Ep 12 Neo-Nazi Guns Seized, Cold Case Missing Persons - WA POLICE FORCE PODCAST

Episode - 12 of WA Police Confidential! The official WA Police Force Podcast.

On this week’s show:

- How Police found a Neo Nazi with access to firearms, right here in a Perth suburb. 

- Snake VS Cop. How officers in Kununurra caught a slithery suspect. 

- Our cold case series continues with a case from 2022

- All this and more!!!

Transcript

Speaker 11 0:00

This podcast discusses real life crimes and law enforcement matters. It may include detailed descriptions of criminal activity, traumatic incidents, and other content that could be confronting or distressing, particularly for victim survivors. Listener discretion is advised. If you find any of these topics upsetting, please consider whether this content is right for you and seek support if needed.

Speaker 2 0:29

Welcome back to WA Police Confidential, the official weekly podcast of the Western Australia Police Force.

Speaker 14 0:35

I'm Joey Katanzaro. I'm Sergeant Nate Gilmore, and this week we'll reveal how we discovered a neo-Nazi with access to firearms right here in a Perth suburb.

Speaker 2 0:44

And we do love a good cop versus outbackstory here in WA.

Speaker 14 0:47

For those that don't know, we are the world's largest policing jurisdiction. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 0:52

And we've come across some audio from a body worn camera of a snake, V Cop, in the Kimberley region. Spoiler alert, it's hilarious. You'll fang us later. Your dad jokes are on point today, mate.

Speaker 14 1:05

Thanks, Joey. Later on, our coal case missing person series continues.

Speaker 2 1:09

A 50-year-old father who disappeared on a hot summer's day here in Perth in 2022.

Speaker 14 1:14

Help us find him.

Speaker 2 1:15

This and more coming up.

Speaker 14 1:17

You're listening to WA Police Confidential.

Speaker 2 1:24

For anyone who is not aware, in Western Australia we've updated our antiquated firearms laws with an emphasis on community safety coming first. And as a result, we had a firearms buyback, and we're currently in the process of transfer or transitioning uh people from the old paper license onto a digital portal. I just want to take this opportunity to thank the majority of our firearms uh owners in Western Australia who've been really cooperative, they've been really patient, they've been great to work with, and we're going to talk today about somebody who does not fall into that category. We're going to talk about somebody who hasn't done the right thing. And this is why police take this so seriously and have to be so careful when it comes to uh firearms and and the uh the ownership of firearms in our community. We're joined today by Commander Lawrence Panaya. Laurie, thanks very much. Hi, welcome. Thank you, Joey. So, Laurie, I think in the intro what I said was we're going to tell you how we managed to find a neo-Nazi, we'll allege, who had access to firearms in our in our suburbs. How did this guy come onto your radar?

Speaker 13 2:32

Uh good question, Joey. Well, what we've done, and obviously as technology uh improves, um policing is no uh no different to anyone else in embracing that technology and making it work for us. We've got a program that we can run over our firearm license holders and actually look for key words, things like terrorist, things like Nazi, things like uh uh violent, any word we like.

Speaker 2 2:57

So kind of like an algorithm, an AI.

Speaker 13 2:59

It's an AI algorithm that'll overlook that whole database.

Speaker 2 3:02

Okay. So the algorithms it's it's sort of churning away in the background all the time, pretty much?

Speaker 13 3:10

Yeah, it does it every 24 hours.

Speaker 2 3:12

Wow. Okay. Is that is that kind of a bit of a world first, or certainly an Australian first, would you say?

Speaker 13 3:18

Well, I don't know if it's our a world first, but it's certainly uh it's new amongst the uh firearm community, put it that way. Uh we're the first in Australia that I know are running it over their firearms registry.

Speaker 2 3:29

And the 24 hours thing, I guess tell me if I'm wrong, but would would that be because circumstances can change? People can become radic radicalized, maybe somebody who uh 24 hours earlier was happily married suddenly in a family domestic violence situation.

Speaker 13 3:45

Yeah, correct, Joey. Uh what we do when we run it every 24 hours, we're looking for any change in the firearm license holder against any of our other systems. Um sometimes it'll it'll pick up um you changing an address, which is fine. We'll look at that and go, that's fine, we've got a change of address, that's really good. It'll pick up a firearm license holder and domestic violence. Sometimes we look at that and sometimes that person is either the victim or the offender. And but in both cases, the risk for that person increases by having firearms at that house. So there's action for us to take.

Speaker 2 4:18

Absolutely. Okay. So in this case, a neo-Nazi. Yeah. So what did the algorithm find? What was the discrepancy here?

Speaker 13 4:26

So if you remember, um SovSITS came to the fore quite quite uh heavily in the media. Oh, yes.

Speaker 14 4:33

Um sovereign citizens are people who have uh certain ideologies, uh anti-authority, don't recognise laws, um, you know, a recent example over East, um, that that sort of character.

