Still Writing
Corey Ann Haydu and Sara Zarr are two mid-career novelists who have lived through industry shifts, burnout, reinvention, and the constant recalibration that comes with staying in a creative career. They get together every couple of weeks to ask each other: are we still writing?
Still Writing
4. Does "Feels Bad" = "Is Bad"?
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Don't let the low energy intro fool you--in this one, we have so much to say. Along with our regular writing updates, we have reports from the field: Corey is our Threads correspondent, and Sara brings us the AI discourse. This was recorded several weeks before publishing, when all this was fresh out of the oven! Also: Corey asks her first Secret Question.
Some Margin Notes:
- The Outrun (Netflix)
- A Marriage at Sea by Sophie Elmhirst
- Man on the Run (McCartney/Prime)
- Heart the Lover by Lily King
More about Sara Zarr
More about Corey Ann Haydu
Theme music: Creative Commons Deep Friendship by Lobo Loco is licensed under CC BY-NC-SA 4.0
Hi, I'm Sarah Czar. I write novels.
SPEAKER_00And I'm Cory Anne Heydu, and I write books for children and young adults and adults.
SPEAKER_03We were just saying that we need to get present. We're struggling to get into the moment and be present. Yeah, any day now. What's going on for you?
SPEAKER_00Why is that hard? Um, I my head is just in like 75 different places at the moment, um, between like launch stuff and writing and kids stuff. And um it's the last, it's like the last week of this round of after school at my kids' school, which means I have to like get her early every day and watch performances and I guess watch her skateboard. And yeah, there's all there's like extra responsibilities. Yeah, I just can't wait. I've never seen such a thing. Um so it's like going to school every day to like participate in the after school that's you know there to so that I don't have to be there at 3 30 most of this. But then three times a year I have to like go to the after school thing as a parent. So yeah, it's just the different schedules makes my head start to start to fall apart apart.
SPEAKER_03I don't I don't like it. I don't like any change to to routines at all. Yep. And I it's a very busy month at my day job, and I almost for a minute was thinking I was gonna have to go to work today after we record. Oh normally this is like my sacred every two weeks day off.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And fortunately, I got enough ahead of everything yesterday where I don't have to, and I'm so happy because I so desperately need like I have the weekends, but yeah, that's different. That's like family, that's my husband, that's chores and just like prepping for the week and just different. Yeah. But these uh days that used to be every weekday and is now two weekdays a month where I can just be home alone doing my own thing, yeah, is precious. And I need two or three more days like this a month, and then everything will be good. So I I need to figure out how to do that. But that's like the third time I've talked about needing to figure that out on this podcast. So I promise this will be the last time until I figure it out.
SPEAKER_00You'll do that and I'll get my new computer, and then we'll both have.
SPEAKER_03I believe in you, Corey. I believe in you. It's so easy to get a new computer. Other than the money. I don't I don't want to sound uh I know I mean the money part of it obviously is expensive, but like if you have the money and you have that set aside, the actual acquiring of the computer is that and setting it up is so easy now, especially when you're on Mac like you are. So anyway, that's the last I'll say about that, also.
SPEAKER_00Um, Corey, are you still writing? I am still writing. Um I have been really getting into the groove with both of my projects, but in very different ways and like diff using different strategies, which I think is solving the problem of writing two first drafts at the same time. I'm sort of writing them with totally different styles. Um What do you mean?
SPEAKER_03Do you mean like in the pro in how like the process that you're using time of day or like tools or like what what do you mean?
SPEAKER_00No, just process. So my old way of writing novels, like um when I first started writing novels, I was a full like pantser. I was just like a right, whatever comes up, and I'll figure out a story later. And you know, I really took my time finding the beats of the story and letting that happen. Um, and then over the years, I've gotten more. Um, I think I talked about on one of the previous episodes, like writing this, you know, kind of voicey synopsis and really trying to follow at least that in a general sense. Um, but with this adult novel, I've sort of gone back to that old way of writing where I'm just going where the wind takes me and putting characters in scene with in scenes with one another and sort of following um little glimmers of ideas that I have. Um and just like letting it naturally emerge, which, you know, I over the years, part of the problems with teaching is like you become an evangelist for like a certain way of doing things, and then you then you abandon that. And you're like, no, no. So anyway, I've become this big, like, no, you really have to let go of that pantser lifestyle to, you know, find something more in between. And no, I'm like loving doing this like total fly by the seat of my pants, wherever the wind takes me, just to write the scenes as they come, and don't even worry, a plot will happen on its own, and I'll figure it out. And I have all the time in the world. I'm really, it's like being 27 again and like in my old favorite coffee shop that's gone.
SPEAKER_01And well, well thank you.
SPEAKER_00Okay. But just where like the I'm it's fun in a way that um is entirely, I'm letting myself not uh not be like bogged down with it needing this really specific hook right this second. Like I know that eventually it's gonna need those things and I'm gonna figure them out, but I'm letting myself write towards some vague ideas, um, but without, yeah, without the structure that I've found over the years. So I've sort of got returned to this old way of doing things and I'm I'm enjoying it. One thing that's come up is that I've started getting like little bits of inspiration in the evenings, which I haven't written at night, again, probably since I was 27. Um, I'm like, oh, do I need to like sit at my computer for even just maybe 20 minutes or something before I go to bed? I'm wondering if that's something I need to try because I am maybe it's because I'm reading in bed and then I get a little like, wait, oh, this idea. Oh, wait, maybe this is reading.
SPEAKER_03It's like you're at the end of the day, your brain can finally like empty out of the responsibilities, and then there's just more room in there. And then reading helps create that space too.
SPEAKER_00Yep. I I'm feeling that again for the first time in like a decade. So I'm I might try like a tiny, I want to set my expectation really low because I really need sleep. Um, but maybe just letting myself like get on the computer for 20 minutes to just get out a little a little scene or something and and follow that.
SPEAKER_03Um then so so now that's different from how you're doing the middle grade novel?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so the middle grade, I'm following that synopsis that I finally had that breakthrough. Right.
SPEAKER_03I mean, essentially you've already a version of the book. And you've done that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I've already, yeah, I've done that many times now with this book. So I really need to get down to business. Um, so yeah, I'm writing that one in the much more straightforward in order scene by scene and keep going back to that synopsis to just let me know what I should be doing next. And honestly, that's nice too. That's almost like I'm take I'm taking off the the like macro creative hack. I'm on a micro level, the creativity is there. I'm finding little fun details and stuff, but the the macro work is done and I'm letting it be done, and I'm just sort of following that that map. So that seems to be working to do it two different ways. That's almost like being in two different stages. Yes. But it's the same stage done different ways.
SPEAKER_03And it is funny what you were saying about teaching. This is what always made me uncomfortable about teaching, uh teaching creative writing specifically. You do find yourself like making these declarations and pronouncements, and then you just do the opposite. You know, like it's I don't I've come to kind of feel like I don't know that any of it can or should be taught. Uh, with apologies to everyone who spent tens of thousands of dollars on their MFA. Um I just I don't know. It always I did MFA faculty stuff for 10 years and I never felt a hundred percent like comfortable with that, like being the uh so-called expert or teacher in the room about something as mystical and mysterious as writing. And I understand the desire for students and teachers, all of us, to put systems on the process, but then it's all so mysterious. Like I just I don't know.
