Ep 07 - Bikie Murderer Revealed, Police Shooting Explained - WA POLICE FORCE PODCAST

Episode number 7 of Operation Podcast! The official WA Police Force Podcast.

On this week’s show:

- Commander Gary Saunders and Detective Senior Sergeant Greg MacDonald are back on! Listen as they talk through how they caught a killer using beef jerky.

- We interview Acting Senior Sergeant Mike Little, as we revisit the 2020 South Hedland stabbing attack.

- The Commissioner joins the show once again.

- Help WA Police locate a murder weapon.

- Krakatoa, Cold case previews and more!

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

This podcast discusses real life crimes and law enforcement matters. It may include detailed descriptions of criminal activity, traumatic incidents, and other content that could be confronting or distressing, particularly for victim survivors. Listener discretion is advised. If you find any of these topics upsetting, please consider whether this content is right for you. Seek support if needed.

SPEAKER_09 0:30

Welcome back to Operation Podcast, the official Western Australia Police Force weekly podcast, where we believe tackling the biggest problems in our community can generally be achieved by tackling the biggest problems in our community and putting handcuffs on them. I'm Joey Catanzaro. I'm Sergeant Nate Gilmore.

SPEAKER_06 0:46

And I'm Meyer.

SPEAKER_09 0:47

And this week, a very difficult topic. What happens after a police officer is forced to shoot someone to protect our community?

SPEAKER_08 0:56

We're joined by acting senior sergeant Mike Little, who opens up on possibly one of the most difficult parts of the job.

SPEAKER_06 1:02

And a warning to listeners: the armed offender did not survive. So please consider if this episode is right for you.

SPEAKER_09 1:09

Very serious stuff. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:11

And police media will join us.

SPEAKER_08 1:13

Why your backyard might hold the key to solving a murder. Ooh.

SPEAKER_09 1:17

The Commissioner answers your questions as always, but first we will continue to delve into how we caught the shooter behind the senseless murder of bikey boss Nick Martin at the Perth Motorplex.

SPEAKER_06 1:30

This is Operation Podcast.

SPEAKER_09 1:36

We spent the past few weeks unpacking the murder of Nick Martin at the Perth Motorplex in 2020 and the police response. Last week, senior homicide squad detectives Gary Saunders and Greg MacDonald spoke about the beginnings of what would become one of the most complex homicide investigations in the history of the Western Australia Police Force. They join us again today. Thanks very much for coming, gentlemen. Just to recap, last week you explained that Nick was shot by a high-powered rifle from a distance, that the shooter had gone to great lengths to conceal their identity, that their planning in stealthy entry and exit suggested that maybe you were looking for someone with military grade training. Which brings us to possibly the biggest hunt for CCTV this agency has embarked upon at that time. Is that right? Okay. Can we quantify just how much effort was put in to try and locate any trace of this shooter, given that we had no DNA, nothing at this stage?

SPEAKER_02 2:37

Well, we we essentially found every CCTV location within about three kilometres of the motorplex, uh, which was uh a lot of work. We also obtained all the CCTV from trains that were south side over uh that period or the the weeks leading up to it, and every bus. Um, and we wound up eventually with about 180 terabytes worth of data, CCTV data.

SPEAKER_11 3:12

180 terabytes.

SPEAKER_08 3:14

To break that down is something in the vicinity of 2,069 videos and over 670 photos. Does that sound about correct?

SPEAKER_03 3:23

Um about 90,000 hours of CCTV. 90,000 hours.

SPEAKER_09 3:28

We've done the calculations, I think. How long would it have taken one person to to go through all of that?

SPEAKER_02 3:34

This is a rough calculation, of course. We think um one person working 40 hours a week um would take about 30 years to go through all of that CCTV. Wow. Okay, it was a massive task at the time, but um that was we felt our best opportunity to try and identify the movement of people in and around the motorplex. Uh so we we felt that was it was a primary, one of our primary tasks in the very early stages.

SPEAKER_09 4:06

And there were lots of police officers at that point, weren't there, that that were sort of involved both in that initial response and that sort of canvassing.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

Yeah, and I do remember the numbers? By January we had about between 55 to 60 people on the investigation itself. Um, and the disruption phase was winding down, so we absorbed a lot of those people. So 50 to 60 people for most of the investigation.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

And there was a a period where we did it. So it was an increased, uh, a real intense um CCW collection, and it had to be over a very um quick period of time in which we did it. Otherwise, they'd start recording over, we'd start losing that evidence. Because we also did the northern and southern border cross-ins and we did the domestic and international airports um for a for a two-week period, uh, because we just didn't know whether this was someone coming into the state or leaving the state. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 5:00

So you cast the net exceptionally wide. You talked about last week how you start at the beginning of the crime scene, you start at the murdered person, individual, in this case, Nick, and you're casting it further and further abroad. We did touch upon the fact that during the autopsy, a tattoo was located on Nick Martin's back, and that was a tattoo of a shell casing within which was written the surname Pye, PYE. Did you identify the person who inspired this tattoo and and were they pretty quickly a suspect?

SPEAKER_03 5:32

Oh yes. So um it was the name was significant to us, yeah, uh, probably even before we found the tattoo.

SPEAKER_02 5:39

Okay, look, he was uh uh Dave Pye's name came up very early on. Um so we're aware of him um from very early in the investigation. Um and yeah, he was clearly a suspect. Why was he clearly a suspect in this instance? It's a history of uh antagonism or dislike between he and Nick Martin. So um that sort of behavior lends us to uh consider people who may have a motive. Um and he fitted that bill.

SPEAKER_09 6:12

And uh a few episodes ago, Assistant Commissioner Tony Longhorn went into the, as the commissioner would call it, the bikey politics, the petty bikey politics that led to that animosity, if you're interested. Okay. So you've got sixty something suspects at this stage.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

One of them is it took us a while to get to the 64, but 64, yep. Yeah, 64 in total. Um that was over a period of time.

SPEAKER_09 6:35

One of them, one of them is David Pye. Yes. So once he's a suspect, what happens next?

SPEAKER_02 6:39

Well, we start we start investigating that person and their links to Nick Martin. Um, what are their movements, what do they do, how do they fit into the picture? Um his OMCG history was very relevant. He'd been a rebel previously, fallen out with Nick Martin, left, um, joined uh well, joined the Comacheros, um, and during the course of this investigation he became a Mongol as well. So had a history of movement between clubs. Um and then we looked for opportunities to investigate him further to implicate or eliminate him. Um so it's probably worth noting very early on that we're aware that he was on home detention bail at the time of the shooting. So we were quickly eliminated him as the shooter. Um so But you didn't stop looking at him though, did you? No, no, because um given the history between them, um there was the potential that he had another involvement um which we had to uh eliminate.

SPEAKER_09 7:45

So you've got your 64 suspects, he's one of them. You haven't discounted his possible involvement, but you have discounted probably that he's not the shooter at this stage. How do you go from that to making some, I guess, progress on the case?

