SPEAKER_00 0:00

My name's Dan. I helped to run Bible school with Tim. We're super privileged to welcome Ed to speak to us this evening. As Dave set up says, Ed wears a lot of different hats. He's Chair of Trustees of Woodlands group of churches. He is a financial advisor and governance advisor to charities, he's an accountant, and is also someone who leads one of the churches in our group of churches as well. Ed, thanks so much for coming to speak to us tonight. If you haven't been to Bible school before, um it's a bit more informal, a bit more seminar style, so there will be some time for questions at the end. But if you have any questions, please do um hold them to the end so that um Ed can get through his content and um then we'll have space for that at the end. Can I pray for you, Ed, before we start? Lord God, I thank you for the opportunity to hear from you through Ed tonight. I thank you that you care about stuff like money as well as the big sort of spiritual things as well, that money for us um can be such a worry, can be such a pressure, that you care about those things too. I pray that you'd speak through Ed, that you'd guide his words and give him wisdom to speak to us tonight. In your name. Amen.

SPEAKER_03 1:07

Amen. Thanks, Dan. Hi, everybody. Um, well, thanks for coming down. You know, you had a choice to make and you made a choice. Thank you for choosing to come down here. Um, it's great to uh just take a chance this evening to have a little think together about what the Bible says about money. Now, just a little bit of a kind of a disclaimer. We're only going to be able to explore some of what the Bible says about money because we have not very much time at all. But as we know, and probably why you are here, is that money matters to all of us. Whether we've got a lot of it, whether we've got a little of it, um, whether we think about it constantly or whether we barely give it a second thought, whether we spend most of our time earning it or most of our time spending it, money is really, really important. And here's the thing: money matters, but it seems like money matters a lot to God as well. Because the Bible is jam-packed full of teaching about uh money. It's much more extensive and much clearer than we might imagine. Uh, in fact, to be honest, I think it's a bit uncomfortably clear at times what it says about money. Um about 15% of Jesus' recorded words were about money or possessions. And in the Gospels, 16 out of the 38 parables focus on money and possessions. That's almost half of the parables about money and possession. Clearly, God thinks that money is quite an important topic. But before we we dive in, I've just kind of come up here with a kind of a few money myths, things that kind of we might even think, we might think ourselves, or we might hear other people say, or we might hear kind of a bit of worldly wisdom, and we we hear these myths. You might identify with with some of these. Money is just a worldly practical concern, it doesn't have anything to do with faith or or or the Bible. Uh, my money belongs to me. My money belongs to me. Money is bad, right? Because after all, it says in the Bible, doesn't it, that money's the root of all evil. You know, money's got to be bad. Uh, it might be that we'll think kind of wealth is sinful and poverty is holy. Now we might not put it quite as bluntly as that, but actually that might be a kind of a feel we get from uh talking to people. Another money myth. If I have enough money, it will eliminate all the worry in my life. More money equals more happiness. Now I think I think we all know that's a myth. We all know that's a myth, don't we? Kind of, you know, we all know that more money doesn't make you more happy, and yet I just kind of wonder whether, when push comes to show, whether people really do uh believe that or not. It's some generosity myths. Generosity is natural and it's spontaneous. That only rich people are generous, only rich people are generous, and linked with that, you know, I'd be generous if I had more money. I'll be generous if I had more money. These are uh nine myths that I I think are ones that quite often people think when they're thinking about the Bible and money. Did anyone identify with some of those or hear some of those at all? Yeah, one or two of you. That's fine, that's good. So um we're gonna be addressing some of these myths as we go along, as we we dive into to the Bible, and we are going to use a chapter from Paul's first letter to his protege uh Timothy. We're gonna use um uh one of the chapters as just as a bit of a launch pad for us to explore some key themes in the Bible um about money. And and here's an extract. We're gonna start with uh with uh 1 Timothy 6, 17 to 19. So if you've you've got a Bible with you, um you can uh look it up or it'll be on the screen as usual. So uh Timothy, sorry, Paul says this to Timothy. He says, Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant or to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way, they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life. Now, I've got a confession to make to you. I reckon probably until a few years ago, I'm not sure I even realized that these verses were here in the Bible. It's almost like I kind