7. Making Meaning, Trusting Timing

In this episode, a sudden death reminds Sara of the idea of vocation, we discuss if there's a perfect time to send a project to your agent (or trusted reader), and Corey goes to the theater.

Some Margin Notes:

• Warren Farha and Eighth Day Books in the NYT
• Indian Princesses by Eliana Theologides Rodriguez
• The Librarians
• Sucker Punch by Scaachi Koul
• Partially Devoured by Daniel D. Kraus
• The Comeback Season 3 (HBO)

More about Sara Zarr

More about Corey Ann Haydu

Theme music: Creative Commons Deep Friendship by Lobo Loco is licensed under CC BY-NC-SA 4.0

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:05

Hi, I'm Sarah Czar and I write novels mostly, mostly about adolescents.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

And I'm Corianne Haydu and I write for children, young adults, and adults. And this is Still Writing. Sarah, are you still writing?

SPEAKER_02 0:23

I'm still writing. And I'm currently writing a lot about writing, like in my journal. Because I'm going through this thing a couple weeks ago, like shortly after actually we recorded our last episode. Um, I learned of the death of uh a man named Warren Farhaw, who had a bookstore in Wichita, Kansas called Eighth Day Books. And it was a very highly curated, a lot of books about religion and spirituality and philosophy and just like and novels that were in conversation with those things. And I knew him from he was always the bookseller at the Glenn Workshop, which is a conference I went to like every single year for like 12 years, and that I'm teaching at this summer. And he was the bookseller, and he would come and just set up tables. And he was just one of those people who was so wise that just being around him made you feel all of a sudden like the world had more meaning, was more peaceful, was more kind, was more thoughtful, was more gentle. And you know, you just ask him like for recommendations of this or that. And he was always always carried my books in his store, just always the nicest, uh kindest person. And we had a connection because I grew up in the Jesus movement in California, and he was involved in that as an adult, but then he kind of went back to his roots and practiced east Eastern Orthodoxy for the rest of his life. And there's something I don't know, it just it was a very unexpected death. I think he was having some kind of routine surgery, um, and something happened and he that didn't come out of it. And in his 70s, you know, so too soon, but also not super young.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

And I'm like having an existential crisis because of just thinking about him and thinking about how I used to think about writing and how much meaning I used to find aside from just oh, the practice of it and the publication and the career. I found so much oh God, don't cry. Um, I found so much deeper meaning in it and really embraced the idea of like having a vocation, you know, like this was my like calling or vocation, and I'm doing it for reasons other than just like to keep a career going. And I found this uh talk that Warren gave, and I for don't know what the context was exactly. I saw someone posted it and it was like on the internet archive, the Wayback Machine. So it wasn't anything recent. And I just wanted to read this little bit about writing and vocation for him. His vocation was bookselling, like he just saw that as his purpose in the world, that it was more than just having a business or whatever. It was like he's connecting people and ideas and making sure the ideas that are meaningful in the sense of centuries, you know, centuries of history and meaning, philosophy, art, religion, going way, way back to the earliest eras. Um he wanted to connect those ideas with with people and connect with people and create a business that was more than just you know a bottom line, a kind of business. Yeah. And so in this context, his vocation pretty much was his bookstore. And this is a little quote from a talk he gave. And he was in person, he was a man of very few words. So the fact that I found a whole transcript of an entire talk that he gave just made me so happy. But it said, um, I've been asked to give personal testimony about finding and living a vocation, so I will oblige, even though I believe that my vocation is still, after 16 years, being tested. Will I endure the parts of the vocation that are distasteful to me in order to continue the thing as a whole? Will I continue to submit to the risks necessary to extend the life of this vocation? Will I live in a manner worthy of the gift of knowing my vocation, even a vocation that is also my occupation, a gift that many struggle their whole lives to determine? Will I distort my vocation through negligence, laziness, distraction, through taking things for granted? Will I continue to be willing to subject my loved ones to the sacrifices they have to make so that I might be able to pursue this vocation, which I hope is God's intended one? These are some of the questions that occur to me as people tell me that I have a vocation and often even praise it. And I think you can read in there like the struggles of having an independent bookstore, you know, was always like I've got kids to feed, and like I got health insurance to buy, I have employees to take care of. Would it be smarter to just go get a regular job? You know, all that stuff that is inherent in like being an entrepreneur or doing something because you feel called to do it, not because it's going to be the most profitable thing. And um, I also just love this line when he says, and my experience in the world of retail sales, you don't often hear the phrase retail sales in a like very esoteric. Spiritual and yeah, I love it. My experience in the world of retail sales and all the grunt work that went with it, these became the wheels for carrying this vision forward. And the reason this is hitting me so hard, and I do, I know I'm like laughing, I am on the brink of tears because I it's very this is a big issue in my life right now. Um how the business of writing can consume the meaning for us. Or if the business of it is not going well, then it feels like what's the point, or like the meaning just gets lost. And I somewhere, you know, in like 2017, 2018, I kind of lost my own religion, lost my faith, stopped going to church. And I feel like right around that time when I lost religion or that kind of faith, I lost faith in meaning in in a bigger way. And I just kind of realized like writing, and I've always said this and I and I've meant it, but I haven't like thought about it deeply in a while. That writing is an act of faith. And my growing up in church and knowing the Bible pretty well, there's this verse about like faith is believing in something you can't always see or prove. Um so the meaning in creative work is like that. It is not tangible or measurable, it is it, it it is monetizable, that's what's confusing, but it's not, yeah, the meaning is not monetizable. Um, the output is, but but not the meaning in it. And so to believe it means something more than what can be measured, you really have to practice faith. And everything in like the world and our capitalist systems and everything is just like working against that all the time. So I've just been doing a lot of thinking and writing about this and like how do especially as like we've talked about in previous episodes, that feeling of like, well, my career in terms of like book sales and recognition and everything, that very well may have peaked. I don't know. So is there meaning to be found in it for me? And if not, why do it at this point? So which goes to the heart of this, what this podcast is about. Like, are you still writing why, how? Um so I've just been thinking so much about this, and I feel like the spirit of Warren Farha um is gonna be with me on this journey. And there was actually a profile of him in the New York Times like back in 2015. So I'll post that link in the show notes if you want to know more about him. Um, yeah, so kind of a heady esoteric check-in from me. I mean, I am also still like putting words into my novel, but I'm thinking a lot about this meaning question and recovering the faith that there is meaning there to be found. And this question of will I endure the parts of the vocation that are distasteful or difficult, you know, to continue the thing as a whole. Because it has to be about for me more than just like keeping a writing career going.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

