Currents
A Venture Northeast Podcast for Pastors and Ministry Leaders
Currents
Ep. 6 - Intercepting Mission Drift
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Shane Stacey, Co-Founder of Clarity House, speaks on the topic of the need of every church to continually refocus and realign its priorities according to the Great Commission. Mission drift can happen so easily. Shane has served in and alongside local churches as a pastor, coach and consultant for the past 25 years. Before joining Clarity House, Shane served as the Executive Director of Denominee, where he helped over 40 denominational and network teams lead with greater clarity and synergy. Shane also had the honor of serving as part of the national team for the Evangelical Free Church of America where he consulted and coached church teams in building a disciple-making culture that flows from a disciple-making way of life.
Hey, welcome to Currents, a Venture Northeast podcast designed to encourage, equip, strengthen pastors, ministry leaders across the Northeast. You know, one of the greatest challenges facing churches today is not hostility from the outside, it's drift from the inside. Most churches don't wake up one day and just decide to abandon their mission. Drift happens gradually. It's a new program added here, a tradition becomes untouchable there. Urgent needs begin to crowd out the important priorities. And before long, churches can just find themselves busy doing many good things, but slowly losing sight of the main thing. So the reality is that every church is perfectly designed to produce the results it's currently getting. The question is whether those results align with the mission of Jesus. So today's topic is really important. The title of it is Intercepting Mission Drift, Why Every Church Needs a Vision Audit. It's a very important strategic exercise. And joining us today on our podcast is Shane Stacy from Clarity House. Shane has worked with churches, ministry leaders to help them gain clarity, you know, identify blind spots, make strategic decisions, move the mission forward. So, Shane, thanks so much for being with us today on today's podcast.
SPEAKER_00Doug, it's great to be here, brother. Always good to see you.
SPEAKER_01It's good to see you. Good to have you here today. Um, so when you hear the word vision audit, the phrase vision audit for a local church, so uh explain that in kind of simple terms for us.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That's good. Uh I would probably define vision audit is in many ways as like a health check. Uh it's um a health check around clarity alignment um or clarity alignment effectiveness uh of a church's disciple making or disciple multiplying mission and vision. So simple terms, I would just say it's a it's a simple health checkup. You and I all need to go to the doctors, right? Where are vital signs at? Um, and in many ways, a vision audit is just that. Uh, is there a uh the clear vital signs that we know need to be there?
SPEAKER_01So why do you think churches struggle in this area with drift, drifting from intentional ministry? You know, they care deeply about reaching people, but somehow the main thing no longer is the main thing, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, totally. Well, I think there's there's several reasons uh I think that come up and they could be different. But um, one, it's let's just name it's natural, it happens over time. Um, it's uh it there's a natural tendency for any church to begin to focus inward over time. No church started um with a uh a sense of how do we just you know kind of huddle up um in many ways. Uh every church started with a vision to bring the gospel to a particular community, um, to a particular people. And over time, right, that there's just a natural turn inward. Uh, Doug, I think you've you've heard us talk about this before, but uh one of the things that uh we find we like to even use is kind of a metaphor uh around this. Because I would say I think a lot of times what happens in a simple way to answer the question is that the vehicles become the vision over time, meaning our programs over time become the vision.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00And um we use sometimes uh a uh a metaphor of a uh a car. You can picture that for a moment. Uh four-seater car. Let's say there's a vision's driving. Uh, and when any church starts, I'm in a church plant right now that we've just you know been a part of. And uh every church planner knows a church starts with a vision and a prayer. That's right. That's right. Uh and uh over time, uh vision that that got that is driving, would meaning that God is calling us into the future. What you know, who are the people that we're seeking to bring the gospel to? Why are we in this community? Um, that over time that that uh vision picks up a passenger. And that passenger uh ultimately is relational to disciple making. We just say it picks up people, and we're we're finding that in our church plant right now. Uh, and as it picks up more people, a third person in essence needs to get into the car. And that is programs. And the question is where does program sit? And program sits best in the backseat behind relational disciple making, supporting the relationships, not replacing the relationships. And then a fourth person over time is uh management, uh, which is just simply the accountable systems and structures that are necessary to help support vision, sitting in the backseat behind vision. Yeah. Um, but over time, what naturally happens is that vision gets tired and uh wants to take a nap or needs to take a nap. We actually think that vision needs to be you know recultivated about every seven to ten years. And so vision gets in the backseat and uh takes a nap for a moment. Management moves to the front seat and white knuckles that that steering wheel. This is where I've always