Navigating Healthcare Through Self-Advocacy

In this episode, I interview Matilda, a Ghanaian immigrant living in the US with her husband and son. We discuss her birthing experience in the US and the resources she found to be most helpful during the perinatal period. Matilda encourages expectant mothers to get enough sleep and be mindful of their health habits as they prepare for motherhood. This episode is funded by the 4W Initiative, and the African Center for Community Development supported the production.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hello, and welcome to Birthing Beyond Borders, a podcast where we share the stories of migrant moms from around the world. From sleepless nights to moments of joy. We'll be diving into the real, remote and inspiring journeys of motherhood. You're ready to laugh, learn, and experience a range of emotions while being inspired. I am your host, Adeji McKinley Love My Day. And together, we'll uncover the challenges, celebrate the wins, and honor the wisdom mothers carry across borders. Welcome to my community space. In this episode, I have with me Matilda, who is an immigrant from Ghana and is currently working on a PhD. Matilda, welcome to the Birthing Beyond Borders podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Hey, thank you so much, Jumoke, and it's a privilege to be a part of this project.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Yeah, I'm so glad to, you know, have you talk about your experience being a mom and being a full-time student as well, um, pursuing a PhD? And so um, I usually would start this conversation by asking my guests to tell us a little bit about themselves. You know, we know you're from Ghana. How long have you lived in the US? Do you have family here in the US? What brought you to the US? Did you, you know, move out to the US for academic purposes or did you have family and you decided to come out to live with family?

SPEAKER_00 1:16

So, by way of introduction, my name is Matilda, and I'm currently a fifth-year doctoral student at the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee. And I'm getting my PhD in African history, and my specialization is US immigration history and 20th century African immigration to the United States and Empire Studies. And I moved to the United States in 2019. I came to do my master's in a university in Illinois, Northern Illinois University. And then afterwards, I moved, I transitioned into my PhD program because the initial um intent for my immigration was to come and pursue doctoral studies. And so that's currently what I am doing. And for family background, I am the first child out of four, and so that's yeah, quite a big responsibility. So yes, I've been here since 2019.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

Thank you. And when you say, you know, being the first child with three siblings, and that's a big responsibility. What does that mean? What does that look like for an African immigrant?

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Honestly, it means being like the second mother and having to bear a lot of you know emotional responsibility and everyone looking up to you to set a certain template for the rest to follow. And so it's it really is a lot of pressure because it's a lot of people who are invested in their life choices and the life decisions that you make. So it's it's it's it's a heavy back to carry, I would say.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

Yeah, I I really hear that. And you know, and I know a lot of um firstborn, particularly firstborn female children of like um African homes would definitely share that perspective as well. Um, before I move on to my next section, as you know, this podcast is for African immigrant mothers to talk about their birthing experience here in the US. Um, I want to know what's your favorite thing about living in the US?

SPEAKER_00 3:06

My favorite thing about living in the US is access to certain infrastructure. So, for example, let's say the access to books and things like internet. Like if I need to look up something on the internet, it's just in less than a second, I can do that. And just access to things like if there's this book that has been released, I can just go to the library and borrow it and read it. And it's so crazy how some of these things have become a deeply embedded part of my life that I can't even remember what my life before this looked like. So I honestly would say access to certain infrastructure like internet and then yeah, books, and even being able to go to multiple stores and buy a dress without the hassle of having to wake up at dawn and trek to the market, you know, like we do back back home. So it's yeah, it's it's really is the access to infrastructure and certain um goods and products.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Awesome. Thanks for sharing that. Okay, let's get to the sweet part. Um, you know, I want to talk about pregnancy and childbirth experience, and and to kick us off, I want you to take us to that moment when you found out you were pregnant. What did it feel like?

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Excitement. I remember that day so clearly. So the day I took my pregnancy test. So let me okay, let me just backtrack a bit. So I got I have a honeymoon baby, that's how I got my my bundle of joy. Yeah, so I got married, went to my honeymoon, came back to the US. So I was I had to um take a brief um a couple of weeks from school to go to Ghana and go and do the ceremony, leave my husband behind and come back and come and continue schoolwork. So I come back after the honeymoon, the festivities, the pomp and pageantry and everything, and then find out okay, I've missed my period. And in a casual conversation with a friend, she's like, Go and check. I mean, I wasn't my mind didn't go to pregnancy because I usually um have my period late, so I wasn't too worried. But she's like, you know, go and check, you know. I mean, you went to Ghana to enjoy yourself in quotes, so might as well go and check. So I go to Walgreens, I buy the test kit, and then I do it, and then it says I'm pregnant. And it was it was just so funny for me. And then the funny thing is that I couldn't even tell my husband because I remember clearly that that day it was a day that there was a WhatsApp um outage in the whole of Ghana. I don't know if in Nigeria they had the same thing, but there was a day when there was the internet was out, so there was no way to even share the good news with my husband.

SPEAKER_02 5:30

Oh my gosh!

