Ep 06 - Cold Case Letters

The sixth episode of Operation Podcast. A brand new official WA Police Force Podcast.

On this week’s show:

- Commander Gary Saunders and Detective Senior Sergeant Greg MacDonald discuss the homicide investigation into the Perth Motorplex murder.

- Crimefighting dog unmasked! We chat with her owner.

- Anonymous letters revealed in relation to a decades-old unsolved hit and run killing.

- The Commissioner joins the show once again.

- Pig-rustling and the "arrest" of Narambeen's favourite Centenarian!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This podcast discusses real life crimes and law enforcement matters. It may include detailed descriptions of criminal activity, traumatic incidents, and other content that could be confronting or distressing, particularly for victim survivors. Listener discretion is advised. If you find any of these topics upsetting, please consider whether this content is right for you and seek support if needed.

SPEAKER_09 0:26

Welcome back to Operation Podcast, the official Western Australia Police Force pod, which we can today reveal 100% of people say is their preferred weekly listen. Specifically, if the alternative is one hour of this. I'm Joey Katanzaro.

SPEAKER_08 0:44

I'm Maya Greve.

SPEAKER_09 0:44

I'm Sergeant Nate Gilmore. And coming up this week, the senseless murder of Nick Martin at the Perth Motorplex. For the first time, we take you inside the homicide investigation to catch a killer.

SPEAKER_08 0:55

The senior detectives open up on how one of the biggest investigations in WA policing history began and why they were so determined to make sure Nick Martin's loved ones received justice for their loss.

SPEAKER_07 1:06

A major crash cold case breakthrough in Albany, over a dozen suspects, and a mysterious letter.

SPEAKER_08 1:12

Why we need your help to catch a killer.

SPEAKER_09 1:15

And I can't believe I'm saying this in this day and age, but we're actually on the hunt for a real-life cattle rustler who has stolen almost 1,000 head of cattle.

SPEAKER_08 1:25

How did they manage to do that?

SPEAKER_07 1:26

We'll find out. Your Commissioner Cole Blanche joins us later in the episode to answer your questions. And Maya?

SPEAKER_08 1:33

And we have an update on our hero dog who assisted Mantra Police with an arrest.

SPEAKER_09 1:37

Do we still know who the good boy is? We are about to unmask this superhero. Hound. Superhero Hound. Hmm. Okay, everyone ready? Pod squad? Ready.

SPEAKER_08 1:48

Ready.

SPEAKER_09 1:49

Cool. This is Operation Podcast.

SPEAKER_07 1:56

You're listening to Operation Podcast. Over 30 years ago, a fatal hit and run shook Albany, and the driver was never caught. This week, detectives have launched a renewed public appeal, including a call for help to identify the author of letters sent to investigators and the victim's family. Joining us now is Detective Senior Sergeant Hugh Latessia, officer in charge of the major crash investigation section, who's in Albany today leading a renewed appeal for information. Boss, thanks for joining us. Can you tell us what's prompted this new appeal after all these years?

SPEAKER_12 2:32

So since moving to major crash or nearly 18 months ago, um, we've had a renewed focus on on unsolved hit and runs. So we've probably got half a dozen in the col case stack, if you like. Um we had some success uh at the start of last year when we um managed to resolve one from six years earlier. We were very happy with that. Um and coupled with uh a I guess a renewed um enthusiasm and support from our district office command, um there's there's resources now to work on these jobs and there's the appetite to work on them as well. So um all of that coupled together, um, we're now looking to have some success with this very, very old um you know, cultural.

SPEAKER_09 3:20

So what when did it actually happen, Hugh? And um can you tell us sort of give us the rough sort of circumstances of what we do know?

SPEAKER_12 3:28

Yeah, so in the early hours of the 7th of April, 1991, Mark Gregory um had left a party on Mercer Road in in what was then the outer suburbs of Albany. Um he was walking along Mercer Road and he was struck by a vehicle, and he was left on the on the road and he died on Mercer Road. The person that struck him didn't stop. Um then another passerby, another vehicle came along, saw Mr. Gregory on the road, um, obviously saw he was in need of urgent medical care. And he drove home. But he drove home so he could get a phone to ring the police in an ambulance, and then he returned to the scene. And that's when the murder that's when the investigation commenced. Now there's been there's been a lot of effort put into this over the years, as you can imagine, at the time there was significant effort, um, and and having never been resolved, it's been reinvestigated three other times since um and still remains unresolved.

SPEAKER_09 4:28

What about uh Nate mentioned a moment ago letters. Someone been writing to police with clues or some suggestion that they they know who may have been behind the wheel that night?

SPEAKER_12 4:45

So this is really the focus of our um investigations right here and now in Albany. There's been three three letters were sent to the two two to members of the family and one to the police here in Albany. It was addressed to the to the police station in Albany. Each of those three letters contains um information about the about the crash, about the incident. Um and and yes, it does nominate suspects, but it doesn't put any context around how these people are suspects. So our renewed push now is for the author of these letters to come forward, provide us the context behind the nomination of the suspects, tell us exactly what they know, to then give up us new avenue, avenues of inquiry to go and find further evidence and and to to get sufficient evidence to then charge those responsible.

SPEAKER_09 5:38

How many how many suspects do you have you well have have the letters, the author of the letters, how many suspects have they sort of put in the frame?

SPEAKER_12 5:49

Look, like say we've got seven good suspects. When I say good suspects, suspects nominated by by virtue of these letters. Um we want to work through them systematically to to find the person responsible. But you know, we we haven't lost part of the fact that you know they there could be multiple people could have been in the car. So if if three names are mentioned, they any of those three could have been in the car, could have been driving. Um and and you know, we know that in in a small town, people talk to each other. So the author of the of any of these authors of these letters would have spoken to someone, would have had a discussion with someone, would have mentioned it, would have aired their um their concerns. And and we we can't lose sight of the fact that they've written these letters, and with the intention of the police finding this information, with the intention of the police then taking action. We need a bit more. We need them to come forward and help us one a little bit more to get the the very absolute most amount of information we can, and then and then look forward to to solve the case from there.

