A Writers World

In this episode, Scott Payne takes us on his journey in to the world of writing for TV.

From a rural background to rubbing shoulders with some of the best people in the business, he tells of the early beginnings of living off bread and Jam, being beaten up and a University that couldn't possibly move him from his digs, where personality clashes had taken its toll, until he walks in with a black eye, blood on his face and a cut lip.

He talks about his first writing job and how to get an agent.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome to Backstage Ghost, the podcast where we dive into the entertainment world. Not just the red carpets and glimmer, but the panic, the tears, the questionable career choices, and the what was the thinking moments too. We're talking to real people with real dreams, surviving the highs, the lows, and the occasional identity crisis along the way. So, grab your popcorn, this is gonna be fun. Today we meet with Scott Payne. Now he is a writer for TV. You might remember some of his work. Cardus Ark, Hollyoak, Dumping Ground, Worst Witch, he loved kids entertainment. He opens up this world and actually there's a lot of nepotism that goes on. So how do you make it in this industry if you're a nobody?

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Okay, uh hello, uh my name's Scott Payne. I'm a TV writer, so a lot of my credits have been on children's uh shows, so probably the most well known would be like The Worst Witch, or uh quite recently a kind of spark um and dumping ground. And my one of my first jobs was on Holly Oaks for a couple of years, so that's the one I always tell people that you know they immediately recognize.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Well, the go-to first is it hopeful.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because people are like, Well, what have you worked on? And you know, if I say hollyoaks, especially in the UK, people know it, whether they like it or they don't like it, at least they know it. Before that, it was a lot of oh, it was this obscure radio thing that you might have heard, you know, it's just you know it was. So you done radio as well, yeah? Yeah, a little bit, yeah, yeah. Yeah. What did you do? Uh it was uh children's TV, no, some used to saying TV, it's a children's radio series on a channel called Fun Kids. Um, and we it this was just after university, so going back a while, but it was um me and some friends put together a they were only like three minutes each each episode, it was like ten episodes. Um, but we put a lot of work into them. It was called um Professor Plemm and the Lost Treasure Hunt. Um, and yeah. Uh so it was yeah, it was a big fantasy adventure series, um, which was a lot of fun. So that was one of the first things.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

You know when you wrote that?

SPEAKER_00 2:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Why did you come up with Phlem?

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Uh I thought it would be memorable. Um, and it was sort of designed to be sort of grossly funny.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

Um it was definitely, yeah. I'm sitting there thinking every time the guy speaks, he goes, Yes. You're like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

It was uh she was a she, actually, yeah. She didn't really know. Yeah, the name had no relevance, really. It was just kind of just a just a silly name. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Alright, well look, let's let's get into it. I really appreciate you coming on the backstage, Goss, um, to talk about your industry. Um, what I'd like to do is take you back to um your early days, really, you know, as a kid. Give us some context, you know, what we like as a child, education.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Mm-hmm. So I grew up in uh a little village uh in Lincolnshire called Sutton Bridge. Um, and my family were farmers, or are farmers, I should say. Like my granddad um owned a farm, and my dad worked on that, and now uh my granddad's uh retired, and dad works on other people's farms. But yeah, it was basically a very rural upbringing. Um I went to a local comprehensive school. Uh both my primary and secondary schools were sort of the average um uh state school, basically.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Um was that the Peel School?

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Yes, I forgot.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Yeah, I know the Peel School.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Yeah, it was the Peel School, which is now called the University Academy Long Sutton. I was very into um reading. Um I was a uh read a lot of children's books. Um funnily enough, like the one of the shows I worked on, The Worst Witch, was a book I happened to love when I was like six years old. Kidding. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Um Wow, what a reality check that is to go back to that.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Yeah, and I have a copy of it which is like torn to pieces and sellotaped together because I just read it uh constantly. Um so when the series came back, um, you know, I was like jumping at the bit to do it. Um yeah, and I was really I was always into like fantasy stuff, um, and I was into television. I didn't I knew I wanted to be a writer, and I kind of I did a lot of like fan fiction-y things, but I didn't really know exactly what I wanted to do at first. I was I remember when I was like s how old were I been like nine or so we um because I think my teachers knew I was into writing, um, and we had an author come in uh for like book week and he sort of had a one-on-one chat with me, um which is really nice. I can't really remember anything that he said, but I remember like just the fact that it happened. Yeah, the fact that it happened was like nice, and I remember that, and it was a real boost. But I was very quiet about it as well, like I didn't like to advertise it because it was you know it was rural Lincolnshire, everyone here is a farmer or mechanic, or you know, like it worked being into writing was not um something that kind of was typical, and so I was very self-conscious about it, so I kind of kept it to myself a bit.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

But my teacher You'd have been that weird kid, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_00 6:02

Yeah, I was the weird kid.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

The weird one that writes.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was the weird one. It's like I had like particularly at primary school, like I had a lot of friends, I always got on with people, but it was just something that I was just self-conscious about. Um, and I didn't really own it until much later in my teens. Uh but yeah, so I but I remember like I over the years I was like, would I like to go into journalism? Uh I was really into drawing, so I thought about maybe comics. Um at one point I toyed with the idea of being a stand-up, but I hate talking in front of people.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

No, wait, stop, stop, wait, wait. We go from right at the stand. What where did that come from? The stand-up comedy.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

I think I just like I enjoyed comedy a lot. Um and like I kind of like liked the idea of doing it, but not enough to actually want to do it.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Um who were your influences then for comedy?

