WA Police Confidential (Formerly Operation Podcast)
The official WA Police Force Podcast
WA Police Confidential (Formerly Operation Podcast)
Ep 15 - Manslaughter Conviction after 15 Years, Taz joins the show once again!
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Episode 15 of WA Police Confidential! The official WA Police Force Podcast.
On this week’s show:
- Senior Sergeant Hugh Scott takes us through as successful manslaughter prosecution 15 years after the incident took place.
- Reality Star and Police Sergeant Taz Etto joins the show!
- Officers from Serious and Organised Crime give us the rundown on a major operation!
- A WA connection to Jack the Ripper!
This podcast discusses real-life crimes and law enforcement matters. It may include detailed descriptions of criminal activity, traumatic incidents, and other content that could be confronting or distressing, particularly for victim survivors. Listener discretion is advised. If you find any of these topics upsetting, please consider whether this content is right for you and seek support if needed.
SPEAKER_05And this week, we're going to answer this question. What if it took a child, the victim of a violent assault, 15 years to die of the injuries they suffered in that attack? Could justice still be delivered? It had never been done before in Australia. But that didn't stop a homicide detective here in WA who was determined to bring some closure to a dying mother.
SPEAKER_04Honestly, this story just gives me chills, Joey.
SPEAKER_05I challenge anyone to listen to this and not get goosebumps.
SPEAKER_04We'll also have Takedown of the Week with Tazetto.
SPEAKER_05And he will talk us through some really good arrests, keeping our community safe.
SPEAKER_04And Joey, have you ever wanted to know what it really takes to bring down a major criminal network?
SPEAKER_05You bet I do.
SPEAKER_04Well, in this episode, we'll take you right through inside one of those operations.
SPEAKER_05All that and more in this week's episode of WA Police Confidential. On the 1st of June 2020, an 18-year-old girl named Tegan passed away in hospital here in Perth because of injuries she had received during a very serious assault. The issue was that assault had occurred 15 years earlier when Teagan was just a toddler. Now, normally this may have just been a matter that was referred to the coroner, not a criminal investigation. In fact, we don't think this has ever been done before in Australia, where somebody has decade more than a decade after the attack succumbed to their injuries, and there's been a second criminal prosecution of the offender. Now, this might have just been where the story ended, but from a strange series of events, I would say, a uh a police officer here, the Westronian Police Force, by the name of Senior Sergeant Hugh Scott, suddenly became aware of this case. Hugh, thanks very much for joining us. Thank you for having me. So Tegan passes away in 2020. When do you first hear that this girl had been assaulted when she was a toddler? And you know, what are you thinking at that point in time?
SPEAKER_08Well, yeah, I started at the Homicide Squad in in 2020. I think it was in April of 2020, and and we were um on on a shift on a weekend, I believe it was, and contacted by the um a doctor from the Perth Children's Hospital um at the back end of May, a few days, I can't remember specifically, but a few days at the back end of May there. And we were told that um this young girl had sustained um some very serious injuries when she was a toddler, um, and that they believed that her pending death, uh which was likely coming in the next couple of days, was going to be directly related to what had happened to her. Um, and they weren't particularly sure of how it should be dealt with, as you say, whether it was going to be a coronial matter or if this should be criminal. Um their belief was that it would be criminal, but they weren't sure. Um so they reported it to the police. And I think, as you say, by chance, I happened to be uh on work that day and and spoke with the the officers from the coronal investigation unit who brought it to our attention. Yes. And I think um it was one of those moments where I had dealt with a previous investigation um that allowed me to understand that this was going to be a criminal matter and that we needed to progress it that way.
SPEAKER_05Okay. So we'll wind that back then. That previous investigation, I believe, was uh a coward punch attack on a teenage boy and he'd been in hospital. What what did you learn through that particular case?
SPEAKER_08Well, that case, again, a very, very sad case was the um a young, young male, 18 or 19, I can't remember specifically, but I believe he was 18, um, coming home from a night out and um had gotten into an argument and was the victim of a very serious punch um to his head. Now, that punch caused him to sustain a very, very um traumatic brain injury and um was hospitalized. Now, he was um hospitalized for almost 10 months, and during that time we'd arrested the offender and we're um he was before the courts and that he'd actually chosen to plead guilty to that matter. And I was concerned because the young man in this, in in the victim in this, of this matter, um, his health was up and down. There were days where the doctors were were making progress, and then there was other days where he was just they thought he was gonna die. They thought he might die. Um, and this was a a continual series of events over 10 months. And I think if you look at it from the the lens of the family, that's a an incredibly traumatic thing to see the the the rise and the wave of their of their yu their loved one is just it's heartbreaking. But it came to a point where we were about to finalise the prosecution and he was going to be held guilty for what he'd done to this to this young boy. But my concern was that, well, what happens if he's found guilty of grievous of grievous body harm or the offence? But then this young man does die. And that was to me was the biggest concern. It was like because I was a young detective then, I didn't quite understand it all. Um, but I had a wonderful prosecutor, Laura Christian, who is now her honor district court judge, Laura Christian, um, basically informed me that there is a part of the legislation that allows us um to potentially re-prosecute offenders for this very purpose. And there is part of the legislation that says if you do an act that ultimately causes the death of another person, you can be re-sentenced for that for the appropriate offense. So even if you've been held guilty for something else before, if that person does subsequently die post that, you can go back and and either re-investigate, see if the you know potentially a causation does exist, and if it's if they if it's all all there, then you can re-prosecute that.
SPEAKER_05So young Hugh, the the detective, rookie detective, pops that away somewhere in the back of his head.
SPEAKER_08Stores that in the back of the brain. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And so it's sitting in there somewhere. It's not it's not been done before as far as we're aware.
SPEAKER_08Well, that's what um uh Miss Christian did explain to me. She goes, I know that that section exists, but we've never used it in this state before. And she and then she basically said, I don't think it's been done in Australia before.
