SPEAKER_02 0:06

My question was going to be about and I don't know how to learn it. How um what tips would you have so that preaching has a positive impact on your inner spiritual life? Because I guess I'd be concerned that it might actually have a negative impact being on stage and like like being and teaching. Yeah. How does it not do that?

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Good question.

SPEAKER_06 0:31

What a good question. Because those who teach are to be judged more harshly. So again, there's this that's something to consider within the DLC.

SPEAKER_07 0:39

Well, first of all, when when you when you're at university and and you you're given an essay to write, that's where you do a lot of your learning, isn't it? Most of the learning comes from that individual research. But I think that for most people they feel they get more out of a sermon, they learn more by preparing it than what whatever's delivered. And so the the growing part of it, the benefit, will be all in that kind of taking that responsibility, try to listen to God, try to engage with scripture more thoughtfully and with more depth. And then you have to deal with all the complications around ego, which which happens whenever you have anything that has an element of performance in it. And because preaching does have an element of performance in it, you have to manage that for sure. But there are two separate exercises. So and both can be really good for your spiritual formation. You know, and and being willing, as uh uh Rebecca was saying, that if you if you do any public speaking, you will be humbled by by something at some time. So being prepared, so actually it's just gonna it's that's as much as depriving.

SPEAKER_03 1:42

Well, it's huge, yeah. I was gonna say you you will be humbled, and people will come up to you and say something, I'm sure. I'm sure after um, but I've had people give me feedback after I've given feedback, and you know, you pick yourself, but that's good because you can always learn from feedback, I think, however experienced you are.

SPEAKER_06 2:02

Always. Claire and feel that add?

SPEAKER_01 2:05

I just think you have all of us need to intend and be intentional around um growing self-awareness as well. And um this there's if you if you can engage with that aspect of it and and recognise, oh actually I really like it when people praise me and I feel good about myself and you know or what's going on there, and am I feeding off this or just those sort of questions around self-aware questions are essential for leaders generally? And I I would just say, um, can you just be intentional about being self-aware and even just saying out loud to yourself and hearing your own voice say, Yeah, I feel great when everyone praises me.

SPEAKER_06 2:54

It's quite started. I'm gonna think it's good you asked the question. So the danger is when you don't ask the question. So I think it's really great to ask the question.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 3:02

Any other one else, but um yeah, can.

SPEAKER_04 3:05

Yeah, I also have a quick one. So have you ever like got to a Sunday, you've had the whole week, you've prepared your talk, and um you feel so confident in delivering it, you get up on Sunday and the Holy Spirit comes and says, actually, no, I don't need to talk about that. I want to talk about this other thing that you haven't actually looked at. Has it ever happened to you and how have you felt and have you dealt with that?

SPEAKER_07 3:30

Definitely. I mean, I I think I've turned up at the earth and thought, who's preaching? Oh, it's me. But but I I think um I think that when you prepare, and preparation is really important, you can not deliver what you prepare. But if you don't prepare, then you're in trouble. You know, so preparation is fine, but but whether or not you choose not to deliver what you prefer prepared isn't just down to you unless you have real autonomy. It's going to be a collective decision, I think. So just because you feel that, you you might actually be given a brief and you're you're accountable in a church context to others. So and it's that there's and you might be wrong, you know, you you that or it might be your journey. One of the challenges to think about preaching is here's my journey, and here's the journey of the congregation. And if I impose my journey on the congregation, you know, it could be that you know people want to celebrate and you're feeling really down, or or vice versa. And and so being attentive to what the spirit wants to say to everyone is the is the critical thing.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

I suppose there's just a little little caution I have around the idea of being after preach, spending a lot of time praying, preaching, and then God just saying no, just at the last minute, is I'm not sure whether that's I I just have a bit of caution around that kind of God, whether that's the sort of thing that's not the normal goes about doing. Yeah, it would be a very unusual circumstance. And you know, I I remember being in a pre a sermon once at a church once where Dave Winfield, remember him? So um halfway through the sermon, just stopped talking, and then he said, Excuse me a minute, and he sat down, it was in the pulpit, so you couldn't see him, and he just sat down for a few long, long, long, long minutes, and then he suddenly stood up and said, God's just told me not to say anything else. That really impacted me because I as a teenager I thought, look at that, God's actually speaking to him. But um, yeah, generally speaking, I would say that God is not quite like that bossy, in my experience. But I've never preached, so I can't answer the question.