Um sorry to make you follow that up, but are you still writing?

SPEAKER_00 9:47

I am still writing. Man, I I'm gonna have to like copy and paste that out of our outline into like my own area because that really speaks to me right now as well. And I'm really um happy to have read that. And the what you said about like separating the meaning from the monetization. Um, and what he says about sort of, yeah, can you endure it? It all the he like flags all the obstacles of like what what's going to come up as you pursue the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

Right, and well, and also like beautiful the what he says about retail is like the wheels for carrying the vision forward, like the industry is the vehicle is the you know the motor for getting the stuff to the readers and all of that, and like self-promotion, like that's a vehicle. Social media is a vehicle, but then like what's on the vehicle that you're transporting, you know, and just thinking about that.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Uh it's I I um yeah, that really speaks to me and a lot of sort of where my head has been out, just in a post-publication um moment. So I I that was helpful for me too. Um I am certainly still writing. So, you know, I've been doing this back and forth between the two projects, the adult and the middle grade, and I've I've recently sort of shifted primarily into the middle grade because I did turn in a proposal to my agent for the adult. So I've sort of put that aside with the goal of trying to finish a draft, a strong draft, like a turn into my editor draft of the middle grade. Maybe by the time summer vacation starts, which is in a few weeks here. Um, we'll see if that's late. It's really late.

SPEAKER_02 11:28

Yeah, no, it's really I thought you meant like maybe by the time school starts, because here it's like No. By the time you just feel like, yeah, school's about to start.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

No, we have till September 10th. We have a very weird summer here in New York. Um, but one of the things I did that, you know, always helps, but you know, you forget the things that help when you're sort of lost in the draft is um doing a big read-through of what I had so far of the middle grade. And boy, did that work in helping me land on it needed new ideas. Like it really has it has a central idea, it has sort of a a plot and an arc, but like the specific beats of what that looks like, I can sort of get repetitive on in my work. Um, another scene where we're exploring this same general idea.

SPEAKER_02 12:24

So I'm not really nodding and going more stuff about your work.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Yeah, your books suck.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

I'm recognizing that also in my own, where you just go, I have why do I have so many scenes that are doing the same thing?

SPEAKER_00 12:37

Yes, and I I really had recognized that. I might have talked about this on the podcast before, but I really realized that when I read um one of my old books, I'm not gonna call out which one right now, to my daughter. And I reread it and I was like, God, this book is great. Like the voice is great, it's so cool. I love reading this. And then I got to like the 60% mark, and I was like, Cory, stop writing the same scene. Like I could just feel like a couple extra scenes and chapters in there that were sort of doing the same thing other ones had done. So um I did a big reread and really found like big epiphanies on how to actually put in more adventure and like more things they're doing that aren't just discussing the themes of the book or discussing the central conflict of the book over and over and the push-pull and and testing it out. And um yeah, I I it was very clarifying. So that's been good because I actually feel on much more solid ground with this project than I felt the entire time I've been working on it, which I've been working on it for probably a year now. Um, so there's stakes, the stakes got clarified, some of the characters are coming through more, and uh I I really can rest on vibes for a long time. And I the read through, I think this time and maybe in general, it's something for me to remember, is a good way to like stress test the vibes and see if it's just vibes. And it wasn't just vibes, but it was it needed more.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

Also, I feel like that word vibes is carrying a lot of doing a lot of work. Do you want to unpack that a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 14:16

Yeah, I think I'm really great on um theme and emotional life.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

Kind of the tone, like the overall like mood.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

I'm capturing conflict. It's just I'm not necessarily letting much happen. Yes, yeah. So I've got the the, you know, this person feels this way, and this person feels this way, and this is this, you know, unmovable force between the two of them, and the the book hinges on that conflict. All of that is there. It's just what do you do with it? What what do the scenes do? And I I get caught, I think, in the scenes looking really similar. Um and doing the thing I do well just multiple times instead of forcing myself to do something a little more active. Um God, this is me.