SPEAKER_00I don't know. I think sometimes the teaching it can be permissive in a certain way. Like I like to think I'm really trying to show how imperfect the process is, and that some of the learning is just through that, is again through like permission for it to be like when a student comes in and read like all of Save the Cat. I'm like, okay, but like what if only a tiny sliver of that works for you?
SPEAKER_03Hear me out. Don't save the cat. Don't save the cat at all, actually. Um I actually don't even know if that phrase comes from a literal saving of a cat in a movie. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00I think it does. I my recollection of I read it years and years ago. Um but yeah, I I think I I try to just model the permission to like try it a lot of different ways and do it.
SPEAKER_03Um it runs up against the the role of teaching or mentoring, but specifically teaching and like being paid, I'm paid, I'm faculty, I'm uh runs up against so my desire to be like permissive and open and free runs up against my perfectionism and desire to meet the expectations of the person in the room with me and make them happy. So I don't know, it was like a whole morass of all my deep psychological needs and issues. Just colliding all at once. A crucible that I could not survive. I'd like to read that essay someday. Um, are you still writing Sarah? I am, I am, and I've really been enjoying, speaking of like going back to an old mindset or way of doing things, I've really been enjoying writing YA again after my last couple books were middle grade. So really, I don't know, I'd say from like whenever I finished my last young adult novel, Goodbye from Nowhere, whenever I finished that, which I think was I'm gonna say like 2019 or something like that. Yeah, because that came out. Um whenever I finished that up until like a year or so ago, all I've done is middle grade. And that's just and I can do it, and I I'm glad I did those books, but that's not kind of where my heart is as a writer. And so I'm really enjoying writing that like and and specifically like older YA, like that 16, 17-year-old protagonist. And really enjoying that this book I'm working on is set in the 80s because one is like the books that made me want to be a writer and made me specifically drawn to YA were books I read in the 80s. They were probably written in the 70s and early 80s, like Robert Cormier and people like that. But um I didn't like I guess I didn't sign up to be a writer that had to deal with smartphones in plots. I I just Who among us data? I I just it's really hard. Like you have to acknowledge the technical, technological realities of the world you're writing about, but I find it kind of sad to just like reflect a world that I don't think is on a good path in that way, like to to reflect a world where people are communicating so much just via text, which goodbye from nowhere had a lot of texting in it, which was fine. That works for the characters great, like there's a lot of stuff going on with phones. I tried to use it in the plot, and same with Kira just for today, using it in the plot where Kira is following her mom's dot on Find My and just being like, mom's not mom's not where she's supposed to be, like what's going on. So trying to use it in plots, but also it's just so nice with this book to be completely free of smartphones, the internet, any of that, and just putting the characters in a much more raw dealing with the world uh more directly. The ways we deal with. Yeah, without like an intermediate. Yeah, yeah. The technology is this that's a perfect way to say it. Is this intermediary between us and the world and now in books, in a lot of ways, sometimes characters in the world? So yeah, I'm really enjoying that. And that just made me think of your book, which I finished and loved, and how um Sydney is living in a real one of the characters is living in this reality that's taking place basically on Instagram. And that's like coloring everything that she's doing in her adult life, and that's so interesting because the other character, the other there's a lot of characters, but the other kind of main present-day character, May, is not really engaging with technology and you know, is just not clued into it. And I think that's interesting too. So I think there are ways writers can use these things in interesting ways, but what I don't like is just reflecting a kind of bleak reality of how people aren't connecting because for me, that is what we talked about this a little bit last time. The real pleasure in writing is comes from the characters connecting. Yeah. And there's just more layers to like letting that happen between characters in a world where they're living through their screen. So anyway, I'm having a good time living in the past.
SPEAKER_00I love that. I also think it's easier, you know, when you say that, well, it's easier to do it for or it's more fun to write about technology when it is more like the point rather than like part of the texture of the world. It depresses it's I find it harder to write it when it's like, oh, now we just have the cell phone, but it's not critical or like a sort of thing you're commenting on, it just is. That seems more boring than you know, something like with my book, where it's critical, you know, you're investigating it more.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and you're and you're contrasting both the past and the present and the two, the way the two different characters do or do not negotiate with it. And it's also, I think texting is so. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love texting out. It is like my husband and I communicate like when he goes out of town. Sometimes people at work or my mom or whatever is like, Did you have you talked to Gordon? You know, I'm like, no, we just text the whole trip. We don't need to speak. Um No, I've like never been on the phone with my husband, like ever. So it's great, but at the same time, that's different because that's like your most intimate relationship. You're not like performing on text with your spouse. But I think in friendships or in early relationships, you are so that just you either have to acknowledge that somehow in the writing um or have them be texting in a more authentic but kind of unreal way. I don't know. I we just kind of absorbed it into writing the way we just kind of absorbed it into culture. Like, oh, I guess everyone does this now and we don't question it, and we'd have done the same thing with many, many of us, of course, naturally have just absorbed it into reality the way we've absorbed TVs and radios and space travel and you know, politics, whatever else. And it's just I don't like it.
SPEAKER_00Do you have the tick, or maybe you have your own tick, of um slamming the phone down? It comes up in my writing. It's like I can't, it's like a ghost of the past is there with me, and my copy editors have to do it all the time. It's so interesting. It's like picturing you with your iPhone just bam, smash it on the table. Yeah, for whatever reason, I like have not let go of that tick. It's it's um, I sort of like it almost like I it's like my pat. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03I do have characters hanging up there. Yeah. And I which I still think is okay, like metaphorically, you're hanging up, but I try to just say ended the call. I don't know. I've there was a scene recently for my current book that I'm working on where a character was trying to get a hold of their friend, and it was like I called and called, I c I called and called, all I ever got was busy signals, or it just rang like a hundred times, like, where were you? And that was just reality. Like, I mean, I remember in high school we had to like wander the streets sometimes looking for like, you know, we're just gonna have to go by Terry's house and pick her up because you know, I don't know, I don't want to go off on a huge tangent. But yes, I'm enjoying I'm enjoying the YA world and I'm enjoying writing about the 80s and um still still in need of a deep chunk of time to really focus on this, and I've been harboring my recurring fantasy of like selling everything and living by myself in an RV and having no responsibilities. But I also know that I like living in a home with more than one room, so I don't know. I'm in conflict. Um, I'm looking at our outline and it's Corey asks a secret question. I'm so nervous. I said I know now it's fun. I just recently edited the episode where we did the first secret question, and it was really so interesting and fun what came out.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, I was just listening to that and I was like, oh, we did we did it. Yeah, we had to go around a circuitous route to to land land in the same place. Um okay, so here is my question, and like yours, I'm wondering if it will um if I'll want to revise my answer. Yeah, yeah, um, or more of and it's I'm actually wait, what's my answer for it? I don't have one. I just came up with the questions and I didn't come up with my own answer. Um so my question is do you notice any relationship between the way the writing of a particular book feels and its reception? Is there anything do you have any sense of that while you're writing is a great writing process, then represented in a book that is received incredibly well, is a rocky writing process, like, oh, of course, here's here's now that bad review, or is it like totally unrelated and you have and there's no material connecting them and you're just like absolutely clueless on uh on whether or not those two things are related?
