Ep 23 - Crook Caught in Fish and Chip Shop Using a Sketch

Transcript

SPEAKER_09 0:00

This podcast discusses real life crimes and law enforcement matters. It may include detailed descriptions of criminal activity, traumatic incidents, and other content that could be confronting or distressing, particularly for victim survivors. Listener discretion is advised. If you find any of these topics upsetting, please consider whether this content is right for you and seek support if needed.

SPEAKER_08 0:30

Welcome to WA Police Confidential. I'm May Green.

SPEAKER_04 0:33

I'm Joey Katonzaro, and on today's, well, this week's episode should I say, you're gonna find out what can land you 10 years in jail just by looking at it on the internet.

SPEAKER_08 0:46

Yes, there was also a serious crime that was solved by a hardworking detective who put her mind and really everything into it, didn't she?

SPEAKER_04 0:56

It involves a fish and chip shop.

SPEAKER_08 0:58

Fish and chip shop.

SPEAKER_04 0:59

Uh uh glitter so much glitter. Glitter was the glitter. Um a sketch, an old school sketch artist um forensic sketch, is that what it's called?

SPEAKER_08 1:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:10

Yep.

SPEAKER_08 1:11

And the elk.

SPEAKER_04 1:12

Yes. We get you're going to get to meet the elk. Um I think we should leave it at the code name?

SPEAKER_08 1:18

Is it a code name?

SPEAKER_04 1:19

Is it a is it a handle? Is it an undercover kind of thing, or is it an actual Canadian um memo?

SPEAKER_08 1:26

You'll find out. And we'll also have news with Claire Sienta.

SPEAKER_04 1:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_08 1:30

And that's all for this week's.

SPEAKER_04 1:31

Never good news. It's never good news. Never good news. To be fair. But as she would always say, it is good to see that police are out there sorting these things out.

SPEAKER_08 1:41

This is confidential.

SPEAKER_06 1:46

You're listening to WA Police Confidential. Could you identify a child abductor from a rough sketch? No CCTV, no photo, just a witness description and the memory of someone who saw them. It sounds unlikely, but in one remarkable investigation, a forensic sketch became the key to identifying the alleged defender. Somehow, Joey, efficient chipshop played an important role in bringing that case to a breakthrough. Joining us today is Senior Sergeant Cal Greenaway from the Diffio to talk more about it. Boss, thanks for joining us. And I believe you're on leave and you've come in for this, so we do appreciate your time. Firstly, what is Diffio?

SPEAKER_04 2:26

Diffio, um, sorry, I'm half Italian as everyone knows. But it's actually pronounced Diffio. Okay. Well, it's like uh whenever I've whenever I've uh met anyone from um ASIO, the Australian Security Intelligence Organization, and they never say their last name. They're always like, hi, I'm Natalie from ASIO. And I'm like, from ASIO, what part of Italy are you from? Sorry, I've derailed this already. Uh yeah, Diffio, Diffio. Let's let's get real here.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

That's okay. So DIFIO stands for District Forensic Investigation Officer. And so I'm the officer in charge or manager of 103 diffeos, which is what it's the acronym is short for, um, uh across the state. So I have 103 staff, roughly, from Cunanara to Albany and right across Metropolitan. And that's what they do every day is they do volume crime, they do, which is burglary, stolen motor vehicles, um, but they do some other things these days as well. In today's environment, they do help out with major crime and serious crime. Um, in regional, my diffeos do the major crime, the serious crime, and the volume crime because they're it.

SPEAKER_04 3:46

So we took in like fingerprinting?

SPEAKER_02 3:48

Fingerprinting, photographing, swabbing for DNA, collecting exhibits, um, yeah, so very CSI. Very CSI.

SPEAKER_04 4:02

Yeah. Um, I just want to say thank you to to you then, because uh, as I mentioned on the podcast last week, my car got broken into and uh a couple of um your diffhios came and they were fantastic, really good, really professional, cool people.

SPEAKER_07 4:15

Yeah, good.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

That's what I like to hear.

SPEAKER_07 4:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:17

Um, okay. This particular case though, we're talking about what is effectively it's it's almost a dying art form, I think, with modern technology um these days. But the sketch artist, the forensic sketch artist, where a a witness would come in and say, I you know, I saw a man, he had a curly moustache and a monocle, you know, five foot nine, unshaven, um, as well as the moustache, I mean, of course, uh, and a feather in his cap. And they're gonna just draw this thing. And it has that's the only way, or that was the only way for a for a lot of crimes, um, that you know, we'd have any leads.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

Yeah, correct. It literally was a hand sketch from a description that a victim of crime has um, you know, can provide. Um they didn't have what they have now back then, you know, with the composites where they create that from a computer.

SPEAKER_06 5:15

So this case was back in the 90s, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_02 5:17

It was, I think it was around 97, 98, somewhere there. Um yeah, so that really was in the old sketch days.

SPEAKER_04 5:25

And it's it is such an incredible skill. And we actually are uh in a couple of weeks, we're gonna hear from an absolute legendary sketch artist, um, who I think is coming on maybe two weeks' time. Um But this was one of his sketches. Um, can you tell us the scenario? What what was I know I know Nate kind of touched upon it, but um how did you end up using this sketch?

SPEAKER_02 5:51

So I got to work in the morning. I was working at Midland Diffio, or back then it was called Socco, which stood for Scenes of Crime Officer. Uh so I was working there and I came in in the morning and everything was chaotic, and we my little unit sat upstairs next to the detectives because we work very closely with detectives even today. We we're sort of their bread and butter to give them to give them investigative opportunities when we can. So on this particular day, I've turned up for work, there's a bit of chaos going on, and the detective senior sergeant said to me, Um, there's been an attempt of a child abduction in uh Hazelmere. Could you whip out there and have a look? And as they always used to say, and I think a lot of people do, just throw some of your dust around and make things happen.