SPEAKER_00 6:56

Oh, so I loved um, and these aren't stand-up comedians, but you know, like I loved Fotty Towers, Vicar Dibley, so I watched a lot of like the sort of like old school classic sitcoms. Yeah, um, and I know I watched a lot of like panel shows and like Have I Got News for You and all of those kind of things. Um, so oh do you know what? Looking back, like we went to see Ken Dodd uh when I was like ten. Wow and his shows are like five hours long. Yeah, they are, yeah, and it was it was great, and I I used to love um panto as well. We used to go every year at school at Christmas time, we'd go to see a pantomime in Hunstanton. Yeah. Um and we've got a lot in common, you and I. We have.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

I'll tell you about that in a minute. Yeah, go on, you carry on.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Uh but I used to, you know, because we didn't there wasn't a well, there wasn't a big theatre scene locally, so I didn't really go see plays, yeah, um, but we did see a panto once a year, and I loved it. Like the whole, you know, you just uh I loved the kind of meta comedy of it as well, like they kind of knew they were performing. Um it just it was kind of yeah, just a really good time. Um, and I think I was got a buzz in those environments, so I kind of knew I wanted to go into something performative in that way, but I also knew I wasn't personally that confident a public speaker. Um so but yeah, so what do we have in common? Well, we have in common, okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

So let's go back to Ken Dodd. Ken Dodd came to Newark, and I interviewed him for a radio show that I was doing, and he was just such a really nice guy, you know that persona you see on stage and everything else. He does a serious side to him, and we were talking about his past, um, you know, uh about growing up, his influences, blah blah blah, all the way through. And he was telling me he spent 10 years on an apprenticeship going around all of those pubs and clubs, you know, nailing down his art form. And he said, nowadays, he said, what do they do? You know, they want to be instant stars and everything. Nobody wants to work at anything, so it was like, oh my gosh. Um, but yeah, it was a real uh eye-opener for me, and he was he was lovely. Yeah, the second thing is pantomimes. Oh my god, they are my love for 25 years plus. I was doing uh Newark Community uh Panto, we had that going, and I've I had a couple of um business partners that we put out on anything, anything panto, I'm there. I used to act in them, direct them, write them, produce them, you name it, we're there. I've moved out of that that field at the moment, but we've got one last ride to do because uh one of my last uh business partner bless him, he died at the age of 40. Um, he had a dicky heart, and um I promised him that we would go and do one more panto and raise some money for the British Art Foundation. So there's a connection.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

Yeah, I'm sorry to hear my colleague, but yeah, that's so I still like still kind of a dream to be involved in a pantomime somewhere. Well, stop, stop.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

No, don't say that to me because things happen when people say things like that.

SPEAKER_03 10:17

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Yeah, uh, I was I had an um an interview the other day with a young lady who wanted to do some film production work. Um she was neurodivergent and she wanted to be involved in a neurodivergent uh project. I'm actually working on one at the moment with three other people. We brought her in. We brought her in. So are you saying you'd like to go out on in a pantomime? What is it you want to do?

SPEAKER_00 10:45

I don't know. Maybe maybe a minor role, I don't know. Um it could be fun, but it also depends on where it is because I don't know how comedian it is as well. Like now the real world adult life comes in and it's like, oh, I'm not available on this day. Um, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

That's easier to throw it.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Maybe in retirement I could do it or something.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

Well, it used to take me a year. A whole year, you know, to sort everything out. Because we used to write our own scripts to cut down on royalties and you know all that type of stuff. Where did it um so when you got yourself into uni, you know, you decided that you wanted to go. What was the course like? Where did you study?

SPEAKER_00 11:23

Okay, yeah, so I should probably back go back a couple of paces because uh in yeah, I think about the time I was 16, I kind of had settled on the idea that I'd like to go into TV writing. Um and uh I'd kind of knew I I was in a way I was kind of like um I want to say naive or reckless or like I just put all of my eggs into that basket, which is a very ambitious basket. Um and but you're like 16 and you just you just want to give it a go and you don't really think about it. Um so I went to college uh and I did A levels in English, media and film, again, all very um you know, relevant. Um and I looked around um universities and the one I really wanted to go to, which is the one I ended up in, was um Bournemouth University, um which is about four hours drive from where I lived. Um but it was at a time it was like it might still be, I can't, I'm not entirely sure, like it was like the top credited media school in the country, um, and it was sold as having like lots of working writers, like teaching the course, and it was a very practical course. Yeah, so that was what I wanted to do, and I got uh just scraped to the A levels I needed to get into it. Uh and it's funny really because coming from a kind of sort of ordinary background, like you know, I was there with my like I think 1A and 2bs, and I was like, yes, I did it. And you know, I'd meet people from other uh walks of life, and they were like they're like three A stars, you know, everything's just like okay, I feel very lucky to have got in here. But there was a while when I was that I couldn't imagine living anywhere else, because obviously I hadn't, and you know, you're finally living without your parents, and actually my first few months of uni were not great. Like I had housemates that I didn't get along with. Yeah, we just didn't we were very different, like they were kind of there for a laugh, um, and I was and they they had quite wealthy backgrounds, yeah, um, and didn't really take it seriously. They were really into clubbing and going out, and like every night it was like another night out, and I was up for that a little bit, but not that much. Um, and I kind of I was very into it and quiet, and I just kind of wanted to sort of um my own space really. Um, and we just had a bit of a personality clash, which then sort of escalated over weeks and to becoming like proper animosity. Um uh and there was a and I used to avoid going home, like I used to go into uni the first week. I was like, oh, this is not for me, I need to go home because the first week is all like um like freshman stuff, and it's all just yeah, yeah, the course hasn't started yet, you haven't you haven't met anyone yet, and and I was like, oh this is horrible. I'm going home. Um, and then I I started my course and I met people who were much more on my wavelength, um, and in hindsight, mostly all neurodivergent like I was, even though I didn't know that at the time, but we'll come to that later. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. So I I had a so I should probably just say I have ADHD, I was late diagnosed only a couple of years ago, so my entire life story is with this kind of unawareness that I was neurodivergent. Um, I felt like I'd found my people. So I used to spend all my time at uni and I would avoid going home as much as possible. Um and I used to get home at like 11 at night because I know they'd be in a nightclub and they wouldn't be there, you know, because I just it was just awkward. And I used to just hang around the campus and hope that someone I know was there and bump into them. Yeah, it was really, it was really miserable. Uh and it kind of all culminated. Uh, and I remember it so well. It was Children in Need. Uh, and because I used to sort of watch all the Comic Cons and Children in Need, so that's how it sticks in my head. Um, they'd come home and they were having I can't I can't remember what triggered it, but there was they were drunk and just having a go at me, and I just walked out of the house at like one in the morning. Um, and I walked down the road and I got to and I rung a friend and I was like, I need to come stay somewhere, I can't be here anymore. And then there was suddenly this like assault happening in front of me. So I got to this pub, um, and there was this guy who was like high or something, and he was assaulting this woman. Um he was kind of like kicking her, basically, and there was this crowd kind of not doing anything. Um and I kind of like just on instinct sort of tried to break it up, and I was just kind of um I don't know what I thought I was gonna do. I kind I think I naively thought if I just said oi, he might just go. Um but he sort of then started turning around and then attacking me. Um so he punched me a few times and I was just kind of stunned, I didn't really react. Um, and I literally remember thinking, you know, it's it's it's funny, like in in my brain, it's like slow motion as his fist is coming towards my face. I'm thinking, oh god, it's the last thing I need. Here we go. It was just like, no, well, yeah, typical, top it off, what a day, you know. Um and yeah, so but I think because I didn't really fight him back because I was just sort of stunned and didn't really do anything, that he kind of gave up and he walked off, and then an ambulance came and I was patched up and I bit through my mouth, and I still got a scar from that. Um but then I kind of went to my friend and he's like, Where you been? I was like, Oh, long story. Um it was a very surreal, surreal night, like um but in a way, like that didn't faze me as much because it was kind of like quite straightforward. Like there was an obvious bad guy, there was an obvious victim, and there was an obvious incident. The last four months of bitter, like simmering tension in the household, that was where it was like oh like it just it just felt really awkward and complicated, and like who was in the wrong? Did I say something wrong that offended them? Blah blah blah blah. Um, and that was you know that was still like a more pressing issue in my head. So I tried to like I think actually looking back on it, this is probably what set them off because I tried to leave um a few weeks earlier. Um so I'd kind of when I said I I think I need to move out, I think that had clearly, you know, ruffled their feathers because it had sort of made it explicit that I didn't like them. Um, so therefore they had then had permission to not like me. But the university was like, Oh, there's not really a lot of spaces available at the minute, uh blah blah blah blah, you know, kind of a bit useless. Went back in the next day with a black eye and you know a bleeding face, and I was like, I'd like to move house, please. And they were like, Oh, yeah, sure, no problem.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Yeah, I bet you know what I'll bet their old arsehole went, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Yeah.