SPEAKER_09 7:04

Hugh is um uh is it possible, is there anything that that you can sort of read out from the letters?

SPEAKER_12 7:11

Yeah, so there's three letters. Um this is one that was received at the police station in Albany back in 2013, and I'll just in part I'll read it to you. And it starts off with bar talk, story around town, Mr. Gregory hit and run, had altercation with Mr. Gregory at the same party. He left the party after Mr. Gregory in his vehicle, struck Mr. Gregory, drove home, told his father, removed rhubarb, aluminium, melted it down, buried car and f so that's the first one. That one's obviously handwritten. Um, so one of our investigative angles is to is to speak to people and get a um a sample of handwriting um so we can do so really winding a clock back to to really old-fashioned detective work in the case of that one. This um this next one was again, it's a handwritten letter, and it was pinned to the memorial cross on Ulster Road, just near where Mr. Gregory was was struck and subsequently died. Uh, and the daughter of Mr. Gregory brought this to the police going back a few years. Um and this one nominates a different suspect. This says is the one you should be interviewing. The deceased was at a party where the fight happened between these two. It was broken up, the deceased left the party. It was told, I was told sat there with the most hostile look. Uh, his face stormed, he stormed out of the party, took off his which disappeared days after. Believed to be buried under shed, being built that year, so I was told. He now owns and runs aware. He does own a high-powered gun, he does drugs and very schizo when smoking drugs and drinking a lot. Party was drugs-only held, so it's a little bit fractured in its uh grammar.

SPEAKER_06 9:10

Sure.

SPEAKER_12 9:11

Um, but that's nominating a gentleman by the name of so there's a line of investigation. Now, again, this has been written, this particular letter, and you may have noticed that it was difficult for me to read, sure, is written in a very um identifiable manner. So if we were to get a sample of handwriting, it would be very easy to compare it to this, because the handwriting is very is very specific. So, again, with that line of inquiry, very keen to um speak with the author of that letter and expand on exactly what they might know, you know, location of the property, a bit more about anything else that um happened in respect to the fight at the party, etc. You know, further witnesses may come from that. And and the last letter is one that was it was posted to the business um address. And this is a typed letter, it's a printed letter, so it's obviously been typed on a computer or something and it's printed. Um and it says, firstly, I apologize for the uh the way that you have found out, however, I'm rather ill and do not have much time left. That's not good for us. I was hoping the case would be resolved by now, however, I believe that the police certainly cannot find enough evidence to convict. The person who ran your father down in 1991 is a person by the name of I was speaking to someone just recently who knows where he is. They told me that they knew where you work, so I hope this finds you. I believe it to be true as he has no conscience. He used to beat people up for fun. He would have no hesitation to run your down and keep going. Has admitted the hit and run to more than one person. I've known about it for some time, but it was just hoping he would be caught by now.

unknown 11:02

I will not be here to see justice done. I just hope that he is somehow held accountable.

SPEAKER_12 11:08

Um I think for assault. Sorry, um, he's also spent time in jail, I think, for assault. I wouldn't be surprised. He's a thug, a drug dealer, and someone who has ruined many lives with his stinking habits. If I was a bit younger and well, I would go there and take him out myself, but that is out of the question. Sorry, young fella. Um, good man, he deserved better. Good luck in your fight for justice.

SPEAKER_09 11:34

Wow. Okay, so pretty, pretty compelling stuff, um, Hugh. Hugh, thanks very much uh for chatting with us and good luck uh to you and the team. Um I know that that family there has been waiting a long time for justice. So we really do hope that somebody recognises the handwriting or someone who knows something comes forward, especially the author of the letter or letters. Uh Nate, if they do, where where is a place to go if if they say they want to make a first contact with police?

SPEAKER_07 12:04

Yeah, so any information, no matter how big or small, uh you can make a report to Crimestoppers at crimestopperswa.com.au, or you can call the number 1-800-3330. Uh, can't stress enough, you can remain anonymous. However, investigators are really appealing for anyone with information to uh reach out, leave their details so they can uh help solve this coal case.

SPEAKER_09 12:28

Hugh, best of luck, mate, and we'll speak with you soon.

SPEAKER_12 12:31

Excellent. Thank you. Thanks very much.

SPEAKER_09 12:33

Thanks, Hugh. We'll speak to you soon, mate. On December 12, 2020, Nick Martin was murdered at the Perth Motorplex in front of family, friends, and thousands of spectators attending a Saturday night drag racing event. We've previously delved into the petty bikey politics that set the scene for this senseless and avoidable murder. And we've spoken about the suppression activity run by gang crime to prevent an all-out bikey water. But there was a second operation running in tandem to the gang response team and others that were raiding the clubhouses and kicking in doors across the state. This week we're diving into that side of the house: the homicide investigation to solve Nick's murder and bring justice to his loved ones. Joining us today are veteran detectives Gary Saunders and Greg MacDonald, who respectively occupied the positions of Deputy Commander of the Investigation and the SIO, which uh stands for Senior Investigation Officer. Gary, Greg, thanks very much for joining us. Welcome. A man's murdered at the motorplex, there's no immediate suspect, there's no murder weapon. What was your first solid lead? Where do you go to?

SPEAKER_03 13:39

There was a lot of work done, wasn't there, in relation to trying to extract as much evidence as we could or and information as we could out of the crime scene uh and out of um the surrounding area as well. Yeah, you know, we had over two and a half thousand people out in the motorplex when this homicide occurred, you know, and they all have mobile phones, and a lot of people recording there's a lot of CCTV. But I think the most um most significant thing probably was the recovered projectile, Greg, that you can talk about.