SPEAKER_09Yes.
SPEAKER_08And that sort of um ticked my interest because um unfortunately this young boy did die. Um, we and that matter was dealt with accordingly, and and it all ended up with the offender pleading guilty to the to the new offense, and and we were okay. Um but I started to do some research on it. I was like very interested because to me this seemed like a an area of policing that was unique. It was um something that would be and not your normal everyday sort of murder homicide investigation. It was using some nuanced legislation, um, and it comes from a thing called um the year and a day rule. So the year in the day rule is a piece of archaic legislation, which um basically says that if you assaulted someone and a year uh and after a year and a day they died, you could not be held accountable for that death because and I say archaic legislation, yes, our medical um understanding was not as good as it is now. Sure. So we actually repealed that section of the legislation, I think in this state in 1991.
SPEAKER_05Yep.
SPEAKER_08Uh, for instance, the United Kingdom repealed it, I believe it was 1995. And so it this has been in existence for for some time. So I was in my little interested brain, was like, I'm gonna have a look. And I actually researched a a lot of it and found multiple cases in the United Kingdom where this this had occurred. And I and was like, oh, that's that's really interesting.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_08And sort of just kept that knowledge to myself. I was like, oh, that's you know, I'll hopefully, you know, we never need to use it.
SPEAKER_05Of course. I mean, because I mean, generally speaking, if unless there's new evidence, um, and if a matter has been dealt with in court and an appeal period has passed, I mean, that's usually it is what it is. So you've found you're aware of this this amendment to that legislation, the old RK legislation, as you said. And and yes, of course, medical science advances means that maybe you do have a shot at proving these things in a court of law, but it hasn't technically been done before. Fast forward to 2020. After you got the call, did you did you get an opportunity to to visit uh Tegan in hospital?
SPEAKER_08So the um the day we got the phone call, I advised um my senior investigating officer and and my um district and sorry, detective inspector um at the major crime squad about what we were looking at, and I believed it to be criminal and that we we needed to treat it as such, not to maliciously go after this this uh person again for potentially have having caused or will you know potentially cause Tegan's death, but to actually give that family the appropriate service that they deserved, um, and is to wit to work out whether we could. Um so we didn't um actually visit the family until Tegan's passing, and that was to give them space and not um really inject ourselves upon a family that going, you know, we're sitting in the wind here just waiting. That's not, you know, you don't want to do that. Um you want to give them the space to to let them grieve and stuff. So we didn't we didn't visit till I think it was the the following day. So that's it.
SPEAKER_04When where when you make that decision and you've had that conversation with your bosses, where do you even begin? Because like you said, 15 years is a really long time. Where do you start?
SPEAKER_08Yeah, well, I again um both of the both of the uh senior officers that I spoke of are incredibly supportive, incredibly um in agreement with the fact that we we need to give this um a a go because it is it's highly important. We're talking about the death of a young girl from a from a catastrophic um injury, you know, when she was when almost three, I believe it was. Um so yeah, so I kind of that moment of like, where do you start with something that's potentially this big in respect to working it all out? And I think, as I said to you before, I was, you know, I I'd done that research and had some understanding of these specific cases that um were in the UK, and that's where I actually started. I um I there was a couple of um academic um writings in this uh homicide journal that the UK publishes, and and two of them related to two of these cases. Um so uh the senior investigating officers for those matters, I emailed directly and just basically asked them was like, I've got one of these cases and I need your help. Wow. And it was um one of the most amazing collaborative um sort of uh experiences I've had with a with a foreign policing force or forces, because there's multiple in the UK, but of course um I had four separate um superintendents um reach out with investigations that they'd run of this similar matter and advise me of about potentially 12, um, or there was, I think 12 um that they had run over the years about how how they did it, how they formatted it and stuff. And obviously, WA legislation different to the UK kind of it is similar because we we're based off the United Kingdom system, but we have our own nuances. But they gave us the real grounding of like this is how it can be done, and this and this is why it's important to do it. Um, and it really that sort of set the the foundation, and it is it is a um a real gift that they gave me to really sort of go, right, this is how we can build the framework to get this off the ground.
SPEAKER_05How did you how did you use that gift? I mean, I I believe this was an 18-month process, some of which I I think maybe you might have done a little bit of on on your own time.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's yeah, I beg yeah, well, obsessive would probably be the word that I probably use was um I was obsessed with making sure that I got it right. Yes. Um, but how I started it was um if you take the original matter, so in 2005, we start with gathering all the materials right into that. So all the original investigative materials, photographs, forensics, the the prosecution, the transcripts, all that sort of stuff, and and really securing that picture there and um making sure that we still hold all that evidence and making sure that we gather everything that we can to enable us to show that the first incident did occur. Now I know it's on public record, of course, of course, but you have to establish that Absolutely.
SPEAKER_05And and look, for people who are listening, I mean, can you talk us through roughly what that incident entailed, that assault?
SPEAKER_08So um what uh effectively what happened was uh uh Tegan was thrown to the floor um by the offender and um hit, I believe, a concrete slab on her head, um, which caused her to have um this traumatic brain injury. Now that traumatic brain injury um caused her to suffer, I think it was 16 different medical complications throughout her life, cerebral palsy, um respiratory issues, um a myriad of of serious medical conditions that really impacted her quality of life. Um she required 24-hour day care, um, and uh she was peg fed. There's a myriad of things that this is. Ultimately you killed her.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_08So so you start with the with the the initial point, you lock all that material down, and then becomes the the difficult issue of now 15 years, and how do we do that? So interview the family and find out where has this child been medically treated? Everywhere, can't miss one, must have them all, because you are trying to make sure that none of that causation issues are are broken. So causation meaning that the causative link, so there's nothing that breaks the chain.
SPEAKER_05So um if she'd had a car accident, for instance. Again, if she was something like that in the interim, that would have muddied the waters somewhere.