SPEAKER_04 6:50

But you sound like Tinkerbell at the moment, but yeah, go on.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

Yeah. So I went straight there uh as soon as I had this briefing. And when I turned up, I knocked on the door and an elderly man met me at the door, and he was the grandfather of the young girl to whom this had happened. But he was painting the inside of the house, so there was wet paint everywhere. So that immediately made me a bit tense because I thought, well, how am I going to fingerprint areas with wet paint? Impossible. So I then asked, where is the girl? And the grandfather said, Well, she's not here. She's gone to Whiteman Park for the day with her mother to de-stress. I had a bit of a look around, but I thought, you know what, I'll wait till they get back. So I've got proper insight and information from the person who actually experienced this event. So eventually they came back, and apparently to get them to come back, they were on the train that goes around Whiteman Park. So somebody on a microphone, megaphone system had to call out for the train to come back, and then they had to get these people off the train to bring them to the house.

SPEAKER_04 8:05

I thought that was going somewhere very different. You've got to say they commandeered that little train. But anyway, please continue.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

Yeah, so uh they came back and I got into a conversation with the mother and with the young girl, and what had happened was sometime between 1 and 3 a.m., uh the little girl was asleep in bed, but she was unwell at the time. So someone has come into her room, picked her up out of her bed, and started to walk out of her bedroom and into the hallway.

SPEAKER_04 8:41

Good gosh.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

Um, she has opened her eyes, thinking initially it was her father picking her up to take her down to her parents' bedroom where she was getting her medication around this time. I don't, I can't recall what was wrong with the child, but anyway, she needed to have this medication at that time. She's opened her eyes to look at this what he she thought was her father, and in the hallway with the light, and it wasn't her father. She screamed. The male person dropped her and he ran off. They then heard, because dad's got up and come racing down the hallway along with mum, they then heard the sound of a squealing wheel and like a very small, maybe four-cylinder engine take off. So remember, this is the middle of the night into the very early hours of the morning. So there wasn't a lot of traffic around. So it was quite distinctive that sound. Um, so that was really helpful. So I went into the young girl's room and I collected some exhibits, her pajamas and bits and pieces that she'd had on, her bedding and all of that. Um, and what I did notice about her room, because she was about seven, was that she obviously liked playing with glitter like a lot of little girls do. So there was glitter everywhere. It was on her, it was on the sheets, it was, and she had glitter pots on her um chest of drawers in her room. So I I did my best there with the wet paint and all the rest of it, and collected a few exhibits. Then the detectives arrived. Um, I also managed to fingerprint the outside of the sliding glass door. Mum was blaming herself because it was summer. She'd gone outside and hung the washing out late, had come back in, and had forgotten to lock the door. So he's made his entry through an unlock sliding door. That was according to Mum. So I printed all of that, and whatever prints I could get, I lifted because I thought that was, you know, well, I knew that was the best thing to do. Regardless of whether it was all of the family, that didn't matter. At least we had something. Um, and back then we didn't really do a lot of swabbing and all of that. Very different now, but back then it was not wasn't like that.

SPEAKER_06 11:06

So DNA swabbing.

SPEAKER_02 11:07

Correct. Yeah, there was not a lot of that. So, in fact, if any, I don't think there was any. So it really was just relying on exhibits and fingerprinting and photographing and some other types of investigative practices that I'll get to in a minute.

SPEAKER_04 11:22

It is so this has something to do with glitter there, doesn't it? It does. As soon as you said that, I was like, yeah, this is getting good.

SPEAKER_06 11:29

Joey's Joey's got a sparkle in his eye.

SPEAKER_04 11:32

You better believe it. All right, please, please hit my rest of it. I've just got everything. It was a roller coaster ride of emotion. The kid getting taken out of bed is terrifying in the house. It's just yeah, awful.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

And unnerving for everybody, not just the family, but in a small community in a small suburb like Hazelmere, that whole thing spread like wildfire. So you can imagine how distressed and how unnerved a lot of people and families became. Because obviously nobody had any idea who did this, why did it happen, how did it happen, and what was the drive behind it.

SPEAKER_04 12:07

That's a that's a good cliffhanger right there. And uh we're gonna pick this right up uh right after this break. Because I tell you, if uh if you're liking what you're hearing, why don't you jump over to Let's Join Forces, our website, and potentially put your application in. You can also solve crimes that it may or may not have glitter um as a as a key component.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

All units, the WA police force is looking for people. All commons of people, people in the tech, in the comedian, in the form of people, and horse people, people who like limitablocks, without planes, helicopters, and bullets. People who are big on community, helping others and stumbling true common, not just watching it, you know. Ordinary people who are up for doing extraordinary things.

SPEAKER_04 12:50

If you can be one of these people, you've found your people. So much, let's join forces. Welcome back to Confidential. Sorry, that was we we had to take a moment there because it was getting so intense. You said the whole suburb, everybody was was on edge after this attempted child abduction. You've got um some sort of glitter lead. You've dust, you've thrown your dust ram, as they say, on the on the sliding glass door. There's a car that they heard squeals of tires in the night, small four-cylinder engine. What happens next?

SPEAKER_02 13:22

All right, so the detectives turn up and they speak to the family because now dad's come home around the time the detectives arrived, grandpa's stopped painting, so everything is okay for the minute. So the detectives talk to this young girl and her family, and it was during that conversation that they actually said, Look, you know, do you think you you're up to coming and talking to a police artist? And he can do a sketch of what you saw. You can describe that to him. There was no pressure, there was no making her feel scared or uncomfortable. Um, and she agreed to do that. Yeah, so I left and went on with my normal duties. I, from memory, she went in with her mother, and the police artist was actually based here in police headquarters. So they came in here and she sat with him for the afternoon. And remember, she was seven. Not 17 or 27, she was seven. Yep. Just a little kid. So so that was all done and dusted for me for the day. I finished my shift and that was the end of that. So I came on shift the next morning. And I was getting because in those days too, we didn't have the computer dispatch system that we have now. So you would come in in the morning, jump onto a computer, and you would print out your jobs for the day. So I'd I'd got my jobs and I'd just check my emails, and in that was what we used to call lookout to be kept bours. And there was this sketch that this young girl had given to the police artist and that he had compiled with I don't know if he did it with a pencil or a pen or a texture, but it was purely black and white. Uh and I thought, you know what? And because I was so involved in the job, and I was the only forensic officer doing it, I was so motivated. I wanted to catch this guy myself. I love this.