SPEAKER_00 5:31

And so what I yeah, and so what I did was that I wrote um you're going to be a dad on like a sticky note, and then I took a picture of it, and then I emailed it to him. And wasn't hearing any feedback from him, but then the next day I got like multiple calls from him. It's like, okay, what is going on? Like, okay, I got this. So then I'm like, okay, yeah, so we are going to have a baby. So that's how I broke the pregnancy news to him. And then afterwards, I told my mom. And surprisingly, she wasn't even surprised. I don't even know why, because for her, she said um it was her prayer, like she had been praying that okay, I would have a baby like ASAP. So she wasn't as shocked as I expected her to be. She was just yeah, very excited and you know, like very accepting of the fact that okay, the new reality, we are going to walk in it and we are going to do it. So, yeah, for me, I guess, yeah, um, that's the story of my first emotion with regards to the news.

SPEAKER_02 6:23

That's exciting, and thank you for sharing that. Um, I heard you say, you know, your mom was not surprised. And I reckon a lot of African mothers, like that's what they want, you know. Like their daughter gets married. It's like, when are you going to have a baby? Are you pregnant? Have you missed your period? What's going on? You know, and there's that excitement that, you know, they often feel when they get called grandma. And I think that's something a lot of African um mothers definitely want for their own daughters. So um, thank you for sharing that. I want us to talk a little bit about um some of the cultural practices that you might have, you know, planned to follow during pregnancy. I'm wondering if, you know, there are things that are particular to your culture in Ghana for pregnant women to do, and were you able to do those things here?

SPEAKER_00 7:08

I wouldn't point to like very specific, you know, like exotic Ghanaian cultural practices. It's more, you know, like very general things like take care of yourself and eat well. So it was more of like the eat well and make sure you're not eating junk. Like, particularly for my mom, that's something that she kept drumming into my ears that, you know, like these are the things you should now start eating. Stay away from all the fried food and all the oily food. So for me, it was more of you know, like eat well, get enough rest, get enough rest, and don't be stressed out. So, yeah, I feel like those are not particular um precise um cultural practices, but much more, you know, like general practices concerning um pregnancy, like globally, I would say. So, yeah, nothing in particular. I guess I would say one cultural practice too that um my mom told me about, and I wouldn't be surprised if other people do this, is you know, after you have the baby in Ghanaian culture, you are told to like tie a cloth, you know, like a piece of cloth around your tummy. So it's sort of like um um a waste trainer. So you use a piece of cloth to sort of snatch exactly to snatch back here your body, so the muscles and all the fat and do whatever they are supposed to do. So I guess for me, that's also yeah, one cultural practice that I did or I look forward to doing.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Okay, okay. Um, and I guess in terms of like preparing um, you know, preparation for the arrival of the baby, you know, while you were pregnant, um, what helped you um prepare? What made it easy? What made pregnancy easy? What made it difficult if there were things that were challenging?

SPEAKER_00 8:38

So for me, one of the easiest things was having um two friends, two very close friends who had done it before. That made it so easy. And particularly because they had done it in the US, there were Ghanaian women like me, there were Christian women like me, we were age mates, and so it was very easy to have access to every single information that I needed. And also one of them in particular did this um thing for me. She wrote a list and she shared it with me via um iMessage. She wrote a list of every single baby thing I would need. So, really, I literally just had to go to the list. Okay, Acosia says I need this, Acosia says I need this, put it on my registry and then do all of that. So for me, I had um access to all the information I could possibly need. And so it made preparation like very, very easy for me. And then also, you know, this thing about good internet in this part of the world that I was talking about, it made things very smooth for me in the sense that if I needed information on how to use a particular baby care item, I would just go and watch a video. So let's say, for example, with the putting to putting together the stroller, the crib, and things like that, it was just videos that I was what I was watching. I remember when I was putting the dresser together for my baby's clothes, I just went online and then like found like pictures and videos of how to like put assemble furniture together. And then like within another 30 minutes, it was done. So for me, I would say just access to something that seems very ordinary and basic, like internet, really made my my preparation much easier. And also another thing now that I think about it would be in a funny way, like the skills I had, I had as um a grad student really helped me. And this is what I mean. So, you know, in grad school, particularly in a field like history, we know how to find information about whatever we need. And so having that particular skill really helped me in the sense that I was able to like comb through the large amount of information that the internet throws at you concerning pregnancy, and I was able to sift through that okay, this makes sense. Like, how are they substantially like this particular thing they are saying? Is it a doctor who is their source that is, you know, like recommending this particular practice? So I would say that particular skill that I had got as a grad student really helped me with preparing for pregnancy, and even with regards to finding resources, there were there was so much of the information that I already knew, even before I went to the doctor's office, and the doctor would say, Eat this, don't do this. I had read about it, spoken to people about it. So a lot of the things it wasn't really a lot of new things for me, I guess I would say. So that's why I will make that link to the skills that I had gotten in grad school and then how it helped me to prepare for the pregnancy journey.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

So it sounds like just having a community of friends who had done it before, but not just friends, but friends that look like you, um, share the same, you know, beliefs and and faith as you, and also just like ability to just like research for information on the internet was very helpful. Um uh yeah, thanks for sharing that. In terms of like healthcare and healthcare providers, how did they impact your um pregnancy experience?