SPEAKER_03I would say on on the macro scale, they're definitely related. On a micro scale, not necessarily. So what I mean by that is I could write a scene in a book that feels like, oh, I struggle with this scene so much. It just feels so arduous, it feels so effortful, and that'll be a scene that people really like, you know, or or that'll be a quote they put on the reads. But on a macro level, like how did the overall writing process go and how was it reviewed critically and received by readers? Def definitely. Because really, yeah, I don't want to call out specific books necessarily and like plant a seed. But but there's been a a couple books that were just like had a very difficult process for myself and editorially that were not as well received, and then a couple that just felt like a pleasure to write that were well received, and I do think there's a connection there. But then there's another one I can think of that was like really hard to write and get it just where I wanted it, and it was an arduous editorial process because my editor was so incredibly thorough. This one I will call out the Lucy variations. Yeah. That one, I had that idea for that book for a long time, and it just never was fitting into the right container, like what I wanted to explore. And it took a lot of work and time to get it for it to be what I wanted it to be. And my editor, Julie Shina, was so incredibly meticulous. There were like a billion comments on the on the Word doc, and just very thorough. Because what was nice about Julie is she doesn't only say like what's not in working or what she doesn't. You know, feel as landing. But she's also like going like yes, or like ha ha, you know, like all the so a lot of the comments were like a real live live texture. Thorough is the word I'm looking for. So it was just it was. I remember sitting in a coffee shop in San Francisco because I was visiting my sister, like when we were doing kind of the final, final edits, and I was just like wanting to pull my hair out because I was like, God, she's so picky about just like noticing every repeated word, everything. But so in that way, like it was hard work, but I felt really pleased with how it came out. I was proud of it. It's still one of my favorite of my books. And it was well, it wasn't like the best-selling, but it was well reviewed and is a special book to me because I got into um what I always liked about Madeline Langell's young adult books, where there's a lot of relationships between teen characters and adults. And I don't think you see that as much in contemporary fiction. People get a little squeamish about it. And I just wanted to write about this, like yeah, like she's 17 and like she has this weird thing with her adult married piano teacher, and like it never, nothing ever like I don't know, like it just and then a lot of other things about like art and music and all that stuff and family. So I'm very happy with that book. It was well received, it was not easy to write, and it felt really difficult. Other than that book, I would say there is definitely a correspondence between well, I don't know, because Sweethearts, which was my second book, is still one of my re like my readers' favorites. If you look at my early career, that's like a reader favorite. And to me, in terms of the writing, the feeling of writing it and my judgment of the what's on the page, um, I feel like there's so much room for improvement in that book, or there's ways in which it wasn't quite what I wanted because I was just starting to work with an editor and like capitulating more. Um but people love it. Was it easy? Like were you in the zone with that one at all? Yeah, I was like having a nervous break. Yeah, classic second book.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03Um I don't know, it just seems like there's an inconsistent correlation. I guess I can't say like yes or no, it's depends on the book and the circumstance. But to be honest, books where there's been like an issue in the editorial process are ones that are not as well reviewed because that's interesting. It's just not it's just been bumpy the whole way, and it's the outcome is also bumpy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like maybe that that push pull is somehow evident in the And it's usually second books on a two-book contract, which I think we talked about maybe last time.
SPEAKER_03Except for Sweetheart, or was Sweetheart. No, you're right, except for Sweethearts. That was the second book on a two book. But after that, every second book is harder than the first.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Would you you feel like Sweethearts is your biggest reader favorite?
SPEAKER_03I'm actually I wouldn't that's well no I mean not I don't know now, but at the time I was so nervous about I have to live up to my first book, I have to live up to my first book that I just expected everyone to hate it. And so when they're like, I think I like this even better than Story of a Girl, I was like, oh god, good. And because that was my first book contract with like lower advances, I still get royalties on it. So it's still, it's still selling, which is nice. Yeah. Um anyway, how about you?
SPEAKER_00You know, I really don't think I am a good judge of like how a book is. I maybe what you said that when there is when there's like a major issue, but then when I think Yeah, I I don't know that I have a sense of what's what's gonna resonate. And certainly ease doesn't seem to be I guess clarity of vision is part of easy and I do think clarity of vision helps a lot. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I cannot say what I think. I think of Even Town, yeah, like Even Town had a real clarity of vision, and I think that's why that booked how to save a life for me was just like that doesn't surprise me.
SPEAKER_03You know what this is? This is great. That's such a crispy. Bam. Just every day was a joy. I was like, this is great, I'm loving it. My editor loved it, we had a great time together, and like well reviewed, sold well, all of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so when I think of sort of my I mean, hopefully my adult book will be the one that does the the best ever, but um, up until this point, probably Even Town has has done among the best, and that feels right again because yeah, that Clarity Vision and I the editor I was working with, we were so aligned and like in each other's brains and really um on the same page. So all of those things came together. But when I think of like one of my books that probably had one of the harder entries into the world, I I'm fine with just like naming it because it's almost 10 years old now. But The Careful Undressing of Love, which is an unusual one of my It's an unusual book. It is. It's a it's it's unusual. Um, it's one of my favorites of my own. Um, and that process was like beautiful. Like it was, I had this like expansive process before it ever sold where I was just like really exploring and um, you know, finding the characters in this really organic way. And then the editor I worked with, we had like a really exciting combative is not the right word at all. It wasn't combative, but like bing, bang, bang, bing, bang, bang, bing, bing, bang. But not we weren't aligned in the same way it was with Even Town, but we were very like talking all the time and thinking of all these new ideas, and and he added a lot of different like energy into the project. Um, and it I felt so sure about that book. I am really lucky to to generally get get well reviewed in like the the trade trades. Um that is probably like one of my only books that has gotten like a negative trade review. Um actually, I might have said this before. It was on the morning of my wedding.
SPEAKER_04Oh.
SPEAKER_00Um, and like why did I look? Why would I ever look? What a terrible idea. Other things to think about. I know. It's probably projection, right? Like you're sort of anxious about the wedding. You're like, what else can I try to feel something about to sort of deal with this moment? Um yeah, and so I've always I think a lot about that juxtaposition of like, how did that like beautiful process like not come across for for readers and resonate the way I was so sure. I mean, I'm I'm never sure. I wouldn't say that's a great word for me ever. But I I felt I was really hopeful about the word out.
SPEAKER_03And yeah. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00I I felt really good about it. Um, yeah, excited for people to read it and to like share in it with me. And yeah, I've just because I've had so much trouble with this current um middle grade, which again now I feel like I'm in a better zone with, I've been wondering, like, but does that even mean anything for where the book ends up? Right. Like I have no idea, I don't know, you know, um, does does the process impact, it impacts me as like a person, but does it impact where the book lands at all?