SPEAKER_04 15:29

This is so good.

SPEAKER_02 15:30

In those days, forensic officers didn't wear a uniform. We wore plain clothes. But I was still determined. I thought, no way, that what you've done is horrific, and I will hunt you down.

SPEAKER_04 15:42

So I went like you had the Liam Nissan of forensic officers. I love this. Yeah. Yeah, this could be called taken. Well, nearly taken. Prints taken. Yeah. Yep. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

So uh so I went out on my um normal duties that day then with my set of jobs, but I had this sketch printed out there. So everywhere I drove, I'm looking and I'm looking and I'm going, is that you, is that you, is that you? So finally I got to a job on a fish and chip shop at around about, I think it was about lunchtime. So let's say 12, 1 o'clock. And it was an elderly couple who owned it. And I remember somebody had kicked in their glass on the bottom of their door, and obviously gone in looking for coin or cash or whatever. Um fish and chips. Or fish and chips, yes, have a cookup. So I turned up and I remember the husband and wife were behind the counter, and as I said, they were quite elderly. And on the wall behind them and above them was a TV and it was turned on and the news was on. So this job obviously had made the news because it's significant, especially a child and in Perth. So that was on. Now, as I walked in to introduce myself and tell them why I was there and what I was gonna do at the point of entry where the broken glass was, this guy walked out.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

And I looked at him as he walked out. I looked at the TV which had um the picture or the sketch up as well.

SPEAKER_02 17:36

And I looked at the elderly couple and I said, Do you think that that guy that was just here looks like that? And they went, Oh yes, dear, we think that does look a bit like him.

SPEAKER_08 17:51

No, but if they're just coming straight out of the show, you can write an episode here.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Absolutely. But bear in mind, I had my little sketch there, and I went back and looked at that because obviously it's not on the TV, so it I'm thinking distortion, am I just imagining things? So I walked outside, and next door was a little like a deli thing. I walked into that little deli and I saw him in there, and I thought, well, I'll let him do whatever he's going to do in there. I will wait outside for him.

SPEAKER_06 18:26

So And he doesn't know because you're in plain clothes. Correct. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

Wouldn't have a clue who I was, not a clue. So he walks out carrying two bags of groceries, and he walks towards a pushbike. And I said to him, I identified myself as a police officer, and I said to him, I need you to wait here with me. I need to ring some detectives who want to have a talk to you. He complied with me. He put his grocery bags down and he said, Yeah, sure. So I jumped on the radio in the police car and I called for the detectives from Midland who had the inquiry to come and meet me at that location at that fish and chip shop. Detectives turned up and I left. Well, I did the fingerprint job on the fish and chip shop, and then I left because I thought, well, this is their area now, but at least I have stopped someone that I thought matched the identicate. A significant piece of the identicate was that the person who lifted the child out of bed was wearing a beanie, and the beanie was dark blue or black, and it was had quite a high roll on it, but sat very low on his head. And he had this on. And in the sketch, he had it on. The next day, so we're now into day three since the event occurred. I get into work as per usual, nice and early, detectives call me in. And they said to me, You were right.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

No way. He is the person, but we let him go.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

And I said, Why? And they said, Because we had to do some more background checking. But we got his name, we got his address, and he gave the correct name, and he gave his correct home address. So they've obviously done their further investigative opportunities. So maybe they didn't have quite enough to charge him at that time. Correct. So albeit that they were apologizing to me, I said, no, no, no, that's okay. The fact is, we we we have a starting point.

SPEAKER_07 20:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

Purely through that little girl and the sketch.

SPEAKER_04 20:43

Amazing. And you.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

And a little bit me.

SPEAKER_04 20:47

And the fish and chip robbery.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Ma and pa and the TV and great.

SPEAKER_04 20:53

And the glitter. I'm waiting for the glitter.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

Right. So that third day now, the detectives do a bit of a search warrant on his home. In the meantime, a member of the public, because she'd also described him as wearing a woolly-style lumber jacket, member of the public found a woolly-style lumber jacket in an empty paddock or an empty drain area. Because remember it was summer. So the police downstairs rang me and said, Can you come down and get this jacket? We think it might be connected to the young girl. And I thought, now I remember she had glitter everywhere. It was on everything in her bedroom. So I had the pot, little pots of glitter that were on her chest of drawers. But anyway, I used a white backed lifter that peeled this very thick, heavy duty plastic off, and I started dabbing because the way she described, he scooped her and carried her like that out of bed.

SPEAKER_06 21:58

So in his arms. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:59

In his arms. And I thought, well, there's a thing called Locard's principle.

SPEAKER_06 22:04

Every contact leaves a trace.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

Correct. And I thought, well, let's give it a whirl. So I start dabbing on this woolly jacket, both arms, and what started coming to the surface of the woolly fibers. Glitter. Yes. Oh good. Yeah. So I saved all that on the sticking paper back onto the white backing paper. And I sent that along with the little pots of glitter to the chemistry centre.

SPEAKER_04 22:37

Did anybody say, this is no time for Arts and Craft? There goes please.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

Yeah. So that all got sent off. Um the results uh came back and they went straight to the detectives. Interestingly enough, he was after that search warrant, he was obviously taken by the detectives. He was interviewed and he was charged. But back in those days, long time ago, what they used to do in some instances was go to a crowded location, say at lunchtime, a very crowded location. And they would walk the suspect, I suppose, with detectives through the crowd. And then they would want the victim to pick out if they could. They did it at lunchtime in a very busy shopping centre in a food court. And that young girl picked him in the crowd at lunchtime in a very hectic, chaotic situation. So out of that, they went to court and he was found guilty.