SPEAKER_02 15:07

So I know, I know too.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

I I always think about you. Um, I think you talk you talk about like diner scenes, and I think like that's me too.

SPEAKER_02 15:16

Like diners, kitchens. Everything happens there.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

Yeah, exactly. Uh so I'm feeling like I've made some breakthroughs on on that. And even just today, I had written I had sort of noted that a few weeks ago, and then today I wrote this morning before recording and figured out like a big um meeting to switch where things happened situation, and that was really good too. Like, oh, okay, this big climactic scene actually has to happen a little bit later, and actually these scenes have to go because they're doing the same thing. I sort of caught up, there's a back and forth in this book between the character going to between a sort of more magical area and a more real life area. And there was like one journey too many back and forth. And uh realizing that, and hopefully we'll make it feel more urgent and exciting that a lot more happens. You know, when you cut out one of those, but bring all the conflict still in.

SPEAKER_02 16:18

I'm hoping to feel more it's hard, it's so hard sometimes to get characters doing stuff, especially for the types of books we write that are so focused on the emotional journey. It's really hard to know, like, well, what can they do though?

SPEAKER_00 16:35

What are they gonna do? And I even have magic in there, and I'm you know, like my books always have something lightly magical, but it the magic is always like emotionally representative more than anything else. So, um, but I'm feeling good. I'm feeling on solid ground with that. And I I have a new middle grade idea too. That um I'm of course everything in my body is like, let's do that instead. Yay!

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Yeah, God, I love a new idea.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Oh, the best.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

Well, that's great. And it sounds like I'm just looking at the notes. Oh, you said that you turned in your the adult pitch.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Okay, so you're yeah, and I we'll talk about that a little bit maybe in in the next section too, and what that looks like.

SPEAKER_02 17:16

Let's just transition to the next section. Why no? Okay, current events, no. So yeah, we were just gonna talk about um some stuff we mentioned last time and said, well, let's talk about this next time. Uh but before we do that, let's just take a little moment to say, are you enjoying still writing? Would you like to leave us a five-star review in your favorite podcast app platform thing? Would you like to tell a friend they should subscribe? Would you like to share an episode? Do that. That would be great. Or not, no pressure. We just want to keep finding audience and expanding audience, not for any exciting purpose, but I mean, we really enjoy talking to ourselves and uh we're so grateful to those of you who are listening. And we do get mail, but it would be fun to see how how far this could reach. Um, so if you know someone who's looking for a good idea podcast, see if they like this one. Yeah. And if you hate this, just unsubscribe and move along.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Yeah, don't tell me. I'm sensitive.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

Okay, so one thing we kind of mentioned that we wanted to explore more last time was when does it make sense to share what you're working on with an agent, with your agent. So you have you have a working relationship with an agent. Although I this I guess this could apply if you were also looking for an agent, but I think it's pretty well known. Like, don't start looking until you have a it's always too early unless it's finished. Um you've never had one.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

And I think this could also apply to like when are you sharing with a a reader too, even though that's a slightly different question. No, I think, but I do think you want a certain amount of- Even a writing group. Oops. Yeah. Yeah, a writing group, whoever you're sharing with, what's the time?

SPEAKER_02 19:28

Yeah, so that you're not wasting anyone's time or energy.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

And I was just thinking about a few episodes ago ago when I got back from Vegas, I was like, yeah, like while I was in Vegas, I sent two proposals to my agent. I love writing proposals because as we were just talking about, I love new ideas. And I'm always like, this is great. And then I realized like, I'm not I'm not in a place where I can even like write either of those books. You know what I mean? And so it's it's accepting the reality of how much time one actually has.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

That's interesting because that's a different question than like, is the proposal ready? It's like, are you ready to take on this project that you're putting out there?

SPEAKER_02 20:19

But it's related because that would be it's kind of kind of wasting time. It's like, I have this great idea, this great idea. And then if your agent's like, oh yeah, I'm gonna sell this right now, and then you're like, actually, I'm not gonna be able to write this for three years, you know.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

That's it, it's too soon. It's it's really frustrating though, because I the thing about a proposal, at least for me, is like, well, it's shiny new idea, so that's fun. There's also just something about getting the feedback that yes, it's a good idea.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Yes, you want the feedback. Uh, like it somebody tell me I'm brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

Tell me I'm doing a good job, but also that like, oh, I could write it. Like, because I I have a lot of ideas, and not all of them are bookworthy necessarily. And I do feel like I need a lot of input to understand again the stress testing, like, okay, what would those scenes look like? What would those chapters look like? And getting someone's eyes on that to help me even just flesh out more of what that would actually literally look like, as opposed to how fun it feels in my brain. Oh, I oh, I found that this one little sentence to describe this little idea.