SPEAKER_08Or you know, she may have had another fall or something like that, which may, you know, enough to enough to be serious enough to potentially break that chain. So so interviewed the the family, and they were uh very loving and caring family, and they were very supportive, and they all banded together um quite well to look after Tegan over these 15 years. They all had a vested interest in making sure that she got the, as they say, the justice for Tegan. Um, so they started in um basically tell us, you know, what GPs she'd been to, where she was, but primarily she'd been treated through uh Princess Margaret Hospital and Perth Children's Hospital. And um with all of that, I think um with all the the orders that we sought for the medical records, we gathered in excess of about 12,000 pages worth of medical records, uh over 26 different volumes from just um Princess Margaret Hospital slash Perth Children's Hospital. So you're talking about a lot of uh a lot of paperwork with um doctors chicken scratch on it. Of course.
SPEAKER_05A lot of doctors' handwriting.
SPEAKER_08So the doctor's handwriting whole, yeah. So having to almost as bad as a reporter's handwriting or a police officer's handwriting. Yeah, true. I'll pay that. Um so that's one component where you're having to read every page and making and identifying, you know, and not not influencing potential people that you might speak to about. Does that concern me? Does that concern me? And what I found over that, over that 12,000 odd pages, which took a very long time to review, was there was nothing really sticking out that um caused overly too much concern in respect to this causation issue. But we were incredibly lucky with this investigation because um for um the last, I believe, nine years of Tegan's life, she was treated by one specialist from Perth Children's Hospital or Princess Margaret, Dr. Anna Gabye, an amazing um doctor who was able to provide some very um detailed and and and um amazing insights into the life of Tegan, what she's um been a victim of, what she's um what she's experienced, what how she's been treated, um and her expertise and insights were um pivotal in ultimately identifying that as from a medical expertise um standpoint, that what happened to her back then is causing or has caused her death. And having that from an expertise perspective and and really locking down that, yes, our opinion is what happened here caused all of these medical conditions which have ultimately led to her death, led to her death, that extra push.
SPEAKER_05And we're gonna hear a little bit um about Tegan and who she was um and what this meant to her family, because we're actually gonna speak to to one of the family members um and get their perspective on this as well. You're in the zone, you're now in with a shot at at prosecuting this. Where does it go from there?
SPEAKER_08Yeah, so having the medical sort of side of this um sort of um, I wouldn't say secure, but looking, as you say, reasonable. Um now is the time to actually test the legislative side. And that's the the bit there where this really stands of like, is my assessment of that section accurate? And am I right? Or, you know, and I so I should be if Laura Laura Christian's telling me so. I would believe the uh her honor if she's telling me so, but um is that section, but not only that section, are we talking about is this duplicitous? So as you said before, that double jeopardy aspect, are we going after someone that we can't?
SPEAKER_09Yep.
SPEAKER_08So does that have any weight in this? Um, what is the admissibility of all the previous evidence? Um, so you're really working through evidence admissibility, um, building that legislative footing to actually say no, a prosecution can occur. And that took um a lot of time to actually work out the nuances and actually have I have I ticked all the elements here? Is that are we are we in with a shot? Um and it is it's a rewarding experience when every time you take the next step, there is that little tick which is like, oh yeah, I think, yeah, we've got that bit down.
SPEAKER_05And where does this culminate? Like, I mean, is there a day where where you know the charge is upgraded? Do you do you hand something to someone? Is it legacy served, or it it how does it, where does it sort of come to a head?
SPEAKER_08So it ultimately, as you say, it took it took us some it took us some time, so 18 months. And I and again, it wasn't an investigation to be rushed on, and I must say that I I I really appreciate the family's patience because trying to establish a case, as you say, the first of its kind in Australia you can't rush that. You can't really make any rash decisions. So having the family's patience to support us and really understanding that we are trying something unique here, we are trying something that's never been done before. So allowing or having the patience with with me specifically was was an amazing thing. Um, and after that 18-month period, I believe it was uh roughly in September of 2021, we came to the point where we were like, we have enough evidence here that this gentleman can be charged again. And um it goes up through our chain of command, comes back down, and yep, you're authorized to charge. And it was a it was an amazing experience to have that, like, yeah, cool. Actually, everyone's supportive of this decision. Um, we couldn't immediately run out and and deal with it, um, competing priorities, and one of those was Task Force Rodea. Um, so that sort of um impacted our ability to to get out there.
SPEAKER_05But um Task Force Rodeo for those who um may not know, or um, and I look, I'm I'm pretty sure everybody would remember uh Cleo Smith, um, the the young girl who was uh kidnapped in Carnarvon and and rescued after, geez, it would have been more than two weeks, I think it was. 18 days. 18 days, yeah. A remarkable, a remarkable story. Um so obviously, you know, and you were doing some work on that. I think a lot of people did at that time, but uh so you you this is all coming to a head at a very busy, difficult time. You've got this when's the actual moment of this is um you're charged.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, so um it was uh into into November, I don't remember the day specifically, but in roughly around November of 2021, we we we jumped on a on a on a plane and and flew up to uh Carvan, fully enough, uh, where we went to the um suspect's house and uh and arrested him on suspicion of murder. And um uh he was completely taken aback and as you as understandable, um, but yeah, we we arrested him and uh we conducted our investigation from there.
SPEAKER_09Namely the murder of Tegan Joseph, what what the hell? What the hell because you're under arrest you understand arrived.
SPEAKER_08I'm not particularly sure to this day whether he did or did not know that Teagan had passed away. Um, but he was definitely it was a a state of what would be reasonable to suspect is a shock. Um but as we do, we treat with respect, of course, and and dignity to the man, and we we conducted our inquiries. Now later that day, he he was formally charged with. with murder um and uh was placed before the courts and that started a very long process. Um obviously the lawyers would want to test the legislation, work out what the case was and and so on. So we go through our disclosure in criminal proceedings. Um but yeah so that's how it all sort of came to end.