Speaker 13 4:45

Yep, so we decided to have a look at that. Um, and of course, some of the associated words that go with that ideology, uh neo-Nazi and Nazi being one of them. And yes, it popped one out for us.

Speaker 2 4:56

Okay, can you tell us specifically about this individual?

Speaker 13 4:59

Yeah, so this individual has the the Nazi ideology, even has the number plate on his vehicle uh registered in in one of those slogans that the Nazis use. It's just a series of letters, but if you know what it means, you'd know what it means.

Speaker 14 5:11

Okay, yep.

Speaker 13 5:40

He'd applied for a license uh some time ago, um, which we knocked back, uh, but then he got a close associate to apply for the license, and that's the link we then found.

Speaker 2 5:50

Okay. So potentially a relative?

Speaker 13 5:54

Yeah, his son.

Speaker 2 5:55

Ah, okay. So he's been knocked back on the basis of we had some inkling that perhaps maybe he was um you know about.

Speaker 13 6:05

Well back then, yeah, and also his criminal record was quite extensive as well.

Speaker 2 6:09

Oh, okay, criminal record too. Okay, so the son gets firearms, firearm, firearms.

Speaker 13 6:14

Firearms, got four.

Speaker 2 6:15

Okay. When the algorithm detects that suddenly the son has after the dad's been knocked back, applied for and been successful in getting a fire firearms, what happens then? What's the process?

Speaker 13 6:29

So then I we put the file together. Obviously, we need um there is under the new act some really good legislation about uh your close associates and your way of living, and that also impacts your ability to hold a firearms license. So we put the file together and got the local drug and firearms squad guys to go up, have a look, seize those firearms, and we'll now do a fitness to hold on on the sun.

Speaker 2 6:53

Okay. I imagine it's pretty probably pretty nerve-wracking thinking somebody who's got an extensive criminal record and uh holds a Nazi ideology, you're going up to that door and you know that they've got guns.

Speaker 13 7:06

Yeah, you you're absolutely right, Joey. I I probably glossed over the the the real professional work that drugs and firearms do. They would have done a heap of work on rip mitigating that risk of just turning up, going up a driveway to see some firearms. They would have done a whole pile of policing activities in the background to make sure that they mitigated any risk to themselves.

Speaker 2 7:29

Absolutely. Jeez, but the last time we we'd seen the the back of the Nazis in 1945. What a bloody shame.

Speaker 13 7:36

No, it keeps coming back, doesn't it?

Speaker 2 7:38

Yep. Okay, so inside the house. What did they find?

Speaker 13 7:41

So once we're inside, obviously um we found a Nazi flag in the living room. We found uh more Nazi emblems, um I think some attached to the gun cabinet itself. And the motor vehicle in question that we talked about uh was a different colour to that which was registered on the system. Oh my gosh. So there's been a a few changes there.

Speaker 2 8:03

Is it fair to say that the reason why this person uh wanted firearms would be under investigation as part of this?

Speaker 13 8:13

Yeah, that will definitely form part of the investigation. Possibly I mean uh Yeah, can I go back to also how the the son got the license in the first place? Sure. Back and we're talking a few years ago now, but it was uh with one of those purchased property letters was one of the reasons we rewrote the act. Yep. Um because can we explain just quickly what so uh as you said, Joey it's an antiquated act, but back in 1973 when it was written, um you would roll up to a police station, say to the police sergeant, I want to get a firearm. Probably the first question he would ask would be, where are you gonna use it? Uh you'd say down at Farmer Jack's place. Sergeant would say, Well, bring me a letter from Farmer Jack, and I'll I'll I'll give you your license. Um that situation over the years, and remember it's been fifty um got bastardized quite uh quite badly. Um and then what you had was a couple of properties in particular selling those letters rather than a genuine relationship with that shooter to come up and control.

Speaker 2 9:19

So it was a loophole, basically.

Speaker 13 9:20

It was a it was a loophole that we closed with the new act that allows us to go back and and look at at those ones as well.

Speaker 2 9:26

Okay.

Speaker 13 9:27

Um so what what what I'm what I'm uh getting at there, Joey, is that then that son with one of those purchased letters, it you do then start to question what the genuine reason was for having those firearms in the house.

Speaker 2 9:39

Absolutely. Okay. Just I think it's probably um not a long bow to draw given that there are people in the community who maybe have firearms similar to this individual who have hold extreme ideologies, have a criminal record. If there's anybody who has yet to transition across, is it fair to say please come forward, do the right thing? Um because we don't know what we don't know. And we we would assume that the majority of our of those people are still uh good people. But there's gonna be that little bit of nerve-wracking um I guess you know, concern for police going up to a door. Is this a Nazi?

Speaker 13 10:25

Yeah, 100%. So it's dangerous for everybody, right? It's dangerous for everyone concerned. And and also let me put it really bluntly to people that are listening. If I do have to come down that driveway and seize your firearms because you're now in unlawful possession, you have not transitioned, your chances of getting a license again are zero.