SPEAKER_04 14:12

So the first priority really is to secure your scene and gather what physical evidence you can from the scene, which occurred straight away. Um, so that yielded um a lot of good evidence. And obviously, as as Gary's mentioned, the projectile um was very useful for us. Beyond that, CCTV collection, mobile phone collection, witness interviews trying to ascertain exactly what had occurred, it was pretty obvious within a short period of time that uh Nick Martin had been shot from a distance.

SPEAKER_09 14:45

So um on that, was there something uh was there a uh a bit of a lead or a bit of a breakthrough in terms of starting to piece these things together before before the projectile even in in the the fact that there was a a patch of flattened grass?

SPEAKER_04 15:01

Yeah, so uh you start with the immediate scene, which is which is where injured parties were and you work your way out. And you expand out from there. So that's what we did. And and when you realise that you're looking at um uh someone has been shot from a distance, and obviously you look at at the likely locations, which is exactly what the initial um attending police did over the next 24 hours or so. So then you expand that out, and you you they very carefully walked through uh there's a bushland opposite and found uh a flattened area of grass. So um we engaged um a TRG um who uh operatives who were engaged in that sort of activity from the opposite side.

SPEAKER_05 15:48

That's our tactic response group, yep.

SPEAKER_04 15:50

Um, and then they gave us some advice on what they considered or what they observed and what they felt it would reveal to them, which is consistent with what we thought. Um, the location for a shooter just explained to us how someone would have um infilled and exfield from or entered and left that location.

SPEAKER_09 16:12

Um there was a hole in the fence, wasn't there? Yes. And that was about all there was. So a hole in the fence, a bit of flattened grass. You had some experts saying this makes sense. You knew that Nick Martin had been shot, you'd extracted a bullet. What about the what about the the the choice of that firing position itself? Did it sort of give you any idea or insight about maybe the type of person who you're looking for and their qualifications?

SPEAKER_03 16:41

Well, I I think what became very evident, right? It was it was a long shot, right? But it was what wasn't left at the scene that really concerned us. So, you know, when you talk about um someone with sniper skills or someone as a trained sniper, it's not also, it's not about necessarily the the shot itself. It's actually getting in and getting out without being identified and without leaving things um behind. So when we first recovered the scene, which we thought was the likely uh fire imposition, and that was supported by the fact that we actually had um a ramp, a safety ramp that was actually moved to increase the line of sight on the victim. Um we saw it firmed up, this is where the this the um shot was taken from. But they were inside the fence, there was actually no footprints, there was no discernment. So the person that took the shot didn't leave anything that you would normally suggest, no tracks, nothing. So he's that that suggested to us that we had someone that was actually trained in in that area. Okay, so someone who potentially was somewhat of a professional.

SPEAKER_04 17:53

Um well, someone with with the training to do it in that manner, which was consistent with the way our TRG are trained. So um there's this that military aspect became obvious at that point. Um so just in in terms of uh so inside the fence line, we found no evidence um apart from the depressed grass. But outside the fence line, um we recovered a partial shoe impression, um, which is on the gravel road outside. So that turned out to be really useful for us, um uh in terms of uh identifying or the footwear worn by the person we eventually charged.

SPEAKER_09 18:35

And before we get to that, I just want to quickly just circle back, Gary. You you mentioned the the ramp. The ramp, um my understanding is it it was potentially in the way of the shot that the that the uh the shooter had planned out, uh, and that he'd moved it, and it became apparent when you spoke to uh some of the staff at the motorplex that this ramp wasn't where it had previously been. That's right. There was no no DNA, no fingerprints, any trace on that?

SPEAKER_03 19:04

Nothing. The only way we actually identify that it had been moved, um, it had been in situ for some considerable time, and it was just a safety ramp that was pushed down against the barrier of the drag strip for people to evacuate if they needed to. Um and the grass underneath it was dead. So when when the ramp was actually moved to another location by the shooter, um you could see there was dead grass. So straight away we started to say, well, okay, what looks like this has been moved.

SPEAKER_09 19:35

So that that spot, the the the firing position, um I believe was it was just shy of 340 metres. Uh I believe. 336.4 or thereabouts. Yeah. Yep. 334, 336, somewhere in that ballpark. Uh you you now have these suspicions, pretty solid suspicions, that this is somebody who's got some military training and you've got a shoe print. I know that you both have reputations for being extraordinarily thorough and meticulous in your investigations, and that's a well-earned reputation. I've got a hard hunch. What what did you do once you'd identified the shoe print? And this this is something that maybe people at home are thinking about, you know, I'd like to be a homicide detective one day, or aspiring to do that. What did you do?

SPEAKER_04 20:22

Uh well we couldn't say for absolute certainty that it that was the correct shoe, but the impression we got from Frantic, and they identified a make. So um we we identified the make of shoes. So we then uh determined where those shoes were sold, how many came into Western Australia, which is about 7,800 pairs. Um, we started down the path of trying to identify every single purchaser of those shoes at one point. Subsequently, we didn't need to go quite that far, but that was that was the line of inquiry we were pursuing.

SPEAKER_03 20:58

That's uh that's ridiculous. Yeah. Well, that's the depths you have to go down to, and then you park it up and you go, Well, now I need to find the person who had his foot in that shoe.

SPEAKER_09 21:08

Yeah, absolutely. Well, uh, we'll get to Cinderella in just a little bit. Um, so there's not a lot to go on from my opinion, but you guys are the experts. I mean, you, and I will ask you, have done a few cases. Any idea how many homicide cases you've you you would have worked in your careers? Uh I've never counted, no, to be honest.

SPEAKER_03 21:30

Um considerable amount, but I've I've like like Greg O'Vloskann, I think, yeah. More than more than 20? Oh, yeah, more than 20. More than 50? Yeah. Yes, more than 50. Okay. Probably both of us have been somewhere probably up to between the 80 and 100 homicides over our career. Wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_09 21:48

Um I gotta ask, given given your depth of experience at this stage, early stage of this investigation, what are you thinking? Are you thinking this is problematic? We don't have a lot here, or is is there Quite a bit of evidence compared to some of the other ones you've worked on?

