5. A Reader Walks Into a Hair Salon...

Discussed in this episode: How the answer is in the work, Colson Whitehead, Lena Dunham, and summer camp. Also, we think we've successfully enabled Buzzsprout "fan mail," so if you ever have a response to our questions to the universe and listeners, click that to send us a message!

Errata: 

• Sara says Altan when she meant Alyan
• Not really an error but we talked quiiiite a bit about Famesick and edited some out, but if it's still too long use the Chapters feature to escape! First time doing chapters and I hope it is showing on your podcast app! If not, the Famesick discussion runs from 47:46 - 1:08:34.

Some Margin Notes:

• Shout Her Lovely Name by Natalie Serber
• Midwives by Chris Bohjalian
• Pluribus on Apple TV
• I'll Tell You When I'm Home by Hala Alyan
• The Truth and Tragedy of Moriah Wilson on Netflix
• Famesick by Lena Dunham 

More about Sara Zarr

More about Corey Ann Haydu

Theme music: Creative Commons Deep Friendship by Lobo Loco is licensed under CC BY-NC-SA 4.0

Transcript

Intro & Check-in

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Hi, this is Sarah Czar, and I write novels. Hi, this is Corianne Haydu, and I write uh for children and young adults and adults as well.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

And those also are all novels, I guess. I don't know why I say novels. I think because identity.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

That's your that's I like it. I like that we say it differently, even though we do the same thing ultimately.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

I do, and I do, I feel like if people say, Oh, what do you do? Um, especially back before I had a day job. I learned that saying I'm a writer was like opened up too many questions.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

Yes, I find that as well.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

So I say it could mean I'm a novelist, and then people kind of like they have to think for a minute about what is a novel, and they might not know, and that's okay. That's great. And it then I can say, What do you do?

SPEAKER_02 0:57

And writer, yeah. Writer just I know it could because it really get too excited. And I just think a lot of things are being a writer, like that that exists outside of books people buy. Like that's in a lot of different fields.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Especially now. It's like Yes. I'm a writer too. I post every day on Facebook.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Uh now I sound like a freaking elitist.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

No, I think, but there's, you know, there's grant writers. There's like writing is broad.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Yes. There's journalism. Yes. There's uh people with recipe Instagrams.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Yes, the whole range. I want them to know I make up stories. I write made-up things. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Exactly. And long form. Yes, long form. Just to prove how smart and patient and hardworking I am. Exactly. Speaking of writing. Yeah, Sarah, are you are you still writing? I am. I am still writing. I've been working on a few things. Of course, I'm working on my contracted young adult novel. Good job.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Good job working on that contracted work.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

I'm finding actually thinking in terms of like four to six hundred words a day during the work week is great. It's doable, it does not stress me out, and it accumulates. Yes, I like that number too. There, there's there's a bunch of writers I can think of who talk about five words a day being their I mean five words. Oh, I was thinking about doable. Absolutely. Five hundred words a day being their routine. And I like that a lot. And it you can still let's let's for the listener, so they don't have to do the math, let's just do quick math. Okay. By which I mean open up the calculator on my iPhone. Like how many 500 a word days until there's a novel. Let's say you do, let's say you do it five days a week. Seems reasonable. So that's 2,500 a week. So that's five million a month. That can't be right. Wait, what? I'm telling you, math is not for me. For that's$10,000 a month. So you could basically write a draft every six months. That's it. And if you're fast at revising, you could yeah, that's a book a year, no problem. Yeah. So it's just that doable. And then the other thing that was fun that I did this last week, so I went on a semi work, work trip, part work, part pleasure. I I met up with my agent, yeah, in Las Vegas because it's sort of a halfway point between where he where he lives and I live, and also he was on his way somewhere that was gonna make it even more convenient for him. And so we were like working during the day and partying at night, hitting the slide. Yeah, by partying, I mean playing a little roulette till 10 p.m. and then going straight to bed. Um but while what was fun was while we were there, uh just in our different rooms but on the same floor, I sent him a couple of packages for like new book ideas. So I don't know how you do it with your agent, but I've been with mine long enough where I I'm not trying to put together like a submission ready proposal every time I have an idea that I want to share with him. And I but I also don't just like blurt out every single idea I have to him. There's sort of a medium place that I like to be where I've thought about it for a long time and I've written like anywhere from five to fifty thousand words on it, uh, and then just kind of put together the first few chapters and just like a one or two page pitch or summary of like how I imagine it would be. So I did that with a couple of ideas. One's like a brand new idea. Oh, that even though it's brand new, the story idea will probably be outdated by the time it could be published. So I don't know about that one. Yeah, I'm full of ideas like that. And then one that I've been working on for a long time that he's seen versions of before where like it was a YA book and then and then it was like an adult book, but only in a from like a 17-year-old's point of view. Now it's like an adult book with multiple points of view, and I finally figured out what shape to give it. So anyway, sent that. So that was just fun because it was almost like it was almost almost like physically handing him printed pages, except I was just emailing it from down the hall while I was looking out at the uh I wasn't a part of the strip where yes, you're looking out and you can see the New York, New York skyline, but you can also see a giant Ross. Oh so very glamorous. Um, so that was fun. Yeah. That's cool.

SPEAKER_02 6:24

And then did you get immediate did you get immediate feedback on that?

SPEAKER_01 6:27

No.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

Okay. He's like, I won't be able to look at this for a little bit, but shoot. So you didn't you didn't like short circuit the system, like find a way to you didn't find a loophole.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

No, I was hoping maybe he'd just like immediately just drop everything. Yeah, the dream. Immediately because of just how much money I'm making him. Immediately read everything and be like, don't change a thing. I'm sending this to my top five editors right now, and we'll have a book deal by the time you're driving back to Salt Lake City. That sounds great. Yeah. Uh no, just I'll just be waiting like all the rest of the the standard, the standard procedure. All right. Standard operating procedure. Yeah, so that was fun. I I covet any opportunity now to really feel like a writer in the way I did before I had to go back to having a day job. So I just really enjoyed being in a hotel room, brought back memories. I love that. Because I was so fortunate to be publishing in that era when I was going on book tours and like going to all the conferences and staying in all these hotels that other people were paying for. I loved it and I miss it. It's a great feeling. That was fun. And especially miss having my tab completely covered because I did the stupid thing where I haven't been at a hotel in a long time. Especially that kind of a big, big hotel. And my agent was, he helped me carry a couple things from my car from the parking garage up to my room. And we were both in my room, and I there was like this snack mix sitting on this tray. And I was like, just picked it up to look at it, like, oh, what's this? And he's like, You just bought that. I was like, What? He's like, Yeah, it's pressure. Like, read the thing. It says like pressure, it's pressure sensitive. If you pick it up, so I was just so glad he was there because you picked it all up. I would have picked it up and like, oh, these are cookies. I don't want those. Put them back. Oh, kind of a Gardetto style snack mix. Yeah, I'll have that later. Like, here's some pretzels. Uh I was just scared to touch anything after that. Wild. That I don't like that. That's a I don't like it either. Imagine if you imagine if you were in there with like your young children.