SPEAKER_02 21:32

Um and people spend so much time on that. That is when I see people get really caught up in like writing the perfect synopsis or pitch, it's just like, well, but what is the book gonna be? Like when you actually have to write the book, what is that gonna be? And you don't know that unless you're like a very seasoned professional, you don't know that until you're doing it.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

If you are a seasoned, I mean, I would consider both of us fairly seasoned professionals. And I don't know that I know what the book's gonna be.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

It takes time. But I think you do know what you what it's unlikely to be. You know what I mean? Like I think you know, like we talked about a few episodes back, like having a clarity of vision. I think you know once you reach the point of a clarity of vision, you know what you want it to be and what what you're aiming for, and that you'll eventually figure out how to get there. Whereas someone who maybe it's their first or second and they're just like fixated on the synopsis and pitch, I don't know that they know that. Maybe.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

I'm not trying to yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

That like interior voice interior work you do to sort of yeah, I do organically start to sort out like what would the plot points be, what would the points.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

And you know like your strengths and weaknesses pretty well.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

Yes, it's gonna be this type of book, it's gonna feel this way. Um, how much did you you sent just a uh a brief pitch, right?

SPEAKER_02 23:08

Like a like a two or three page synopsis and a few chapters on each.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

Oh, so you sent chapters too. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

I mean, I'm gonna realize three chapters of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

Wow. I could do that all day long. That's really funny. My the one that I sent out, I actually sent out a like pitch sheet for it, just like a one-page thing of months ago now. And then this time I was sending an updated pitch sheet that captured quite a few different elements, and then maybe about 60 pages or something. Yeah, that's significant. And I feel really excited about that project. And do I do I think it was the right time to send it to my agent? In the sense that I'm like really excited, and at some point I need someone to tell me if I should if it's a good idea or not, and if that's the one I should be working on, it was probably the right time. But I get excited about the possibilities, and then once I'm actually writing, you're pinning it down in a different way.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

Okay, so here's what I'm imagining right now, because I think you and I both have like our inner Dan Krause now, and I'm imagining Dan just being like, Why are you waiting for your agent to tell you this is a good idea, you should write it, you know, or like of these two ideas, this is the one you should write. Um he'd be so mad right now. I'm sorry, Dan. And so, and I think about that a lot because lately, I mean, I would say in the last 10 years of my career, um my agent will just be like, I can't tell you that. Like, you have to write the one that you are gonna write. And yeah, I think we've both been around my agent and I, we both have been together long enough and we've both been around the business long enough, where I think we both recognize like certain positioning strategies and things like that don't really apply now in the way they did earlier in my career or earlier in the state of publishing. And and he's very much now just a person who's like, he's not gonna kind of at least with me, not tell me. I could send him three things and be like, please just tell me which one. And he just refused.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Oh, he'd refuse.

SPEAKER_02 25:33

Well, I mean, he'd refuse he'd give me feedback and just like the pros and cons of whatever, but just like he's not gonna tell me what to do, or if something is the one to work on. This also brings me back to the age-old for me question. And people who have known me a long time are sick of hearing me say this. I've said it so many times. I only want to sell finished, I want to reach a point in my career where I'm only selling finished books. And I have not done that since my first book.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

It's really hard because I agree. In my head, I keep saying, I am also saying that um certainly about the adult book, and I think I'm starting to say that in my head about this next middle grade idea I have. That is really hard to hold yourself to. It feels so urgent to get it out there and to get it slotted as like this is the next thing I'm doing, and we've all agreed to that, and we're on the same page about it, and my career is continuing.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

Yeah, and like here's the timeline and all of that.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

I I've creatively I I couldn't, it is clear as day, like it could not be more obvious that the thing to do is write the book in its entirety before finding a home for it.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

Kind of like you did with your adult novel, except you did have your agent telling you, I believe in this, do it, we're gonna sell it, you know?

SPEAKER_00 27:07

Yes, yes. I mean, showing it to an agent, especially again, I think you and I are in a very particular situation where we have close relationships with our agent, um, personal relationships, that makes it easy for it to be a conversation um that's a little bit outside of the like super formal. So, yes, I think like I can share it with her at any time and she'll be happy to give some amount of feedback. I I wouldn't want to send her something that's like a disaster, but she can she can give me something, you know, if I'm excited. And I think she will say, like, she would like to sell it on proposal. Who doesn't want to sell on proposal in a in a yes in one way, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:46

Of course. In an ideal world, like that's like the system works. Like you said, it gets slotted. You get an advance, you know when it's slotted, you know when your deadlines are. So now you take your advance and you go, like, go write the book.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Yeah, you're writing it for money for sure. That's very different.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

But then from that moment, in a sense, it doesn't belong to you. It can feel like it doesn't belong to you creatively. I don't know. I know this is turning into a much bigger conversation than just when does it make sense to share?

SPEAKER_00 28:18

But and also, but also like, don't you think there's something to the types of strengths you have as a writer? Like, I I love that idea in theory, but when I think about that practically for myself, I actually think that doesn't play to my strengths. I think like a lot of my strengths as a writer are like real creativity and flexibility in revision and real real resilience in understanding feedback and getting really bold with how I address that feedback and thinking in in new ways and collaborating. Like those are really my strengths. So, in I that sounds so lovely, and I don't know that my books would be as good if I was writing, and I think I think there's tons of writers who would really excel in that framework. And I don't know that I'm one of them if I'm honest about how my best books come into being. Like, I just right off the bat was trying to think of like three books right off the bat that like I feel really strong about craft-wise. And they are three of the most like went through a lot of collaboration and a lot of conversation and a lot of changing my mind and starting over. And yeah, I think I it would be selling myself short. So maybe, maybe I'm arguing myself into selling on proposal, although that's tricky to it's tricky.