SPEAKER_04 23:52

I mean, that is incre what an incredible story. Also, that little girl, what a little legend.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

Yes, well, she, it turns out, um had a photographic memory, and my understanding now, and and I'll stand corrected, but my understanding now is that she is a doctor and a surgeon who lives in Melbourne.

SPEAKER_07 24:14

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 24:16

So it's a really smart little kid. Incredible story. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

All based on a seven-year-old remembering what somebody looked like. A drawing, so glittering. And a drawing. And painting. Yeah, and the police artist to be so uh detailed from somebody sitting there describing something and coming up with that that was spot on.

SPEAKER_08 24:44

Yeah, you guys really left no stone unturned in that. Like the fact that you remembered, oh, there was glitter at the scene, oh, there was this, oh there was that.

SPEAKER_04 24:53

Something fishy in the fish shop. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

And I've always thought about that job. Lots of other jobs that I've done, but I just remember that because of the type of crime that it was. And the fact that, you know, if all that hadn't happened like that, what would have happened?

SPEAKER_06 25:08

I think we can't pass over the fact that this all boils down to you, boss. Your tenacity and your keen eye. What brought it all together?

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Well, I was very motivated. I was on a roll. KDOT TV. You're ready to go.

SPEAKER_04 25:24

Heavily invested, yeah. Yeah, you were ready to dance. I was. And in fact, um, look, I think in honor of your incredible police work and everybody else who was involved, and all of your diff yours.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

Diffios, yes. A little bit of glitter.

SPEAKER_04 25:39

A little bit of glitter in in our day. Um, everybody needs it.

unknown 25:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 25:45

This is confidential.

SPEAKER_06 25:54

Joey Meyer, what do you think that was? A real firearm or a fake one?

SPEAKER_04 25:58

I'm gonna say real. I'm gonna uh I'm gonna say fake. Just to be different from Meyer.

SPEAKER_06 26:04

Yeah, yeah. What you've heard is actually a privately manufactured firearm or a PMF, and no, that's not a radio station from the 90s. These weapons, these weapons have been used by organized crime groups across Australia, and they can almost be impossible to tell apart from a factory-made firearm. So joining us today is Detective Senior Sergeant Cam Hubbard from the Sirius and Organised Crime Division. Boss, thanks for your time. To start us off, what exactly is a PMF or a privately manufactured firearm?

SPEAKER_03 26:36

Yeah, thanks, Nate, and thanks for having me. Uh privately manufactured firearm, which I'll refer to as a PMF, is uh legally illegally manufactured firearm, but uh manufactured without any permit or license. So they are capable of of projecting uh um ammunition by a controlled explosion, they're not create created by any manufacturing processes or safety standards. The components are often fabricated, uh they can be made from or usually from uncontrolled materials, they are not manufactured to any standard or proof. Uh they basically exist outside of any regulatory framework.

SPEAKER_06 27:22

So essentially a backyard job is what you're saying. That's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 27:26

So we know these weapons or PMFs can potentially hurt other people, but can they actually hurt the people who are holding them as well?

SPEAKER_03 27:34

Yes, they can. So they're not manufactured to any standard of proof. And I've seen test fires where police have conducted controlled testing of uh one in particular, which is quite a common um PMF, and that was set up in some mechanical framework to fire safely without injury to anyone, and when that happened, the handgun itself blew apart. So that being held in someone's hand as opposed to metal framework uh would have obliterated that person's hand.

SPEAKER_04 28:08

So I think. Yeah, the Jimi Hendrix song, where you're going with that gun and no hand. No? No. No, no, no, no, it didn't work, though. I got the lyrics wrong. I hate that when it happens. I hate that.

SPEAKER_06 28:22

Um okay, so I was just thinking Janie's got a gun, but you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:27

Well, is it a PMF? Does Janie have a PMF? Yeah, look at some of these classics may not have worked in this uh in this era of um of of kind of home manufactured guns. Um yeah. Uh so who is it that's actually manufacturing these?

SPEAKER_03 28:45

There are different types of people. The technology is available to everyone. So 3D printers are available at local shops that anyone can go to and buy for legitimate purposes. However, there's certain types of people that are using them for illicit purposes and manufacturing firearms. They can be anyone from enthusiasts, intellects, people involved in crime, where they want to use them for illicit purpose.

SPEAKER_04 29:13

Not to intimidate or harm someone else, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 29:16

That's right. Essentially, they can be made to the standard of an operating firearm. So that in someone's hand has different intent. Um there is no intent where that can be a legitimate purpose, however, that's illegal.

SPEAKER_04 29:32

So, okay. Obviously, we we you know the there's uh I guess blueprint schematics, that sort of thing available, I think, on in places like the dark web. Um people are using what 3D printers and parts from overseas to make these things, I guess?

SPEAKER_03 29:51

Uh a bit of everything really. So um the blueprints uh they are available on the web. That's uh illegal to be in possession of blueprints. If we go back to the fur very first uh 3D printer firearm in 2013 in the US, and that was uh a firearm called the Liberator. So that um information was put onto the uh web. It was downloaded in the US 100,000 times in two days. Whoa. Um but one that and then it was taken down by the US Department of State. However, it's out there. And uh the possession of or access to blueprints and other firearm technology is a serious offence, which carries a 10-year penalty. So uh people may think uh on the internet that it is um not necessarily not necessarily an offence that they're committing, but once they click that button, uh they could face serious consequences.

SPEAKER_06 30:53

Jeez, that's so if you're if you're just curious, even you could be committing an offence.