SPEAKER_03 8:04

Uh well, I guess our investigation sort of centred around Pai um being involved in the planning and uh and procuring of the offence. So um even though he was on home detention bail and didn't have much movement, and whatever movement he did have, we'd be able to see due to his electronic monitoring. We were very interested to find out what who he was associating with and um and who was attending his his residence.

SPEAKER_09 8:34

So you start watching the place. Southern Suburbs Home. And fair to say at this point that maybe even though there are there is a history of animosity between uh David Pye and and Nick Martin, that maybe Pye isn't a uh aware that Nick Martin's tattoo has really put him in the frame at this stage as a serious contender, as a serious suspect?

SPEAKER_03 9:01

Uh yes. Well I think he knew he was gonna get looked at and he was gonna look at it. He would have known.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

Yeah, and I think I could be confident that he would have known that he was going to be subject to some scrutiny.

SPEAKER_09 9:12

Um Perhaps not the level of scrutiny that he received?

SPEAKER_03 9:17

No. I think he was reasonably confident that um we may sort of uh alibi him quite quickly by way of his GPS monitoring. He obviously thought that was uh quite a good way to provide an alibi that wasn't him that was involved in it.

SPEAKER_09 9:32

So you're watching the house. Did something or someone emerge as, well, uh a lead, uh a next link in what's going on in your investigation?

SPEAKER_03 9:45

Well, someone was identified visiting the premises that didn't fit the um the persona of uh most of other visitors, most of the people to the house um we knew of, or they were OMCG related, or they had criminal history, and uh and then one popped up that didn't fit that mould, you know.

SPEAKER_09 10:06

And um Can we talk about about gen in general terms who who that that might have been or or what it was that that sort of piqued your interest?

SPEAKER_03 10:16

Well, at that particular stage we didn't know. Um we just had the cards and the address, and when we looked at him we thought, well, this guy doesn't fit the type of person that would be associating with OMCG. You know, he was a clean skin, he didn't have any significant uh intelligence profiles or or anything like that. And that really uh drew our interest is who is this person and why is he associating with David Pye?

SPEAKER_02 10:39

So then we look into him to try to find out what we can about him. He has a military history, um he's uh uh a risk taker, I suppose you would say, given his past. Um and we then um start looking more closely at him and trying to ascertain how he may fit in. Um at when that so it's a very early it it takes time to develop this. This is like you're developing a profile of someone. Um, you know, what's their history, what is their education, what are his skills, how do they fit into this? Do they have access to firearms? All those sorts of things.

SPEAKER_03 11:22

And these type of people don't necessarily put their lives all over the place. So they you you're in you have to go off and actually investigate certain circumstances and why was he here and what was he doing there? Because, you know, these people don't publish everything that they do. Aaron Powell He had access to a firearm, didn't he?

SPEAKER_09 11:37

Yes, yes. Licensed firearm, I think. Right? Yeah. Of a type that maybe could make a shot from about 300 odd meters? Yes. Okay. He had military experience, which you flagged last week, was somebody potentially that might have taken that shot because of the capabilities. What about uh Shadows of Hope? There's uh a group, a mercenary group. Was he involved in that?

SPEAKER_03 12:01

Yeah, he was, yes. And that's what really sparked our interest, probably more than his reservist um history, which we could easily access and identify what he was trained in and what skills he had. Whereas Shadows of Hope, you know, they're an organization that just described themselves as the world's most fearless charity.

SPEAKER_09 12:19

Um But it sounds a lot like, and I and admittedly, um, in a former life as a reporter, I did actually interview uh someone from Shadows of Hope. He had an eye patch. Um, and they sounded a lot like some of the work that they did involved mercenary work that maybe could uh involve actual firefights in in places, war-torn places like Syria, for instance. Um I don't want to go too far ahead or race ahead, but I I believe during the trial that the shooter, and please correct me if I'm wrong, made some reference to the fact that he could not recall how many people he had killed.

SPEAKER_03 13:00

Is that correct? Yes, and through our investigation now, our evidence collection in relation to him from electronic devices and other matters, we actually put him in certain areas, war uh war zones and and different countries where you know Australians shouldn't be, where he was obviously providing the services of a of a mercenary or protections um to medical facilities, etc., over there.

SPEAKER_09 13:25

And um that really, really heightened our interest. You've you've got to be thinking at this stage, I imagine, this guy's a pretty good suspect. Yeah, I think you can't rule out you're still you've still got an open mind, right? You haven't made the link. You haven't proven it yet. You've got to prove it beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law that he is the person who murdered Nick Martin.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

How do you go from this point where you've got somebody who is a a good suspect to starting to actually prove that process Well, I think the the the initial breakthrough for us, apart from his history, was when we were able to identify him on CCTV, the Motoplex. So um we had a we had a team specifically just reviewing CCTV. And the Motorplex had a pretty good CCTV system. It was very good coverage throughout the complex. So we were going through all of those CCTV cameras, looking, we'd been doing this throughout anyway, looking for anyone who might be a bit different or behaving suspiciously. So once we had uh we knew who this person was, then we could uh say, well, look for this guy. Uh and the guys on the CCTV found him. Um and we followed his movements throughout uh the complex. Uh, and we found that we could put him there on three different occasions.

SPEAKER_09 14:57

So he was scoping out and perhaps maybe planning based on Nick Martin's habits, where he was sitting, that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_03 15:05

Well, he yeah, his movements um would definitely suggest uh prior planning and um and surveillance uh in relation to one the motorplex, where cameras were, how he could get in and out of the motorplex, but also where Nick Martin normally sits, and unfortunately was a bit of a creature of habit. Um so I think he pretty well knew where he was going to be sitting from, so it was just a matter of identifying where he was gonna shoot from. Um at this period of time, we didn't have all of the shooters' phones that we had later in the investigation because they were all covert phones and in different names and had all sorts of uh different technology applied to them. So it was just literally mapping all our CCTV and then, as Greg said previously, then move him back out. Well, where does he live? We got him here, where did he go in between, and start tracking routes and and filling filling in the uh filling in the gaps between his travel um everywhere.

SPEAKER_09 16:05

What about the shoe print? You mentioned the shoe print last week. Was there a Cinderella moment? Did did was he wearing the shoes you thought he might have been wearing in those CCC? Yeah, where he was. Yeah, we were pretty confident they were the same brand, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

That was that was really, really good because he actually wore the same clothing on all three nights. We managed to put him in the in the motorplex, same shoes, same clothing. So and that obviously that the shoes he was wearing matched the the type of footwear that we were looking at from the shoe impression.

SPEAKER_09 16:36

Gentlemen, I have been waiting a very long time to ask this question publicly. How on earth did a packet of beef jerky help you catch a killer?