SPEAKER_02 29:51

I'm glad you said that because reflecting as I listen to you, there's definitely aspects of that that also describe me where my best work comes from getting in there with an editor, and it's interesting because I'm usually not taking the editor's advice specifically. Yeah, but it pushes me to prove something. And I think there's just there's a very real kind of way that I'm fundamentally and I was like this in school. This is gonna sound self um like I'm talking bad about myself, but I just think it's a realistic view of my brain. Yeah. That I there's a lazy side to me that's just like I will once I have someone to prove something to and like the pressure, and then the pressure of like not wanting to be late, not wanting to be embarrassed, all this stuff, then I'll do like great work. And that was me in college, like writing a paper I had three months to do, like two days before, and then knocking it out of the park because I didn't want to let myself down or the professor down or be embarrassed by bad work. So but until then I would just do the bare minimum. Wow, this is just a character flaw. This is just about me and my character flaws. Uh because I yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I know I've I did it a few times. I did finish books, but after selling my very first published book, I don't think I've ever finished a book that was not sold.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

I mean, my adult one is the first one since which it's just very impressive that you did that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

And I I work with someone who is also a writer. So my day job, it's in the humanities arena, and we have a few writers on staff. And um this colleague of mine he just sold like a three books to a small publisher, and they're all already written. And it's like small publisher, low advance, but they're finished. That's it. The work is there. I mean, there's I'm sure there's gonna be like a round of editing, but I just don't know how he did that, um, you know, while also having this like pretty demanding day job. Yeah, but he just has that kind of personality or energy, and so it's just kind of a different paradigm. It's like okay, the maybe like the money sales, blah blah blah, all that, whatever happens, that's gonna happen on the other side of this. But I just gotta like write books and then see if people will take them and publish them. I don't know. This is I'm sick of hearing myself talk about this. Did you come to any conclusions? Like, when does it make sense to share with an agent when you were thinking about this?

SPEAKER_00 33:08

No, but I think I need to push past my initial impulse to do it. Yeah. I think I need to it's longer, it's longer than I think. I want to do it as soon as the idea starts to crystallize. But that's probably months before it's actually taking a stronger shape. Like the proposal I sent, like, yeah, the basic idea was in there, the sort of one-page thing I sent, but I think the story has to be told in like a part one and a part two. That's like a really big thing to be different. I think it's actually sort of the focus of the story, who the main characters are, is kind of shifted from that initial pitch. I needed more time to really sort out what's the interesting part, which is something I really know from teaching in workshop. Like people will read, we'll read everyone's like one chapter, right? And the class will coalesce around it's it's one of the most important interesting things that happens in workshop. Wait, I really want to know more about that uncle. I really want to know more about that guy. What's that guy's deal? And the author will be like, oh, that's like just a sort of side thing that's like not even important. And you're like, oh, but that's what's interesting about the book. And it I need time to understand what's interesting about the book. I don't necessarily need workshop anymore to help me do that, but I think I do need time to to push on the idea. And I guess when I finally shared this kind of 65 pages, I have I probably have 150 pages. Um and so I was able to share 60 sort of representative pages and a pitch. And I think that that is going to end up being more representative of what the book actually was. So it's certainly past. I want to, I want to send a proposal when I've written 30 pages that I'm excited about.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

That's not, I don't think that's the right time for me.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

Yeah. I get so excited. I think there used to be a world in which, and I don't know if this is true anymore, where you just you wanted your agent to know everything you're working on, so that, oh, yeah, they're in Manhattan, they're having lunch with so and so from Random House, and that editor is like over there chopped salad, is like, I just really wish I had a book about X, and be like, oh, my client, it it has halfway through one of those right now. Let's get you guys together. And and I'm sure to some extent maybe that happens, but I kind of feel like publishers don't really know what they're looking for or what works anymore. And it's just like, I I don't know. It just feels different. If if this is incorrect, if it's exactly like that still, please email me and we will discuss it next time.

SPEAKER_00 35:48

I'll give you, I'll give you a list of five any publishers out there. I've I've got a bunch of ideas. Yeah, also yeah, also we have lots of ideas.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

Please speak with our agent.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

Let us know if that's if that's how it works. I'm here for you. I'm ready.

SPEAKER_02 36:02

There's so it's funny because there's so many people like my agent doesn't live in New York anymore. My editor at um Harper didn't live in New York anymore. Everyone is so dispersed. That era, and my agent he does go back to New York all the time. And he's in LA. It's not like he's like, you know, Nampa, Idaho or something. But it's just different than it was when we started for sure.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

Yeah, absolutely. You did there's no real reason to be here.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

It's time for margin notes. Beautiful. Wow, that's lovely. I see in your notes you saw three plays.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

I saw three plays, and I'm not saying that I saw three plays in like the month since we last recorded. I saw three plays in a week. Oh gosh. I don't know what happened.