SPEAKER_03 30:59

Absolutely. If you are possessed once you click on that and that drops into your computer, you're in possession of illegal material being firearm technology.

SPEAKER_04 31:08

So um we have uh uh a I'm assuming this is this is one of the the the guns that you're referring to that you've brought in here today. Can can we have a look at it and talk us through it?

SPEAKER_03 31:21

Absolutely. So that is a 3D printed firearm. It's light.

SPEAKER_04 31:26

I expected it to be heavy because I thought it was metal, but it's actually feels like it's largely plastic.

SPEAKER_03 31:31

Yes, it's 3D material. So the essentially the 3D process, and this one has been manufactured by a process which we call additive. So it's adding layers of 3D material which are fused together to make components. Several components are made in separate 3D printing processes and then assembled to what you are holding now as being a 3D printed firearm. That particular firearm uh was located in possession of a person whom we executed a search warrant in 2024. They had that, plus others, uh firearm technology being 3D printer. Uh, they've since been charged and convicted, and they are sitting in prison currently.

SPEAKER_04 32:21

Wow. There's also some terrible artwork on it, I just want to say, like, just really skulls and crossbows and stuff like that. Kind of lame looking. Like it looks like maybe like a chihuahua skull. I don't know if that was their intent, but that is that is just weird.

SPEAKER_06 32:37

But just if you had that pointed at you from a distance, Joey, could you tell the difference between that being free quilt?

SPEAKER_04 32:42

And to be honest, from what you're saying, this would be this potentially could be could be lethal in itself.

SPEAKER_03 32:49

Absolutely. And I can tell you that that one has been through testing at our ballistics unit, and that particular 3D printed firearm that you're holding now uh absolutely fires ammunition. So that's real ammunition. Real ammunition that is as real as any other manufactured firearm to a different standard. However, that has been test fired and proven to meet all definition of a firearm and capable of firing projectiles.

SPEAKER_04 33:21

Okay, this is pretty heavy, like so far, but I just wanted to break up for one second. Um, in the beginning of this segment, Nate, you know, you played some sounds and we had to guess whether it was a real or fake firearm. We're going to do that again. Yeah. Um, so um real or fake.

SPEAKER_06 33:37

You can't tell the difference.

SPEAKER_04 33:39

Can they look like water pistols? And how dangerous is that for police officers and kids and members of the community?

SPEAKER_03 33:46

Uh, every aspect of these is dangerous. The manufacturing process, testing process, uh obviously, if people are manufacturing 3D printed firearms or non-3D printed firearms, which can consist of not um uh 3D printed material but metals, uh CNC milling by um cutting away from a block of metal to make firearm parts. Um obviously obtaining ammunition is illegal without a license, so having access to ammunition whilst they are making these, uh, they are very, very dangerous in every aspect.

SPEAKER_04 34:26

Is it? I don't know, and I totally understand and and and respect that there's you know there's so many different things. I guess I just wanted to hone in on if police are suddenly presented with, you know, but what could be someone with the a toy gun, a water pistol, or someone who has a real gun that looks like a water pistol, surely that creates a whole bunch of problems. And you would think that hopefully people are responsible enough to know that that's really dangerous. Really dangerous for both officers and officer safety, but also for potentially young people in the community who might be playing with water pistols.

SPEAKER_03 35:04

Absolutely. So the imagination of what these uh PMFs look like is uh endless. So they can be made to any shape, size, colour. As you see with the patterning and the graphics on this one, it's a personal preference, or it's via the instructions that that blueprint has made that to look specifically like that. They can be colourful of all types of colours, and yeah, as you say, it's uh it's a judgment court, it's a difficult position that people can be in. Uh not just police, but members of the public as well, where they can see people holding these things. It could be legitimate child's play with water pistols, Nerf guns. We have had evidence of even Nerf guns being converted to uh operate as functioning firearms. So it is concerning, and I wouldn't say it's necessarily an emerging trend. It is here. We are in that space now where people are uh involved in the list activity with firearms uh that can look like firearms, they cannot look like firearms, but they can still function as a firearm. So it is uh difficult um space that we are in, and we are policing that space.

SPEAKER_04 36:25

I've got a question for you, Maya, because you're you're allowed like Kippin Happening, the youngest member of this crew. Um have you heard about this game, the water pistol game?

SPEAKER_08 36:35

Senior assassin, senior assassin.

SPEAKER_04 36:38

Senior assassin, I think it is. And um it just strikes me that you know, because it's sort of something that's been available in other places, and it seems like it's very harmless fun. Kids, kids, young people with water pistols, how does it work?

SPEAKER_08 36:51

So basically there's an app that kind of has everyone's location on it, um, who's participating in the game. Uh, and the goal is to kind of go out to these places. Um, you click that you've found whatever person and then record yourself shooting that person with a water pistol. With a water pistol. With a water pistol.

SPEAKER_07 37:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 37:10

Um, and then that person's classified as being dead uh in the game at least.

SPEAKER_04 37:16

Well, I can tell you right now that there's been at least one instance here in Perth where um you know there was a uh a call uh to police because someone was concerned they'd seen someone outside the house with a firearm, and it was actually somebody playing what that that game or a similar game with a water pistol. So obviously um uh that uh young man had uh um quite quite a fright because I I think it was um the regional operations group who responded and they they don't have water pistols. They bought a bigger gun, they bought bigger, bigger real guns. Bigger real guns. So just everyone just you know calm the farm, be careful, you know, in this environment. I don't I don't want to be a a killjoy or anything like that, because it does sound like a really fun or game, but uh we've got to be careful, right?

SPEAKER_03 38:06

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 38:08

Um penalties? What sort of penalties you mentioned 10 years before, even just for clicking. I mean, surely, surely we've locked people up for this. Um, not just old maint who had this gun with terrible artwork on it, the Chihuahua skull gun.