SPEAKER_03Um similar with Lucy variations, where I wanted to write about this very weird dynamic that little straw pole of every woman I know was like, yeah, I had a weird dynamic with like a coach, a teacher, an uncle, like whatever. Um my worst reviewed book has been goodbye from nowhere, because people are very uncomfortable that the cousins at the center of the story Yeah, like this guy kind of has a crush on his girl cousin. And I'm sorry, but that happens. And and it doesn't mean better in adult anything gross. Yeah, I mean, this is always like my dilemma when I'm thinking about a future adult project. Is like I there are certain topics that are gonna be people are not gonna be trade reviewers, school reviewers, all that stuff are not gonna be so squeamish about very nuanced dynamics. And again, I'm not I'm not like cousin marriage, first cousin marriage, cousin, no big deal. Not at all. I'm talking about emotional truth, you know? Yeah, yeah, totally. And totally it feels increasingly difficult sometimes in the children's publishing space to be allowed to have a kind of emotional truth. Um, and so I think where books where I struggle sometimes in books and then they don't come out as well received is because I'm in conflict with I'm not really allowed to like go to all the places I want to go in this category or with this house or this editor or with this advance, it's supposed to be more commercial, whatever. Um, so I'm f fighting that tension of like the book I really want it to be versus feeling a implicit, usually very rarely explicit pressure for it to be something else. And totally I don't know, I think that's another reason I'm enjoying what I'm working on now, is just I think the circumstance with this book and this contract and this house is gonna be more allowing of what I'm trying to do with this book. And there's no cousin sex in any of my books to be 100% clear. There's not even any touching.
SPEAKER_00I like everyone walking away from this podcast. Delete. Wow. Take those off the TBR.
SPEAKER_03Oh, great question.
SPEAKER_00I love that question. I I feel like we actually reached like a kind of semi-conclusion, like well, no, but I think like clarity of vision and commitment, like being able to fully commit. I think those two things maybe do lead to like a more positive response from readers.
SPEAKER_03Our next section is current events. We have to actually, yeah, we have a few hot topics. Um we do. Some of you, it's funny, some of yours I've never heard of, and probably some of mine you've never heard of. So this should be interesting.
SPEAKER_00Why not you start? Yeah, well, so I feel like it maybe it was last podcast through you were like, you'll be our threads correspondent.
SPEAKER_03Yes, and I can say I'm not on the social, like what writers are talking about. I don't go on Substack Notes anymore, and I haven't been on threads since when it launched, I was on it for like six months, and I was like, this is awful.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's not where I want to spend much of my time, but somehow I like in integrated that as a challenge that I needed to take on. And so I did spend some time on threads. Well, it also happened to coincide with um, and this is a a side note, but I am a person like in the bachelor world, and so thing a lot of things happened in the bachelor world. So, you know, it going online was coming very very naturally to me in these weeks. Um, so one of the things that came up as I was doing my investigative um threads reporting was a response to, I don't know if you saw I feel like you would like this article probably, the the New York magazine article about how much um people make. Did you have to like in general or specifically on Substack? No, there was the New York Mag article about like how much people make. Oh, okay. No jobs.
SPEAKER_03I haven't seen I think I probably saw it, and I'm always tempted to read those, and then I get depressed because I'm like, well, I'll just take my$32,000 and go home.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for playing. Great. Um so obviously that was like a very clickbaity um article. But one of the things that came to light in this article was one of the people's job descriptions. I I think it was part of a portfolio of sort of a couple of different writing type jobs. One of their jobs was writing a celebrity's substack for them.
SPEAKER_03Oh, like ghost writing a substack?
SPEAKER_00Yes, which was like a revelation on threads and I presume Substack as well, um, of people just like in absolute shock that this was a thing. Those people are naive.
SPEAKER_03Sorry, Corey, you are naive.
SPEAKER_00Not me. I yeah, I guess I felt naive. And I, you know what, it made me it's like depressing to me.
SPEAKER_03But celebrities, I mean, look at like celebrity children's books and stuff, they're oh sure. What part of you was surprised? This is not I don't want to turn this into shaming you for believing in human nature.
SPEAKER_00It's really turned me around on that. But I think it wasn't celebrities, I think it it's not just celebrity. Just high-profile influencer types, tech people, or that maybe are known in a more literary-ish space.
SPEAKER_03Like if you learned Elizabeth Gilbert, if her Substack was being written by someone else, you'd be like, wait a second, your whole brand is based on your own. You're far and authentic.
SPEAKER_00Yes. I think it was more that type of um revelation that there's people whose brand is like opening up and sharing and being vulnerable in this space, and actually like someone else is is writing those. Um, which yes, I mean, again, I'm sure it's even naive to be surprised by that.
SPEAKER_03There's nothing wrong with being naive.
SPEAKER_00Just I just want to say that. Oh, I own it. I'm fine, I'm good with it. But yeah, I guess it's like in general in this day and age, there's like a taking out of the joy of the thing. Uh you know a journey destination problem, which I'm sure is a tale as old as time, but like seems particularly um intense to me right now. That like there is a real like the journey has is gone. It's just all destination now.
SPEAKER_03And that is directly tied into money and uh as much as I can complain about capitalism, I also always say like it is becoming more and more expensive to exist on this planet unless you're have a lot of money. That has become our one safety net. Like the answer to everything is be rich. And so it's totally understandable that to me that if that's the challenge, is like I need to have food, clothing, and shelter, I need to have health care, I need to have a plan for when I'm old. Yeah. And I can't do all these pieces, so I'm gonna get an assistant or a ghostwriter or whatever to like help me accomplish this. That's my pragmatic, that's my pragmatic side. At the same time, I do think it fundamentally changes what it what I would say it means to like be a writer.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Or to write. 100%. Yeah. No, I think I could get on board with being the one writing the substack, ironically. Because again, I think I'd be well, I'd be on the journey. Like I I could just make that that my journey. Like that's there's something with that that sounds like a little bit interesting to me. So that it's the I feel bad for the celebrity, is really, I guess, where I'm landing.
SPEAKER_03I mean, feel bad is probably overstated. But yes. The funny thing is when I read, because my vision is not great, and even though I'm reading my reading glasses, when I read your notes under current events, what I saw was how much people in NYC make reading other people's Substacks? Like, like I was like, right. Well, I was like, this is gonna be about how Substack is just a big circle jerk of just like, I'm subscribing to you, you're subscribing to me. We're all like on each other's Patreons, and like you know, who's the actual audience? Is it just other writers who are also charging for their Substacks? That's what I thought it said. Um which is also depressing in a different way. It's very which and probably also a little true. Uh yes when it comes to the monetization aspects of it. For sure. For sure. Now, what's this? Um, what's the Lindy West discourse?
SPEAKER_00You know Lindy West. I know who that is, yeah. She has a new um, a new memoir out. I don't know if this has come across your your feeds, um, called Adult Braces. And it's about her marriage, which has become uh which has turned into like a monogamous two-person relationship into a thruple by way of, I believe, her husband sort of having a difficult relationship with some of the boundaries of their marriage. Uh, but then it led to, I think, again, I haven't read the book yet, um, just really deep dived on the discourse, um, led to this becoming like a polyamorous thruple. Anyway, this is like all that's going on on my threads. My threads is the algorithm got you. The algorithm is like, now you will only hear about Lindy West. Um, so that's just my my field reporting is that it's all Lindy West on threads at all times. But there is a good slate podcast, um, which actually this I'm a big slate podcast person, and this one had not come across my feed before the the abbreviation for in case you missed it. I C Y M I. Uh-huh. They did a job. Yeah. Thank you so much. I'm hip. Um they did a a breakdown of of sort of some of the some of the discourse that um was interesting. But really, there's just like rage on on threads around. Are they mad at her husband? Yeah, there's anger at her husband, and then there's sort of an ongoing conversation around like Lindy West taught me how to stand up to men like this, and now this is her husband, and sort of um that type of discourse and people standing up for Lindy West.