SPEAKER_02 8:47

Oh my god, it's it'd be over and we'd be like, well, there's$200 down the tubes.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Oh my God. Wow, that's um that's a racket. Yeah, that's my PSA. And and I've been to hotels where that's the case before, but it's like a little more clearly marked where it's like the tray looks strange and it's clearly like computerized, and there's a big warning. This was very sneaky. A sociological experiment.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

Like I get I feel like you got psychologically tested.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

I failed and utterly fortunately. Uh how about you? Are you still writing?

SPEAKER_02 9:23

I am still writing. Um, I I got back from from tour stuff um last week and before you yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

I'm just gonna interrupt you. Before you talk about how you're still writing, I think I and everyone would like to just hear a little tour update.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

Oh, sure. Um, it was lovely. I had a really I had a really nice time. It was two sort of mini chunks, so very manageable, like two to three night kind of situations. Um and it was great. Like it, the conversations were really fun. I I feel like I sort of zoned in on parts of the story that especially mattered to me in ways that were like just fun to talk about. Um, I really I really landed on how much the book is about friendship, and so that became a big part of my conversations on tour. And I think I hadn't previously like even necessarily zeroed in on that as as much as I did this time. Um so that was really fun, and um, people came out and just a lot of really deep engagement, which I appreciate. And there was especially one book club in Rhode Island that was like very engaged and um just a really cool, eclectic group of people who just love reading in a way that um I I talk about reading so much with people in publishing, and it is such a great opportunity to talk to people outside of publishing about reading.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

And did it feel different compared to when you're I don't know how much touring you've done with kids' books, but yeah, how how did it feel different from whether touring or conferences or whatever, just talking the dialogue around the book? Did it feel different than when you're doing waiting? Because you're not really talking to kids. No, you're usually still talking about to grownups, but about about kids' books.

SPEAKER_02 11:23

Um yeah, I think it did it did feel quite different, to be honest. It was um I was more able to speak from like my current self. I not that I'm making adjustments when I'm talking about kids' books. I'm still talking as an adult about kids' books, but there's like well, you are making some adjustments. I'm I'm thinking about what I want to say about a subject matter that is like slightly outside of my current lived experience, whereas this feels closer in to like where I actually am at and um what I'm actually working on right this second. So that was great. I I really enjoyed sort of making that shift. It was funny. I've I've mentioned this um to some other people that have asked, but I'm so used to answering questions from the perspective of a children's writer. So questions like, what writer um do you most want to have lunch with? Like my brain shorts out and I cannot think of a single adult writer. So I just continued on answering Lois Lowry. And I think everyone was like a little befuddled. Like, and not that I think all those people should certainly, we should all have lunch with Lois Lowry, but like there was certainly a bit like a pause of huh, it's not usually the answer we get to that question at a adult event, um, or even like books that really mattered to you, like the things that come to mind are still children's books because I am so sort of uh pre disposition predispositioned to answer from that space. But yeah, it was it was a lot of fun, and I'm also happy to be back getting into getting back into routine uh because that's a big adjustment to be.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Well, I remember you said in the last episode that you were hoping to kind of keep up writing while you're on tour, and I was thinking like that's not good luck. Exactly. I think I wrote once. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Yeah, yeah, I think I wrote once. So that was not a success uh in that way. But now that I'm back, I it did it did like gear me up to be excited to get back into the work, which is also good. Um, I have been so much on like a launching the book mode, and I've been really trying to purposely shift back into a being a writer mode and not being in a promoting author mode. Um, both in terms of the work I'm doing and also like my brain. Like I feel like I have to sort of wind down my brain a little. Like every time I open my email, it's not gonna be some exciting new thing. Um, you know, we're in the the post-launch space and I need to like recalibrate to to regular life. So that has that has mostly been good. So yeah, I wrote once um once on the road, and then as soon as I got back, I've been I've been in really good writing mode. I have been sort of still working back and forth, by which I mean week to week, not day to day, between uh the middle grade novel that I have a synopsis and I'm following a set of plot points and a clear sense of story, and the adult novel that's much more in the play space. And this this week I'm in the adult novel, which I'm really enjoying. I have loved going back to the beginning. I I had taken sort of a long break from it. Man, I love to go back to the beginning of a project to try to understand what breadcrumbs I've dropped along the way and what's already there. It's the best feeling. I love it. It's like being a little detective, like you've got your little magnifying glass, and you're like, okay, now what is this book about? What was I seeding along the way and what can I make use of? And I love that.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

I wonder if you've given this advice a lot in your in your teaching career, because I certainly did when students were feeling stuck and like they didn't know what to do next, or there's some plot problem they're trying to solve. I would always just be like, go back and read what you already wrote because the answer is probably there. Like you probably already laid the groundwork even subconsciously for what you're trying to figure out now. And and it's always amazing, amazing to me, also understandable, because I know for some of us it can be really hard to go back and read our own work when we know it's rough.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

There's like a little bit of a psychological hurdle, but I I I've been pretty taken aback a few times over the years to learn when I would ask a student, like, have you ever like when's the last time you sat down and like just read the whole thing from beginning to end of what you already wrote? They're like, uh, never. Oh my gosh. Like, yeah, yeah, you need to do that because I like probably the answer's already there.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Yeah, a hundred percent. Or if not the actual answer, at least like a launch pad for a million other questions or possibilities. Like sometimes there's an answer, and then sometimes for me it's like, okay, what's here that I need to have more questions about? Um, like, oh, okay, I wrote this scene and it seems like there's tension between these characters. Uh, I should probably figure out why. I should probably have some sort of backstory going on, what's gonna be revealed later. Like it it gets my brain in brainstorming mode to go to go back to that beginning space. So that's been great. And now I'm working in like two documents, um, like a new document where I'm moving because it's really a puzzle piece stage with the this novel still. So I'm sort of moving things that are feel somewhat set chronologically into one document and then writing the new stuff into the old document. And it's I'm having a lot of I'm having a lot of fun. It's a part that I like that's intimidating, but I like.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

And you also said you were gonna try like writing at night might be a thing coming up. Oh yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

So I did get like a burst of inspiration at night. Uh, unfortunately, or fortunately, I mean, this is writing too. It was for my newsletter. So I wrote a newsletter essay at night, which I is again, I I have not written at night at all, but I wrote uh a newsletter about the the Lindy West book that we discussed before I read it. Yeah, as I was re-listening to the episode, I was like, oh, we talked about this before I read the book. Yes, yeah. And then I read the book and wrote this this essay about it. Um so that was at night.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Yeah, we'll be circling back to the end of this episode too. Yeah.