of got to them and I almost like skipped over them. And I remember the first time they kind of jumped out at me. And and you might, I don't know, it might be you feel the same because you know we can be tempted to have this reaction. We look at that first line and we say, command those who are rich in this present world. And we think to ourselves, well, I can see how other people need to read that bit of the Bible, but that's not me. I'm not rich. And I think you know what I'm gonna say, and we've just kind of heard a little bit, haven't we, upstairs? That by global standards, I would say most of us in the room, I would say maybe all of us in the room, by global standards, are very, very rich indeed. And I wonder, therefore, whether we need to take note of the message to those who are rich. Someone earning the average median UK salary is in the top 3% of earners in the world. Um, that's after tax and after you know cost of living adjustments. Top 3%, if you earn the average, median, if you're you should be suspicious of statistics. Um, you know, this is median, this is average, this is kind of line everyone up in a big row and choose the middle one. Um even someone on the UK minimum wage is in the top 7% of earners globally. Now, of course, we're not ignoring local poverty. We're not ignoring the fact that in this city there is food insecurity, there's homelessness, there's energy poverty. You know, those are real needs, aren't they, in our city? But I I guess what I'm saying is we is we um we look at this Bible passage as a platform for other ones. Let's not think that perhaps Paul means somebody else. Uh actually, this is relevant to us. Now, a few years ago, the Marsh family went to South Africa. We went to visit hands at work at one of our global partners, and we visited two of the poorest communities in the world. And I had the opportunity to meet this lady uh here. She's one of the local care workers, uh, and she um, you know, she was, I was asking her a little bit about her life, and she was saying, uh talking about the fact that you know she was involved in providing a hot meal once a day to orphaned children. She was kind of talking with a smile on her face about this small hut that she she lived in. Um, and and then she she asked me, she she asked me a question. She said, Oh, tell me about tell me about your life, tell me about your local community, tell me um about your house. It was a really interesting experience trying to kind of explain to her what my life was like. You know, it's a bit weird. And but imagine if I had kind of said to her, Oh, actually, you know, I'm feeling a bit under a bit of financial pressure at the moment. Um, you know, the flights to get here were quite expensive, and we've just done a little house extension, and and actually, gosh, our summer holidays coming up. I'm feeling the pinch a little bit. There's something a bit wrong with that, isn't there? There's something a bit wrong. So when uh when when Paul is writing about the rich, I wonder whether he might be writing about me. I wonder. Uh Dave Ramsey, he's a a New York Times best-selling author, Follower Jesus. He says this, you probably don't feel rich. Rich is the other guy. Rich is having more than you currently have, but you can be rich and not feel it. And that's the problem. Most of us are richer than we think. We just aren't very good at it. It's one of the it's one thing to be rich, it's another thing to be good at it. And that's the heart of Paul's message, and that's the heart of so much of the biblical message about money. That, you know, if you are rich in this present world, and you probably are, you probably are, then it's possible to be really bad at it, and it's possible to be good at it. And scripture shows us how. So here are the here are the themes that we're going to look at uh this evening, and I've kind of crowbared them into three words that end in ship, just to kind of try and make it a little bit more memorable for you. Lordship, stewardship, and fellowship. And the first of these themes is lordship. Lordship asks the question, it's a big theme all the way through the Bible. It asks the question: who's in charge? Who's in charge of your life? Who or what is going to be your master? Where is your loyalty going to lie? And Jesus teaches the Sermon on the Mount, he teaches in Matthew chapter six. He says, Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth where moths and vermin destroy, where thieves break in and steal, but store up for yourselves treasures in heaven where moths and vermin do not destroy and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. The eye is a lamp for the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. Uh, if then, sorry, next slide. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness? No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you'll be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money. The the word that that Jesus uses here for money is this kind of Aramaic word, sort of mammon. It's this general term for not only kind of money, but the material possessions, the things that money buys. In other words, Jesus is not just talking about kind of coins in our wallets, he's not just talking balances in our bank account, he's talking about the stuff that money buys. And out of all the things that Jesus could have chosen, He He puts money and possessions up there as the chief competitor of lordship in our lives to God. It's the chief competitor with God for our hearts. It's not Satan, it's not sin, it's not even Netflix, it's it's money and possessions. That's what he's saying is competing for our preoccupation. And Jesus gives this direct challenge in this passage. He says, You cannot serve two masters, there's only room for one number one. And you know, Jesus talks here about being devoted to the one and despising the other. Devotion is about attachment, it's about kind of what captures our time and our attention, our desires. And you know what, uh the the Bible doesn't have a problem with money. The Bible doesn't have a problem with money. Money is not evil, money is not bad. The problem is not with money itself, but it's with misplaced devotion. And that's a huge theme all the way through scripture. There's a lot of talk about money, but it's always to do with the heart. The real issue is never how much money do we have, it's how much money has us. How much money has us. And so I think in in scripture we see kind of two key reasons why money can end up kind of being our master. And and we can see this in the passages that we've we've we've we've looked at, a desire for security, you know, this kind of uh desire to kind of have a have their hope in wealth, to store up for ourselves treasures on earth. And you know, we know when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness, you know, one of those kind of temptations was being challenged to turn stones into bread, you know, it's tapping into this basic human drive that we see throughout history, that desire for humans to have material security, to have what they need. And we can be tempted, we can all be tempted to think that, oh, if only I've had enough, then that will make me secure. And we all know, don't we, if if we went to a financial advisor and we were asked the question, you know, how much money do I need to have so that I can kind of cover all you know negative eventualities that might always be? What's their answer going to be? More than you've got at the moment, isn't it? It's gonna be more than you've got at the moment, it's definitely gonna be more than you've got at the moment, and you know, it's absolutely biblical to save, it's biblical to plan wisely. You know, we see it with Joseph, don't we? And planning resources and storing up for kind of times of famine. We we see just the uh in the Bible we see so much about that giving thought to our ways and and and giving careful planning before we build. It's absolutely right to live with some margin to handle some bumps in the road. But the more that we put our faith in money instead of God, the more money begins to control us and master us. Because what or who we trust ends up being our master. And and scripture all the way through shows the real futility of that, doesn't it? You know, money and possessions, they can disappear in a moment. You know, we can't take it with us when we go. You know, Jesus tells a story in Luke's gospel of the um the man who keeps building bigger barns and to store all the wealth that he's generated and and he dies suddenly and he leaves it all behind. You know, Paul, just earlier on in the chapter we're looking at, 1 Timothy 6, Paul says this. He says, For we brought nothing into the world and we can take nothing out of it. So that's the first thing. I think that that money being our master comes from a desire for security. Does that make sense? And then secondly, I think that that money being our master comes from this thing called greed, this desire for more, a kind of a discontentment. There's something about money in our world that kind of in our materialistic world just kind of leads to people thinking, oh, I just kind of want more and more. I remember just really kind of silly example. I remember being a child. Anyone remember Argos catalogs? Do they still exist? I used to get an Argos catalogue, I used to get a big pen. I used to kind of circle everything that I really wanted to put in my bedroom. If only I had the money. Richest man in history, Don John D. Rockefeller, he said this. Uh he was asked, you know, how much money does it take to make someone happy? And he says, quite obviously, just a little bit more. Just a little bit more. There's something in human nature that says, Oh no, I haven't got enough. I want to go for more and more. Uh, we read it throughout Ecclesiastes. Whoever loves money never has enough. Whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with their income. There's this discontentment, there's this desire for more. And earlier on, again in 1 Timothy 6, those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. It's great, isn't it? For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. Really, really strong words, isn't it, about money here? Really strong words, but but profoundly true. Desire for more can spiral just completely out of control and lead to regret and debt. People stop asking, you know, can I afford something? Then we're asking, can I afford the minimum monthly payment to be able to buy something? The