Speaker 9 10:43

Yeah.

Speaker 13 10:43

You you you hand those plea those guns into a police station voluntarily, so you you know, you sort of you make that decision that I can't comply at the moment with the new act, I drop those guns into a police station, we can always reconsider you at a later point. But if I've got to come and seize them, and there are still, I think, anywhere between eight and ten thousand people out there still transitioning through.

Speaker 2 11:07

And how long do they I mean, uh they're all technically already in breach, aren't they? Well, some are.

Speaker 13 11:12

So some are falling by the wayside every day because everyone's got a different date, an expiry date. But the expiry dates go out to about August this year. But every week there are some falling out of that expiry. So yeah, the the the real key message here is if you're expiring, if you're nearly done, get those firearms into a police station.

Speaker 2 11:31

And look, you know, as we we've talked about the firearms community, it is a community. If you know somebody who who maybe probably needs a friendly reminder, just give them a reminder. Tap them on the shoulder or give them a call, go around, knock on the door, say, hey, if they're a good person and a responsible firearms holder, just let them know.

Speaker 13 11:48

Yeah, I agree, Joey. Look, when when the first bunch expired, there were about two and a half thousand that we thought that's a lot of work to go down a lot of driveways. By the end of the first week, that number had dropped to about sixteen hundred. So about 900 people had taken their firearms into a police station, and that's what we want to see.

Speaker 2 12:06

Excellent. How many of our uh firearms owners have actually transitioned to the new license?

Speaker 13 12:11

Uh 88%. 88%? A really high number.

Speaker 2 12:14

That's tens of thousands.

Speaker 13 12:15

Yeah, so over 55,000 now.

Speaker 2 12:18

Oh, that's fantastic.

Speaker 13 12:19

Yeah, so as you say, the majority of the firearm license holders out there are absolutely trying to do the right thing. They're actually getting their hunting permission sorted or their club membership sorted or whatever it is they need to do, they're getting it done. We're transitioning them through. And like I said, we've now got over 55,000 in our new portal.

Speaker 2 12:37

Excellent. Uh Lori, thanks very much for coming on and having a chat with us. Um, anything else you want to add?

Speaker 13 12:43

No, other than that clear message, I hope, Joey.

Speaker 2 12:45

And any firearms, don't be an auntie.

Speaker 14 12:49

This is WA Police Confidential.

Speaker 2 13:03

Welcome back to WA Police Confidential. This is a bit of a different encounter up in the East Kimberly town of Kananura that happened recently. You're about to hear some body worn camera audio, and we're going to show some vision uh on our socials as well, we hope, uh, of a call-out to a home where I'm gonna set the scene here. The officers walk into the house, it's a cluttered room. There's a woman sitting on an armchair, and she believes there's a well, more than one meter long snake who possibly underneath her armchair. Have a listen to this.

Speaker 4 13:47

You got a snake in your hands? What is the case? We'll shoot it for me. If we start shooting, you start bloody running out the door, right? Hopefully I don't have to shoot it. Hopefully it's not that big.

Speaker 2 14:44

Let's pause just there for a moment. The officer was having a bit of a joke. There's no intention of shooting the snake, of course, but but I do want to ask you, Nate. If you are a police officer and you are in danger, could you shoot a snake?

Speaker 14 14:55

You are authorised to lawfully destroy an animal, and there may be circumstances where that's applicable, such as a livestock uh injured on a highway or a kangaroo that you can't get any assistance for. There's no other, it's a last resort thing. Um, so yeah, you you most certainly could do it in that circumstance. In terms of, you know, an intruder at 4 30 in the morning in a Kananara lounge room, I would probably say not so much.

Speaker 2 15:19

Okay. All right then. And it'd be pretty difficult, wouldn't it?

Speaker 14 15:23

I think, yeah, in terms of the size of the snake, surface area-wise, and and the the likelihood of hitting that target, it's going to be quite difficult. You'd need to be a pretty good marksman to uh to take that shot.

Speaker 2 15:36

Okay, thankfully, no snakes harmed in this encounter. Let's keep listening.

Speaker 4 15:43

What type of snake?

Speaker 5 15:44

Brown.

Speaker 4 15:44

Do you mind if I stand on your couch?

Speaker 5 15:47

Is it a brown or a button?

Speaker 4 15:49

I think it's a brown did you get a did you manage to get a video of it or anything? You might better get up and drop his hospital. Oh, when we say a little olive Titan. You just stay where you are. Oh bloody, take care of him, alright? Yep.

Speaker 5 18:07

Now he's smashing my leg over. Sorry. Good spot.