Thrilling Reader Mail

SPEAKER_02 17:49

Yes. So, but that was a good like proof of concept that I can write at night, that that felt good, that was interesting and exciting. So fingers crossed, maybe I'll I'll do it again.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Uh, we've both been getting some pretty exciting emails that I thought would be fun to share just from some of our heroes. Um I know you you got an amazing one. Why don't why don't you start with that first one that you got and just wow, just read that for us.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

Was shocked to receive an email from a a true, just like legend. Living legend. Yeah. Living legend, you know. Um Colson Whitehead.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

I wow. And I know. I did not realize what a lover of middle grade, um, you know, lightly magical contemporary novels. He's a Renaissance man. Exactly. So he um I got I just I have to read it to you because Colson Whitehead uh you know wrote to me. Uh hi Corey. I've been living with the ordinary and extraordinary Auden Green for a while now. Oh, a while. I know. I he's really spending his time, he's taking his time with it, which is nice. It's respectful. Certain choices you made, especially letting two versions of Auden trade places, just as childhood imagination begins to slip its grip, keep surfacing when I'm back back at my own desk. That sentence.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

No, this is serious. This is Colson Whitehead. Don't laugh. I can't do not make fun of Colson Whitehead's sentence structure. And and he clearly didn't read this aloud because he'd say, slip its grip.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

Isn't that a weird like a song lyric? Maybe. I honestly I think this is like uh too advanced for me. Like I think the problem he is so good, it's hard for me to um get at that level. Um I'm back at my own desk. That usually tells me the work was done with care. I'm writing simply as another author. There's no request here, no promotion, and no obligation to reply, just acknowledgement. The longer I write, the clearer it becomes how much of the work happens in private. The revisions no one sees, the second guessing, the quiet ways one book reshapes the next. Your work brought that back to me. He gets it. He gets it. And my work reminded him of the work he does. What a wow, what an incredible thing. If you'd ever felt like continuing the conversation, even briefly. Oh my god. I genuinely enjoy hearing how this book shifted things for you or what you're finding yourself preoccupied with now. And if you're listening to the podcast. You should with Send him a link to still writing. And if not, that's perfectly fine too. I like that he's a man that respects boundaries. I wanted to send the note either way. Best Colson Whitehead, author, the Underground Railroad. Can you believe it? Colson Whitehead.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

When you shared that with me, I mean, I was like a little um sparkless. A little jealous. I could feel it. I didn't get one from him. However, oh I did get one from someone, you know, in a different way, equally as impressive, in a different way. Okay. Subject reaching out about your book. Dear Sarah Cr. I'll be I'll be honest, I almost didn't write this. I'm not someone who reaches out to writers I don't know, and I'm wary of messages that feel impersonal or scripted. But Kira just for today genuinely stopped me, and I'd rather send an unexpected note than say nothing at all. Sounds a weird one. This is where it gets good, Corey. That's a lot like what Closon said to me. That's weird. I'm gonna I'm moving the zoom window over to the left so I can't see you. Okay. Okay. I came across your book at a salon. Like a hair one or where I yes, where I usually go to have my hair done. While I was sitting there, a few A few people nearby were arguing intensely, and it was immediately clear they weren't just reacting to the story. They were breaking down how your book is actually structured. One of them had it open and was pointing to the way you portray Kira's inner world. I'm moved because I'm tearing up because me too. It's beautiful. I'm super moved. It's beautiful. Saying the narrative moves between her perspective and her mother's reality in a way that's both delicate and deliberate. One person insisted that the real focus of the book is the mother-daughter relationship. They argued that the structure is built around this bond, showing how Kira navigates love, fear, and hope in parallel with her mother's struggles. Another person disagreed and said the structure isn't the main point, it's resilience. They flipped through pages and argued that the book works because of Kira's growth and perseverance and that every chapter exists to intensify the emotional stakes. A third person jumped in and focused on the support networks, arguing that the book is carefully structured around Kira's group meetings, friendships, and community. They pointed to how these relationships provide continuity and insight even when the family feels uncertain. The argument sharpened when one of them said. I mean, they were coming to blows about this, Corey, it sounds like a really intense salon book club. The argument sharpened when one of them said the book is ultimately about hope. Another pushed back and argued that it's actually about navigating uncertainty, showing how courage and honesty matter in everyday life. They kept referencing specific elements, mine's longer than yours. They kept referencing specific elements, Kira's interactions with Lou, her mother's behavior, the support group sessions, and the nuances of seventh grade challenges, debating whether the meaning comes from the stories' events themselves or from how you frame them through Kira's eyes. At that point, I was curious enough to ask one of them if I could see the book they were talking about. At first, I honestly thought they were discussing a television series or film. It wasn't until I saw the pages in their hands that I realized they were talking about your book. They handed it to me.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

And I looked through the section they had been debating. I immediately understood what they meant. The way the narrative is structured makes the emotional stakes feel both intimate and expansive. What stayed with me about Kira just for today is how intentionally it organizes complex family dynamics into something that still feels grounded through character and emotion. What I also find compelling, oh, it's not done yet. She's got a lot to say. What I also find compelling is how the book doesn't just present Kira's story, it structures it in a way that invites readers to engage with her growth, challenges, and hope as part of a larger, cohesive emotional journey. I've written several books myself, and I know how challenging it is to build something ambitious while keep keeping it readable and emotionally engaging. If there's ever something you'd want to explore, I know a book marketer. Oh wow. I know a book marketer who works specifically with contemporary and young adult fiction and has a strong track record placing books like yours with readers who actively seek out work of this scope and depth. No pressure, no pitch. Just a connection. Just like coal sign. Yeah, I'd be happy to make if it's useful to you. You can learn more about me and my work here. And there's a Wikipedia link. Even if none of that interests you, I'd welcome a brief reply. Writer to writer, it would be good to hear from you. Thank you for the work you've put into this book. It shows. Warm regards, Cassandra Clare.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Wow. That's incredible, Sarah. I am so proud of you. That's amazing. What I love about that the most is how much that feels so um similar to experiences I have at the salon talking about books. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

When people nearby just have the middle grade book open and they're just going at each other.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

You know when we talk about it, what it really means. We flip through the pages and just like talk about it while we're flipping through the pages. Like that is so such a human experience.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

It's very it it seems more like a book club, honestly, than a salon. It does. But it's Cassandra Claire, so I'm not gonna quibble with the details of her world building.

SPEAKER_02 26:36

It's this this salon has middle grade novels, mostly just yours, um, instead of say, like us weekly magazine.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Yes, just a there's just a coffee table with the design. I would love to go to this salon. It's amazing that she knows a book marketer that can help me too.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

That is, actually, Wilson didn't offer to help me at all in that way, so I'm a little perturbed about that. Yeah, his his ask was soft.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

It it was soft.