SPEAKER_03 16:49

Ferdinand you want to answer that way.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

Well, look, yeah, it it's all about the detail. Okay, so our job is to um to gather all the evidence that we can to support a prosecution. So the beef jerky is just something that the CCTV guys picked up, uh, that he had this in his pocket. We weren't sure what it was, but it looked like beef jerky. So we backtracked him as we Gary was just talking about, and we found he'd visited a service station uh nearby, just before one of his visits to the motorplex, and he'd actually bought the um packet of um beef jerky. So we had then close-up vision of him making that purchase, and that packet of beef jerky was in his pocket when he was walking around the because of the C subtexture. So the difference is in this case he's not disguised. When he's walking around the motorplex, he's got a hat on, often had a hoodie. Um, so it was much more difficult to try and identify him. Whereas we had really good vision up close of him buying that beef jerky at the service station. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 17:56

Anything, and and I imagine potentially not just that. So maybe was there anything in terms of tattoos or consistent identifying the bits you could see at the motorplex?

SPEAKER_02 18:04

Yeah, he had very significant um tattoos, which were difficult to make out um at the motorplex, um, but much more obvious in a close-up video of someone purchasing uh an item at the counter of a shop. So uh that helped us.

SPEAKER_03 18:21

We even had him going through uh McDonald's drive-thru, didn't we? And then and leaning through the window and had all his tattoos exposed and everything on the CC Tove from the McDonald's drive-thru. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:31

So this is all part of the efforts you have to go to prove identity. Okay, and this is what we're after then. So it's not just being able to say, okay, we have a person walking around the motorplex. We need to be able to prove who that person is. So that's the extent that we were going to do that.

SPEAKER_08 18:49

So, what kind of lengths did um the shooter go to to um disguise himself?

SPEAKER_02 18:55

Well, electronic communication is is a very significant part of any investigation now. So he had uh four different mobile phones, ten different SIM cards, almost all of those in different names. Um, and the people, the names he'd chosen were all people that he'd been associated with in the past. So that was really useful for us because that added to our capacity to identify who he was. How did these people know him, what was his connection to them. Um so they were these weren't random people, they were people he had knowledge of. Um, and he used their identities to purchase cards, phones, other things.

SPEAKER_08 19:35

But ultimately it comes back to um certain things that he's done that you've viewed through CCTV, like the tattoos and the beef jerky, that those kind of things place him uh in that location.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

Well, his telephone uh movements place him in the motorplex at the same time as CCTV does. So we were able to track him reasonably closely. Um there's some limits in relation to um the technology when it comes to phones, but his movement of his those phones that we could associate with him, uh we could also associate with the movements of that person in the complex.

SPEAKER_09 20:11

The big one in and I'm no homicide detective clearly, but in every murder mystery is the motive. And in this instance the motive is something that we want to talk about next week. It's it's got something to do with David Pye. It's got something to do, obviously, with the link with the shooter. Um I think we can we can leave it there if we can, gentlemen, and we'll get into that because it it's a it's a doozy um and it requires some explanation as well. Thank you very much for coming on the pod again this week. No problem at all. Is this Operation Podcast? Imagine for a moment you're a police officer in the West Australia Police Force working in the mining town of Port Headland. You get told someone armed with a knife may be running around the local shopping center. Suddenly you see a man in high viz work clothing running directly towards you at speed. What would you do? What should you do? This isn't a hypothetical. It's the real life situation acting senior sergeant Mike Little and his partner found themselves confronted with in 2020 in the South Headland Shopping Center. Mike, thanks for coming on the pod. Thanks very much for having me, Joey.

SPEAKER_08 21:24

Mike, it's been roughly six years since you found yourself in that situation that every officer hopes they will never find themselves in uh throughout their career.

SPEAKER_06 21:34

And despite the passage of time, this scenario is really relevant right now. And that's why we're very grateful you agreed to come on today.

SPEAKER_08 21:41

That's right. We have a heightened terrorism threat level uh in Australia at the moment, and we've seen similar knife attacks in the years since 2020, and most recently several terrorism incidents uh attack or attacks around Australia.

SPEAKER_06 21:54

We have officers here in WA openly carrying assault rifles in public places because of. That heightened risk.

SPEAKER_09 22:01

And Mike, your response in that South Headland shopping centre, both you and your partner, it kept the community safe, but also I think it's a good one to give our listeners a better understanding of when police officers do or don't use their sidearm. Firstly, Mike, if we could go back to 2020, how did you become aware that there may have been someone armed with a knife in the shopping centre?

SPEAKER_07 22:23

Yeah, so um in May 2020, I was working in South Headland as a supervisor at the police station. Um, most of my day-to-day roles at the time would have been more administrative in the office, um, doing the what we would call a controller command desk uh for the Pilbara region. Um, but on the first of May, I had the opportunity to be out on the road. Um, so I was very excited with that. Um, I know my wife at the time was actually saying the night before um that day that being the first of May, the excitement in the house was palpable because I was going to be out on the road and out with the community that day. Um so yeah, on the first of May, um, commenced shift like uh a lot of the officers do every day. We we get kitted up, check our equipment, and we're basically out on the road being visible in the community. Um, so the first task for us that day was to do a patrol through the South Headland Square shopping centre. Wow. Um the South Headland Square shopping centre for for the for the size of the town, it is quite large. There's a few stores in there. Um so we found ourselves in Kmart of all places, um, conducting inquiries and speaking with one of the managers there about one of the crime files that we had. Um, I suppose one of the investigations that we had ongoing for the shopping centre. Um it was while talking to that manager that both me and my colleague Michelle first became aware that there was something, something wrong. Um the radio chatter um on our police radios be began picking up. And I know that Michelle was listening into those radio transmissions. Um, I was still trying to maintain my conversation with the the shop the shop manager. Um but it became apparent that these radio transmissions were sort of increasing in frequency, and and that you could feel that the tone was maybe getting more and more serious as to this there's something going on. Um as I looked towards Michelle to try and get a grasp on what was going on that on with the radio, um we suddenly heard screams coming from outside the shops from where we were standing at Kmart. And as we went to investigate that, we were um confronted with with a male who was carrying a knife and um was causing a lot of fear in the shopping centre. We could we could sense that straight away.

SPEAKER_09 24:55

I I think it's important, Mike, at this point to just ask you before we talk about the actual confrontation. What didn't you know in the moments before this man came at you? And and what did we learn later about his prior actions?

