Blake McIver Ewing: The Little Rascals

In Episode 2, we welcome our first guest and it's someone we go way back with. Blake McIver Ewing, known to most as Waldo from The Little Rascals, sits down with us to talk about a career that started before most kids learn to ride a bike.

Blake's story begins with Star Search, where he talked his way onto the main stage at six years old and won. From there, it was Full House, The Little Rascals, a groundbreaking run in Ragtime, and a path through Hollywood that most people never hear the full version of.

We get into all of it, the audition grind, what it was really like in that final callback room with Spielberg, and how being under contract to Full House almost kept him out of the movie entirely. Blake opens up about the moment he walked away from acting (turning down what turned out to be High School Musical), the years he spent figuring out who he was outside of the industry, and what eventually brought him back to performing, on his own terms.

There are stories about go-go dancing on vocal rest, getting recognized while folding gym towels, and a full-circle reunion with his Ragtime castmate decades later in upstate New York. We talk about rejection, taxes, the Coogan law, what it's like when your on-screen dad becomes a controversial figure, and why theater, especially the immersive kind, might be the future of live performance.

It's funny, it's honest, and it's a conversation that reminds you why this podcast exists: because the real stories behind the kids you grew up watching are way more interesting than anything that made it on screen.

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Transcript

Welcome And A Life-Changing Call

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Little Rascals was tons of auditions. I don't know if y'all went through a gajillion date. And I was technically under contract to Full House for that whole time. So they could have absolutely said no, you can't.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

After being discovered and winning Star Search at just six years old, he became known to many as everyone's favorite spoiled rich kid Waldo in The Little Rascals. He later went on to star in major theater productions, including Ragtime and The Boy from Oz. Please welcome Blake MacGyver Ewing. From our childhood to yours, welcome to the Not So Little Rascals.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

Some of Blake's here right now. Blake, Blake, and Jordan Blake. Yeah. My mom is Susan. Your mom is Susan. Yes. My mom's not. Your mom is not. Your mom is only not. But uh I think we've proven that the Susan Blake momager child actor team is a winning combo.

unknown 0:58

You know.

SPEAKER_03 0:58

I think it is. So, you know, there's that. But um, anyways, hi Blake. Hi. Uh, thanks for coming. Absolutely. It's really nice to have you. Thrilled to be here. Yeah, it's really good to see you. Um 10 years, I think, since we've been together again. Yeah, since that last year. Yeah, the 20 year reunion. Yeah. We like to start this out by asking you about your first call. Like the call that changed your life, essentially. Like, I know you know Little Rascals was an early job for you, but you actually did something pretty significant before that in Star Search. Yes. I'd like to hear about both of those, like those calls and like how that changed your life, essentially.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Absolutely. Yeah, it did, it did start with Star Search. Um, and how that came about was kind of a funny story as well. I started uh kind of bugging my mom to perform, to sing, to dance. I wanted to, I was, we were watching Star Search as a family. You know, it was the thing to watch at that time. And I was desperate to be on it. And my mom was like, You're too young. You had you don't have any experience, you know, you need to. And I think that I think there was a little part of her that was like, if I get him in, if I get him into dance school, because my mom started as a dancer, if I get him into dance school, this might get it out of his system. He might not want to do it. And so sure enough, the opposite, it totally backfired. And hilariously, the one dance teacher here in LA that she knew was one of her former teachers in Houston that had moved out here, Patsy Swayze of that Swayze, literally Patrick's mother.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

So my first dance teacher is Patrick Swayze's mom. One of my heroes. So she gave me my first dance trophy. Like he handed me the first thing. You know, when you do the little like kids' competition. Oh, yeah, I've got a great, great picture of that. Um, so I was too young to be in Patsy's competition group. So she put me in as the entertainment while the judges were tabulating for the various dance competitions. So we were over at the Beverly Garland Hotel right down the street, which I now live a stone's throw from, which is so funny. Yeah. Uh competition team was doing a competition. I sang a little patriotic medley. That was the first time that there was any Yankee Doodle thing happened in my life. Yeah, little George M. Cohen medley. And Tony Charmale, the director of Star Search, was one of the judges at that particular competition. And he approached my parents right after the competition was over and after they like had tabulated, and he was like, I screwed up my scores because I had to redo my scores because I was watching your son, and I want him on our next season of Star Search as a junior as a junior vocalist. And so I went to the next one. When that when that was six, you were six.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

You have one of the few stories where you knew you wanted to be at entertainment or do something versus everyone else kind of put into it.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

That's really cool. And because both of my parents were in show business, they were very hesitant about me getting into it. So I had the opposite, like stage parent, typical stage parent experience. They were very like, Are you sure? There was always like the check-in of like, do you want to stop? Do you want to not go to the audition?

SPEAKER_02 3:44

Yeah, it was so they don't have to feel like it came from them. Did you do it from watching them for years? Was that a lot of it?

SPEAKER_00 3:50

A lot of it, yeah. It was hard to, you know, it in in my world, all of their friends were actors or producers or directors of some sort. You know, I was surrounded by it. So I kind of just thought this is like it was very much the family business. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:04

Yeah. That's so cool. Your dad, I can't remember his name. Uh Bill. Yeah. That's right. And Bill was Bill's an actor and producer, and I think he was a writer too.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

And then he became a studio executive. So while we were doing Rascals and like all during that 90s period, he was working at uh Columbia Pictures. He was their uh senior vice president of production. Yeah, you were built for this. Yeah. It was in your book.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

It was in the book. But it lets it be healthy when your parents understand behind the scenes exactly. You want to be in it so you can do it that way too.

SPEAKER_03 4:31

Yep. So can you tell us a little about the Star Search experience and like what was that like?

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Like, you know, obviously you were so little and it was there was something so special about I had no noise and I had no fear at that age. So I just I was just so excited to be there. I was obsessed

Getting On Star Search At Six

SPEAKER_00 4:50

with the set, I was obsessed with the big turntable, the the runway with the giant neon star in the center. Like I was just a kid in a candy store, really. My first rehearsal, I came to the set, and you know, everything obviously was to track, so they like queue up your track and whatnot. And the kids had performed on this little side stage, not on the main star in center. And I just remember like six years old just asking the director, just like, can I sing? Why can't I sing on the star? I thought I was gonna get to sing on the star like everybody else. That's awesome. We don't have the kids sing on the star. I guess we could try it. Can we? You're like, yeah, why? I was like, can we? And he was like, Yeah, we could well let's camera block it. Let's put and then from then on, all the kids sang on the star.

SPEAKER_02 5:34

That's the best story to have of like why you were it was just meant to be. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

That's awesome. So you're welcome, Brittany Spears. You got to sing on the star because all the people that came after you and you set the precedent.

SPEAKER_03 5:44

So winning Star Search also like it's pretty crazy. Yeah, that was wild. What was like, did did you comprehend what was really I mean, you knew the show. So I did know the show.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

I knew the system. It all happened very fast because they would film those episodes back to back to back. So sometimes we would do two a day. Um, and I had enough wins to qualify me to go to the finals, but I remember we had to be on we had to be in the studio audience for like so X amount of episodes after, um, in case they announced, in case it was like, oh, enough losses, I guess, happened, and then you would be the one going to the finals and they needed the shot of you like waving or whatever. So I actually that's actually how I got to see Britney to perform for the first time because I was in the audience when she when she competed. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 6:28

She's just a little bit older than us, right? Maybe a couple years. Just a couple years. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Yeah. And my friend Marty Thomas beat her. We didn't become friends until much later in life, but that's amazing. Phenomenal. Everything is so connected. Yeah. So it was, it was very, I just remember it being very fast. And then I lost pretty catastrophically on my fifth uh episode, which was sort of devastating because I was kind of like, oh, this is easy. You know, like this is just I just sing and then I win, and then I sing and then I win and I sing and then I win. And we had to have so many songs lined up. You know, there were the arrangements were written and done you know, for weeks leading up to. I think you had to have like nine different arrangements ready to go in case. And so I remember that was devastating. But then it was, I think, a week later that things played out. I qualified for the finals, and then it was just like, okay, then just prepare for the last performance. So you, you know, you didn't really have time to think about it.

SPEAKER_03 7:22

That's such an interesting thing, like prep like that first experience of rejection, you know, and then going on to be a child actor and going on these auditions and callbacks all the time. And you know, like, oh, I didn't get that job. That's another rejection. Sure. Like it's something that we kind of became accustomed to very young, like and got used to it in a way. For good or bad. For good, yeah, for for better or for worse, I'm not sure. But I try to think about and process how that's affected me as an adult. And I'm not really sure yet. But getting used to rejection at such a young age, like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

It's tough. And the the Star Search thing, the only thing that I can really point to directly is I've never wanted to be on another competition television show in any format again. Yeah. Because it's like I started there. Yeah. And I it's I didn't feel like traumatized. I just I had no interest. Well, you also did pretty good, so you were like one for one.

SPEAKER_02 8:13

You're just like, I got it out of the way, now I'm doing something else.

SPEAKER_03 8:17

Um, so Star Search, that's awesome. And then not long after Star Search was little rascals. Yes, Full House actually came first. Oh, no, but I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

The a couple of the writer-producers of Full House saw me do the George M. Cohen medley, the Yankee Doodle, that ended with Yankee Doodle on Star Search. And they that's when they had the idea to write this kind of talent show episode, you know, popping singing a few times, I remember. Yeah. And so my first episode was that Yankee Doodle episode. So they wrote this idea of like, oh, Michelle's gonna try out for this part in the school play, she's not gonna get it. Some little, you know, precocious kid is gonna be the like the star of it, she's gonna be upset, then he's gonna have stage fright. And then so they came up with the whole conceit based on this performance that they had seen. Right. But then I won and they didn't know if I could string three words together. They had just seen me sing on. So I had to go essentially audition for a role that was written about me.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

So I went in.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Yeah, so I went in and literally auditioned for a part that was sort of written for me, but then also definitely reading against other people. Like there was definitely other people auditioning.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

Did you do any training for acting like prior?

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Um, a little bit, you know, my parents helped me out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that I and and I had done like I had I was in a performance troupe. I had done theater before, you know, up before Star Search. So it wasn't like the first time I had ever done sides before, but definitely uh not at that level. And it was again a really fast, it was like, okay, once they figured, okay, he can string some words together, he can read, right on to the next. I think the next day I was at the table read. So talk about yeah. What year was this? This was probably like 93. 93. 93, okay.

SPEAKER_03 9:58

How many seasons did you do at Full House?