SPEAKER_05Now did he plead guilty or not guilty and and what was the outcome of that?
SPEAKER_08So the ul the ultimate outcome was that um and and rightly so I think was that um a a a plea of guilt was entered for the that's the offence of manslaughter um and uh he was subsequently uh sentenced in September of 2023 I believe um and received uh further custodial time for for the offence um which is he received five years for the original assault and then a further four and a half years um for causing the death so totality wise nine and nine and a bit years um which is yeah what was the family's and and I know that there's there was uh somewhat of a um I know you you are just working through but there was a bit of a clock ticking as well in the background in terms of the family and and for this outcome for this justice to be delivered wasn't there yeah can you tell us why it was so important that it happened when it happened yeah well I think um it's it's again an another tragic turn in this case um was unfortunately uh Tegan's mother was diagnosed with um a stage four cancer um and during the sentencing proceedings wasn't actually able to be present as she was hospitalized. Um so it was one of those moments where you just like what else could happen to this family? What else could go wrong? This is just unbelievable what this family's going through. But I think the ability for um Tegan's mother to actually have witnessed the sentencing and actually got what she hoped for. Justice justice as you say or that as I like to call it accountability but accountability accountability for the offender is um it was something that she um was incredibly thankful for incredibly grateful for and the family um you know in a in again another dark turn another dark chapter of that family um were able to have some sort of outcome that they deserved as well um was was a it was a great thing but yeah as you say the the clock was ticking up when we talk about timing you got the verdict she got justice and accountability if you will as you call it how much longer did it take into other last um I believe it was a few weeks a few weeks yeah so we had to secure that again don't quote me on the exact um timeframe but I believe it was yeah a few weeks that um she was able to hang on for um that outcome you know this all this work 18 months of diligence and research and and investment in this case from yourself what was that like what was that feeling like for you to have secured that outcome for the family what how did that feel well yeah I suppose if you take it from the first of June 2020 to the to the September 2023 whichever the day was specifically um a lot of time a lot of hours a lot of um have I got this right the stress of can can we achieve this you know you again we're we're talking about just transparency and accountability that's that's what we're here for if is if the accountability is not there and he doesn't get held accountable because he's he shouldn't be accountable then I would I would accept that but to actually hear the word guilty and um and to have that sentencing is something that I didn't find came straight away. It took days and then you actually sit back and you go, wow we actually did an amazing thing here like this is 15 years later and we've we can't fix this situation. We can't make it better. This is this is you know the loss of a child in in horrible circumstances but to to give that family that outcome is probably uh probably the most reward well one of the most rewarding things I've done in this job for sure.
SPEAKER_05I would hazard a guest to say that the right detective was there at the right time and it all came together the way it was supposed to. Tragic that it had to happen that way but as you said that's her legacy um and we owe Tegan and yourself and her family a a great debt of gratitude. Thank you very much for for coming on the podcast. Thank you it's been an absolute pleasure thank you uh coming next week we'll uh we'll speak with with one of Teagan's family members welcome back to WA police confidential well I mean Hugh Scott Senior Sergeant Hugh Scott was remarkable I think in his tenacity and his commitment to bring that accountability to the to the perpetrator in this case um but there's somebody else clear in in all of this that that is also amazing as well and we discussed that and that's Tegan and Tegan's family as well we're very fortunate to be joined by Teegan's auntie Tanya Tanya thanks very much for coming on the podcast you're welcome thanks for having me and look we've heard a little bit about Tegan how would you how would you describe her Tegan was a beautiful beautiful girl she had um despite what had happened to her she had so much to give um she was happy um bubbly you know always smiling and laughing despite the tragedy that she's gone through but she's also been an inspiration to us as well we um can see you know she fought for so long um she wasn't meant to be with us as long as she was uh and that's uh credit to the love and care and the support from the hospital from my sister um and the determination that Egan had within herself to just keep on surviving. Absolutely like remarkable and we actually did hear from Hugh he he said one of the big takeaways from him from the very get-go was just how beautiful her smile was she was she had the biggest smile and her eyes lit up and it didn't matter what was going on in your day as soon as you saw Tegan all that just went away and it she she just shines like a diamond she was she was just absolutely beautiful absolutely um the fact the fact that 15 years after this terrible assault on Tegan that you find yourself in this situation where she's she's after all of her fight and you know and and her her beautiful attitude everything else yeah that she's died as a result of those injuries was there any doubt in your mind at that moment that that those two things that assault and her death were connected a hundred percent um we Tegum wasn't meant to survive right from back in 2004 right from when it happened um so it was always a matter of um you know we don't you know we don't know when she was going to pass but we knew that due to the injuries from the assault that the time would come it's just unfortunate um it happened um not long after her 18th birthday is that um how does that I mean make you feel I mean knowing that Teagan this beautiful as you said happy inspirational tough little cookie that her her legacy is now that other families other victims of crime now maybe years after the fact decades even have a shot at justice do you think that that's something she would like absolutely and I feel she would be super proud of the work that's been done by Detective Scott he the support that he's given us as a family through the whole process right from the get-go has been impeccable um I don't think that if it wasn't for his hard work and dedication and the commitment that he had to his job and to us um we would never have got the justice that we did. And Tanya the very last thing I want to ask and look this Hugh Hugh is very um as as he is as you know he was a he's an absolute classy gentleman and an amazing man and and he sort of I I sensed he was quite emotional himself he said that right towards the end he visited he visited yes christy tegan's mother in hospital yeah the day Christ was emotional um I know for my sister because at that point she couldn't really talk but she knew who he was and I know through her eyes I could see how grateful and the gratitude that she had to him to be able to bring the perpetrator to court and to justice to get justice for her daughter and for herself and for her sister Courtney I I know that was really comforting to my sister to have Hugh there to pretty much say her goodbye and thank you even though she couldn't talk but um knowing that he was brought to justice um I feel it was then my sister felt it was time for her to let go and go and be with Tegan and you know off the record we are so grateful for the dedication the hard work the commitment the care that he has given us as a family not just when Teagan passed but right through even now his support has been impeccable and he really really deserves an award for his achievements and he's just an amazing amazing person but he's also a fantastic detective you sure we can't put that on the record because that was pretty cool. No you can put it on the record 100% tenure um I just and look and he was so complimentary about you and your whole family and your patience your understanding throughout that really difficult long 18 month process um and and you know the the fact that you're all just such amazing people despite the tragedy that you've you've endured. So from from all of us here at the Western Australia Police Force thank you very much.