SPEAKER_03 5:40

But what I do say to people who I teach you to preach, I say, of course, you never will preach the same sermon twice because in different contexts and in different situations, exactly the same words. Well, you probably should change them for a different listener, of course. Um, but they will never land in the same way, and you'll be a different person because so that's my input on that one.

SPEAKER_06 6:03

Any other questions?

SPEAKER_03 6:29

You were looking at me. I'm not sure I'd I've uh I mean I've worked abroad, which is really difficult in terms of speaking to people who have spoken a second language, and really uh so English is their second language, so you have to slow down and think about the cultural references you use, but that wasn't again that wasn't preaching. I mean that would be quite unusual because I would say to you, always in a new demographic or church, really research that in terms of cultural sensitivities, the location, the physicality of the building. Um I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 7:03

I think that's you need to know yourself, know the text, know the context. And so do some research about where you're going. And so so I've rarely turned up and not been expecting what I've got because I've I've asked people and made some questions like that.

SPEAKER_07 7:19

A lady called Rachel Hughes, who with her husband does a podcast, and she described an experience like that where the church invited her to come speak and she was really was not appropriate for the for the congregation, and it was a bit of a car crash. So, my my advice would be if you really think it's what you've come prepared with isn't suitable for that congregation, but you can't adapt it. If you're if you you may be able to adapt it on the spot, you may be intuitive and you can just download something very different, but if you can't, then be really brief. You know, give kind of give the content that you sort of summarise the content that you've got you know in in the most accessible way possible, but keep it short.

SPEAKER_03 7:59

And also strip out any anecdotes which are not at all relatable for that congregation. So if you're going to talk probably to a church of a certain class and then the demographic is very different, there may be certain anecdotes or um examples that you give, which could be quite insulting, even possibly. I don't know, but maybe take those away.

SPEAKER_06 8:17

Great.

SPEAKER_05 8:18

Yeah, yeah, I've got one. So I've been a Christian 38 and a half years, so I have heard hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of sermons, and I'm not even sure this is a problem, but my point is a little bit this you know, I get up and preach, and then you know, three days later everyone's like forgotten it because they've heard you know that's that's sermon 834. So is is that an issue? Because you know, not every sermon we've had is life-changing, some are. Is it a little bit sometimes of a like a drip drip drip someone's cup is being filled one drop at a time every Sunday till it overflows?

SPEAKER_01 8:58

Sometimes, yeah, I think it's it's a very good point, and it's it's kind of quite a sobering point that you've got a maybe a half an hour platform and you you feel like you ought to say something that's not totally obvious, at least. But I think some sermons are kind of like meat and tooth veg, you know, they're just keeping the whole congregation healthy, they're sort of, you know, and other sermons are more like an athlete's preparation meal, but in some ways that that's why you have a diet, and why somebody like Dave might be thinking during the year we want to make sure all these things are covered. But not really not all sermons are for us, are they? They're for for the congregation and for the for the culture, and to that whole thing of am I being fed right now? is is slightly that a questionable.

SPEAKER_07 9:48

And the question as well is reminders are how we do life in many contexts, but certainly biblically we do, and so much of scripture is reminding us of stories we've heard lots of times, the Exodus story. How many times have we heard that through scripture, through the Psalms, or whatever? Uh but what it does is it re-engages us with something because we live in the now, and the the engagements that we have heard but are not living in can actually be beneficial for us in that moment. So I think what's going on with with us isn't just the listening, we're also engaging in an act of worship of which the preaching is part of the worship, it's part of that reconnecting of ourselves with the divine and the divine with us in a way that um will be refreshing. Just yeah, I mean, I I have very repetitious conversations with my wife. Most days I say, How was your night? Did you sleep okay? You know, but it's it's we're engaging, we're yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

But that's also sorry, that's also why the question of contested ground is so important. Why are people not already doing it? Why are you not already fulfilling every single of your one of your 834 sermons you've heard? Because there's something contested and it's trying to get it.

SPEAKER_03 11:01

I was just going to take your question a bit more of a slant. I often think to myself, if I were running a church, which I never will do, I would run, I would run, I would run listening workshops to my congregations, and I don't know why church leaderships don't. Because when you're when you're in teaching, you spend a lot these days, people, young people are learning more how they listen. So I'm a visual learner, so someone can stand there and speak beautifully, but if I don't write it down in my notebook, I don't listen, I'll think about what I'm doing next week, just to be honest with you. And I look around my church and think, well, why isn't anyone else learning? Some people, you know, people learn in such different ways, and I think church leaders spend a lot of time on preparing sermons. Let's just really connect with how people are listening and how they want to listen.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Sorry, what do you mean by listening lecture?