unknown 19:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

I came in yesterday and I did mention to you, didn't I?

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Yeah. Yeah. I got really involved with the extracurricular activities, so that was a really key thing for me.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Um so the course itself, I should say, was like um, it was half academic. At that time, I wasn't that interested in that stuff, and it was half practical. So first year it was like you would write a short film, which was about six minutes, um, and it would be a silent film, um, in the sense that no one could talk. So they were trying to teach you um that you know film is a visual medium, um, and to be less reliant on dialogue. Then we had like a half-hour script, and then we had at the end of that a 40-minute script. But then the second year it was like you would do a TV project. Um, so you'd work as a group, come up with a series Bible, um, come up with a script. Um I think there was another script as well. Oh yeah, there was. Um, I wrote that one in a night. Long story. Um and then there was then the final year was your dissertation, and um you could either do a feature film or a TV pilot and a Bible, and I did a TV uh pilot. So that was the course, and then outside of that, I just got really involved with loads of like um creative um clubs. So I set up a writer society uh where we'd sort of have uh get-togethers and share work and give feedback. One of my good friends had set up like a perfor alternative performing arts group, so there was the mainstream one which did your usual big shows, like I think they did Rent and um well-known stuff, um West Side Story, that kind of thing. Um, but Simon did the kind of like alternative comedy um stuff, so he put on like sketch shows, and a lot of it was quite dark humour. Um, and I would contribute to that, and that was really fun. And we did a uh parody pantomime, uh, like a it was like a dark pantomime, and I wrote a sketch for that. And yeah, and then the other thing was we had a student TV station, um, and it was called Nerve TV, and it was analogue at that time, like you could literally t find it on the Bournemouth like uh TV remote control, you know, scroll through videos. Um, and there were like a couple of things on it, not very much. Um, but we made like a comedy panel show because again, I was Was obsessed with stuff like Mock Week and that kind of thing at the time.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

Um, and we did like four episodes of that, and that was a lot of work.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

And people don't actually understand that though, do they? With the amount of work that actually goes into, you know, like these panel shows and everything else.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

It's a lot because you've got to find all the panelists, you've got to script the thing, you've got to find all your crew, and then you've got to edit it, and it's and we sort of recorded it in front of an audience as well, so we had to advertise to get an audience in. Yeah, it was um absolutely crazy looking back at it. Like, I wouldn't even bother now. I think when you're like eight, yeah. Yeah, I think when you're 18, you just like, oh, just let's just do it, let's just do it. Right, and there it is, yep. Um, and we just did a lot, and I yeah, and we even did like a comedy sketch show for radio as well. But it was really high quality. Like we had we worked with people from the radio course who uh Yeah, yeah, I love radio, yeah. Yeah, one of them who um that children's show I was mentioning earlier for radio, that it was my friend Mog who I um produced it at. Um, so so the really valuable thing about uni was like meeting all of these people across different courses, keeping these contacts for life. Some of them still my best friends now, um, and who I've worked with professionally since as well. Um, so it was incredibly important to me for that reason. The course itself was fine. I wouldn't say no one's ever asked me what did you get in your degree? Did you get a first? Well, I did get a first, but like no, it isn't it's been of no use to me in that sense.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Let me just stop you there because that is really interesting, isn't it? You know, yeah with all the grades and everything else, yeah. You just said something there that's actually important, it didn't make any difference.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