SPEAKER_00 10:00

I did three seasons. Okay. So I did the last three. I came in midway through the third to last season. Okay, cool. Yeah. And then stayed on the show until until it went off the air. That's awesome. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:11

God, I love that show. Yeah. So good. A lot of the Child After Crow was on Full House at one point. Yeah. I never made it. I didn't either. Never got that call. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

So Full House, and then I assume Little Rascals. And then Little Rascals. So Little Rascals was tons of auditions. I don't know if y'all went through a gajillion day before we got to that big day. Sure. The big day at Universal. The Spielberg day. But yeah, it was it was audition after audition after audition. And I was technically under contract to Full House for that whole time. So they could have absolutely said no, you can't.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

And they allowed it to happen or they didn't need you at that time.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

I allowed it to happen.

SPEAKER_02 10:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

So they looked at the schedule when I when I once we finally went through all of the, you know, 18,000 auditions and got the final calls. We had to present it to my parents had to present it to the full house team and be like, hey, this this happened. And then they looked at the schedule and it sure enough, it it would have conflicted with two episodes that I was already written into.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

And so they were like, okay, we can work around one, not the other. So we're gonna have to write you out of one of two episodes that you're scheduled for. And they said one of them is a talent show episode where you'll be singing at the Smash Club. And one of them is a go-kart race. I shit you not. Oh my god. And I was like, I was like, hmm. Well, both of these things are happening in this movie that I just got cast in. So I'm like dealer's choice. I was like, I'm gonna forego the go-kart thing. I I mean we're gonna do that on the big screen, and then we'll I'll just I'll just keep coming in and singing for you.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Well, how about a sliding doors though, too? Of like not, you know, producers don't normally make it easier for people that don't need it to happen. They were full.

SPEAKER_03 11:58

They wanted fucking Blake Ewing, baby.

SPEAKER_02 12:00

Be on but they also maybe they wanted the kid to be little rascals to add to their full house, which you know, it was a very known brand that probably factors in.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

Well, and then the big coup was when Mary

Winning, Losing, And Early Rejection

SPEAKER_00 12:10

Kate Nashley's team decided that they were gonna do that cameo in the that we gotta work together on that was that saved it. Yeah, and and they were like, because they were like, this is great, this just looks great for our show. Totally that all these kids are in this movie. This is gonna be, you know, at the time they were hyping it up, it was gonna be a big release, you know.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

Well, probably knew at the time, like how big it was likely gonna be.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

Yeah, I think so. And they were just phenomenal. You know, when I worked with some other other teams on some other episodic work in sitcoms, I realized how lucky we had it at Full House. It was a dream team of people from the top all the way down. Like it was just phenomenal.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

Well, and going back to the audition too, did you only audition for for Waldo? Or did you do other roles too?

SPEAKER_00 12:53

That was it. Okay. Yeah, I didn't read it for it. I didn't read for any of the things.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

We auditioned, like I I did Alfalfa and a couple others first and fell into being froggy. It seemed like a lot of kids auditioned for different, but then when they found someone they liked, they almost tried to make it work. Yeah. You were always the fifth Waldo, obviously. The singing, like there's always so many kids that could audition and and even do that role.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Right. Funny enough, you know, the singing wasn't in the script when we auditioned. That was added in rehearsal. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

That's funny.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

That makes sense. Yeah, it was added as we were, you know, when we would we I don't know if it was I have vague memories of this, but I remember going to Penelope's office on on the lot, and we would just be in like small groups where we would just like work a scene in the office. And that's it was one of those sessions where she was like, I have this idea.

SPEAKER_02 13:40

And as one of those singing like remembered scenes.

SPEAKER_03 13:44

Yeah, I mean it makes sense because you had, I mean, obviously you had a history of that. They knew you were capable of that. So why wouldn't they maximize?

SPEAKER_02 13:50

Well, just your part or the part then that then that that alfalfa did where he's doing the bubbles. Like, was all of it added? Or is one part of it?

SPEAKER_00 13:57

Because the ball the the ballet school sequence was already in the script because that was a nod to one of the old R gang episodes. And then there weren't there was a talent show in the original.

SPEAKER_03 14:08

That's where the barber of Seville thing is.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Yeah. And so I know that I think the alfalfa moment with the soap suds was already in the script. I just it was not, I was not performing. It contrasts. I was still doing the bad thing. Like I was still adding the soap to the thing. Like, I was still.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

But it made it better for you to be villainous and also be talented. Yeah, it makes it better. I could get you and I could outsing you. Yeah, that's way better.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

But yeah, that was added. And and Penelope did not know that I could sing because I I remember in that rehearsal, like she was like, You're not gonna know the song. It's an old I the idea that I have in my head, the old Nat King Cole song. You're not gonna know it. Um, I was like, watch it. I was like, Well, try me. I literally said, Well, try me because that that year was when Natalie Cole released her unforgettable album that was all her dad's song. So like I knew every Nat King Cole song that was on that Natalie Cole record because it is something just meant to be. And so I started singing. I sang it to her. I was saying it to her in the office, and she got on she got on that speakerphone. And I don't know how many times I sang L-O-V-E to like every Universal Studio executive that that afternoon. And because she was like, Oh, well, W, it's it's movies, you don't have to sing. I'm like, I sing, I promise. Wow. I just want a singing competition.

SPEAKER_03 15:17

That's amazing. Yeah. Do you remember the feeling when you actually got called and you booked the little rascals? Yes. Like, how how did that change your life? Like, were you were you like through the moon? Were your parents through the moon?

SPEAKER_00 15:28

That one was wild because it was such a process. Sure. You know, everything else happened fast. That one did not happen fast. You know, you were you guys remember it was it was months and months and months. And then that final day was awful. Like, I don't know if you felt that way, but like that final day I absolutely hated. When we were all in that holding room, and you could just look around the room and you were just like, okay, these three people are up for that role. These three people, it was just and all the stage parents and all the, you know, I I I I don't remember details, but I remember the anxiety feeling, not about the audition, the anxiety about all the like horrific energy in the room. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

You you probably because you worked more than us, like substantially, you probably have a different view of it too.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

For me, like the audition process was the fun. And like it just seemed like like it was almost like like playing. And then you get the call, and I I don't even know what it meant until it even after the shot, like the filming was done, what it really was. Right. I just did one commercial before and like a little beauty pageant.

SPEAKER_03 16:31

So I didn't do any like real big work. Totally. Yeah, it's kind of the same thing for me. Like, I didn't really know, it was like, oh, this is just where I'm supposed to be because my mom took me here. And like there's a bunch of kids and we're gonna like, you know, I I'm not sure what this is. And then finally when it clicked, I was like, oh yeah, I'm a fucking movie star, you know.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

Um yeah, I think I probably was a little more jaded at the ripe age of nine. But I think, yeah, because I do remember, I remember them, I remember them like, you know, pairing up all the different combinations and then sort of like screen testing in that other room. And I just remember being like, I don't know, I how how much more can I do this one scene? Like, I can't bring anything new to this. I've never asked my mom giving you my all like cigarette. And then, but then I do remember that after the lunch break when we came back and they had thinned, they had thinned it down to like, you know, the last the last groupings of people. I do very vividly remember walking in and the the the one time I did it and with Spielberg in the room. Like that I remember because of because of my dad and the business, like I knew I knew I knew who that was. And your parents knew what to expect. And your parents were to expect the guy. Yeah, but they but again, like they didn't tell us. They didn't tell us you couldn't know. Now you're gonna do the same thing you've been doing all day, but you're just gonna do it for Spielberg. Yeah, moment like the biggest producer ever.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

Like, you know, no big deal. It's amazing. I met so many like kids over the years growing up in the valley that always like, whether it's true or not, would say, I was almost this character and almost this and auditioned for this, because you realize everyone who was an actor or not just walked into that room and auditioned at some point. Oh, yeah. It just felt like if you're a kid at that time period, you auditioned for it, you were you were close, and there's all these versions of people that like almost had it and were in that process too.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

Oh yeah. Yeah. Thousands. They yeah, there they they did like a news segment on it during that process of of like oh the nationwide surge for the movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:20

I didn't realize how big it was outside of like my dad was a fan of it growing up, and he didn't care much about the acting or was like really aware of the industry as much, but he really knew that brand. Yeah, and for him that was like a cool big deal because he he liked

Full House To Little Rascals Grind

SPEAKER_02 18:35

the show as a kid.

SPEAKER_03 18:35

Yeah, same with that.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

So that's why I was like, oh, okay, it means something.

SPEAKER_03 18:38

Yeah. So we did Little Rascals. You had a wonderful career. I mean, I remember going and seeing you in All God's Children. Oh yes. I always kind of revered you as like you were like superhuman. Like just why because you because you're very kind of like, but you really did you really did bring like another level to performing. And like it just it it didn't really make sense to me at the time because we were the same age, like the same size. I'm like, he like, how does he do this? Like you were so talented and still are. I don't think. And um, you know, it was so neat to see you. Like I just I vividly remember being a little kid and watching my friend perform on stage going like, wow, like he's so good at this shit. That was really cool. The all the children thing. And I don't ever get to it in the tape, like in the car with the blake's part.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

The stage itself is very different. I never get to talk about it, and it's like it's so it was such a that was such a life-changing thing. And I I I trained a bit, you know, after Star Search of like, okay, well, I just won a singing competition, I probably should take a singing lesson. So I did, I did continue to work at it, but there was nothing like learning from those kids. Yeah. And because we I was the youngest when I got hired into that group at eight, and the eldest was 18. And the talent in the in those 16, I we vacillated the size of the group over the couple of years, but it was about you know 12 to 16. Incredible. I mean, it was a master class in singing, and then we were going to churches all across the country where you would just Can you just describe this group a little bit for people who Yeah, so we were formed, we were formed by Lou Adler. Record producer very, very lovely record producer. You know, yeah. Just you know, I don't I remember walking into Lou's house the first time and seeing like the tap the Carol King tapestry gold record and going, okay. Oh, and that's oh, that's John Lennon's signature on your lampshade. Okay, cool. No big deal. Got it, got it. But we were formed after the LA riots, and it was all um, you know, it was a multi, multi-racial group. Uh, we were doing gospel, hip hop, RB, um, you know, performing in but burned out churches uh in LA, performing, you know, we went to the the Stellar Awards in Chicago, like we were, you know, doing the full. And so it was, it was, it was funny because it was we were contemporary Christian, but like so much more on the non-white gospel side. And so the world in which I got to be a part of and got embraced into, and just the masterclass in singing. Like such a great learning experience for you.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

Like have like like sibling experience.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Yeah, and learning how to riff and learning how to like sing gospel, you know, was so, so you know, it's it's it's skills that I took with me, you know, that I still use today. How long was that experience? We were we were together as a group for a couple of years. We recorded a full album, did a full release tour of that, and then did a Christmas single that following year. I remember all that. Yeah, it was that was really special. Yeah, that was really nice. So thanks for bringing that up.