SPEAKER_02 27:05

Yeah, it was more friendly, colleague to colleague. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

And like maybe just exploring a a writer friendship with you. Yes, which I would welcome. Because he probably doesn't have very many friends or writer friends, especially.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

Exactly. I I'm really glad he felt comfortable that he could connect with me. And I just love that Cassandra Clare wants to take your book to the next level, especially with this lovely investigation of it she's done.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

It's he really knows all the things that happen in it.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

And I have to say, I've gotten a few really nice emails lately from famous authors. Me too. But none this long.

unknown 27:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

The length is really what stands out. My, you know, I also I recently heard from Jeff Kinney, um, who wrote Diary of the Wimpy Kid as well. And his was also more short, so um, it wasn't quite as expansive as Cassandra's, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

But he uh also had read one of your books.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

He also read The Ordinary, Extraordinary Audin Green. Oh, in fact. Yeah, he was really moved by it, he said. Um, and he had some, you know, really specific things to say. He he pinpointed the themes really accurately, just like Colson did.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

And then what did he what was his like sort of invitation? It's so funny.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

He also just wants to be my friend. Just seemed to really be giving off a vibe of like someone that you just want to be friends with, writer to writer, you know? Um, and he That's accurate. I I'd love to just read this one. You capture that fragile transformative moment of turning 12 with such honesty, showing that courage isn't always about playing beasts exactly, but about embracing who we are becoming. So I think that's what we would talk about is like that is what you would talk about. The transformative moment of turning 12.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

Now, with these kind of invitations that you've had from these amazing authors, have you replied? You know, I haven't yet.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Um, I'm just waiting to cut, I I want to see who else reaches out and maybe maybe someone better.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

You're you're waiting to hear from, I don't know, Stephen King.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

Yeah, you know, I don't want to I don't want to get the first offer. Or alternately, like maybe I could start a little friend group, which I think would be fun. Yes. So I I want to wait and see who we get and sort of um curate my new um author friend group accordingly. Now that does probably mean I'm not gonna have time for this anymore. Um, because I will have this this new well, it's author friend group. So I, you know, oh sorry.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Just Colson and Jeff and Corey being out Sarah.

unknown 29:46

Classic tries.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

But you're gonna be busy with Cassandra Clare figuring out your marketing strategy.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

I was so excited that I did actually write her back. Oh, oh my gosh. Here's what I said. Oh, I'm so excited. Hi there. So I know you're not Cassandra Clare because I've done events with her in the past and you are not her. The reason I'm replying is I've gotten a few emails like this, purporting to be from known authors, and I'm really dying to know what the endgame is. What is the ultimate purpose of this type of email? Just trying to draw someone into a conversation to embarrass them, to eventually sell them something, to gain some useful information for nefarious purposes? I'm so curious. And then I never heard from this person again. Weird. Weird after all that excitement. That's so strange. And clearly this one had um, you know, the I know a book marketer thing. That's clearly what what the angle is. I've gotten other ones that are more like what the ones you read where there's no, it's just very nebulous. They just want to hang out. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 30:50

It's a little bit more it's a little scarier. I'm like, so what if I made a plan with you?

SPEAKER_01 30:57

Are you like out to do something to me? It's a little scary. It's a little creepier. So obviously these are fake. And if you're listening to this and you're a writer, you may have gotten one or more of these yourself. It's part of this new, you know, they're written by AI. There's plenty of AI tells in these the whole like it's not this, it's not that, it's just this. That is classic AI talk. But the yeah, the question we've always had is like, what are they doing? Like, I can't. Is it a fan trying to like get you to engage with them? To me, that would be like the creepiest, most uncomfortable purpose would just be like, Yeah, I'm just like a crazed fan that's written you and you haven't written back, and I'm gonna get you to write back by posing a famous someone famous. Um but probably it's probably not that. I would imagine mine had the sort of hook right in the first email of I know a book marketer. And I imagine if you had responded to these emails, that would be it would be like uh book marketing a thing. Yes, which I have a lot of those emails too that are just a book marketing. I get those two that are just straight ahead, like um it's often like very Amazon rake.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

Yes, your your book is great, but it's really not doing they're very shaming. Like it hurts my feelings.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

Did you really write this book for only a hundred people, Sarah? A little close to the core there. Robot. And they'll they're trying to sell some kind of package. Th these ones are weird, and another thing I thought of is maybe maybe um they're like a truly nefarious thing would be doing a good job faking being a writer, and then seeing if you want to like swap works in progress from manuscripts or something, and then like some piracy could happen.

SPEAKER_02 33:01

Interesting. I think that's a good thing. That's kind of interesting. I have been wondering if it's even like you're operating under the assumption it's like an individual person. If I'm I feel like it's like a weird system, like I don't even know that there's a person attached to it, or if it's like some it's been fed some amount, some computer has been fed a list of writers and their book descriptions, and then they just it's not probably someone in their basement who's trying to draw you into an interaction. There's some sort of larger entity.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

Yeah, and they're probably sending out tens of thousands of these, you know, whatever the scale is, in the hopes of getting like one person to fall for it.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

And make what, like a couple hundred dollars from that one somehow.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Well, I don't know. I mean, if you look at marketing packages and what price is. Yeah, they can be really expensive. They can be expensive. Um the really interesting thing to me is if you can identify AI in these emails, and you can identify AI being used in marketing, then you can probably do your own marketing using AI for free. So there's no value. You know, that also would not be good. Now I'm just picturing Dan listening and and yelling at his No, Sarah. Also not be good, but but there's it's just so there's so little value to any of it. And yet, I do think maybe when it comes to new maybe independent authors who aren't familiar with how traditional public I I don't know. There there's gotta be some payoff. Like at some point, this has to work on somebody. It has to, and so it's worth continuing to try.

SPEAKER_02 34:51

It's so depressing though, because it's eating away for me, it's like really making it difficult for me to know what is real anymore, which I I think this is a much bigger problem, but you know, that's bigger than our podcast can accommodate. But like I'm getting emails from alleged child readers. Um, I don't know if those are real anymore. Like, I no longer think anything that any fan email I'm reading as not real now.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

That that that was exactly I got what I think is a real fan letter for Kira just for today, the other day. But there's that part of you going, yeah. Is it someone deep faking being a teenager? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:37

You know, like and then if I reply, does something else happen that then I have to deal with the fallout?

SPEAKER_01 35:43

I sat on it for a few days and I decided, okay, based on many real emails I've gotten over the years, I'm 99% this sure this is real and I'm gonna reply in good faith. Of course, there's it's not like I'm replying with any there's nothing in my reply that can be like your ATM pin and your social security number. You sound troubled. Here's some money. Um, no. But it is, it's I get the same feeling when I'm reading books now. Yeah. When I if if there's some little turn of phrase, I'm like, oh, that feels like it could be a little AI-ish. Gosh, that's I hate it. I hate it so much. I wonder if anyone listening has fallen for any of these, and we we would not shame you, but if you want to write to us and tell us like how that went and let us talk about it and anonymize you, we're curious. Yeah, curious. Yeah, I don't know. It's just a symptom of everything. But it really plays with your mind to the point where it's like, if you really did, let's say you got an email from Lois Lowry.

