PITT TO PUNCHLINES
From the chaos of the emergency department to the chaos of the stage, AK Agunbiade—ER Doc and Comedian—shares stories, lessons, and the humor from both worlds.
PITT TO PUNCHLINES
ARE YOU BLACK?
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AK and Mo (Mohamed Abdelhamid) chat about what is means to grow up Black in the US vs England.
Cold Open: Basketball And Identity
SPEAKER_00I'm an AK Gloombiade. I'm a black man who sucked at basketball growing up. I think it's important to think about historically why it's so important for a black man to be really good at basketball. Because if you think about it, it's the first thing we stole from the white man, you know? Like before we learned it was so easy to steal the winning. You know what I mean? Like with my first name being Abdul Kareem. Which sounds so close to Kareem Abdul Jabar, the first basketball. I didn't expect it to be fucking great. But I suck. It's the same feeling you get when you meet a white guy from Alabama and he's not racist. You're like, damn. I really wanted to fight you, but now I gotta be nice.
SPEAKER_01All
Welcome And Guest Introduction
SPEAKER_01right. Welcome to Pit to Punch Lines, everyone. Once again, I'm your host, aka Agumbiade. Super excited to have this episode with you guys. Uh, joining me today is a good friend of mine, Mohamed Abdelhamed. Uh, we're gonna talk about some fun stuff. You ready, Mo?
SPEAKER_03Brother, I've not heard someone introduce me as my full name like that before in a very long time.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, I'm ready. I'm I'm excited. Did it feel like your your mom was calling you off or something? Is that it? It felt yeah, there's a little bit of fear between me, but yeah. Um all right, all right. Well, we're gonna we're gonna talk about a lot of fun things today. Um to start off though, um, I have one important question for you. Are you black?
Are You Black? Sudanese Roots
SPEAKER_02Ooh, jumping right in, deep end.
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah. Okay, okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um yeah, I mean, I'm I'm originally Sudanese. Okay, cool. Uh so born in Sudan, two Sudanese parents. Yeah. Uh Sudan is a melting pot.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Uh don't like most people aren't aware, but we have the full spectrum of uh skin tones. Yeah. As you can see, yeah. My ancestry was uh they they dabbled in the the the white arts. Uh so we had uh yeah, we have we've had you know Saudi ancestry, Turkish ancestry, Egyptian ancestry. So um we we're a bit of a blend. I can remember. But if you look at my family, if we line up in a row, yeah. Uh some of us are Idriselbers, some of us are uh um Rachel Dalzall. Not the Rachel Yeah, we are here. So yeah, I mean, identity-wise, we've kind of always had a bit of a crisis in in Sudan about you know we um we're a mixture of Arab, black. Yeah, um so I I refer to myself as black.
SPEAKER_02Okay. I'm in the US, others refer to me as black, so I'll take what they're doing.
SPEAKER_01There we go. Well, we're gonna get into that because as you guys saw from the joke at the start of the episode, uh,
Defining Blackness Across Borders
SPEAKER_01this episode is gonna talk about the ideas of what it means to be black, uh, how people view it in that way. And Mo, you tell us a little bit about kind of your uh your background in terms of of course where you were born, where your family's from. Uh, tell us a bit more about where you grew up and just like, you know, uh you already talked a little bit about how you identify yourself, but we're gonna get into that though.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So I born in Sudan, uh moved when I was six, seven-ish. We migrated to um Belgium. My dad was in shipping, so he traveled the world, and uh they finally decided to put him up in an office in Belgium. Um, spent a year there. That's funny enough, that's where I learned English. Oh, in Belgium, okay. In Belgium of all places. My dad was very strict. He was very strict. He was like, no one speaks Flemish in this world. You're gonna go to a private school and learn English. So yeah, I learned English there. That's fair. Um then he got relocated again to the UK. Uh we moved over there. Um, which was the reason behind it, my mum was born in the UK back in the day. Gotcha. Um, so she had a British passport, we had the British passport through her, so it was just much easier to go to the UK. Um, and yeah, just been in the UK ever since. Moved out here four years ago. Okay. Fell in love with an American. Yeah, it happens. She dragged me over here.
