Still Writing
Corey Ann Haydu and Sara Zarr are two mid-career novelists who have lived through industry shifts, burnout, reinvention, and the constant recalibration that comes with staying in a creative career. They get together every couple of weeks to ask each other: are we still writing?
Still Writing
8. Mid-Season Finale
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Before the podcast goes on summer hiatus, Corey turns in a book and Sara is overwhelmed and recording at the co-working space with a respectfully low voice. Also: a new secret question.
Some Margin Notes:
- Goodbye from Nowhere by Sara
- Making Pretty by Corey
- The Correspondent by Virginia Evans - book.
- Disclosure Day! It's a movie.
- The Reservation by Rebecca Kauffman. Another book!
- First America with Rebecca Nagle / American Hysteria with Chelseas Weber-Smith - podcasts.
- Couples Therapy - TV show!
- Stevie Wonder (Songs in the Key of Life on repeat)
More about Sara Zarr
More about Corey Ann Haydu
Still Writing is produced by Sara Zarr and Corey Ann Haydu, and edited by Sara Zarr. Find it wherever you get podcasts. If you like it, consider leaving a review and sharing with a friend!
Theme music: Creative Commons Deep Friendship by Lobo Loco is licensed under CC BY-NC-SA 4.0
Hi, I'm Corey Ann Haydu, and I write for children, young adults, and adults.
SPEAKER_00I'm Sarah Czar and I write mostly fiction, mostly about adolescence. And you are listening to Still Writing. And I would like to ask Cory, are you still writing?
SPEAKER_01I am still writing. I am thank you. Um, yeah, I actually I have a big, big piece of news, which is that I this morning turned in the middle grade draft.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01I know I actually thank you. I listened to um the episode of our podcast earlier this week, um, of last week's episode, and I uh heard you saying it, like, wouldn't it be so cool if next episode you could say you turned it in and it was like 10 45 this morning and I was like, oh my gosh, I I think I can do it, and then I'll get to do that thing. And I actually think I wouldn't have done it today. I would have like done some more doubly dabbling and you know, found some random thing I had to book or look at or think about. Um, but I had that voice in my head and was like, I want no, I I want to do the thing Sarah said.
SPEAKER_00Uh now that you've done it, does it feel as cool as you thought it would?
SPEAKER_01So cool. Um, but no, it feels really good. It's really short, which is extremely exciting for me. Um, noted like 90,000, you know, I love, I love reading them. Writing them, I'm always like, want a 90,000-word middle grade novel? And everyone's like, no. So this is under 50,000 words, which is huge. Perfect. Yeah. So who knows what the, you know, what my editor will say, and I'm sure she'll say this needs to be beefed up or whatever, but I've got a little bit of wiggle room. We're only publishing things under 35,000 words now. Um, but you know, it gives me a lot of wiggle room when I revise to have it still be a short book, even if I really needed to like beef up certain areas. Um, so I'm feeling good about it. I'm I'm feeling impressed with myself. Like I really did start that thing from scratch um back in like I think late February is when I sent in the the sort of okay, let's start over. Here's a new pitch. Um, so I'm I'm feeling really good about it.
SPEAKER_00Like late February 2026? Yeah. Oh my God, Corey, amazing.
SPEAKER_01I I really don't, I don't know how it happened, but um I'm feeling I'm feeling really good about it. So that was satisfying and it was um, like I said, in part because of those words in my head. And also I did have that little retreat slash book event slash time to see some friends um last week upstate at a the event was at an incredible bookstore that I'll give a shout out to in case anyone is anywhere near Kingston, New York. Um, it's called Rough Draft, and it's like a bar coffee shop bookstore with big windows and just in this beautiful old stone um building. I I believe it's moving in about a year or so, um, but into another also like beautiful old building, from what I understand. But wonderful staff, wonderful, had an incredible, they do little lattes that have literary themed seasonal lattes. So I had a June air latte, and I highly recommend that.
SPEAKER_00Um I thought you were gonna say that like the latte art was somehow literary themed, and then it was gonna be like wow.
SPEAKER_01That would be very cool. Um, but no, so it was great. And I I got some really good writing time in uh along with like the book event and seeing friends and um sort of wandering around Kingston a bit as well. Uh so I think the the combination of having your voice in my head and having that time away uh gave me the the push I needed.
SPEAKER_00That's amazing. Congratulations. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01I'm so and now I get to work on shiny new ideas. So exciting. That's the best part of turning in a book. It really is.
SPEAKER_00You're like, well, that's not my problem anymore.
SPEAKER_01Really take all the time you need. I love when an editor comes back and is like, I'm so sorry. Like it's gonna be months, two months. And you're like, please take your time. All the time you need. Uh yeah. So so what about you? Are you still writing?
SPEAKER_00Uh I'm I'm I wanna be as rigorously honest as possible. Yeah. I'm gonna say no, um, just temporarily because I've really shifted gears to planning this workshop that I'm teaching in a few weeks. I'm completely overwhelmed. Oh no. Not by that specifically, but just life. Like this week, I just feel I talked about this a little bit last time, but just uh it's more so I feel a little bit at the end of my rope. Not in a way that anyone should be worried. I just mean like practically with the time available in a day and the things that I am committed to do. Yeah. I'm it's it's bad, actually. So I have to remember for future me that once July is over and a couple big things are done, I have to kind of reshape my life and some of my commitments because yeah, I'm just I'm I'm very overwhelmed. Oh, I hate it when Zoom like detects that you put your hand up and it's like Sarah has a question. It's like because I'm just like specifying. I'm like, stop. I'm holding up my hand, like I need the world to stop. Yes, lower hands. That's really annoying. That's really annoying. Go away. Um yeah, so I'm just I'm overwhelmed and just trying to like knock down the things that I need to get done.