SPEAKER_02 36:54

How do you do it just sitting there trapped in a theater?

unknown 37:01

No.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

Sarah. Um for some reason, actually, it came at the perfect time because I, you know, like anyone, like there are times that the the plan, whatever the plan is, I'm like, no, I don't want to do the plan. But actually, like all three of these I was I was pretty excited to go to. Um, and they all were great and really different. So it was a fun theater week. And I mean, I saw three plays in a week, but I it's not like I see plays every week or even every month at all. Um so it's just sort of circumstantial. But but like all you live in New York, so I live in New York and I'm a theater. I went to school for theater. I'm a theater kid. I'm you know, this is my, you know, uh the whole, the whole the best part about quitting theater is getting to enjoy theater. Uh so I really have to take advantage. Um, so I saw Buena Vista Social Club, which was excellent, um, and was really fun because I saw with my my husband. What did they do with the music for the play version of that? It really was more like a concert. It was live musicians on stage, uh, sort of a light story woven in, but it was really I do love that music. I listen to that soundtrack all the time. Unbelievable. I mean 30 years later, whatever it's been, still just holds up, just really beautiful, so moving. Um, yeah, so that was a really fun experience. And then my childhood best friend came into town, and we were actually supposed to see we have like a maybe a list of like 10 movies that are sort of like our movies from growing up. And um, we were supposed to see Beach is the musical, because that's one of our movies, but unfortunately that closed in about three weeks. So we had tickets, but it closed before we were able to see it. So maybe that saved us from something. So we ended up, but weirdly, another one of our 10 movies has also been made into a musical. They're really, I think they're just like diving into our personal movie list. Uh, and so we went to see Death Becomes Her, the musical.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

Oh, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Which was another sort of movie that was very big for us, which kind of looking back, you're like, wow, why were these two like 10-year-olds like so into Death Becomes Her? What a choice. I don't know, but like, I mean, we didn't just watch it. We it lived in our souls. We watched it. Like, I know the beats of that movie very well. Yeah. Um, it was very, very important for us. So, how lucky that we could just, you know, take our refund of the beaches money and put it into Death Becomes Her the musical, which was also just like really fun, really campy. Um, a a real sort of direct interpretation of the movie. Um, and just a fun, a really delightful, if you're looking for like a very fun musical coming into New York. That's that's the one. And fun to see something we cared about so much up on stage. Um, and then the last one uh was a straight play called Indian Princesses, uh, which was based on the playwrights' experience being part of the Indian Princesses, which was a uh cultural appropriation heavy Girl Scouts adjacent group.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

For fathers and daughters.

SPEAKER_02 40:16

People in the 50s and 60s, 40s. I don't know what was going on.

SPEAKER_00 40:23

Oh, this was through the 90s. This was into the 2000s. Yeah, it went on long. It was the play was phenomenal, it was really good, it really investigated a lot of ideas around race and culture, and but also like really was a play about um girlhood friendship. So obviously, right up my alley. And it was all like 25-year-old actresses playing like nine-year-olds.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

Oh fun.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

Uh, which I just loved. It was it was great, it was funny, it was beautifully done. Um, so that was awesome. Um, and then reading-wise, I read Sucker Punch by um Sachi Cole, who is the person that received the email from Mindy West's husband. Um, the kind of person I am. I have to, you know, I was like, okay, that you have to read. Yeah, I had to really go for it. Um, and I listened to that on audio and I really recommend uh that. It was it was great, voicey, um, vulnerable, just like like Lindy's was, just like Lena's was, uh, very honest and open and um self-examining. Uh yeah, I think it fits in well with those, with those memoirs. And if you too have been, you know, needing to just deep dive into that discourse and really understand every aspect of it. I I think it does it it is even more illuminating of like, no, this is a person who does really understand putting yourself out there, flaws and all. Um, and it's so interesting. I think this is where that drama circled around as a Gen X person.

SPEAKER_02 42:01

I just hit my Gen X wall with like, I don't need to know any more about this millennial shit.

SPEAKER_00 42:07

Oh no, I no, listen, anyone else that comes out with any memoir in any way related, I'm gonna I'm gonna forever. I'm a I'm a lifer. Um so yeah, it was that but it was a great, it was a great in independent of the the Lindy West of it all. It's a great memoir.

SPEAKER_02 42:22

Yeah, because she has an interesting story, right?

SPEAKER_00 42:26

Yeah, yeah, very um it was uh you know, an older husband and a um bicultural marriage, uh that that was lasted a pretty short time. And so there's a lot of family and identity. But a divorce relationship. Like a millennial divorce memoir, I guess, would be the yes, although like even more expansive in what it sort of looks at. Um, so that was great. And then I I also had here, does the Statue of Liberty count as media? Um that I guess only in the sense that it is fake news. That's that's true. But uh man, Statue of Liberty is really beautiful. I went, I took a group of second graders there yesterday, and um that is one beautiful, or you were like along for the ride?

SPEAKER_02 43:11

I was a shepherd.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

Okay, yes.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

You know, help helping to invent them by myself.

SPEAKER_00 43:17

Um, no, but I was, you know, that sounded very ambitious. I took a group of second graders. No. Um, I was I was involved in the taking. Did they what did what did they think? They loved it. They absolutely loved it. It was it was good.

SPEAKER_02 43:36

And then did you guys talk about the inscription and what that means?

SPEAKER_00 43:40

And yeah, they've been learning about um in New York City, second grade, the whole year is about New York City and ends, I believe ends on sort of a unit on immigration.

SPEAKER_01 43:51

Okay, perfect.