SPEAKER_01So now I'm uh yeah, I'm uh expat. Okay, that's what's up. Now thanks for sharing that. So I I I wanted you to talk about that a little bit because part of the influence or rather the motivation for this episode is because you grew up in the UK, well, after Belgium. Um and I grew up in the US after Nigeria, right? Uh I also consider myself black. Uh and we'll see. Uh, but uh for me, I think the idea of how people define that and how people see how you see yourself and also how other people see you is super interesting. And I want to get into how that differs between my upbringing, or rather, me growing up here versus you growing up there and how that plays out because it could be entirely different. Uh I was like, okay, let's uh let's get into this because it's
UK History And Black British Identity
SPEAKER_01not the same. So uh let me talk about like the joke a little bit, and then we're gonna talk about like different ideas, right? So the joke uh plays on the idea that my first name is uh Abdul Kareem or Abdul Karim, right? Uh I often went by Kareem in high school. Uh and whenever I I didn't, to be honest, I didn't play basketball growing up. Uh I, you know, I went to school, I came back home, and I, you know, did what I was supposed to do, and I was a big nerd, right? So I didn't really, you know, uh sports in that regard were not that important to be. But when I started playing a little bit, remember in like middle school, uh, maybe even in elementary school, actually, people just assumed that I was good, right? With you're black, your skin is black, you have the name Kareem, your accent is American accent, like, why do you suck so much? Like, I don't like people just confused, like, what is wrong with you, right? But I think it goes into a uh a deeper conversation in terms of expectations on people who are black in the US, regardless of like where you're from. Your outward identity, at least in the US, is that you are a black dude. So why do you or not do these certain things? So I'm like in the box. Exactly, right? Like this is your box. Yeah. Why the hell are you getting out of it? Like, make it like make it make sense from that perspective. So I'm like, okay, uh, for me, here's the things are expected, right? You're expected, of course, to be good at sports, uh, expected, um, especially basketball, right? Uh expect to be able to run fast. You're expected to like, you know, be particularly when it comes to sports, be good at that. Not really expected to be smart, not really expected to speak like different languages. You're kind of have these things that are kind of given to you, and that's like all that's expected of you to a certain extent. Um, it can be applied to your friends, but also your teachers to a certain extent who may have less expectations of you, just like seeing your skin tone. But can I preface? Yes, please.
SPEAKER_03Those expectations aren't from our community, though.
SPEAKER_01No, not at all. No, not at all. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Brothers looking in have these expectations.
SPEAKER_01Well, to actually piggyback on that, um, so uh the couple questions that ideas I'm thinking of. Uh I uh obviously the English also had history of slavery as well. Um I don't know many just black Brits, if that makes sense. You know, I've got like people who you know have that history or from the UK. One, uh, do they exist and how much of them are there? Because a lot of people I know are either you know
Labels, Stereotypes, And Groupings
SPEAKER_01African of some type move there or like Jamaican, besides Caribbean, right? And also two, are there in the same way certain expectations people have of black Americans the same for black Brits? Just looking at that from that perspective, as far as you know.
SPEAKER_03So are the I mean black British uh the black British identity, I think it's it's been around for centuries. A lot of people uh uh assume that you know the the black population really spiked during with the Windrush era with uh a lot of the Caribbean coming over or uh a lot of West African people coming to the coming into the UK. But really, uh there's been documented um like historians have found in the royal family there are people who have been married into black people. Interesting. There's a lot of tapestries that depict black individuals in like noble positions. Gotcha. As in from other noble families who were interesting. So um I believe I I I don't wanna I don't wanna screw this one up, but there was uh we'll fact check later.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Get the Wikipedia up. Uh there was uh a family who focused on tailoring, I want to say. Okay. Um who was black. Uh so I mean, did they have the most noble positions in the UK? I'm not sure. Yeah, that's right. That's that's my st I I just don't know. Gotcha. Uh but they were there. Okay. Um and obviously slavery was a thing. Um I don't know the specifics of numbers and cool and dates. I do know though, there was an interesting fact I found out recently, up until I want to say it was like 2016, uh, black people in Bristol were still paying a tax, or a portion of their tax was going towards a debt that was from slavery. That was it was basically a loan that was taken out to pay slave owners to um I I actually heard about this. Yeah, to to to buy off the slaves essentially to so that the slave owners weren't in a negative position. Right, right. Uh so up until 2016, yeah, black people were still paying. Dang. Uh uh I guess a loan that freed their ancestors. Interesting. Mental. That's wow. Yeah. So the UK has a sordid history anyway, but when it comes to uh black slavery, it's um pretty rough. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's interesting. Hmm. Okay. And then like nowadays, like let's say in modern um England, uh, are there expectations, or rather, either good or bad, of if you are black, like what is expected of you in society?