SPEAKER_03Maybe she's like great as we can be in a Did you say platonic or monogamous?
SPEAKER_00She was originally in a monogamous and what is it now? What I'm asking. Has she been freed from having sex?
SPEAKER_04Is she the celibate? Is she the celibate third corner of a thruple?
SPEAKER_03And to which I say, great. And as long as they're doing the chores.
SPEAKER_00I I I I think, unfortunately or fortunately, I guess, depending on who you are, um, and no, I think it's more sex now. I think everyone's involved. Again, I have not read the book, so you know, take with a grain of salt. But it's uh it's everyone is now involved um together. Um and yeah, I guess he has become sort of like a villain of this story. And possibly for good reason. Again, I have not read the book yet. Um, but it's just been interesting to see such a strong response, intense response to a memoir by like a not that Lindy West is niche. I mean, she's huge, but like in a certain way. She's not gonna felt like she's niche to me in that like she has a lot of meaning to me. If people haven't read her take down of love, actually, I think it's like one of the funniest pieces of writing on the city.
SPEAKER_03And I'm all on board with any and every takedown of love, actually.
SPEAKER_00Sarah, if you have not read, I think it's called Shit Actually.
SPEAKER_03I think I did, I think I did read that, and I was like, yes, 100% to all this. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But anyway, it's funny to see her be like the the center of sort of very heated conversation right now, you know, 15 years after sort of Jezebel's heyday.
SPEAKER_03And you have to admit, kind of a great like she and her publishers have to know going into it, this is gonna be an amazing hook for discourse. Oh, and that's always great for books.
SPEAKER_00I can't wait to listen. I have the audiobook all queued up. I am very, very excited to listen.
SPEAKER_03Interesting. I'm in a different world over here.
SPEAKER_00Although less threpples.
SPEAKER_03What has overlapped is the Bachelorette issue because there's a I'm in Utah and the Bachelorette season that got withdrawn was the star of Secret Lives of Mormon Housewives or whatever that's called. So so that's been in the local news a lot too. Um other than that, I have no opinions and I've never seen The Bachelorette, and this is where you and I diverge in a very dramatic way. Me and most of my friends, to be fair. I feel like just in publishing world, we talked a little bit about this in our Slack group that we have with other people that dial, which was an imprint of Random House, um, closed. And I they they published so many of I just remember when I was in high school in the eighties reading books off the spinning rack in the library, a lot of it was dial and also like bantam, double day, you know, that whole world. And so dial was an imprint that closed and a bunch of people got laid off and then other people got absorbed into other imprints. And this happens with some frequency now. And I don't really have anything more to say about that, except it does connect a little bit to something I just came across today. So this is very new. I have not done a deep dive. I've done a very shallow dive. But um Hashette, uh, which owns Little Brown, your publisher, and my publisher from some of my books, um, canceled like quote unquote an AI novel. And the sort of short version of what happened was a UK side of Hashette acquired a self-published book and was getting ready to do a US version. And something happened. There were some accusations of like, oh, this author used generative AI or like this is AI slop or whatever the accusation was. And so Hashette US declined to publish it, and then the Hashette UK like withdrew it or or stopped supporting it, whatever. But my feeling about this is not so much about that, it's about a couple things. So I'm getting this from um a newsletter called Countercraft, who kind of just did a summary of everything that's going on, and uh the author of this newsletter is Lincoln Michelle or Michael, I'm I'm not sure how to pronounce, but they kind of give a summary of what happened, and then then there's this part that I felt needed to be shared, which is many may wonder how a book this poorly written and also probably AI generated, again, there were rumors and viral videos about how bad this book was, could have gone through the vetting process and layers of gatekeepers and publishing. Well, it probably didn't. It was self-pubbed and seemingly sold without an agent. When a US publisher acquires an already published book, it is rare to do much editing. So the question is how much editing did Heshet UK do? I have no inside knowledge in this case. My suspicion is not much editing was done. Probably a copy edit and proofs for typos. Perhaps nothing more. Again, maybe I'm wrong, but it seems hard to believe a book with this many issues was published with a rigorous vetting process. This is not to say there aren't many great self-pub books. There are, and this is the part that really makes me have feelings, but big publishing is a business, and many publishers have been grabbing bad self-pub books and fanfics because they were selling. The incentive in such cases is to take over the sales as quickly as possible, or else you risk the book's customers running out by the time your edition hits the marketplace. This scandal shows the risks to that approach. And um, I feel this so strongly when it's in juxtaposition, especially to oh, like a legendary imprint like dial closing. Um I I just think about this author. Uh, I feel like the name of the book was The Shy Girl or something like that. Yes.
SPEAKER_00I think that's right.
SPEAKER_03And what kind of grinds me is the publisher using this very lofty language. I'm trying to find the quote, what the hashtag quote was, or the press release. Um Hashette remains committed to protecting original creative expression and storytelling, a Hashette spokeswoman said. She added that Hashette requires all submissions to be original to the authors and asks authors to disclose to the company whether they are using AI during the writing process. Um, and I'm not picking on Hashet. This is every publisher could say this, uh, remaining committed to protecting original creative expression. And I think I feel like they don't put their money where their mouths are, all of these publishers. It's a little bit like I get that the issue here was, you know, this author like signed a contract, probably, that said this is my work. I didn't use AI. And then the publisher feels like they had some evidence that that was not true. But how they're determining that a lot of the times is they're using AI publishers are using AI tools to ascertain if something was created by AI. Okay. Um yeah, so there's this okay, so first uh they uh the AIs take the um work of writers, the human written material to create the large language model and the patterns and everything that it uses. And so the pattern recognition is based on human created work. And then you're using that tool to uh to put books through and say, is there any AI in this? And then and then the publisher's coming forward with some big confidence statement about like we're supporting human work, blah, blah, blah. And so it just always seems like with everything else in this business, everyone manages to profit, you know, make money, get paid a salary, get benefits, whatever, except for the author. And this kind of thing always like crashes down. I'm not defending this author. I have no idea about the backstory of this book or anything. No idea. But I do know that what I don't like is this idea that like an international publishing conglomerate is some they're doing some higher moral good in the world relative to like the individual author sitting at home trying to get work done, maybe bouncing ideas off a robot. Like, does the publisher have a company-wide ban on using AI to manage their email workflow or help create publicity materials or uh you know, social media posts and and refined press releases? Like, I guarantee you they do not because every and I know you're pretty removed from this world. Um But I guarantee you everyone like robots, every corporation in the world is fully integrating generative AI tools in workflows, processes. So again, this all comes crashing down on this one author when we're still so unclear in the publishing world about like what what are the rules? What when if you sign a contract saying I did not use AI, what does that mean? Like if I use AI to here's something I have done, create a chart of relative. So care put in character, this character was born this year, this character was born that that year, this character is born this year, this month, and this year. Please make a chart of their relative ages over this set of years, just so I can quickly reference, like, because this is always my notes when I'm writing a book, always I always have a scratch pad with me doing like math, just tiny addition and subtraction that I get so confused. So, okay, make me this chart. So, oh no, like I I touched generative AI because that is still considered generative AI, even though it's just creating a a chart based on some data that I gave it. I don't know. I I I guess I can't say it better than I already did, which is the idea that that these international conglomerates that are like shuttering imprints, laying people off, putting out bad books because they make money, now they're gonna take a moral high ground uh on this very thin slice of this issue and talk about protecting human creativity when authors aren't really like paid enough to flourish and don't get a big enough piece of the pie for the work they do do do do so often.