SPEAKER_01Is it the shifting into that workshop planning mode? With is that like the straw that broke the camel's back sort of situation? Yes, yes. It's like one too many different types of things.
SPEAKER_00Because you suddenly go, Oh, I'm gonna have 10 people in a room for a week who have paid a lot of money to be there, and you just need to remember, like, you know, it's not like it's gonna take tons of detailed planning. It's just like it's the psychic awareness of it, just sort of mental burden. It's like preparing for a residency or something where it's like, I've done it a million times. I know it's gonna be fine, maybe even great, but it's good and great because I thought about it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you ha there's no getting around the work upfront aspect of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, once it's happening, it's gonna be fine. But like I've got some, you know, pages to read and like structure to think through and just kind of having some kind of generative activity every day and getting a sense of the levels across the class because it's not a you know, it's just kind of open to all. So you always get a wide variety of stuff. But I am also look really looking forward to it because there's a few people I've had either at my MFA workshops when I taught there or in previous other settings. So there's like three or four people that I actually know that are gonna be in there, which is gonna be great. So yeah, I'm really looking forward to that. And it's funny, the conference organizers just emailed me yesterday with like, you have a like you have a TA for your workshop. Uh, we're gonna introduce you to your TA. And I'm like, a TA? Like, what am I gonna do with that person?
SPEAKER_01Like that, instead of helping, that's feeling more like more work.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's funny. We uh sh the TA and I emailed today, and she's like a very experienced publishing professional. Okay. Um and I think I don't really know what the whole scenario is. I think she was maybe stepping in for a friend or something. And I was like, I probably you can probably just have the mornings to work on your own stuff because she we were just talking about our different deadlines. And uh I'm like, I've never had a TA before. I like it might make me more nervous if you're sitting there in the room. Anyway, I think it's gonna be it's gonna be great. She's like, there if I need help, but more I would like her to be able to just work on her own thing. Or as I was joking with her, once I saw her experience, I was like, you could teach the class and I could have a writing retreat. Um anyway, that's been great. And I like sent a check-in email to my editor today to just be like, hey, um just so you know, like July, I'm not doing any work on this in July, like in case nice, you know, it's just like saying how it's going and just I'm about to take a break and I'll come be commencing work on it in August because there's just other things that need to be attended to. Um I mean, there's also my mom's having a pretty major surgery uh like next weekend. My sister will be there for that, but I want to go for the follow-up appointment that happens later. And I also want to be ready in case anything goes wrong. I'm like ready to just go, you know.
SPEAKER_01So that just is in your brain too. Like it even if there's nothing to do list-wise with that, it's um yeah, adds adds to overwhelm really swiftly.
SPEAKER_00And I think it's gonna be like that until she's gone. It's the same with my in-laws, it's just yeah, everyone, they're all 90.
SPEAKER_01And so from now until whenever the end is, it's gonna be a thing that's like a background noise in the back or that's something that could at any time become funny. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. What is what's the thing that's been bugging me the most? Having a job. Which again, as always, I'm so grateful for, but I do not have time for it.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Do you are you feeling sad about taking July off from writing type stuff?
SPEAKER_00I wasn't, and then you asked me that, and filling with tears.
SPEAKER_01Oh no, I'm so sorry. What did I do?
SPEAKER_00I think it's not so much that I'm feeling sad about July. Yeah. I'm just feeling sad in general that I currently don't have the time to work in the way that I want to work. Yeah. And I know that so many writers are in that boat. So I'm not gonna like complain about it. I'm just acknowledging that yeah, I just kind of thought when I went back to work that nothing was gonna change. You know, I would told myself when I realized I had to get a job, I told myself, well, nothing has to change. I can still do everything that I'm doing now. And then for 40 hours of it, I'll just be going to this job. That won't change anything. And and that in fact is not the case. Yeah. So and it's taken me a couple years to realize that, I guess. But just reality, just reality of space and time is getting me down.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it I I understand that. I feel that not like this exact moment, but in a lot of different moments that comes for me too.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, so I I I know the feeling you're talking about. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, I'm sure in your era when you had two much younger kids at the same time, I'm sure you were just like, please, God.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you're just looking, you're like looking for the you're like, so where is it? Where like I just yeah, that's the image I get in my head is sort of looking around for like the little exit space for me to do the thing I want to do, and it's just not there. And that's like a very overwhelming feeling.
SPEAKER_00True, true. Um, one thing I did, I have this under current events. It's a real it's a real loose, it's a loose topic of ours. It can mean almost anything. It could mean anything. My current event is I think I officially left Instagram. Like I I didn't delete all my posts or delete my account, but I deleted most of my old posts and logged out and cleared all the meta cookies and everything off my wow, all my devices and browsers. I just got mad. I just got mad at Meta because I logged into Instagram one day and it was like, just so you know, you you have like less control now over you know how our little cookies track your activities off the app. I was like, you know what? No, thank you. Yeah. And I know all the companies are like that and it's like playing whack-a-mole, but I haven't enjoyed being on Instagram for a long time. Other than like, I love sharing pictures from my life, but in terms of like being a writer and like seeing everyone else's stuff and the time it takes and the different things that come up and the way people communicate with you on the app. Um I'm logged out and I may never be back. So I'm excited for you. This segues nicely into um You know, that means I'm not gonna be out there like sharing podcast updates and clips. So you just gotta really make sure you're subscribed. Not you, Corey. Listeners, um, if you're not subscribed, you might forget to check for new episodes. So yes.