SPEAKER_03It's it's it's a tricky one to answer.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03Because I mean I I don't expect it to be the same in any way. I it definitely isn't the same. I think the US definitely does a job of grouping people. Um in the UK, funny enough, there's groupings within the community. Okay. So there are stereotypes for the Caribbean community, there are stereotypes for the West African,
Global Black Identity And Tensions
SPEAKER_03East African, South African. Like every community has an a level of negative stereotype that's attributed to them. Are they always negative? That's a question. No. Okay. West Africans, Nigerians are known for excelling um academically. Overachievers.
SPEAKER_04They try, they try.
SPEAKER_03Uh, East Africans were known for huge foreheads and buttons and arse. That's that's just what we do. Uh no, I'm joking. I mean, uh not always negative, no. Um, but again, it's not it's not as persistent as it is here. Okay. I just feel like here, as soon as I got here, I just felt like everyone was labeled immediately. Yeah, interesting. So when you introduce this topic to me, I was like 100% get it. I get it. Yeah. Because it's just it really, in my opinion, it's not the same. Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. No. Um, and I didn't really expect it to be in uh like uh i in many ways, but I think that uh the world and their view of people who are black often is I think painted by the US and maybe the West and also specifically the US in many ways, right? So like the uh stereotypes that they have, like what they expect of people is is that, right? It doesn't really matter anything else. Uh obviously, uh in the UK, the um the patterns of immigration, also the the people who are considered black uh may have, of course, a history somewhere else. And it seems like it's a bit more nuanced in that like regard. Um, I don't know. I I I I I think for me, uh, when I think about like the black identity, uh, I also kind of want to talk about the idea of what our um our people, when I said by our people as in like people from our uh cultural background and how they see blackness in many ways. Uh you identify as black, I identify as black, is not a thing, right? As in as in it's not a big deal for us. It's easy for us to say that. But I do remember uh some of my uncles and aunts, um, even like my parents, when they're like, I am not black, right? Like it's the idea that being black is seen as a negative uh characteristic or negative attribute uh because of what is portrayed in the media.
Divides, Privilege, And Media Narratives
SPEAKER_01Um hence, uh interestingly enough, particularly here in the US, sometimes it's kind of an adversarial uh relationship between people who have West African origins and people who are African American being, and I'll be honest, I'll call it out. I think it's kind of a superiority type complex that they have in that regard. Uh, I don't know if you've kind of um either experienced that or been able to see that nuance here while you've been here.
SPEAKER_03Uh I've definitely experienced it. Um married to an African American. So her family, I mean, I I wouldn't say it was like it's it's negative, but they've spoken about it. You know, they've they've definitely made it um a thing. Yeah. Um I will say though, I I think it's important to define what black is. Yes, agreed. Because when you look at I mean, in the UK, we will it's a very lazy way to define or group a group of people. Like I mentioned earlier, you have East Africans, West Africans, all of these people, in the eyes of a white British person, are black. Yeah. But if you asked, if I was walking down the street and a black person stopped me and they're like, oh, where are you from? Yeah. I'm not gonna say, oh, I'm black. I'm gonna say, oh, I'm Sudanese. You'd say, oh, I'm Nigerian. So you kind of you go back to that. Right. In the UK, in the US, obviously, given the history of slavery, yeah, they don't have that to lean back on. Not even to lean back on, they just don't have that record. Right. They don't know what the you know initial ancestry is. Of course. So that's why I honestly believe that we're labeled as black, yeah, but only American black people are black.
SPEAKER_01That's fair.
SPEAKER_03They've created a culture. Interesting. I I I I kind of get tired of people saying, you know, but what are they? How many generations have they been in this country? They're American. Yeah, they're American. These are American people. Right. So I think it's it becomes this country. Brother. Right, right. So it's time to, I think for I think a lot of us outside of the American community to just be like, okay, we're labeled as black, yeah, but let's not try and take something from them. That's true. Yeah. Because we're not.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03Like, right, right, right. And they've had enough things taken from them. No, that's people bite from their culture all the time. No, that's fair. And I think, yeah, at some point we have to kind of say, sure, you might label me as black. Yeah. But I'm not just gonna ride someone's quotails and be like, oh yeah, I'm with them, I'm with them.