No, it's on paper anyway. Like I think it makes an indirect difference. Like um it and I don't think it's essential at all. Like I've met with people, I've worked with people who didn't go to uni. Um, it's it's not something you have to do to get into this industry. I think there are merits to it, like making it's a good way of making contact, especially if like me, you were from an area where no one was in television. Like there, like there's a lot of nepotism in this industry. There's a lot of people who, you know, oh my uncle was a producer, one blah blah blah. Right, yeah, you know, and or if you go to like a you know, a top university like an Oxford or a Cambridge and you have those links there. Like if you already have access in that way, then that's useful, but I didn't, you know, I came from a rural background, no one I knew was in media, so it was a logical place to go to like you know, a first step, and from there, like they would bring in like guest speakers and stuff, you know, and yeah, it was a chance for me to like actually start building those relationships, and there are other ways to do that as well, like you know, university is not the only way of doing that. Um, but for me as an 18-year-old, um, that was useful. Um, and then all of the experience of just making things and building up a show reel, and mind you, some of that stuff I would never show to anyone, but it was also just like you know, cutting your teeth and like training and learning and you know, working what figuring out what works with loads of people who were like-minded and you know really passionate, and that was you know really valuable. But yeah, when I'm sitting in meetings with producers, they might ask where I went to uni and they might ask what it was like, but no one said, Well, what was your grade? Did you get this? Oh, I'm afraid you know this other applicant has you know got 70%, you know, whatever, you know, like it doesn't happen like that at all. Yeah, it wasn't relevant really in a direct sense, but I think it the environment was relevant, um, and the connections was relevant. Um and also if you're 18, yeah, and if you're 18 and you want to just you know make friends and have a social life, you know, it's valuable for that as well. Yeah, you know, yeah, um, but not at all essential, and I've met people who are very successful who uni wasn't for them. I'd finished a degree in Bournemouth. I really loved Bournemouth and I didn't want to go home straight away. I I wanted to give it another year, so I decided to get a job locally. Um, and by the time my degree was over, I was skint. I was just so I was going into CEX and selling off DVD so I could afford to eat. I worked out there was a lidlow nearby, and at the time there was like a jar of jam you could get for 17 pence and like a loaf of bread for 50p, and I would live off that four weeks. You know, they just do not realise, you know, what it's like. Yeah, yeah. So I was just kind of and I got really fed up with that. And I was uh there was a the co-op were opening two new shops in town, so they were doing a mass recruitment day. Um, so I walked to the interview place, it was about a 40-minute walk, and it was pissing it down with rain. And I got there, I was so grumpy that like all of my usual social anxiety just vanished because I was just like like I was just so angry with the weather and the world, and I was just like I smashed the interview because I just suddenly had all this confidence that wasn't really typical of me. Um uh yeah, then got I worked there for like a year.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

How important was it for you though, every day, like you say? It was a bit of a drudge, but how important was that writing to do every day?

SPEAKER_00 28:06

Very, I'd say. Um, and I'm not someone who necessarily advocates that you have to write literally every day, but I think it's like you have to just keep constantly working at stuff and like having ideas, and you know, during that time was when we started doing the children's radio series, so we were putting stuff out, and that came about because you know I made friends with um my friend Mog, who was on a radio course, and he was like, Oh, I've been chatting to this um radio station, they're up for doing a children's series. Um, do you want to uh send me some ideas? You know, things just flowed from there. So we were just kind of, you know, we were putting stuff out. Oh, we did a play, we did a sort of comedy play. Um, so my friend Simon, who'd set up the alternative arts group, he um he's a comedian, actor, um, and he wanted to do like a one-man show. Um so we co-wrote it with him performing it, and he performed like the entire thing, did all the characters, um, and that went to like we did that at the Edinburgh Fringe and Campbell Fringe, and he toured it, and so we were constantly like doing stuff, um not really knowing where it would go, but it was just you know, you're just doing stuff for the sake of doing it, I suppose. Um learning. Um I think if like if anyone's listening to this who's a writer, it's just automatic that you do it anyway. Like you uh have the kind of brain that's constantly thinking of ideas, and then you're you know, you're actually pursuing them. Um things come up in life, which means oh, you don't literally have the time to write them down, you literally don't have the time to work on them. But I think writers' brains are just hardwired always to be like, oh, that could be a story, that could be something. Right, right. So I think you like you would do it like automatically in a way. So it wasn't like I did a year of work and was just kind of like had part everything else, like you know, the normal jobs were a means to an end, you know, they were like this will pay the rent while I do the other things. Uh but then yeah, so after a year at Bournemouth, um, doing that. Do you know what this is this is actually a good lesson? How naive I was like, um, we'd got a project together. So the the radio show we did, we did like a um TV version of it, like we wrote it as a pilot. Um sent it off to a production company, and they were like, Yeah, this is great, we'd like to work on this with you. And you're like 20 21, really naive, and you're like, Oh great, I'm finally in television. Um, so I was like, it's all sorted, and I was kind of I decided to go home. Um, so I moved back in with my parents in Lincolnshire, left Bournemouth, and then learned the hard way that actually, no, that's not how television works. Like, um, you know, there was nobody really coming from that, and I hadn't really broken in. Uh, you know, they were not the most reputable company in hindsight. Like, um, you know, we learned that like a few months later. Um, like they had like a website, and they were like, you know, they had made some stuff, but they were not someone that channels were actively like wanting to work with.

SPEAKER_03 31:58

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

Um so at that point we were like, oh, okay, right, bit naive there. Uh I can't remember. So I think so. Around about this time, uh I'll just circling back to so when I mentioned first year of uni, there was like a final project which was like 40-minute script. Yeah. Um that one, based on the advice of a lecturer, I entered into um a competition. It's called the Peter Sir Peter Yustinov Award. I believe it still exists.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

Um but you mean the actor Peter Yustinov?

SPEAKER_00 32:41

Uh yeah, so it's bas it's named after him.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

Um the award is. Um, that's in your so it's named after him.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