SPEAKER_00 11:42

So for me, and this is one thing that I'm always thankful for the fact that I had a very, very experienced doctor. Honestly, when other women talk about how challenging birth was for me, I always say I had a very smooth birth. Like honestly, like I don't even remember feeling any pain, but that's because I took their pedo. Wow, yeah, but more on that, yeah, but more on that later. So I would say I had um a doctor who knew what she was doing, and when I was collecting her, one thing that I wanted was I wanted a person of color. So when I first did the whole, you know, um, you have to go and do the labs because um sometimes the pregnancy like test kits are not the most reliable thing. So it's much better to go to like so I went to the student's clinic, did the whole urine thing, then they gave me the results, and then I mean, of course, in their diplomatic way, they ask if you want to keep the pregnancy or you want to, you know, like terminate it for reasons known to you. And so I decided to ask the nurse if she could share with me like any recommendations of good doctors to use, because I mean, if other students have, you know, like used the student clinic before, maybe surely there's a particular doctor who a lot of like students, immigrants prefer. And so she gave me like this tall list of you know doctors. And so, I mean, I took the papers, I took it home, and then I began, I guess, my process of elimination. And so for me, I specifically wanted a person of color, and then I so I I I I limited it, and I think I ended up with um two people, and yeah, it was also shocking. A lot of the um providers were white people, right? So I found this woman of color, she had excellent reviews, and so I'm like, you know what? Let's give it a try. So I just decided to go with it, and yeah, I don't regret that decision because she really knew what she was doing.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

That's awesome. And when you say person of color, did it did it matter to you that the person was a black doctor, or would it have been okay if the person was a you know another person of color who wasn't black?

SPEAKER_00 13:35

That's a really great question. And the the doctor wasn't black, I think she was from a Southeast Asian country. I think was it Philippines? Yeah, but she was a South Southeast Asian woman, so yeah, person of color, not black, yes. Okay, okay, so it it did it didn't matter for me. I just needed a person of color because if there were certain, you know, like cultural practices that I needed the person to consider with regards to you know tailoring a certain plan of care for me, I wanted the person to understand why I was asking for something like that. So, for example, if I say I'm going to end up like circumcising my child, I need you to not ridicule me or like shame me, right? I need you to understand why I want that. And then also, even with regards to things like diet, so the Ghanaian um diet is primarily we eat a lot of rice, and I'm sure you can attest to that, Jumukay. We eat a lot of rice, and so yeah, and so if you're when you're asking me what my eating habits look like, and I tell you that I'm struggling with like my rice consumption, luckily she understood because she comes from a culture where they also eat a lot of rice. And so I found that you know, like very um helpful to me. So that's for me primarily one of the reasons why I leaned towards a person of color.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Okay, so it sounds like you wanted somebody who could understand some of the preferences that you had in terms of like cultural things for diet and just like decisions that you felt as a Guinean was important for you. Um, in terms of like the healthcare that these doctors provided, what were some things that stood out to you um or that made your pregnancy experience um smooth?

SPEAKER_00 15:06

So, one of the things is the fact that in instances where I was not comfortable with how the nurses were doing like certain things, the doctor would be quick to say, you know, let me give it a try because patients have said that when I do it, it's much more easier. So I'll give you an example. So getting towards the end of the pregnancy, they had to check to see like how dilated my cervix was. And oh my god, that test, that examination was so invasive. And when the nurses would try to do it, I mean, I would scream because it was painful. But then the doctor quickly um swooped in and would say, you know what, don't worry, don't check her again. I will just like call me and then let me do it myself. And so for me, I really appreciated the fact that she she knows that she has much more experience compared to the other healthcare professionals who were taking care of me. And so she would be quick to say, let me give it a try, because it's likely that I would be able to do it in a much more comfortable way for you. And so I really appreciate that. Appreciated that, and then also one thing that um she the doctor did that I really appreciated was the fact that she was always checking in on me to see how I was doing. Because for me, I went through close to 80% of my pregnancy alone. My husband hadn't come by then, and so she was um in the very first meeting, she asked me what my family and home life looked like. And so I think she made a note of the fact that okay, I was a student, I was an immigrant, I didn't have family here, and my husband wasn't here, and so a lot of the support would be like via phone call. And so for subsequent meetings, she was always checking in on me to see if my husband had come, was he going to come and how is he supporting me, even if um even though he was not physically present here? So I really appreciated the fact that she was doing a lot of these check-ins on the state of, I guess, and what my family looked like and how she could, you know, like offer input to assist me when it came to that. Sounds like you had a great doctor.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

Yeah. I'm glad you had that kind of experience. Um, so then I wanted to talk about postpartum and recovery and mental health, and you know, a lot of women, um, especially immigrants, um, sometimes, you know, during postpartum, you know, for some women, they have like family and they have like their moms or their mother-in-law would come stay with them. For some other women, they don't have that kind of support, unfortunately. And so I'm wondering, did you have support from your family or friends during the postpartum period? And if you did have support, what kind of supports do they provide to you?