SPEAKER_01No, no. Of course, no, that makes sense. I think it's important not to, of course, take uh what they had built in terms of like the global black identity and how they've established that from that. Definitely not. Um, I also think it's important not to um uh not to try to separate yourself from that as well. And I say that because I think about uh different um artists, um
Sports Expectations In UK And US
SPEAKER_01activists, and other people who I think have tried to push the idea of a global black identity, and um, I mean the importance of that in many ways from obviously Makamex and fella Kutis in the back, like over there, isn't that right? Um, and the idea that yes, uh when we talk about, let's say, black culture and how who has brought that to prominence, have to give respect to people who are African American, of course, who have a history of slavery here, but also not to take away from the idea that having a global black identity is something important and for unity perspective, which I think is important to think about because I think sometimes when it comes to African communities, specifically talking about the ones in the US, when they're like get here and they're like, I am not black, like I am this and the separate, and also, of course, some say things that look down upon people who are African-American. I'm like, nah, you can't do that like that. Go to the corporate world and see how they see you. Exactly, exactly. You see yourself there. We're all one here, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And even for me, too, when I think about it, um, I talked to my uh my uh my sister about this. My sister is very interesting in the sense that so she uh we have the same dad, a different mom. So her mom is African-American, my dad's Nigerian. Um, and for her, she kind of talks about this in a very different and nuanced way as well. Because for her, like she's kind of experienced uh both, let's say, African-American culture, but also Nigerian culture. And, you know, for her, we had different experiences in terms of how the idea of a black identity can actually also help you maybe later on in life, in terms of, let's say, in the work world. I'm in medicine, and I think within medicine, it doesn't matter whether you're, you know, this black or that black, African or whatever, there's a lot of unity that is there because there's not that many black people overall in medicine. So I think we are all more likely to want to help each other than we do. Whereas my sister actually felt like it was a bit different for her, um, in the sense that she felt like uh she works in the world of business more. So she felt like there's more help if people knew that she was Nigerian, as opposed to, you know, for her just being black in general. And it may just be because there's like a lot more people in the business world than there is in like much,
First Trip To America And Security
SPEAKER_01much smaller uh, let's say medicine world where you don't have the flexibility to be like, I'm gonna choose this person instead of that person. Um, so that nuance is very kind of different to me because I didn't assume that because I assumed that, well, hey, for me, I was black and all the black people helped me get to where I am. But for her, she's like, nah, I think we're still more separate in some ways, whereas people within smaller communities will want to help each other regardless of whether they consider themselves black or not. It's just like, oh no, we're actually Nigerian have something more specific. So I don't know. It's I think the idea of unity is something we are still working on. I don't have perfect yet within like the idea of just being black here. I have a I have a theory.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Let me hear it. I think that in this country black Americans are still treated worse than Afric, like people who are coming from the uh continent. I agree. So and they're very much aware of that. Yeah, yeah. So once you're aware of something like that, yeah, I think it almost like uh naturally we're human beings. Yeah, I'm gonna feel some kind of way about someone who comes in and gets given an opportunity or benefit or a privilege that I wasn't afforded. Right. So, which actually speaks to how terrible it is, yeah. Um, like the the current situation is right. I agree. Um so I I don't excuse it. Yeah, I don't I think we should work towards you know finding uh a a place where we can all kind of say we are better together than we are apart. Yeah. But yeah, I definitely get it. I definitely understand why they feel the way they feel about people who are coming from the continent. Yeah,
Fears About Basketball Cred
SPEAKER_03not um white people have a perception that an African coming in from the continent is that they don't have the same like stereotypes as an uh black American. Right. Right. Which is sad. You know, I mean it's it's but it's the truth, it's the reality.