SPEAKER_04You're welcome thank you for having me and I hope if there's families out there that they know that they can go down this path and they can get justice and get accountability for from the perpetrator just don't give up that's all I say don't give up don't give up uh Tiny thank you so much for your time so Joey back in episode 13 you might have briefly remembered me mentioning a pretty massive drug bust. Vaguely so it was where 10 people were charged 120 kilos of illicit drugs were seized and more than a million dollars in cash.
SPEAKER_05Not ringing any bells actually nothing but go on go on because there's going to be so many seizures here at the West China Police Force I'm kidding I'm kidding that was a great job. Go on.
SPEAKER_04But luckily we have acting inspector Craig Mallers and Detective senior constable Jeremy Gibson joining us to talk us through this this pretty big job. This this was one of the biggest ones I think we've seen in quite some time. Maybe acting inspector Mallers tell us a little bit about this job.
SPEAKER_02Yeah so I probably the best place for us to start is around the Jocta. So this was run out of our Joint Organised Crime Task Force which is um one of the teams within our serious organised crime division um which is where um Jeremy's Chow as he's uh affectionately known works and um so the Joint Organised Crime Task Force is a basically a combination of multiple agencies that come together um to really deliver on those um identifying those targets those networks those that are involved in moving illicit commodities and um it gives us the ability to to bring all of our resources to the table. So we've got a lot of partners in that agency in different agencies and um and this job sort of came there. So the JOCTIFS been back up and running for I think about 18 months um and it's replicated all around the country. So um there's some slight deviations in the different states but in WA um we've got the the multi-agency model and this was the job AFP yeah so we've got the border force we've got Ostrack we've got the ACIC as well as some other crime investigation commission intelligence commission which is obviously the financial side um it just gives us that ability to tap into the federal um and also national and international resources.
SPEAKER_05And intelligence I guess for everyone's got a little piece of the jigsaw puzzle I guess.
SPEAKER_02Yeah so I think I think we all have we're all experts in our own field and we all bring different things to the table including the WA police force. So I think that's what is that works really well in that environment it just gives us access to the whole age all of the agencies and all of their um all of their skills and cool that's great.
SPEAKER_04And that came in handy obviously for this job Tree tell us a little bit about how you were able to kind of use your partnerships in Jocdef to to bring down an entire criminal network.
SPEAKER_03Yeah well certainly um across this operation uh we're able to work closely with the South Australian Jockdiff um with a strong connection within this network um to Adelaide and having them on board we engaged them early um they were able to provide um I guess current and active intelligence that led to us being able to intercept a couple of cars coming across the border with um drugs on board.
SPEAKER_05What was the sort of the you know the how did you sort of come across the fact that maybe there was a criminal network that was operating it sounds like across different states. What was your sort of your your suspicion in the at the outset?
SPEAKER_03Well we receive as an agency uh a lot of intelligence um that comes in all shapes and sizes and forms um and then once you sort of package that together you can look at proactively trying to um infiltrate the networks and trying to decipher how they operate and that's basically how we started this job.
SPEAKER_04We had a target that we were uh looking into um we explored all of his associations, networks um and I guess the real starting point for this job was uh monitoring the movement of the cash um and how those illicit funds would get um laundered essentially what was unique about this job in terms of being able to to kind of take down the people that really were were a massive part in in running this criminal network?
SPEAKER_02Yeah so we find uh in our line of work that it's very difficult to get the um sort of head of the syndicate uh they almost always don't go hands on with illicit commodities whether it's drugs or um large amounts of cash uh and they basically hide um in the background and pull the strings and coordinate other people uh to do their work for them and they're the ones who take all the risk um the way we sort of operated with this investigation we were able to um tie that person into the offending as well um whilst also identifying that network and uh slowly chipping away at it until um it came to a resolution what was the network i i'm I'm I feel like we're missing that uh that that sort of what what exactly was their business yeah so I suppose with this one we're um the the interesting part for this was is that we had that initial intelligence package around this person um that was suspicious it might be a suspicious just about yeah so I mean my I mean we rely very heavily on the community to come forward and give us that information um you know it may be a suspicious transaction that's seen in a park or a car park or something that doesn't look right essentially um you know people that have got wealth beyond their means they live a high lifestyle they've got nice cars nice homes but they don't appear to work and those type of things so all of that information comes into the the Joctaf or in this case the Joctaf or into our other squads at serious organized crime and what the um analysts are able to do is piece all that together and build a bit of a picture of you know this person's a worthy target that we need to look at. So based on all of the reporting we identified this was a this person was a person of interest to us and um someone who we thought was involved. So rather than just try and arrest that person which is a challenging anyway we want to actually try and completely dismantle the network so that was where we we go to work really and there's a lot of stuff that we unfortunately would love to be able to go into but can't stuff that happens in the background where you know supported by a lot of covert services and other things that come together to help us and and members of the community that build that picture and then from there we're able to identify or try and attempt to identify the networks. So the networks are everything from the importation of those illicit commodities the people that transport them the people that store them package them repackage them distribute distribution networks as well as those that are people are doing the actual dealing collecting the cash and then really watching that cash go back and whether that's through money laundering um cash to cryptocurrency those type of things and so during so what you're saying effectively now and I apologise because I I needed like the you know the the criminal network guide for dummies over here just but but the uh so the syndicate was was effectively in South Australia and WA and they were sending drugs across the border?