thing about greed, of course, is it promises happiness, but it delivers so often anxiety and stress and relationship tension and breakdown and guilt and regret. And Paul's words, he says they've pierced themselves with many griefs. He makes it clear that that's kind of self-inflicted. You kind of done it to yourself, you've gone after this more. And so we see these two things, I think, kind of throughout this desire for security and desire for more. And we see them, of course, in our world today, don't we? Um, and then I guess what's the antidote? What are some of the ways in which we can have answers to these key uh issues that mean that so often money can be people's master? Uh 1 Timothy 6, uh again, uh Paul writes a little bit earlier that godliness with contentment is great gain. Paul loves this topic of contentment. He writes about it to the Philippian church. He kind of says, the Philippian church, they they give him a financial gift, and so he responds and he says this. He says, I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in every any and every situation, whether well-fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want, I can do all this through him who gives me strength. I have learned the secret of being content. The word content here in the uh the Greek literally means kind of self-sufficient. It kind of means having enough, having what you need. And so what Paul is doing is kind of saying contentment, you know, I've I've got enough, but I've not got that enough in possessions and circumstances. There is a secret to this contentment, and it's coming from somewhere else. And he says this and says, I can do all this through him who gives me strength. The secret of contentment that Paul is saying, it's not as we might imagine, it's not a bank balance, it's not a possession, it's not an upcoming holiday that we're looking forward to. The secret of contentment is a person is a person. Contentment comes through Jesus. It's him who satisfies that longing we have for more. It's him who affirms our identity and confirms our worth. It's him who brings that deep satisfaction that that money just is kind of not providing. And contentment is being able to say, and I kind of like to think that kind of Paul's almost like saying he's saying, Oh, thanks so much for your gift, guys. Great gift. But the truth is I would have been fine without it. Because I've found that Jesus is enough. I've found that Jesus is all that I need. And so what's the antidote to uh to that kind of sense of desire for more, that that desire for security? Well, it's contentment. How do we find that? How do we find that peace and contentment? And you know, it starts with doing so much of what we've done this evening, worshiping, uh focusing on loving God, doing the things that kind of grow our trust and our reliance on Him. It's about relationship, it's about a person. You know, and when God is our first priority, materialism just kind of, yeah, I think it kind of ebbs away a bit, and money no longer becomes our master. Deborah, this is my wife, Deborah. When Deborah and I were first got married, uh, we didn't really have very much at all. Um but you know, do you know what? It didn't really matter that much because being together was enough. You know, I was thinking I was kind of wasn't well just say, yeah, that's nice. Valentine's Day yesterday. Nice, nice. Um, you know, but you know, I wasn't I wasn't really that interested in stuff because I was so much more interested in her. Same today. When our hearts, yeah, the argus card look. When the uh when our hearts are captivated by the person of Jesus, then contentment follows along. So that's one thing, and then secondly, generosity. A second antidote is generosity. We we read earlier on, didn't we, in Matthew chapter six, Jesus was talking there about treasure and money. Did you notice that little paragraph in the middle? It was a bit of a random bit about eyes. Sometimes I kind of think, yeah, what is what's that bit there for? Um, this bit here says, the eye of the lamp of the body. You're if you if your eyes are healthy, your whole body is full of light, and if you're unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. I'm thinking, gosh, you're talking a moment ago about treasure, and you're just about to talk about money and God and masters. You know, what are you on about? And what Jesus here is using an analogy, he's he's saying that just as healthy eyes, they let in colour, they let in the kind of the vibrant kind of colour that is in creation, and and unhealthy eyes, they bring in darkness. And he's just saying, you know, spiritually, it really matters where you set your sights. Healthy eyes are focused on God and his kingdom and his priorities. Unhealthy eyes, they're they're focused on selfishness and and greed and accumulation, our own agenda. It's interesting just you look at if you've got a um a Bible, you see there's some footnotes here just by kind of healthy and unhealthy. And and the NIV footnote just says the Greek for healthy here implies generous, it's like a just a kind of an implication here for generous. The uh and the unhealthy is it implies stingy. In other words, we can set our sights on generosity, or we can set our sights on greed