SPEAKER_01I try to post um, you know, weekly the a reminder um when the new episode comes out, but I don't have your little skills to actually make it a clip.
SPEAKER_00I actually need to send you a clip from the most recent one. I was trying to make one and I was having trouble, and I had to email Buzz Sprout support, and they were like, you could tell they thought it was a me problem. And then he's like, tell me exactly like what where you're trying to start it and where you're trying to end it, and I'll do it for you. I'm like, okay. So then next day I got an email. It's like, yeah, that didn't work for me either. Like, I gotta take this to the developers. I'm like, mm-hmm. So supposedly they fixed it. So I'll try again and we'll post a little link. Um, do you have any current events? I or any thoughts about current events?
SPEAKER_01I don't think I do. I again, because I was listening to our old episode, I wanted to just point out that New York City public schools are still not on summer vacation. As we record, as we record. Um, so really that's all that's all that's going on in my personal world, and that sort of limits my ability to do much thinking about the world outside of my personal world. Yeah, just finishing up the last couple days here and um getting ready for summer.
SPEAKER_00And that brings us to the the little announcement that like what I was just saying about July, we're not recording new episodes in July. So this podcast is gonna be on a brief hiatus. We'll probably, I probably wouldn't expect a new episode to be up until like mid-August. Um, you know, just depending, and maybe not even then. Maybe this is gonna be like July and August are off, and then we're back to it when school's back in. This is episode eight. I think that's pretty good considered I think we just started like in March or something. We've done great. Yeah, so little hiatus, eight episodes season, a little hiatus, and then back at it in August, but uh uh probably September for when you'd actually see an episode in your feed. Does that work for you, Corey?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's fine. Um, we can, you know, we can talk offline. Um I have I have flexibility until or we could do podcast admin right here in the episode. Let's just do it. Let's get into it, guys. Everyone pull out their calendars. We're gonna start figuring out our next recording date.
SPEAKER_00Uh but yeah, so just be prepared for that. And during that time, um go off and live your lives.
SPEAKER_01So I don't have current events, but I do have a secret question. I'm so excited. I know we need like a wind chime um sound effect. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I'll add that to my list of things to do, Corey.
SPEAKER_01I know, I know you're a little overwhelmed. Um, but this is pretty important to me. Um, okay, so I have a secret question I've been excited about. I want it, I want you to answer it in sort of whatever way it interests you or it, you know, clicks for you. Because this could mean several different things. I am curious if you could return to any project, any of your published books, and either revisit that world in some way, add to the book, like rethink something about the book, uh revisit some part of the process. Like, is there a book that you would love to dive back into either either because of how the process was, or there's more you would want to investigate about that project? Um yeah.
SPEAKER_00That is a great question, and it's hard because immediately my mind goes to things I want to do over on. Yeah. Um which is a valid.
SPEAKER_01That's I meant you that's why I said like answer thing. Like it could be a do-over thing, or it could be like a some other reason you want to.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but then I was also thinking like stories I've wanted to extend or, you know, like write sequels for. But in the spirit of the secret question, I'm only gonna pick one direction and not answer it every single way. So I'll just go with my initial gut feeling, which is more in the do-over vein, um, or just a different process or a different feeling about it. Or I wish I was doing it at a different time, is goodbye from nowhere. That's my last YA.
SPEAKER_01As soon as you started talking about as soon as you started framing it, I was like, I know what you're gonna say.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Like I there's so much I love about that book, but it it couldn't quite be what I wanted it to be, and there were a lot of reasons for that. That compounded with it coming out in April 2020. Yep. Um and I just feel like I didn't have an opportunity to give it the TLC on release that I would have liked to, or like talk about it in the way that I wanted to. And I felt, you know, this is like no shade to my publisher other than the shade uh all publishers. Yeah, publishing. You know, I just didn't feel supported, I didn't feel understood. Well, like I said, it just wasn't quite what I wanted it to do, you know, because it went from like a many multi, multi-points of view project down to one. And I part of that was just like the time it would have taken to do it the way I kind of originally envisioned. But in the particular publishing and editorial situation I was in, I think was just prohibitive to being able to do that. So it was kind of like controlling the project or making it I don't know, I didn't feel it wasn't like an expansive, permissive process. Got it. Either and part of that came from within me, and part of it came from my editor situation.
SPEAKER_01Um can I ask at what point did it move from like that really like many points of view? Like where did the where did that structural choice change? Where in the process? What did you have to start really limiting yourself?
SPEAKER_00I don't know that I ever finished a draft that had like the nine cousins points of view. I mean, I think I quickly realized like it was too many. And then when starting to pick, it was like, how do I pick? Because I like them all. So then it just kind of came down to the main two cousins that end up being the focus of the final version. So then it was like kind of a dual point of view with the two cousins. Yeah. Um but then the the one, the female cousin, her arc was not as clear to me as the male cousin. Um, and so I thought, well, I can bring in her story and her storyline through his point of view, and that'll, you know, work. But what I really wanted the way I really like envisioned it, and I think it goes back to my love of multi-generational big novels like Anne Patchett Commonwealth or Angela Flournoy The Turner House. Um there's a Stuart O'Nan one, I think it's called Wish You Were Here, where it's just like you get everybody's point of view. So it was like the generation of cousins that were like the YA focus was one. But then the generation of siblings that were their parents was another whole thing I wanted to go with. And then the generation that was their parents and their aunt, I wanted to get into all their.