SPEAKER_07 25:16

Um I suppose we'll with hindsight now we we know a lot more information than certainly we did at the time. Um since that passage of time, we we've had a full coronal inquest in into the um into the circumstances surrounding the the death of Ashley Dean Fowts, who who was the the person armed with the knife that day. Um we've we've discovered since then that you know it fell into the realms of what we would describe as being an active arm defender incident. Yes. Um a person armed with a weapon who's either causing injury to others. Um so transpired that prior to the screaming that I suppose me and Michelle heard and the radio transmissions informing us of something, that there had been a number of people stabbed um at the Lodge Motel, which is a nearby um hotel to the shopping centre, and also in the car parking street area immediately outside the shopping centre. So I think it it transpired that um six people in total were were were stabbed that day. Including a I think a a mother who was holding a baby. Which was tragic. And as w as we look back now with the knowledge that we have, we realize that she was actually the screams that myself and Michelle heard as we were walking or exiting Kmart and looking towards that direction. It became apparent, yeah, she was the mother with the baby. Um, thankfully, I believe the baby wasn't injured. Um and she survived. The mother survived, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 26:49

Thankfully. Yeah. But you didn't know any of this in that moment, Mike. Nothing. No, you'd heard screams, you'd heard chatter, you see a man with a knife. Can you describe what happens next? What where the confrontation goes?

SPEAKER_07 27:05

Um, as I'm sure you can imagine, shopping centres can become quite lively places. Um, we're used to going into shopping centres and the the hustle and bustle and the excitement and maybe teenagers making noise and things like that. So the initial screams were, you know, it wasn't immediately apparent that there was something um completely wrong at that stage. It could have just been the sounds of a disturbance or excitement or something like that. I suppose when we exited the store and began to tune in more to the screams, it it became apparent that, you know, that there's something really wrong here. Um that's when we saw Ashley walk in, when I say Ashley, Ashley Files walk in, um, through the shopping centre towards us with intent, while it just appeared that everyone else was sort of stopped in their tracks, was shocked at whatever was happening immediately before we we got there. Um Michelle, my partner on the day called on Ashley to stop, which then got my train of fault that something's happened, he's involved, and we're now calling upon him to stop. Um Michelle, I believe, has pieced together probably some of the information on the radio transmissions and has brought all that into it. Um and as Michelle calls upon him to stop, he looks at us, at which point we're wearing high viz, police clothing, easily recognizable at that point as police officers in the shopping centre. Um, but as he looks at us, he sort of runs to runs to get away from us, really. And and that to me sort of smends my view that he's done something wrong. People here are crying in despair. Um, and he's now not caught not stopping when called upon to do so. So we give chase. Um, and at that point, that's when I personally see a large knife in his hands, and it's becoming all too real now. That the screams, him armed with a weapon, and now running from police and the radio chatter that was increasing before this is all adding up together now to be quite a scary scenario we're we're facing. That's yeah, extremely what happens then? Um as we're calling upon Ashley to stop, he he doesn't he keeps running through the shopping centre. And the shopping centre at South Headland is designed in sort of um a sort of cross layout, in that you have a main sort of concourse or main sort of um, shall we say, area in the middle, and then there's wings that come off it in each direction um where the shops are located. Um so as she's now running towards what what I would describe as the as the main part of the shopping centre, that the where you've got the the large supermarkets and the the coffee shops and where the lot of people would gather around. Um as she's running towards there, it's becoming apparent or it has become apparent at that stage that he he's not complying with our requests and he's he's out to hurt people today. That that's the feeling being armed with that weapon in a shopping centre and not complying with police directions and then the screaming on top of that from people present. Um so given that communication with him is failing, um, we're giving foot chase to him. Um at that point, I go for accoutrement, so I draw taser. Yep. Um, so taser weapon, um, and I fire off taser cartridge um towards Ashley. Um, but unfortunately it's ineffective. Um so taser thrust is uh is designed as a less lethal option.

SPEAKER_09 30:49

Of course, and there's lots of reasons why they don't sometimes work. Yeah, there's a whole host of them. Um in this instance it didn't.

SPEAKER_07 30:57

It didn't. It didn't. And despite a reload and try again, um, it still still didn't work. Um and I think at that point um Michelle's also drawn taser, but given the speed at which we're now running through the shopping centre, we've reached that main sort of concourse area. That that that main area of the shopping centre. And um as Michelle's tried to use her taser device, um Ashley's turned and then turned to face us. Um so he's initially confronted with Michelle, and that's when he lunges for her with with the with the knife, and she was very, very lucky um not to be injured, but we didn't know that at the time necessarily. Um I've from from my view saw Ashley lunge at Michelle with that knife and Michelle go down onto the ground.

SPEAKER_05 31:58

Oof.

SPEAKER_07 31:58

Yeah. What are you what are you thinking and feeling in that moment, Jeez? Um, yeah, uh I honestly thought the worst for Michelle in that she's she's been injured. This this is very, very bad now. Um so I've drawn my firearm um being pretty much a last resort at that point. Um drawn my firearm and call in to call in on the male to stop. Stop. Um and at that point he starts coming towards me, which as bad as it sounds, I'm glad that he's now coming towards me. It's taken the attention away from maybe other people in the shopping centre, members of the public. Um it's now in a situation that hopefully if I can talk to him, if I can get through to him, we can de-escalate this, we can get this right down. Um so yeah, he's actually come towards me, but unfortunately, there's just this blank, violent stare in his eyes, and I'm trying to talk to him, I'm trying to calm things down, um, telling him ultimately drop the knife, drop the knife. Um but he unfortunately he's not listening. Um I'm trying to increase distance between us in that. I'm trying to try and increase that gap for my safety and to see if we can continue negotiating with him. Um, but unfortunately, I don't have very many places to go, and there's still quite a lot of people around. There's a risk to the community, 100%. Not just yourself, to the community, yeah. Um at the moment he's got his attention on me. I'm glad I want to keep that attention on me. I've got I say accoutrements and kit that I can protect myself with. Yes. Members of the public don't have that, so we want to try and keep that attention on us. Um and yeah, as he's coming towards me, um, unfortunately, that knife that he's holding in his hand, it starts to rise up again. And when I say rise up, he's lifting it above his shoulder. Um, almost in what I describe as like a charging action. Um, and it's exactly the same action as what I saw him do to Michelle immediately before he tried to stab her. Um, but my options are pretty much all out at that point. Yeah, I think I'm gonna be next, like like Michelle. Um, so unfortunately, yeah, I have to discharge my firearm.

SPEAKER_09 34:42

Um I think you showed incre anyone who had any familiarity with that moment, you showed incredible restraint and did everything that you could have done to de-escalate that situation and absolutely to be commended. Um after the Ashley, the armed offender in this instance, after you know you had no choice but to shoot him. Seconds later, you are literally by his side helping him, providing um consoling him, providing medical attention. How do you go from having somebody who's trying to kill you one moment and then not taking that personally at all and then trying to save their life the next?