SPEAKER_00 17:33

Thank you so much. I think that's a great question. For me, I would say, um, and in retrospect, like as I think about it, I feel like a bit emotional because it's it's crazy how I was able to do it because I didn't have any family here. I didn't have anything here, like, oh, an aunt who lives in a different state who was taking two weeks off work to come and help me. Nope, I didn't have that kind of support. So it was mainly people just calling me, like calling me and checking, are you eating well? We are praying for you, is there like anything we can do to help? Everything will be fine. So I guess I would say like support came in the form of like affirmative words. So that's the kind of support that I um a lot of people in my circle gave me because they couldn't be there um physically, not because they didn't want to, but then because the circumstances of life just wouldn't make that possible. And also another kind of support I had was so I go to a Ghanaian church, so it means that I'm surrounded by so many Ghanaian aunties, and you know, there are a couple of um doctors and mothers in church. So, you know, it's people um offering once again like words of support and saying, if you need anything, reach out to me. So I would say, in terms of physical physical support, you know, someone coming to like cook a meal for you so you don't have to cook, I didn't have any of that. But luckily, um I had enough strength to be able to do things like clean my bathroom, continue to like meal prep and do all of those things before like my husband came and then um started doing some of these things to help me. But for me, the primary form of support was the affirmative words that yeah, a lot of people gave me during this time.

SPEAKER_02 19:12

At what point after you had the baby was your husband able to join you in the US? So my husband came when I was in my eighth month. Okay, so he was here when the baby when you give birth to the baby? Yes, he was here. Okay, and so that means during the post-pattern period, you know, he was there to primarily provide support. So he was he was the only one who was there with you, or did you have your mom or his mom come around?

SPEAKER_00 19:35

No, it was just my husband and I figuring things out by ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

When you say figuring things out, what does that look like? How did you figure things out? Did you speak to other couples like you who had babies, or was it just internet? And uh, yeah, how did you figure things out?

SPEAKER_00 19:52

So, really, it was a bit of both. And I remember the very first time we, you know, you we've done all the paperwork and everything, we are ready to leave, and then you get home with the baby, and you know, we've packed the car and we are wondering, okay, now we've brought the baby home. Like, okay, what are we supposed to do with him now? Like, are we leaving him in the cassette? Are we removing him? Are we giving him food? It was just, you know, a very funny first couple of minutes because it's like, wait, so the doctors actually just left left us to bring like a fresh baby home by ourselves. Do they even care if I can take care of this person or I'm going to starve him? But that's just on the lighter side. But um, I would I I would say it was a a bit of both, you know, a bit of internet, a bit of the book my doctor gave me, which was, you know, like they had labeled things according to week and what to do after bed. So it was just, you know, like checking over your notes. Okay, this is what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to give him this, not give him this. So it was it really felt like when you study for an exam, and then now it's time for the exam and you need to deliver. So it was going back to information that we had read, had watched videos about, spoken to other people about. And in the instances where we faced a hedgehog, just call people. You know, there was there was there were always a ton of people to call. Okay, the baby's not sleeping through the night, make a phone call. You get someone to give you some tips. You always get someone texting to check in on you. So there was always, you know, that. And my um babies, the pediatrician also, I mean, it was a very good um, I guess, doctor's office because you could call if you had any questions and then they'll tell you what to do. I remember when we went through the phase where um my baby was struggling to um pass gas. And I mean, I had done all the reading, and people were swearing by um what's the name of um this um oh there's this there's this liquid gripe water, yes. A lot of mothers were swearing by gripe water and how it helps their baby pass gas. But for me, because I guess I'm more you know like academically inclined, I need to do my checks, have an expert say, go for it before I do it. I'm not just going to believe some random stranger on the internet. So, I mean, I I would call the pediatrician's office. And say, hey, is it okay if I give them this particular medication? How much of it can I give them? So when I get a go ahead, then I would proceed. So a lot of it was phone calls and then verifying information before you give the baby anything or do anything to them.

SPEAKER_02 22:14

Yeah. Okay. Okay. And and how did you, as a new mom, survive postpartum? You know, was it challenging? Was he a breeze because you had your husband with you? How did you navigate your own identity as Matilda? And now you're somebody's mother, but you still have like other commitments, you know, like your PhD work and your role as a wife as well. How did you navigate all of those things during the postpartum period?