SPEAKER_03 21:33

That's like, yeah, you know that was like that's like one of one of like a core memory of mine, you know, have having that experience like with a couple of different child actors now. You know, Adam Wiley was one, like what he did Beauty and the Beast.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Yeah, I saw Adam and Beauty and the Beast.

SPEAKER_03 21:46

Yeah, and then I like I I'll I'll bring this up if we hopefully we have Adam on here eventually. But um, we were a guest of his and I got to sit next to Jim Carrey. Oh, how cool! And I was like watching Adam like you know, it was pretty cool. That's awesome. I mean, you Did a lot after that. You did a lot more theater than just that. Yeah. I mean, I feel like you were doing theater not even that long ago.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Yeah, I've I've I've pretty much stayed in that. But right after right after Little Rascals and then, you know, just kind of being in the grind of episodic 90s TV. Minor adjustments. Minor adjustments. Yes. Minor adjustments. And you know, home improvement and nanny and all of that stuff. Like, you know, going through the the ranks of that and then doing like voiceovers and you know animated stuff. I remember a friend of mine that was on Full House, Catherine Zaremba, who was the little redhead girl that I would sing with. Literally, her and her mom took me to an audition for the national tour of the Will Rogers Follies. I didn't even know what the show was. You know, I didn't, I had no connection to like current Broadway at the time. Sure. And I got the last, I went into like the last leg of that national tour. I think I only did like three cities on it because it was like towards the very end, I was a like replacement. But that kind of lit the spark for like, oh, I do like doing, first of all, I do like doing multiple shows a week, which I didn't, you know, coming from film and TV. Yeah. You don't know, you know, that could be a very boring thing for a kid. But I love to enjoy the work. I loved the work and I loved the audience. And so then it was uh about a year after that tour ended, we got wind of this show through some friends that were had just come off of the Miss Saigon tour and were back in LA. And they were, when they when the Saigon tour went through Toronto, they saw a brand new musical that was workshopping there called Ragtime. They said, There is a part in this show that Blake has to play. And sure enough, as fate serendipity would have it, the they were doing the US premiere of Ragtime, not in New York, in LA, here at the Schubert Theater, where we saw Adam do Beauty and the Beast a couple years prior. Yeah, that same theater. That's now the sadly the CAA Megaplex over there in Century Studios. Like breaks my heart. But yeah, so I uh I started my cycle of auditioning for that and for ragtime. And that's what that's what really that changed that. Talk about a life-changing experience. Ragtime wasn't that big of a deal or anything, you know.

SPEAKER_02 24:10

So cool. Was it because the the time involved and like just the work of it? The work of it.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Also, again, you know, being being pretty dumb to the musical theater world, I didn't have any noise. And so when I walked in, I will I will never forget my last audition because it was very intimidating. It was a it was a row of, you know, walking into the Debbie Reynolds dance studio, their biggest room, and a row of about 12 people is the entire creative team in the room. But I didn't know. I didn't know who Lynn Ahrens and Stephen Flaherty were. I didn't have seen once on this island. I I didn't know who Terrence McNally was. Well, and I didn't know you know, I didn't know. I'm 11, about to turn 12. You're still very young. Yeah. Um, I didn't know who Graziella Danielle was. I didn't know these let that I was literally singing and and doing my sides for legends of the thing. It was so much better. Yeah. Like I mean the amount I don't even want to think about trying to count the amount of Tony Awards on just that table. Um and but I think it was just because I didn't have any noise about it. I was just, and I just really wanted it. I just wanted it so bad. I wanted to do it. I loved the I loved the material, I loved the idea. Um, and that just that opened up a whole new world. And working with uh our director, the director of that original production of Ragtime, and then also the original director on Broadway, Frank Galati, who sadly is not with us anymore. But his he what he taught me in three months of rehearsal, I couldn't have learned from getting a master's in directing.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

At what point did you start to kind of uh get out of the industry or make that as a choice?

SPEAKER_00 25:43

I remember I had to make a pretty definitive choice right in my freshman year of college. Um I you're going to real school at this time? I was. Where did you go to college? Yeah, I went to UCLA. Okay. And um I I was really burnt out, sounds so funny to say, but like I was really burnt out at 18. Like I was so exhausted. It's real from working, you know, because I started

Learning To Sing For Real

SPEAKER_00 26:05

basically at five, you know, five, six cusp with Star Search. And I was really exhausted. And I begged my parents, I was like, can I just take a gap year? Very smartly on their part, because they the they probably started. From acting? No, a gap year from school. Oh, okay. I wanted to keep auditioning. I was fine. I was like, I'm I was like, I'm finally 18. I'm like, now I can drive myself to auditions. Like, I how about if I just, you know, take a year and just like I was, I even I was like, I'll take some community college courses to get some credits, but you know, I really just didn't when when it was the the height of the application thing and all of that and the SATs and all of that, it was just I was it was too much. I I couldn't take it. And I begged and begged and begged. And they were like, no, no, no. If you take a gap year, you're not gonna go to school. And they were very smart to to do that. Um, because that's probably what would have happened. But so I thought I was a little jerk that I was, I thought I was gonna, oh, I'll I'll buck the system. I was like, okay, well then if I'm gonna go to if I if I have to go to college, then the only, you know, the at the time the number one theater directing program was at UCLA. Like that was, you know, they had they had beat NYU that year and they had beat Carnegie Mill in that year. So that was like the thing. And I had toured both schools. Um and I was like, nope, I'm only gonna go to New York if I can work. And NYU said you have to sign a contract, you're not gonna audition if you're if you're at CAP21, their musical theater school. Can't I was like, well, I was already doing Broadway workshops for like shows that were in the in the works. And I was like, well, I'm not signing that. So I was like, okay, great. And then I looked, did more research on UCLA. Only there was only 55 spots in each freshman class for that musical theater program. And I was like, great, I'll never get in. It's like I'll never get in. I'll tell my parents, great, this is the only place I want to go. Uh, they thought I was applying to a bunch of schools. I'll show them. Yeah. I did the UC application. I only checked UCL. I didn't even check backups, like no, no UCSD, no UC Irvine. Um, and I was like, and then I went to the audition. It was a nightmare. I mean, the audition was the biggest shit show on the planet. They did not know what they were doing. They weren't, it was a mess. I was there for like seven hours that day to just literally do one monologue, sing 16 bars, and a dance call. That was it.

SPEAKER_03 28:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

It was a nightmare. I literally left before the dance call was over because I was so mad. I was like, my time is being wasted. You know, I'm such a jerk. I'm like 18 and I'm like 18. I'm like, I'm not getting paid. This is this is not right. This is we're over time now, you know. And I left and I was like, okay, well, that's it. That's it. I don't, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm scot-free. And then like four weeks later, the packet comes in the mail of like, welcome to UCLA. My dad was like, thrilled. And it was like, oh my God, you're a brew. Your plan was foiled. Yeah, my plan was my plan was fully foiled. But so I tried, I they had a version of the like you, you know, don't work professionally contract that they wanted us to sign, but it wasn't nearly as ironclad as the NYU one. So I just kind of I was able to avoid signing it my whole freshman year, and I was still kind of playing the back and forth, doing, you know, had the agent, had the manager, was still going to auditions, and I will never forget the I because I remember which lecture hall I was sitting in at in the theater school at UCLA, and I got the call. It was call, not not even an email, it was the got the call, checked the voicemail from the agent. Disney Channel original movie, you've been in for the last three. It's finally your time. This one's, you know, they've said it because I had been so close to like three back to back, and I was like, hey, I had almost gotten to the point of like not going to auditions at the Disney Channel building anymore. Cause I was like, you're not gonna hire me. Yeah, they never hired me. You're not gonna hire me. Like it just got so and the casting directors, they all love me. They all knew me. I knew them all by name. Like it was ridiculous. I was like, this is not happening. They were like, this one, they've the casting office already called, this one's yours. You just have to go in for the formality. It's a singing thing. Just go in, sing for them. There's no, there's no accompanist, they don't know what they're doing. It's a musical, but they don't know that they don't know what how to do a musical. So just go in, sing, this one's yours. And I was like, you know what? I finally have to draw the line in the sand. If I'm gonna do this, I'm not gonna be able to finish school. I'm not gonna be able to get this degree. Like, this is too much. I was like, towards the end of my freshman year, I was like, I I've gotta make a decision. And so I was like, I called back and I was like, you know what? No, it's I've gotten so close so many times, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna chance it with this. And that audition was high school musical.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

Another, another closing door. Wow. And and you know, once that happens, you get on a list like we're never gonna talk to them again because Disney doesn't take that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

And what's hilarious is the last one that I was up for and got to the last two and didn't get was Lucas Greybill, got it was the whatever that Halloween Town sequel was. It was between me and him, and he got it. And so this was literally casting being like, okay, this time we're gonna give it to Blake. And so sure enough, Lucas did it.

SPEAKER_02 30:57

So it would have been the role that kept you in acting.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

It would have. And uh, you know, like hindsight's 2020, but like, and I don't have any regrets over the decision, but it was just hilarious because I'm like, you know, you know, and all the things. It's the funniest thing of like, oh, that was the audition I didn't go to was high school musical.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

But it's nice to hear like you had really, you know, smart and supportive parents of like knowing also it's like they wanted you to have that experience at that age. Yes. I I went to college at the age of college, and it was one of my favorite decisions I've done. Because like you could always take a break, try acting or theory or more, but it's different if you go as like 25 and you're surrounded by 21-year-olds, it's back to going to school with no one understands you at at the time we were doing college. Yep. And that would have been a very different college experience than that.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

It would have. You can't go back. No, you can't. And I would have, I I already felt older than I was just because of all the working, which I'm sure you guys can relate to. So I can't even imagine another year. And then dealing with kids that were fresh out of high school, I would have been a nightmare. Yeah, no, it was it was definitely for the best. It was definitely the right decision. But have you ever had a uh have you ever had a normal job? Yes, I've had many, many normal jobs. I've worked, I've worked lots of different, you know, gig gig economy, yeah, economy life in my current sort of like what I call my day job, because I still kind of dabble in hobby in all corners of entertainment. But I work for a fitness company and while I was studying to take my national certification for uh sports medicine, I just worked a regular front desk at a gym, folding towels, checking people in, doing that, and then did that for like over a year while I was getting all my credentials.

