SPEAKER_02 0:06

Hi, everyone, welcome to Venture Northeast Currents, a podcast where we explore the challenges and opportunities facing pastors and church leaders across the Northeast. So today's conversation kind of hits close to home for many of us, self-included. Ministry is filled with so many good opportunities, good people, real needs, meaningful moments. But somewhere along the way, many of us find ourselves just overextended, overwhelmed, and kind of speaking from the heart here, quietly exhausted. Not because we're doing the wrong things, but we're saying yes to too many of the right things. So we're calling today's podcast, the episode, dying by a thousand yeses, because that's often how it happens. Not one dramatic collapse, but a slow erosion of margin and clarity and calling. And so today, joining us on the podcast is Dr. Greg Macon from the Macon Institute. Uh, Dr. Macon has spent years helping leaders develop clarity, health, sustainability in their calling. And he brings both deep insight, practical wisdom to one of the most pressing leadership issues pastors are facing today. When to say no. Hey, Greg, it is so good to have you on the podcast today.

SPEAKER_03 1:29

Hey, it's great to be here, Doug. Thanks so much. And I'm just uh really excited about this opportunity to be able to talk with you about these vitally important issues. And like you, I can so identify and have found myself here way too many times saying yes when I should have been saying no.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Greg and I go way back. Um Greg, you let's see. I think I was a sophomore, you were a junior, and we were RAs at Shenouana. You you were on the second floor, was I was on the third floor, you were with Jordan, and I was with Tim Nichols, and we were RA' together. And uh I couldn't say no then. I I'm still I'm still having troubles. Um, and that was a lot of years ago. Um, all right. So so let me just ask you a real basic question. Why do so many of us, so many pastors, have such a struggle to say no, even when they know they're overextended? What what what's up?

SPEAKER_03 2:29

Yeah, well, I think there's a part of it that we're feeling like we may be disappointing God. But I think if we're honest, we also maybe we're kind of losing people's favor. People don't like to hear no's. Maybe there's another point of just just letting them down. And I think there's even an element of being selfish, like we need to say yes, right? And then finally, maybe we have this kind of identity. Well, real shepherds never say no.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Yeah, and and man, that's that is so uh yeah, you and me, and we've talked about this a lot because you've been kind of my coach, my mentor, my counselor through through uh these last several years. You've been helping me. So, what's the difference uh between trying to be faithful um and being available to everyone all the time? And that's often the struggle, right? Our our phones are on all the time and we're always taking phone calls. So yeah, how do you how do you discern between those two?

SPEAKER_03 3:34

Well, let me go back to always being available as far as phones on. I mean, there's something that feels really good. I mean, we feel really needed, really wanted, very valued, right? Because of what we offer to the people. So there's something that on the inside, if we're really, really honest, that we really like about being so needed. But let me go back to your question, the faithfulness piece, right? I think that's obedience to God's assignment.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:01

And sometimes that has to be really specific and narrow, like what is our actual mission?

unknown 4:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:06

Whereas I think the idea of availability to everyone all the time, maybe this unconscious wish or attempt to be godlike, like omnipresent, and it feels really, really good.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

Yeah, yeah, that's it. That's so it's so crucial to understand the difference. There is a huge difference. Yeah, you we answer, we answer to God first.

SPEAKER_03 4:29

And and also Jesus wasn't always available. We get this impression, right? But he withdrew, yeah, he disappointed crowds that he's like, no, we're we're moving on. There were many needs left unmet, and he actually didn't heal everybody. Yeah, I remember one time picking up a missionary, and he said he was doing God's business, and therefore that meant he didn't need to take care of his family, right? So he was always on for everybody all the time. Yeah, but I I was kind of curious, like what scripture says that we neglect the things that are first and foremost, and we end up saying yes to things that are really good, but that are not really from God.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That it that's so important. So, how do we how do we as ministry leaders discern? Because that's the discernment is what we need in figuring out what I'm supposed to be doing, the opportunities that are truly from God, and just those that are kind of distracting us from the calling that God has for us. And and and what are what are some of the ways in which we can begin to discern those things?