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Honestly, I would say it was a lot of having to unlearn certain things and, you know, be at peace with the new normal. And what I mean is that before having a baby, I could do like things like block out a large chunk of time and dedicate it to a particular task. So for example, if let's say today was a day that I wanted to do a bit of reading and writing, I could dedicate four um four blocks of hours to reading and just sitting with my books and typing and doing other things. But with a baby, I had to become comfortable with the idea that it doesn't work that way. You have to become used to working in small bits of time. And so, and the thing is, if you do not um quickly get your mind around the fact that your life has changed, you become frustrated very easily. So then you begin to feel like a failure in terms of, okay, I'm not making a lot of progress on my academic work because I'm you are equating progress to being able to have a large amount of uninterrupted time doing schoolwork. And now, because you can't have that again, you think that somehow you have failed as a graduate student. I had to quickly unlearn that nope, the new metrics for success had changed. And luckily for me, I had a very, very, very supportive advisor. My advisor always encouraged me to, you know, like take things, take things easy. You have a baby now, some of the things we can put on hold until you settle in your role as a mother, and then we can come back to it. So a lot of it had, um yeah, a lot of it was on learning certain things. And I would say the first couple of months, oh my goodness, so challenging, so challenging. One of the ways that I survived was because a lot of people who had experience just reassured me of the fact that the babies they don't stay the same, they they evolve as time passes. Because the first couple of months is a baby who really doesn't know how to sleep, it's like they have no sense of day and night. And I had I had one of those babies that did not understand that the books and the expect are telling you to sleep on your back. So I can't put you on my chest to sleep through the night. So it was just a nightmare. And I could literally go through days and nights where I was sleeping like 15 minutes, then I'll wake up for two hours, and then I'll get another, you know, like 20 minutes of sleep, and then so on and so forth. So the first couple of months was very, very challenging. And I remember, and my husband and I have a picture of it. The very first doctor's appointment we went to. If you see our faces in the pictures, we look so exhausted because we were so sleep deprived, and the baby was looking very rested. And I'm like, of course, you look rested. The one who was enjoying your sleep, and we were the ones who had to watch you and make sure you know you are not suffocating or every something hasn't beaten you in a crib or something. So it was very, very challenging. And yeah, now that I think about it, yeah, I don't even know how we survived it. But but yeah, I mean, for me, one important thing was just hearing um those ahead of me, what they had done, and their two cents about a lot of things, and then just letting that advice comfort me and give me assurance of what is to come.

SPEAKER_02 25:51

Yeah, it sounds like you know, just the mental shifts that you had to make from one defining what the new success looks like as a PhD student who's also your mom, but also having a supportive community, like the people that I share their own experience with you, your advisor who, you know, who told you over time that it's okay to push some things back. Um sounds like those were the things that actually like held you down during that period. Um, so thank you so much for sharing that. Um, you know, again, but during postpartum, um, the postpartum phase, did you experience any anxiety or depression um in that particular stage of um your recovery?

SPEAKER_00 26:32

Well, in the postpartum phase, and yeah, thank you for bringing that question up. I think it's yeah, um an aspect of my pregnancy that um I haven't really, you know, like reflected on. So um I'll tell you this. When I went for the very first doctor's appointment after, you know, like the six weeks after you've had a baby, they give you a questionnaire to fill, and it's a way for them to gauge whether you are suffering from postpartum depression. And it was actually one of my frustrations, and for me, one of the lowest points of America's healthcare system. And that and what what I mean is that it's basically you being given a piece of paper and being told to fill the information, and then afterwards, they gauge your answers and they tell you, okay, we want to put you on antidepressants. And for me, I I remember when I was failing that question, honestly, I was so exhausted, I wasn't even paying attention to a lot of the answers. And so for me, a lot of my answers were like very like neutral, you know, when they give you like a skill and they say pick um always, hardly, never, sometimes I love that. So a lot of my answers were very neutral, and also because see, I was like so exhausted, I am really not in the mental place to come and dedicate a lot of thinking to this. So my husband and I are in the car park, um, going home after getting the car and going back home after the appointment. And then the nurse calls me and she says that, you know, like based on the numerical, I guess, interpretation of my answers, they want to put me on like antidepressants. And so I'm like, wait, what? You guys just in less than 30 minutes after I fill the form, simply tell me you want to give me medication, right? Without, you know, like um a subsequent conversation, without asking me any questions, just like if you're going to put me on medication. I'm like, no, I I I decline. And can you like put me through my doctor and let let like let her explain and let her okay for me that's it's fine, I'm not going to take this medication. So she calls a doctor and she texts, she checks the doctor, and the doctor says, Yeah, it's fine. If I don't want to take it, I don't want to take it. And that's the end of the conversation. And the reason why, in retrospect, I say it was a low point for me was because I felt like there was, you know, like very little effort or very little thinking that went into quickly deciding to put someone on a medication because we are talking about medications that would, you know, like tamper or affect the way that you know, like you process emotions. So if you are not recommending me talking to any mental health counselor or any professional of this of the sort, and quickly your first go-to is I'm going to give you medication, it doesn't make any sense. And I mean, there wasn't even any room to ask any questions. This was just the lady who um does the scheduling who tells me, okay, we want to give you medicine. It wasn't even the nurse, not even the nuts, not even the nurse that it was uh just the receptionist saying, okay, based on your answers, we want to give you medication. And then and I mean, I remember I was on um um loudspeaker, and my husband was shaking his head, like, no, like none of this makes sense. We are not going to just take medicine because you just graded like some answers and said you need to give us medication. So they're like, nope, we declined it. And I don't regret doing that because in the days after, in the weeks after, I quickly went back to myself. For me, like I said, it was a lot of exhaustion and being comfortable with what my new like normal was. So I didn't quite understand why you know the the healthcare professionals were very quick to term it as um postpartum depression. So for me, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's just here my experience with that um that that particular aspect of my journey.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