SPEAKER_03 32:32

Um experience of anyone going uh like just recognizing you from the little rascals while while checking into the gym? All the time. Yeah. Yeah, all the time.

SPEAKER_02 32:40

How's that experience?

SPEAKER_03 32:40

I'm just curious. It's a little weird. Yeah, that was a little weird. Yeah, yeah. It's totally weird because I got a sandy idea. I worked at McDonald's in a Walmart. So double whammy. Like taking someone's order and them going, can I remember one? Wait. Were you the king of Little Rascals? Yes. Uh-huh. And now you work at McDonald's? Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 33:01

That tracks. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 33:02

Like, you know, I think I, you know, I I think the stars that we didn't have cell phones back then because that would have been brutal for me.

SPEAKER_02 33:09

But I did a normal job for six months. Yeah. Yeah. Like six months. I worked at a Hollister. Okay. And a mall. Then I I literally just remember Were you the model outside? No, I actually I was I was in the back and I I felt a certain way about that. It kind of made me self-reflection. I'm like, wait, they put people in the front that looked good. I'm like, oh Abercrombie.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

And Hollister did such a number on us.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

They did sued a number of times. I didn't realize.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

Like I my body dysmorphia comes from those two companies. I think they're owned by the same company. Oh, they are and they know what they're doing. All owned by the gap. Yeah. All owned by

Ragtime And The Theater Spark

SPEAKER_00 33:40

the gap. Yeah, but the yeah, that really I think that screwed up the millennial male. We could probably do a whole podcast on just that. I think there's been big losses. Yeah, their husband.

SPEAKER_02 33:48

But I just stopped showing up. I remember. I remember when I I one time I went for like a dinner break at the CPK in the mall. Yeah. I looked at the price and looked at what I got paid that week, and I'm like, I'm out. It's doesn't make sense. I can't afford to eat at CPK. But I can I can live off, I can live off the four-side residual is better than this. Right. And I feel bad, it's terrible, but you know, it was good to have that experience. My siblings who are older than me grew up doing normal jobs always in high school, and it was smarter. I should have done a regular job just to have that experience. And I was very spoiled and fought it. And my kid will definitely have regular jobs. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

For sure.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

For that reason alone.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Yeah, it's I think I do think it's important. A few years out of college, I worked in uh kind of like right as I was coming out of the closet. I worked in nightlife in West Hollywood and I was a go-go dancer for like over a year. Oh fuck yeah. That was great. That's a different experience. That's so I don't really call that a normal job, but the hours too. The hours. But I was working, I was working a lot on my music at the time, and I was doing a lot of songwriting and doing a lot of recording. And it was the greatest because I yes, I the hours were crazy, and I was, you know, getting home at 2, 2.30 in the morning. But because you're up, you know, on a box, like elevated, and you can't really talk to people, it was like I was on vocal rest for the full five-hour shift or whatever. So I was like, I would wake up the next morning and be like, oh my God, my chords are so nice and relaxed and loose. And I'm like, I haven't been talking. It's like so recording during that was great because I was just like doing doing silent cardio for hours on end. Did people ever recognize you while you were go-go dancing? No. I always like that.

SPEAKER_02 35:29

I always had like a I always had like a bandana on or like a well, people recognized in general on the street, like just for how you look now as an older person from that movie. Sometimes it depends. It seems even though you look closer than maybe me, because like the character was different, it seems so hard for someone to like, why would they be thinking of that?

SPEAKER_00 35:48

Right. It depends on where I am. Like I'll get recognized. If if I'm at like uh, you know, I find I find that I get most recognized. I love to go to theme parks, and I will find that I'll get recognized, like I'll get recognized at Universal or at Disneyland. Like I it's funny. And even when I'm sort of incognito, like people will be like, how do you like that? How do you like it? Is it nice? It is nice, it it is nice. Yeah, I've come I've come around to it. Yeah, like I remember times, you know, right when we were in the throes of it as kids, there were a couple, I had a couple of like scary run-ins. Like I had a couple of mob experiences. Um both both happened in New York, of all randomness. Yeah, and so I would get a little uneasy if I was like approached in a mall or like you're young too.

SPEAKER_02 36:31

Yeah. So we're an experience to get used to. My brother would like walk 12 feet ahead when we would go out to the mall and stuff. Totally. Because at that time period, it everyone knew it. Like we we had these, like a group of girls that walked us around at like a knottsbury farm when we were like nine or eight or something. But like everywhere, you know, it was a big movie. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:52

I can't imagine like what like that feeling of a little kid getting mobbed like that. Like I I don't remember having any experiences specifically like that, but that kind of like it breaks my heart just thinking about that. But um, like it kind of breaks my heart just thinking about that. Like the the like the amount of pressure and like what like how do you even handle that? Like you don't have the tools to handle that kind of situation.

SPEAKER_00 37:17

And you just you just deal with it and tell people, oh thanks, I'm I'll sign this. Yeah, you don't, you just yeah, and and wanting to just be whatever the person wanted from that interaction. Yeah. And how how hilariously how it manifested itself in my adult life is that I it takes an act of God for me to like go up to someone and and introduce myself, like someone who I respect, their their work or their art or their like I would rather die than than stand at a stage door.

SPEAKER_02 37:48

I'd rather just say, like, I appreciate what you do, have a good day. Just kind of like I want to know I like I like what you do as a person.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

I love to have like a quick interaction, something, something real, something, but like I would rather die than ask for a picture. Yeah. Even if it's someone I worship, like I I would rather die.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

Well, I still get I literally still get people the other day, and someone used the wrong name, so I knew they were asking some other child actor first. I was like, okay, I'm like, you know, my name's not like like Jamal or like whatever the name was. And they're like, can you just send an autograph, please? I'm like, honestly, I don't do that. And I get that a lot. I'm like, I feel bad, but then I'm like, that's why people go to comic-cons and do those things. And I don't want to start sending it, but people, I'm like, I'm I'm responding, I'm messaging, like, we're connected online. That should I I feel weird how to say it because it's a weird thing, but like I want to say this interaction, if you're a fan or or anything, sure should should be more meaningful than a random picture autograph, which someone can make up. Yeah. And like that, that to me, that's why there was a period where I wouldn't respond to anyone online when I was in my 20s, and like it was just weird. And then I'm like, if they take the time to remember something from their childhood and it's like a memory, as long as they don't ask me 47 questions after, sure, I will say, Thank you for being a fan or thank you for loving that movie. I'll answer a question, and then after seven more, you're like, Hey, I gotta get I gotta tap out.

SPEAKER_03 39:06

Yeah, avoided it at all costs. Yeah, did you ask me? And I was like, No. Yeah, you lied about it. You look, I'm like, wasn't me. Blazing me.

SPEAKER_02 39:13

You look really similar. Are you sure?

SPEAKER_00 39:16

Like, not me, dog. Yeah, but um, you know, I got I got to avoid some situations by just being like, I'm not Macaulay Colkin. Yeah, oh my god, you probably did get that. That's funny. Like, are you no, so yeah, I'm not. Didn't have to lie. Oh my god, the amount of times I was asked to do that, too. Did you all ever get a get assaulted by the auto the weird autograph collectors where they just like have the pages and pages?

SPEAKER_02 39:40

That's what I I remember that those books. Because I remember like I had that book myself on the set, I think my mom even gave me for all the different cameos. And even when I would go to other places, like I would have one for fun, so I know people would have that. Sure. And even now I don't I didn't realize for the last like 20 years, people would get autographs, they wait at the airports and they're just selling them. And I heard people talk about it as why like they're not an asshole not signing things, it's because they would see their stuff being put out. And that's why people are like, Oh, don't put a name. So, like that's why people, if they say write to my sister, yep, if you actually write to a name, you feel better versus like just your name. Yeah, yeah. And if somebody like it's more traumatic to see your autograph on like eBay going for like 40 cents than anything, I'd rather just avoid that altogether. That's worse.

SPEAKER_01 40:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:31

So so now, like us doing this is kind of our way to get back into some kind of creative self-therapy, fun. Is there anything like that you do doing theater or doing something in front of the camera, anything else because you enjoy it for yourself?

SPEAKER_00 40:47

Yeah, absolutely. Um, I I'm still I I still very much am passionate about uh theater, about specifically about directing. And I have like three projects that I'm working on uh currently right now that I'm like in pre-production for in various stages, some of them farther along than others. But that's really that's that's my heart, that's my soul. It always has been. Um it's funny how you kind of like we we do when you work as a kid and you can your career goes in a kind of path that you're not really in control of. Sure. And even though we had it great comparatively to some of the horror stories, there's still a non-control you know aspect of it. And I think back to like, you know, even before Star Search, I think back to like going to see shows, coming home, cutting out this, like a version of the set out of like cardboard

Choosing College Over High School Musical

SPEAKER_00 41:30

and construction paper, and like moving action figures around. And I was like, I was directing theater from the time I was three. Like you wanted to do that. That's what I wanted to like. That's in age.

SPEAKER_02 41:39

The control part is really real. Yeah, I think that's the difference of when people ask, like, did you choose to be in it? Like, you're the only story I've heard of like going to the parents, I want to do this versus like, I want to be a YouTuber now. Yeah. And that's that's nice and unique. We were all put into it, so I feel like at some point you're like, I'm choosing to get out and you feel good about it. This, or like I'm trying to do open mics for fun. It's like it's nice to choose to do it with no expectations of like I I want to audition to get a role to be an actor versus just I want to I want to be creative and do something.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

That's the thing. And it and also like ha being a cog in someone else's machine for so many years really made me go, okay, if I'm gonna do this, I want to build the machine. Yeah, you know, and not in a not in an egotistical way, not in a controlling way, just in a like, I if I'm gonna put art out into the world, I want to know that this is what I want to say with it, this is the story I want to tell, this is the version of the story I want to tell. Just having that in inherent and not just being like, I just don't have the grind in me. And I have uh massive amounts of respect for the people that do, you know, and the the the working performers out there in all facets of our industry that are doing it and God love them doing those self-tapes 18,000 times a week.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

I I feel like that takes away the fun though. I've I I've heard it's all self-tape. It's all self-taped now. I I genuinely enjoyed, and like you said too, you get to see kids. Yeah, the audition process was at some age it became it was fun. When you get a little older, it became you've started to feel the grind. Yeah. But I enjoyed the actual, like when I started to like learn acting after being like a teenager. Yes. You enjoy the work you put into writing versus like I'm gonna be a weird kid and change their lines, and it's okay to be stupid and crazy. And you get older, you're like, Oh, I don't change the lines. I actually find a motive and intention. And that process became fun until it wasn't. But self-tape just feels a little like removing the soul a little bit. Yeah. I've heard it's it's not it's easier, but I think if you had the years that we did, it it seems a little like that that removes a lot of what was what made acting.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

Yeah, see, and I'm such a perfectionist when I have the final say that I like the idea of doing the prep work, walking into the room, and leaving it in the room. Yeah, sure. And let the cards fall where they will. Yeah. Because so much of our rejection was not personal. It was The right fit, the right timing, the right this, the politics, the whatever. You know, it had nothing really to do with like, oh, you did bad in the room. So just like prepare, do the work. It's either yours or it's not. You know, and there's something kind of freeing about that. If suddenly I can watch every take back and go, oh, which one do I want to send? And oh, and then you'll when do you like this a little more in this one?