SPEAKER_00Well, and also like what what my mind's going in like 75 directions because this is such an area that's that's hard for me, but that even like the the the AI they are using is taking jobs away too. Like that they're cre that I'm all for protecting like human creativity, obviously. I think that goes without saying I'm very anti-AI. Like I I'm you know, I've my eight-year-old has used more AI than I have um in school. But so I'm very for protecting, you know, I'm I'm like when I saw that, of course, like like everyone or a lot of people, I was like, Yay, okay, great. Like the publishers are protecting human creativity. But I think where my sort of where the where you talking about this just made like a little switch in my head go off, was like, ooh, I was all like thinking about them protecting me. Um, but as you said, if they're using AI for all these other things, like that's not protecting the livelihood of all the people that have been working at the publisher um doing all these other things. And that disturbs me. I know that's not quite the part that was like hitting hitting at you the most, but like that part does disturb me. Like if you know that we can't use the AI, great, I'm fine with that. But we know can you not use you not use the.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I'm not I'm not saying I have any firsthand knowledge that they do, but I'm I'm in the I'm in the business outside of our little bubble. Everyone is everyone, it is fully integrated into business processes, whether that's through knowledgeably typing something into a AI assistant to get information, or just in the background managing workflows, writing the suggested emails, you know, uh all of that stuff. And so yeah, if you want to say, okay, we have a company-wide ban on using this because we're protecting all the jobs, yeah, but but they're not gonna do that. And then the other the other like little note on this was just it does feel like it's always women's books that are getting canceled. Like back in the teen in the 20 teens, whenever there was like a dust up on Twitter about con a content in book and then a book getting canceled. Yeah, it was usually or I mean I can't well, I can think of one man, but it wasn't about the content of the book. It was about behavior off. I can think of a couple men where behavior personal behavior got their books canceled. But I'm talking about like content of a book. Because I was just thinking about like James Fry, who has somehow managed to make a very lucrative career out of always being at the center of these controversies. He recently got like a Vanity Fair feature profile, and it was about like is he using AI or not? You know, so I think he said he was.
SPEAKER_00Wasn't the profile like exactly AI wrote my book, essentially.
SPEAKER_03So what it comes down to is like I'm always for the working people. Yeah, I am for the working class, and many of us writers are economically in that class and kind of at the bottom of the hill that the shit rolls down upon. And, you know, for working women in particular. Again, not defending this author, not saying her book was good or bad. I have no idea, and I don't even care enough to try and find out. But again, like thinking about discourse, the discourse that happens and like the who the who takes the fall. Yeah, who takes the fall? And um is this another like litmus test of purity that's gonna just continually make the experience of being a writer worse in some way?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, those two seem to backfire. All of us that have been uh, you know, on social media for all these years. Like, yeah, that that doesn't ever seem to end well, the the purity litmus tests.
SPEAKER_02Nope.
SPEAKER_00Well, that was cheery. Um should we talk about margin notes? Yeah, let's do it. What are you uh what are you consuming reading?
SPEAKER_03Well, like I said, I finished your book and I loved it, and I thought the ending was just perfect. And like I told you, it was one of those endings that I feel all novel endings should be something you didn't exactly see coming, but but is but is inevitable. Like it's unpredictable, but inevitable. And uh just really enjoyed that. Congratulations on a on a great book. And by the time this comes out, it will be released, so everyone can go get Mothers and Other Strangers. Enjoyed that, and then and then now I get to pick the next novel I'm gonna read because I am an incredibly slow reader, incredibly slow. Always have been? Um, when I was a child, like eight to twelve years old, I was a fairly voracious reader. And I would say in the 90s, like before the internet, I I could I could chow down a lot of like mass market paper paperbacks pretty quickly. But when I'm trying to always have been slow when I'm reading books where I wanna like read every sentence, you know? And when I read a novel, that's what I want from a novel. If I'm not reading like something that's just gonna scratch an itch for tropes or whatever, if I'm reading like a novel, I I don't want to use the word literary because I think that's so fraught with so many things, but when I'm reading like a non-commercial human-written novel, I want to read every sentence and like slowly, you know. So I'm slow, um, I'm also like time limited and attention span limited. I kind of can't read like at night because my brain's just done. So the reading time, my husband and I try to read like an hour before dinner. So that's like it, you know. So anyway, I'm excited to pick my next novel from my massive TBR pile.
SPEAKER_00Just massive main contenders.
SPEAKER_03I don't even know. But but now you've given me, I think I I think I want to read The Hypocrite, which we talked about two ago, even though it's not fair to the books that have been on my pile since like 2019, but that's life. Oh, I I really feel like that one. I think I I think that's what I want to read. For you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Oh, good. Oh, I'm excited to hear what you think of it.
SPEAKER_03And then a couple things. I watched this movie that came out a couple years ago called The Out Run with Sorcia Ronin. Did you see that? Oh, I love her. No, but I love I love Sertia Ronan. This is uh a very quiet movie. It's somewhat shapeless, it requires patience to watch, but for me it was so rewarding. It's really a character study. It's very difficult to write about alcoholism and addiction, as you know. It's so difficult. I feel this way about writing about religion too, because it's a all those things, or I should say the 12-step recovery model. I know there are other models. So let's say the 12-step recovery model is a kind of religion, and it is based on a liturgy, which is repeated words and phrases, and we come here, we say these words together. And so it's very hard to write a recovery story or a faith story without sounding cliched because it is based on cliches, and the repeated words and phrases are part of what makes it work for the people for whom it works. And so this movie has that, you know, her character is an alcoholic, uh, she's returning to her small hometown in Scotland to try and like get her life together. But it's mostly just her. Like, there's maybe one scene in a meeting and it's very short. It's mostly just her and her life. And what I especially loved about it was how it showed how like nature and music and solitude were like the pillars of her kind of coming back to herself. And I just related to that because I feel like those are always the three things that are playing a big role in whenever I like have a time where I feel apart from myself and I'm trying to come back to myself. Yeah, it's solitude, nature music. Um, and this movie just did a beautiful job showing that. And Sergio Ronan is probably the best in her generation, just the absolute best. So good in this. I also watched Man on the Run, which was a documentary about Paul McCartney, his solo career, and it was interesting. I always enjoy documentaries about people in long-standing creative careers. I don't care if I like their work or not, or I know their work or not. I always enjoy them. There's always something familiar and something to take away. And I do like Paul McCartney and I do like wings. Um I just had assumed all this time that like he he was a beetle. It's easy to just like become solo and become wings and become solo again, and like everyone was along for the ride. No. Really, they really weren't. And it took several albums before he kind of found his voice as a solo artist. And and it doesn't go past like it's kind of like the height of wings. It feels like it needs a sequel because it doesn't go into the 80s and 90s so much, like early 80s, but it doesn't go into the solo stuff he did in the 80s and 90s that I sort of grew up with on the radio, like Ebony and Ivory or The Girl Is Mine, things like that. So it's more focused on wings and also his it's about a creative marriage, his marriage to Linda McCartney. That's cool. Um, and creative friendships, um, and how his friendship with John Lennon was fractured at this point because Lennon would come out and say uncomplimentary things about Paul's solo work, which is like not cool. But then then like walked it back, or like when when McCartney did have an album he liked, he'd say, like, this is a really good one. And it had some interviews with Sean Lennon, one of John Lennon's sons, yeah. Talking about what a fan Sean Lennon is of McCartney's solo work. So anyway, it was really interesting. Interesting. That is on Prime, I think, which I was trying to quickly watch because I'm about to cancel my I'm not can't I'm not canceling Amazon Prime. I'm not that good of a person. There's just there's like certain medications, even that I get from Amazon with a huge discount. So you caught me. I used AI to make a chart and I have Amazon Prime. But what I'm not gonna have anymore because the price went up and I'm not gonna pay for it, is the commercial free version of it. Um so I watched this real quickly before commercials came back into my account.
