Welcome back to our series finale. I'm Bryan Roseveare, and I'm here with Cédric Coffignal for what is officially the series finale of our deep dive into Competency-Based Training and Assessment. Cédric, how are you doing?
Speaker 1Yes, thank you, Bryan. Happy to be with you today again.
SpeakerYeah, we've made it to the last episode when we started you know earlier on it it felt like a mammoth, a mountain ahead. But I've really enjoyed chatting to you, I must say. It's been a journey and one that no doubt we're gonna continue. But we started by defining what CBTA actually is. We unpacked the core competencies, busted some of the biggest myths, and in our last episode, we got into the operational reality, what it actually looks like when you're running CBTA day to day in a training environment. Today we're shifting gears a bit. This one's for the decision makers. If you're a Head of Training, a Chief Pilot, or sitting in the C-suite at an airline, this episode answers the most important question. Why now? We're going to tackle the business case, the regulatory timeline, and most importantly, the roadmap for making this transition happen. Because let's be honest, the question isn't if anymore, it's when and how. Let's get into it.
Cédric, let's start with a big one. Is this transition optional? If an airline decides to stick to legacy training for the next 10 years, what risks do they face?
Speaker 1Yes, for now it is indeed officially optional. There is no regulation mandating it, except in a very few countries, for example, like in China. In China, they've implemented what they call a PLM, which will become mandatory by 2030, including the CBTA, but it's very, very few countries about it. But furthermore, even if in many countries, the regulatory framework has nonetheless been defined. And the fact that both systems exist and coexist in operations is already proof of the change. But in 2020, ICAO published a very famous document, the PANS Training 9868, followed by numerous white papers published by IATA on EBT and CBTA implementation. Major OEMs like Airbus and Boeing are pushing hard for the implementation of this system. And we know that new regulations are coming about CBTA. So I cannot say for sure that it will become mandatory. Personally, I don't think it will become the norm, or at least not in the near future, but it will for sure become the new internal training standard. It will become the standard, I'm sure of that. So consequently, an airline that doesn't make this transition will, in my opinion, begin to gradually isolate itself from other airlines that have implemented the CBTA. This isolation will occur naturally due to the data that cannot be shared with other airlines, with the regulator, with the manufacturer, etc. etc. So I think no, not mandatory at a time, but the risk in the future is to become more and more isolated compared to the other ones.
SpeakerNo airline wants to get left behind in anything. I mean, we're seeing it now, the major carriers, just the in-flight connectivity on airlines, Starlink, and that being in the news. And because if one airline's got a competitive edge somewhere, then that gap can widen very, very quickly. On the training side, well, I suppose we'll talk about it a bit later, but you don't want to get left behind in terms of training.
You mentioned data there, data's popped up a few times. We've got a bunch of data. What do we do with it? Why how does data fit in? What is data all about and how are we going to use it in CBTA?
Speaker 1Yeah, data plays definitely a central role in CBTA in EBT because it is thanks to data and its analysis that programs can be continuously improved, thus constantly enhancing pilot competencies and finally, ultimately improving flight safety. Today, data from flight data management system, SMS system, recurrent training system, and ATO are not correlated at all. They are working as some isolated elements which don't talk to each other. Tomorrow, thanks to the CBTA system, all data will be analyzed and correlated. What does this mean? It means that thanks to this, we will be able to take a proactive approach in improving safety. Based on this analysis, we will be able to determine and to implement the right training at the right time. And this is clearly what is the changing element. For example, if thanks to the FDM or the SMS system, we observe an increasing number of go-arounds due to unstabilized approach. From this, we can analyze the root cause. Why? Why do we have this increasing number of go-arounds due to unstabilized approach and determine the optimum time at which I have to insert the good training in order to overcome this issue? Because it could be due to an issue in type-rating training, it could be an issue due to operational reasons. So in this case, we train more this aspect during recurrent training and checking, etc. etc. So this loop, which we define as internal loop, can even be shared externally, furthermore, with OEMs, with regulators, etc. etc. And this is that we call the external loop. So in the end, it allows us to work together towards an overall improvement in flight safety.
SpeakerAnd and who will be responsible for that? So you mentioned, so we're not just talking about the data of the actual session itself. I mean, while we've got the nine core competencies, we're going to be limited in the data we can collect per training exercise. So we're actually talking about the data that predates the actual training, the flight data recorders and all that capture a lot of information, your safety management system at the airline. Who will be responsible for that? So, I mean, if you take us at Simaero, we're not privy to that information unless the airline presents us with it. But the airlines have someone specific in their operations that is able to take that data, piece it all nicely together, and then do they provide us with that information?