SPEAKER_03 5:41

Yeah. Well, I think you started a great place. Does this align with God's mission that He's given for me with this congregation at this time? And sometimes we get a little bit of confusion because we see other churches doing this and other pastors doing that. And and so we end up kind of looking and comparing, well, we need to be doing all of that. Well, the reality is that there's only one of you, dog, there's only one of me. And so, what is that mission that God has given to us, called us to with that church for that given time? So that's kind of on the top of my list. Yeah, but the other thing is I get sometimes confused is what's mine and what's theirs? Is that their burden, their backpack to carry, and I'm carrying it for them? Or if that's a piano, as again, is that mine, or is that part of something that the church body or a small group is able to care, carry that with them as opposed to me having to carry it?

SPEAKER_02 6:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and it's hard, you know. I I think it's hard for us pastors sometimes, especially young pastors, coming into a brand new situation, and there are heaps, piles of expectations. Maybe, maybe it's from what the last guy did. And that gets heaped upon you, and there are expectations from uh the congregation leadership of what you are going to be doing in your role, and that doesn't help.

SPEAKER_03 7:14

No, no, so we have all of those, and then we also have expectations for that particular family. Are they big givers? We've been here, we were the founding members, or like we're really involved and we're leadership, and there's those expectations that come from them, and so all of those together, often when we come into a church, we're pretty unaware of most of those because nobody wants to come up front and say, Hey, by the way, this family over here, if they're gonna need lots of your time and your attention, do not neglect them and don't tick them off. And so all of a sudden, it's an unwritten expectation, and there are probably dozens of those. Yeah, and everybody has their own expectations, like I didn't like the last guy, so I'm hoping you're gonna visit more, or I love the last guy, I hope you're just like him. And so, oh, I have kids in the youth group. I hope you're gonna minister to them while you're at it, but I also have some single people I'm concerned about. Are you gonna take care of them? And then the list gets longer and longer off all of their expectations, and there's literally hundreds of them.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

I remember coming here 36 years ago, 37 years ago now. Um, and one of the first things was given to me was a list, had to be at least 50 to 75 people on the list of people who had left the church in the last 10 years and said, Will you call these people? Um, they're all attending other churches now, but we'd like to get them back. We'd like you to get them back. And unfortunately, I, you know, I was 27 at the time, and fortunately I had the wherewithal to say, no, that's reaching the already reached, reaching those who have already left us and gone elsewhere to another church, isn't that high priority for me. So I did have the wherewithal. Here's the question: how do you know what are some of the early warning signs that we're getting in too deep and we're dying by a thousand yeses? Are there signals that we ought to be aware of within ourselves of why of when we're overcommitted?

SPEAKER_03 9:21

Yeah, because I don't have the emotional gas. Um, it's one of like maybe it's the physical gas. Um, I become kind of irritable with the very people that I'm serving.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

Yeah, right there. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 9:34

And they're they're like a bit annoying.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:37

Um, another thing is inside, and this is so hard for all of us to be especially pastors, just to listen and to be quiet. But inside, am I becoming resentful? And um I'm kind of hoping and wishing and praying that people will be a bit more appreciative of all the work that I'm doing. After all, I am giving 150% and I'm exhausted.

unknown 10:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

Another one is that my family, God, or even myself get the leftovers.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:08

And unfortunately, I've heard that one quite a few times in my own home.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:13

Another one is that is there any joy? Or is it just more obligations and shoulds and must? Um, sometimes I would fantasize about being a garbage because he would come by, pick it up, dump it, and then he was done with his day, and there was nothing else.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

There are days I just want to go work at Home Depot. Just absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 10:36

I know for some guys, and they do this, they start over. And so they leave a church every few years.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:43

Um, and let's be honest, there's probably, and we don't really talk about this as pastors, but there's probably a fair amount of numbing with things like food. Could be drink, could be screens, it could be busyness, spending. And there's a whole list of secret self-soothing behaviors that, you know, we don't really want to talk about that, but that would be really, really true.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:08

And then a final one is that I can't receive care from somebody else without feeling guilty.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:14

And like, oh no, no, I'm good. I'm just a servant of the Lord. And so I can't even take in anything that someone might actually want to give me.