or stinginess, a wonderful. Word, I love that word, stinginess. Entiright. He knows a lot more of what he's talking about when it comes to the Bible. Generous giving celebrates the fact that Jesus is Lord and money isn't. Generosity is the ultimate antidote for preoccupation with money. Giving, um, you know, giving is a kind of a physical and a spiritual declaration. It's saying, you know, my hope isn't in the money that actually I'm just giving away. My hope is in God. And when we give money, you know, it literally becomes detached from us. But there's something that happens more there spiritually as well. Our hearts are kind of free to serve God rather than to serve money and our possession. So the theme of lordship is a big theme in the Bible when it comes to money. That was the first one. You'll be really pleased to hear the second two are really much, much quicker. What time is it? Very much quicker. Um uh stewardship, the second one. Um, stewardship. Uh, we uh being good at handling wealth, it begins with a realization, you see this theme all the way through the Bible, that uh that that actually it all belongs to God. It's not even us in the first place. The psalmist declares the earth is the Lord's and everything in it. Um again, Paul in in 1 Timothy 6 says, God who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Yeah, it's kind of him, it's from him. He provides it uh to us. King David in 1 Chronicles 29, he just there's just been this kind of incredible outpouring of generosity from people towards the construction of the temple that's to come kind of much later on. And and he he prays and he kind of says this public prayer and he says, But who am I and who are my people that we should be able to give as generously this? After all, everything comes from you, and we have given you only what comes from your hand, only what you have given us in the first place. You know, Jesus talks, doesn't he, in the gospel, he tells the parable of the shrewd manager or the parable of the talents. That it's the same thing, you know, we are entrusted with what belongs to God, and we're accountable for how that we we use it. At the heart of a healthy attitude towards money, at the heart of kind of you know, kind of saying actually, you know, this is the way in which we're going to be great at being rich. We recognise it's not actually ours anyway. It's we're stewards, we're caretakers, we're not uh owners. Everything we have is entrusted to us to care for faithfully. Now, it might surprise you, this word enjoyment kind of sticks out a bit, doesn't it? It might surprise you that God's provision is not just about keeping us alive, but it includes enjoyment of that provision. It includes God providing things that we enjoy. Life in God's created world is to be enjoyed. It's pleasure, it's a good thing. Beauty and blessing that we have in our world. God richly provides for our enjoyment, but we want that enjoyment to be in the context of our stewardship, to be aligned with our stewardship. That when we use resources well, we we honour God's priorities and we recognize our responsibility to Him. You know, Paul's point is clear, and I've I've nicked this. If you are rich, you need not feel guilty, but you do need to feel responsible. You don't need to feel guilty, but you do need to feel responsible. And so, what is the responsible responsibility that comes with wealth? Again, I told you I was going to go quick. Here we go. Third one, fellowship. This is the one I've kind of crowbared in most, I think. Um, Paul says, command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. Then the message version, a paraphrase that says it like this be extravagantly generous. Or, you know, another paraphrase, Francis Bacon, money is like manure, it's not good unless it's spread around. Sorry for that image, but it's it's fairly true. Generosity is not optional for followers of Jesus. Paul says this, he says, command them. Being rich in good deeds and being willing to share, being generous is an essential responsibility of wealth of being a steward of God's resources. And what we see um and what we've we've practiced already this evening is that biblical giving, it's it's relational, it's communal. Um, it's usually in the context, you know, we read Acts chapter 2, don't we, about believers, the early church kind of sharing uh their possessions uh to help to meet others' needs. It's it's always a relational thing. And scripture it consistently warns us against this kind of idea of abusing wealth and neglecting the poor. And wealth is is not just for personal comfort, it's not just for enjoyment, but it's to promote love and justice and it's to promote care for the community. You know, I just um just reminded of in Deuteronomy this um instruction here. If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land that your Lord the Lord your God is giving you, do not be hard-hearted or tight-fisted towards them. Rather, be open-handed and freely lend them whatever they need. Give generously to them and do so without a grudging heart, then because of this, the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore, I command you to be open-handed towards your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy. It's a wonderful