Um, and it would if you won it, um, you get to go to the International Emmys and pick it up there. Um and it was it's an award aimed at people who live outside of America. So and you have to be under 30 to enter. So I entered it and I was shortlisted. I made the top 10. I didn't win it, but that scripts uh got me a meeting with a producer and gave me a tour of the BBC, um, which was really exciting at the time because it was like, oh my god, I get to go to the BBC, and this was the actual the circle building in you know West London, you know, the thing that you'd see on comic relief, you know, this was like the proper BBC, and I was like, oh my god, it's amazing. You know, that was like Disney World for me. Um, and then yeah, but that script I kind of held on to, and then uh by the time so after leaving Bournemouth, this was about 2012, 2013, I was about what, 22 or so. Um I entered it again into another competition. So this was um BBC Writers Room. We're doing a kind of regional um outreach, and uh I it wasn't a kind of competition where you have one winner, it was like there was a group of us, um, and we went to BBC Birmingham um to meet some of the writers on Doctors, um, and they did a little talk about um that, and because I'd placed in that competition, um that was the one that my now agent read. He read that script, right? Um and I should probably go back a pace to sort of explain how he became aware of me as well. Um, so this again is where it going to uni was useful because one of my friends on the course became his assistant. Um so she recommended me to him, um, and I sent in my final year script um for him to read. Um, and he liked it, sort of said, you know, not quite for him, but you know, shows potential, we'll keep an eye on you as a writer, keep in touch, that kind of thing. So it wasn't like, well, you know, I had an assist friend who was his assistant, and you know, it was that easy. Like, you know, it was just a kind of opening a door. Um, but when this script placed in the competition, he has to read it, um, and then got back to me and said, if I turned it into a children's TV pilot, um, he would represent me as a writer. Um and he was like, you know, obviously look around, look, see if there are any other agents that you'd be interested in working with. You know, you don't have to go with me. But I was at 22 and I was like, and someone's offering for your major, and I was like, yep, no, all good. Yeah, something to give me away. Thank you. Yeah. Um, but he said something which was really uh useful first time I met him. Uh so we went to London, little cafe, to have like an initial meeting, and he sort of said, Usually once you sign a writer, it takes about a year or two years to then get going. Like it takes like to get your first paid writing job. Yes. Like to because uh in that meantime, it's a lot about building connections, sending stuff out, waiting to hear back. Um, so it can it's not instant that you get an agent and then you get work. Your agent is there to kind of promote you and to introduce you to uh the industry and sign all the, you know, negotiate all the contracts and stuff, but they can't automatically get you a job. Um, you know, so it's a kind of partnership, um, in a way, like it's up to me to you know be creating stuff that he can send out um to be making a good impression on people when I'm meeting them, um, to be networking, and then he's also doing that as well, so it's a team effort, really. Um yeah, some of where I got to. So, yeah, so at that point I was living at home. I was writing original scripts and writing pictures and trying to sort of get into the industry. Um, but I was broke, um, had no like actual income. Um, I was searching for jobs constantly and just having no luck.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

Um just on a miserable note, let's just do it, yeah, make it worse for you. So when you were writing your material and everything else, where did you find out where the next job could possibly uh be coming from? You know, were there certain sites or what?

SPEAKER_00 38:13

So at the time there was a website called Ideas Tap, um, and this advertised like creative arts jobs, so I was applying for a lot of them. I was trying to apply for like anything in the media and also just anything. So I was applying for like Waterstones and I had an interview and they rejected me. So annoyed. But really, the agents do a lot of that, so they're the ones like going to the you know, the continuing dramas and putting you forward. Um, so I wasn't actively looking at like what shows are about, what could I get on to? You can do a bit of that, I suppose. There's no reason you couldn't look up the shows, look at the producers, send an email. Um, didn't really occur to me at the time. I was just kind of um writing stuff basically. That was my sort of objective is to create material that was good enough to sort of get me at work, and and then sometimes it's just about luck and timing as well. It depends like what's going and what's about. So, but that year of like unemployment was kind of useful because I just ended up watching a lot of television, um, and so it was a real good training in that sense because you you know, university had been so busy that I'd actually not watched a great deal. Um, so I sort of binged so much stuff, so I got a real good um sense of what was out there. So I had a couple of scripts going out, and then sort of the latter end of 2013, I did finally get a job, and it was as an in-store baker at the co-op. So I ended up doing exactly the same thing in a different shop, and I did that for three months, and then I got in an interview day. So the thing is, like there were two projects I interviewed for on the same day, and they were both with a company called Lime Pictures, who are based in Liverpool, um, and they make Holly Oaks. So one of the interviews I had was on Holly Oaks, and then the other one was a children's show called Rockets Island, and so I had Nick, my agent, booked both of them on the same day. So I travelled up to Liverpool, and the children's show was um, I'd they'd read my children's script that I'd originally written to get with an agent, and then Holly Oaks had written another script that I'd written in the last year, which was a YA uh sort of young adult um fantasy drama about vampires of all things. Um and yeah, I interviewed for both on the same day and got them both. So like yeah, so it was a real um baptism of fire that period because I was kind of like suddenly, finally actually in it. Um, and at that point I could leave the co-op job for now. I was thinking maybe I'll go back again. I was starting on a soap and a children's show at the same time, um, and which was a lot, but I think it was really useful for me as well because they're so they're quite different, so it meant I didn't get sort of used to a particular way of working.

SPEAKER_01 41:46

So let's have a look at the some of the work that you've you've actually worked on. What was your first one?

SPEAKER_00 41:51

Technically, my first one was Rocket's Island. Uh, this was a sort of kind of fantasy, but not so it was about a boy called Rocket who lived on an island, and he had his parents fostered children, um, and they were all coming from like troubled backgrounds. Um, but Rocket has a vivid imagination, so if something weird happened in the island, if something goes missing, in his his head it was because a dragon had taken it, or you know, there was some mystery to solve. Um, so each episode had a kind of like fantasy element to it, which would always be revealed to be a real explanation. And in my episode, um, a girl thinks she's discovered the that she has magic um because she gets struck by lightning, whereas actually she just fell over and there was a storm. Um, but uh, you know, so she needs to convince herself she's been struck by lightning and now has magic powers. Um and meanwhile, there's a boy who has just learned that his mum has died, and he takes part in a kind of magician's act that she puts on stage. And when she it's the sort of classic disappearing act, like she puts him in a box, opens the door, he's gone, she closes the door, goes to open it again, and he's still gone. And in her head, it's because oh no, I've my magic's too strong, I've made him disappear forever, and how do we fix it? Whereas actually it's he's run away because he's just had this terrible news. Um, you know, so it would have this like heart to it, and it would all sort of come back together at the end. Um, and and it you'd always leave it like slightly open as well, like maybe it was really magic, but you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a really, really lovely show, actually, and it was by a writer called Nick Lever, who was a fantastic mentor, and a producer called Lucy, who was excellent. as well and was they were both really supportive and that was a fantastic that was a really great first experience actually and the first draft went really smoothly um I needed a bit of help with the structure in the sort of like outlining stage but once it was I knew what I was doing um like I had my scene breakdown the first draft I didn't really end up changing that much after that like it sort of stayed as it was pretty much yeah yeah yeah so that was that was a really great experience um and I kind of figured out at that point that you know that genre suited me and I was well suited to it. Hollyoaks was a much different experience like it took me a while to really understand the voice of that show. And I didn't I I hadn't watched it before like I you know I had about a month when Nick had told me that you know I was going for it and so I before the interview so I ended up like binging a month's worth on like um channel four online and then I kind of like I was really lucky in one way because my script they really liked enough that they sort of gave me so my sample script they liked enough that they gave me an episode and I didn't have to do a trial script. I kind of wish that I had because I was it felt like I was really thrown in a deep end and I did not know what I was doing basically. Right right um and I didn't love the first three episodes I put out uh in uh I just hadn't quite got the voice of the show I just some of it was really flat I just I couldn't work out what they were looking for in a way like I couldn't work out you know yeah it's a good question. I just yeah it just didn't really it just wasn't really fitting well um and I think they knew that as well.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