SPEAKER_01I'm like already getting excited. I'm already like, yeah, yeah, I want all of that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So that is one where I actually do sometimes play with like different stories from the different of the adult characters that I didn't get to go into. Yeah. I don't know. It just it all just felt like kind of a bummer, and especially with it ending with the pandemic publishing date, and then it was like the end. Did you hear that? No.
SPEAKER_02Okay, good.
SPEAKER_01So you said that as a truck was driving by outside my window, and I'm like, I don't think that's what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_00For listeners, one reason I'm talking in a slightly lower voice, I think. Um I had to quickly leave home and come to a co-working space because there was construction going on downstairs from me in an unexpected way. So now I'm in like a little private booth at the co-working space, but then occasionally like a door slams or something. So also I'm trying not to talk too loud. But I'm leaning into the microphone. Um, so yeah, I think that's the that's the gut answer. I mean, with every book, I feel like I want to keep writing about these characters.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But that one, that's kind of that one's kind of a pain point. Like when I think about it, I go, oof. Also, there's just like, I don't know what happened, but like there's a typo on like page three, and then there's like one weird little section near the end that feels like like the copy edited things and the old version are there. Yeah. I was reading it out loud at an event once, and I was like, oh God, what happened here? And that kind of stuff happens, but you know, and I can't blame anyone because I mean, you know, you know how it is, like you get you get final eyes on it, but it just gets hard to see stuff. So yeah, that's the sad truth about that book.
SPEAKER_01I really hope you get to write like a one of those big multi-generational books someday. I just would love, I man, I I would read that so fast for me. Like, if you were to say, like, oh, like Sarazar's latest is gonna be this huge, like billion perspective multi-generational book. I'd be like, oh my god, like I need it right now.
SPEAKER_00Well, you know how they say, like, there is a reader for every book. I'm I'm the reader. So unfortunately, that doesn't get you book contracts. No, I guess not, but come on. Corey wants to read it. Exactly. That's one that's one $2 royalty for me. If you get the hardcover. Of course I would. How about you? What's your answer to this?
SPEAKER_01Because I bet you've been thinking about it for a couple weeks. I I have. And there's, you know, like you, there's a couple directions I could go from sort of like processes or receptions or things like that. But the one that keeps coming up for me is it might not be my least read book, but it's in contention for my least read book. It was my 2015 YA, which was a YA called Making Pretty. Um, and it is a novel about a teenage girl whose dad is a plastic surgeon. Um and is dating a like, you know, a much younger woman who the, you know, like a sort of 20-something woman, um, and is really involved in very, very making his daughter very aware in sort of what he would change about her and um the dynamics therein. So, you know, in 2015, I was what, like 32. Um, and it was a really, you know, it was 11 years ago, so it was like different time. So your first child wasn't even born yet. No, I wasn't even married. Um I wasn't married, I didn't have a kid. Um, was I engaged? No, I wasn't engaged. Like it was so long ago, um, in sort of in my life. Uh and the conversation on plastic surgery obviously was there, but was really different. Like we're we're so much further along that uh that train that's gone real, real fast. Um and my relationship with like myself was different. Like I just feel like I have more, so much more perspective on I mean, obviously on aging and on my relationship with looking in the mirror is different. My understanding of the push-pull of wanting to change and not wanting to change, um, wanting to accept and not wanting to accept like physical things is so much more complicated and like fraught. And I just feel like I'm like, oh my gosh, I have so much more to say now than I did then. And I also just really love the idea. I think like at its core, like a teenage girl with a dad who is a plastic surgeon um that specializes in sort of not, you know, in I can't come up with the words.
SPEAKER_00Trying to think of like some PC way to talk about it, but I don't know why. Just like aesthetic, aesthetic modification, not like reparation.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Yes. I just feel like at its core, that's such an interesting dynamic. And um I I wish, you know, I just wish that could have gotten more readers because it's something I care about a lot, but also I'm just like, oh, there that at the heart, that is like a really great character-driven problem. Um, and such a great like canvas on which to explore what it means, what the male gaze means, and um what your relationship with how you look means and how it shifts over time. So I just have so much more to say about it, both because of who I am now and where culture is now, and just having more time to have like thought about it.
SPEAKER_00I mean, you know, there's a sequel, like an adult novel sequel. Like maybe that character is like 25 now, and the dad is on a subsequent young, you know, just like a rotation of young lives. And I don't know, maybe there's something there.
SPEAKER_01Totally. Or and I think even from scratch, there's like the potential of me writing something with some of those basic dynamics in place that I yeah, that's from an adult perspective. I do think I would love to write about plastic surgery and modification and the male gaze again from the perspective of, you know, someone in their in their 40s rather than um a teenager. And and and then have those two things engage. It's just so interesting. Like the at both ages, and at every age, there's like anxiety around appearance. And I'm so interested now in my 40s at how different it is than the anxiety around it at you know, 16 and the ways in which it's harder and the ways in which it's easier. And that's it's so interesting to me.