SPEAKER_07 35:32

Yeah. I've I think it comes with experience, but it it definitely um comes with experience in in doing police and work. Um I think m most days we're we're out there as police officers. We we could be arresting anybody. Um moments after arrest, that that person's entrusted into our care. Um we have to look after that person. We we've got a duty of care towards them once once we take away their rights. That now transfers on to us that we we will look after them. Um as develop uh I think as police officers, you develop a pretty thick skin. I feel like this uniform can take a lot of abuse. Um we we develop that thick skin. I think if you look at the the day-to-day jobs that we go to and um the abuse that we can receive, I I believe most of it's directed at the uniform. It's it's not directed at the person. Um you're probably encountering someone who's in all likelihood experiencing the worst day of their life. You know, that day. So you're you're experiencing that person on what is the worst day, and you can probably guarantee you're not going to get the best of manners from them. Um, with what happened actually that day. 100% what was minutes prior to the shooting, or a minute prior to the shooting being my biggest threat, is now my most vulnerable person, a person who is now unfortunately losing their life yet. This is is needing help.

SPEAKER_09 37:04

This um this all happened years before the tragic events at Bondi, where we saw in 2024, where we saw six people killed by an active armed defender, a man with the knife. But there are some similarities, and I think probably the biggest one that stands out is mental health. Ashley was a as a FIFO worker which is fly in, fly out for those who don't um work in Western Australia. Um, Nate, if workmates see a difference in their colleagues, if they notice that there's something maybe not right or they're exhibiting kind of unusual or concerning behavior, can they get in touch with police?

SPEAKER_08 37:44

Definitely. Yeah, they can call police. Um they can also reach out to a number of support services, uh, including the mental health emergency response line. And they have um they have caseworkers and counselors and all sorts of people who are qualified to to intervene in that space. But importantly, uh, is saying something early and trying to connect that person with with help.

SPEAKER_09 38:06

Yeah. And look, it's it's impossible. We don't, as the boss always says, the commission says, we don't have a crystal ball. We don't know. You don't know who knew what and when and who saw what, but but we always hope that with these tragic, sad stories, that there's an opportunity for other people who are listening to to learn from it and maybe so that we we collectively can maybe you know catch these things in the nick of time next time. And certainly, I know that there are a lot of people harmed in that attack that that you know and obviously had a big impact on the community and on yourself and and on Michelle as well. The man with the knife, though, Ashley, he had family and he had loved ones, and they were left hurting too. You you've actually met them, Mike. Um, from all accounts, they are lovely people, uh, a really lovely family. Do you think that they would advocate for speaking up if maybe you noticed someone in your life acting a bit differently or concerningly?

SPEAKER_07 39:01

Yeah, 100%. Um a few years ago we we had the coronial inquest um for Ashley, um, which is the the coroner's process for examining all the facts of the case and and how Ashley ended up to pass away that day. Um Ashley's parents are lovely, lovely people. I had the privilege of spending those few days and hearing about their son. Um there were victims that day, a lot of victims and a lot of people that that have been scarred, not just physically but emotionally by what happened on that day. Of course. But I believe it's important to remember that that day was not Ashley. Um that day was a person suffering a mental health crisis that just deteriorated to a point of way beyond what I can comprehend. Um Ashley's parents are the most loveliest people, and we've shared a lot of hugs over those few days at the inquest. But what they would tell you is that Ashley was the most loving, caring, devoted father, husband, and son. Um with hindsight, um, there might have been warning signs, but ultimately um the events that happened that day just couldn't have been foreseen. Ashley was not a violent person. He was not an aggressive person. There was nothing in this history to suggest that anything like this was likely. It was a person who I believe had been diagnosed um with a mental health illness, and unfortunately did didn't engage with with the um with the services as as would be ideal in terms of taking medication and do it doing all of that. Um his parents were absolutely as you can imagine, devastated.

SPEAKER_09 40:52

Of course, absolutely, understandably. Yeah, and as as we've said, no, no crystal ball here, and certainly no no judgment, um, just an opportunity. Again, maybe if someone is acting a bit differently, or if you're not feeling great, there are places you can go to go to get help as well, Maya. I I believe.

SPEAKER_06 41:09

Yeah, so there's definitely places that you can go to get help. Lifeline is always available, and you can call 13114.

SPEAKER_09 41:18

Mike, um police officers are trained to respond to these types of critical incidents. And I think it's good to reassure the community about that that training. Did it help you in that moment when you were confronted with Ashley coming at you with the knife?

SPEAKER_07 41:36

100%, yeah. Um, police officers I believe are quite rigorously trained whenever we're being entrusted with the equipment that we carry, we need to be. Um, I suppose that that training for us starts at day one at the Academy. Um obviously passing through the safety and tactical training that we do at the academy, but then the continuous training that goes on every year, so we to carry accoutrements on our belt and to operate that operate those items, that's where we need to prove our competency. Um so we have quite a few assessments in in that, and then we re-qualify once a year. So even though I've had the privilege of working out in regional and remote areas for for about 10 years in Western Australia, we still do that annual training that's still carried out um in the regions. Um that training is is try to be as realistic as possible. Um, and that's certainly something in my toolbox that day that I had was that training and knowledge and that that confidence um in my abilities and the abilities of my equipment.

SPEAKER_09 42:46

Yeah. When when can you pull the trigger? When should you in in this instance be using, as we say, the ultimate use of force?

SPEAKER_07 42:54

It's it's pretty much a last resort. It's a last resort for all officers. There is a framework there that we work upon, um, and it's pretty much if if there's a risk of bodily harm or death. So we're right at the top end. If there's a risk of those things happening to any person, that then we can make that ultimate decision. But that ultimate decision lies with that officer pulling that trigger. That has to be something that's obviously a decision is made, a conscious decision made to shoot. And that is right at that top end of the use of force. Um, thankfully, it doesn't happen very often at all. Um, but when it does, it's it's that sort of final, final option. Everything else has been exhausted from tactical communications to law force options, right up to taser. All those things have to be considered and discounted as not being effective in that situation.

SPEAKER_09 43:48

And it's pretty much And Mike, safe to say that may have been one of the hardest decisions you've ever had to make.

SPEAKER_07 43:56

Yep. Yep, it it has to be. To be a decision that it's not taken lightly. Um, has to be a decision that you you have to justify, you you you have to be able to stand over that and have the confidence to say there was nothing else I could have done.

SPEAKER_09 44:12

And um and and look as there are so many uh things that follow on from a critical incident like this um where that use of force has been applied. Can you talk us through it's it's a difficult process, I I understand, a very difficult process, and there's a lot obviously going on legally, emotionally, in terms of procedure. What happens after for anybody who's listening from our blue family or anyone who's aspiring to be a police officer? What happens after in terms of what you have to go through and also the supports?