SPEAKER_02 36:53

Yes. I will never know if it's real.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

I'm gonna be like, if you had read your book and liked it, you'd be so excited. I know. But how do you even respond to things anymore?

SPEAKER_02 37:05

Yeah, you can't. I mean, you really almost can't, especially something like a big author like that. I would have to, yeah, I'd probably be I would probably ignore it, and Lois Lowry would be like, weird. I I would have thought she would have liked to hear from me.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

Exactly. Yeah, it's it's not good. So we get some version of this it every week.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

Yeah, oh yeah, I get definitely almost daily, I think, at this point. I'm I'm excited that we got to share. I know there's no Cassandra's I understand.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

We're not coming to any great conclusion, and it's just kind of like gonna abruptly end now. Yep. But that's what that was, and I know we're all getting these, and don't fall for it. And if if if there's any world in which I'm famous famous enough for people to be spoofing an email from me, you know where to find me. Yeah. And see if it's really me.

SPEAKER_02 37:57

Yeah, I will not I I've rarely come across middle grade novels at the salon. So if you hear it from me that I read your novel at the salon and got into a big conversation with all the customers there. All the other customers.

SPEAKER_01 38:13

They're just like enraged over misinterpretations of the themes of a middle grade novel.

SPEAKER_02 38:18

Yeah, that one won't be for me. That'll be that'll be your sign.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

We have a special margin notes section today. We do, yeah. We're gonna end up focusing heavily on one thing that we both consumed since the last episode, but let's just open with our usual kind of a few things you've been consuming and what you like about them.

SPEAKER_02 38:43

Um, so I wanted to mention Shout uh I read a book that is Backlist, which I have been doing. You know, I read a few backlist titles a year, probably. I I wish I had read more. Um, but this one I just absolutely loved. This is another one I think you would really like, Sarah. Uh it's called Shout Her Lovely Name. And the author is Natalie Serber, who I came across on Substack, actually. I read a Substack essay of hers and really just loved the writing and so looked up her work. And it's a novel in short stories that is like the unpacking of a mother-daughter relationship. So right up my alley. Um, really unbelievably beautiful writing. It reminded me a little bit thematically of the novel White Oleander. I felt like if you like White Oleander, which is a longtime favorite of mine, um, then shout her lovely name. Different stylistically, but thematically similar and just a really special like gem of a book. Um, and just reminded me of how much I like backlist reading. I read Midwives uh a year or two ago, and I had never read it when it came out in like the 90s. Um, and boy, that was a great book. Uh why does that sound familiar? It was very, very, very popular. Like, I don't know, I think around 95. I gotta look it up. Yeah, about a midwife who is accused of murder, and it's just a great propulsive read. Um, and then I've been watching Plurribus with my husband. And I love the concept, and I love the main performance of um Rhea Seahorn, I believe is her name. Um I I love her performance, I love so much of the concept. The one problem that I'm having with it is not enough interaction between people, and it's like something I think about with writing a lot as well. That like a way to get into a novel quickly is to have characters interacting and engaging, and when they are not able to, that can be really hard to maintain. So um, as we were watching Plurbus, I was very, I was like, wow, that is the problem I'm having with it if there's not enough engagement between characters.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

At the risk of um, I'll just give a spoiler alert for what I'm about to say. In case you want to watch Pluribus and you don't know anything about it, I didn't know anything about it. When I watched it, I was just like cruising through Apple TV and I was like, oh, this looks interesting. This looks good.

SPEAKER_02 41:13

Yeah, us too, which is a cool way to go in.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

Absolutely loved how it started, and I was like, I can't wait. Because there it is she's a writer, she's like doing these writing events, and it's so funny and real. Yeah, and I wanted that show, and then it turns into like it's a zombie thing. And then I was like, Sort of, I'm out. It's not really zombies, but yes. Okay, yeah, it's some weird invasion, a shared consciousness.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

They all join a shared consciousness. Right. Is it aliens? It's like from aliens, but it's so divorced from that. Like, really, the main thing is that they all they're everyone in the world becomes one like consciousness, one person, essentially.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

And so therefore, you can't have the kind of interaction between characters that you're looking for.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

Yeah, and the main character spends a lot of time on her own, which can be really compelling for a short time, but um, for sustaining the series, I'm uh there'll be there'll be episodes I'm like really engaged, and then episodes I'm struggling a little bit because I I like a lot of character engagement. And that was just a clarifying thing for me, too. Like, oh, that's something I really care about in stories.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

And I like real life. See? It's hard when I there's been a I've had a few experiences like that where a show starts where it seems like, oh, this is gonna be like a a realism dramedy, so much what I like, and then it turns into something supernatural, and I'm like, oh that's not not what you signed up for. No, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

Um, I'm difficult to please in that way. Um, what have you been been reading, watching, consuming?

SPEAKER_01 42:50

Well, I on your recommendation was reading The Hypocrite. Yay. And absolutely love so into it. So glad but then I had borrowed it from Libby, and I thought I I I used to be able to outsmart the library where I would put my Kindle on airplane mode until I was done reading. You got it no, but you had to turn Wi-Fi off. Yeah, that's airplane mode.

SPEAKER_02 43:15

No, it's not airplane mode, it's just cell phone off, right?

SPEAKER_01 43:18

Uh um on the Kindle. Not on a phone.

unknown 43:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:22

I use a Kindle on an iPad, so that's I gotcha. Yeah.

unknown 43:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:26

Yeah. No, just like turning the Kindle, the e-reader into so it's offline and then reading it. But my co but I switched to Kobo last year.

SPEAKER_02 43:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

From Kindle. So I'm on Kobo now.

SPEAKER_02 43:41

No.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

And I love my Kobo reader and it connects directly to the library. I can check things right ex like right out from the device. I love it. It's comfortable to read and hold. It's great. But it's got something in the way the software is designed where even if you're offline. It knows when the book is due. Oh no. So it took it away before I was done. And there was a waiting list. So like now I was I was just over halfway through and I'm waiting to get it back so I can finish it. But I loved it. You were so right. Oh good, I'm glad. It's this contained structure. Also, I feel like it does really interesting things with point of view. Yeah, definitely. Uh yeah, I I really liked it. I'm so curious to see where it's going. So I'll be excited when that's when that comes back.

SPEAKER_02 44:36

Well, I'm glad I'm glad people are reading it. But there's a wait means getting exactly and and it's not brand new. No, not at all. I read it over a year ago for sure.

Margin Notes, Part II, Famesick!