Did they just give you a brief to write to then or what so you would kind of get at the time it was a very detailed scene breakdown.

SPEAKER_00 46:15

Well not actually no a story outline I should say so every month they would publish a story document um and it would have uh that week's so there are five episodes a week each week um you would be assigned like one writer per episode or maybe someone would have two episodes if they were doing a double.

SPEAKER_03 46:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

And in that document it would say episode three or whatever it was these are the story beats and it was quite precise in what they wanted. So each episode had to have 27 scenes um and you know that it would have on the top page the locations you were allowed to use the characters that were in this episode and it would like do it like there used to be like four story strands. So you would have your A story which is your main one your B story your C story each one less and less so your B story would be about nine scenes your C story like five scenes and then a D story which was like one or two scenes and they were usually like a comedy beat or they would kind of bring in seed something that would pay off later so they might you know like just plant an idea that in the next episode becomes something that's an A story. Yeah yeah yeah um so and they were very well plotted like they used to have like a story team whose job it was five days a week to sit down and work out what happens in each episode. Oh my gosh. So you had a whole team yeah it was a it was a factory like it was a mission like the the actual like production company was based in what used to be an old school um it was actually where they filmed Grange Hill because it was the same company. Right. So like if you had a massive team there you like you had a story team you had your props teams you know um everywhere was a set like you could be walking down a random corridor and then told to stop because they were shooting a scene there. You know they would use anything and everything. So they had they had a um yeah they had uh script editing departments and research departments because they would be working on often quite serious storylines as well like stuff about domestic abuse and all of these kind of things and they would have like proper research teams who would go out and speak to charities and campaigners and you know get proper insights because because it was such a beast and it was just constantly churning out episodes five days a week you know as a writer you don't have time to do that research you need someone to do it for you and then they would send you you know this document they've compiled with all of their notes and stuff so that you've got that to refer to so it was just a moving machine constantly and then but eventually I did get into the swing of it and some of my episodes were quite good and quite popular and I was being offered an episode every month which was great. But the thing is like you get given a week to do your first draft except it's not because at the same time you're doing a second draft of a different episode or a third draft of a different episode. So in reality you ended up with like two days to write a script you know and it was a lot of work and there was a lot of all nighters and especially because I was undiagnosed ADHD like there were just sometimes I would struggle to get going and things would get left till quite late and then you know I was just constantly like rushing them last minute I'd sometimes my brain tends to work well that way so it often that didn't really affect the quality but it affected my own health wellbeing mental health would be through the room theory me yeah but that yeah so I and so while I was doing that so I was on Hollyogs for about two years and then I was also like trying to get other jobs so I ended up on a Disney show and you know then I sort of got going with my children's TV career um and I was also pitching and like trying to sell original ideas as well. Can I just ask you about the pitching side of things who are you pitching to you pitching to the production company a producer a particular producer or what who usually a production company so I would have you know my agent would book in meetings so it would be with uh I don't know plug one out of random um like QDOS for example um and like you got a meeting with this guy from QDOS on this day or this woman from Mammoth Pictures on this day and you would just kind of have like ideas for TV shows in your head um and they would have usually read a sample script and decided they liked it um and wanted to meet with you um and then you would have a general chat kind of like what we're doing now yeah um and they would just kind of ask you like do you have any ideas um and then you would pitch it so I think sometimes if you're not in the industry or you're just starting out you think pitching is like you have a big slideshow and you know you do a big presentation um and I think some of that does go on in the States but here it's very informal so it is literally just having a conversation and you'd be like I've got this idea it's about this and this happens you know you could even be like I haven't quite got this fully yet but it's something like this and they'd either respond well to it or not and if they do then they ask you to kind of send it in so you would write like a page or two pages um sort of outlining your idea and then if they like it then they option it so they pay you a small amount of money just so we can keep working on it together. Okay. And then they would send it off to a channel and go from there basically right um how does it work with the NDAs then because I mean from a writer's point of view it must be an awful situation to be in to go and pitch an idea and somebody say no no six months later down the line your idea is out there yeah it's funny you kind of have to take in faith that idea idea stealing doesn't really happen there's also just a general zeitgeist like you can pitch something that and someone else has just had a very similar idea at the same time because it does happen because we're all watching the same news and getting the same inspiration and being or you'll sit there and think oh no one's done a thing about a circus for a while um that's very original and I'll pitch that and then they'll be like oh we've had another circus idea come in because someone else has had exactly the same thought you know so it it happens that things just sort of echo each other you know by accident and it's not necessary that something's been stolen. So you don't worry too much about it. What can be frustrating is when you've pitched something and they'll say like oh we've got something similar and sometimes you suspect that's just their way of saying oh we didn't really like it because the thing that might be similar might be something that's just not a big deal like oh no well they're both they both have cars in them we've got something similar in development you know you know yeah or it might be something that's really very similar or sometimes it might just be like oh we can't really do that because we also did this other show which had a crime in it um you know and it's you know sometimes like and I get it as well because what a producer's thinking is they have to pitch something higher up to a channel and it has to stand out or it has to you know appeal to them and they're also risk assessing your ideas and going yeah but what will so and so from BBC think.