SPEAKER_07 44:45

Yeah. So there has to be an investigation. We we understand that, and uh, has to be a full investigation. Um you understand that for from day one. Um, there's a family out there seeking answers as to what's happened. Um, and we need to make sure that uh that investigation leaves no stone uncovered. Um as a police officer involved in that critical incident, you you you submit yourself to that investigation and you give everything that you possibly can. Um so from I suppose day day one, um there's um there's a lot of things going on. There's a lot of hub, but um, there's a lot of things going on, as I say, that that it feels like um a lot of investigators will turn up at the local police station, um, from range from internal affairs to major crime division, and they will commence their investigation. Um, luckily for for me that day, I believe we we had the body worn camera and we were wearing that that day, which can provide a lot of vital information to investigators from the very start. So I believe that before investigators even left the ground here in Perth to get on that plane, they had already watched that vision and were able to see some critical information surrounding the events that had happened that day. Um as that progresses, that there's obviously information that you you need to provide to investigators. Um, and that involves sitting down with with them and those officers and explaining what what happened in your mind. Um, you have support through that process, uh, through the Western Australian Police Union, but also through your superiors at the station. Had a really good officer in charge with um now um Inspector Jeremy Markle. Um great guy. Yeah, yeah. So um, but right up to the district superintendent Kim Massum, um to regional WA in headquarters here with Commander Brad Sorrel. Um you've got, yeah, you've you've got a lot of people looking out for you uh at that point and trying to make sure that you have everything that you need. Um, with the then Commissioner Chris Dawson and then then Deputy Commissioner Colblanche coming up to visit you in person. Um and I believe even looking after me and my family and yes, chaplains. So I chaplains were there day one um with with the police union. That there's a there's a whole entourage that that comes in to wrap around you and to make sure that you have everything you need. Um, not only you, but also your family. Um my wife with um we were both living in in Headland when when when that happened. So the wraparound isn't just for you, it's for your family. Um lucky enough as well that we were flawed into Perth to give us some respite to get out of that town in the immediate aftermath, um, to allow the vest investigation to proceed with, you know, obviously um to allow what needs to happen to happen, but also allows us to get some respite. So we came down and we were able to avail of counselling services and just a bit of respite and then gradually get back onto the the firing range here at in in Perth to make sure we were still comfortable, obviously, with the equipment that we carry and everything else. Um, the process isn't going to be quick, it's gonna be drawn out, it's it's going to be, and you know, it it has to be that there's obviously a number of um investigations and reports that need to be generated and ultimately um information sought from subject matter experts regarding every aspect of of what happened that day. Um and that's it it will drag out, it will it will go into those months and years. Um we for this um matter saw a coronial inquest occur three years after after after the date of the incident. But during that time and throughout that time, you you have the support that you need, you have those support networks in place. Um we still check in regularly with with um a psychiatrist from the police um psychology unit, and you you have that support through through the police union and uh also through the officers investig investigating the matter at hand.

SPEAKER_09 49:07

The the coronial inquest and and uh basically those shared moments with with Ashley's family, uh was that sort of the to some extent the closure that you needed or it's i it's as close as you're going to get to it.

SPEAKER_07 49:24

I I I don't believe I'll ever get to the point where I've now got closure. I I don't believe that it's it's something that's gonna profoundly affect me probably for for the rest of my life and uh the effect that it that it will have on Ashley's parents, Ashley's ex-wife, and and Ashley's daughter is just going to be unknown for years to come. You know, it uh it was the best uh possible way for for us to try and reconcile with with the family over the the tragic events that happened that day. Um it was lovely to meet them in person and to to be able to explain to them in person that we did absolutely everything we could um to try and prevent what ultimately happened from happening and it was great to um receive their understanding. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_09 50:19

Mike, um on a personal note, I I was actually there in my former life as a as a crime reporter, and um I and certainly have had these conversations with many serving police officers. I I think it goes without saying that you saved I'm gonna say it anyway, you saved many, many lives through your actions that day, and it's a heavy burden that you've taken on. But thank you so much for your service protecting our community and everybody respects you and loves you within the agency in this blue family, and and uh everyone's got nothing but praise to say about you and the great job that you still do. So thank you so much, mate. And I really do think that and hope people at home who are listening understand just how seriously you take this responsibility of of all of you of protecting our community. Thank you very much, Mike. Thank you. Thank you for your kind words.

SPEAKER_08 51:11

This is Operation Podcast. You're listening to Operation Podcast. Joining us once again, Commissioner Cole Blanche, a man who knows from experience that a quick question is never quick and it's rarely just one. Sir, welcome back.

SPEAKER_05 51:35

Thank you. Good to be here.

SPEAKER_08 51:36

Speaking of it never being just one, you were front and center recently promoting a charity sausage sizzle. How did that go?

SPEAKER_05 51:44

Fantastic. It was great to be part of. It was uh for the Lions Club, and obviously it was down in my favorite place, which is Bunnings.

SPEAKER_09 51:51

A hardware store for the uninitiated.

SPEAKER_05 51:53

So it was yeah, correct. It was a great cause. Um, it was to help people um with their mental health, and certainly it was an opportunity for people to talk through those issues. But I think uh we would all agree Bunnings itself is a good weekend therapy session for many of us, including me.

SPEAKER_08 52:09

Oh, that's it, that's amazing. It's a great cause. And look, one of our uh listeners has actually emailed in Linda, and she's actually asked for yourself with the Bunnings snag or the the sausage for those that aren't aware of what a snag is, roll or bread.

SPEAKER_05 52:25

Look, and uh this is I know extremely controversial, but hear me out. I come from the era where you had to eat it in a piece of bread. Like a bun, to be honest, for me is too American. I'm old school, piece of bread and a sausage. Now I know modern day people might look at me a bit strange. I know bunnings is institutionally a bun, but it's not over East. It's a piece of bread. So I'm sticking with it. Uh I'm going to introduce it to Western Australia.

SPEAKER_09 52:56

Boss, it's not called breadings. It's called Bunnings for a reason.

SPEAKER_08 53:00

You're going to start a real bun fight here, aren't you? Okay. All right. Let's move on.

SPEAKER_09 53:05

Let's move on. It's hard to tell.

SPEAKER_06 53:08

Um, our next question comes from Lucas, who's 18. And it is how often do police officers have night shifts? And how do police officers handle shift work, particularly night shifts, while trying to balance their personal life and well-being?

SPEAKER_05 53:20

That's a great question from Lucas. And uh, not all police work night shift, but most police, when they first join, will almost certainly be working a night shift. And a typical pattern might be two days, two afternoons, and two nights, and rotating through those after periods of days off. So it can be quite tough. It can be quite tough. And it it's probably the best time of your life to do it when you're young and you're new, and it's exciting. And uh you learn, and I I did it, and we um before we got into those rotating patterns, we used to do nine nights of night shift. So there were long periods of night shift when I did it, and which was probably not good for your health. But um, you learned how to listen out for people maybe committing crime. You used to identify criminals doing the wrong thing at night, and I think it taught taught you some really good skills, but it does catch up with you after a while. And I really do applaud those officers that are still doing it well into their long careers. Um, some people do adapt to it quite well and do like it, but I think on the whole, humans just aren't designed to work through the night on a regular basis. So it is about the balance, like Lucas has asked. Um, those days off, it's really important to get back into a normal sleeping pattern to get on your days. So it takes a bit of discipline to learn to do that. And you don't want to do that through taking medication or anything else to help you sleep. You know, you want to try to do that as naturally as possible. And I always say to young people, get into that pattern of normalizing your shift really, really early.