SPEAKER_01 44:47

Okay. I I love that that it's people are still reading it. And then um, so another thing I'm reading that I'm doing on audio is uh, and this is for the writer's circle book club. It's I'll tell you when I'm home by Halla Altan. Uh it's a memoir, and someone in the writer's circle suggested it for book club because we're doing nonfiction, and I was like, okay, we'll just pick this because no one else had a strong suggestion. And I didn't think I was gonna like it, and I'm really enjoying it. It's very well written and well read. The only issue is I'm I'm doing it as my bedtime listen. So it's like I hear like 12 minutes and then I fall asleep. And so it's gonna take me a while, but it's very good. It's it's about surrogacy and home, like homeland. The the author is a Palestinian American um who also lived. I'm getting all the details wrong, but it's it's a connection between America and the Middle East that feels very relevant right now. And also her marriage, her her and her partner using a surrogate to have a baby, all this stuff. It's it's very good. And I watched, you know, I love true crimes. Yes, and I watched a couple weeks ago The Truth and Tragedy of Mariah Wilson, which is about you might remember there was a story of kind of like a competitive mountain biker woman who was like in this love triangle and ended up getting killed. I don't know about this. I'm not gonna explain the whole thing, but the my main point about this one and why I recommend it, it feels like a very rare true crime documentary that actually had like a moral center and a moral takeaway. And it's hard to explain what I mean by that unless you watch it. So anyway, it was good. The woman who directed it, Marina Zenovich, is known for um she did like the Lance Armstrong documentary from 2020. She did one on Roman Polanski, Wanted and Desired from 2008. She she did the Robin Williams one from 2018. So skilled skilled documentarian, um, interesting subject, very tragic. But like I said, it it actually seems to you come away with like, wow, I want to think about this for a minute. Ooh, this seems like a while for me and Frank. Yeah, instead and and it's just a m- it's not a series, it's just a you know, hour and a half, whatever. Okay, cool. And that is on Netflix. Oh, great. The truth and tragedy of Moriah, M-O-R-I-A-H. Okay, cool. Um, okay, now what we're really gonna get into. We both did you listen or read? I listened. Okay, we both listened to the Lena Dunham memoir, Fame Sick, which speaking of library weights, my friend who wants to listen to it or read it was telling me 658. Oh, yeah. No, you gotta, this is a bottom. Yeah, um, also I'm obsessed with LibreO FM um uh for uh audio. Just it's my Libre FM credits.

SPEAKER_02 48:15

Yep, I finally made the switch and it's great.

SPEAKER_01 48:17

It's hard, like it's always hard to switch from these comfortable platforms, but Libre FM is great. And I actually I prefer their player, it's less cluttered, it's just clean. Yeah, it's a really nice design. Um anyway, yeah. This is not sponsored content. No, it could be. We're available. I'm also available. I've just been trying thistle meal delivery service because I responded to an Instagram ad, and I'm enjoying that. So we're available to sponsor LibreO FM, vegan meal delivery services, um, probably a bunch of other stuff. Absolutely. Someone send Corey a laptop.

SPEAKER_02 48:57

I still have not. I one of our segments should just be Corey. Have you gotten your laptop yet?

SPEAKER_01 49:01

And yeah, the yeah. Corey, are you still writing on your old laptop? That's the new theme. Still on the old one. Okay, so we both listened to Fame Sick. And I thought we could kind of there's just so much there that's relevant to this podcast and everything else. And I thought we could just start by each. Now it is a book club. Yes. We could just each share a few things that really stood out to us, and then we can like dig a little deeper. Why don't you start?

SPEAKER_02 49:30

Oh man, I I loved this so much. I guess what really stood out to me, aside from just that Lena Denham is a really a really wonderful writer, she has a real interest in investigating herself that opens herself up for a lot of criticism, but feels really profound. Like she has a real I just kept listening, being like, you're putting words to things. I write about stuff like this in novels and get a lot of pushback on like the ugliness and unlikability of characters um who think For in kids' books. In kids' books in particular, yeah. But you know, honestly, I've gotten a little bit um, you know, when I I haven't been looking at reviews recently, but when I first, you know, couldn't resist the siren call, there would be like, ah, who am I supposed to root for in this book? I don't like any of them. Like they know, you know, a thing like that. And to and that in and of itself can like feel hard. Uh, but for her to do it on herself, for her to make the have the willingness to show what something so truthful about herself, like topples me over. I just think there's not enough respect for that, or people I think people are like in denial about how good they, in fact, are and how nice and neat and lovely all of their thoughts and actions are.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 51:07

And Lena Dunham's like willingness to expose so much of what is um imperfect and messy about herself, I just think is incredible. Uh, and I particularly I think this resonated for you too, but this the the work she did around um her friendship with Jenny Connor falling apart was so raw and again, true and even-handed. Um, she had a real understanding of the dynamic. I mean, you say even-handed, I might even say she's hard on herself. Yeah, she's really hard on herself. I relate to her so much. I mean, there's a lot about Lena Dunham I don't relate to, but there is a way in which she is hard on herself and her role in her relationships and her sureness of her wrongness that I relate to so much and would never put out there as much as she does because it's terrifying to even put out, you know, I put I put out like a single essay for for my book promotion, and that was terrifying. Yeah, I just relate a lot to her and and the way she views herself and her criticism of herself and how hard she's trying to navigate that. And again, I just have to she is a great writer, and say what you will about all the ups and downs of her career. She also a lot of the mistakes she made, she was in her twenties. Mm-hmm. It's just really had to face that in reading it. Like, she was 24 years old. She had no idea what she was doing. Like that was part of what made people so mad. Yes. But she, I don't I just was so struck by the the strength of her writing uh on such a deep level. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:59