Speaker 2 18:12

Okay, so the other officer that's with Josh has just spotted the snake, and it's pretty much underneath her armchair, and it's slithering around behind her armchair. Right where she is. Right where she is, and you see it come up onto the table, and its inquisitive little snaky head is looking right at her, and maybe is I would say 10 centimetres away. Tops, 10-15 centimeters. Have a listen to this. Yeah, listen to this.

Speaker 4 18:46

Where's he going? Oh! You're right. Oh! Oh, there he is. There he is. Yeah, I'll be able to pick him up from there.

Speaker 5 18:55

Oh my god, what a hackie!

Speaker 4 18:57

He's alright.

Speaker 5 18:59

Come on, buddy.

Speaker 4 19:01

If you just stay still, don't freak out because he wants to come over to you, because he can smell you, because he's looking for warmth. See he's had a bit of a feed in his belly there? Alright. I'll grab him in a moment. Oh, bless him. I'll grab him in a moment.

Speaker 2 19:16

Stopping just again for a moment. Um the officer in question, really good bloke. Uh he's a sergeant recently promoted named Josh. And uh yes, he is making kissing noises at the snake and offering to pick it up with his hands. Just for our international listeners. Believed to be a non-venomous snake at this stage. Yes. Um and and that's true actually about CPR, isn't it? We don't we don't do the mouth-kissy part anymore, do we?

Speaker 14 19:46

Oh, we carry mouth shields and and um if if you have one, certainly, but um chest compressions um can suffice, definitely.

Speaker 2 19:54

Okay. We're gonna bring you into the last part of this uh snakey encounter.

Speaker 4 19:59

Actually, I might grab him with a stick and then I'll grab him. He's beautiful. Look at him. Coming up for a cuddle. I got him. Yeah. There he is. Hey. If I can get him by the tail, we'll just let him go on there for a second. There we go. Now he's in your couch. In a moment. There we go. Do you want to kiss him the ball before we let him go? No, but are you happy for us just to put him in the bush across the road? Well, we've got a bin. What we'll do is we'll take him with it. Uh place order. He can come back over. He's beautiful. He doesn't only like smell, but he's a nice man. Yeah, he's got he's got something in his belly here. Do you know what? It's his master man, yeah, definitely. Beautiful. Have we got that big?

Speaker 5 21:12

We're putting it in the show. Come on.

Speaker 4 21:34

There you go. There you go.

Speaker 5 21:38

Thank you so much.

Speaker 4 21:40

You're welcome. Well, put your hands back together again.

Speaker 14 21:45

Crikey, he's a beauty, isn't he?

Speaker 2 21:48

Uh for any of our uh international listeners, particularly those in the UK, are thinking of joining the West Australian police force and coming across, because we are recruiting UK police officers. Um, it really is, despite what you may think. For this podcast, because we've had several uh encounters with snakes. It's it's pretty rare, isn't it?

Speaker 14 22:04

It's rare. And also I'll throw in there, Joey. Um officers in that part of the world are trained in snake handling. It's not something you're expected to have pre prerequisite knowledge on. So uh you get the training and uh you could find yourself at someone's lounge room at four in the morning getting a slippery sucker out of the couch.

Speaker 2 22:23

You're really selling it, mate. You are really selling it.

Speaker 14 22:25

Look, it wouldn't be the first time that evening I reckon the uh Kananara police would have a suspect put in the bin.

Speaker 2 22:31

Boom. Boom. Thank you very much to Josh and all of the team up there in Kananara.

Speaker 14 22:36

The key snakeaway from this story is don't break into people's homes early in the morning because the Kananara cops are gonna come and get you.

Speaker 2 22:43

Put you in the bin.

Speaker 14 22:43

Put you in the bin. This is WA Police Confidential.

Speaker 2 22:52

So I'm currently in Kalgooli for the 100th anniversary memorial service for detectives Pittman and Walsh, the gold stealing detection unit uh officers who gave their lives 100 years ago. And I'm joined by uh Commander Mike Bell from Regional WA and Sergeant Matt Bleach, who's actually a descendant of Inspector Walsh and a serving police officer in the West Australia Police Force. Gentlemen, we this morning um had an honour guard of 18 uh police motorbikes taking the remains of well Pittman and Walsh to the airport. They've been flown here to Kalgooli, they were met by the commissioner, he gave them a salute. I've just seen um a whole bunch, about 40 family members, descendants, uh gathered here to spread their ashes at the memorial site. But the big question I want I wanted to ask you, uh Mike, why were there remains at all?

Speaker 10 23:55

So what we know that after the trial when the two men got convicted, and the third one turned King's Evidence, as it was called in those days, um some of the artifacts were given away. For example, the firearm that killed him was handed to the I believe it was the solicitor, and that's just the way things worked in those days. What we understand happened to the ashes is these ashes were retrieved from a mine site near to this location because that's the location not left.

Speaker 2 24:21

They were murdered, I believe, in there and um displayed. They were murdered further out, burned, yes, put down a mine ship.