SPEAKER_02 11:22

Yeah. Well, that's a yeah, that one stings right there for me. Yeah. Yeah. I don't deserve, um, I don't deserve somebody else's uh affirmation when I don't feel like I've really measured up.

SPEAKER_03 11:35

And yeah, that's and and let me just pause on that. That's so important. I really appreciate your honesty because I haven't measured up. I haven't earned their and let's be honest, their approval.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:50

And I think most every pastor struggles with that because I think inside we want people to notice us and see how hard we're working and how much we give and give and give and give. And it feels really good when they stand up and they give a testimony about Pastor, you changed my life.

unknown 12:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:11

And there's a part of that that feels like, oh, yes, we're finally seen and we're finally celebrated for what we're doing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:24

You know, I at least it is for me, but and I'm sure this is for much of the audience today. Um, the whole topic of people pleasing, the whole problem of people pleasing is perhaps at the heart of a lot of this. And let's just talk about that for a minute. Why is it so dangerous? And um, you know, how do you know, how do you know you suffer from that? And again, I I think the problem for many of us pastors is we're not just we're not emotionally aware enough to realize that's going on within ourselves that we're we're just trying to we're trying to measure up. Yeah. Um, yeah, let's talk about people pleasing for a minute here.

SPEAKER_03 13:06

Yeah, I if we're honest, it disguises itself as false humility. Oh, it's nothing. Let's just give all the credit to God, or it shows up as servanthood or servility, right? Or compassion, or I'm the good shepherd. And so it kind of disguises that, which makes it look kind of nice. And people love it when we serve and we help and we meet their needs and we take care of them and we're there for them, and we're always available for them for whatever it is that they need in their life. And so it actually feeds us, yeah. And that's one of the dangers, right? Over in uh Ezekiel, I think it's 39. And um, God is saying about that the shepherds have been feeding on their sheep. And there are times in my own life in ministry that I actually got my emotional and relational needs met from others, and I could be a really, really good helper. And it felt really good. I mean, after all, Pastor Greg, you're the pastor that really I actually heard this, kind of laugh, but you're the pastor that really, really cares. Oh, oh no, no, no, we all care. But inside, and so what ends up happening is we can then start taking too much responsibility for people's emotions and well-being and their happiness. And that instead of equipping the the saints to do some of that heavy lifting instead of helping them grow, we end up taking on a little bit too much of their stuff. And so what ends up happening is there's a somewhat of an unhealthy church system that relies far too much on us unhealthy pastors who are depleted, exhausted, burnout, maybe even resentful.

SPEAKER_02 15:04

And this is so important, I think, because um it's it is the difference, right? Between uh a short ministry career and a long, healthy career that you know you, your your wife is happy and you're happy, and you grow old together happy. And and that this right here is kind of the difference. So, how do you let's let's just for a minute here talk about this? Um, I want to do two things. I want to talk about this theology of limits, theology of boundaries, um, and then I want to talk about kind of the application of it and what pastors could can do, maybe even what boards, overseers, elders can do for the pastor. And and and I've got I was I was just at a conference yesterday, I've got some good ideas, uh, what they said that they did at their church. So let's let's talk about that. But let's just first talk about the theology of limits for a moment, the theology of boundaries.