belonged, right? Yeah, and I think management looks over at relationships and goes, man, probably found what you and I found, Doug. Relationships are messy, yeah. Uh right, right. So let's uh, you know, once the once program, I'd rather have programs up here. And so invites those just have making relationships kind of take a take a back seat as well. And over time you have management driving and you've got programs navigating. And that's just the natural tendency. If we're not recultivating vision about every five to seven, you know, 10 years, the natural tendency is that over time, I think our vehicles, the programs themselves, become the mission. And you and I know this. None of I don't know a pastor, I I don't know a ministry leader I've talked to that ever got into ministry uh to run programs. They got into ministry because they wanted to make disciples, he changed lives. But over time, they we often find ourselves running a church. And um, and so yeah, that'd be one way to respond to that.
SPEAKER_01You know, that is so helpful. Um, and I think so many of our churches absolutely need to hear that uh every five to seven years. Yeah. Yeah. I I I love that um that time frame. What you just said. If so let's say if a pastor is listening today and wanted to begin a vision audit for themselves, what do you think is one of the first questions they should ask?
SPEAKER_00That's great. Um, a couple of things that come to mind. But the first question I would say is um, can a as a pastor, can I clearly answer the question uh where is it that God is taking us? Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and it might be helpful, Doug, for us just to pause here for a moment and even just to find some terms because oftentimes words like mission, vision, they get used interchangeably. And I actually think that's part of the fog that happens over time. Yeah. Um, so I'm gonna just uh take a moment to define. I would define mission as what is it we do day in and day out? And the good news is Jesus already gave us a mission, yeah, uh, right, to make and multiply disciples. Uh we always say it's the great commission restated for our time and place. Um, and vision then really being uh answering the question, where? Where is it that God is taking us in this next season? And how are we joining him in that? So that's why I would say that the first question I'd ask is Ken as a pastor, as a leader, can I answer the question, where is it that God is taking us in this next season? With some clarity. And then the second question around that is would my leadership team, if I asked them pop quiz on the leadership team, if I asked them the same question, would they give the same answer? Because I don't, I mean, most leaders I know it's not that vision's hard. I actually think it's shared vision that's really hard. And so I have vision, you have vision, the elders at you know, vision, the deacons have it. And but the question is, are we all answering that the same way? Yeah, that's dangerous, isn't that right there?
SPEAKER_01That that's the dangerous question to ask. Because I have a feeling um you're gonna get uh yeah, yeah. Ask a a board of elders, 12 elders the question, you're gonna get 12 different answers.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yep, yep. I'll give you one other one. I think if follow-up to that might be um, we mentioned in those time frames a minute ago. When is the last time that vision was recultivated? I was just talking with a pastor actually out in the New England area um a couple weeks ago, and um he had planted a church is maybe about 10, 15 years old. So it's a young church in New England, right? Uh about you know, somewhere 10, 10, 15 years old. And that idea of um uh recultivating vision every about you know five to seven to 10 years was a new concept. And he and I just loved it. His his um willingness to say, you know what, we casted a vision 10 15 years ago, I think it was. Uh you know, 15 years ago when we planted this church, and he's like, I've never changed, like I never thought I never was even like no, it never entered my mind that the vision uh may need to shift in essence as we move into next, you know, different seasons of the life of the church. And so mission, right? Make disciples, uh, again, we could say that in our time and place, that's constant, that's true north, but vision, something being recultivated over time so that we can stay in step with what the spirit's doing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's so good. You know, here's a just kind of throwing this question at you, you know, let's say there's a church that's just had a new pastor. I just did an installation for uh pastor out in New York. Um would that be a good time frame to kind of rethink and and just you know, um reset the clock, reset the whole uh time frame or vision itself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It's a great time. Yeah, I think uh uh in a pastor's first uh any new pastor, their their you know, their first two years, it's a great opportunity. I mean, they're building trust, uh, all those sort of things. But part of, you know, you're walking the walls, but it is a really it's a next chapter of a of a church's life, and it's a wonderful time to begin recultivating vision for this next season. Uh around that. I always think of remember when um in uh in Isaiah 6 when it says, in the year that King Uzziah died, right? Yeah, yeah, you know, um I saw the Lord. Well, I think that was noted partly because Uzziah had been king for 50 some years. So most people didn't know another leader. It's like a season, it's like Isaiah's just naming a season was closing, yeah, a new generation was forming, and a new opportunity. And so we how do we stay in step with the Lord? And I think that's true when there's a succession change, a pastor change as well. It's a great time to do a vision audit. That's great.