SPEAKER_04 22:03

Well, you have to start with the assumption that you're going to solve the crime, firstly. If you don't have that assumption or start from that point, um, you're never going to solve it. So we were always of the view that we would solve it. Um, and everything follows from that point. So the depths that we will pursue with our investigation, it depends on what the evidence is, how that, where that takes us. So um, but that's the starting point. Okay, so, and that's the starting point for every homicide. So you start, you know, there's there's an old adage that you clear the ground from under your feet first. So you look at what's obvious and what's close, and when you can't find what you need there, you start expanding your search. You look at more people, you identify more suspects, you try to implicate or eliminate them, um, and then you reach ideally a point where you're down to a very few people, or ideally one.

SPEAKER_03 22:59

I think we were always confident that we'd be able to solve it, but it was just um going to be complex with the amount of information that we were collecting uh and having to review and and work through. So you can imagine the first couple of weeks of this investigation was just us collecting and collating as much information as we could, which then we have to set about, you know, trying to sort through.

SPEAKER_09 23:23

Is it fair to say that there was a level of some level of uh sophistication or at least you know significant efforts made by the shooter to conceal their identity and make your job even more difficult?

SPEAKER_03 23:35

Oh, yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_04 23:37

So, you know, um so this person, the the shooter, clearly has some training and education in in um the role or the actions of a sniper. So uh we're looking for someone who knows what they're doing. This is not just a random thing, which which obviously adds to the complexity because, but it also assists us because we know we're looking for someone who's done this deliberately. This is not an accidental shooting. So, what's the motive? Um, how do they fit in? Uh so then you start looking, uh, and we spend a lot of time on victimology. Um, so we try to understand our victim, um, their lifestyle, who they associate with, uh, and that often leads us to the right direction to try and find the person responsible.

SPEAKER_09 24:24

Was that a complaint complicating factor, though, as well, given that you know Nick Nick Martin had there were the the life that he he led and and the world that he was in, there were a number of people, perhaps maybe that I think it's fair to say um may not have liked him very much.

SPEAKER_03 24:42

Yeah, I think was it 64 suspects? 64 suspects.

SPEAKER_09 24:45

64 suspects.

SPEAKER_03 24:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 24:47

Good gosh.

unknown 24:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 24:48

So that's what we had to work through, and we managed to um eliminate all but two, and they were the two people that we charged with the murder.

SPEAKER_09 24:56

So of those 64, you thought these are people who may have a motive in their mind to to murder Nick Martin?

SPEAKER_04 25:04

Motive, opportunity. Um, so there's a number of reasons why they might be a suspect. Um, but they were all categorised, um, fit fitted within the the designation for us as a suspect, and they all got eliminated apart from two. Okay.

SPEAKER_09 25:21

I want to come back to the the bullet, the autopsy. There was a few things that was revealed, I think, out of out of that. Um, and in fact, was the bullet was actually, or a fragment of it was it, was in um an associate or family member of um uh uh of Nick's?

SPEAKER_03 25:36

Yeah, so there were two important parts of the round. I'll let Greg discuss it. Um, but there was a like a um a red uh what was it like a poly polymer uh coating that went over the tip of the round, and then there was actually the round of its itself.

SPEAKER_04 25:54

So the round itself um passed through the victim, uh exited uh and lodged in the left arm of uh Ricky Chapman. Uh, and he gave us permission to remove that. So we recovered the metal part of the projectile. Um during the course of the post-mortem for Nick Martin, we recovered a small piece of red, which looks like red plastic, but it's actually a red polymer. So once we got that analysed along with the projectile, that gave us um information on the type of round it might have been. Um and our ballistics people identified it as a Hornady round, so a high-powered trail eight round for hunting large animals. Um, so the projectile itself has a red polymer tip on the on the end of it. So we identified that, uh, had a number of phone calls with Hornedy in America trying to uh work out how we could actually prove it was their round, uh, which we subsequently did. So we knew exactly what ammunition we were looking for at that point as well.

SPEAKER_09 27:06

And was there any way of using that directly to narrow down the list of suspects? I mean, how how difficult is it when we're talking about ammunition?

SPEAKER_04 27:16

Uh look, well, we we were we found that there were two main suppliers into Australia or importers of Hornady Rounds, um, and there were 15 um gun shops in Western Australia who could potentially purchase those rounds. So we obtained the records for 12 months for every one of those gun shops or firearms suppliers, anyone that fitted that who may have had access to uh ammunition or sold ammunition. And was the killer on the list? Yes.

SPEAKER_09 27:49

Did you know it at the time?

SPEAKER_04 27:50

No.

SPEAKER_03 27:51

No. Wow. And this is where we go back to our information collection, and then as evidence and stuff comes later in the investigation, we go back like SOZAV capture to try and do it.

SPEAKER_09 28:00

So those various things start to corroborate um between those pieces, those links between the evidence.

SPEAKER_03 28:06

And the round isn't necessarily so much linked to a suspect as it is to a firearm. It was very, very good evidence in relation to um the the firearm that that was used in in the homicide.

SPEAKER_09 28:19

Don't have the firearm yet, though, do we? No. Don't have the name of the shooter. Uh tire tracks. Any tire tracks? Anything like that?

SPEAKER_03 28:29

No, there was nothing outside the fence beside that partial um footprint, and we were very, very lucky to recover that because all the tire tracks, everything had been taken, but this partial um footprint that we found had actually been covered by a large leaf. Um so that that's to the extent that we'll need luck.

SPEAKER_09 28:47

Sometimes you need a little luck. Geez. Okay. There's one other thing I think that that probably I wanted to touch on. One other thing that maybe I don't know at the time, if it seemed significant to you, but there was another another kind of I guess lead that was provided through the autopsy on on Nick Martin. It was a tattoo.