Speaker 10 24:25

That was done here, murdered further out, brought back in here. And uh they made their way to something that we had in those days called the Morbid Museum. The Morbid Museum shut down in about the 1950s.

Speaker 2 24:36

So it was a step before that, though. Was it evidence, Matt? Do you understand it? So there was some some of the body parts were kept for the trial?

Speaker 9 24:43

Uh I believe so, yeah, they kept in the tobacco tin uh for the trial, um, and then afterwards, obviously, um, as Mr. Bell explains, were handed elsewhere.

Speaker 10 24:54

Yeah, so we know that once they went into the Morbid Museum, once the Morbid Museum shut, what was the Morbid Museum? So those who don't know the Morbid Museum was exactly as it sounds, it was a display of like this, a murder case that had pictures and artifacts on display. It's what was done in those days. Of course, around the 1950s it was no longer palatable or culturally accepted, so these made their way somehow, we're not sure, to the Historical Society. And recently, I think it was last year when or the year before we hired Emma Rose as a police curator.

Speaker 2 25:27

For our new police museum that we're going to open. Yep.

Speaker 10 25:30

Correct. She started accessioning some of the artifacts uh into the um storage system that we had, and she came across these, and I still remember the day she rang me and said, We've got some uh bone fragments.

Speaker 2 25:42

Human remains.

Speaker 10 25:43

Human remains. And I said, You're kidding me who I've just said, apparently the policeman. I said, Who could that be? She said, Pippin and Walsh. I said, Right.

Speaker 2 25:51

Wow.

Speaker 10 25:52

So yeah.

Speaker 2 25:53

So this is us, I guess, closing that loop, riding that wrong. Correct. Um, and it was pretty moving, I thought. Um, I definitely saw some of the some of the descendants um today who've come from all over the country uh shedding a bit of a bit of a tear. Um these guys are you know the the incorruptibles, that's the way they were described in the paper. They you know they established that rule of law that's enabled us uh as a state to have a mining industry that's been so successful and we all benefit from the rewards that come from that and the lifestyle that comes from that.

Speaker 9 26:25

I mean, how do you feel? Um I think yeah, it's I just think it's amazing that we're still after 100 years supporting that. It shows the community that these officers' lives um you know weren't wasted. It was it's really important that we still uphold um all the police history. Um our freedoms and rights in Western Australia have unfortunately come with some officers' sacrifice. Um so it's important that we remember these officers and it's amazing that um it's still remembered today. And I know as a family member and descendant of um Inspector John Walsh, it's it's a privilege that um it's still held in such high regard within the WA police. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 27:10

Incredible, mate.

Speaker 9 27:11

Um fair to say, a little bit proud? I'm very proud, yes, very proud of the of these um of yeah, Inspector Walsh. Um obviously, if it weren't for him, I still wouldn't be here. So um my mother is um his great-granddaughter, so she's a Welsh, Mae Welsh. Um and I know growing up it was a big story within our family, and and probably part of the reason why I ended up a police officer is obviously the seed was planted at quite a young age when you learn about your family heritage and and the history, especially in a young country like Australia, when your family plays an important role. It wasn't realistically, it was only a hundred years ago when when this happened. So um I remember the stories my pop telling me, and um obviously mum and we read about it in books. Um it's amazing, yeah. I guess my line, linear line, um plays an important role in Western Australia. Absolutely.

Speaker 10 28:08

And I think it's important to mention that we do have a big representation from the Walsh side of the family, and we have one from the Pittman side, so she's flown out from Cairns.

Speaker 2 28:16

Yes, met her this morning, lovely lady.

Speaker 10 28:18

Queen's yeah, Liz Ferris, so she's flown out, she's representing the Pittman side of the family. So um, yeah, so we do have both sides of the families represented, so nice ceremony.

Speaker 2 28:28

Oh look, and and every everything that you read uh about both of those, uh both of those officers is that they were just fantastic, their job, but great people as well. Um yeah, look, thanks very much for your time. Last thing I'm just gonna quickly ask you guys now, as part of the story, when when the detectives Pittman and Walsh went to uh to bust this criminal gang um that had a I think it was an illegal mine or processing sort of processing facility, um, they went out and they rode their pushbikes was about 40k's, I think. So they went out in their pushbikes. How do you guys, given that you're a you're a sergeant and you're a commander, but somewhere in the middle there is uh is the inspector rink. How do you feel about uh the local inspector having to ride a pushbike out here every year on the memorial uh 40k's, what do you reckon?

Speaker 10 29:15

So so interestingly, this location we're at today is where the bodies were found in the mine sharp. Where they were murdered was further out. So in the conditions up here, you know, you can imagine the heat and on the bicycle and riding out there would have been a hell of an adventure to say the least. Of course, when they got out there, they get into a gun battle. Yeah. So um, yeah, it's it's hard to fathom uh on the bike. And interestingly, we're still trying to chuck down. We had a periscope where they used to ride up the old dunny cart lanes in Calgoorly with a periscope, looking over the fences for people illegally smelting. Is that right? Yeah, 100%. That was part of their duties as well. So there's a there's a fabulous history and story behind it, and that's why I'm so proud and happy that WA police has taken on the museum because we do have this rich history and we need to bring it out.