SPEAKER_03They were this syndicate was national so um we there was arrests made um m mostly in WA but a a couple of those people were um from SA. There's also some people arrested in New South Wales that were linked to this crew as well. So any any sort of I mean you know was this just an independent outfit or did they have links to other kind of syndicates around the Southeast Asia or the way it works is basically when um you talk about a coordinator they get to a certain level where they kind of leverage off other people in their position right so they might have someone who imports the drugs and their main supplier but they also might have weeks where they're not able to fill their quota and they reach out to these other people at the same level. So um they kind of all at some point will cross paths with each other, work together, move cash for each other um so they're kind of interconnected in WAM over East it might be a little bit different but WA is so small that um they kind of all know each other and have to work together to to get stuff in and and then move it.
SPEAKER_05If you were a criminal then and you're listening to this podcast like and subscribe criminals um but you know maybe you're listening from jail preferably would you then be worried that every time you guys make a big bust, given that they work so closely together that someone might be potentially assisting police with the next big bust which might be you well we have all sorts of ways of um gathering intelligence uh that would be one way that that could happen but um and you can sort of piece it together with intelligence that we've gathered elsewhere um and come up with a picture um which gives you an idea on who is doing what in the state and how they're getting it in. So this is Sydney we will allege how were they operating? Was it drugs in from somewhere street dealers how were they laundering the money how would we allege that this was operating?
SPEAKER_03So this particular crew um they were getting their drugs in from the eastern states uh they were using um multiple methods but one main one was driving it across um and they were also known to use what we call flyers um and that's someone who transports either drugs or cash via just a standard domestic flight and there's probably other ways that we're not aware of as well but they're they're just two ways that they were getting it through. In terms of the money they they were sending some cash back over East which would be to um pay for their bills to the suppliers over there and then they were also using it to transfer into cryptocurrency um and that in our opinion would be to pay the suppliers who are offshore. Gotcha. Gotcha.
SPEAKER_06Okay.
SPEAKER_04And so obviously this um comes to a head. How does it all kind of eventuate to 10 people ultimately being charged?
SPEAKER_05Arrest arrest time.
SPEAKER_02I guess one of the complexities with these jobs is that we can't ever let drugs into the community. So it's it's a bit of a it's a bit of an unusual situation where the team are trying to trying to find out the best way in and identify the network and identify all of the key people but in the same time we can't allow any of the commodity into the community.
SPEAKER_05Clock's ticking clocks ticking.
SPEAKER_02So they the team has to get really creative about how they you know take different um arrests and resolution phases um so we can able to really build that full picture but in the main in the same time keep the the community safe. The thing with these jobs particularly in relation to you know it's a live job that's ongoing. So it's constantly it's almost sometimes hourly changes. So the investment by the team when you're running a job like this for three months you you're watching and you're learning and you're and you're continually changing scenarios and and strategies and and almost responding to what they do and how they operate um I think that sometimes is the real challenge. Oh fascinating though as well it's it's really dynamic and the and the team has to stay really agile in the way they respond to to what's happening.
SPEAKER_05Do you have a a wall in the office with strings connecting people and you know as you take them take one down you take the picture down you cross it off or something they can do that electronically now advanced just I imagine it's pretty pretty rewarding and certainly we are recruiting so if you're interested uh you could head over to our website.
SPEAKER_04Let's join forces.
SPEAKER_05Absolutely uh always looking for for more future detectives right yeah absolutely yeah always um what does a million dollars of cash look like is it like a duffel bag is it a suitcase is a boot I'm just curious it's probably not as big as you think it yeah you can get it into a um was it 23 kilos something checked luggage I think 20 is about meal.
SPEAKER_02Yeah I mean it's a nice problem to have but it is a nice problem I was about to say you don't need to pay for extra baggage next time you bring a million dollars uh yeah somewhere that's exactly right excellent the worst part is counting it oh really gentlemen is there anything that we missed that you you would like to add about this particular takedown this case um no I think the unique thing is with the Jockef it's just that ability to to really um look so we even with this job we even had some connections offshore um that we you know we were able to reach in through the AFP to um to one of the country in Southeast Asia that had some connections and it just gives us the ability to pick up the phone and and you know someone in Queen I think at one stage um one of the targets who drove a vehicle across was up in Queensland so we were able to reach into the Queensland Joctaff and you know within within as much as a matter of minutes they're deploying for us and they're going and doing a CCTV canvas and and similarly in in South Australia. So I think that ability just to reach in nationally and internationally is has made it made the team really effective. And and I mean we don't stop there either like for us whilst we we're really happy we've identified and dismantled this network there are other connections we still want to work on where the the actual source of these drugs has come from and um you know we're already well and truly into the next two three jobs after this one.
SPEAKER_05So the guy who you arrested was who was sort of in charge of this thing. Yeah. What was his reaction? Was he surprised?
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah you could say that yeah um and this is what we're talking about earlier in terms of this is the type of person that you don't normally get on a brief so um they think that they're distance away enough that they're safe and untouchable yeah and other people are the ones who are taking all the risks so yeah I think uh he was fairly surprised and then also confident that um nothing would come of it um and then probably a little bit surprised and shocked.
SPEAKER_04So and how did that feel?
SPEAKER_03Um yeah it felt good like you you worked towards a goal for um you know a number of months and while the job was operationally active for like three months you know like you have to actually put the work in to identify who's worth our time especially at the Choctaff because we have a bit of a different um lens on who we actually target. So to identify someone come up with a strategy and a plan on how he wanted to um I you know work out his network and things like that and then to progress it through to a point where you get this type of result. It's pretty satisfying.
SPEAKER_04Well congratulations.