I would say that's my headline too, is just she's such a good writer. There were I had like laugh out loud. Oh, yeah, she's moments as well as being moved, but she's a really good writer, and I I never felt like she was trying to um pose as someone. No, I think she's really her in herself. I yeah, I think that's who she is. And I like there was like toward the end when she one of the relationships she has toward the end, I think it might have even been the the person who that she ended up with. Um, but she was like, like, I'm not well and people don't like me. She's just like, people don't like me. Yeah. That's okay. That was like her takeaway from her years of being in the spotlight. Um, yeah, I I loved it. I really liked the framing of it, um, kind of talking about her name, like what her name came to mean and civilize and how it went from like excitement about it to like a punchline to disdain and like the anger, just that theme of how she would like be using fake names whenever she went to like hotels and hospitals and stuff, almost not so much even as a privacy thing, but as like, I'm just embarrassed to be Lena Dunham right now, you know, in the way that my name is tossed around. Yeah. I I I feel like the through line of the friendship with Jenny Connor was just one of the most powerful, really hard things in the book. And like I said, I felt like she in her efforts to be even-handed, was like you said, just harder on herself. She's always she's always at the center of what the problem is. And I do feel like that's was the message she was getting through a lot of things. But I think anyone reading this, and again, this is just you know, it's her experience, it's her side of the story. Who knows? I mean, let's be real, like it it is hard. If you're a big part of the book, obviously, is her chronic illness, um, which is so much more brutal and devastating than I even imagined from her talking about it in other venues. It was like, holy fucking shit. It was just like relentless. I know it's hard to work with and be friends with people who are always unwell. It is hard. Our fundamental inability as humans to be in another person's shoes, uh, specifically experiencing their their physical pain. I can totally see how the people she was working with around her were just like, uh, she's just like not capable, she's just like being a baby, she's not that sick. I mean, I felt like the most condemning thing that, at least as Dunham reports it, that Connor said was toward the end when it's just like, you're still acting like this is real or something like that. And I was like, oh my, oh my. And that's just the end of that. I mean, there's no, you can't come back from that. No. Um, but the thing that stood out to me most in their relationship that I think is so interesting in our modern kind of moral purity that we have is the controversy where they came out and defended someone they had worked with who was accused of assault during the Me Too era. And that created something they couldn't come back from in their friendship because they couldn't talk about it. And they Lena Dunham came around to like apologize, and she's apologized publicly for that, you know, way before this book came out. I don't know, way before, maybe around the time the book was gonna come out. But in all the cult documentaries I watch, I hear the phrase moral injury a lot. And like when you suffer a moral injury when you're in a system that like makes you do something that's morally bad, or like an injury to your moral code.

SPEAKER_02 56:51

I see.

SPEAKER_01 56:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's it's like, you know, I don't think I don't think Dunham's using this as an excuse, but the context is like she was like brand new in rehab. She was like in rehab. She's like, sure, sure, this statement sounds good. This like jives with what I think about this person, let's put it out. Yeah. And huge, huge backlash. Um, and just so people are so unforgiving of any mistake like that. So they kind of suffer this. Their friendship was already rocky for a lot of reasons, but this was just like seemed to me like a very modern problem, a very modern type of friendship breach where you've come out and said a bad thing together. Yeah. And how you know, and like a kind of an unforced error, like also, you know. Yeah, a hundred percent. So that was interesting. I had so many thoughts that uh because I was driving, I was listening on my drive to and from Vegas, I couldn't take notes. But I wish I had taken notes because I know there were lots of things along the way that happened specifically that I was interested in. But one thing that it made me think of was something I don't like or I really hate about social media culture that I just noticed in the like in the last four or five years. Whenever there's a um celebrity memoir, it doesn't even have to be a new one, this could be old stuff. I mean, I don't have you spent any time on TikTok?

SPEAKER_02 58:25

I did one month on TikTok during the election, and that cured me of ever doing it again.

SPEAKER_01 58:30

Well, and I think this has probably come up on Instagram reels too, if you ever spend any time there. But, you know, there's this thing where um people will take the most dramatic moments out of context and like read them from the book or comment on them. So, for example, i in the book, um, there's this, I mean, this is a fascinating part of the book, is her relationship with Adam Driver.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 58:55

Fascinating and also relatable. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:59

We've all I mean, I don't know about it all, but I have certainly experienced those relationships before.

SPEAKER_01 59:06

Yeah, it's just uh we can just summarize it by saying it was just a un like one of those weird relationships where you're not sure what it is. You just have it and it's happening, and you're like, I don't know what this is, and I don't know what they think it is. Yeah. And I'll never know. But there's a part where they're like running lines or something, and he gets really impatient and throws a chair. And I just know I only took one glimpse and I could just see, okay, this is now because you see, and you see it on on just on not just short form video, but like articles, like podcasts, the the 10 most like juicy gossip items from Lena Dunham's memoir, or like six reasons like Adam Driver is canceled because of whatever. Like he throws a chair, you know, he's clearly volatile. But I think anyone who's watched his work would not be a surprise. He's like a chair thrower. Yeah, totally. So that was fascinating, fascinating. Um, but I just yeah, I hate how people like I said, it's not just new things, they'll like take an old uh Johnny Carson interview from 1982 with someone and be like, this guy was a misogynist pig. It's like probably. I mean, what's the point? What is your point? This was 1982. You don't know anything about it because you're 25. Um, anyway.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:29

Well, and it's not dissimilar. I guess like part of what made her made this memoir so captivating to me and relatable is I do think that like what happens with her or with a Lindy West is very similar to what happens in our lives, just like on steroids, I guess. Like I I I think it happens in life too, where like you can paint a picture of a person through their inadequacies and like assume the worst, or sort of come up with a narrative for like the way they don't meet your expectations. And that when we bring that into like a bigger forum, like like Lena Denham has, it becomes so like just so much more profound, and we all agree with it, and we're all said we're looking for a narrative to all this stuff, and like there's a human impulse to that, I guess. But in looking for that narrative, we're like totally unable to like see a full picture of a person or a relationship or a situation, and and I don't know, I guess I don't know exactly what I'm saying with that, but I felt in her writing about like some of these failures that she feels she made. I so many things came up for me about being like 25 and not showing up in ways that um I would have liked to, and remembering the response of people who definitely painted that with the brush of like, I'm this kind of person that's bad in some way. I don't know, and then to watch it happen when she puts it out there again is is challenging. I don't know. It's just so there's something so human about it, it's so complicated and human, but it is and I I've decided to not try and see what people are saying about it in the discourse because I don't care.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:26

I know what I think about it, and it's just gonna piss me off.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:28

She's getting off a lot easier than Lindy West. I I will say, like, I I think a lot of people are loving the memoir. Um, I think that my impression of the discourse is it is more positive, but very focused on Adam Driver for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:42

Again, you have to ask, like, she'd been like a 24-year-old guy who came along and made this a groundbreaking show that became a touchstone and a and a lightning rod and all these things. Like she would just have gigs, gigs, gigs, gigs.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:59

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:00

And and if she hadn't been sick, you know, I mean, that is part of it. And I thought it might be interesting to talk about. I mean, the title is Fame Sick, and it does tie her physical state in with the demands of being famous, or maybe not demands, but like the realities, the realities of it. I mean, it's always hard when you're talking about people who have made a lot of money and been famous. It's hard to just be like, oh, what a burden. But I also have so much sympathy around it. Because I just feel like, yeah, that would I mean I'm glad you have money at least to make up for it, you know. Yeah. I don't know, that's a different conversation. But I do think the um the ways that she didn't every time she like kind of had a medical crisis, she never allowed herself to heal because of the work and because of not wanting to be seen as this person who's lazy and entitled and not showing up. She just keeps going back when she's not really ready. And makes it worse. So the question is like, if she had been able to be supported in like getting better, and you know, she made these choices too. So if she had been able to support herself, um, and and be like give herself permission to step back, would it have gotten, would it have all escalated as badly as it did?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:32