SPEAKER_01No, I agree with that 1000%. Interestingly enough, I think like this it's kind of ridiculous. And I think it's done to sow more divisions in many ways, right? Um, and one of the things I really hate, I've seen a lot on social media, which it honestly pisses me off, is the idea that I see often these uh white content creators uh will bring their African friend and will talk about yes, you know, uh Nigerians are let's just take Nigerians, they're so successful and this, this, and then. Why can't the African Americans do the and I hate that? I hate that so much because it takes one particular thing, it does not pay attention at all to the whole problem that is there, and then tries to use one community as an excuse for like why the rest, and when you're like, oh, you want to forget all like the systemic oppression that has been here and all this other it's like ridiculous, right? It's just I I I hate that so much. I'm like, you cannot use our community as and the truth is unfortunately, some af uh some Nigerians go along with
Kids’ Dreams, Role Models, And Options
SPEAKER_01be like, yeah. I'm like, bro, you just don't understand anything.
SPEAKER_03I think some people who are afforded the privilege, yeah, they don't want to lose that. So they will just let's just keep the status quo. Let's just if that's how you feel, that's how you feel. As long as I'm winning, truth, it is what it is. And it's sad, it's just a sad reality of this country. Sometimes, um, yeah, like as regularly, the black community is just trod on. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I agree.
SPEAKER_01From all angles. Unfortunately, yeah, unfortunately. Um, it is what it is. Uh, one topic I wanted to bring about in this conversation is um maybe like a fun, but also we'll get we'll get into a bit, is the idea of being black and expectations in sports. Just get into it. Of obviously, I think in the US uh there the there's a lot of that, but just to maybe focus on the UK a little bit, is that that same is there that same expectation that you're expected to be good at sports if you are black? It's a tricky one because yes, basically.
SPEAKER_03So give you a little bit of background. I grew up in a predominantly white area. Like when I say predominantly, I was our family was the only family in my neighborhood. By neighborhood, I'm talking six schools. Dang. The only black family. Okay. So yeah. I destroyed them in the sports. My best says destroy. Yeah, brother. I it was, it felt like I was an NBA player going up against not even G League, but I was talking like high school startings. Oh, yeah. It was, yeah, no competition. Um, I'm joking. I there was but it's not. There's definitely there was definitely an expectation that you're black, you're gonna be running fast. Uh actually, correction, there was one other black person in my school. Yeah, he was much older than me. I think when I joined the high school, he was graduating. Okay. He was oh my god, Usain Bolt, the Usain Bolt of my neighborhood. Gotcha. But again, and I fell for the same thing. I was like, yeah, of course he is. Naturally. Um, but yeah, there was definitely an expectation for sports. Um there was an ignorance, I think, in my community. I mean, I grew up, I moved to the UK in '97, '96, '97. Um that time it wasn't like the especially up north. I grew up in the north of England, which was very rural. Okay. Um, they didn't really see black people. They didn't know much about the black community. So it was uh it was there was an ignorance that at the time, honestly, most of the time, I I have to say I had a good experience. Okay. So I was and and I'm not saying not to say there's racism doesn't exist. I was very lucky. People around me just weren't that yeah, they weren't that negative. So um they just didn't know better. Okay, gotcha. Because they just weren't exposed to it.
Scholarships, Parenting, And Plan B
SPEAKER_03Internet wasn't that big of a thing. Um, I actually have an ex had an experience where this girl, I was friends with her brother. Yeah, she saw me for the first time, yeah, let out a little ha and her brother had to explain to me I'm the first black person she's ever physically seen.
SPEAKER_01How old are you on the seven?
SPEAKER_03Uh 11, 12. Yeah, yeah. So that that it just shows you that that's the community I was grew. I grew up in. Yeah. But it wasn't out of like, it wasn't out of fear or anything, it was just uh curiosity. Yeah, actually. But sports-wise, yeah, yeah, we there was definitely an expectation that you were gonna be the fastest or the strongest or whatever. Yeah, but yeah. In my case, just happen to it.
SPEAKER_00I was so bad to be true. I mean, you know what you do.
SPEAKER_03I will also say British sports, yeah. Cannot do nothing with a basketball brother. Yes, I bricks every single I am terrible. Okay, alright. And that was actually a very big insecurity for me coming to this country. Interesting, embarrassing to say. I remember all my friends were like, oh man, like what are you gonna miss? Like, well, this. I was like, oh yeah, there's so much in the UK I'm gonna miss. Yeah. So like, oh, what are you like apprehensive about? Yeah. They were obviously asking the question to be like, you know, there's racism or what are you worried about? I was like, I'm scared of black people looking at me and be like, hey, we're running a quick game, are you in?