SPEAKER_00 43:51

Um, so they're very they know more than we, you know. We're like, what does that represent? What does that represent? You know, they know everything they're telling me all about the every representation. On the statue. But man, it's just a beautiful monument. I mean, it's it's just really cool and impressive to be up close to. So that was also really, really fun.

SPEAKER_02 44:07

We have the closest thing we had to that growing up in uh San Francisco was Angel Island. So if Ellis Island is the check-in point for the emigration that was coming that way, uh Angel Island is where people came through on the Pacific side. And that was where a lot of people got their names changed or based, you know, with or without their consent. Um yeah, it's interesting. And we did, I remember doing a field trip out there. There's no statue or anything, but it's a very interesting um bit of history. And if you're ever in the Bay Area, check that out. I think it'd be cool.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

That'd be a cool little bookend for what about you?

SPEAKER_02 44:56

Well, first of all, last episode I when we were talking about memoir, I was like, yeah, and our friend Dan has partially devoured coming out later this year. It's out, it was already out, and so I'm I don't know why I'm holding it up because this is an audio podcast only. I don't buy a ton of hard copy books anymore, but I wanted this one on paper, and um there's something so delicious about reading a memoir written by someone you know. That's fine, and I gotta do it. Dan's like not the most emotive person who shares a lot about his personal life, yeah. And so it's a little bit, I'm only a few chapters in, but it's just like, ooh, and it's already like I know more about him than I've known from from knowing him for the last 10 or 15 years or whatever it is. So, and I'm really enjoying, so it's about uh the subtitle is how Night of the Living Dead Saved My Life and Changed the World. And so I also have never seen Knight of the Living Dead. So I'm watching it the way the book is structured, it's like he's it's like shot by shot. And so I started watching, like, I'm gonna watch this shot and read the part and watch the shot and read the part. And I texted him that I was doing that. He's like, that's insane. Just like watch the whole movie or read the whole book and then like do the other. I was like, like, we'll see. Um, so that's really you know, he's just he's a great writer, yeah. Okay, I saw the documentary The Librarians, which is kind of funny. It was like Memorial Day weekend, and my husband and I were like cruising the Roku, like, oh, what's out? What's new? What's available? And we thought we're gonna watch like a fun popcorn movie. But then I saw, oh, the librarians. I want to see that because I remembered when it was in theaters here, it had like a limited theatrical release. So that's a documentary about this group of librarians, mostly in Texas, fighting the how shall we say the right wing demand, I was gonna say pressure, like demands to remove certain materials from public and school libraries, and like how school boards are playing into that, and it is very bleak, but it's almost like not as bleak as it should have been. Because I think it's trying to have a narrative where it's like, and like these are the heroes, and like people are fighting for this, and we're gonna end on a hopeful note, but it's actually so bad because what the main takeaway, and I think probably people listening to this podcast already know this, but if you don't, like this is not an organic movement by parents who are like, I'm concerned about what my kid is reading. This is an organized effort by people with a lot of money and their political packs and like backing candidates, all this stuff. It's it's an organized effort, and then they use the mothers like the is it mothers? I was gonna say mothers against liberty. That is literally what they are, but that is not what they're called. Moms for liberty. That is accurate. Um, using them, you know, it's like, oh, this is just concerned moms. It's not good movie, and also just sort of touches on uh what we were talking about with the ambassador for children's lit saying something that was not that helpful in a time when children's books, particularly are already under this extreme attack, and in this weird way, because of the pace at which news is moving in the last five years. I remember when this was like the story that was like every day. Yeah, like these very contentious school board meetings, screaming matches, librarians getting their lives threatened, all this stuff. What I'm saying is watching the documentary felt like oh yeah, like that. Because now we've are we've also since then had like ice, the war, you know, all this stuff is just like happening at this incredibly rapid pace where it's hard to just even sit with one thing and go, this is still happening, this is still terrible. Yeah. Anyway, it's available on Canopy and I think elsewhere if anyone wants to see that, but gird your loins. I was listening to the audiobook of Dracula by Bram Stoker. I've never read.

SPEAKER_00 49:21

Interesting. Have you ever read it? What a horror kind of you're having a very horror-heavy. I guess um little moments. It felt so modern.

SPEAKER_02 49:29

It's really interesting. I'd be curious, even if you just read like the first 10 or 15 pages, there's something about it that feels so modern. It there's like this one character is writing a letter. It's a lot told in like letters and lab notes and news articles. Um I didn't know that. Neither did I. And there's this character who's right who's like writing in his journal, and he's like remarking on like, and I ate this meal and that meal, and like, oh, I must send this recipe back to Mina, you know. My so that she'd, you know, she can cook this for me later, or like she'd be interested in this. It just sounded weirdly modern. And then I had to quit the audiobook because whoever they had reading um the count was doing such a heavy accent, and I guess this is traditionally how it's done, but I'm just gonna have to read it. I'm gonna have to read the actual book because it was too many accents for me to deal with.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 50:29

Lastly, did you ever watch the comeback when it was on originally? Yeah. Did you watch the most recent season?

SPEAKER_00 50:35

No, I've watched the two, and then we plan to watch the most recent one.