SPEAKER_01 54:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:50

So at least it's really yeah so it's as much about the market as it is the ideas itself like just because your scripts good or people like it doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna get made. And I should also say as well like for any writers listening like your first script probably won't get made um a lot of like screenwriting books really like talk about how to sell your script and really it's about creating a good sample that gives away your voice shows someone what you can do and then builds relationships and then you meet producers and you go on from there and you network and then you get your first gig and then you build up a portfolio and credits and you know that kind of thing like that's how it works. It's not so much like you've come up with this brilliant idea. I've bet so many writers you've got this brilliant idea that they're obsessed with and for them it's all about their idea and you know fair enough but that's not how the industry particularly works or thinks it's not necessarily about a single idea it's about you and what you can bring um and what's unique about you. So they're looking for people who can come up with 10 20 ideas you know um and there might be something about you that's specific and like interesting like you know with some of the top writers like a Sally Rainwright or uh you know Russell T. Davies you kind of know what their voice is you know what that show's gonna be like and that's what it's about it's selling yourself rather than your specific six part drama about blah blah blah. But that being said like I do have ideas that I've you know I've always had and I want to do and you just keep going at them but you just have to be more than that as well.

SPEAKER_01 56:52

Yeah where did we get to you there's a fair bit to it isn't there really you know like you said I mean a writer's uh a writer's existence actually in my mind seems to be a poor existence unless you you you know you hit the big time.

SPEAKER_00 57:08

Yeah it's very there's a phrase I always like um it's not the career you take to um reassure your mother like it's like it's like it's a very uncertain industry. There's another one my friend Sophie says which I love which is TV isn't life and death but it will kill you. Yeah it's um it's just a lot of uncertainty it's freelancing basically anyone who's a plumber self-employed you know window cleaner it's a similar thing like you have to be constantly getting your own work constantly and you're never quite sure what you're gonna be doing two months down the line three months down the line um unless you're on something like a Holy Age which is why they're so useful is because you know so long as you know you're not fired at any point like you know you've that's consistent living um but you're never entirely sure what's gonna happen. In an ideal world you build up some savings and you put those away for a rainy day and so you know hopefully over a year you'll earn enough and you'll spread it out a bit um so you'll you'd kind of have a kind of budget and you know you can manage manage it fine like that. And sometimes like you know in my early career I was lucky to be doing well enough that I you know was earning quite a lot but it doesn't last forever. No so it has especially during COVID so you know during lockdowns and stuff I kind of had to like live off my savings. So you know it was there for a rainy day and then the rain happened and then so you know things can go wrong but it was but yeah that the the general idea is that you have to just kind of manage um or you know if you're just starting out and you haven't been able to build up a kind of savings then it's like having some other work or regular income as well like I I do think it's easier to write when you're not worried about money. Even if you're not earning a lot so long as you know you've got enough to live on it's like otherwise you're just sort of paralyzed with anxiety or at least I found I've been like you're just kind of like you you want to be writing a script but at the same time you're like but should I be on undeed.com applying for blah blah blah you know it's just um it's a lot easier to get on with things when you um don't have to worry about that stuff you know you can componentalize um but yeah it's a very uncertain industry and even more so nowadays I think well I can imagine how easy is it to um can you like solicit scripts without an agent it's possible but it's very hard um like I some of the writers I knew on Hollyoaks did not have agents but they were also very very good at negotiations and contracts and they had a kind of business mind. I don't know if they'd come from other careers like they kind of had that ability to do it all um but it's not easy I'd say most writers you need an agent and but they're not that easy to get are they? No it's it's also harder to get an agent. So there's a weird there are some agencies that will accept unsolicited scripts so you would just send in your script and go from there. Sometimes they ask for what they call a um letter of commendation or recommendation something like that. Um where you would basically you'd have to do something already to get someone from the industry to just write a letter saying that you're a decent person with basically all good to work with you know um it's kind of like a reference I suppose um uh so a friend of mine had submitted uh a script and this is again one of those random things that you can't necessarily repeat like so he was just online one day a producer had put out you know I haven't read any great animation scripts lately has anyone got any assembled some he sent them in sent his ideas to him uh this producer really liked them invited them in to spend two days on a writer's room um for a children's animation series um and that was it it didn't go anywhere from there um but it was enough to make that contact and to get a letter from this producer that then he could send to an agent and then from that that gets you through the door to then they read your script and then get an agent. So it's finding a way to meet someone from the industry who can vouch for you is the way to get around that and it's not easy but it is doable but it's just not obvious how you would do it I suppose especially if you were coming from nowhere. Like it might be um that you could put on a play and invite people to see it. Often that's quite a good way of doing it. So you could invite an agent to see your play um and they might really like it and then ask to read your stuff or go from there. Or you could do a short film or you know there are ways to kind of get an agent's attention that are different than just sending in your script blind in an email but it it does take a little bit of like thinking and navigation and usually the best way of doing it is to just be writing stuff and making stuff if you can make even if you enter into competitions um you know if you place where on a competition you might hear back from one of the judges um and you know you might make a connection there and they could write a letter you know anything like that. Yeah yeah yeah but it is it is harder than it used to be um unfortunately uh I think it's um it is quite tricky. I know I want to talk to you about very quickly because we're we're coming to the end of the end of the show um is you know you worked um on a neurodivergent project didn't you let's just talk about that how did you get it and you know what was it like uh yeah so about three years ago I was diagnosed with ADHD so all of this time all of my everything I've spoken about happened with me having no clue that I was neurodivergent but also really struggling being like um and I I was like one of those that sort of looked like I was functioning on the outside but just like an absolute mess behind the scenes and like had you know several like nervous breakdowns and just like just exhausted myself constantly and getting really depressed. So eventually it kind of clocked that there was something up I don't really know what triggered it but I I asked for an ADHD diagnosis and and then around about the same time I was starting to explore that um I'd been kind of talking to this production company who had this show in the works called A Kind of Spark. So it's based on a book um by L McNichol uh which is about um a teenage girl with ADH no autism um but one of the other characters uh that joins the show in series two um she is uh autistic and has ADHD um and I should correct myself as well and say it's not with autism she is an autistic teenager which is a you know a I know a big thing in the community it's like you know you you don't have something you are that thing um yeah slightly different of ADHD just because of the way it's phrased um but essentially so yeah we're sort of kind of talking at the same time I mentioned I was just going like through this diagnosis process they were bringing in a character uh who was Autistic and had ADHD in series two, but and they had a writing team that uh had a lot of representation of autistic writers, but didn't really have anyone with ADHD experience. I think there was one producer who did have it. Um, so they wanted to bring in someone to kind of represent that side of things. Um, and uh, it was just a lovely, lovely time. Um, and the head writer I knew from my Hollyoaks days, um, Anna McCleary, um, you know, she was done the head writer on the TV project, and Elle was also in the room as well, um, kind of steering it and making sure that she had, you know, it was still going her way. Yeah, no, it was a really lovely team. I think we had a few days, I think it was two days in the writer's room, like kind of talking about what series two would be like and what a story was, and I was just kind of drawing on my own experiences, and everyone was kind of chipping in like their own kind of experiences as well. Um I mean it makes it sound like it was all my idea, wasn't it? Like I was like, you know, part of a team, and um, you know, it was very much driven by Elle and Anna, who had this like really well um thought-out story um that they were working towards.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:22