SPEAKER_03 38:24

Yeah, so firearm technology it carries a uh 10-year imprisonment penalty. Firearm technology includes uh machinery such as 3D printers, CNC metal milling machines, it includes blueprints, be that handwritten or digital, it includes a handwritten drawing or instruction or a plan or a template. So, really, that's quite open to the interpretation of what firearm technology is. So if someone has a handwritten drawing on how to manufacture a firearm or a major firearm part, they are liable to that penalty.

SPEAKER_06 39:05

Are you finding that that that plays into other offences? Like we mentioned at the outset, organized crime um syndicates are accessing these 3D made um weapons. Uh are there drug charges that usually flow with that or anything else?

SPEAKER_03 39:20

Absolutely. So there's offences under the Firearms Act 2024 where um offences committed under that act, in conjunction with ready access to drugs, illegal drugs, or cash, have significant penalties up to 14 years imprisonment.

SPEAKER_08 39:39

Yeah, and where are you finding these weapons? Like, are you doing finding them mostly in searches or how's how are they coming across?

SPEAKER_03 39:46

There's several aspects which we are policing in this space. So they are being found whilst we are executing search warrants to target either firearm possession or manufacture or targeting drugs, and we are finding them at locations such as that. Uh, there have been instances where people have been found in possession of illicit firearms, including 3D printed firearms during uh vehicle stops by police, uh, which results in then uh further investigations into those people and the location of where they have been possibly manufacturing those firearms. Uh, we have other avenues that we work with partner agencies uh nationally, including Australian Border Force, Australian Federal Police, and other policing jurisdictions, where some of those agencies monitor the importation of prohibited items which can be used in the manufacture of firearms. So it's quite a collaborative approach where we are uh policing and targeting in the area of illicit firearms.

SPEAKER_04 40:55

Tweeers are not finding them. Art school, art schools or painting classes, drawing classes. Again, I just cannot get over how bad that. We'll probably put it on socials, the the weird little choice. I don't know. Do you think it's a short, a chihuahua, a diminu a small baboon, maybe? It's definitely an unusual shape, maybe a road. I thought it looked like that's not my choice I'd go for. Yes.

SPEAKER_08 41:20

Oh, wait, we're talking about this one. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:23

That's a I mean, if that is a self-portrait, that that is uh an unusual looking character right there. Um have we missed anything that you wanted to mention?

SPEAKER_03 41:35

Uh I just really want to make people aware that uh if something is available on the internet, such as firearm blueprints, it doesn't mean it's legal. So it's not legal. It is an area we are highly invested in with our illicit firearm team at drug and firearm squad to investigate people involved in these processes. People uh may have um interests in the area of firearms, they may be intellects where they see this as a challenging exercise to um attempt, but the penalties are significant. It's not legal, but it's illegal, but it's an area that we will investigate and we will um prefer charges imposing significant penalties for people involved in this illicit activity.

SPEAKER_04 42:31

Thank you so much to you and the team for taking these, you know, dangerous dangerous and dangerously um I mean look, again, I just can't get a two hour thing how dangerously bad that drawing is, but uh thank you very much for for taking these off the streets.

SPEAKER_06 42:47

Thank you. This is WA Police Confidential.

SPEAKER_04 42:56

There is a fraternity, if you will, amongst emergency services and first responders. And we love supporting uh our, I guess, our cousins, if you will, at St. John Ambulance and the Department of Fire and Emergency Services. But the only thing that we like more than that is absolutely destroying them, uh crushing them in any way possible, really, and being competitive with them at anything from hot hopscotch all the way up to football. Um joined today by Detective Luke Pearson, who has swapped the badge for a Guernsey uh and is hopefully going to be leading the charge in what will be a soul crushing defeat for the for D Fez, as we call them, our fiery brothers. Luke, first and foremost, what are we talking about here? Is this what sort of competitive code is it? X axe throwing, um putting out fires for them, um, or or is it some other sort of sport?

SPEAKER_05 43:52

So, yeah, like you said, lucky enough to be um appointed captain for the game against D Fest on Saturday. So we've been Lucky enough to um have been given the opportunity by the AFL and the West Coast Eagles to um you know play in a curtain raiser Optus Stadium versus versus the Fire Dogs as they're known, but um yeah the D Fest football team.

SPEAKER_04 44:15

So the Fire Dogs.

SPEAKER_08 44:16

The Fire Dogs. I think I think I like WA Hogs better, which is our police team.

SPEAKER_04 44:22

And then the code, sorry, yeah, the code is it it is Australian rules football, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05 44:27

Yeah, Australian rules football. So yeah, curtain raiser for AFL game between um Eagles and Brisbane. But yeah, taking on the Fire Dogs and Umstanding history between both clubs. 20 years um this has been going on. So how do you think we'll go on the weekend? I think we're we're putting a really good team together. So we've had a lot of interest, obviously. Um the it's been brought in by obviously getting the chance to play Optus. A lot of kids grow up sort of dreaming of that opportunity. So um we're very thankful. Had a lot of interest from all around all around the state. So um putting a really strong team together and hopefully get the win.

SPEAKER_08 45:05

Do we have any star players out on the field?

SPEAKER_05 45:08

We have a few. I can shout them out if you want. So um Tom Tom Bregan um he's he's called the Robin for us. We all have an animal nickname, but yeah, he's gonna have a big game, the wasp. Um the wasp. Mudlark will be out there running around. The mudlark. Look out. Yeah. I know. Well um, yeah, all the boys will be fired up.

SPEAKER_04 45:29

And what are the what are the qualities of a mudlark? How does one become known as a mudlark, as the mudlark?

SPEAKER_05 45:34

Yeah, a bit above my pay grade. You'll have to ask, we actually have a naming committee for the for all the nicknames. So pretty much if you um become a part of the WA Hogs and travel, we sort of have a championship every year where we travel around each state and and play three games in a week and um, you know, play the game for for some really good causes and reasons. And um, once you do that first traveling to an interstate um championship, you get given a nickname and sort of sticks with you for your career.