SPEAKER_02 44:19

But I like to Well, I'll I would do a thousand takes because I'll never be I'll never be good enough for myself.

SPEAKER_03 44:24

I just wanted to get the hell out of there. Yeah. I hated it. Wanted it to be done. I mean, because it like for me, it was like, you know, you get picked up from school early and then you just Hollywood Santa Monica. You get home at nine o'clock, like, you know, didn't really have a personal life.

SPEAKER_00 44:38

And you were in the you were uh up in the high ends of the commercial. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 44:42

Yeah, the commercial is a grind.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

Olympic and Bundy is probably PTSD of a interesting.

SPEAKER_02 44:48

But you would have three or four a day because there's so many commercial shooting every single day.

SPEAKER_03 44:52

And so I I despised the audition process. And that was like one of the things that kind of made me very um that that made me want to step away. Sure. Because, you know, I did want to have a normal life at school. I wanted to hang out with my friends, you know. I wanted to play sports. I didn't want to sit in the back of the car, my mom, you know, questioning, like, I I want to know everything you said. Did you do the eyebrows? Did you do this? Did you do that? Oh, yeah. The recap. Commercial auditioning is different than like than TV work too and then a different kind of grueling. Totally. It's a different type of preparation. Like you you didn't have, you know, it was it was very much like, oh, like I fucked that one up, they're not gonna call me back. Right. And you were very aware of that. One of the main reasons I stopped, because I just didn't want I didn't want to go through the auditioning process anymore. I hated it.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

The lesson I tried to take from that, because I felt very similar a lot of times with that, like the grind of the audition process, is like now on the on when I'm when I get to be on the other side of the table, I try and make it so collaborative that no matter what, it's more important to me that they have a great experience, that the that the the artist coming in has a great experience. Because like they're it they're doing the work, you know, that I am receiving. And it's it's not it's not so much about like oh what where the card's gonna fall. It's more about like I'd rather someone say, Oh, I had a great audition experience. I had a good day because of that. Like I got to do what I do in a in a warm room, whether they're gonna get it or not, it doesn't, you know, because like we all know there's so many variables.

SPEAKER_02 46:22

Well you're I learned I trained at uh at a place called Leslie Khan. Oh yeah. That was really good for for comedy and for TV. And I did that at 18 and I finally learned your role is to make a fan in the room. Your role is not to get the drain. Because you're probably not, but like you said. So if you go in and you do a good audition and you come out going, you know what? I had three auditions this week, I felt good about them. If you if that becomes a good week for that reason, you can enjoy being an actor whether you become famous or not. Because most people aren't, right? So at least you can have five years of that, you know, take it or leave it, and you had a good experience. Most people are not gonna like work a ton out of it. So, what's your goals for for work for creative? Like, is there anything that you want to do that you haven't?

SPEAKER_00 47:06

Yeah, I the these projects that I'm kind of working on right now. I'm working on a um uh I I can talk like sort of vaguely about it. I'm working on a piece in the immersive theatrical space that's like an environmental production where the audience kind of moves through the story with the actors, which has been done a lot in the horror genre. Just did one this past Halloween, it was awesome. Did you really? Yeah, it was so cool. Yeah. Is it is it a show? Amazing. This yeah, and it's it's just starting to kind of cross into the musical theater space. Yeah. Um, there's a phenomenal production in New York right now of the Phantom of the Opera. Uh that they're it's a basically a revival of Phantom, but it's called Masquerade, and it is a fully immersive environmental walkthrough of the story.

SPEAKER_02 47:52

How much space do you cover in these kind of shows?

SPEAKER_00 47:54

Um well, with that one, it's like six floors of you know, they took over a building and a and a rooftop, and you're going up and down and you know, following the actors.

SPEAKER_03 48:02

It's like the scary mazes, but as a as a musical theater production. And and like you, and you you you participate with the actors and they give you instructions, and it's it's really a great time. Yeah. Like what a neat, like you know, it's a really takes off.

SPEAKER_00 48:14

It's a really cool thing. It it what I love about directing in that space is that it you it pulls on not just my theater experience, but it really pulls on your film and TV experience. And a lot of musical theater actors, you know, that have just worked in in theater don't have that experience. So you're directing a show like a musical and like a film and like a TV show all at the same time. So you're directing.

SPEAKER_02 48:37

Yeah. Are you gonna be in it? Yeah, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 48:39

Okay, no, no, no. So you prefer to be behind the CL? Yeah. Yeah, it's funny. I I look at my performing now as a hobby. Yeah. Um, because I really love it when I get to do it and it's just fun. Like a year and a half ago, production company or uh theater company up up in Rochester, New York called me out of the clear blue sky, like literally DM'd me on Instagram and said, Hey, we got we just got the rights to this show. Um, we think you'd be great for it to star in it for to open our season this year. And I was like, Who are these? Like, who are these people? How did they find me? Like, what is it? So I email the guy back and I'm like, and in my head, I'm thinking, there's only a couple of roles that I would be like, sure, I'm gonna like get off of work and like get coverage for three months to go up to the upstate New York, but that I've never even a town I've never even been to to like do the show. I'm like, this it's it's this has gotta be great. And sure enough, it was like it was so amazing. It was one of the one of the like bucket list roles. It was Peter Allen and The Boy from Oz. How long was it? A show that I never thought I'd get to do. Um, and it was like I

Recognition, Autographs, And Boundaries

SPEAKER_00 49:40

spent uh two months up there.

SPEAKER_02 49:42

When you don't say something, sometimes it comes to you.

SPEAKER_00 49:44

And it was so magical. And when the director emailed me back after we, you know, kind of went back and forth a couple of times, he was like, and I think he was kind of like trying to like add enticement to the and I he didn't know that I was already like fully sold. I was like, yeah, I want to do this. But I think he was trying to like, you know, get me a little more excited about doing doing it. He's like, We've we've already secured um the actress that's playing Judy Garland in it. Um she's a Tony Award nominee, she's a phenomenal original cast of The Who's Tommy, original cast of chess on Broadway, Marcia Mitzmann Gavin. And I was like, I just burst into laughter and he was like, Oh no, is that okay? And I was like, Marsha played my mom in ragtime. Like she was mother for the whole and they didn't know that? They didn't know. That's amazing. So I call Marsha and I'm like, are you going to Rochester? She was like, Well, I have a letter of intent sign. I was like, You're going to Rochester because I'm saying yes, and we're doing this together. And sure enough, we got to do it together. So went from mother and son to mother-in-law and son-in-law. That's such a cool, like, full circle moment.

SPEAKER_03 50:41

It was incredible. Yeah. I mean, you've been performing your entire life. Yeah. Do you ever feel pressure to like, do you do you feel pressure to always be to always perform? Or like have you kind of found a balance in your life where you're able to turn that off and know when to turn it on? Because like we grow up, like we're always trying to perform. Like I felt like that's that's kind of what I was programmed to do, you know? And now, like, you know, I try to just not give a fuck as much. But um, I get that. I was curious, like, you know, because you spent so much time performing for so many people.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

Yeah. After a lot of therapy and a lot of, you know, mental health work, very, very intentional mental health work, I don't have that impulse anymore. And I I can turn it all the way off. And it's so helpful for me. It drives my mother crazy because she's like, How can you not be singing? How can you not be like, don't you want to? And I'm like, sometimes I do. Yeah. And then when I do, I'll find an outlet for it. And then sometimes I can just go for a few weeks. Like, I don't need to warm up today. There's no reason.

SPEAKER_03 51:47

You know? That's good. You've done the work to kind of balance it out and figure it out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:51

And it's like, I like to keep my, you know, I like to keep my chops sharp in the long run, but you know, so that if something did happen, it's not like a Herculean task to get back into fighting shape. Yeah. Um, so I do. I I I I'm in maintenance mode always, but never feeling like, oh gosh, I have to be on stage. I have to sing, I have to perform, I have to act. I have to.

SPEAKER_02 52:11

If you ha want to be in this role, if you want to do this project.

SPEAKER_00 52:15

Yeah. And I have, you know, I have little outlets throughout the year that I that pop up, little gigs that will pop up, and and it's great. And then it's just fun. It's just enjoyable. Yeah. Because there's not pressure and it's not kind of like what you were saying. It's not le it's it doesn't, I don't need it to lead to the next step. Right? So I can enjoy just that for what it is.

SPEAKER_02 52:36

It takes a long time to get there, I think, when you've done this for so long.

SPEAKER_00 52:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:39

Like even like this itself is kind of that. We're like, we don't need to do it, but it's it's really fun. Yeah. Yeah. And it lets us talk about something that I think we had a conversation a couple years ago just about the life, and we're like, we've never really sat and talked about it together.

SPEAKER_03 52:55

Yeah. It's super unique, and like it, it it just not many people who could actually relate to it, like, unless you sit down with other fellow generators.

SPEAKER_02 53:02

And film it so others can listen to it.