SPEAKER_04 29:11

Yes, yes, it's a tattoo on Nick Martin's shoulder. Um, which is a bullet casing with the word pie in it. P Y E. P Y E. Yes. Um, and we were aware of uh, as part of our victimology, what Nick Martin's history was, people he'd interacted with, and obviously that name was of significance to us.

SPEAKER_09 29:36

And next week I think we'll we'll really delve into who David Pye is, why he is significant in in the investigation, and also that unusual. I I gotta say, I it was it blew me away. I can't want to give it away right now, but it blew me away the the way that you've made a link between some of this information and and identified a suspect um who is the the shooter. But before we go, I I do actually want to ask a personal question. You both said you've spent the better part of your careers doing homicide investigations and you've done so many of them. What is it that drives you when you're investigating a murder? And and in particular, this one, the the murder of Nick Martin.

SPEAKER_04 30:19

Oh, look. It's um, you know, that this uh it's a it's quite a privilege in in many ways to actually investigate homicide because you know it's the most serious crime we have. Um and and we are entrusted um to investigate to the best of our ability on behalf of the vic of the family and the victim. So our first obligation um is to the victim. Okay, our job is to identify the person responsible for their death. Closely related to that is the family. And it's uh it's very difficult dealing with the family when someone they love has been murdered. Um, you know, we we feel that obligation to them because obviously they're alive and we can interact with them. So uh there's a strong sense of obligation to try to solve it. Um beyond that, there's there's an aspect of you know, trying to bring the right person to justice because there's a process that that needs to be followed, but it's mostly about trying to to uh look after or not look after, but to do the right thing by the victim and the family. That's a big part of it.

SPEAKER_03 31:31

Yeah, well, it's that sums it up, you know, to the families, uh we owe them the truth, you know, and to the uh deceased or the victims, then we owe them justice, and I think that's what just keeps you keeps you going, you know.

SPEAKER_09 31:43

It is an incredibly tough and incredibly important job. How does it feel when you when you're actually able to bring that justice to a family, when you're able to sit down with somebody who you probably got to know quite well over the journey, over the investigation, and say, we've we think we've got the person who did this?

SPEAKER_04 31:59

Um I wouldn't say it's a relief, but it's almost almost like a relief, really, because um, you know, particularly uh a really uh lengthy and and complex investigation like this one. Uh you invest a lot of yourself, um, a lot of your time. Um and it's uh it's a sense of satisfaction, obviously. Um, but it's also a relief because nobody ever wants to not be able to solve it. So you don't ever want to be in a position where you're saying to the family, look, we don't know. So it's important that we can say to the family, look, we know who it was, we've charged them, we've put them before a court, um, we've done the best that we can do to bring that person to justice.

SPEAKER_03 32:47

And I think what Greg was saying about you actually invest yourself into it. You know, you you live and you breathe these jobs until you bring it to some type of resolution. Um it's it's part of you.

SPEAKER_09 33:01

Gentlemen, thanks very much for joining us today. Looking forward to speaking to you next week. Thank you. This is Operation Podcast.

SPEAKER_07 33:09

You're listening to Operation Podcast. Some say he can read a briefing note faster than a roadside speed camera. He is the final boss of policing in Western Australia, your Commissioner, Cole Blanche. Sir, thanks again for joining us. Some questions for you from our listeners. Are you ready for your first one?

SPEAKER_06 33:27

Go over it.

SPEAKER_07 33:28

How are technologies like AI changing policing? Is it all for the better? And what are some of the challenges?

SPEAKER_06 33:35

That's a really good question. And we do know that technologies have certainly changed policing, but they have since uh typewriters got replaced with desktop computers. Um and I was around during that time, and we all sort of thought, oh, well, policing will get easier because of technology, but how wrong we were, I think uh policing certainly got more difficult. More information was available to police. And I think technology is a necessary part of policing purely because of the amount of data that is now collected by the community, by the police force, the amount of data people put onto, you know, onto the internet, on their phones. So sadly, some of those people are criminals and do commit criminal offenses. So collecting the data and working out what they did and uh acquiring the appropriate evidence for court simply requires technology and requires capabilities that are much more efficient and faster than the human brain in absorbing all of that data. So it's it's a necessary part. And I think the best way to deal with technology as a police force is to just to be open, transparent, and let our community exactly know how we are using technology so they can feel comfortable with it.

SPEAKER_09 34:49

Fantastic. That's a good answer. Um okay. Here's one from Melissa, who's one of our listeners in the UK, where we are actually recruiting. If you're a police officer with three or more years of experience, you can come across. Uh, is there a pathway for someone interested in becoming a police officer but reluctant to work on the front line?

SPEAKER_06 35:11

Uh that's a really good question. And I think what it does do is reflect on modern day policing and probably an introduction of a whole new cohort of operational support people in the police force. So the simple answer is no. When you start in policing and go through the police academy and you put on that blue shirt, the expectation is for a few years at least is that you'll be on the street wearing a firearm, wearing equipment, wearing a ballistic vest, and doing, I would say, the hardest job in policing, and that is going out every day responding to radio calls and responding to triple zero calls. Um, however, policing has become extremely specialized, and we have brilliant, absolutely brilliant people from data analysts, intelligence analysts, forensic scientists, prosecutors, um, brief uh assistants, disclosure officers. This is the future of policing, and it's that real operational support to make sure that the men and women on the front line are uh responding to triple zero as best they can, are helping people as fast as they can, are solving crime as best as they can. So my advice is to anyone who doesn't want to be on that pointy end is to look for these new type of jobs that will only grow into the future, and that is those doing really extremely valuable work. And we know how valuable forensics is, we know how valuable our prosecutions are, and the data science and intelligence that goes along with solving crime is amazing stuff and it's really exciting. So if you don't want to be on the front line, that's where I'd be aiming.