SPEAKER_08 46:03

What's your nickname?

SPEAKER_05 46:05

On the elk. So I got a simple one. So the elk. Um yeah, I was pretty happy with that. Majestic.

SPEAKER_04 46:11

All right, very majestic. Yeah. Um, so alright. What was so this is sort of a you know a rivalry between agencies. What was the result last year? Who's the who's the reigning champions?

SPEAKER_05 46:25

Yeah, last year we got on top of them. So um last year we had a really good win. We usually play it um, like I said, every year, it's usually held at a waffle ground. Um, this year, obviously, it's a massive step up, some more eyeballs on it, and hopefully, um, you know, especially in that last quarter when the when the full crowd starts rolling in, it'll put a bit of pressure on. But we got the better of them last year. I did get reminded by their coach during the week that um they're still up on the ledger over all the all-time history. So I'm sure they're in the same boat. They're gonna put a really good team together and um come out and try to roll us.

SPEAKER_04 46:58

So the fire dogs are ahead by how much?

SPEAKER_05 47:01

I think it's um I think it's 11 to 8. I think they're up. 11 to 8. So we're closing in, yeah. We've won the last few years, so closing in on them and um yeah, hopefully another win to even up the ledger, I think, this year, hopefully.

SPEAKER_04 47:15

Is it is it kind of a bit hard because um you know, I think the joke in in sort of policing, but the the friendly ribbing between police and and fiery is is that they have a lot of time to sleep and train, and police officers don't have time to do those things. Did do you do you ever feel as if there's a an imbalance between the amount of time that you have to do actually working as opposed to them who who can just sort of train all day?

SPEAKER_05 47:44

Yeah, there there's a few comments that get thrown around during the games between us and the fierys. Um usually they have the better of us, to be honest, in that department, because they've probably got a bit more ammo to go off. It's hard to, you know, what do we talk about, how brave they are and saving people? So um it's hard to it's hard to get one off of them, but sometimes there are a few comments going around, you know, sleeping with the lights on and and that sort of stuff. So um yeah, we might need to come up with some new material for this week and um get on top of them there as well.

SPEAKER_04 48:15

So it's and and is there anything in terms of you know coaching strategy or you know, as the captain um uh motivational talk as a sort of a okay, well, mudlark, uh I want you to take that guy down like he's a high harm offender, just get him out, just take him down, cuff him, take him off the field.

SPEAKER_05 48:34

It's a good idea, actually. Yeah, we might need to implement that, just take a few players actually off the field. But um, no, I mean in terms of taxes, now we don't train too much leading up to to the D Fest game. Sort of our trainings um will commence sort of before the when we do our interstate travel for the for the championship later in the year in Tasmania. So um it's always a really tough contest. Like we're really sore after these games with the fire dogs. Um they tend to hit pretty hard. So we'll we'll try to match them in the contest there. Um and get on top of them on the outside, and hopefully the the bigger grounder Optus, we can sort of run them around and see how we go there.

SPEAKER_04 49:13

And if the if the Eagles need a bit of a hand, you're ready to step up, step up.

SPEAKER_05 49:16

100%. I think a few boys would be up for it. I don't know how well they would go, but um they'll put their hand up for the forward pocket and try to take a hanger or kick a goal or something. But um, yeah, uh to be honest, uh, how big Optus is, I don't know how many boys would be walking around after the game.

SPEAKER_04 49:32

Sure. Yeah. And what do you so in the day job uh as a detective? I mean, is there any similarities with with sports? Is it is it that team atmosphere? Do you still have that?

SPEAKER_05 49:43

100%. It's all about the Conradary, and that's why it's so many, like the Hogs have really proud history started in 1992, and um we've had over 300 members um sort of throughout that time. Um and like I said before, it's all about um, you know, when we travel interstate, we we play for some really massive trophies in games with it like South Australia. We play for um, you know, Jeff Bowen and the Bowen family, a fallen previous fallen um police detective. Um obviously South Australia had a lot of involvement um in that investigation and they have a lot of heart in it as well. But those games are that's the reason you keep playing with the Hogs to be able to represent um trophies like that. And um, like you said, the Conrad are it's very similar to you know teamwork in policing, teamwork in footi goes hand in hand.

SPEAKER_04 50:35

Yep, and is it the same sort of feeling when you get a win in policing? Because I mean, obviously, there's a lot of people who in our organization and we are recruiting, let's join forces if you're interested, um, who have come, you know, from a sporting background.

SPEAKER_05 50:47

Yeah. Yep. 100%. It it would it sort of um goes hand in hand, like I said before. So um, yeah, the the hogs we're always looking to build, always ho uh hoping to have new recruits come in. Um so there are people out there in the community that might be the the one little thing that ticks them over the edge to join up with the with the police. And um, if they know we've got a football team and um you know they get to travel each year and play footy and see Australia, um, hopefully it's something that gets them on board.

SPEAKER_04 51:17

Yeah. And I guess the last thing for me, I don't know about you, Maya, but um, you know, we talk about you talk about sort of footy and stuff in general, um, and always talk about top of the ladder. Um, I mean, Barries are pretty, they kind of know their way around a ladder. 100% feel fair.

SPEAKER_05 51:36

No, well, yeah, exactly. Working the poll as well, so um we'll see. We'll see how we go on Saturday.

SPEAKER_08 51:44

Yeah. So just a reminder, everyone, Saturday.

SPEAKER_04 51:46

Can you use tasers while you're playing? Is there like taser rules?

SPEAKER_05 51:49

Put it in the sock or something. I don't know. They might they might be onto that, but uh, we'll see how we go.

SPEAKER_08 51:54

So thank you so much for joining us, Detective. Just a reminder that this weekend is the emergency services round. The game starts at 10 past three, um, and it will be this Saturday at Optus Stadium. So if you have a ticket and if you don't, go and get one. But uh it will be at Optus Stadium just before the Eagles game. Go hogs.