Speaker 2 30:03

Yes.

Speaker 10 30:04

You know, I served in Calgoorly detectives here in the mid-90s. I knew of Pittman and Walsh, but I didn't know, I certainly didn't know the detail.

Speaker 2 30:10

Michael, I thought you were about to say you knew Pittman and Walsh. It's been around for a while. Uh I get that, but uh 1920s, you're in good Nick. I am. Uh very good, very good. Gentlemen, thanks very much for your time. Very much appreciate it. If you want to hear the full story about Pittman and Walsh, uh it's on the previous episode, so go and check that out. Thanks very much again.

Speaker 10 30:29

Thanks.

Speaker 11 30:43

So imagine it's an ordinary hot day in the middle of January, in the middle of summer 2022, unexplicably Lee Kirkham disappears. Despite extensive police investigations, searches, and proof-of-life checks, Lee has never been found. I'm now joined by Senior Constable Claire Lyons. Thank you very much for joining us.

Speaker 7 31:06

Thank you for having me.

Speaker 11 31:08

Can you tell us a little bit about Lee? Who was this guy?

Speaker 7 31:12

Uh I speak about Lee um with the blessing of his family, um, particularly his uh parents, who I've built a relationship with over this investigation. Uh Lee was uh 50 years old at the time of his um disappearance. He was said to be a very private person, um, very hands-on, very hardworking, um, been working in hands-on sort of roles the majority of his life um prior to being made uh redundant. Um he built with uh his family uh property in Barraga, um which they were living in at the time of his disappearance. Um he was said to be always in the shed doing things at the property, um, very very hands-on. Um he was married with a young son and was doing some on and off uh contract work at the time of his disappearance.

Speaker 11 32:02

So really just your average next-door neighbor, hardworking family man. Um take us to that day in January 2022. What happened?

Speaker 7 32:14

So uh on the 4th of January, uh Lee was again at at the property um working. He'd been there with his dad. Um, they were preparing that house for sale, so they were doing some work in the yard. Uh, given the time of the year it was it was quite warm. Uh so he's told his dad at about 11am to go home. Uh that's the last known in-person sighting uh we we know of of Lee. As I said, that property was being prepared for sale. Um a few days later, uh the agent that was conducting that sale attended the property, uh, noticed that the doors had been left open, uh, there was no sign of Lee anywhere. His car was still in the in the driveway, uh, which was very unusual because she'd been corresponding with him on and off um in the in the previous few days, and they had an organised meeting um that they were going to sign some relevant documents and things like that. Uh she went into the property and found that it was unusual and and couldn't find him and couldn't contact him by phone, uh, and also located his phone uh inside the house. And that was what prompted uh the contact with the police and the reporting of him uh missing at the time. And as I said, that's the last uh the 4th of January 2022 is the last known confirmed sighting of Lee.

Speaker 11 33:31

And there've obviously been quite extensive search operations, land, air mounted, and even some dive searching as well, um, from from a whole range of different business units. When when you guys sort of took on the case when it became a long-term missing person case, um where do you where do you start when someone has just it's seemingly vanished?

Speaker 7 33:57

So as an investigator, we traditionally would look at the last known location or last known point. It's usually a a good starting point. We look at a lot of things in the background as well. Um, but in that this particular case, uh we started at the at the address because we knew that that's where he'd been uh a few days prior. And as you said, a lot of business units, just also given the location of that property, it's a semi-rural area, um, lots of area to search. Um, so we utilized any resource that we had uh available. So that was um yeah, detectives, uh general duties, frontline officers, uh, police air wing, uh police mounted, and police divers, uh just to try and ensure that we covered all bases, uh, I guess with that. Again, uh unusual circumstances, and we're trying to answer the question of why that person has has gone and where they have gone as well. Part of that large land and air uh search a few days later, we did locate um some personal property of Lee's, um, which led us to continue the search in that direction as we believed that that was where he'd gone to. Again, we can't answer the question of why um he's gone there. There's nothing from the house that indicated why he may have gone there. The nature in which the property was located raised some questions as well. Uh, we found a wallet and a few other things that had been discarded um near a body of water, um, and those items were wet as well. So that led us to believe that there may have been an entry into water. Um, either him or that property that led us down that direction, which we continued the search, which carried on for about three weeks, uh, and again utilizing all the resources that we had. And unfortunately, that was the only property that we were able to find um following his disappearance that we could definitively link to him.

Speaker 11 36:04

And during the investigation, um you obviously learn a lot more about the person and the person who's gone missing, their family, their circumstances. What sort of things did you learn about Lee during the investigation?