SPEAKER_02Five on five. Yeah, five on five, let's go. Skin. What? I can't, I can I can just about dribble. I'm chucking up, I'm throwing, I'm see, I don't even know what the the term is. What is it?
SPEAKER_03Uh jump shot, my jump shot.
SPEAKER_00Oh good.
SPEAKER_03I am all good. Yeah, I know the TV.
SPEAKER_00Hold on, hold on.
SPEAKER_03Whimsical.
SPEAKER_00It's all good.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, basketball. I was just not that good. My jump shots, I was throwing them one-handed. I I'm
Sports As Gateway And Community Impact
SPEAKER_03just not good at basketball, so I was petrified that that was gonna be a reality. I was gonna come here, and it's just so silly. Like, but I was gonna be at YMC and someone was literally gonna be like, let's go, let's get it going. Yeah, it hasn't happened yet, but it does. Embarrassing.
SPEAKER_01All good, all good. I uh uh I was gonna say, like, the first time you came to the US, though, when was that? Do you remember?
SPEAKER_03The first very first time I flew into the US, I uh me and a group of friends flew to New York 2015. Okay. Okay, how's that experience? I flew I flew in on September 10th. Okay. Yep to New York. Okay. Uh with three friends of mine. Okay. Alex. Yeah, Yusuf. Okay. Oh, interesting. It was an experience, brother. It was September 10th, you said. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, and my friends are very sarcastic. Oh boy. Uh so I was concerned immediately. We get to the airport, um, obviously, highly high security, high alert, and I'm just panicking because I'm like one of these brothers who's gonna say something that's just outlandish.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, they asked us some interesting questions, to give you that much. Screenings happened. Okay. Um, one of the questions asked, uh, are you now or have you ever been a part of Al-Qaeda?
SPEAKER_03Stand a run of the mill, right? But me being me, petrified, in front of a person with a massive gun in front of me. Yeah, I was like, No, no, no, never once, never once in my whole entire life. My other friend was like, Wow, bold. Yeah, they held him for a while. Bold luckily he was let go, but yeah, yeah, it was just silly. Um yeah, that that was my entry into this country. So it's an interesting one. Um I actually sometimes feel like my Muslim identity is not questioned, but it's it's it plays more of a part in my identity here
Athletes, Leadership, And Culture
SPEAKER_03than my blackness. Gotcha, I gotcha. Obviously, fly skin brother over here. So slightly different situation. But um when you're Mohammed Abd Hamid, you have the Hamid the Bahrain talk. Right. It comes up a lot. It definitely comes up a lot. So yeah, the New York experience was interesting at the airport.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, to say the least. Probably a more varied and I would say probably lighter experience uh than if you flew to let's say Idaho and that was your first experience.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay. Um I I want to kind of uh reflect a little bit on about your perspective in terms of sports, right? Because we kind of started the episode talking about that, right? The expectations people have. For me, I already mentioned it before, I was expected to be good, whether or not you even have the physique of being someone who's good at sports. I mean, for Nigerians, I'm like petite size, essentially, right? I'm not I'm 5'10, right? Uh, but you're still expected to be good, you're expected to be faster, like regardless of all those different things. Um, but I remember thinking about that a lot, right? And I I I think about that a lot from a little bit of a couple different perspectives. Um people tend to see what they are capable of doing based on their community. And I remember being um very uh annoyed by the idea of just expecting black people to be only good at sports. I say that because um so uh uh in when I was in medical school, when I was on my pediatrics rotation, I was in the south side of Chicago. I went to a pediatric uh primary care clinic around there. Uh the uh the supervising doctor happened to be this uh South Asian woman. Uh, and I saw a lot of you know, black boys and black girls, um, very young, you know, kids. Uh and I remember I always asked them, What do you want to be when you grow up? What do you want to be when you grow up? And obviously, this is not um statistics. Uh uh, this is just my own personal experience. But I remember a lot of the black boys would always say something in sports. And I remember I remember always be like, oh, what's your backup plan? What do you what else are you doing? You know, what else do you like? Right, right, right. And I remember this uh supervising doctor was like, You're kind of intense. Uh you're what you call for those tiger, uh, future tiger pairs or whatever. Uh but for me, I remember doing that. And obviously, we talk about, let's say, the Nigerian community and how focused that community is on education. Um, and it's not that I don't think people should pursue sports. That is great if they're able to do it, great. Uh, but I just remember just thinking about that to a certain extent, um, from both a historical but also sociological perspective, that for a lot of, let's say, um, African American boys in this country, uh their pathway to success may that they see regularly is either through sports and sometimes through entertainment, we can say not everybody. Um, and I think things are changing, but majority, if you grew up in certain areas, are not as great. If people around you not necessarily successful, when you look at the media, that's what you see. Um, I and I thought about that in many different ways because it took me back