SPEAKER_01So so how can a church how does a church evaluate whether its current programs, ministries, yeah, what it's doing actually aligns with its stated mission? Um you know, the you might have a good feel like you've got a good mission statement, yeah, but really does your does your actual current ministries and programs line align with that or not?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Significant. We um, you know, we actually even have churches come to us and it's like, hey, we need some help in our that we think we're stuck in our ministry pathway or you know, our um uh our ministry environments and things as well. And we'll usually pause in that conversation to say, well, can we lift our eyes off again, off the programs, off the ministries themselves, and ask a different question? Because I would say that your ministries or your pathway, you might say, is answering the question, well, how do we accomplish the mission?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, the bigger question we need to ask, I think you're getting at there is, well, when are we successful on the mission? And if um, if the mission is truly, uh the Great Commission restated for our time and place, so to make and multiply disciples, however you say that, um, that the success on mission is really around the quality and quantity of disciples that we're making, mobilizing, and multiple multiplying. And so um what I find, and Doug, maybe this is true different in New England than uh just I'm currently in the upper Midwest. Uh, we used to live out in New York and Connecticut area and things, but now we're in the upper Midwest. What I find is that for most churches, that question of clarity around what are the kind of disciples of Jesus that we're seeking to make mobilize and multiply that this uh specific local community desperately needs more of is usually pretty fuzzy. Yeah. Um, again, similar to vision, uh it becomes a place of that it's not that pastors don't care about discipleship, that leaders don't care about discipleship. It's just that over time, um discipleship begins to mean everything, yeah, and therefore in the end begins to mean nothing. So one of the things that I would just say uh or you know, lean into with that is are you able to articulate what are the kind of disciples you're trying to raise up? Do we have a first a clear definition, a simple definition that we when we say disciple, we all know what we mean.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then secondly, we would even take that just a little further and say, and is we have a four-color picture. Yeah, we sometimes call it your dream disciple at our church, we call it your everyday disciple.
SPEAKER_01Do Clarity House, you you guys have some of the best material out there for stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00That is that's yeah, but that how that that that um if if you can answer that question now to look at our ministries, um, now to look at our programs, yeah. Um, you can do some some significant assessment because if we're just assessing um attendance, you know, people's participation in the programs, um, that might mean what we've raised up good churchmen and women. But it doesn't necessarily mean that we've raised up good disciples that can make disciples. Yeah. So I always wanted before we get into the pathway or the ministries and valuation themselves, it's like, well, if we have a picture of what success on mission looks like, the kind of disciples raising up, now we can get down into, well, then are our ministries helping us raise up those kind of disciples in particular? I can tap a little bit more on even how to approach that, but that would be a first place I'd want to start is do we know what kind of disciples we're raising up? Now we can look at our ministries and assess are they really helping us do that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it you know, I just took a church in Manhattan through that process. The Clarity Clarity House provided. Um, and you know, it the unfortunately the process took a little longer because of my health uh situation, but we got through it. Um just this past January, they unveiled it to the congregation. Congregation was on board, and already they're starting to see um this turnaround. They're they're they're central, right downtown New York City, Manhattan, Central Baptists of Manhattan. So it's kind of fun to see a church that really is starting to see that. But that's yeah, that's what they did. They had to say, what do we want to see um in our disciples here?