SPEAKER_07 36:45

We've got, you know, we've got their police auxiliary officers as a pretty heavy recruitment drive on them at the moment. And I mean, I can vouch for their services in the watch house, and from a property management point of view, they are the unsung heroes behind the scenes of what we do.

SPEAKER_06 36:59

Nate, you know, if you speak to any frontline police officer and say who's, you know, who who's the most helpful person in this police force, they'll always point to a police auxiliary officer or a intelligence analyst or someone doing the work that not only makes them look good because they solve crimes fast and have good prosecutions, they really are part of the team. And I think that's the joy of policing today. It's not just a group of blue shirt police officers, it's actually a collection of extremely valuable people. Love that.

SPEAKER_08 37:26

Absolutely. And our next question's from Charlotte. What is the strangest excuse someone has given you when you've arrested them?

SPEAKER_06 37:34

I I must say I've had a wide and a varied number of excuses given to me in my time when I was arresting people, albeit some time ago now. But the one that always struck me the most, and I got it quite regularly, was uh today was the day I was going to turn a new leaf. I I after today I wasn't going to commit crime. You got me on the worst day. I was really going to stop it all tomorrow. It was my last day. It's always the last day of ever committing crime, and just unfortunately, they happened to get arrested on that day. And to be honest, I never really bought the argument. I think the only reason they stopped that day is because they were in handcuffs.

SPEAKER_09 38:07

Well, technically, yeah, technically it was their last day. Good work, boss.

SPEAKER_07 38:12

For me, it was the uh when I was at traffic, that the guy with the bald tires, he was always on his way to the tie shop, just as we happened to pull him over. Yep. You know, as as soon as the yellow sticker book came out.

SPEAKER_06 38:22

So yeah, I think uh excuses by drivers is always, I mean, I think if you got a traffic guy in, he'd probably have a thousand reasons as to they've been given as to why they were speeding on the phone, no seat belt, car was unroadworthy. I think they've heard it all.

SPEAKER_09 38:37

I got pulled over in uh New South Wales once, and I don't know if I actually was speeding or not. I I really don't know. But he came over to check on me and then he says, What are you listening to? And at the time it's the the uh the equivalent of the Golden Aldies radio station, and he sort of shouted out to his party, this guy's leader to the golden oldies, he's no threat to anybody, off you go. So, you know, traffic, you know, there's there's good traffic off traffic officers out there, good sense of humor, aren't they, Nate? You're you're a former road policing guy, definitely.

SPEAKER_06 39:04

I'll tell you what, traffic guys know their stuff, they do. And uh, if you ever are a new police officer to policing, I highly recommend going out with traffic guys because they know everything on the roads, they know everything about cars, they know everything about people's licenses, you know, trucks. Uh it's actually a good capability to know in your toolkit as a police officer traffic stuff.

SPEAKER_09 39:28

Anything else before we left the police?

SPEAKER_08 39:29

One last question from Lucas, he's 10 years old. He wants to know what subjects are helpful at school if you want to work in the police.

SPEAKER_06 39:36

Oh, that's great. I what I do like is Lucas is already thinking about joining the police, so he's already off to a fantastic start. Um, I don't think there's any real defined answer to that because what we really want about from our police officers is integrity and duty, meaning that they're they're coming to work, they're they're a good teammate of others, and they work hard. So, anyone that's at school today, if you're applying yourself to your subjects and you're keen to be a police officer, put your application in. You might find yourself in your blue shirt out on the street before you know it. Um, because not only do we uh accept people from school and and coming through school, but you can be mature age, you can be someone from a trade background, any background. Again, we're just looking for good people who have the integrity to join and who love working with our community.

SPEAKER_07 40:24

What about tertiary qualifications? Is that desirable at all?

SPEAKER_06 40:28

Look, I think a lot of people uh go down that pathway, like criminology and maybe law degrees, but it's not necessary. It certainly helps you have a better appreciation, I suppose, of the legal and the justice system. Um, but again, I I look about people's character. I think people's character is what I have seen in my career of what made a good police officer, someone who's got empathy and compassion, dedication to the job, uh, you know, loves engaging with people and has got a passion to solve crime. Character is what makes a good police officer, not necessarily their education.

SPEAKER_09 40:59

There you go. Very good. Well, if you are interested in joining us, let's join forces.wa.gov.au.

SPEAKER_08 41:06

And if you have a question for the commissioner, email it to operation.podcast at police.wa.gov.au.

SPEAKER_09 41:13

Boss, thanks very much for coming on. Pleasure to be here. This is Operation Podcast. And here for our weekly chat about news and news headlines in police media, Claire.

SPEAKER_01 41:26

Thanks for having me. It's okay. You know, actually, it's a really good thing. This week, usually police media is filled with some pretty sad, yeah, some pretty tragic stuff.

SPEAKER_09 41:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 41:37

But this week we're leaning into the good news. We love that. Which is great. So you guys might have heard and obviously remember last week speaking about the hero dog who helped take down an offender. Um, well, nine news and local nine news reporter actually found his owner. Oh. Um, so Janice joined us a little earlier on the podcast. Take a listen to what she had to say.

SPEAKER_11 41:59

She just protects the house and the street and all the people in it. Um, she takes it upon herself to do that. We are proud of her and we owe our life basically to this dog. I know she would die for us to protect us. And what I would really love is the picture that's floating around on the internet with her with her police cap on.

SPEAKER_06 42:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_11 42:26

Somebody could print that up for us. I would really love that photo.

SPEAKER_09 42:31

Janice is going to consider it done. We'll be in touch.

SPEAKER_11 42:35

Yeah, that would be lovely. And anything else, she's proud to us. I know she gets a big kick out of it because I feel they give you the love back. You know, you can't always trust humans, but your animals will always stick by you.

SPEAKER_09 42:50

Okay, so Janice also revealed that DJ, her dog of justice. Dog of justice, if you will. Uh, we don't know what DJ stands for. Uh, but what sort of dog is it, Mike?