Reflections And Closing Thanks
SPEAKER_01to kind of thinking about back during the civil rights movements to a certain extent. Sometimes for black people who are successful, the main and only pathway was through sports or entertainment because like the laws didn't allow you to get access to school, right? So you couldn't go down that pathway. But in even in addition to that, even if you want to go to school, your access to schools was limited because of segregation and other things as well. Um, and I'm like, oh that's interesting from that perspective. Um, and never uh I I I think in those moments I kind of reflected upon how the narrative that you have uh and how you see yourself in other people who look like you can dictate what you think that you can achieve.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. Well, I actually think there's uh a lot of similarities you can draw between the experiences that we've had living in our respective African countries and the experience of a black community here. Yeah. Where we growing up, my my family is like my extended family who's living in Sudan, they would never allow their kids to like if my if their kids turn out and said that we we want to go to a liberal art school for why? What are you gonna do with them? Right. There was uh definitely an expectation out of like survival instinct that you're either gonna do uh law, yeah, medicine, or engineering. Yeah, like they're the three things that you're pushed in. Yeah. And I remember thinking, I I felt I felt sorry for them, you know, growing up thinking, you know, the world's your oyster. Right. You should be able to do what you want, but the world really isn't our oyster, right?
SPEAKER_02You know, right.
SPEAKER_03That's the reality. Yeah, we live in the now. We don't live in a you know utopian world where everything is available to you. We do not. So you really do lean into the strengths, um, or like your perceived strengths because given your circumstance. Right. And I think that's similar to what the African, like the black community has done here. Yeah. Um, where again, like you said, you're limited in terms of your uh academics. Yeah. So what do you do? You lean on your strengths. Right. You lean on what you can do, what you've what you've seen success in. Right. I think now we're coming to an age where or we're approaching, they don't think we're there, yeah. We're approaching an age where um there are so many examples of people who've made it or been successful in multiple fields outside of entertainment, outside of um yeah, like just entertainment. Right, academics and academics, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um it but I still think that there is a fear in the community that you only have one life. Yeah, you have a strength over here, yeah, you have an opportunity, especially I think the scholarship programs that's a massive incentive. Like I have a wife who had a volleyball scholarship, uh, my brother-in-law had a football scholarship. Exactly. I spoke to my mother-in-law, she was like, I didn't want to pay. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. I didn't want to have to pay for school.
SPEAKER_03Exactly, exactly. They were gifted, actually gifted, exactly. So of course they're gonna go in that direction. Yeah, and that makes sense. Yeah. Hamda, we play, we praise God that they made it work. You know, they outside of volleyball, they've they have great careers. Right. But um, they had great parenting that allowed for that. Um and I think I think that maybe that's it. Maybe it's just about you know having good parenting that you know you you push and you work towards your like uh strengths, but right you know, you also have someone saying to you, listen, you know, right. Like you said with the the candidates, like, listen, you gotta have a plan B. Exactly. Everyone makes it to the NBA.
SPEAKER_01And we can't we can't forget the uh I think unteachable skills that being in sports to a certain extent something that has so much discipline teaches you. Um obviously, like for people who are gifted um athletically, but then also um our nerds, like myself. Um, but oh, just people in general who like are smart, and there are a lot of people who can do both. Um sports can also give you an opportunity, especially in this country given how much uh how lucrative it can be, to not come out of college in debt, right? To have an opportunity to study in different ways, uh, but also to kind of give you leadership skills in many different ways. Um and actually I think about that a lot uh when I um I don't know if you've ever been to the the uh Smithsonian uh Museum of African American History in DC. We queued up for four hours and it closed.
SPEAKER_03Okay, it wasn't four hours. Yeah, we queued it for a little while and then yeah, it was he turned out the biggest closed thing there.