Speaker 7 36:18

Uh family, and again, I say this with with their blessing, um, they've said, yeah, very, very hardworking, uh, incredibly private um person. I know uh in the lead up he had a real interest in uh a few theories, particularly. Um, one of them is the Nasara theory, which uh relates to uh debt forgiveness, um that the possibility that all debts will be cancelled, and that can that's a personal debt that I'm s I speak about. That was particularly relevant to us when we looked into this case because we knew the circumstances around the sale of the house and a few other things. Um, but again, based on reviewing those things, nothing unfortunately at the time, there was no lines of inquiry to indicate why he had left the house on that day.

Speaker 11 37:11

And so, you know, it's a couple of years down the track now. Um, you know, that's still for for his family, I'm sure, feels like an eternity that he hasn't been around. What sort of um, I suppose, theories does does the family have, do we investigators have about what might have happened to him?

Speaker 7 37:29

Speaking with the family, and again, uh, we build quite a close relationship with them because it's such a personal journey, and you can't help but be touched by it and and and be affected by it. And again, there's so many questions that sadly a lot of the in a lot of cases we we can't answer as much as we would like to. We've we could we exhaust our lines of inquiry and the investigation continues, um, but we may reach a point where we have uh we lose a bit of direction, I guess, with our lines of inquiry. The family have reached a point where they do believe that he it has passed away. Around that area again, as I said, it's a very semi-rule, there's a lot of bodies of water, and just with what we know about the personal property that have been located, uh, the family do support the theory that it's likely he may have gone into a body of water. There is a lot of water in that area, dams, but also a nearby river. Um, and whether it's through misadventure um and just accident, um, that that's unfortunately um where they believe he he is.

Speaker 11 38:34

And obviously, um, you know, this this case remains unsolved. Um, and those movements on the night that or the day that he banished are out of character for him. And despite that significant investigative effort, there's still no explanation to to what occurred. But the police continue to hold out hope that that something may come of of either this podcast or or any information from the community that might might help us um piece together exactly what happened.

Speaker 7 39:07

Yeah, absolutely. Um we are very evidence-led. We can only go by what we what we know and what we found as as a result of that investigation. Um, we know that Lee left that property uh on the night of the 4th of January 2022. Um he was seen on CCTV leaving the property, so that we can confirm that. Um, but uh other than that, there's nothing to indicate the reasoning for that. It's very out of character for him, and that's based on uh conversations had with family, who obviously know him the best. Uh, of course, if anyone has any information about Lee following his disappearance or even prior, just that would help support our investigation. Uh we always would welcome them to come forward and speak with us.

Speaker 11 39:53

Absolutely. And you can do that through Crime Stoppers, calling 131444. Uh, any way that you can contact police and and hand over some information if you have it would be would be helpful. That's right. Thank you. Well, thanks for joining us. Thank you very much.

Speaker 40:08

All units. The WA police forces looking for people, all kinds of people, people in the community and into formal driving, dumb people, in the water people, people who like women because helicopters and people who are being on the community, helping others and all into company, not just one of them. Ordinary people who look for doing the control ordinary thing. If you can be one of these people, you've found your people. So let's join forces authorised by the state government perform.

Speaker 12 40:38

Welcome back to Operation Podcasts. Policing can be a challenging job, and it's super important to have a strong support system behind you. Sometimes that support system can come with four legs. Today we're joined here by Sergeant Ben Cochran, who has found an unexpected source of balance after a long day. A retired Greyhound honey. Ben, how has honey helped you switch off after work?

Speaker 3 41:03

Oh, I think it's just like I suppose that general presence of you know, walking through the door and Elisa's something that's happy to see you're coming home from work at the end of the day. Um yeah, she's just um supposed to kind of mood that she's in. It's just weird, like you're always in a good mood, so it puts you in a good mood instantly. It's just kind of a I suppose a partnership, isn't it? Was there a reason that you chose a retired greyhound or Um obviously growing up I've always had like at least three dogs in the house since being about ten years old and recently came home from the UK just a couple couple years ago. So I knew I wanted a dog because I just knew how great they were to have, like, in your life just in general, and it was just a random email from probably the the union came through and I th I saw that there was a a partnership with Gat WA and I was kind of never really considered greyhounds, didn't know a whole lot about them as as a breed, but did a bit of research and um then me and my girlfriend were just looking on on on their website and they've got one of these little profiles and bios for him, so we saw the the one for honey and just kind of I suppose read read her uh biography and we just thought, yeah, that's that's the dog for us, we've gotta have that type of thing.

Speaker 2 42:22

So Did um did your research include uh conclusive factual evidence that greyhounds are the greatest dogs in the universe?

Speaker 3 42:29

Yeah, I mean it definitely yes, and since since um getting a greyhound I wholeheartedly agree, you know, I've I've grown up with cock spaniels, westies, rockwilders, but I think until you have a greyhound you realize there's something quite special about the breed, definitely.