SPEAKER_02 50:39

Um and and what's interesting, and people don't know, that there was season one and two were like 20 years ago. Yeah, and season three. And we're 10 years apart. Yeah. And so here we are again. And what's great about this season is it's so much about AI, all the stuff we're talking about with what it is, what it's doing, what it's taking. And of course, it's just funny because it's the comeback and it's poignant. It's good. Um, really enjoyed. It's not too long, it's like I forget how many episodes, but it's pretty efficient.

SPEAKER_00 51:13

Contained. Pretty efficient. Oh, I'm excited to watch that. But you know, it's summer, so Love Island is gonna take over my life, unfortunately. Corey. I'm so sorry. Well, I think I just want to be open and honest.

SPEAKER_02 51:27

I think like I say that, but like my equivalent of that is just like the worst, most shallow, not well-made, true crime. Yeah, it's all the same. Exactly. It's well, it's not the same. They're both bad in their own ways, they're both uniquely bad. Yes, and we enjoy them, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 51:51

Um I can watch Love Island. I saw three plays.

SPEAKER_02 51:57

Oh, I get it. I get it now. Okay, I'll finish Dracula. And then you can watch whatever you want. That's a good point. Uh, what are you staring down for the next couple weeks?

SPEAKER_00 52:09

Yeah, I mean, so school ends June 26th, um, when the summer is halfway over for everyone else. So I am hoping to have, like I said, a draft by June 26th. I don't know that that's reasonable. Um, I travel next week uh upstate to do an event and to also hopefully get some really focused writing time. So I'm hoping I take advantage. I booked two nights away when the event is just one night, and I'm really hoping I buckle down and like get in a really serious zone.

SPEAKER_02 52:44

Imagine being able to come back at our next recording and be like, I finished.

SPEAKER_00 52:49

That would be really exciting. I that would feel really good, especially if I feel the way I do now, where I'm like, I did it. I'm on two feet, it it works, it has what it needs to have. I would love to feel that way.

SPEAKER_02 53:02

That is kind of still like where I am with my book. I still just feel like if I could go away for five to ten days, I would just get this whole thing done. Yeah, if I just didn't have anything else coming at me. And I think I can. I I think I can do that after after summer. I think I can do that, and I think I will do that. What do you what do you have going on? Well, just continuing to peck away at the book, but kind of shifting my attention to getting ready for this workshop I'm teaching in San Diego next month, and just excited. It's kind of the the the class slash workshop. It's a fiction workshop, it's called the human point of view, and it it is kind of just drilling down on what is it that humans can uniquely and specifically do in creative writing that that AI could never, no matter how good it gets, cannot do because it uh has no mind or soul. But I think there's still room in that workshop if anyone's interested in that. Uh, you can go to my website, I think, and look at the calendar, or go to my Instagram and look at the links and bio. I have it somewhere. And I've been alone. My husband is away doing his family stuff, and I've been blessedly, just blissfully, peacefully alone. I love it so much, and I feel a deep peace. And and at the writer's circle, another thing is like this actually all relates to what I was saying at the beginning. We're doing like a summer, we like to have these little challenges every couple months. We have like a little focus, little challenge. We're doing a summer focus on essentialism. Uh, and I'm using that title. That is like one of those airport books that could have been an article, but that's just sort of a springboard text. And then I'm bringing in like Jenny Odell's How to Do Nothing. Um, then we're gonna like do some poetry, but just kind of I personally am trying to figure out what what is actually most essential to me and my creative life because I'm right now I'm doing too much, I'm overextended. This has to stop. I can't be teaching workshops, I can't be honestly can't be running a community. Like I have created a life for myself where I just have all this homework. Yeah. Which it is meaningful. It's not not meaningful, but is it the most essential thing I need to do with the time, not just the time I have day to day and week to week, but the time I have left in my human lifespan. And I know this is big, you know, this is big stuff, but I'm turning 56 in October, and I just feel like 56 to 66. Uh I don't want to be doing anything that does not fall into that. This is the most essential thing. And so I have to take a hard stare at a lot of stuff. Anyway, we're doing that in the writer's circle. And if you want to join, this is a great time to become a member. You can join in. Again, you can find out more about that at sarazar.com. Where can people find out more about you and your work?

SPEAKER_00 56:08

Cory AnnHeydu.com is somewhat up to date. I do my best. And you can always get me on Instagram, Corianne Haydu. Same with my Substack, which I'm pretty regular, about once a month-ish, sending out. And it's free. And uh you can continue to order Mothers and Mother's Strangers. Never stop.

SPEAKER_02 56:30

Never stop ordering. Never stop ordering our books. Which actually, this is something I keep forgetting about because I because my next book is coming from a different publisher, and so I keep forgetting that my last middle grade, Kira just for today, it is getting a paperback. There's just been this gap because in the middle of that book, my imprint moved from HarperCollins to McMillan. And I stayed, my book stayed with the HarperCollins side. And so there was like some movement that had to happen. So the paperback will be coming out with Clarion. So the hardback was Balzer and Bray. Oh, so it's just been like there's a gap, but it will be in paperback in the year 2027.

unknown 57:16

That's great.

SPEAKER_02 57:17

No, it is great. Hopefully, they'll find a new life, new audience. But um, yeah, boy, things are slow in this business sometimes. Well, it was great to talk, and um, I'll see you back here in a couple weeks. Can't wait.