SPEAKER_00Did you ever watch the um like the Beatles band session? Yes. Yes, that came out a few years ago. Yeah, I very good. Watched some of that, and then my my husband sort of lost steam, and it's the sort of thing I need another person to watch me, so I never finished it. But I really like I was in I'm I'm a big Beatles person, and so I was very all in on that. It was a lot though, you have to admit. Oh, it was a lot, it was a lot, but it was such a like it was so relationship focused. Yes, you know, like there was something you're just sort of waiting for like the those friction moments, and um, there was something very satisfying about that, about waiting to see like how they all interacted moment to moment. But yes, I mean I I get it. He, you know, I respect that he needed to step away and move on with you might be able, I mean, does he like the Beatles? He does, yeah.
SPEAKER_03You might be able to get him on board for this because it's just two hours, one and two.
SPEAKER_00It just sounds more possible.
SPEAKER_03It's not 18 hours of rehearsal footage.
SPEAKER_00No, and he's a he's a documentary person, so I'm sure I can get him um on board with it.
SPEAKER_03Man on the Run. I love that. How about you? What have you been watching, reading, listening to?
SPEAKER_00So I just finished um a nonfiction book called A Marriage at Sea. I don't know if you've heard of this.
SPEAKER_03Sounds familiar.
SPEAKER_00It was great. Not my usual fair. I I do memoirs, but like I don't do a ton of other nonfiction. And this one was about a British couple in the city. On a cruise.
SPEAKER_03Here let me guess just based on the title.
SPEAKER_00Okay, great.
SPEAKER_03Was it a couple that went on a cruise and decided to get divorced while they were on a cruise? No, but I would read that.
SPEAKER_00That sounds great. That's what it should have been. I thought that is I'll do that as a novel, though. That sounds fantastic. And actually, one of my best friends is um a cruise performer. Um, so I could guess a lot of maybe this is my next great. You've just given me a lot of new ideas. No, this is a UK couple in like maybe the 70s or so, um, who wanted to kind of leave their life behind and they bought a yacht to sail around the world with their life behind. I didn't hear about this. And it um, you know, it sunk and they survived for four months on uh a life raft together. And oh my god, it was and again, I'm not a huge survival story person. I mean, like catch it, but that's a long time ago. Um, it was very visceral. Um, there's a lot of things they have to do to survive um in that circumstance. Um, but she is such a force, and it's very much like about their marriage. It is about their marriage for sure. Like I really appreciated that that it's a survival story, but also a story of like how these two people like even ended up together um and got to this place, and also what their life after like, how that happened and what that looked like. But it's she is like a force, she is a really cool, real life character, and yeah, it's just a very readable nonfiction, a very interesting, I like to. be outside of my zone a little bit sometimes. And then the other thing I read this week, um it's been a a reading week more than anything. I've read a couple other things actually, but the other one I was going to mention here, which is not um an under the radar book by any stretch of the imagination, um, Heart the Lover by Lily King, which everyone is reading. And for really good reason in my opinion.
SPEAKER_03I still have not read a a Lily King. Oh really? I've had like if you look at you know how on Libby you can look at your like loan history. Whenever I add one of her books, it's like you checked out this book in 2018. You checked this out in 2019. You checked this out in 2019 like Sarah like read this book.
SPEAKER_00Read them. So she actually taught at my high school for a short period of time while I was there. So I have like a you know a sort of personal like infatuation is too strong word, but a real interest in what she's up to and um I very well remember reading her first novel when she was teaching there um called The Pleasing Hour, which I I think is beautiful. It's from like 99. And it was great. But um man Heart the Lover is fantastic. It's short it's fast it's um sold small it's it's intimate and small and um really beautiful I say it I read like half of it just last night I just kind of couldn't put it down. But the other thing I was going to mention about it is like I just have an irresistible need to be part of the Zeitgeist. I just I love the Zeitgeist and so I you know I I'm not a huge super commercial fiction reader but if there's like a literary um book that's doing everyone's buzzing about or um you know I I need to I need to be involved. So I was very happy to finally join the Zeitgeist on on Heart the Lover. And it really you I you would love I actually think you would love her writing in general I know that I would yeah it's I keep getting the books. Of course she's she's um she doesn't make too much of stuff it's um direct in a way that reminds me a lot of of your of your work um yeah so I uh but man this one was certainly one of her best um yeah for sure and the other the last thing I consumed in the um capitalism sense was I went to I was invited to be a literary table host at the Poets and Writers gala this week. Oh right really fun um but required clothing for the gala and I notice your nails look great. I mean I know this is a podcast and no one can see your nails but they're kind of like a deep like uh uh cabernet greenish yeah color beautiful exactly thank you and I I love clothes I'm like a clothes and aesthetics um person and style person but not I don't go to a lot of fancy galas um or any and it was a particularly tricky needle to thread because it actually was listed as business attire but then you look at pictures of people at it and some of them are in like ball gowns and you're like so this could be anything or like creative black tie. No God and one of my you know one of my kind of things is like this would be like the little black dress event except like I'm just really not a little black dress person. Like that's not how I feel like myself.
SPEAKER_03I feel like I tried for a long time to wear the things you're supposed to wear to the things and I didn't ever feel like myself and then I can't perform yeah yeah yeah you're just thinking the whole time like I'm in a costume.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah I'm pretending to be a grown-up how weird um but anyway I spent it was really the what if it took hours out of my life to like try on 10,000 outfits and um and sort of torture myself into that um and finally land on something that captured the essence of a little black dress without being without being a little black dress. What's going on in the next couple weeks for you? So my book comes out in a week.
SPEAKER_03So I mean not for people you know we're no not in the not for future listeners it's out already. But yes in this moment it's coming out next week. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Exactly um so I'm just trying to bring like be in the right headspace for that for all that's gonna entail um and sometimes I think that means like really focusing on the writing so I don't sort of lose myself in the promotion and then sometimes I think that means like taking time to reset. But also trying to stay on top of all the the launch stuff. So yeah it's like a balance a balanced moment and I trying to I just really want to be my best in my best place for this moment and um trying to really be clear on what that means.
SPEAKER_03Well and thinking back to the Corey on her wedding day who read a trade review on her wedding day how are you going to handle reviews this time?