Speaker 2 42:46

Yeah. Because I also have a greyhound. Maggie the Greyhound, yeah, nine nine years old. Uh she did ninety-eight races, actually. And she is the sweetest, most beautiful girl. They they're couch potatoes really. They're great, they're actually great apartment dogs. Yeah. They have a really high metabolism, they run around run around for like fifteen minutes a day. And then you know, they don't require a lot of walking, they're very soft. Yeah. I actually I met a greyhound for the first time. I was actually at a crime scene when I was a crime reporter and I was door knocking looking for witnesses and CCTV. And um this beautiful Greyhound just came out and did the old Greyhound lean, which they do on my leg, and she's at at perfectly hand height for like padding and her her fur was like velvet. Like, this is amazing. This dog's too good to be true.

Speaker 3 43:37

It's just a greyhound thing, and I'll lay on her back and I'll fully extend like her arms and paws in the air, and it's just like they like suspend themselves and they'll slowly drift to sleeve and drift and her tongue will be at the side and they can't. They are so so lovable. And like you said, like I mean I I was under the impression greyhound is you know, dog nets can run forty miles.

Speaker 2 44:00

mile per hour like it's gonna need a lot of time and energy and walks but like you said 15 20 minute bursts and and they're asleep for like I think they sleep for like 16 hours a day pretty much yeah living the dream second fastest animal on the planet pretty pretty cool oh well sorry should I say land based animal on the planet um the the the idea of behind this is that um the union were trying to you know suggest that policing is a tough job and sometimes you know you it's good to have that support that love of a love of a greyhound um or or any dog you've you've also got a support well not support but a a friend at home that helps you don't yeah the from one extreme of a greyhound um being quite tall and and uh and long i've got I've got a small dash hound so yeah look it's just in the hound family and they're definitely similar looking they're just vertically quite stretched out yeah yeah yeah no they're um they're great it's like you said Ben it's great to come home too and have that have that smiling more smiling face at you yeah a couple of greyhound myths they uh can be very gentle they don't have to wear the muzzle no um no not anymore that some of them are really good although check before you opt to adopt some of them are good really great with kids and with cats yeah I've never had an instance where you have you kind of had the are they chasing that dog because it's a rabbit nope they're just chasing that dog because it's another dog.

Speaker 3 45:20

Yeah um they're fantastic and there's lots of them available for adoption yeah 100% and as as Saty said I mean on on Gap's website like Gap WA they're really good with the bios they say like are suitable for children age 10 and under or 10 and up suitable for like other dogs. Tells you how long that they can kind of be left on their own quite happily for so yeah it's definitely something like I'd recommend to any officer looking for a dog to definitely definitely uh do some research or anyone in their website yeah yeah anyone in general 100% they are amazing amazing dogs truly the Greyhound Association of Western Australia Goa also really good and I think you raised a good point it's almost like you you you pick the dog yeah that is going to be suitable for your lifestyle and you know the people who are fostering usually have have done some work. So if you're a full-time worker you know you're going to pick up a dog that's suitable to to full time work and still going to have a really happy lovely life with you whereas um you know sometimes when you get a puppy as as Nate can attest to sometimes it's a bit of luck of the draw and and I know that Lulu um is is lovely but she's you know you get what you get yeah yeah yeah definitely Maya do you love greyhounds I do like greyhounds we yeah I should love oh yes I do love we used to um house it for a friend and they had a greyhound and it was great yeah well Ben thanks very much for coming on is there anything else that you sort of wanted to share about the sort of the the benefits I guess and they're amazing dogs amazing animals they're you know great great for you you help them uh kind of get into a normal home life away from that racing business you know they've got their own own traumas to overcome and you know you you scratch their back and um now scratch yours type thing it's uh definitely well worth looking into thank you very much mate and just for the record you don't always rescue them sometimes sometimes they rescue you thank you very much for listening to another episode of WA Police Confidential we've covered a lot of history over the past couple of weeks uh so we aren't going to have a history fact to close out the show today but Nate you've got you've got a little teaser for next week I certainly do Joey next week we investigate how sunken treasure off the coast of Calbary from 1712 is still the subject of criminal proceedings.

Speaker 2 47:50

Oh that's got to be maybe the coolest teaser history teaser yet fantastic okay yeah um we'll have another big show for you next week and of course if you're interested in joining our police force search up let's join forces and find out more information from there.

Speaker 1 48:05

Thanks again this is WA Police Confidential Operation Podcast was produced by Joe Garrett, Danny Vandeve and Lisa Evans, sound editing by Joe and Danny cover song by the WA Police Pipe Band and Cheesy Podcast The Music by Joey Catenzaro. By the way why just listen to a podcast about policing when you could actually be doing it let's join forces dot wa.gov dot AU