SPEAKER_09 54:48

Um, boss, just quickly, Nate, you you've worked in Metro even recently. Is it almost a sort of uh four days on, four days off kind of situation sometimes with some of the rosters?

SPEAKER_08 55:00

Yes, it is. Yes.

SPEAKER_09 55:01

So not just firemen, police officers too.

SPEAKER_08 55:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 55:04

Four days on, four days off.

SPEAKER_08 55:05

And some of those pretty cool some of those days fall on on a weekday, so that's quite beneficial in terms of if you want to go to the shops and there's no one around because everyone else is at work. That's quite that's quite handy. Um, and you know, you can plan your social life that some of the rosters are posted well in advance up to six weeks. So you can plan your social life around that.

SPEAKER_09 55:23

Still, no doubt, a very tough job. And you know, not everyone, not everyone uh goes to these places at these times. Police do. They do get compensated for it. There are some shift penalties, but a tough gig and very thankful that people are they're doing it.

SPEAKER_05 55:38

I think when you're young and you have no partner and you have no kids and you have no mortgage, night shift can be the best time of your life. And I look very fondly on it. When you've got four kids and a partner that works as hard as you do, and a mortgage and and lots of life stresses, it it can become challenging. But lots and lots of police do it, do it well, do it successfully. Um, but there are places to work in the police force that gives you that respite. So you're not stuck doing night shifts forever. Um, but it is certainly a part of policing to work shift work.

SPEAKER_06 56:11

Absolutely. Um, the next question we have here is we've got the world police and fire games next year. What are you most excited to watch?

SPEAKER_05 56:19

Well, I'm always up for a bit of healthy competition. And I would say that uh us and firefighters always have a healthy competition between the two. So, what I'm probably asking our police force is to enter all the firefighter dominant events and win them spectacularly is uh is would would satisfy me significantly. And I could speak to the fire commissioner Darren Clem and boast how great our police officers are, which he would do the same, by the way. And uh I think that creates good camaraderie between the two services, and we know the ambulance are in there as well with corrections. Um, but we do know that the firefighters have the benefits of sleeping during their shifts where we have to be out there working. And I know they work hard, but you know, you can't help ribbing our fellow colleagues who do um work on the front line like we do. They are hard workers, we love our firefighters, and I've I've got a few in my family, so um, I'm always giving them a hard time as well.

SPEAKER_09 57:15

Yeah, I mean they're very um they're very engaged when it comes to a calendar.

SPEAKER_05 57:21

Um just yeah, that's every every time I walk into a fire station, it's like the Taj Mahal of beds and and and restaurants. It's fantastic. I love it. They're not gonna deny all that, of course. And um I've got to say, if you ever go to a fire as a police officer, I do look on in awe at their skills. Yeah, it's incredible at uh running into fires and what they how they know how to combat fires is extremely impressive. They are trained so well, and uh I think our relationship with fire has always been fantastic and always will be.

unknown 57:52

Perfect.

SPEAKER_06 57:53

Um, our next question is what inspired you to become a police officer?

SPEAKER_05 57:57

And you know, I hear a lot of people and ask their reasons, I speak to a lot of people and ask their reasons as to why people join police. And it's wide and varied. And often people say, just, I would like to help. I like to help people, I like the adventure. Um, my true reason, and I was quite young when I joined, I was I was still in my teens, but I I genuinely was young enough not to think too far ahead. And it was all about going on an adventure. It sounded like a fun job. I was out there amongst the community, I got to lock up bad guys, you know, I got to to experience different parts of the state, different, different jobs, and it it fit exactly who I wanted to be in my life, and I loved every moment of it. Have I had some hard days, and many police do? Absolutely, of course. There's really tough parts to this job, but I reflect on my career. I love it. I love it, I loved every moment of it. And I I still look to young people who join today, young and new people, and I and I'm I'm proud of them. I'm proud of them stepping up and joining the police force. And it gives me goosebumps to go to our graduations knowing that they've got that life ahead of them. Why did you join, Nate?

SPEAKER_08 59:04

It was a similar reason um to the commissioner. I I was I've always wanted to do it. I applied quite early on before we had the cadet program and um and and and uh yeah, I I was told to go away and get some life experience. So I did that. I went and got a trade and I reapplied in my shipbuilding. Yes, shipbuilding.

SPEAKER_09 59:23

And then you sold jet skis, didn't you?

SPEAKER_08 59:25

I did, yeah. So if you you need advice on any uh watercraft, I'm I'm your man. Um but yeah, I reapplied in my 20s and and got in. Um and uh I'm I'm glad I did. But I think, yeah, my my my sort of my intentions were uh yeah, similar thing. I I wanted to help and uh and I wanted uh something different, and I certainly got that and and more.

SPEAKER_05 59:46

You know, I reflect also on um what's important in this job. And whilst some police officers will be going from difficult job to difficult job, when members of the public walk up to you and say, Thank you for doing what you do, it's a moment of reflection for all police officers to know that most of our community are in fact good people who appreciate the police and as much as we appreciate our community because they really do look after us. And it's always that sort of moment in the day where you go, Oh, I'm I'm I'm I know why I'm doing this. And I always ask uh members of the public, if you see police out there and you are a fan of police, uh, because not everyone is, but but go up and and and say thanks or just have a chat to them because they're they're mums, dads, brothers and sisters, sons and daughters, and they're just people like the rest of our community.

SPEAKER_09 1:00:35

Well, if you're interested in joining up, uh if you're a jet ski salesman who's tired of selling jet skis, or a shipbuilder, or a teenager who's looking for adventure.

SPEAKER_08 1:00:45

You can go to let'sjoin forces.wa.gov.au.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:50

And the final question is what is your vision for the police force over the next five to ten years?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:56

Look, it's an easy one, and you know, it's hard to have a crystal ball about what's happening in the next five to ten years, but I'd say two main things, and that is we want to make sure our police are enjoying being police officers and stay as long as possible. So I think their benefits and entitlements and their longevity in staying as a police officer is going to be critical to make sure we've got a police off uh police organization that serves its community well into the future. And I've already asked for things from the federal government in particular, like mortgage repayment relief andor uh co-contribution superannuation entitlements, just so when they when it comes time to retire, that you've got that nested and you've served our community with pride and with duty, and it it's worthwhile retiring with something you can look forward to doing. So I think that's really important to look after our people. And the second part is to embrace artificial intelligence, to embrace technology, because the amount of data we consume as a police force is well beyond human capabilities. And we want to make sure when we respond to our community and keep them safe, that we use the best available information to do that well, and we can keep our community as safe as possible. So we will invest heavily in adopting technology and not just adopting, but giving it giving it to our police officers so they can use it the most effective way when it's time critical.