Speaker 1Yeah, and it clearly depends again on your organization, what are your goals, etc., etc. But for instance, if I take the example of EBT, this data analysis is mandatory in evidence-based training. You have to take it into account. For us as a training organization, it could be the choice of the airline, but this is something for sure we are going to recommend. Saying, okay, we can tailored your training according to your needs, and your needs has to come from your data, coming from your SMS system. And we can, and thanks to the CBTA, it's very easy because they can say, okay, we have an issue on this, let's work on this competency because we have an issue in flight, we have an area of improvement in flight with this specific competency. So it will become very easy for a training organization to tailor a training for a specific airline.
SpeakerYeah, it makes a lot of sense. The flight dot analysis program at an airline contains a huge amount of information, and I suppose if you analyze that against what you're seeing in the simulator, you'll start to see various parallels. Going back again to what we spoke about a bit yesterday, that root cause. Exactly. It makes it clear that the root cause you might have to search a bit deeper for it than the answer might not be immediately there. All right,
let's tackle the elephant in the room. Implementing this is expensive. You've got instructor training, new courseware development, new software platform for an airline that's already tight on margins, where is their return on investment? Where are their future savings?
Speaker 1The return on investment is first and foremost about flight safety, and safety has no price first. But even if we look beyond that, which we shouldn't even do, the return of investment is obvious. If we focus primarily on the ATO aspect, mainly I'm talking about type rating, these kind of things, the savings are clearly made on online training. How many airlines need more than 40 legs before the line check for an ab initial pilot fresh out of the initial type rating? I've spoken with many of them, and some averages 50, 55, 60 legs before the line check, the official release. So meaning in the end 10, 15, 20 legs less with the third TRI on board, and meaning that if there are not in the cockpit, this is the time they can spend to fly real aircraft and with a job of pilot. So clearly the money saved is there. By having more competent pilots that will be ready as first officers earlier, means in the end necessary some savings. If we consider the ops part or the recurrent training and checking, this translates into fewer, I would say, incident in flight or error with financial consequences for the airline. By this, I mean, for example, a reduction in our landings or any other error requiring maintenance action and therefore associated with financial cost. But ultimately, I repeat, the only final goal is to improve flight safety, and again, flight safety has no price.
SpeakerYeah, I understand what you're saying there. I saw it at my previous airline. The simulator training, particularly for a type rating program, was very much focused to get you to the point where you could start line training. From from what I'm seeing here with CBTA, it seems to be more focused on making you ready to carrying fair paying passengers, yeah, as opposed to getting you ready for that line training segment.
Speaker 1Exactly. And it comes from again, in order to be aware of that, you just have to look at the definition of the CBTA given not by me, but by ICAO, which is a tool to assess the performance and to predict your performance in your future job.
SpeakerYes.
Speaker 1So in order, if you want to do really stick to this definition, you need even during a type rating to predict how a first officer will react in his future job, which will be a first officer in operation. And we train first officer right now for this position, meaning that in the end, for sure, they will be in a position to be released in flight in line check earlier.
SpeakerAnd obviously, because the type rating that's being performed is geared towards the operation you're actually getting them ready for, as opposed to having a generic type rating where you may even look at it like you have to retrain that pilot to get you ready for your operation, whereas this is now tailored for your operation from the very beginning.
Speaker 1Yeah.
SpeakerReducing the amount line check flights or line induction flights you would have to do beforehand. That makes a lot of
sense. Can I look throw another angle at you here? We're dealing with a pilot shortage around the world. Does this help us or will this help us upgrade captains faster or more reliably? Because if it does, it'll be a strategic advantage, not just a regulatory checkbox.