This episode of Birthing Beyond Borders is funded by the 4W Initiative and supported by the African Center for Community Development. Please check out these two wonderful organizations. Details can be found in the description below.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. And you know, first of all, I'm sorry that that happened. I I I agree with you that you know a conversation should have taken place. Like come in, let's talk about it. What's going on? Are you tired? And I also think that sometimes all these tools, it's not always black and white, you know, they're always very, you know, like in your case, you're just really exhausted. There's always gray areas. And so, like, and I think that's like as a qualitative researcher, I think that's why I would always, always like advocate for best case scenario, mixed methods. I think that quant data enough, quant data alone doesn't tell full stories. Imagine if you know, if you're not educated enough or like self-aware to push back and say, no, I don't want this, you know, you just take this medicine and you in two weeks after you're fine, you just really needed time to rest or sleep.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

With regards to this, I remember one of the things um a friend of mine, and um her name is Fafa, she actually has her PhD in nutrition and dietetics, so she has a bit of experience with the healthcare um system here. And one of the things she told me in the preparation stages was the fact that I need to like learn how to advocate for myself because then in the in the US, with regards to healthcare, if you don't do that, they are going to force a lot of things on you that you may not have the chance to say no or ask questions about. So for me, I was, you know, like very alert and on my game with the fact that nope, you guys are not going to market anything to me that I'm not going to, you know, like ask probing questions about. So I feel like that really kept me on my toes. And I think one of the reasons why my doctor probably said it's fine if she doesn't want to take it, we won't force it on her, was that when I went in for the test, she was asking me, you know, like some general questions. So I guess from that she had ascertained that okay, this person is fine. Like nothing about her answers or her responses give me concern. So even if the paper test is saying something different and she says she doesn't want the medicine, it's fine. So I guess that's why my doctor probably didn't make a big deal about it because maybe from a bit of our check-in conversation, she had ascertained that okay, there isn't a lot of um red flags that we need to follow up on.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing that experience. Um, I want to talk a little bit about the role that religious practices or organization play in mental health during the postpartum period. You know, I heard you say that you attend a Guinean church and there are like aunties and mothers in the church, you know, that provided support in terms of like advice and and um reassurance during the pregnancy period. I was wondering if you know the church also played a role um in terms of like your mental health navigating your new norm.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Yes, I would say they played a significant role. And one of the things, I guess, on the spiritual aspect of um things was the prayers. Like the prayers really, really, really helped and a lot of very um affirmative words and people, you know, saying, We are with you in prayer, people offering to, you know, like you would have out I would have people call me in the in the middle of the week just to check up on me to see if I was eating well, if I was feeling well, and then say a prayer with me. And even beyond just you know, like more spiritual, inclined things like prayers, they also did practical things like buying, you know, like some baby items for me. So my church organized a baby shower for me. So one of the Sundays um before before I had my baby and after service, they just you know, like surprised me and another mother in church who was um coincidentally having twins. So they had a baby shower with us. And for me personally, I got enough diapers and wipes to the point that my son is going to be one year next month, and I haven't bought pampers and wipes. That's how much yeah, diapers I got for my baby shower. So, you know, in for me, that was one practical way that my church community supported me, even beyond just the spiritual um practices and acts. There was also, you know, like very tangible forms of help, like buying me things that I would need. So it makes, you know, like my financial investment in this new part of my life um much more reduced.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

Thank you so much for sharing that, Matilda. Um now I want to talk a little bit about some of the resources, both formal and informal, that um that you that you found to be helpful. And you know, I want to I want you to share um how you found out about these resources. I know a lot of women talk about having doors and like, you know, um community organizations where they can get free car seats for their babies. Um, were there any formal or informal resources that you found to be helpful and how did you find out about them?

SPEAKER_00 35:05

So for me, one of the first resources and something that I would always, you know, like press on women to use is your voice. And when I say your voice, what I mean is normalize asking questions. So for me, a lot of um the resources that I was able to come by was because I was always asking people, how did you do this? How do you do this? Where do I find this? And so for me, when I was asking um people for resources, I had a friend, the one who made me the list of the things to buy for the baby, she recommended this app. And since then, it's a resource I have been sharing with every single pregnant woman. It's called Baby Center. So, what Baby Center does is that it lets you put in your information and then it helps you to compute when your baby is going to be due. So every single week it tells you what is happening with the growth of the baby. The next week it tells you this is a different thing that is happening, and then it gives you different articles and resources for learning more about the baby's growth and development in that particular week. And with that particular resource, another component that was very helpful was that they had a community board. So, for example, so for me, for example, who was going to have my baby in let's say November 2024, there would be a community board for all women who are having their babies in November 2024. And there would be conversations of all sorts. So someone would ask a question about um, is this product better than this product? What would you recommend for this? Um, I saw my baby has this particular rush, my baby is pooping a certain color, what does it mean? And you would have people sharing their experiences. So for me, it was so, so, so, so helpful. And the fact that a lot of women were very willing to share their resources with me really, really helped. And so, yes, for me, one of the resources, use your voice, ladies. Use your voice because if you keep quiet about what your current season and situation looks like, then people wouldn't know how to help you. But if you um vocally articulate what your needs are and you know, like how others can help you, then people can come to your rescue. Of course, it's a completely different thing if you are asking people to support you and then they are not, right? And another um resource I would say is also just, you know, like curiosity, like just being curious enough to know that, okay, if I go on Google and they give me, say, like five different articles with five different perspectives, that there is a way that I would, you know, like see through the information and verify to see that, okay, this is like standard and best practices when you are taking care of a baby or when you are taking care of yourself, because there is a lot of information out there. So you have to be curious enough to, you know, like know, okay, why are people saying this? Why are a group of people like leaning towards a certain preferred um method of medication or a certain like preferred product.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

Um thank you. Um, and are there services or resources that you wish you had known about or had access to?