SPEAKER_03 16:11

Yeah. So the fact is, we're creatures, not the creators. And so um uh unlike God, um, is that He made us to need Him and to need others and have limits. So we have finite capacities physically. Um, we have these other relational and emotional needs and limits. Um, many have families and other responsibilities and things outside of just the church family. And so sometimes we think of limited limits as failure, but they're just evidence that we're human, right? And so I love the fact that Jesus embraced all of his. He took naps and boats, he chose 12 people, not thousands of people. He left towns and he entrusted people to do the work of the ministry. And it actually, when we try to do it all, it goes against how God designed the body, right? So if I try to be the whole body, I don't need anything. Well, it never really becomes interdependent like it's designed to be. And I, one of my first pastors was he worked seven days a week and he was there for everybody, but the body didn't grow and it didn't do the work of the ministry because he was busy doing it all. And so when he stopped doing that when he left, I think it was a real invitation of the congregation to start growing and maturing and growing up instead of being infants.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it and and that is so helpful for pastors to remind ourselves of the boundaries Jesus put in place for himself. It kind of feels like I can give give myself a little bit of rest as well. Um so how do we how do we legitimately logically apply that for ourselves? Um you know, I've got some ideas on this too of of what what we need to do. What would be some of the things on your list of ways how to do this?

SPEAKER_03 18:20

Yeah. Um well, I think one of the hardest things is just being able to say no. And there can be a lot of inner turmoil around that for us. We probably some of us grew up in homes where we didn't say no. Um, the only answer was yes, or when do you want me to do that? Yeah. And so we became very compliant. And so our no muscle really not didn't get navigated. So one of the things that I needed along the way is I needed to find some good relationships, some safe people that they were okay with my no and with my limits. And it helped me to be able to say no to this, because when I say no to this, I can say yes to this. But if I say yes to that, that also probably means I can't say, I'm gonna end up saying no to this over here. Yeah. And so those were some of the ways that I had to learn what my no's were and what my yeses were, and then to get some support from some safe people. Again, people that won't be like, oh, Pastor Greg, I mean, it's so disappointing. You're not more available for what everybody needs. And so there were people that could honor my no's and my yeses that helped me to get stronger on the inside.

SPEAKER_02 19:35

Yeah. You will you will be very proud of me, Greg, because last Friday, my day off, friend, friend from the church called. I thought he was calling to ask me to play golf. He called me and started talking to me about church stuff. And I called it quits. And I said, guess what? This is my day off, and I don't want to talk about this topic right now because this is my one day not to think about church stuff. And uh, you know, and he honored that. And uh but that felt good. It really felt good to to set that uh boundary in place.

SPEAKER_03 20:16

Yes, because you're not superman and God didn't make us to be superhuman, and we have limits, we need rest, we need time off, we need to get refreshed, we need to get refueled physically, emotionally, spiritually. And that doesn't happen if we're do-do-doing.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Yep. Yep. Some other things, you know, I'm thinking on the other side of things, the things we should be saying yes to that provide refreshment to our souls. One for most of us is probably date night with our wives. That should be like a no-brainer every week of a date night. Um, I was at a conference yesterday at a church where they actually give a gift to their pastor every um year, $2,500 gift over and above his salary for a getaway, $2,500 for a getaway for his wife. He and his wife, just the two of them, not the kids, but just he and his wife to get away. And I thought, that is so nice. A $2,500 stipend to just take off and spend time with your helpmate. Man, yeah, that's a blessing, you know.

SPEAKER_03 21:30

It is, yeah, it is, and I have to admit, my wife has actually given me a double blessing. And so uh we just came back from one of those. Again, no kids and no grandkids, as I love them. And you may have heard them in the background in the house. But also is that her and I have talked about times that each of us need to be away, yeah, alone.