SPEAKER_08 43:02

It's a three-year-old husky cross hunter way.

SPEAKER_09 43:04

Okay. Uh DJ was named by uh an ex-partner. She kept the dog, she booted the partner, basically. Um, and we understand that DJ sometimes orders around the neighborhood. I had a dog like that once. Um, there's no judgment there whatsoever. I'm just speaking about that one night. On that night, DJ was a very good girl. And as a result, the canine unit are very keen to give DJ a certificate of appreciation. It's something we'll hopefully bring you next week.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

And it's a little bit of a I guess an honorary member of our little canine unit. So um, yeah, it was great to chat to Janice a little earlier. In some other good news, um, we have had a regional policing job that you Probably wouldn't expect it was an arrest of a 100-year-old lady.

SPEAKER_09 44:04

What do you mean, arrest of a hundred-year-old lady? You're making me nervous.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

She actually turned 100 and she had never ridden in a police car in her life. So the local OIC out at Narrumbean in the wheat belt um arrested her, in quotes.

SPEAKER_09 44:18

Okay, so she wasn't really arrested.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

No, she wasn't really arrested. She just had a uh a ride in a police car for the first time in her life, in her 100 years.

SPEAKER_09 44:26

Wow. Okay. Ticking off those bucket list items. Did you chat with the officer boy and chance?

SPEAKER_01 44:31

Yeah, we did. And and here's a little bit about what he had to say um during that that chat with him.

SPEAKER_13 44:36

My biggest issue was how I was going to get a 100-year-old woman who's who's not very tall. And if you've seen the photos on Facebook, she's not very tall. How was I gonna get Mrs. Bristow into the front seat of the uh of the High Lux?

SPEAKER_07 44:51

I'm glad you said front seat and not in the pod.

SPEAKER_13 44:55

Well, there was a couple of comments there about putting her in the um the forfeited uh Maserati.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

Oh, that would have been great.

SPEAKER_09 45:04

We did have uh a Maserati badged up for those who aren't aware, uh, that was forfeited under our our Hoon, anti-HUN legislation. Uh badged up as a WA police car for a time. Uh maybe a little racy for Iris, but um, hey, maybe not. Maybe not. Um, she enjoyed the experience, so I take it.

SPEAKER_01 45:21

She definitely did. And and we should make a note that you know, regional policing is is really about the community. Triple zero calls and emergencies obviously are the priority, but um, you know, the community is such a big part of regional policing.

SPEAKER_09 45:34

Yeah, absolutely. Community conference is is really important. Um, but if a triple zero call to come in, I imagine the officer probably would have said had to leave Iris by the side of the road. I mean, really, realistically.

SPEAKER_07 45:47

Policing's got to take the priority, but um, yeah, like Claire said, it's it's a community, a positive community story, and it's something we we celebrate in uh in in our regional areas. Okay, thanks, Claire. Thanks for coming on. Closing out this segment is our very own police pipe band, and they are going to play a tribute to Iris. Uh ironically, well, coincidentally, the song name is Iris by the Goo Goo Docs.

SPEAKER_09 46:07

Maybe not even coincidentally. Iris, happy birthday. It's a mystery fit for the 1890s. Almost 1,000 head of livestock have gone missing from a property in the great southern region of Western Australia. First they came for the pigs, then they came for the sheep. Now the law is coming for these modern day cattle rustlers. We're joined today by Sergeant Marty Campbell, who is on the case. Marty, how are you going? How are you? Good, mate, good. How many animals have gone missing? And what's and and and and are we sure that they've been stolen? They haven't just wandered off.

SPEAKER_02 46:56

No, I mean that was uh certainly what we looked at. There was uh up to about 900 sheep, so they're about um seven to eight months old at the time. And uh they're valued at about $112,000 to $120,000 on the today's market, so it's not a small amount of finance, unfortunately.

unknown 47:14

But um yeah, how sure will we they've been stolen?

SPEAKER_02 47:17

Well, the gentleman's been around and all over his property, he's been to his neighbours, they've checked all the fences. Um we've had stock squad down there and they've done a flyover with the drone and everything else, and there's no um no bodies anywhere, and there's no other area they could actually be sort of gone into.

SPEAKER_09 47:33

So um as far as we're aware, it seems very suspicious.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

And and time frame wise, there was uh it was yeah, it was a couple of weeks over that they um they did a count on the sheep, and they do certain things as they go along with the dipping and of and lice and and tagging and so forth with the with the sheep as they come through, and they did a count just before Christmas, and then they did another one just in January and noticed a big drop in the numbers. They expect to get some sort of um losses in regards to to lambs and so forth with foxes and just disease and all the other things that go along with it, but nothing like that.

SPEAKER_09 48:08

Nowhere near to that extent.

SPEAKER_02 48:09

You know, you might be might lose 30 to 40 out of 1800 sheep, but when they brought them in, there was just less than half, or just on half, and they that certainly aroused the suspicions because it was quite a noticeable amount that had gone missing. So they did all their own investigations straight off the bat, looking around to see if fences had gone. The interesting part was that the gentleman said that the number of sheep that had gone would be in a double trailer. Ah, so you know, that's the same number that you'd have with a truck that would it would fit. So it makes it very suspicious that they've been lifted by the truck.

SPEAKER_09 48:38

But um what about the pigs though? Wasn't there some pigs on as well?

SPEAKER_02 48:41

Yeah, that was back in uh November that was reported to us, but that was over a month that it went missing. So over the a month they've suddenly noticed that these 70 pigs have gone missing, which is strange enough, was uh the month before Christmas. So who knows?

SPEAKER_08 48:54

No Christmas, Sam. When you get an investigation like this, how how do you investigate it? What what are your kind of ways of finding out what's happened?

SPEAKER_02 49:03

It's certainly being uh new to a sort of farming area, we had to do a lot of research and speak to a lot of people.