SPEAKER_00Why do you can I get I'm just gonna I'm gonna know I'm flipping it here. What do you think captured when you said hey, the congregation really bought into it? Um, what do you think they were captured by? Like, what do you what do you think is different than um, hey, we're rolling out a new a new program or new like what do you think captivated the congregation?
SPEAKER_01The direction is clear and it was exciting to them, yeah, to see what they what they were now finally having a target and understanding this is where we're heading. Um and I remember the same thing happening here, you know. I've been at this church uh here in Central Mass for 37 years, yeah. But I remember early on doing the same kind of thing, mission, vision, values. Yeah, and after I got done, there was a pause and there was kind of a hush in the room, and suddenly applause. Yeah. And I I will forever in my life, I will forever remember that moment because suddenly this congregation said, Yeah, yes, yeah, that's what we're looking for.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um I find that the reason I was asking that too is um, and again, we could probably go on and on and tell different you know different stories on this. It it is fun because I think uh, especially when you're you're clarifying um in a simple and compelling way, yeah, even this is the kind of disciples. Really, what you're saying is uh to your congregation, this is uh who we're helping you become.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I think most people have a longing to uh to grow. Yeah. Like they actually, I I I then I'm gonna make a confession. Maybe you've never experienced it. I'm gonna make a confession of my own on here. And that is, you know, on my bad days, I will look at our even our congregation, all that, and I can just go, man, they're just you know this is all consumers. Uh right. And that's true. We're discipled in a very consumeristic culture. Yeah. But I I have come to understand my own experience on this and my own confession on this is that I think I sometimes misdiagnose. I had misdiagnosed what was going on. People needed clarity. Yeah. If they could get clarity, because I find, do you find this? People, I think mostly they they do want to take steps of of growth in their relationship with Jesus. I think people do want to leave a spiritual legacy in their family for the most part. Uh, I think people do want to make uh, you know, be uh an influence in their workplace and neighborhood. They just don't know how. Yeah, and they don't, you know, when you start giving them a picture of like, hey, you can become this kind of person, this kind of follower Jesus, it's like people start leaning in. Yeah, it's true.
SPEAKER_01It's true. Even in the Northeast. Even in the Northeast. That's right. That's right. Um, so so what are a few warning signs then that a church's mission has become unclear or diluted, disconnected from its activity? What what would you say are just kind of those, you know, lights going off that tells you things aren't right?
SPEAKER_00Um, what do we what um what would we count? What do we celebrate? Um I um, you know, Doug, I was in a um a church. This was a church that uh I um I served in for a few years, actually out in Jersey. And um that you know, on this side, what do we celebrate kind of thing? I remember um when uh it was said that, you know, hey, someone came to Christ this week, or someone led someone to Christ this week, and there would be some quiet applause. Um, if we said, um uh, hey, we took an offering for whatever, you know, last week and this much money came in, and all of a sudden everyone would clap, you know, really loud. I'm like, okay, we're clapping louder and we're more excited about dollars, which is wonderful. Again, I like let's give and let's give well and let's be generous people, yeah. Um than over people coming to Jesus, yeah. Uh on that, right? And it's a slow, subtle, like I don't think we even recognize it. I just like it was just sitting in the in the air. So I I do think that I think some of it is around like you can audit this around um what do um what are what do we um budget for? Um what's on our calendars? Yeah, yeah, like what's on our calendars, like where uh where's staff spending time? Yeah. I mean, if you just did an audit of of staff's time, where are you spending your time? And then again, the celebration is just what are the stories uh that we share? What are the stories that we we celebrate? And I think if you just start peeking in on those things, uh it's some oftentimes will give you a picture of like what actually is most important to us, not what do we say is most important, but what is actually most important to us. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I was just it reminds me of what you just said that I was in a conference here very close down in the Hartford area church. It's just doing great things. And they said if you're a church of 100 to 200, there's three things that you need to prioritize. Just three, only three. Yeah. Sunday morning, yeah, small groups, yeah, outreach into your community. Yeah. And that's what you do. Yeah. And and I I I appreciated the simplicity of that. Yeah. Um, and and to realize, you know, okay, no, we don't need to be doing men's ministry, women's prayer gathering, bold ministry, whatever it is. It's like those are the three things. Yeah. And um probably most of our churches are kind of in that um range. Size culture. Size culture. Yeah, you know, yeah, I love that. Um so, in your experience, how often, you know, we we talked about the
SPEAKER_00five to seven um years but how often do churches prioritize maintaining programs programs over making disciples how does a how does an audit kind of expose the problems of that i you know i'm yeah yeah i we kind of talked around that question but yeah yeah well one um that napkin uh sketch in a sense of like how are we answering these questions yeah uh that quickly exposes i i uh the when the great i say it this way oftentimes Doug when the great commission has become the great confusion uh to us if again if our leadership and this is such a thing if our leadership is on a different page I don't just mean are we friends in unity you know and other if we answer try to answer those questions what is it we do day in and day out why do we do it the way we do it when are we actually successful on mission how do we end up make disciples and make multiply disciples here where is it God's taking us if we don't answer those questions together like clearly together um immediately you know that we are um off mission we've got we've got so that taking that test in this if you will just that simple little napkin test goes uh where are we aligned yeah and then it can actually help us just see again let's celebrate that and then you know what we have over time we've gotten fuzzy here uh we've gotten fuzzy here so it can help um expose that side of things I think another I was thinking about a store uh a church that I was a part of and I and I just had I've been there about a year I was down here in South Minneapolis and um and the church was maybe 35 40 years old um in my first year there uh um we we were in you know some plateaued decline side of things a you know larger church so that's massed a little bit more um but the reality was we're still in uh uh decline and I I remember hearing a staff member say this you know the the what we used to ask around here is what are we gonna do with all these people then we build a new sanctuary um and then we started answering how are we asking how are we gonna keep all these people yeah yeah and all I mean it's I think sometimes it's it's those sort of things where um you when you start just listening yeah you go like you know what actually the question has shifted like the like that in particular gives a little sense of all right what you know what do we need to do um next next week or you know we always talk about Sundays coming uh you know side of things or what do we need to do for Easter what do we need for Christmas um which is important let's do it well yep but so often like if that's the primary question we're probably have moved towards uh the program centric yeah uh side of things versus um are we asking the questions of what do our people need if we're trying to raise up these kind of disciples what do they need most next yeah what's their next step and I love to ask it this way Doug uh one of my favorite questions is just uh and we're trying to build this in our our own church um is it a who's next versus what's next?
SPEAKER_01Yeah right right like when that when it comes you know it's it's staying people centric yeah versus um program centric um on that yeah and and I love just your you know it's celebrating the stories it's it it's the individuals' lives that are being changed and if a church and if a church can't find those stories celebrate those stories there's a problem there right yeah if you were to talk to a a pastor what are some of the first steps he needs to take with a leadership board to try to get things back on track you know you're the the church is on a treadmill right they're they're just they're just going through the motions you know on that treadmill of ministry um how does a pastor get get his board to see we need to get off the treadmill yeah we need to do things differently here yeah uh because it's not working yeah there's a you need to like what's the first thing my my my mind always goes into like what context am I in where am I at you know what's happening but but a couple couple things here I um Doug we often say that vision starts in the prayer room before it's clarified in the boardroom.