SPEAKER_05Yeah and look in in honor of the great work that you guys have done um I'm gonna do a little bit of recycling. So we had another segment equally as good as this one I I think but maybe maybe not as good but it was it was a good one. And we'd plan to offer them a a song from the WA police pipe band a cover song. Now I'm gonna go into what that segment was but for whatever reason it was going to be our house by uh UK scar band The Madness and it was a bagpipe version of that. Now because they've already gone and done that and you guys have come in and I didn't realize how cool it was and we want to give you guys a song now I'm gonna make that fit so I'm gonna hear me out this national syndicate has come into WA they've come into our house and you guys have uh showed them how it's done. So this one's for you guys in your team thank you very much for your good work our house by the WA Police Pipe Band thanks very much see you next time guys thanks for having us this is WA Police Confidential Welcome back to WA Police Confidential you may recall that we're running something at the moment on our social media and here on the podcast called Takedown of the Year People's Choice Awards. We're not out to demean criminals we're not happy that we have to arrest criminals but police officers at their very core of what they do is about commun keeping the community safe and that means arresting people and we want to acknowledge some good jobs done. Joining us today to talk about that Taz Eto again you might have might have seen him on the block um we're just going to pull out every single time until use the plug when we can use the plug when we can um yeah and he's gonna talk us through some arrests I just want to quickly point one thing out and that is that you can go onto our socials and you can vote for what you think is the arrest of the year the takedown of the year and the winner will be announced at our recognition of excellence awards in a couple of months. Because this is this is true crime in real time as we do it here on a weekly basis that means that sometimes operational matters will come into play and last week we actually did have to take down one of our takedowns videos um for operational reasons. So if we can get it back up we will but this is this is the nature of policing it is dynamic things happen we got to respond to it.
SPEAKER_01No it is exactly what you said Joey it's it's the nature of policing and some things time some things times we do need to take these things down. The importance of what you said there was we're not we're not glorifying tackles we're not glorifying the in the nature of the takedown we're highlighting the very real situations that these coppers are finding themselves in and praising them for their ability to make these split second decisions to people that otherwise don't want to be brought to justice. These people are bad people that have done the wrong thing and they want to avoid being brought to justice and it's really important that while we're watching these videos just put yourselves in the victim shoes um this is someone that's done wrong by someone else if you were that victim you'd want them brought to justice.
SPEAKER_05That's our job. All right let's talk about some some good old fashioned justice.
SPEAKER_01I'm excited for these three what do we got well the the you know authorities quinana police have attempted to stop a motorbike um in the well art area um obviously traveling in danger spreads putting not only their life at risk but the risks of other people and I always like to bring it back back to home. If you think about yourself these people are out on the road causing dramas themselves but also if you're out on the road if your family if your young ones are out on the road could also bring um dramas to them as well so both the rider and the passenger fled on foot off the bike once been stopped by police but quickly located and arrested they were charged with reckless driving no authority to drive possessing a weapon and failing to fly the direction to stop from police but the takedown more importantly is and again you can't script these you know it's just what what these coppers are dealing with and these guys have done a great job so um the first one gets captured pretty quickly by the guys on the road unbelievable effort the second one goes missing a bit all right so and a foot chase is and the the the helicopter footage from this is actually phenomenal okay and we've got that up on our social night vision I think isn't it yeah yeah so cool air wing have done a fantastic job pol air up there and they're they're such a help when they get up there um so foot chase long foot chase um end up finding the the crook up in a tree up in a tree up in a tree so he actually had to climb down to be taken down yes I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say not a great idea maybe you should lift your life of crime no just branch out this guy it's more small sort of take on that I think Taz stop reaching for your pepper spray and taser I'm sorry I will stop I will stop I will I will stop um you can vote for that one if you like that's good it's good what else we got uh criminal damage um this is an event that that took uh place in Perth so um and I want to give uh credit to the Perth police officers that deal with um the the the local metropolitan Perth region it is one of the toughest regions to police um it's where our most metropolitan coppers are um and yes your Monday to Thursday can be pretty tame at times but your Friday to Sunday is is when all the action happens and for 24 hours a day seven days a week the guys are out there so uh uh a male as you can see on the footage here um has caused damage to in the local area of Perth the man was removed um oh sorry the man removed a drainage grate from the street outside the venue and used it to smash a glass door the man left the scene and after speaking with members of the public is that what's that I said that's not great sorry sorry I did say I'd stop kicking Taser's coming out as well um great work from the from the coppers there the suspect was located and detained um and this is the thing this when I say like you can't ever script an arrest whether it's the first time you're arresting someone or sometimes it's the 50th time you've arrested this person you can never script it so um just talking to the guy he's on his phone um and then he's proceeded to just out of nowhere run away from police after being legally and lawfully detained is legal just absolutely and this happens and um look it's not going to be uncommon where they sometimes get away. In this scenario this person was probably under the influence of of other substances has made the decision to run away from the coppers um the coppers you know when we're carrying 15 kilos sometimes worth gear gone straight after him and and it's resulted in a pretty substantial takedown which you know as you see by the footage here is is just absolutely fantastic work from the guys and the thing is once you've become arrested once you are placed under arrest the investigation side of things is still ongoing so you've not been charged with anything yet and sometimes you know we'll have to make decisions you'll you'll sometimes you can get unarrested we need to do all our due processes so there's not a big there's not the biggest drama in the world to get arrested. Fleeing after being arrested is a big drama that sounds like a really bad idea for a whole range of reasons including the fact that you but you but you get I mean you're gonna get tackled potentially at the end of the day you need to be brought to justice and and this is why you know he the old man's going to be waking up with a headache today because of a silly decision that he's made to run away. Yeah um and and you know props to the Perth coppers they're out there fighting the good fight every day of the week and it's just a good way at this this sort of segment is a good initiative from you guys to to bring it up because in a an industry that otherwise tears us down sometimes it's a good way to promote great policing in the community and this guy's been brought to justice.
SPEAKER_04And you can check out that video and vote if you see fit on our socials.