SPEAKER_00 53:03

Yeah, so that others can listen. No, but it's great. And I think it, you know, we we were talking about this a little bit off camera about how, you know, this moment in in entertainment when when we were child actors was such a specific moment in time. And it was such a, you know, we're we're our fellow millennials are the most nostalgic, you know, because of everything we've we've been through as a generation. You know, that that sort of the beatdown trauma of just that. I think there's a reason why we're all, you know, buying toys and watching old movies that we grew up with and you know, listening to the same music that we listened to in the early 2000s. Um, and there's a reason for that. And it's not a bad thing, it's just it's a it's a unique to our experience. And I think so many people will will love hearing what they didn't know. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 53:52

I think it's kind of a lost art. Like, I think the 90s child actors that we were, that phrase is kind of gone. There's no 2000s child actors in the same way. And people started to grow up. You hear, I want to be a YouTuber, I want to be an influencer. Like, you don't hear like an actor as much versus a version of celebrity that's very much transformed.

SPEAKER_00 54:10

That's true.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

Whether it's good or bad is is is opinion.

SPEAKER_00 54:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:13

But like the child actor life, I think, as we know it, is not gonna really be around because auditioning is different, right? Lifestyle is different, and the industry is is changing really quickly constantly.

SPEAKER_00 54:27

And yeah, and because there's so many, you know, streamers, there's so much, there's so much work in other places, not centralized here in LA anymore. You know, there's we you know, we had like kind of a c it was kind of a class. It was kind of like it was a class of us, like uh, we all knew each other, sort of, you know, or we knew of each other and we'd run into each other in auditions and like see each other at the functions and like you know, those those great little awards, like the young young artists' awards and all of that like stuff, you know, we'd all see each other. Yeah, and yeah, there's no like centralized hub for that anymore, it doesn't seem like for kid actors.

SPEAKER_02 55:00

I appreciate not growing up with the instant feedback social media because I feel like that's even being as an adult, I find myself checking things after a post. I'm like, why? And if you grew up with it though, oh my gosh, the instant feedback is not natural for you to have.

SPEAKER_03 55:15

I wouldn't have been able to handle it. It's just people have too much access to you, and like too much access and like effects on your like it affects your feelings. And you give the access, you know, and yeah, but it's just it's it's changed a lot. Like, I don't know, I don't know how I would handle it.

SPEAKER_02 55:28

Like Yeah, it's it's it's definitely different. I think we I think you know we had a really nice shared experience.

SPEAKER_03 55:34

Yeah, we did.

SPEAKER_02 55:34

And it was wholesome. It was. And we come back around to we're also the generation that we'll talk about in therapy and deal with it in a better way. Versus, like I said, if your mom's asking you, why won't you still do it? My mom would ask me the same thing. If I had more talent and singing and dancing, she'd be like, you need to do this. Yeah, because she still comments in every Instagram video. I'm so proud of you, I love this. Like I appreciate it, but it's just funny.

SPEAKER_03 55:56

Nobody wants to hear you say that. No, no one Blake, something I something I like to get into, you know, and feel free to, you know, if you're uncomfortable talking about it, but like

Coogan Protection And The Tax Nightmare

SPEAKER_03 56:05

the like the money aspect of things, because that's that's kind of something that goes along with you know the stigma of child actors. Like, you know, we've all heard all the horror stories and stuff. Like Jordan and I have our individual stories. Like Jordan didn't his parents didn't lose his money, he got to fuck out. All about himself.

SPEAKER_01 56:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:21

Yay! Unfortunately. My case, mine was all just very poorly invested. Sure. Um, you know, when they shouldn't have had access to it, but you know, through loopholes and, you know, this title, like manager titles here, manager titles there, you know, ended up with nothing. But well, what was your case? Like, how was how was your money handled?

SPEAKER_00 56:38

I got really lucky because of my my because my dad was a notable, fierce negotiator in the studio system world that was pretty ironclad in like the trusts and things that they did, and they really they were, you know, they they love to throw that blue book at everyone, that Coogan law, you know, thing. So yeah, uh it was very thankfully it was very well protected, um, which was great, um, because that became very necessary in my 20s um when I couldn't work for a for periods of time. But yeah, it the the thing that I always say to people is that like you think that the trauma of being a child actor is the is the all the things you've heard about. The thing, the biggest trauma of being a child actor that you haven't heard about, the taxes. From the first time I had to do my taxes by myself, I had 32 W-2s the first time I did it individually.

SPEAKER_02 57:32

And you're like, I have to save these? Yes, all mailed.

SPEAKER_00 57:35

It's a nightmare. Nothing was digital. I feel like I had to become a tax, like like superstar. Like I had to become an expert in taxes at like 200.

SPEAKER_03 57:47

$230 from Sony. I actually just got a residual. It wasn't Jordan's. Send me a picture. It was my first one getting a residual check for one cent. One cent.

SPEAKER_00 57:57

And I was like, I couldn't believe it.

SPEAKER_02 57:58

Welcome to the first time now? I know now? Now blown away. I've had multiple, and I would and like it made me the the paper, the envelope, the people doing it. Oh, yeah. How much money is SAG burning over these years of like?

SPEAKER_03 58:11

Someone got sued along the lines, and now every single one cent paycheck will be sent to you.

SPEAKER_02 58:15

Oh, it's been without everything's digital for a few years, but it took a long time. Oh, yeah. A lot of money wasted.

SPEAKER_00 58:20

No, and I mean, I I still get there's still plenty of paper checks that come through for those like you know, let's go.

SPEAKER_02 58:26

Funny, first of all, thing to complain about. But when you get 47 checks from a voiceover, yeah, you have to sign them all. It is a lot.

SPEAKER_00 58:31

It is. It is. That's the thing they don't that's the thing they don't prepare you for.

SPEAKER_02 58:38

Not big checks.

SPEAKER_00 58:39

Every year around tax season, I do like take a picture of just like this is you wanna you want to know what child actor trauma really looks like? It looks like this, and it's just like a table filled with the show the sum total.

SPEAKER_02 58:49

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:51

And then it's like added all of this paperwork up and it's like $300.

SPEAKER_02 58:55

People thought like people have wild views of oh, you must have got paid like a million dollars. I'm like, yeah, I was like six and it's my first job ever. Like, why would they why would they pay anyone that much?

SPEAKER_00 59:05

Right, the misconception. Yeah, the misconception. And also it's like and proximity conception misconception, because it's like for me with like the full house years, you know, yes, I was standing next to Mary Kate and Ashley the entire time, but I was not being baked with you're not getting Mary Kate and Ashley money. And also their money came mostly from the endorsements, not from the TV show. So they were smart about merchandising and straight to video. Like, but but there is that our peers were also kids at the time, so they didn't understand what they were just like, oh, you're you're on TV, you're famous, you must be rich.

SPEAKER_02 59:38

But then they grow up and still have the same questions.

SPEAKER_00 59:41

Still have the same questions, yeah. And then it also didn't help that I like mostly played a rich jerk in a lot of these things. So people would just assume you're a jerk. Yeah, or or rich. Yeah, yeah. Like, oh no, no, no, no, no. Not not so.

SPEAKER_03 59:55

You speaking of rich jerks. Um I'm curious if this has come up at all lately about your um your fictional father from the little movie we did in

The On-Screen Dad Cameo Problem

SPEAKER_03 1:00:05

1994. Yes. Um we talked about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:07

Yeah, I mean, that's been that's been wild. Yeah, you know. Uh nonchalant cameo turned into a lot more. Yeah, turned into like just a a a dark mark on uh, you know, an otherwise lovely film. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:22

I tell everybody he gave us 20 bucks. I don't know if that's true or not, but you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:26

I you know, this the story that I tell that it not not like us not a fake story that actually happened was the day he came to set, um he did it was him and Marla and Tiffany, it was Tiffany as a baby that was they all the three of them came, and he demanded to have his like on set craft service lunch with me. And so because he was like, I want to meet the kid that I'm playing the dad. I guess I'm like, and he was really nervous and really agitated. Because you know, this was like only the second time ever in front of a camera, you know, in front of a film camera, because this was right after Home Alone 2. It was just I like I have hardly any recollection of it. Yeah, um, my parents have more of a specific uh re recollection of because my dad happened to be on set that day randomly, which was not very common, right? Um, because he was always at the studio.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:16

And so, but they were there, and so we had this like weird like lunch, and then it didn't matter because it was just over the cell phone, you know, it was in the go-kart over the cell phone. We were never on screen at the same time. Sure. Like we taught we had dialogue, but we weren't standing anywhere near each other. So it was just so weird. Yeah. So weird. Yeah, it's very, it's very odd. It's you know, people uh ever since this election cycle of 2016, people tried to like, you know, mine something out of it. And it's just you know, I'm I'm more devastated with just like where we've come as a culture that that this person, this this specter is, you know, the byproduct of. You know, that I think it's more that's more upsetting. I think the problems are so much bigger than just this one man and what he's done, which is enough of a problem. But you know, it it's very hard. It's very hard to be it's very very hard to be a a deeply blue Democrat uh queer man in entertainment and like have this connection to the sitting president that I don't want.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:22

It's a deep connection. He played your father.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:24

Yeah, well, yes, a very deep connection. He played my father for all of all of 12 seconds on screen.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:29

It's funny because there are like there was a series of you know cameos like Whoopi Goldberg, really great, exciting. But they were just old people that just were notable, people that were notable and big at the time. Yeah. So it just it fit at the time, and it could have easily not been something talked about as in this way. Oh, totally.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:45

Yeah, I mean, it was like Mel Brooks, and he was the lesser of the cameos. You know, I remember I freaked out when it was uh Leah Thompson was the ballet teacher. I was like, that's Marty McFly's mom. I was like Back to the Future freak.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:59

I was like, you know, I didn't know a lot of things. We were so little, but you know, I got to work directly with Mel Brooks with her.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:06

I worked with Mel Brooks in that scene. Right, and I didn't really in that scene with McFly, I didn't really know like you're like he's like the biggest in in the industry of like just yeah creators.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:15

I did a I did a funny thing on uh on because uh I don't know if you know that Mark Mark Hamill's like really big on social media, and so like I did I did a thing where I like I tagged him and I asked him, I was like, can we do now that like AI and CG is so advanced? I'm like, can we just do like can I have you as my dad? And can I have like Luke Skywalker as my dad instead of Trump in the movie? Can we just like can we just like do a little special edition like overlay? And it's just Mark. Director's cut director's cup. Can I can I have you as my dad, please? Thanks.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:45

Of of all the years you've been doing this and all the wonderful people you've worked with, like, is there someone who stands out who had the most impact on your life? Like just inspiration, like who is it? Like, what's a really cool story of someone you know you were stoked to work with, and like I said, had a big impact on your life?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:01