SPEAKER_09 1:02:20

And when we just heard um a little bit earlier on the podcast, boss, that um during Operation Ravello, they had an estimated they they estimated that the amount of CCTV alone that they gathered would have taken a single person 30 years to go through. And obviously, you know, when when time is critical and lives are on the line, anything that can speed up that process for your officers could actually be in the difference between someone being kept safe or seriously harmed in our community. And that's what AI is really. It's another tool in the tool chest.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:52

And I think that's the importance of this conversation because we don't want our community to fear our use of technology and capability. We want to be transparent about its use and how we are using it. And it's a conversation that doesn't stop. We always have it with our community. But the real answer to why do you need to use it is because it puts people at greater harm if we can't understand that information, because we won't be able to arrest those people causing harm to others. We won't be able to identify a risk when it becomes so great that it's definitely going to cause harm because we can't absorb and analyse that amount of information. So if we don't do it, we're actually not doing our service to our community.

SPEAKER_08 1:03:34

Excellent. Thank you so much for joining us once again, Commissioner. Uh, we'll check in with you next week. Uh, if you have a question for the Commissioner or for the WA police in general, you can submit it to operation.podcast at police.wa.gov.au.

SPEAKER_09 1:03:50

And on that note, for all those who have submitted questions, we've got something for you.

SPEAKER_08 1:03:54

We're closing out our segment with our talented police pipe band with You're the Voice by John Farnum.

SPEAKER_09 1:04:00

Thanks very much for submitting your questions. This one's for you.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:03

Operation Podcast.

SPEAKER_08 1:04:12

You're listening to Operation Podcast. Well, we're joined once again by fellow colleague, media liaison officer Claire Sienta, senior media liaison officer, I should add.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:22

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_08 1:04:24

Welcome back. What's been happening uh around the news?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:26

Well, a really major story this week has been down in Albany in the Great Southern. It's actually in Spencer Park, so a suburb of Albany. A little while ago, there was a 69-year-old woman who was found murdered in her home. Um, and a second person was actually found with some really serious injuries. He has later died. But the new element of it, I suppose, this week is police down there in Albany. They've traveled down there, homicide squads have traveled. Um, and they're urging people in Spencer Park to check their backyards.

SPEAKER_09 1:04:58

Ooh, why? So this is double homicide.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:01

Correct. This is a double homicide. Um, and they're they're basically urging residents to check their front backyards, properties for anything that might have been used as the murder weapon, essentially. They've looked they've done extensive searches to find this themselves. Obviously, they need the public's help now to, yeah, scour through their backyards for something that might not normally be there. Um, and obviously ring police if you find anything.

SPEAKER_09 1:05:24

Okay. And we don't know, and we obviously we can't assume what that is. We don't know. And we're not gonna, we're not gonna guess. So anything that's out of the ordinary, out of place, that doesn't belong in your backyard potentially could help us solve a murder, a double murder.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:38

That's exactly right. And we we do know what we can say is that it wasn't a firearm and it wasn't an edged weapon. Okay. Um so something that of that nature that um, yeah, shouldn't shouldn't necessarily be in your backyard that you don't recognize. It could be um could be the key to helping detectives solve this case.

SPEAKER_08 1:05:55

If I may add, if you do find something, do not touch it, do not handle it, call police immediately. On 131444.

SPEAKER_09 1:06:02

That's very good advice, Nate. Claire, one last thing before you go. We've got a new segment coming up with you in the next couple of weeks, don't we?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:11

We sure do, yes.

SPEAKER_09 1:06:13

And what is it?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:14

We'll have some pretty special guests coming in, detectives and family members of people who've been missing for a long time.

SPEAKER_09 1:06:22

Well, cold case, missing peoples.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:25

That's exactly right. So cases that have never been solved, we don't have the answers to. Um, detectives are really keen to kind of get that public messaging out there to if if you know something about something that's happened a long time ago, um, it's never too late to give us a ring.

SPEAKER_09 1:06:40

I love the idea that people at home listening to this podcast may be uh able to help us find some of these missing peoples. This is amazing. I keep saying peoples instead of persons, but persons. Yes. Uh that's amazing.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:52

This is Operation Podcast.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:54

All units, the WA police force is looking for people who are big on community and solving true crime, not just watching it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:01

Ordinary people up for doing extraordinary things.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:04

Sound like you? Search Let's Join Forces.

SPEAKER_09 1:07:08

Well, thank you very much for listening to another episode of Operation Podcast. I want to say thank you quickly to everybody who was involved in that massive operation, Operation Ravello, uh, including um a couple of people who I've worked with quite closely over the years, John Modellini and Curtis Froh. Um, but seriously, everyone who was involved, that's getting really interesting. And next week we're going to go some really interesting places with it. And I I got, oh, geez, Mike. That was really heavy, and I just can't speak highly enough about the job that he did. And even coming on and talking about it so that potentially other other people, other people in the community don't have to go through what that family and he had to endure. Um, what a cool guy.

SPEAKER_08 1:07:52

It's the ultimate decision. Uh, I think that most officers never want to encounter in their career. Uh, but rest assured, as as Mike unpacked in that in that segment, there's there's a level of training and and a lot of options that were exhausted that day, and and he had no other option.

SPEAKER_09 1:08:11

No, definitely not.

SPEAKER_08 1:08:13

So hey, uh, we had a little bit of a history fact last week. Um, I did state that um there was a mystery explosion in the southwest way back in 1883. Turns out the mysterious booms and strange tidal surges that puzzled the southwest was later identified to have been caused by the devastating eruption of Krakatoa. Ah, the volcano. Yeah, in Indonesia.

SPEAKER_09 1:08:43

Wow. Yeah. That well, they did say it was loud.

SPEAKER_08 1:08:46

And is still regarded as the loudest known sound in history.

SPEAKER_09 1:08:50

There you go.

SPEAKER_08 1:08:52

That took them a long time to crack a toa, the case.

SPEAKER_09 1:08:56

Oh, clearly they've never heard uh some of the garage bands that uh Maya listens to. The cool ones, the loud sound band anyway. Sorry.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_09 1:09:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:08

Next week's teaser. Uh, you've heard of our mounted section and our canine unit, but did you know the WA police once had another animal squad? What was it? You'll have to listen next week's. Jump online to let'sjoinforces.wa.gov.au.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:36

And don't forget, if you have any questions you'd like to ask the commissioner or any advice at all, send them to operation.podcast at police.wa.gov.au.

SPEAKER_09 1:09:46

Not no relationship advice, but other other policing kind of advice, definitely. Yeah. Cool. All right. Well, um, another week and taking us out once again our magnificent WA police pike band with you're the voice, John Farnum. This is Operation Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:23

Operation Podcast was produced by Joe Garris, Danny Vandeveer, and Lisa Evans, sound editing by Joe and Danny, cover song by the WA Police Pipe Band, and Cheesy Podcast Theme Music by Joey Catanzaro. By the way, why just listen to a podcast about policing when you could actually be doing it? Let's join forces.wa.gov.au