SPEAKER_00Yeah um and one of the things that we'll even do with a team on this is um encourage a uh this isn't a pragmatic moment this is gonna like this I'm I'm gonna give this some some very practical things but this is I think because it really is a we're not just talking about strategic steps right we are sort of talking like it's a spiritual yeah reality that we're talking about as well and so we'll often engage a team into a for a 30 to 45 day prayer journey yeah um we even have a few um uh uh um kind of questions that we encourage a church to be praying around you know in that um but there is something about vision is not us now pushing ourselves into the future mm-hmm trying harder uh vision a God inspired vision is God pulling us yeah he's inviting us to join him in what he's doing so one of the first places I would start is a cultivation of prayer we see this in Jesus' ministry every major move yeah uh of in Jesus in his ministry is preceded by some concentrated prayer yeah and would we call it that um the second um thing I would name that just you know where to start um I would take those questions these are these are the I'll say one more time here I think it's uh helpful um what do we do why do we do it the way we do it uh that's really around values um when are we successful that's really on disciple what kind of disciples we're raising up um uh and then uh how do we do it where's God taking us yeah if I was to to look at those with a team and just ask the question where are we clear? Yeah um where is there fog if there's been fog for a long time Doug I would say a first key step um is invite an what I would call a strategic outsider yeah to the table.
SPEAKER_01Yeah and and the reason uh I would say that is see if this rings true I got young adult kids yeah okay and they're dating now yeah and uh you're you experienced with your kids and they have um they're dating and now they go and meet um their their significant other's family and when they meet their significant other's family for the first time or second time or third time they become crystal clear of like hey there's some really cool things about your family and they're like bro there are some things that are a little bit weird right yeah um when you're in it yeah you're just part of the family system you don't see and you you just don't see it anymore right you just don't see it anymore uh and yet an outsider yeah can come in for minutes sometimes you know just a little bit of time and and quickly sees um not telling you what's wrong like actually hey this is a strength this is beautiful yeah um and also like hey this may be a blind spot yeah um that you just don't see because we're in it we're just you and I we're like we know this we I would say this about Clarity House uh we say this about our own church uh you know around that is like sometimes just someone stepping in with the leadership team and being able to ask some of those questions together actually helps surface to you know to the top yeah uh that uh hey where do we actually already have clarity that we can step off of yeah and where's there there where's their fog um that we may need to do some real drilling down on I think that is so key so helpful and and I I hope that some pastors here maybe that's maybe a a major takeaway for them you don't have to do this alone yeah um yeah having someone kind of from the outside as you said just helps so much um in in in doing uh in in in going through this kind of assessment um yeah can I say one thing there Doug real quick yeah on that yeah just to take the ease like I think as um as leaders that almost like you we hear that and we go no I'm supposed to have all the answers.
SPEAKER_00No like that's my job as the leader. Actually what we find is it's really hard to facilitate especially if we have been in a season that's been a year, two years, three years, four years, five years, 10 years of some fog, some mission drift um it's hard to facilitate that with your leadership team.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And also be the voice at the table.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So what the part of what the outsider does is a gift to the church to the leadership team is not bring the answers like now I'm coming with the answers. Actually what they do is their facilitation allows the pastor to have their full voice at the table rather than I'm also trying to facilitate this and you know uh respond to you know Elder Joe and you know Deacon you know Tom uh in a way that like we got to do ministry after this uh as well. So you're you're able to it really interact and you're able to hear things. So just partly to just name on that to you asking an outsider doesn't mean man you're saying my leadership is bad.
SPEAKER_01Yeah right yeah right and that person kind of help helps also helping navigate some of the hard decisions right and being being an additional voice right yes um because I want to talk about man pastors need to have thick skin on this sometimes because as you're doing this vision audit you're realizing we got to cut some things here. Yeah and that's not popular. Leading change is not always fun huh no it's not I I I just remember when we were about six seven years into trying to turn the ship around here and uh and I sat in a deacon's meeting um and they passed a paper around the deacon's meeting um the top five reasons why Doug Gee should not be the pastor of this church and and my first response was only five I've I've got a whole lot more you know but but we were trying to make a difference and um you know I I don't want to go on with this but yeah the executive director the guy who's in my what was in yeah you know for New England Bob Chapman came in and preached a sermon and he just totally supported me and what was going on and uh and here's this guy with gray hair who is able to just help some marvelously yeah um you know support what what what the path was. So let's talk about some of the difficult decisions here for a minute.
