pregnant with a new baby brother in Anastasia. Yeah, it's like more of 13 than exactly overarching. Exactly. Yes, like a page turner, you know, like Ramona. Ramona also like those chapters are sort of contained in a certain way.

SPEAKER_03 59:01

This is the day Susan copied my owl puppet or whatever it's like exactly.

SPEAKER_00 59:07

So I'm just really enjoying it and sort of also feeling a little like longing for that type of children's and wondering if there's a place for that still. And can I make a place for that? Where like totally could. Uh I just think it's so cool and um appealing and real. It's so real. Like it's just very, very, very real. And each chapter is punctuated by these lists of things she loves and hates, with like cross-outs and and rewriting and then crossing out again, you know. And god, it's just really interesting. It there's a talk about religion. I mean, it really like goes into deep topics that um obviously books today have lots of like deep themes. I don't mean to say that, but I've just been really taken by like she's 10 in it. She's 10, not 13. She's 10 and she's like, she wants to convert to Catholicism for a period of time. She she it's just deep. Like they let her be really deep and cerebral.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:05

Kind of like some of the um some of the Judy Bloom books that are not high school, they're like the middle grade Judy Blooms that they're dealing with big.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:12

Yeah, big, real issues. And um, it's interesting to be a middle grade author whose work gets pushed back against a little bit for being like too heavy or too mature or inappropriate, or you know, because I deal with things like mental health and and addiction. And I'm like, but Anastasia was 10 and like they really let her grapple with like some really big ideas and yeah, I I don't know. It's been it's been a really cool experience to re to reread.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:41

I do think the 70s and 80s, and actually I'm looking, it does look like the first Anastasia book came out in 1979, so I probably did read it, but for some reason, it probably just having to do with because I pretty much discovered books on my own, like books my reading at that age would be I'd go to the public library and see what was there, or the school library, and it probably just means like no one handed it to me. But it does seem like that was such an innovative, and even to the nineties, I'd say the 70s to the 90s in children's literature from middle grade to YA was so there was so much permission that was such a wide-ranging way you could talk about things and deal with big issues and hard things. And I just think people in general were less precious about children. Yeah. And children are, I mean, we're very dysfunctional in this country because we're like, it's all about the children of the next generation, and yet we do nothing to create a world for them where they're gonna thrive. So are you are you like on social media right now in terms of like do you go on to threads and see what people are talking about?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:47

Very occasionally, or I'll go on and be sort of like whoa, and have to have to well, you have to be the you have to be in the future our threads correspondent.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:56

Yeah. So maybe in the next episode, I would love to hear like what are writers talking about on threads? And okay, great. But don't jeopardize your mental health. Just thank you. Just dip in and like see if you can see what the topics are going on in the writing world. Okay, we're learning how to close. And so this is a closing thought. Like, what what's going on for you? Well, you your book is coming out, like next couple weeks is all about your book coming out, and how is that feeling and what else is going on?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:31

Yeah, it's a lot of like little bits and pieces of work that I'm doing for that. And I'm trying to just keep time carved out for creative work because I know that can be really anchoring um, you know, around release week and as you're confronting how the book does and all that, it's good to have something you're really excited about sort of in your in your back pocket. And actually, like I this little note I took while you were talking about the sanitization of the the stories that we tell and are interested in. Um, I think that's I'm gonna think my goal is to sort of I want, I want to play with that. I think there's something interesting there that I hadn't thought about before. So I'm gonna try to focus on that while doing all the little bits and pieces of things I'm gonna do in the lead up to the release.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:14

Good, good, good.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:15

Yeah. How about you?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:17

Well, I'm gonna bring that 5,000 word writing day energy this weekend into my contracted project. I I feel like I'm finally at that stage with it where you just go, oh, kind of like with you in your middle grade, where you go, oh, okay, now I just kind of want to start over and just okay, now this is where it this is what it is, this is where it's all heading. I feel like I now have all the little pieces that I want to lay the groundwork to get this character from where she is at the beginning to where she needs to be at the end. And I need to latch on to the excitement of that. Yeah. And also just the the the get it done attitude. We you all at a certain point, all writers like when you're writing a book, you get to a point where you're like, I just I have to like rise and grind. It's go time, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:08

This is yeah, you can't sit around waiting for it to Yeah, no, it's it's time, it's time.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:13

So that is my plan for this weekend.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:17

That sounds wonderful.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:18

I can't wait to hear uh hear the update in a couple weeks. Yeah, and I'll be so we're posting these episodes. The first episode went live on March 9th. This will be like two Mondays a month, pretty much. So if you haven't already, go ahead and subscribe to the still writing feed, and you can find out anything about me or the podcast at sarazar.com. Also, anything you need to know in any given episode in terms of where to find us or in links and stuff is always gonna be in the episode information um on your podcast app. Order mothers and other strangers.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:53

Yes, and you can uh find out anything else you need to know about me at coriannehaydu.com.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:58

And if you live in the northeast, well, it's too by the time this comes out, it's too late.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:03

No, I don't think so, because I'm I'm touring into the second into mid April.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:09

Um, so if you if you live in the northeast, I'm going to Princeton, Doylestown, DC, Boston, Brooklyn, and uh Warwick, Rhode Island. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:18

Great to see you.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:20

Good to see you. Good luck, good luck writing.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:22

Thank you. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

Bye.