SPEAKER_00You know I've been lucky with what's come out so far. Yeah I mean trade reviews I guess are already yeah trade reviews have been great. Um I was looking at Goodreads um because it was going well over there and then I like caught a glimpse of a couple that didn't look so good and I was like okay I think that's the I I touched it, I did the thing and now I think I think I can check out of that. I'm actually pretty good once I've once you've gotten the affirmation that you made. Oh I got the affirmation and then I got the dark side and you're like okay well I've done I've gotten all I can get from that place. That's not worth the risk anymore. Yeah I'm hoping to really take in you know I had a um my advisor in grad school was um Patricia McCormick whose um work I love and her big advice when I was in graduate school is to like celebrate everything. So I'm trying I think I want to be in a place of really trying to take in like everything good that happens and just not engage with things that are not good. But I I'm hoping I can really like take in the exciting exciting parts.
SPEAKER_03It's hard.
SPEAKER_00But but stay on top but staying on top of the writing too I really want to stay on top of the writing because I did just set in my scrivener one of my favorite little scrivener tools is the the deadline setting.
SPEAKER_03Where it's where it's like you need to write this much a day to like it's very satisfying. My favorite um not not that the process can be really broken down in that way but it does help you get things done then you have something to work with.
SPEAKER_00Yeah and you just you get a sense of what your work needs workload needs to be. So I set my deadlines I sort of messed around with what seemed doable and I got June for a middle grade that needs to be a good draft and October for the adult which that does not for me have to be a good draft. That can be an anything kind of draft. And you're still correct me if I'm wrong you still have your two young children correct I do yeah they're still hanging around you know and actually they are of course on break um when like the second my book comes out and I go on tour um is right when their spring break starts. So that is perfect. But yeah I'm hoping to balance that too yeah yeah I find celebration difficult.
SPEAKER_03It's hard it's hard to know what to feel it's really hard. Yep it's easy to know what to feel when when thing bad things are happening but when good things are happening you're like I don't know what emotion what emotion I'm supposed to be having right now.
SPEAKER_00Yes. With it being um you know hopefully big at the Barnes and nobles I am hoping on Tuesdays I pick my older daughter up early from school and I'm hoping maybe I'll take her to like the local Barnes and Nobles oh and the sea and I'm hoping maybe there'll be sign signage of the city that would be fun. So that would be really fun because she would be able to like if I'm unable to like access it like she's gonna think that's really cool and then I think yeah I mean start using your children to have your emotions parenting 101 from what I understand. Start them early that's their job. Yeah what about you? What are you uh looking at at the weeks ahead and we'll have a few weeks before we record this time yes yeah we have a we're gonna have a little gap so as I mentioned March has been and is just a very busy month at my day job.
SPEAKER_03Yeah but April May June is is a slower time at my day job and it is time to get this book done and like you have a good and complete draft to turn in uh I'd say like by the end of June.
SPEAKER_00Oh so we're on the same timeline timeline there.
SPEAKER_03Great. So I'm I'm looking forward to that I'm also super proud of myself for getting my taxes done back in February. In February that is the earliest I've ever done it. And so I've never been at this time of year right now and not been losing my mind. You can do whatever you want to do anything I want. And I am I'm going to I'm taking a little trip uh to Vegas oh mid-April meeting a friend there and um looking forward to that but also hoping to it's like a working working trip a little bit like like a ri writing retreat working but we're both working while we're on this trip.
SPEAKER_00Fun.
SPEAKER_03What is what are the main draws of being in Vegas or is it just a place you can meet my friend yeah my friend is in LA and I'm in Utah and so it's kind of a halfway like it's about five hours from Salt Lake um so it'll be fun to get in my car and drive for more than 20 minutes because I do I do like a good road trip. And yeah I don't know but we've also we've got this aging parent stuff going on that just seems like any minute everything's gonna have to just stop and have be dealt with so that's just gonna be on the radar from here on out I think are you finding yourself able to like live with that uncertain feeling or is it are you like in an anxiety high alert place I'm not I'm not anx anxious in that way. The only thing is because of living in a different state from all our parents it's just like logistically challenging if the moment comes uh because it's getting there and like cat sitter and just all that a cat sitter who can do three eye drops a day and give snuggles and play with the string like it's a lot to ask of a cat sitter. Um but yeah I'm just I'm looking forward to a season of hard work on things I want to be working on. Whereas the last couple months have been hard work at my day job which I love my day job but I don't care about it. Yeah. And I and I mean that in the best possible way. Yes it's a it's a it takes place in those hours and that's exactly I get paid to do that thing in those hours and then when I leave there I do not contemplate it in any way shape or form. The perfect day job. Well it's been so weird to see you. So yeah we are gonna have uh we're gonna have a gap so we'll have like this is the third so we'll have three on schedule or four. Four yeah four we'll have four on schedule then we're gonna have like a little gap so between this episode and the next one there's gonna be more of a gap we're not gonna try and make ourselves exhausted by doing everything. No. So there'll be a gap and then we'll be back with episode five after this little gap and it's been great to talk to you. I've been looking forward to this when I when there was a possibility of like I was going to have to go to work I was just like I need I need to talk to Corey and then I also need to have the rest of the day to like just be in this mode of like I'm a writer before I have to go be an employee again tomorrow.
SPEAKER_00I always forget this is the beginning of your day. I know like I'm in I know I'm in like I'm like okay it's a rush now to get to the school pickup for the girls but you're just you're just starting the whole whole world well I wouldn't I wouldn't say that I mean it is after 12 p.m noon but but it is I do have lots of time left.
SPEAKER_03So good to see you. We'll see you back here. Oh uh you can find out more about me at sarazar.com and there's links to everything there subscribe to my newsletter I have a goal I have like a goal be and this goal came of I was filling out so my next book is with a new publisher and then every and as you know every time you start with a new publisher you fill out this whole questionnaire and you don't know is this information ever going to be used? I don't know but I have to fill this out. Makes you question your whole life it's like who am I actually I don't know. So yeah it was like this question like do you have a newsletter? Like yes and it was like how many subscribers do you have and the the gaps were like the the ranges were like zero to five thousand oh god and so I have like 900 which I felt like was great. That's great. I don't know how many people read it but I have 900 that's huge. And now my goal is to have 5,000 just so I can be like jump into the next bracket. So I like that subscribe to my newsletter it's not spammy. I do it like quarterly and I try and make it interesting and just have like kind of like the podcast like what I'm working on my writing what's going on in life what recommendations do I have any work I have that's new that's it. So if you go to my website and you click on like books the books section there's that's where probably I should call that newsletter. Maybe it says books I don't know you can find my newsletter just you can do it. Where can people find out more about you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah you can find me at my website coriandy.com uh or my sub stack um and of course if you could take a moment to order Mothers and Other Strangers for yourself or a friend. Or for your local library like or for your local library yeah check in with your library see if they have it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah see if they have it and if they if they have put it on hold check it out because uh you know none of us are in a place where we can afford to buy every single book that we want to read. But if you have a library system it does circulation does matter so check out the books by the people you like even if you have their books maybe once in a while just hey just just check it out keep it at home for a few weeks return it that actually matters and does lead to more future like them always continuing to buy the backlist so yeah love your library and love your I'm a big library read 80% of my reading is library so I would love you all to to just ask your library if they're carrying it. And I and I know they are so check it out. Okay great to see you have a great tour and I'll see you back here in a few weeks.
SPEAKER_00Sounds good can't wait by the