SPEAKER_00 38:00

I mean, so I heard about doulas and I know um a Ghanaian lady who used a doula, and for her, it was because she didn't have in like my like myself, she didn't have any family coming in. But for me, I mean, in retrospect, I probably maybe in my next pregnancy would consider like using a doula because I mean it would be nice to have you know more hands-on experience from somebody who you know like knows what they are doing, instead of my husband and I who would be figuring out things from books and the internet. So yeah, it would uh yeah, I guess that particular resource would have been nice to consider. But at the time, one reason why we didn't consider it was because we felt like it was a bit invasive, you know, it's something very private, and you're asking a complete, I guess, stranger who you don't know anything about to be coming into your home and all of that. So I guess that's a resource that I would consider. And then, hmm, let's see. And also, you know what you talk about with regards to organizations that give you um like strollers and stuff like that. I I didn't know of any such organization, so maybe I wasn't in, I wasn't surrounded by people who had used a resource of that nature. So yeah, I I if if I had maybe I would have considered going that route and saving my money on a baby stroller, which is irritatingly expensive to buy.

SPEAKER_02 39:22

Yeah, and for you know, expecting mothers listening to this, um, there are community-based organizations that can provide you with some of these things. Um, I also know that your insurance company can provide you with a free breast pump. Um, these are some things that um that you don't have to spend money on and you can get if you qualify for them. So I definitely encourage you to um reach out to these community organizations and just find out what's out there. Just ask. Like Matilda said, you need to be comfortable asking questions and just ask people. Um, if you have a Facebook community group, ask, you know, if you if you go to the hospital, um, ask the nurse about the resources that are available to mothers in your area. Um, so I guess, you know, for the last section of this podcast episode, Matilda, I want to talk about reflections. And, you know, I know you've shared some advice to some of the mothers listening to us, but I want us to kind of look back a little bit. Um, is there anything you'd have done differently during your perinatal journey? Honestly, I would have rested more.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

Yeah, I I think for me, because it was my very first baby, I was so anxious to get a lot of things out of the way that I didn't really just sleep. You know, like put your phone away, put the laptop away, put the books away, and just sleep like your life depends on it. I feel like if I could go back, that's something that I would do because honestly, now sleep is a gift. If I can go a night where my son, my son is not trying to tear my breast off, it's it's it's a it's a gift from the universe. So if I if I could go back, I would say do a lot of sleeping and less worrying, you know, because there was also a lot of worry about do I have enough money, have I covered all my bases, do I have enough products? Does the is the that do I have enough warm clothes for the baby? So I would sleep more and worry less. And also, I guess another thing I want to say, and this would also be, you know, like advice to other women preparing to get pregnant or go on this journey would be to take better care of my health with regards to diets. And I say this because at a point in the pregnancy, and other women were tested this, you have to do a uh sugar glucose test. And for me, I actually failed that test by one point, and so I actually, yes, I actually had gestational diabetes when I was pregnant, and so what that meant was that I had to go through the pregnancy, you know, like pricking myself with a needle and checking my sugar levels after every meal. And that's because I'd failed my um glucose test by missing it by one point, and so I say this to say that just be careful about what you are eating because your body has a funny way of um letting you face the consequences of certain diet choices at a moment when you might not expect it. And so I feel like in retrospect, if I had taken better care of my health with regards to, you know, just chilling and relaxing with the sugar content, then I would have avoided, you know, the whole like gestational diabetes thing. I mean, initially it sounded, you know, like very scary, but then I mean, of course, I hear the books, I hear the resources, and then it was just something that I had to control with my diet. So unfortunately, I had to reduce the amount of carbohydrates I was eating. So that meant that very little rice, it was so painful. Right? Like so, so, so painful. And the day um my doctor and I discussed the results, it was so funny because she was like, I know, I know the rice is tasty because I mean they eat a lot of rice. So she was like, you know, I should just like weather the storm until I'm done with the baby, and then I can go back to eating all the rice I want to. Yeah, so I had to go see a dietitian and they had to show me the quantity of carbohydrates to eat because for me, yeah, my my my sin was that I I really like rice like so so much. I can eat rice every single day of the week, and so it didn't come as too much of a surprise that yeah, I failed my glue coasters because yeah, my body was just swimming with all that jol of rice. So, yeah, I guess I would say to women that just be more, you know, scrupulous with how you take care of your health before you have a baby. And because because you anything can happen, that's the thing. And I had a friend who um always advised me to be doing like you know, do some physical exercise, be stretching. And be doing all sorts of things because your body changes in a very funny way after you have a baby. All of a sudden, your back and your waist, they are never the same after you have the baby. And so just do what you can to prepare your body for the important assignment of carrying and making another life. So I guess if I could go back differently, I would go, you know, like several years back to my early 20s when I had the strength and I had the flexibility with what I wanted to eat and how I could eat it. And yeah, I would do a much better job in preparation for becoming a mother years later.