SPEAKER_00There's also that phenomenon of being in your 40s and looking back at pictures of you from earlier times when like you know that in the moment of those earlier times you thought you were hideous.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And you look back at yourself and you're like, you were so beautiful. Yeah, and you were just like perfect. You're fine. What are you doing? Yep. Why did you hate that picture when now you're like, this is my favorite picture of myself.
SPEAKER_01A hundred percent. A hundred percent. So sad.
SPEAKER_00Yes. My mood is low today, so everything's just gonna seem formally kind of a bummer.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, so I would love, I would love to I wish I could start that project over again. Not because I'm not happy with how it turns out. I just I would love to write it again. I don't, you know, I yeah, I would just write it all over again and and sort of see what else is there. Um, but yeah, maybe in the future, another plastic surgery inspired novel.
SPEAKER_00And it's it's hard. I think I'm always hesitant to say, like, oh, I regret this about Xbook, or I didn't like how Xbook turned out because you're you're giving people a reason to not like it. You know what I mean? Like kind of like saying, yeah, that one's not my best work. But but it was the best you could do at the time in the circumstance you were in. So I never want to like like treat one of my old books like that, you know.
SPEAKER_01So it's hard to no, but I also think it's a compliment. The one you want to return to is not the one you like the least, it's probably one that has like a lot you love in it. Like, yeah, you know, there I I would not ask the question, what one do you not want to return to? Because I feel like that would more reveal like which one you feel like that one, you know. Um, the ones we want to return to are ones that really had something. And you know you're as a person and as a writer, like further along in your journey. And so there's like, I want to go back there. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I'm having a lot of feelings today. Oh, I also I wanted to go back and say back in the like writing update, because it it relates to this long conversation we had last time about when do you show stuff and how do you know when you're ready to write it and all that. So I did have a talk with my agent about the two things that I sent him. It turned out that he really liked both of them. And so I actually forgot that I did work on one of those last week quite a bit because there was one where like I think I mentioned in in one of the episodes, like this one's probably already too late to write because it's about a very timely topic. But he was like, actually, if you could move quickly on this, we can at least try and to float this. So I actually am working on that, but I forgot because I'm too busy to even remember like what I did yesterday. Oh, I'm so glad that you did. You are still writing. Yeah, that's my revised answer to that question.
SPEAKER_01Did you write like chapters or did you write like brainstormy stuff?
SPEAKER_00They were chapters. Yeah. Cool. It's chapters. So I'm trying to just like write a little more of the actual story. Yeah. Like it's a perfect example of the kind of thing. If I didn't have a job right now, yeah, I would be like, okay, I'm just gonna like set aside two days. Jump right in and like get this as put together as is possible in this time, and like let's float it and see what happens. But with my current schedule, I'm just like, I can't do that because I have to do this other stuff that's happening, not like spend time on a thing that's a possibility.
SPEAKER_01That's what's hard. Oh, that one kind of hit me. Yeah, yeah. It's like doing the things that are you're not getting to focus on like the hope and the possibility and the wonder and all of that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's just like you can only do the things that are already on the to-do list. Yeah. Well, do we feel like we answered your secret question or do you want to talk about it more? No, I think we did. I'm really glad. I'm really glad I asked that one. I I um yeah, I like thinking about it. I don't like thinking about it because I want to always be perfect and look at the past and say I did everything perfectly. No notes.
SPEAKER_01Well, I'll try to think of a secret question next time that better gets at that for you. Sarah, Sarah, in what ways have you just been amazing? Oh, that would be a tough one too, because there's just so many to choose from. Um, what kind of stuff have you been consuming media-wise this week?
SPEAKER_00Well, since we last talked, a few things have come to mind. Currently, I'm reading, and I know this is a huge book, so it's not like some little niche recommendation. Um, The Correspondent. Yay. Uh I'm blanking on the author's name and I didn't put it in the notebook. Virginia Evans maybe. There's birds on the cover. I did not know what it was because I tend to I don't like to read flap copy too much. It's like I don't really like watching movie trailers. Like, I just want to I just want to know if it's for me and then I'm gonna read it. So this book is entirely letters, emails, letters. So the whole story of the main character and a lot of other people is being told through this correspondence. Yep. And I love it. I'm so glad. I love it. I'm listening to it on audio. Is that how you did it? No, I read that one. Well, this is the only drawback of audio for this kind of book is that the reader has to read all the things that are on the page. So it's like it's got the address, the email timestamp, the subject line on every single, you know, every couple pages. Oh my gosh. When you're reading, your eyes can kind of just gimmicks. I glaze right over that. Yeah. But it's it's my bedtime listen, and I it's when I can't have my eyes open anymore. So that's not an option. Uh button. Is it a celebrity?
SPEAKER_01Is it a celebrity reading it? I've I've heard talk of it being like a the reader is excellent.
SPEAKER_00The main reader is excellent, but then there's a different reader for every single letter that's not her. So all the stuff that she's receiving from other people it is acted by a different voice actor. So that's exactly and there are some famous people in there. In there. Okay. Maybe that's what I'm thinking of. It's it's really good. It's one of those, like a popular book, a book that's getting a lot of buzz and is popular and selling well, is also a very good book. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Which is you can feel really good about it. No, but you can feel really good about that one. And like in sort of in every way, like it's a unlikely narrator and a I don't know. Yeah, I'm so happy that book has done so well.