SPEAKER_00 21:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:54

Some time just to reconnect, uh, search me and know me, God, and see if there's any anxious or Wicked way in me, and then again come to me, all ye who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest. And so one of the really nice gifts that um choice has given me over the years is just this kind of a free get out of jail card or a free pass card to go away for two, three, even sometimes four days. And it's not to a conference, it's not to be with anybody else, it's just to get away so I could recover. And there's so many instances of Jesus doing that. They would go to a mountaintop and he would withdraw to a lonely place for him to get refreshed. Um, I think in so many ways. And so those are a couple of things. The other thing that has been really helpful in my journey, and I didn't really find this until I think it was about 46, and I hit a wall, and my life quit working. And for four months, it was the worst depression. And I'm not a depressed guy for those that know me. But there was something that was amiss underneath the hood that was going on, and I had quit paying attention to it. And it was God's wake-up call to say there's something here that needs addressing. And that was the beginning of for me, and I know it sounds like a dirty word to most pastors because it means we need help.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:16

But that's 20 years ago, I started therapy. As a part of that, I've also had a coach in my life. I've also had a life team. These are people that were outside the church that were safe, could be trusted, that I could really be me, and we could have this different kind of relationship than what I needed to show up on a Sunday morning. And so all of those have helped me to grow on the inside. And one of the many benefits is being able to say no as well as to say yes to these other things that are really important.

SPEAKER_02 23:49

Yeah, I I tell you, that's invaluable, right? Um, you you know my very best friend uh very well too, Keith, who and and the blessing for my friend Keith is that he's outside of the church. So I can I can actually tell him all the the good, bad, the mostly the ugly. And uh, you know, and he doesn't know anybody. So it's kind of good for me to vent a little bit to somebody who's outside of that frame of reference a little bit. And um, you know, and and you know, he sometimes he's the guy who's yeah, sometimes he's the guy talking me down off the ledge, but other times he's just the guy who's speaking encouragement into my life.

SPEAKER_03 24:32

And because that is so much for us to carry alone, and sometimes again, we have to have this impression of onward Christian soldiers that we got to bear it alone, right? Right. And yet the reality is if you look at Paul's life, he talks about it in the in the middle of one of the books to the to the church at Corinth, that he's exhausted, he's overwhelmed. And he's he said he's got in the message is I've got fears on the inside and worries on the outside. And he said, I was refreshed by the coming, I believe it was of Titus. And then just that, and and then, and then Titus told him about the longings of the church and how much they wanted to see him and how much they wanted to be with him. And so there was this really cool thing that God did is that God brought him comfort and he brought him support and all that he needed through the coming of Titus and even through the church, and that he could receive from them some of those I call them relational nutrients, and that help rejuvenate him, bring him back to life, being able to go back to ministry, but he needed help too.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

Yeah. I I I want to get back to that um question about the leadership, the elders, and what role they play in helping protect a pastor from overcommitment, because um they can't be part of the problem. They gotta be part of the solution um to protect their pastor from being overcommitted. Um you know, I I think most of the pastors I I know um fail in not under commitment, but overcommitment. Um so how does an elder, how does an elder's board um uh help the the pastor? I again not being the problem, but being part of the solution.

SPEAKER_03 26:28

Yeah, yeah. Because I have to admit, over the years, I've had some not so good instances of elders really not looking out, and it doesn't mean that my interests have to trump the churches, right? Right, I'd like a two-year sabbatical. Can you guys pay for it too? No, not none of those things, but there was a couple requests, and instead of them saying, Let's talk more about that, I actually got shamed. Well, my past, my brother's a pastor, and he would have never asked for that. Remember, Greg, you're here as a servant, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-kind of a thing. And I had been serving, and there wasn't a safe place there for them to be able to hear my heart and to hear the weariness or the burden that I was carrying. So I would make sure that indeed there is somebody there that can do some of that. That's why some having a coach, as you mentioned, um, somebody else outside can be really, really helpful. But maybe across the board, as the leadership um goes, is that again, are there things already in place for a day off, at least one, right? Or vacations and Sabbaths. Have they set up clear criterion for what gets yeses, as opposed to maybe the loudest or the members that give the most, or these or da-da-da-da, and those people? Are they okay saying no and disappointing other people? And can they still report uh support you even when you say no to be able to do that? Then also, are they helping us to kind of share ministry? It's instead of a pastor center ministry that we end up doing all of the work? And are they committed to that as opposed to, well, that's just your job, Pastor? And so those are some of the kinds of things, and maybe even occasionally, like, you know, I would just check in to see how are you doing? And is there anything that you're carrying that that we could carry, the church needs to carry, or that's just really not yours at all to carry, Greg?