What a what a perfect word usage, stoked to work with. Because it's I it's Brian Stokes Mitchell. Um, he was the star of Ragtime, sure, you know, theater legend, Tony Award winner. The way in which he steered our company, it taught me what being a lead, being a f you know what we would call a final bow in a show. Um, what that means and the responsibility of it, and how when somebody really cares about everyone, from the swing that maybe gets to go on once a month all the way to the co-star lead and every person on the crew and every person in the theater to the ushers, to the front of house, to the box office, that man is a pinnacle of

Mentors, Leadership, And Pride In Work

SPEAKER_00 1:04:50

artistry meets kindness, meets just care. Yeah. And that working with him and learning from him, watching him do that, was uh probably one of the most impactful things. I mean, everything about that process really impacted how I look at art and how I try to make art. There, there was something so special, and he was so kind and he was so such a mentor to me. And so, you know, his he was just had like an open door policy. You know, his dressing room was just like, you know, here he is the lead of the show. And it's a very, you know, if if the listeners don't know what, you know, what the role of Colehouse in Ragtime is, it's not, it's it's intense. It's not, you know, you it's not like, oh yeah, come come hang out, kid. Like I'll tell you a story about something, you know. And just the the kindness, you know, I it was it was a wild thing to experience, you know. And I learned so much on how to. Yeah, yeah. And when I and cause the first time I ever was was there ever was a final bow in a musical was this last year when I did Boy from Oz. And I was like, day one of rehearsal, I was like, Oh my God, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta pull it together. I gotta, I, I am the I'm the final bow. Like every I gotta I gotta care about every single person on stage at all times. Like that, that is my job. Like I am, I am yeah, I'm the captain of this ship. I opened it and closed it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a great experience. So it was really, you know, I I really pulled on everything that I could remember from him. That's cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:21

And that's so interesting because like I mean, it's the same thing. Like I'm a cameraman now, and like if the lead actor sets the standard for the whole show. Yes. You know, if they're an asshole, we're gonna be miserable all the time. They're gonna make it as miserable as they want to or as wonderful as they want to. Yeah. And you know, that's the same thing with, you know, the huge huge directors are, you know, small directors who are wonderful and inspiring, who you would go into the worst situations with and do your best possible job. Or, you know, the ones you just can't fucking wait to leave. You're gonna do the bare minimum because they're uninspirational and you know, and that you know, that's definitely a a a big deal with like number one on a call sheet. You know, yeah. Who's the GOAT child actor of all time, in your opinion?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:01

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:02

Natalie Wood. Natalie Wood. Yeah, I was not expecting that answer. That's pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:08

Yeah, Natalie Wood. Yeah. Um what's your still go still go back to that original miracle on 34th Street, you know, and I feel like that's one of the best kid actor on-screen performances of all time. Yeah. Um, and then I don't know if you ever saw this movie that she did later in not later in life, but when after she was grown up, she was not a child anymore. But um, she did this um movie called Inside Daisy Clover about a child actor that grows up in the industry. And then it's basically like a mental breakdown. Um, and it's one of the most incredible performances. And I she definitely, I mean, I don't know if she I'm sure she was interviewed about it, but she she definitely draws on something that you know it's it's called Yeah, and it's it's it's an amazing watch. If you haven't seen it, like go watch that movie. It's it's a wildly brilliant performance. Okay. Um yeah, and I I was always inspired by her because she started as you know, just the cute kid in all of those movies, all of those movies through the like the golden age kind of era, and then became this incredible adult actor.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:13

Yeah, there's very few that continued, like you know, you know, Jason Bateman. Yeah. There's not many that are like that, Natalie Portman that were Treasure Bill. Treasure Bill that had that. And oftentimes they have some kind of break period where they can probably refine themselves at a different age. Yep. But and usually they're not from here in a lot of cases.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:33

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:34

But it's uh it's a grueling industry to be able to make it through and become more famous as an adult as you get older, versus just kind of still, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:42

Have you all both already revealed yours on the We haven't?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:45

Oh mine's Amanda Bynes. Like Amanda Bynes watching her when I was a kid, I was like, this is my leader. Yeah. Like I just found her wildly entertaining. Like everything she did was just the greatest thing in the world. I thought she was the funniest person in the world.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:03

I loved her. I thought she was I loved her movies. Um, I think she was really is, you know, just a really special talent. And um she's she'd be like, she's a dream guest of mine, so maybe I'm figures.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:17

The whole Amanda please. Like she she was also doing sketches on on all that and her own show that were not just a kid being wacky and funny. Yeah, that was like genuine, uh really well-crafted comedy.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:29

Yeah, she's good. Um character building, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:32

Mine's still probably more of an obvious choice, but I make it now with McCoy Colkin because hearing him now be more open and talking about it, which he hasn't, it seemed like for a long time. Just saw him in Fallout. Any every time you see him at a at a basketball game, he's on the camera. He just did one of the award shows. Yeah, he looks so happy at every time of just being doing the little bit he's doing by choice. Yeah, that's we keep using that word. Like he talks about like I'm I do a job and then I retire, and then I retire for something I want to do, and like he looks he can do it for what he wants, he's happy. And seeing that makes me kind of go like he's found it way versus like he seemed like he went very far away from it, never talked about it, he never saw him, and now he's come back and it's nice to see. Yeah, because he's the one that like everyone wants to root for and see him and see again and just talk to him.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:21

Yeah. Macaulay's awesome. Yeah, this is so random, but if if we had a little rascals all grown up calendar, what month would you be? Ooh.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:30

And what would the spread look like? Yeah, I I think I would have to be a summer month. I think Waldo would have to be a summer month. Like in August? Yeah, that seems August vibes. That feels right. Yeah. You know, we we would we would think of him now as you know, probably a problematic human. Or maybe his father turned him into a philanthropist. Maybe you would have gone. Oh, yeah, well, let's hope for that. This is this is a choose your own. It's your own adventure. Okay, so we're gonna choose that. Yeah, we're gonna choose that. That he's yeah. Okay, big, big, uh, yeah, big, big donor to good causes.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:01

Are you are you saying we're gonna do a we're gonna get rascals and make this and sell it online?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:05

Just throwing it out.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:06

Put some money together. It's not a bad idea. Yeah, but sadly, if we all like the reunion when we all got into character, if we did that for anything again, oh yeah, it would be fun.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:16

Yeah, sadly, we can't get everyone. Are you proud of your body of work? You've done so much cool shit. Like, like, are you happy with it? Do you look are you proud?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:24

It took me a long time to get there, being really honest. But yes, now I am. I am. Um, and I I it's it's interesting because a lot of my friends that were not working professionals as kids, there was a lot of, you know, were a lot of us that were the same graduating class, you know, all turned 40 this past year. And there was a lot of like age freakout I noticed among my peer group. And I was like, I finally feel like I can relax. Like, oh, we got there. Like, and I think a lot of it has to do with coming to terms with that. Sure. Knowing that, you know, I can look at that and go, wow, what a cool life that was. You know, how how neat these things, these stories, these and that people still care. Yeah. You know, that's like literally the people that are gonna listen to this, like still care and still love that. And it makes them happy to have that little like point of connection to this thing they grew up with. Yeah, like that's so beautiful perspective. It's so cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:25

Well, from and also from not appreciating it for years to being able to itself is is like the goal.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:30

Yeah. I had it. Um, I was with my friend, uh, my one of my best friends from college, has become a very successful drag queen and was like a finalist on RuPaul's drag race. And so he was doing a gig at the Disney convention at D23, and we were like getting him out of drag to go back into the back into the like artist holding area. And we walk in and open the door, and standing right there is Jodie Benson, the voice of Ariel from The Little Mermaid. And he goes, he doesn't miss a beat. He looks up and he goes, Jody Benson, I love you. And she looks at us and she goes, I love you too. Who are you? And so we introduce ourselves and have this wonderful thing, we take a photo with her, we have this wonderful thing. And I was like, and that filled my soul so much. And I was like, oh my God, if I can do a if I can make people feel like a little minor percentage of like how Jody Benson, Ariel, made me feel. Like, and I my, you know, the swell of just that. Like it's just like something so iconic from your childhood, you know. I'm like, if I can do that, even a piece of that for someone, it's so it makes it all worthwhile.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:39

You have to change from when, you know, making it by yourself, like I'm still grappling with liking it or not. And then you get all these people that like, especially now, like you were a big part of my childhood. Yeah, I'm showing it to my kid, and they say that online under different posts. And like, when you read that over and over, it is really nice because we were a lot part of a lot of people's childhood. Like, we could have had a whole child doctor career and not been in this movie and not had that.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:02

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:03

And we're very lucky to be in that movie that was a part of people's childhood, like a few other movies.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:09

And it's nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:10

Well, I think about I think about that a lot. The specificity of Little Rascals and like what that means to people, that particular film, that it like and and because people love to introduce it to their kids. Like it has gone generation to generation. It boggles the mind, really. I remember in my little jaded brain when we were on our press tour and we went to see a screening of Little Giants that came out the same. Loved it. I loved it. Loved that movie.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:39

They don't make them like that either.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:41

We loved it. And I remember sitting, I think we were in San Jose or uh somewhere, somewhere up in the Bay Area. And we were we saw it, and I remember thinking, well, that's it. We're screwed. That's the hit. I was like, that's the hit. That's the hit. That's the hit.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:55

It's such a good movie.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:56

I like thinking I had show business all figured out, thinking I had box office all the time.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:00

Well, you probably had it more figured out than most of us, Blake. Well, there's only a few.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:02

There's that, there's Sandlod, Mighty Ducks, like little Giants, but they try to they try to redo it again, I think, for Little Radical Straight to DVD. Oh, yeah, they didn't get that. And like it was almost, you know, it was almost funny to see like nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:16

We're you know, we're still number one. I didn't, I didn't watch, I didn't watch it.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:20

I didn't know I didn't, I just saw like it blip by. And but it's also it's what happened was almost an accident with like Penelope was a very known and established director that made a film somehow controlling a set of kids, children, which is insane. I I I can't watch one watch my own daughter as one

AI, Immersive Theater, And What Lasts

SPEAKER_02 1:15:40

kid.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:40

I can't imagine like 10 of them in a room. What she accomplished pretty much single-handedly. I mean, we had a great crew, but it, you know, she was she was steering that ship. And my gosh. And and to think now as an adult, thinking back, of she had just come off, like they had just wrapped Wayne's world. Yeah, way when we started rehearsal for wrestling. I'm like, poor Penelope, what was she going for? Different film. Like, oh, I didn't know what I signed up for. There's a lot of kids. She had just had like months of Mike Myers and Data Carvey just being brilliant, where you could just film anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:14