SPEAKER_05Do we have a third one this week? We do have a third one just quickly do it some context for that I think that that guy the great guy who's not so great I think he was he was also trying to fight people is is what I'm I'm told um just a bit of context there. Including yelling into at one point I think the time zone in in Northbridge trying to fight people and I'm I just like this Street Fighter you know just there's an easier way to do this. Yeah that doesn't involve that takedown element.
SPEAKER_01Yeah all right okay so uh the last one the intent the intention to escape this is this occurred um in the armored armor at an armadale address uh a coordinated response from the canine unit and they're uh a RAS we call their rapid apprehension squad is RAS either an offender cut his electronic monitoring device off and absconded from an armadale address um obviously these are really like really hard people a lot of the court has decided they've they need to be monitored yeah in the community yeah if they've been granted bail granted bail but with conditions and if you have a granted bail you always do have conditions this is obviously a higher arm offender who's been granted bail on the provisions that he will wear an electron electronic monitoring device uh which he's deemed uh he will cut off and flee from the address that he's meant to be staying at following a search man was locating in Kensington after attempting to flee by jumping a fence uh before being taken into custody and you'll see this footage and this footage is a perfect representation of multiple business units across Wave are working together. You've got canine you've got detectives from the apprehension squad and you've also got general duty police officers looking for this guy who's obviously done wrong in the community but has been given that chance to go back out to the community with some conditions while he's awaiting trial and he's breached those conditions. So three, four sometimes five business units will get together to bring this person to justice and what a result it was to surround that address he's again attempted to flee and it's this copper has put himself in one of the most dangerous situations one on one with a crook who's also probably two three meters up in the air he's leaping over the fence isn't he's leaping over the fence and you could almost are you a cricket fan am I yeah cricket fan yeah I mean what a catch what it it was classic catch it was a classic catch.
SPEAKER_05It this the crook leaps over the fence and you know you could almost slow mo it couldn't you because the the the copper's just there and just boom had some Titanic music behind it and it actually it'd be quite an event.
SPEAKER_01No but it was it was great work and it just again it highlights just how how good those guys operated and how well structured and yes that like he was the one that got the arrest and um but it was it was very much a team effort and and that that was that'd probably be up there as one of my favorites this week to be fair.
SPEAKER_05Check it out on our socials. Yeah you can vote there and um hopefully we'll have Taz back with us next week if he agrees to come back. Absolutely just don't run no yeah that's the that's the lesson from this podcast don't run Taz this is uh WA Police Confidential Thank you for listening to another episode of WA Police Confidential before we go Claire uh what's happening in the news at the moment is well Joey it's been a pretty big week of news detectives from Homicide Squad have actually charged a 26 year old man following an investigation into the death of a 49 year old man in Catanning.
SPEAKER_04Now that 26 year old man has been charged with numerous offenses including failing to stop and ensure assistance received after an incident occasioning death. So he's due to appear before court today. Meanwhile Cannington detectives have charged an 18 year old man as a result of their investigation into an assault of a traffic warden in Ross Moyne which occurred yesterday on Tuesday. So that 18 year old man from Shelley has been charged with stealing and assaulting a public officer. He's due to appear before Armadell court on the 8th of June.
SPEAKER_05Now Joey last week we had a an interesting history fact uh UK serial killer infamous Jack the Ripper and his connection to WA Yep okay well in July of 1891 there was a bloke by the name of Frederick Dieming in Liverpool England who horrifically murdered his wife and four children uh we're not going to say how uh and buried them under a concrete floor it it got him uh I guess connected if you will um by Fleet Street by the media over there as a possible suspect and perhaps maybe many were speculating that perhaps he was Jack the Ripper whose identity has never been 100% confirmed. By December of that same year I'm assuming he must have he must have fled um because he's arrived in Australia he's he's in Melbourne he's got a new wife and just before Christmas Eve he's also killed her and buried her under the house but before he could be arrested in Melbourne Deming had travelled here to Western Australia where he was posing as a mining engineer named Baron Swanston. He became engaged to another woman here in WA and suddenly at the very opportune moment before she could also fall victim to foul play she recognized him from a newspaper report the Crime Stoppers of its day I'm guessing about the murder in Victoria so she used the telegrams telegrams that he'd been sending her went to police and they tracked him down to Southern Cross here in Western Australia where he was arrested and it it turns out that um they were able to use this to track back all the way to England some of the jewelry that had belonged to his first wife and they were able to recover those those bodies of his first family as well. It just continues though so deming who is not Jack the Ripper but many in the press are speculating is Jack the Ripper is extradited back to Victoria where he's hanged in May of 1892 at the same jail the old Melbourne jail where Ned Kelly the Bush Ranger had been hung just a few years prior. One last very bizarre little footnote to this story his defence lawyer was at that time a bloke named Alfred Deakin who would go on to be the Australian Prime Minister. He argued at that trial that his client would be prejudiced against by sensational media reports that he was in fact Jack the Ripper, which we now know he was not next week's history fact hopefully is not as as alarming as that one because that was there was a lot there but but Claire uh next week we're gonna answer this question how old do you think you need to be to run a country police station I I don't know. Find out next week and you'll have to tune in my police confidential wild you can't make this stuff up can you yeah really there's no segue between those two history facts there really isn't there really isn't no no um don't forget to go on and uh socials and you can like or share uh the takedown of the year that if you like it if you think it's a worthy worthy entrant um for the People's Choice Awards and um once again WA police pipe band taking us out of this very long and uh interesting episode I think it's been pretty interesting with our house by band this is WA police confidentiality was produced by Joe Garrett, Danny Vandeve, Lisa Evans and Sam Ooh Sound editing by Joe and Danny and Sam, cover song by the WA Police Pipe Band and Cheesy Podcast theme music by Joey Canzaro.
SPEAKER_04By the way, why just listen to a podcast about policing when you could actually be doing it let's join forces.wa.gov.au