SPEAKER_02 28:34

Yeah. You know, I think you're right, because I think that's something that a lot of elder sports probably don't do is just check in with the pastor. You know, I uh years ago I kind of learned I needed to look at kind of the gauges in front of me and you know, my spiritual gauge and emotional gauge and physical gauge, and how are the how do the gauges look? And maybe maybe elders just need to pay more attention to asking those kinds of questions to the pastor. Yes, you know, again, not for um trying to beat him down or anything, just saying where can we come alongside you and and and help fill up your tanks in those areas?

SPEAKER_03 29:20

Because it's so easy for us to blow by all of those signals. And again, I can just be honest, there's a few times I felt like a martyr, right? This is my cross to bear, and this is what would make Jesus in the church and everybody else happy. And so I just ignored those kinds of things. And yet having somebody just stop and just say, Craig, you just look at and sound exhausted.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Yeah.

unknown 29:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

And it helps me to give permission to myself to just name the reality of what they already see that's already there.

SPEAKER_02 29:51

All right. So here's uh here's our last question then. What if? What if a pastor realizes they are already past the point of being burned out? You know, it's they're they're not it's not a brownout, it's a uh they're a burn that's full full on burned out right now from saying yes to too many things. Yeah, what are the first steps towards recovery?

SPEAKER_03 30:22

Yeah. Well, the first is to stop spiritualizing exhaustion.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:27

Hey, I'm busy, too busy, I got a lot going on. I mean, it it feels kind of good. And then people are impressed by that. Wow. Our pastor's really, really busy. The next piece would be tell someone safe, which we've talked about. I'm just not just tired, I'm exhausted. And that often means, again, finding some outside support, which is hard for us to do, but to get some help from somebody again, a coach, spiritual director. I also actually have a life group. And again, it could be other pastors, and that was such a important part of my life when I was in Long Island to have some other pastors that I could be real. I didn't have to edit with them, and they could accept me just as I was. And then two last things was why do I keep saying yes? So part of that saying no, and maybe another thing is just say, hey, let me just check on my calendar, pray about it, and I'll get back to you. And then the final one is just recover these rhythms, yeah. Whether it's sleep, our diet, our movement, exercising, connection with God. Um and again, back to this life team and life group that I talked about, learning to be loved when I don't produce.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:44

And I have nothing to give to the other person.

SPEAKER_02 31:46

Amen. Amen. So, so as we're wrapping up today's conversation here, the tension of what to say yes to, what to say no to. Um, maybe the question coming out of our episode today is not so much um what do I say no to, but rather what is God actually asking of me in this season? What are the true goals and objectives He wants me uh uh to actually accomplish? You know, that's a whole nother episode, probably. Um we should have a conversation around what how do you how do you begin to establish those godly goals for yourself in the next quarter or the next year? Um because all of your yeses should then kind of um flow into those goals or flow through those goals. So boy, this has been a great conversation today. And and I think we've got it we gotta dig a little deeper on some of these issues, Greg. So I hope you'll be back with us for another episode here.

SPEAKER_03 32:55

Well, it's been great being with you, Doug. Thanks so much for having me. Um, and again, for anybody out there, um, if you'd like to reach me, I'm sure Doug will lead you some contact information because my heart for 39 years um while I was in ministry is I wanted people like this in my life. I needed them. And so if I could be there to support you, to come alongside you and some of the challenges, I love the opportunity to do that.

SPEAKER_02 33:20

And you know, you know, here's what you bring to the table, Greg. You know what ministry is like in the Northeast because you are a pastor here in the Northeast. So um, you get it, and uh yeah, I'd love to give that information out. Like I said, we'll be we'll be having you back in the future on uh on these podcasts. So again, thanks for listening. We'll see all of you next time. God bless.