SPEAKER_09 49:09

So our local farmers, local um elders and things, things like that, we went to see and speak to them about it because look, it is bizarre, it seems, to us, the the uninitiated here, that cattle rustling of a type is happening in this day and age. But it actually does happen every now and then, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 49:28

Yeah, it does. There's been a few other reports over the last 12 months in the in the sort of district, but you know, it's uh when the prices are up, it's a tempting thing for those that might be unemployed or in that industry or have worked as shearers or farmers or farmhands that uh can see a quick dollar.

SPEAKER_09 49:45

We're talking about big properties as well, so you know, it's not like that someone's gonna hear hear them arriving necessarily if we're talking like you know, hectares upon hectares.

SPEAKER_02 49:55

Um No, I mean in October or November there was still harvesting going on, so there's lots of trucks moving around at any one time, and it really isn't unusual to see a truck with pigs on board to be moving at that time of night because they tend to move them at night because they do make a lot of noise and they're not the most pleasant of trucks to be near if they pull up in your town to refuel or get a coffee. So they tend to do that mostly at night.

SPEAKER_09 50:15

I guess so. But nine nine hundred uh sheep and and and what a hundred pigs, something like that.

SPEAKER_02 50:25

I think they might have done that in smaller loads. That was another thing we we looked at is where they'd take in a dozen at a time or half a dozen every second night or something just to ease it into it without it being noticed.

SPEAKER_09 50:35

Wow, there's just really no pulling the wool over your eyes, that's for sure. You're not getting that's right. Yeah, they have been fleeced. Yeah, it's a good point. And look, we have to we we do have to probably caveat this and say that um it's a very large property and and you know it's not been um entirely catastrophic for for the um the primary producer. However, it is a good point that it's it still sucks, like it's a horrible thing.

SPEAKER_02 51:03

Absolutely does, absolutely does. And uh and the other interesting thing looking into it and speaking to the old farmers was some of the ways they said that it could have been done.

SPEAKER_13 51:10

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 51:10

And uh I didn't know that uh they tell me, and this is only speaking to the old school people, that if you reel out toilet paper on the ground at night with a moon at night, the sheep won't cross the white line and will just run along the edge of it like it's a fence. So these are the old ways that they obviously used to do these things and they they were aware of it, so they were letting me know these things. So that was quite interesting. And if they're genuinely people that do this quite regularly, they'll have dogs that won't even bark, but will still round the sheep up for you. Jeez, that is I don't know how true that is, but that's what we're getting told.

SPEAKER_08 51:42

So and so what are we what are we now looking for? And how can people help if if they know anything? Yeah, how do we solve this cattle crime?

SPEAKER_02 51:49

Um, especially with the pigs, I mean, that's very different. Um, it'll be suddenly someone's had them all turn up on their property, someone may know something, or have someone trying to sell them an animal cheap in regards to the sheep. They've no doubt been blended into somebody else's flock for the moment, but uh the plastic tags will still be around somewhere wherever they've removed them. So there's 900 of those sitting in someone's bin or someone's pile on the property somewhere or dumped in the bush, so that may turn up.

SPEAKER_09 52:14

Mate, uh, thank you so much um for coming on and having a chat with us. If you do know anything, please call Crime Stoppers. Uh and and we hope to hear from you soon, Marty. And I trust that uh that once you do have these rustlers in your custody, you will read them their rights. As in Do I have to spell that out or do I just let that one go?

SPEAKER_08 52:38

Let that one go. And let it go.

SPEAKER_09 52:40

Okay. All right. Thanks very much, Marty. Speak to you soon.

SPEAKER_10 52:44

Thanks, man. Okay, take care. Ciao.

SPEAKER_09 52:46

Operation Podcast.

SPEAKER_10 52:47

All units, the WA police force is looking for people who are big on community and solving true crime, not just watching it, you know? Ordinary people up for doing extraordinary things.

SPEAKER_01 52:57

Sound like you? Search Let's Join Forces.

SPEAKER_09 53:01

Thanks very much for listening to another episode of Operation Podcast. Some crazy, crazy details out of the uh Operation. Yeah, the the murder investigation. And also, how about the letters? Head to the socials for West Australia Police Force, have a look, see if you know somebody who has that handwriting, help us solve this cold case, bring justice to the family.

SPEAKER_07 53:24

And if you know something or you've heard something, jump on to Crime Stoppers, give us a call. Investigators want to hear from you.

SPEAKER_09 53:31

And Maya had to run, but last week she teased our history fact. Uh, she asked us, how long have women been in policing here in Western Australia? Well, it turns out the first female officers were appointed in 1917. Their names were Helen Dugdale and Laura Chipper, uh, and their job description was to, and I quote, patrol slum neighborhoods, look after drunken women, and obtain assistance for their neglected children. Now, for decades, women were required to resign when they got married, as seen in the 1924 case of one officer named Winifred Phillips, who left the force to wed. This actually remains the case, shamefully, right up until the mid-1970s. Now, imagine where we'd be today if we didn't have our amazing female police officers. Uh I I think we'd be in a lot of trouble. We've had quite a few on this podcast, and you'll hear from many more who are doing fantastic, amazing, incredible work keeping our community safe and solving crime. Nate, what about what about next week? What do you got?

SPEAKER_07 54:38

Yeah, so uh next week we cracked the case of a mystery explosion in the Southwest way back in 1883. Reports of gunfire, bizarre title movements that took years to explain. What was it? Find out in the next episode of Operation Podcast.

SPEAKER_09 54:54

Okay, taking us out. The WA police pipe band, happy birthday, Iris. Here's the goo goo goo goo. The goo goo dolls got there in the end. Just took me a hundred years, just like Iris. This is Operation Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 55:49

Sound editing by Joe and Danny, the cover song by the WA Police Piper Band, and Cheesy Podcast Theme Music by Joey Catanzaro. And by the way, why just listen to a podcast about policing when you could actually be doing it? Let's join forces.gov.au.