Speaker 1I would say yes and no. Whatever if it's for initial training or for captain upgrade. For once, I will start with the no. No, because it's much easier to memorize an item. Okay, meaning a task and reproduce it by art. This is something which is relatively easy. So in this case, I can more easily pass an airline assessment, a skill test, a command upgrade if I know in advance what to expect and exactly how to perform. Thus, in this case, with a legacy system, I have less chance of failure because I know in advance what will happen to me. And therefore, with a better success rate, I recruit more pilots and upgrade more captains. But in the opposite, we can also see the real side of things. By implementing CBTA, I will base my screening, whether initial or for captain u grade, on competencies. So if I base my screening on competencies, I will spend less money and less time on training people who I will fail in the future. Meaning that for sure, at the very beginning, I can have an increasing attrition rate for the screening to become captain, for the screening to hire pilot. But as soon as my screening is based on competencies, then after I'm almost pretty sure that the training plan, whatever if it is for initial or command upgrade, will follow the normal plan, and in the end, I will have a competent pilot, a competent captain, and I will have no at least much lower failure rate.
SpeakerYeah, listening to you speak there, it's almost like the legacy system, you're able to prepare for a check right, say for this command upgrade, we're using the example, in a much more sort of rote format. You know what's going to happen, you can prepare for the specific events that you're going to go through, and you might we call it sort of slipping through the system, this pilot slip through the system. Whereas with CBTA, it seems a little bit more difficult to just slip through that system. Yeah, you're gonna have to have a much broader understanding of the whole picture to actually get through. So understand that what you're saying on the failure rate side.
All right, so for an airline sitting on the fence right now, they're thinking this sounds good, but we don't know where to start. What does starting now actually look like? You don't eat the elephant in one bite, so what is the first step?
Speaker 1I think there is no predefined first step, Bryan. It really depends on who I am. I am an ATO, a training organization, an airline, both maybe. Where am I currently at? Am I starting from scratch? Am I already mixed EBT, baseline EBT? What are my ambitions? What is my roadmap? So a lot of questions. For me, the best thing to do is to first conduct a gap analysis, meaning that where am I currently, where do I want to go, what's the gap between the two, and how do I bridge it? This is the first question. And from there, an implementation roadmap with associated steps, resources, deliverables will naturally follow. As I used to say, there is no one specific pass, but as we say, all roads lead to Rome. So there are a lot of different ways to achieve the same goal.
SpeakerDo you think that there are some airlines or Heads of training listening now that are currently doing legacy training that might be surprised how much they've actually, if they do a gap analysis, you might find that slowly but surely over the years they've started to position themselves to be maybe a little bit more aligned with CBTA than they actually think right now.
Speaker 1Yeah, I'm definitely sure of this because there are quite good key people in this industry, and this is why I love it. And sometimes you have put in place some CBTA concept without knowing that you have put this concept. This is then after it's just a question, put a word, an official word right now, thanks to the CBTA wording, etc. etc. It's just put a word on something I've already put in place three, four, five, seven years ago. So, yes, sometimes the gap we can say, okay, I understand nothing on CBTA, etc. etc. But as soon as you have a real gap and you see, okay, you are not so far from this. You already do this. This is just right now, you just need framework. But for you to lead the transition will be very smooth because on the teaching and learning pillar, for instance, you already did almost everything.
SpeakerYeah, it might be quite a nice project, I suppose, for an airline to see how aligned they are and how big of a gap there is to CBTA. I think you might be surprised. It's an amazing industry we're in.
Yeah, it really is. You know, we'll relax a bit now and talk about, and I'm sure you've been, you know, in this situation before. You know, as a pilot, you can go to a dinner party with the people from other industries there, and there might be a brain surgeon in there. But the minute they hear that you're a pilot, I suppose even more so with you, you're a military pilot, everyone wants to come and talk to you, and everyone wants to find out a bit more about this industry because, you know, people not involved, they've really got no idea how safety conscious this industry is. I mean, just look at what we do at the moment. Every six months, you're putting your license on the line to go into the simulator to prove your not that you're just meeting the standard, but that you are perhaps even setting a new standard and pushing beyond it and complying with maybe new rules and regulations that the regulators lay down. And this happens every six months from the time you get your license to right to the end. No other industry in the world has this. And I think that's what makes this such an incredible industry to be a part of. It really does consume your life, and you don't even think of it as a job, it's just a part of your life. And when you're talking like you did at the beginning of this episode about safety, there is no price on safety. Yeah, and our job, particularly involved on the training side of things, is to make sure we're identifying these things before it happens. It is nothing worse than you know, if there's a an accident and then the NTSB comes out with information and then we all have to change post-event. Yeah, here we have data, we've used IATA as an example, we have data, and it seems very, very clear that this is the right direction to go.