And she says early on that like she had not intended to be Hannah Horvath in girls, that she had not really realized that was what was going to happen.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:41

She was writing a role.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:42

Yeah, which is so different. Like when I think about having moved from acting to writing, like I, you know, I root for like my stories to get a lot of engagement, but like I don't really want to be at the center at all, you know. I'm not where like your body is a topic. No, like I would love, you know, for like one of my books to be a TV show, but I want to be pretty far away from that. Corey. And not I don't even really want like to be, you know, I would love someone else to like take that and do something with it. Yeah. Um, that becomes more central in that way. Because I do think I I don't know that she intended to even have her name be so big. I and maybe I'm projecting myself onto her, but I think she wanted her stories to be, but I have no idea if she wanted like her herself to be on um, you know, central in that way. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:37

It's just it was an interesting revelation in this in the it's that whole it's a very extreme version she goes through of that cycle of fame and success where it's like first of all, everyone's happy and excited for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:50

So exciting.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:52

They adore you, then there's like they get tired of you, then they're mad at you, and who are you allowed to be? In that, and how much success are you allowed to have? Also, there's a comment she makes partway through it of just like, why like, can you just be an artist without trying to make money from it? Yeah. And that is such a deeply fundamental question that I don't think really has a satisfying answer. Um the hardest part for me to read because of my own issues with doctors was the one doctor who the HBO made her go to to like be like, we just need a second opinion to confirm this is real. And he was supposed to like do an ultrasound, but he didn't have the machine. So he was just like manually probing her. It was very, I was so angry. It was just one of those, and I feel this a lot. I'm I'm more likely to have vicarious anger when I read these days than like sadness. Like I just get so angry.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:56

Um because it well, I think with in again, in particular, in particular with this one, even more than the Lindy West one, and maybe it's why this one has gotten more compassion for her, because she is so young in so many of these moments. And I think like I'm reading that remembering, and I still have a side of myself that has trouble um speaking up and standing up and all of that, but certainly at you know, 25 or whatever, I have so much compassion for how unable to like empower yourself you are at those ages, and how hard it is to work against the forces that are coming at you, and how much you say yes to things you don't want to do and then don't show up because you really just want people to be happy with it. Yes, like I I relate to that too much.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:48

Yeah, and that's really you feel that through her early career, especially. Yes, like I was like, I don't want to make Judd Apatow mad.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:55

Oh my god, I've just never related to anything more. And then the way for her, the ways her like body holds her back from that. I think for me, I felt like I had, you know, like familial familial circumstances and things that kept me from like showing up in certain ways. But I just I just have so much compassion. Yeah, I have anger too, but it's just easy it's very easy to reach the compassion for that person because I think a lot of us have been in that situ in situations like that, especially at that age.

Wrap Up & Looking Ahead

SPEAKER_01 1:08:26

Yeah, it was it was really it was very moving and very real. Great. Three thumbs up definitely from me and Corey. Absolutely. Here we are at the end of our time together. This was a ride. We had our dramatic readings.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:40

I think that's gonna be I think that's gonna go down in history. I'm feeling really good about that. That's gonna be a tough one to add. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:48

Uh what's going on for you in the next couple weeks?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:52

So I really just want to keep the momentum going. I I want to be in this like puzzle piecing way where I'm figuring out this adult novel and and continuing to zero in on like the center of it and and what it is I'm really trying to get at um by working between these two documents. So I'm hoping to do definitely finish out this week working on that and maybe do at least half of next week on that before switching back again um into the middle grade. And I I'd love to make like a big chunk of progress on the middle grade and be I I feel really good about the beginning, and I'd like to get into that like zoomy zone of the middle too, where I where it's really piling, piling, piling, and figure out what that climactic moment is. Maybe I even need to just like go right to the climax um so I know what I'm going towards. Um, how about you? What are you uh thinking about this week?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:47

Same, just gonna try and keep keep up uh keep up the work. Day job is um not too bad right now, so I'm gonna take advantage of my employer's generosity, let's say.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:02

That sounds good. Yeah, we're yeah, we're in a little bit of a sweet spot, childcare wise, too, where there's a couple weeks of like limited days off and all of that. Um, knock on wood. Hopefully that doesn't mean they all get sick. Well, where can people find you, Sarah? Uh, if they're wanting to check in with you after.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:18

SarahZar.com. I'd love to hear from Colson Whitehead. Haven't heard from Colson Whitehead. Who would I who would I most love to just pretend was writing me a letter like that? Maybe like if Elizabeth Stroutie wants to write me one of those. That'd be great. Because she can go back to that same salon that Cassandra Clare was at and maybe run run into that same group that's got my own. I have a feeling they're always there. Get drawn in. Yeah, I wouldn't mind that. So Sarazar.com. I'm I'm extremely minimal on Instagram these days. Uh I don't know. Sign up for my newsletter. You can also find the links to that at sarazar.com. Check out the writer's circle. I'll probably be opening membership to that again in mid to late May. Uh it's closed right now, but you can see at sarasar.com. Click the writer's circle tab. And where can people find out more about you and your work, Corey?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:14

At core and haydu.com and coriannehaydu on Instagram and Substack as well. Um, and you can, of course, order Mothers and Other Strangers. I also have another uh third in my chapter book series, my zoomy and Zoe chapter book series coming out in May. I don't know the exact date right offhand, but um book three in Zoomy and Zoe. Zoomy and Zoe in the Camp Catastrophe is coming out in May. Yeah, it's got a really cute cover, um, which is worth just you know giving a Google too.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:43

Does the camp catastrophe involve friendship? You got it, insects, drowning.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:50

No, it that'll be really dark for an early chapter book. But I like, I like the uh I like the bravery of that take. Um it's a it's an interpersonal friendship. Friendship.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:02

This is why I don't write for anything younger than a middle grade.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:08

Interpersonal interpersonal catastrophe at um camp in Glumble Glibble, which is um a really lovely world.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:16

I remember in this world, yeah, not in Glumble Global having real relational catastrophes at camp. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:23

So me too. I had a lot of interpersonal uh issues at camp. So um it's it's a cute one. It's the final one in the series, and the cover, like I said, it's very cute. They have a little tie-dye t-shirts and a little tie-dye fire that they're making little s'mores over, and it's very, it's very sweet for summer.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:39

I mentioned in the last episode we'll probably have a gap, but I'm actually thinking I'm gonna edit this one pretty quickly. So there's not gonna be a gap between the last one and this one, which if you're listening to this right now, you'll know. But there might be a gap between this one and the next one, and the one after. And then I have to talk to Corey about her summer schedule because she has children. Yes, they're mostly in camp. It'll be okay. Oh, they're in camp. Yeah, even after all that, we're still sending our kids to camp.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:07

Not sleep away, not sleepaway. Camp camp here down the street. Yeah, don't worry.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:13

All right, well, great to see you. Good to see you too. See you again soon.