SPEAKER_00I think I will after this busy period of my life subsides, I will pick up the hard copy and revisit some of the sections. I'm not done with it yet. So and then I was very excited that I got to go see disclosure day on opening day, Steven Spielberg's new movie. But it's caused a bit of an existential crisis because I loved it so much. And it's I'm having I'm having a problem with the rest of society. This occasionally happens. Let's see. This happens to me when like there's a movie that everyone loves and I think is bad. Okay. Or it happens to me when there's a movie that I think is great that people are just being dismissive of. And this kind of brings up both those things because when Project Hail Mary first came out, I went and saw that. And with apologies to everyone who loved it, I thought it was so dumb, did not like it, didn't seem good. I I can completely appreciate Ryan Gosling, and I think he did great with what he was given. Yeah. I do not think that movie is good, and I don't understand why so many people think it's great. And so it's just one of those things. I'm one of those IMDB people. I like to look up oh, what are what's the general response to this movie? And that one has like an eight point something average rating. And then Disclosure Day, I absolutely loved, and it's got like it's in the sixes, its overall average rating. And I'm just like, what do people want? I don't understand. Disclosure day, it's like it's Steven Spielberg, it's John Williams score, action, yeah, relationships, excitement, mysterious things happening. Yeah, the last 10 minutes, it's like whatever. The least believable thing about it is that anyone would actually care about what happens in the movie if it happened in real life. I this isn't really a spoiler, but something happens at the end and the world kind of comes to a standstill to pay attention to it. That would never happen. But um I just loved it and I don't understand people's tastes. And it and it shouldn't bother me. But it just it bums me out because I start going, are we just is this like because we're very dumbed down and people adults want entertainment that's more geared toward adolescence because it's like Marvel movies and all that stuff have conditioned them to want like a simpler. I don't know. I love disclosure day, and in fact, I'm gonna see it again today because my husband was out of town when it came out, and I went and I wanted to see it opening day, so he hasn't seen it. We're gonna go see it this afternoon. Oh my gosh, I hope he likes it. What if he doesn't like it? He will. Okay, good. Because he had the same response as me to Project Hell Mary. Okay, so we were like laughing at parts where we shouldn't have been laughing that were supposed to be poignant, and it's just like I don't know. So I know a lot of people loved that movie, and I and I apologize. Interestingly, I've kind of felt the same way about The Martian, which was also based on an Andy Weir book. Yeah. And I didn't really like The Martian, and everyone loved that movie. And as much as I like Matt Damon, I didn't like The Martian. I think Andy Weir is not for me. Okay. And then okay, a couple more real quick. Too late, I know. But um, I'm a fan of the podcast American Hysteria with Chelsea Weber Smith. Uh, they had on Rebecca Nagel, who just started her own podcast called First America. And it ties into what we were talking about last time about Indian princesses, because uh Rebecca Nagel is native and just kind of talking about the role in the American imagination about Native people versus the role in reality, um, and particularly around you know, coming up to the America 250 celebration. So Rebecca Nagel's new podcast is First America, and then the interview with Rebecca Nagel is on American hysteria. And then lastly, Stevie Wonder. I've just been listening to a lot of Stevie Wonder and thinking a lot about Stevie Wonder. I love it. He's like in his 70s, and he started his recording career when he was 12. Wow. And every decade of my like childhood, especially, but he just had. The most like if I had to pick one artist, and like I really had to think about it, and pick one artist who has had the most number of songs that I like, it might be Stevie Wonder. He's so interesting because he's one of those people, like he's just around. He doesn't make a big deal about himself. But when you listen to his catalog and go back from the very beginning, I'm I mean, granted, I'm not familiar with what like what he's done like in the last 10 years, but just one of the greatest of all time songwriters and performers. Just in general, I'm listening to a lot of classic soul, which is to me like what summer is. Um so you know, there's some good stations on the various streaming platforms for classic soul reminds me of my childhood, reminds me of summer, and just some of the greatest music that has ever come out of this country or from humanity as a whole. How about you? What are you into?
SPEAKER_01So I just finished a book called The Reservation that's by an author I'm really enjoying in general, Rebecca Kaufman. Um, and The Reservation is a novel set during I think basically just one shift uh at a restaurant.
SPEAKER_00Um and so and it's I was gonna ask, I I was like the title, I was trying to guess what it was about. And I was like, I hope it's about a dinner reservation.
SPEAKER_01It is. It's about a restaurant. So it's a shift at a restaurant, and there's sort of two things that are happening there that day. One, one of which is that a um like 20 steaks have been stolen from the, you know, from the freezer or whatever. And that is important in general, just financially, but especially important today because John Grisham has a reservation at the restaurant today. So it's like a high stakes day to have had this major thing happen. Um and it's really in a lot of ways like a character piece, um, and just sort of slice of life and tiny little moments and um getting to know this really big cast of characters uh in sort of unusual and specific ways.