SPEAKER_04 52:12

Bye dogs. Boo.

SPEAKER_08 52:15

This is confidential. We are now joined with Claire Sienta uh to do our news update. Thanks for having me, Maya.

SPEAKER_09 52:27

Joey, how you going? Good.

SPEAKER_04 52:29

Yeah, yeah, good.

SPEAKER_09 52:30

Well, we're gonna have to.

SPEAKER_04 52:31

I just feel like whenever you're here though, it's not good.

SPEAKER_09 52:34

It's usually something really serious has happened, but yeah, there's been a lot of serious things that have happened, but um good to acknowledge the good work by our police officers, particularly with um an incident that you may have seen last Friday. Um a man was spotted in a house in Nedlands, um allegedly not wearing any clothes, but a black man naked. He was completely naked, um, performed an indecent act and then he fled. So there was quite a significant manhunt underway for him on Friday. And um fortunately that that afternoon he was um arrested and has since been charged.

SPEAKER_04 53:10

Excellent result. Um allegedly.

SPEAKER_09 53:13

Allegedly, yes.

SPEAKER_04 53:14

Do you want to know how we caught him?

SPEAKER_09 53:15

I do.

SPEAKER_04 53:16

Allegedly. Being uh the criminal mastermind that he was, he allegedly left some documentation uh close to the scene with his name on it.

SPEAKER_09 53:28

Yes, well helped the police do their job quite quickly then.

SPEAKER_04 53:32

Mm-hmm. Uh followed by some automatic number plate recognition camera tracking and uh yeah, I think he was um uh received a visit from officers in Big Park.

SPEAKER_09 53:43

And he that man is from Mikathara, 34-year-old from Mikathara. Um, in some other news, we also had a uh homicide squad were quite busy on um Friday night, Saturday morning. A man in his 60s had been located unresponsive on South Terrace in F in South Fremantle. Um and a 26-year-old man from Crawley has actually been charged with manslaughter in relation to that incident.

SPEAKER_04 54:12

Yeah, one um one that no doubt will be covered later um as it moves through the courts.

SPEAKER_09 54:16

Absolutely. Um and just uh lastly, police uh from or detectives from the Arson Squad are actually seeking some help from the public. Um they're investigating a fire that spread from a vehicle. It started in the driveway of a home in um in Alexander Heights on Friday night. Uh the vehicle was caught on fire, a second vehicle then caught on fire as a result. Um, and you know, they were quick to limit the damage to the house. But uh there was a person that investigators are interested in speaking with. He was wearing a hoodie and carrying a backpack and was seen last seen on Green Park Road walking towards Alexander Drive. So um, if anyone knows anything about that person or the fire, please get in touch with police.

SPEAKER_04 55:03

Any suggestion it was targeted? Do we know?

SPEAKER_09 55:05

Potentially. It's definitely being treated as suspicious, but the cause itself is not yet known. So investigators working through that one at the moment.

SPEAKER_04 55:13

Thanks, Claire.

SPEAKER_09 55:14

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_08 55:16

This is confidential.

SPEAKER_04 55:19

Okay, thank you very much for sticking with us for yet another episode of uh Confidential. Um, just quickly, from next week we determined that Claire uh her segment's gonna be called bad news. Bad news to Claire, because it's always bad news.

SPEAKER_08 55:33

I thought it was never good news with Claire.

SPEAKER_04 55:35

Well, either or write into our newsmail uh mail, uh wa policeconfidential at police.wa.gov.au and let us know what you would like Claire's segment to be called, or if there's anything you want to hear about or know about uh here um at the West Australia Police Force. History fact, my Yes.

SPEAKER_08 55:56

So last week I asked you if you knew what PD means.

SPEAKER_04 56:00

I kind of feel like maybe I asked you. Well and I honestly had no idea. Whoever was asking it, neither of us knew the meaning.

SPEAKER_08 56:06

Neither of us knew. So every police officer, we can guess, we'll guess. I'll give you a little bit of information about what a PD is, and then I'll let you guess how that sounds. All right. So every WA police employee has a PD number, no matter if you're staff or a sworn officer. They were originally known as regimental numbers, um, and many still call them this, but then it got broadened to include staff, auxiliary officers, all of that. So the first PD number was allocated in 1898. The WA police force was established in 1853, so it was quite a bit after.

SPEAKER_07 56:43

Sure.

SPEAKER_08 56:43

Um, and it began with PD1, Sergeant Arthur Patton. Okay. He was the first.

SPEAKER_04 56:50

PD1. Yep, okay.

SPEAKER_08 56:51

PD1. So, Joey, what does PD stand for?

SPEAKER_04 56:56

Police Department.

SPEAKER_08 56:57

Do you want to try again?

SPEAKER_04 57:00

No. I've got nothing.

SPEAKER_08 57:03

It means personal designator.

SPEAKER_04 57:06

Wow, that is boring. Yeah. Boring. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 57:10

So it could have been police district, it could have been in police description, position description, anything.

SPEAKER_04 57:16

Could have been something.

SPEAKER_08 57:17

But personal designator was what they came up with. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 57:21

Back in 1898. Personally designating the uh the the next week's history tease effect to you if you've got it.

SPEAKER_08 57:30

Yes, so next week we're going back to 1954, the first time a reigning monarch came to Australia, and we'll discover how the police protected the Queen from an epidemic in Perth.

SPEAKER_04 57:42

Wow. Okay, that's cool.

SPEAKER_08 57:44

This is confidential.

SPEAKER_09 57:57

Sound editing by Joe and Danny and Sam. Cover song by the WA Police Pipe Band, and cheesy podcast theme music by Joey Catanzaro. By the way, why just listen to a podcast about policing when you could actually be doing it? Let's join forces.wa.gov.au