SPEAKER_01Uh um one day. Uh yeah, one day, one day. Um I uh I love this museum. I've been twice now. Uh and I remember kind of uh my thought process of I think what sports means to the idea of being black in this country, it helped that perspective grow in many different ways, right? Because it it helped me see many things, right? Just from simply it being a gateway and a ticket to opportunity for when you didn't have any other gateway at all. Literally is the only way I mean we we already capitalistic society, so it was the one way people could. But then in terms of leadership, but then also when we think about what it means to be an athlete in maybe the civil rights generation compared to now, let's think about Muhammad Ali in that perspective and what it meant for him to get to that point and become so prominent. And I mean, it it literally gave people so many different opportunities and what it meant, both from civil rights to education to other things as well. Because as these people made money, not saying everyone did it, they also can put that back in their own communities as well. It was kind of like a gateway, which I thought for me was super sobering and amazing thing to uh reflect upon about perhaps how like sports um did a ton of good within the black community.
SPEAKER_03Um I do think that they but I think it was a different mindset back then. It was. I think these are people who just happen to be entertainers. Yeah, that's fair. They they uh Muhammad Ali didn't have to give back to the community, he chose to. He chose to, that's true. And I definitely think there are definitely that there are superstars in today's age who are giving back to the community, yeah, but I don't see them as a role like leaders. Yeah, I think that's the difference that we're in the the position we live in now where I'm not looking at LeBron for guidance, you know. Like he's an incredible Navy a little bit.
SPEAKER_02I mean he manages to keep that hairline crispy. I don't know how he does that one. It's a different story.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I don't know, some guidance there, but yeah, no, I agree with you. But no, no, but I just don't think that um we we have those, or maybe we just don't look at them, we look for them for that anymore. Yeah because I mean like there was a Dave Chappelle skit. Yeah, it wasn't even a skit, this is real life, this is something that actually happened. Yeah, after 9-11, yeah, it was Fox News or CNN, and they were like, oh my god, this tragedy's just happened. We need to get we need to get Ja Rule on the line. Ja, what do you think about what just happened?
SPEAKER_02And I was like, I don't care, I really couldn't care what's going on like what Ja Rule has to say about this.
SPEAKER_03Uh Rule.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03So I think they're pushing like uh entertainers as the role models when we do have role like people who can be true role models in the community, right? But they just I don't want to sound like conspiracy theorists, but yeah, I mean we can we can put our little tinfoil hats on and get to work. Next episode. Next episode. But yeah, I mean the maybe there's a reason why certain people don't want that. But yeah, that's fair. I think as a as a as a collective, um the we definitely the the black community definitely has yeah, role models and leaders out there. We just yeah, yeah, yeah, we lean on the athletes a bit too much.
SPEAKER_01No, I agree. And I think like perhaps the athletes are easier people to be able to um people already like them, people already watch them a lot. Um hence it's I don't say it's natural, but it's uh often easy just to kind of listen to whatever they have to say about all the things, whether or not it is within their lane or not, right? Because people may because I uh not that I'm giving LeBron or other maybe major athletes an excuse, but uh they're often asked about a lot of these things in the world, right? What do you feel about this? What do you feel about this? What do you feel about this? And maybe for them the the the curiosity is not really there as much as it was in the past, or rather they didn't have to be as they didn't have to be as thoughtful or know as many things. Because Muhammad Ali, like he was a global superstar, like he went around the world learning about the world all throughout his life in different in in in in in different circumstances. And I think for him, of course, given the rise the time of the civil rights movement, he kind of I don't even say he had to, but I think perhaps being sometimes maybe outside of the US was sometimes better for him too. So I don't know, maybe that one built upon the other, not sure, but that's kind of how I think about it. No, yeah. No, yeah, I agree. Um, but yeah, okay, cool. Um, I don't know. Um, I think for me ultimately, uh like when I kind of thought about uh talking about this episode, um, it was just like a conversation about what it means to be black and like how that has fit within like our own identities and how that kind of manifests nowadays. But I think we went into like a couple different ways, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Which was great.
SPEAKER_01Uh but I want to say appreciate your time for coming on the podcast, Mo. Um it was a riveting conversation with you as always. Um, but uh for the rest of you guys, thank you for uh listening to uh to punchlines once again. Uh we hope you enjoyed the episode and we will see you next time.