SPEAKER_00So I I really That's going to the top of my list because as many people know, I am the hugest fan of Last Night at the Lobster by Stuart O'Nan. And this just sounds like a little homage maybe to that or or in that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it has similarities to that for sure. Um, actually, I would love to ask her like if that's a book she loves too. Um yeah, so I'm I really enjoyed that. And I was a cocktail waitress for quite a few years. Um, and so I have a real soft spot for things that are about that that world. Uh, I wrote a play once that was sort of trying to get at that world. I would love to write something. I would love to use that experience more and try to capture what that was because it is so specific and fraught and um high adrenaline. It's like low stakes, high stakes in this particular way that I think is really interesting. So yeah, I really loved um reading that. And then I'm watching the new season of couples therapy. Do you watch couples therapy at all? No, I can't. It's too too stressful. Yeah, yeah. Cringe. I love it so much. Um, shout out to fellow, you know, YA and children's writer, Lance Rubin, who always lets me know when a new season is out, which is I love. Like, um, because it's huge because for some reason these seasons are like not uh advertised heavily enough, probably to anyone, but to me, a person who loves this show. So what he always texts me when a new season is out, and it's always like makes my makes my day. So I'm not through the season yet, but as usual, I find it just so interesting. And I love Orna as a therapist. I think she's like a genius. I feel like I learned so much from her. It's like I'm going to therapy without actually having to go to therapy, which is just the best combination for me right now. Yeah, and I just feel like they always find really interesting couples with really um unique uh conflict and sort of a wide variety of like conflict that seems solvable and conflict that you're sort of watching. Like, I don't know, guys. I I think it's interesting to think about why a couple does or does not work long term. Like I and to really see it so clearly play out, like, oh, these two um it's you know, it's so much about why I like writing, and I I suspect you too. Like this set of stuff and this set of stuff, and when you put them together, like why can't it how conflict does or does not emerge and the sort of um what's the phrase, like the unmovable object and the whatever force. So and you just see it so clearly in couples therapy that like you may both be lovely people, but you can never get past you will you will never get past this in all your lifetimes. And I find that so I just find it so interesting and like intellectually and emotionally um exciting to watch. Uh so I've been really loving that. And then the last thing is the podcast If Books Could Kill, which I suspect you listen to as well.
SPEAKER_00Um yes, I'm in fact I'm a premium subscriber. Oh, excuse me.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's one of my favorite things, especially when I'm like driving home from work. It's a great podcast. And I I um I like maintenance fees a lot a lot too, but I actually might like if books could kill even more.
SPEAKER_00Um I definitely do.
SPEAKER_01And they did an episode on the body keeps the score, which I before that even popped up in my feed, I had seen maybe on Substack someone sort of concerned about that. Uh, and I was like, oh, interesting. I it seemed like there was gonna be discourse about it. No, I have not deep deep dove into that discourse yet. I don't know if I will. I'm not sure that I I need to do that, but I saw it sort of brought up as like an alarming thing that they were gonna cover this book. Uh, and I thought it was a really interesting conversation about something I'm personally really interested in, which is trauma and like how it plays out in the body. I have had a really positive experience in the past with EMDR. Um, and so I was curious sort of how they would look at that. And it's interesting to hear something dissected that you have. I've I think I've like skim read if the body keeps the score. I don't know that I read it cover to cover. I think I did some skimming of it. But so it's interesting to hear. Usually they're talking about something I'm so obviously like, ugh about, you know? Yeah. Uh, and it was really interesting to hear them talk about something that I am more invested in and more of a believer in. Because I am a pretty big believer in like the physical effect of trauma on the body and on health in general. And there's a I wish they'd gotten a little more. I don't feel like they got a lot into like there is a lot of research that things like heart disease and stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the adverse generative events study is a human.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and they didn't really, at least, you know, unless I totally spaced out, I don't think they really got into that, which I found um interesting because it I walked away feeling like, well, if you kind of say that there's like no adverse effects on the body, because I that's not right. Um, there's like really strong research that there is. But as usual, you know, I think you have to separate sort of the book versus like the bigger conversation, you know, they're talking about the book and pulling that apart versus like the big conversation, which the book has become this stand-in for the big conversation. And that is a little bit of a problem because again, I'm so glad you said, and I'm so glad you knew exactly what I was talking about. That like there is very hard evidence that like your ace score has like a very clear and solid um and cal calculable um effect on your long-term physical health.
SPEAKER_00It was interesting. I I I I actually didn't finish that episode because um in the beginning, or maybe in the first half of it, they were reading aloud some of the trauma narratives from the book. And I just I just turned it off. I I I do love the podcast. And the the it's kind of funny, like when you were mentioning maintenance phase, I kind of stopped listening to maintenance phase because I there was a couple things where sometimes I just felt like, you know, I think you're just wrong about this, and you're being very confident in how wrong you are. And um yeah, I don't know, it just put me off a bit. I do love if books could kill, and it was interesting when I saw this title come up, but I think the point was like you're saying it's one of those books where people recommend it all the time and probably haven't read it. Probably they're like you, skimmed it. Same. I bought it, I was like, oh, this is kind of boring and dense. Kind of skimmed it, and I think it has become a stand-in for the idea of how trauma plays out in the body, where the book itself, like in the intro, Michael Hobbs is talking about. This is one of those books where like your friends recommend it, you hear people talking about it, people hand it to you and say, You should read this. And what you think, like your experience of the ideas in the book is not the same thing as reading the book. And I think that was one of the points of it. But like I said, I I couldn't listen to it because I just sometimes there's just kind of a casual relaying of a trauma narrative that just I didn't just wasn't in the mood for it.
SPEAKER_01Totally. Yeah, I think I think I wish I did not get as much from them that idea that like the book is a stand-in for a real idea. I I just wish that had been made like a a little um hardier in the exploration. It's not like it's not like they're debunking the concept. Right, they're debunking the book. And that's really interesting to me. Like, I do think it's really interesting that we all sort of like the we're like the body keeps the score, and like that's a thing we can say to each other that is that I think like most of us believe to be true and really valid and important.