SPEAKER_03 11:51

Sorry?

SPEAKER_02 11:51

What do you mean by listening to lecture?

SPEAKER_03 11:53

Oh I think uh, well, in school, just people learn whether they're visual learners. I don't know why it happens a long time since learning how you listen. So people really think some people, my husband can sit and listen to a podcast in the car and he'll remember all of it. I've done the shopping list, planned Christmas. You know, my mind is I'm such my brain's so active, so I have to focus, I have to write, I really need visual cues. Um, some people need more space in the terms of delivery, some people need to do something practical. I mean, I've I I love it if a preacher halfway through said, get up, stand up, move around, iron fidget, sit down, act two. You know, that would just be late with me as a great yeah.

SPEAKER_07 12:36

When he hears a sermon, writes a poem of that sermon. Well, yeah, and then sometimes deliver.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Who does this? You do and do it.

SPEAKER_07 12:44

Honestly, often it's a really helpful summary, very memorable, of the talk. So that's that's that's in a way like your visual learning.

SPEAKER_03 12:53

I'm I'm learning by Steve, but I'm writing a and and also just to say, don't think that the people sitting here like this at church are the ones listening the most. You know, those of us have been in education and you've got someone at the back of the class doing this, and then they they ask the best question at the end. So, you know, don't be fooled by appearing.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Yeah, don't be fooled by the the blank faces. I've just come to the conclusion that resting faces are generally slightly hostile.

SPEAKER_06 13:21

Great. But um sorry, we we have hit one o'clock, um just to honour your Saturdays. Um if you have got a question, do come and find people kind of uh personally um just to say three resources if you um so Dave Claire and I mentioned the week. Uh so I I I don't like this book, Communicating for a Change, my understanding um uh again how to how to form uh a talk. Um Kyle was saying about about this one uh about the reasons for preaching by Cornelius Huntinger, not in general. Um uh Dave Dave, so that there's a classic by Tim Keller on preaching, um, but that Andy Stanley has done a book on Deep and Wide, which is about church, but actually there's a chapter about preaching, about particular preaching to the side as well as the non-save. So those are there. Dave, not a quick say about resource that's the the um evaluation sheet.

SPEAKER_07 14:21

Well, yeah, and I'm not sure that I've used this uh for a long time. Basically, it has different criteria in there with with a number next to it, which is to my mind that's the deal break or not, you know. So and I'm I'm not sure how how I would really fully own it now, but it's got things like humour, it's it's five months for humour. Basically, if if if people you can have a great server that's not funny, but humour can be really enhancing of a talk, and and actually people relax when they laugh, so humour's great, but if it wasn't funny, it wouldn't be to say you it's not a and and probably if you're if you're some people are actually funny, some people aren't. Whereas things like um personal testing and act, that's more important, or a sense of fresh revelation, to my mind that's really important, and leading people with an increased vision of God. So those were just some thoughts.

SPEAKER_06 15:17

I I it's a very flawed tool, but um at some point sometimes for for a if you have a friend, a trusted friend who will evaluate you or just either in some ways it was good, you did well, uh don't help you, but actually there's actually a uh market scheme can sometimes help you to know when you so the reason for that is the fact of the notes is you might have to photocopy a few roads and then when you get started to preach. Uh why don't you just give that to a couple of people who are watching you preach? Um so it's a Mark. I'd love to hear on those things again with those ways how I could improve. That's a good isn't it? And and feedback is your friend. Okay, it might feel awkward at times, but it will have to become better for better.

SPEAKER_03 16:00

Feedback is your friend, but you know, I would say to you have this one book I'm going to write is what not to say to someone after they've preached. Yeah, wait a few minutes legitimately. Yeah, also I I think I would never say anything to anyone after they've preached. Actually, I would wait. But if you've had some feedback, trust sound that out with someone because yeah, people sometimes say things like, You move too much, and I as a voice coach I would never say that. It's about how they've spoken to me, so you know, just be careful, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 16:32

Great. Claire, can you pray for us as we finish?

SPEAKER_03 16:34

Is that the same thing?