And that was based on the book, was it?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:24

Yeah, so the first series was kind of a like-for-like for the first book. Second series, a lot of it was original, um, but there was a character in the book who's mentioned who doesn't really get mentioned in a series. So the second series takes the character of Bonnie and like makes her the driving like force of the story for series two. So essentially it's taking an element from the book and then fleshing that out into a story for the second series. So a lot of it was quite new stuff, but like it was just digging a bit deeper into some of the elements that are in the first book as well. Um, so like the the big thing was like the main character Addy and her family are a really they're a really supportive um family, like she has parents who totally get it, and they're really like, you know, accommodating and you know, they really try and make it an inclusive household. Whereas Bonnie was from a background where her parents were um a lot more, shall I say, they were well-meaning, but they were kind of like, oh, remember, you mustn't, you know, tap your feet, you know, they were trying to like get her to behave like a neurotypical person, like they were really much more suppressing it. So she was um a character who had a lot more trouble with it and uh who and therefore could behave in quite like problematic ways, and so she was kind of like uh a sympathetic antagonist for the series, and it was kind of like taking her, you know, healing that family uh was kind of the story of like the second series. Um but that was just you know a really lovely experience. Like the episode was written quite quickly, and again, didn't really have a great deal of changes, like it was um you know, it was and also what was very nice, they kind of asked me to look over some of the scene breakdowns and sort of say, is there any elements here that we could um put some more ADHD stuff in? So I would literally just be like, Oh, in this scene, she could be tapping a foot or whatever, like she might just be, you know, or she, you know, someone interrupts her here and she might just find that really frustrating. Um but I would always be like, but defer to L because I I'm not autistic, um so I don't I can't say for sure how someone with both might respond.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:10

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:11

So I would like I would offer this is the ADHD perspective, um, and then they would you know that would then sort of tie into the um autistic perspective and it would kind of um find a I don't want to say middle ground, but it would find like a natural um way that Bonnie, the character, would react.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:33

Um yeah. It's quite important though, isn't it, to get that right? Because I mean um, you know, especially with that subject matter, people pick up on that pretty down.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:42

Yeah, no, it got a massive response, and it's had such a lovely feedback from the audience who really feel represented by it. Um and there was one scene that we had to kind of really fight keep in, and I know Els posted about this recently. There's a bit where there are there's like a speech about how neurodivergent people shouldn't have to apologise for being the way they are, and shouldn't be apologizing at all. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um there was yeah, I I'm trying to remember what the plot was. I think it was so there'd been a fallout between some characters, and there was a best friend who was kind of trying to get them to make up to each other, like one of them was essentially a neurotypical bully, and one of them was Addie, the main character, and the other character was like, Why can't you both just say sorry to each other and get along? Um, and Addy was like, Well, because I've literally done nothing wrong, like I don't have to apologize for being the way I am, like, you know, she she was the one who took against me, you know, for and she was the in the wrong. Um, so it was this like moment of just saying, you know, I shouldn't have to apologize for being the way I am. And there are some notes on it, and I like it was kind of they were kind of fair enough because it was kind of within the context of that one episode, like that other character wasn't really in it, it wasn't really relevant to the story of that episode. It was, you know, it was kind of came out of nowhere, and you know, so it felt a bit shoehorned in in a strict plot narrative sense, like you could lose that moment and the story would work and right, you still have flow, yeah. So I think they were coming at it. The networks were coming at it from like, what is the scene doing here? What what is this relevant to anything? But we wanted it because we knew the audience would resonate with it, we knew that would really be powerful for them, and within the context of the entire series, it's a really important moment. Um, so we've we've managed to keep it in and we push for it, and we've now seen you know, people on Instagram and online, you know, they share it, they respond to it. You know, it has a big reaction. So um, you know, it's it's there's a very active fan base who are very um responsive to that series, and that's been really, really lovely to see that it's had such an impact. Um, so yeah, it was it was a really great time. Um starting to lose my voice.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:29

Well, we've uh we've believe it or not, we've actually run out of time. I I I want to bring you back at some point, I've got to be honest, um, because there's still more lots more that I want to ask you. Um we can touch upon. Are you up for that? Yeah, I'll be up for that, definitely. Yeah, real. All right, well look, for the meantime, Scott, thank you very much for coming on, and I look forward to talking to you again. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:53

Awesome. Um, yeah, well, thank you for having me, and uh yeah, it was a real pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:59

Well, there you have it, another subject. A writer's world. Could you seriously see yourself becoming a writer? Knowing that, you know, some days that there's no money, there's no food, bread and jam for a week? I don't think so. And what about thinking outside the box to get an agent? It doesn't have to be a piece of writing, you know, that you're putting in it. You may have written a play. Go down that room. It may be a short film. Go down that room. Do anything to get an agent. If you're lucky enough, like Scott says, if you know someone in the business that knows about your work, get them to write a letter for you, yeah? And send that into the production company. Well, there you have it. Next day Scott has brought you another subject, but who's next? That's what I want to know. Next up is all about the beauty side of the business the hair and the makeup with Natalie Fox.