thing when our generosity helps meet the needs of other people. And um, and we see again, I've got time to kind of go all the way through from start to end to see just how that is a soundtrack through the history and the story of the people of God. But um, I I need to come into that land because you know, chance for a discuss uh together and to ask a few questions. Um, I just mentioned earlier on a couple of myths about generosity, which I just wanted to cover very quickly. Generosity is natural and spontaneous. Um, try telling anybody with young kids that you're born generous. You know, you have to teach kids how to share, don't you? And it's the same with human beings. Generosity needs to be learned, it needs to be practiced, it needs to be intentional. We need to decide where our treasure is, and then we need to make a plan. That's where kind of money and being organized, I think, so often kind of come together. I really do believe that, not just because I am someone who tries to be an organized person. Um Paul talks about being uh having each of you should decide what you've decided in your heart to give. You make an intention, not reluctantly or under compulsion, but God loves uh a giver who's really cheerful about it and who laughs about it a lot. Is that what that really means, cheerful giver? Enjoy it. Um, and then secondly, only rich people are generous. Um uh once, you know, when I'm rich, then I will be generous. And of course, we often think, don't we, and we use it in our world, we think of generosity as a mount. In reality, of course, we might think, oh, there's that person over there who gave this kind of incredibly large donation to charity. My goodness me, that's a generous donation. But of course, only they know whether that was generous or not. There is no link between being rich and being generous, there's no link whatsoever. And there is a truth. If we aren't generous when we have a little, we are not going to be generous when we have a lot. If we're not generous when we have a little, we are not going to be generous when we have a lot. And Jesus made that really obvious. The widow who gave the two small copper coins. Her gift was kind of greater in his eyes than the rich who gave those larger sums. Generosity is not an income issue, it's a character issue. Generosity is not an income issue, it's a character issue. Now I'm gonna wrap up, but I just want to say that that here at the Woodlands Church family, over the next few weeks, um uh we are gonna be talking quite a bit more about money and stewardship in particular, and especially the the vital role that giving and generosity plays in the life of this church here. So I just want to say look out for that. That's gonna be an opportunity to engage with that. But you know, in conclusion, just as we kind of come for just a bit of discussion and questions with um ten or so minutes to spare, what does the Bible say about money? I I think that in God's eyes, being rich, and remember by most definitions, I'd say most, if not all of us here are very rich indeed. Being rich, it's not wrong. But it's about are we good at it? Are we good at it? When we make Jesus our Lord, when we kind of steward his resources faithfully, when we live generously with other people, when we we realise that our money can be a tool, you know, God's money in our hands can be a tool for his kingdom. And when we make sure it's not a master over us, but but Jesus is. I'm sorry, that probably felt a little bit more like a preach to you than it did a kind of a seminar. So sorry about that. I'm not really used to that. Um, but what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna I'm just gonna very quickly pray for us, and then I'm just gonna invite you to ask any questions. And then uh what do is I'll answer the easy ones, and then I will ask in the room for other people to answer the more difficult ones. So is that all right? So, Lord, um we we we thank you for your word and we thank you for the message of freedom and life that we receive, particularly around money. Thank you that money has the ability to do a tremendous amount of good in the world, but we recognise, we acknowledge the vulnerability sometimes in our hearts to get things the wrong way around. And so, um Lord, I I pray as we just kind of have dived in and looked at some just a few Bible verses, and we've just considered some of those key messages and themes about money, we we just pay attention to yeah, that verse in Proverbs 3, verse 9 says, honour the Lord with your wealth. And Lord, we want to honour you in our hearts, attitude, and motives around money, and the way in which you're calling us to use your wealth, your resources to be a blessing. In Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. I'm gonna invite you, if you'd like to, to make comment um uh at all on anything we've said, any observations you've got, any kind of thoughts you've got, any questions you've got um about money? Any other myths that you think uh there are, for example, just here. Yeah. Thank you so much. I think that's a really, really helpful comment. Um i giving responsibly is really, really important. And I think um I think that's really helpful. Thank you. Any other thoughts, comments? Questions?