Right, let's bring it home. Why, and I suppose this is the key question of the entire podcast, but why is Simaero the right partner for this? What have we learned from our own transition, our own implementation journey that we can offer to our clients?
Speaker 1For sure, I do think we are the right partner. We have the experience, the expertise, and above all, we have this operational, not just theoretical, approach to CBTA and EBT. And this is for me a key element. We are in direct contact with airline stakeholders. We know their needs, we understand their needs. And therefore, we are able to provide concrete solutions that are both tailored to their needs and compliant with regulation and /or the guidelines of major industry players like IATA or OEMs. Nevertheless, we must remain humble in the face of all of this. Why? Because everything is moving so fast today. Everything is changing quickly, given that, as we said previously, no real official regulatory framework has been defined. So things are likely to change, and we must adapt to this potential change. And as such, we have the network, the expertise to be involved in regulatory and strategic discussion related to this field. And consequently, we can anticipate and adapt our training and services to this development and support clients in this implementation and transition.
SpeakerYeah, it's very well said, Cédric. I totally agree. It's that support that we can provide. And this wasn't about a promotion and saying, come to us, it was about introducing CBTA as a training philosophy.
Just coming back a little bit, why is there no regulatory framework? Someone's skeptical listening to this saying, but hang on, legacy training works. There is a framework, it is available in the technical standards, there isn't a regulatory framework for CBTA. Is there a reason why?
Speaker 1Yes, we have, as we mentioned, we have a regulatory framework, for instance, for EBT. But as we mentioned from day one, EBT is only part of the CBTA. So the regulatory framework for EBT is currently existing, but as all regulatory framework for sure is going to evolve and to improve in the following years. But for the I would say the training organization side, type rating, etc., etc., nothing was written previously. And things popped up five years ago when ICAO published this famous PANS training, which describes this new methodology of course design. Meaning that thanks to this document, they close the loop to say, okay, right now we can have a real view of what could be a CBTA training organization. And then after it was the starting point. So it was in 2020. But as you know, in aviation industry, everything is moving relatively slow, again, in order to preserve the safety, etc. etc. So that's why it takes time. But as I told you, right now, things are moving. There are quite new things in the pipe from a regulator. EASA is working on a new regulatory framework for CBTA, that is going to be published by maybe not before 2028, but it's between 2028-2030. So things are moving for sure, but it takes time because regulator has to contact and convince all national civil aviation authorities, stakeholders of airlines, stakeholders of training organizations. It's a long journey for a regulator.
SpeakerI suppose a bit of time was taken as well because of the tools required to actually get this job done.
Speaker 1Yeah.
SpeakerSo you can have the understanding of how it should work, but these tools that you need, you need to take time and development that because it's ultimately software that you don't just create overnight.
Speaker 1Yeah. The complexity of the CBTA system is also one of the reasons it takes time. Because first we need to understand how this is what we discussed from now, what are these three pillars? They are not defined exactly like this. So we need to put concrete idea behind the very theoretical things. And as soon as you have done this, we have identified the fact that for sure, if you want to do it, you need the appropriate tool. Without the appropriate tool, for sure it will never work. And again, as we mentioned, create a tool, develop a tool for this kind of requirement also takes time.
SpeakerIt takes time.
Cédric, thank you. You've truly given our audience and me a masterclass on what CBTA really is, why it matters, and how to make it work operationally and strategically. We've covered a lot of ground in this series from defining the core competencies to understanding the why behind the regulation to breaking down the practical realities of implementation. If there's one takeaway I want to leave you with is this CBTA is not just a training method, it's a safety management tool that prefer that prepares our crews for the unpredicted, not just the rehearsed. And in an industry where the margins for error are non-existent, that matters more than ever. I'd like to thank you, Cédric, for sharing your time, your expertise, and your patience with my simple questions at times. And a massive thank you to Simaero for hosting and supporting this entire series. If you have questions about CBTA simulator training or anything we've covered, drop them in the comments below. We're here to help. And if you're an airline, training organization or aviation professional looking to understand how CBTA can transform your operation, reach out to Simaero. We've walked this path, we know the terrain, and we're ready to help you navigate it. If you enjoyed this series, please do not hesitate to share it with someone who may enjoy it also, and make sure you subscribe to all Simaero social media channels. I'm Bryan Roseveare. This has been The Training Standard powered by Simaero. Fly safe, keep learning, and goodbye.
Speaker 1Thank you, Bryan.