SPEAKER_00Not only do we believe it, I think we innately, when we hear it, we go, Yeah, yeah, 100%. We know it. Yeah. It's not just we believe it, we experience it constantly. So we don't even have to read the total and go, oh, yes, it does. The body does. Yes.
SPEAKER_01And it is, I am really interested in like, oh, you can take this like true, like capital T, true idea, and then you you you write a book that uses like a lot of sort of flimsy stuff to support it. Um, and that that's interesting. I'm really interested in that dichotomy. Like, this thing is so obviously true. Why does the book have to rely on so much like fluff to get it across? Um, and I just I don't know that they like quite landed the truth of the phrase enough. I think they they landed on like some amount of dubiousness around that phrase still that like didn't align for me. And obviously everything's anecdotal, but you just can't help when something has really been effective for you and there's this like really wry sort of um, you know, cynical, like alleged debunking of it that the EMDR just really bothered me. Like I just felt and they they sort of did line out, line line out that that is evidence-based, but then they sort of delineated like what part of it is actually what works, and it just didn't align with my experience, which doesn't my experience is not scientific, it's just anecdotal, obviously.
SPEAKER_00But well, and I mean all respect to Michael Hobbes, he's also not a neuroscientist. Totally, totally. So, you know, I think I think you can look at books and just go, what what is this book doing that might be manipulating some information? And you can kind of break down why why books shouldn't become stand-in for concepts. But as good as you might be at research, you're still not a primary scientist in that way. So, you know, take it with whatever. I do prefer it when they're doing like Mars versus Venus. Totally.
SPEAKER_01I mean the JD, the JD Vance stuff, they did an incredible job on. I remember sending that to my husband. But anyway, there were things that we were interested in, interesting in the episode too. So it's not like a disrecommendation exactly, but I I did think it was interesting they covered that topic and um yeah.
SPEAKER_00People like us who write about trauma too. There's I think we do have like skin in the game of how we understand the different ways trauma does or doesn't come out in the present day. Because I know I write a lot about aftermaths, and there is like this physical aspect to it and feeling it in the body, feeling like an anxiety trigger in the body, or a panic attack, um, or you know, sleep disruptions, um being prone to to illness, having low immune system strength, all that stuff is part of like what we write about. And it is based in uh truth. Yeah, you know. Yeah. I think we're done.
SPEAKER_01We're gonna c close it out. What are what's um I mean on deck for you in the summer, I know you have this workshop and things are overwhelming right now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's it. I think I covered that in the beginning. What I'm thinking what I'm thinking about in the week ahead. I mean, I'm still gonna I am actually still gonna work on that um one proposal that my agent asked me to kind of move quickly. And um actually looking forward to a little just taking one thing off my plate, like the podcast, for the next like five or six weeks will actually make a big difference. In case people don't know, I edit the podcast.
SPEAKER_01I do not. I do feel that that was that was feelable. I think people know that about me, that I am not editing the podcast on technology.
SPEAKER_00You are in charge of the episode outlines, which is amazing. Um, the editing is a whole different task, and it'll be nice to just like take that off. I mean have to edit this one. But it'll be after that, it'll be nice to like take that off my plate a bit. And um yeah, I'm basically gonna try in the coming weeks to not lose my shit, not take out my stress on the people around me at work or home. Okay, and be very present for the workshop in summer and just make the best decisions I can from day to day. I love that. I'm excited to hear about the workshop. How about you? What's going on for you? Now that you've got your book.
SPEAKER_01I know, now that I'm foot loose and fancy free. How old is your oyster? Uh I'm hoping to meet with my agent next week to to talk some about the adult stuff that I turned in, my next adult idea. And uh my impression from the the email she sent me regarding that was that like, yep, let's do this, but that there's gonna be a lot of like structural thinking to do around it. So I'm excited to I really like this phase where I can change a lot without it feeling um really frustrating and depressing, and it feels exciting and invigorating. Uh, so I'm gonna really appreciate that. And um I'm trying to start thinking about what a next middle grade uh might might look like or or YA.
SPEAKER_00I I've had a YA I was gonna say, do you have YA ideas or is it more like middle grade or adult? Because it it feels like there's a certain feeling I get now where it's like if I have a YA idea, it's like, could this just be adult?
SPEAKER_01I have a YA idea that like I've had some conversations around um with different people. I don't I you know I don't know where that's at right now. And most ideas I have are are middle grade or adult. But I would love to put like I am not done publishing YA. I would love to publish another YA. Maybe the idea that I've had, maybe something else. I particularly love, I would also really like to publish another novel in verse, whether that's YA or middle grade, I don't know. But I I I hope one of my next um children's books is a novel in verse, because I loved doing that. And I did it during 2020, so I would love to write that when we're not in a pandemic. Um, I think that would be especially fun.
SPEAKER_00Um, so if you want to find out more about me and my work, all you can do is go to sarazar.com because I'm done with Instagram. You can subscribe to my newsletter and you can listen to that this podcast, and that's pretty much it. So where can people find out more about you?
SPEAKER_01So corianhaydoo.com, which is, you know, somewhat up to date usually. I am unfortunately still on Instagram, Corian Haydu and Substack as well. And of course, uh, you can order my my books from my website or any of your local indie bookstores. Let's give them some business for the summer.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I guess I would just say have a great summer to listen. Yeah. Since we won't be back till the height of that is over. Um, hope you get to listen to some Stevie Wonder and some other classic soul and read some good books. And maybe be in nature. I love it. That sounds great. Sign me up.