Everything's usable.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:16

And Porky doesn't want to do his line. He's like four years old, but like No, I want a nap. Oh, but they're we're for like four, five, six, seven. Like, like, what do you say?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:24

Like, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I have to listen. You know, it's funny. I ran into a couple of a couple of people who actually worked on the Little Rascals, like on the crew. Oh, nice. Now, like just on movies and TV shows I've done over the last 15 years. Um, and one of them in particular, his name's George Bamber. He was a DGA trainee on the Little Rascals. Oh. And I ran into him on a TV show, and he came up to me and he's like, he was the first A D. He's like, Blake, do you remember me? And I'm like, no. He goes, My name's George. I was the DGA trainee on The Little Rascals. Oh my gosh. I pretty much had to wrangle all of you all the time. And like it was just such an it was such an emotional moment because it was the first time I ran into someone who like knew me from that era. From that side. And he's he's had this amazing career since then, and it all started with Little Rascals. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:10

I've experienced that first for him.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:11

Yeah, I'm just gonna George's gonna do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:13

To wrangle kids, not what you signed up for. Yeah, that's not what you just signed up for being like a DJ training position.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:18

You definitely think you're getting something more glamorous.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:20

Right. If you could go back and give six-year-old Blake any advice about the biz, you know, do you have anything that comes to mind?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:30

I it's hard because it's like there's so much hindsight's 2020. Sure. I I you know, I think Yes to high school musical. Yes to high school. Maybe yes to maybe yes to high school musical. Yeah, probably that. Probably to not to not stop when I got tired. Sure. Cause every time every time in my life that I was tired and and kept pushing, kept going, you know, like in the in the healthy way, not in the like, not at the like at the expense of my actual well-being, but like, you know, you're when you're just over it, when you just have those humps. Every time I pushed over the hump, there was a giant reward. And every time I didn't, I missed a reward. So like maybe I would just say, like, no, I don't know. That's a great, that's a great question. Because I don't know if I would have won it.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:18

Would he like would he have won it? Because it wasn't if if you take that, you know, for going down that like right that path that could have coulda shoulda woulda. You get that role, you're not turning back. And I I'm just asking, were you ready and wanting to because that would have been more like actual acting versus the first time?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:32

And it would have been a really hard, you know. I think I think I think a lot of a lot of the time about that. And I think about like how I kind of was able to like, you know, have a little bit of anonymity in that that period where I could kind of become who I have become and and you know, do we without that, I would be a very different person. So it's not, again, no regrets, but I think I would say not to do it differently, but to just say, like, you know, if you've if you're starting to feel that fatigue, it probably means that there's something important coming down the pike or something, there's there's more to be told, and there's more to be, and that's kind of how I try and approach things now of like I I want to continue telling stories, and that just that just might look different. Yeah, it doesn't look like the traditional, the traditional way. There is no one right way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:21

I think there's gonna be a massive resurgence of theater, especially with like with what's happening with AI. I agree. Because I mean, you're a moron if you think that AI is not gonna replace actors eventually because the the fraction of the cost. I mean, you know, an A actor, an AI actor doesn't need a rehearsal, they don't need a hair and makeup person, they don't need a hair and makeup trailer. Nope. You know, they don't have an excuse to not be there, you know. And um, I think that people are gonna yearn for that human experience and we're gonna go backwards, and people are gonna want theater because like that's you can't AI that you know that's watching people who are at the top of their fucking game, yep, and they have one shot at this, nothing to hide, bobby, nowhere to hide. There's no cut, let's go again.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:59

Nope, you know, it's all happening in the room. Yeah, it's what and also like the younger generations, even though they've grown up with screens, they're flocking to these immersive experiences.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:09

And to analy and to analog, like like the wires back on the headphones and a lot of things, and it goes, it all goes back.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:14

And I think that's why we're seeing a lot of this theater stuff that is environmental, that is immersive. You know, even breaking the grounds of traditional proscenium theater is being is more popular than it's ever been.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:23

And I think it gets connected and connected to something else.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:25

Exactly. You literally cannot be distracted.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:29

Yeah. I really hope that the AI thing is is more of a trend. I mean, and people, you know, it's it's a tool, it's sure it's a useful tool in many different facets of life, but entertainment and art, like I just don't think it was made for that. I don't think it was made for that. I don't think that was the intention of it, but if it can be monetized, it surely will be. And I think theater is just a wonderful way for people to always just connect with that human absolutely, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:52

Yeah, the things that I worry about with that is like the you know, the things like the ADR industry. Sure, you know, of like a fast report voiceover and voiceover, and it's almost in its entirety. That's where it's at, it's terrifying.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:04

Because you don't you wouldn't even know. I think and if it enables more content to be made, because like if the core of the service helps costs come down, maybe a little less production-heavy resources, and now more more films and shows that would have not been made get made. Sure. That's the first layer of like where it helps. But then like we all know when it can be monetized, when it can be more profitable, less cost, like it's just gonna happen. Yeah. So I think like I saw a conversation with Matthew McCone talking to actors of like you just have to trademark and own yourself, yes, and own your likeness. And I think the if people continue to be scared and try to fight something, you can't fight technology.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:39

No, it's not a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:39

Embrace how you can how it can help you to do what you want to do. Yep. You can stay ahead.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:44

Yep. I do hope that people speak up and have and like want that more like human, you know, to watch humans act and humans perform, and like know that there's humans behind the camera, like me, you know, who earn a paycheck through that. And you know, it's hundreds of people behind the camera, and that affects all of their everyone. It it's a massive shift that's coming. And um, it's kind of up to the audience whether to decide if it stays or goes, accepted or not, accepted or not. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:11

Um and I can see a world in which it's like a you know, the new version of like a like B movie were in the 70s, you know, where it's like, oh, okay, well, we'll watch this, you know, where you literally mentally categorize it as something different.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:24

Yeah, like a cheap AI horror film.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:26

It'll be like, oh, that's fun. Yeah. When you're not taking your phone seriously, but it's fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:30

When your phone's the first screen, it can be background noise, that's good enough. Right. But people

Letting Kids Perform With Guardrails

SPEAKER_02 1:22:35

will still put down their phone or do something when it's either something.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:39

Hopefully. We'll see. You know. Hypothetically, if you have a child, would you ever consider putting them in entertainment? And specifically, you know, child actor?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:50

Yeah, it's hard to say. I uh I always answered this question absolutely not, like very vehemently. But now I'm like, now that I'm a little older, I'm like, well, what if what if I were to have a kid that came out like me and just like needed to be constantly singing and dancing and acting and doing and performing even in play? You know, like I think about my dearest, you know, friends that I call my siblings, they we weren't blood related, but literally my brother and sister. And I think about like us in the backyard, like putting on pirate shows. Like, not like literally for play, we were creating theater. And I'm like, so if I had a kid like that, well, how who am I to deny, who am I to deny, deny them the opportunity? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:28

It's like what form of it is also part of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:30

Yeah, it's what form of it, it's checks and balances. It's you know, I would, I would look at it very, you know, very intensely. I wouldn't go into it lightly. Um, but you know, it is funny how that perspective has shifted. I was very much a absolutely not they can make that choice when they're 18. And now I'm like, yeah, but everything the world has changed, the industry's changed, everything's different. So, you know, who who am I to make that decision for, you know, if I were to one day have a kid that, you know, had the talent and had the desire.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:01

Yeah. Well, you it's also uh you, a part of it for you came from you, versus it's different if a parent just says, I'm gonna put you in this, whether you want to or not, versus like you said, you clearly have this energy, this enthusiasm, you want it, you want to do something.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:17

I'm gonna find the outlet that that matches that works for you. Yeah. And it would, and that's the thing. It would never be a it would never be like you should you should do this. Like you should take a dance class.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:26

I found my side hustle, child.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:28

Yeah. I'm not I'm I mean, I've talked about this with Christina a little bit. Like when we have an infant, like we're five months pregnant, so we have a baby coming. Like I don't see anything wrong with throwing them in a couple, like, you know, some baby scenes. I mean, that's a quick way to build up a college fun. Like, I've seen how much these kids like on these TV shows and movies, but they make a shitload of money. Yeah, you know, yeah, and they're there for five minutes. Absolutely. Before it actually has a chance to like have any effect on their psyche or how they are how they grow up, like you know, we'll just pull them out of it. But that's kind of my plan. We'll see how it goes. We'll see.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:59

Yeah, absolutely. Because that the yeah, because if you can if you can contribute to that college fund right out the gate, that's a blessing.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:06

Yeah, you know, just keep that Coogan fund locked up. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:09

Investments just refer back to that blue book. Totally.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:13

So, Blake, it was wonderful to have you.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:16

Thank you so much. It was wonderful to be here. This is great.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:18

I'm thrilled that you guys are doing this. Thank you for sharing like all the wonderful stories. And you know, I I think I think you're a very inspirational one of child actors. You know, you did so much cool stuff, like I've said, and um, you know, it goes so much, it it goes so far beyond just like the little rascals, you know, and there's there's so many different outlets of of performing and entertaining, and you know, and you've kind of covered them all. And um, I think you could actually be an inspiration to a lot of kids who like want to do this, and you're kind of the gold standard of how they turn out. Like you turned out pretty great, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:51

You know, I've had my moments, but of course we all know.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:53

We all do we all do.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:54

We go through talk about us as adults as you saw we are doing well.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:58

But it is it's it's uh one of the goals of this podcast was you know, whatever the idea of child actors get brought up, there's always some negative connotation, you know, about whether you, you know, abuse and poor management of money and like your family falling apart. And it's nice, like it's not all like that. Like there is a very wholesome and and wonderful side of it. And I think that you're a great example of that, you know, because you had wonderful parents and you know, you grew up to be a wonderful man.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:24

And I feel very lucky, you know. I do I do feel very lucky because it's like you know, we we know we know those horror stories and the ones that are very real, and it's like it's it's heartbreaking. So I do feel very fortunate that I'm not, you know, that I that that's not how things went for me. And I I really, really grateful.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:41

And I feel very fortunate to have shared this experience with you and like and you know, little rasp, we're all connected for life. Yes, absolutely. And like even if we don't see each other or talk to each other for 10 years, like I could just, you know, you could walk in the room and I'm I feel like I'm back with my little body again. Absolutely. You know, and I really appreciate you and thank you for coming on.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:58

Thank you. I appreciate you both too. This is wonderful. Thanks.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:03

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