unknown 34:50

Just here.

SPEAKER_04 34:57

Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah. Of course. Of course. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:12

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And these are real, these are real issues, aren't they? I mean, I I heard a statistic last week. Almost one third of children and young people in our city are are eligible for free school meals. And that's extraordinary, isn't it? One third, almost one third. And I th thank you, that's a really important. It's just knowing that that could be the Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks, Aaron.

SPEAKER_06 35:56

Other people uh see tithing as um something a bit more specific to the Old Testament and maybe a helpful guide for today, but but nothing, nothing more than a guide, not an instructional command. Um I'd actually just love to hear your opinion on that, really.

SPEAKER_03 36:09

Yeah, yeah. My my opinion, probably I would fall down in the second kind of uh thing you said, that that actually it's a really helpful guideline. It's not something we do away with, but actually, in many ways, as we see in the New Testament, so much of the Old Testament ends up being a starting point. Um, and actually there's all there's something about grace that draws out more from us, something about respond to Jesus that draws out more from us. Now, you know, so personally speaking, I I I practice tithing, but I see tithing as a starting point rather than a something I comply with. Um, it's just a guideline to kind of say, I want to make sure it's always at least this, but my my aim, my my faith goal, our faith goal is that it would actually probably be more than that. Um, but um yeah, so that that's that's my opinion, that's what I feel. Um anybody else want to express an opinion? Yes.

SPEAKER_09 36:57

In a simple term, if I'm saying to God you can say, Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:26

Yeah, I mean I've yeah, quite quite a lot of people kind of yeah, perhaps pause it like this, instead of kind of praying and asking Lord, how much should I give? They say, How much should I not give? How much should I keep? And um, yeah, that's a challenging discipleship decision. Um yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_10 37:55

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But you'll serve the fact that yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:53

Thank you so much for for sharing that. And um, and and you know, God knows you and God sees you, and I think generosity looks like all kinds of different things, you know. We we've talking obviously a lot about money this evening, but but I think generosity, living a life of generosity is so much more than than than money, and um, but I think also uh yeah, I one thing I I recognise in my life at times when I've I've had uh less money. Or I mean so for example, I've that time when I was a student and I didn't have a student loan. Um my wife was kind of working on a really low wage, it was a time when things are actually really tight. And I think really just the question I was asked, I was asking myself during that season was simply um, Lord, I've got financial decisions to make. Um I I've I please help me make those decisions well. Um and Lord, I I want I want giving to just be in the mix of that, those sensible financial decisions. Um, and it's not gonna it's gonna look very different. As I said, everyone can be generous, but it might look completely different for one person to another the next person. But um thank you for um I really really appreciate you speaking up. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 40:08

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 40:15

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:50

Absolutely. Yeah, thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 40:59

Should should generosity be dictated be dictated by need? Anyone else would like to think about that?

SPEAKER_04 41:13

Any thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_03 41:35

Yeah, I well I think that that's very much kind of a personal matter in in in lots lots of ways, is to kind of be praying about that. Now I I um I think, well, so again, I'll say just for me personally, um, quite often when I when we sent sense God saying, Oh, it'd be good for you to be part of meeting that need, um, from time to time I might kind of feel God prompting to provide that complete need. Sometimes I think it's really helpful to leave a bit of room for other people as well to respond to to needs and not just to kind of immediately jump in. And sometimes, sometimes the worst thing we can do is kind of solve an issue immediately. You know, sometimes I think it's helpful just to kind of allow, yeah. Sorry, that's just a personal opinion. Um, and that might not have been what you're asking now. So hopefully, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Um, perhaps time for one more. Thank you.

SPEAKER_07 42:31

Um