SPEAKER_02 44:34

Thank you so much, Matilda. You've answered some of my next question. I was gonna say, you know, what advice do you have for new African immigrant mothers who are currently pregnant or planning to get pregnant? So um I'll go to our next question, which is also the final question. Um, what message would you like um healthcare providers or organizations that provide service to mothers, um, what would you like them to hear as it relates to providing care to African immigrant mothers?

SPEAKER_00 45:00

First of all, I would like them to understand that for a lot of African immigrants, religion is a very significant part of our identity, our makeup and our reality. And so if the if if um there's um an African immigrant uh mother who ex who makes a certain preference for her care, you need to understand and respect the fact that there are religious considerations for that particular thing. And so we shouldn't raise a lot of eyebrows or funny attitude with regards to what our preference is. And then also, secondly, with my own personal experience, I would say we need a lot more diligence where certain things like meds um medication is concerned. You don't just jump to saying I'm going to give you medicine because you scored maybe like four out of ten or six out of ten on a list of questions that we gave you to answer, right? Without, you know, extensive conversation about what mental um what postpartum depression presents as and why the person maybe chose, you know, like certain responses, because it's like what you were saying, a mixed methods approach will be much more um preferable instead of just telling mothers to answer a bunch of questions. So I would say professionals should re-evaluate the methods by which they try to diagnose postpartum depression in African immigrant uh mothers because also we are coming from a culture where we don't know a lot about this, you know. It's the process of immigration and more exposure that is making us aware to um a lot of um recent things and a lot of recent hot button conversations like mental health, and so we would appreciate every single information we can get about certain things. And then I guess um lastly, one thing they should hear about, they should I I really want them to hear is the fact that they should uh relax with or they should be more diligent in how they do certain things because certain I guess um poor decisions on their part means I have to pay more. And I'll give you an example. So um, towards the end, the my doctor's office had to do something called non-stress test, and basically what it is is that they put a band around your belly and then try to gauge the baby's movement because they want to make sure the baby is moving and that the baby, nothing has happened to the baby. So there would be a couple of instances where my husband and I would go and then they would do the they'll strap me in all the bandages and cords and ropes and whatnot, and then set up the machine, and then they wouldn't be getting the amount of movement that they needed. And so I would tell them that with some of the nurses, there was an instance where there was a nurse who was clearly a student in training, and even when she was putting the bandage and setting up the machine, my husband and I looked at each other because we could tell the way she was doing it was wrong, and so we were not surprised when she was doing it, and then she was telling us she's not getting like positive feedback, so we need to go to the main hospital and then have them like redo it. My husband and I were not surprised, but then the negative impact of she not doing it well was that it means that now the hospital is going to send us a bill because instead of we doing that test at our doctor's office and letting the insurance company pay for it, then we have to incur another cost because then now we have to cross the streets. Luckily, it was just like one street between my doctor's office and the main hospital. Now we have to go to the main hospital and then have the, I guess, professionals and the better equipment do all of that. And so I say this to say that if some of the professionals are much more diligent in administering kinds of care, it would be less financial burden on us because this thing I talk about, it happened like twice. So for every different doctor's appointment, you have a different nurse. And if the nurse doesn't do it well, it means that they're not going to get the numbers. It means go to the main hospital, let them do it, and let's be sure the baby is fine. And then you go and the main hospital says there's nothing wrong with the baby. And I'm like, okay, so couldn't the my doctor's office have done this? So I don't have to take time out of my day, I don't have to pay extra for me to come and lie down for 10 minutes, then you tell me my baby is fine because it just didn't make sense. And it means you're you're shelling out money that you could otherwise keep and use for something else. So I guess that would be my last bit of advice.

SPEAKER_02 49:31

Thank you so much, Matilda. This has been so insightful. And before we wrap up, I just wanted to point out that for our non-academic um audience, when we say mixed method, we're really just talking about using multiple sources of data. So, like collecting quantitative data, which is like the surveys, and then collecting um qualitative data, which is like interviews or conversations um with pregnant mom. Um, so yeah. Thank you once again, Matilda, for taking the time to chat with me today. I've really enjoyed our conversation and I've learned a whole lot. And I'm sure um our audience would be, you know, very appreciative of this conversation as well. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Birthing Beyond Borders. I hope you've learned something new or felting in today's conversation. If you're a mom listening today, know that you're doing an incredible job. And as a community, we are so proud of you. Please share this episode with another mom or with a friend who might find it helpful. Remember, you're not alone and you don't need permission to do the things that bring you joy. I'm rooting for you. Good boy.