SPEAKER_00Yeah like leading change isn't isn't always easy right uh it's just not um yeah on that uh one of the first I think about a couple things I would say here a couple of things about leading change um one uh start with thank you yeah versus you should have yeah and what I mean by that is um and this is kind of our some of our own you know errors in younger years of leadership I'm sure you never did this but uh yeah younger me uh in a shirt was like hey we you know we we need to be making these changes and things and what the people here who've been there faithfully giving sacrificially you know bloodset sweat and tears maybe for 20 30 years what they heard was um you did it wrong and you should have done this yeah but if we start with uh thank you for um that sacrifice thank you for what you've done in fact you were doing the right things in that time right and we stand on the shoulders of that today um and and now today we need to do some of the things you guys did sometimes 10 years 20 years 30 years ago is you you prayed you looked around the community around you you looked at the needs of what were going on and you made decisions saying what's the right step for this season we're so thankful you did we need to do that now and just this again my own confession on that the posture shift from helping people hear yeah that what you did wasn't wrong but we didn't make change um I I think of this when you start leading change there is that you have to create a little bit of urgency right uh that the status quo is uh almost scarier if you will than uh this future unknown that we're talking about and uh I think about the because yeah we know what happens like God gave us stories around this right we just want to return back to Egypt if we can yep uh and so when you're starting to lead change on that um clear on purpose a little four P's this is very good this is good pastor alliteration uh right here um purpose meaning consistently reminding people why the transition is necessary if we continue in this current state what is vision is always a solution to a prior problem if you if we don't so sometimes we have to do some more problem casting before we do vision casting because otherwise the vision's dead on arrival like right why why go to the promised land if we can just stay in Egypt right right right uh so purpose clear clear giving them a picture of what that future could look like I would say we don't just need a vision statement um people aren't moved by statements they're moved by story right we have to paint a picture of it is the imagine if um that God's calling us into um paint keep painting that picture here's our first steps and sometimes Doug I'm um even a trick right now like I mean we're we're starting something new and we're we're piloting it um just quietly making a making a shift we're not making a big splash uh around it we're just piloting it and so just we have a plan and then I find that if you help people um what's the part you need them to play in it yeah uh because when you're a player on the field um right uh you're you're you're you're there's less complaining right than you know the people in the stands and so if we're just sidelining people that's how people feel they don't because they don't we don't fear change as much as we fear loss. Yeah so if we won't just say hey we're we're sidelining this and then they feel sidelines but say here's actually the part I need you to play in this season. If you'll give someone something to participate like how will how what's a part that they can play they're less likely not saying that they it's silver bullet right but you're less likely to complain because you actually know oh this is the part I can play you're not just putting me on the sidelines you're not just setting me back. So those four things purpose picture plan what part I have to keep those in my mind often as we're trying to lead change.
SPEAKER_01That's good. Yeah I you have I think I believe I saw it on your website there is um a a presource right for an assessment to do an assessment.
SPEAKER_00Yep um yeah there's a little clarity assessment it's about 10 questions great and I would even say uh to you you you can you can take the assessment I'll give you a little feedback my favorite thing to do with it is um you can even kind of print off the questions and things to you so take the assessment um but another thing you can do is I I love to give it to a team I was just gonna say yeah have them all answer the questions because again I want to go where do we stack hands like you kind of rate different things on a scale one to five on it. And I was the conversation most of the time is more important than the right answers. Yeah. It really is are we actually seeing on these kind of 10 areas are are we how close are we to four to five? And where are we like when I hear hey you know I think we're five and I think we're a one yeah and I hear multiples of that's like that's where I want to lean in hey tell me there's a little disparity between these two like help me understand more.
SPEAKER_01Shay and I have just enjoyed this conversation today um and and I think it's been helpful um not just for me but for so many churches listening in it mission drift it is it's just that right it happens natural it happens over time but the good news is it can it can be corrected. Totally and that's that's exciting and um you know and I want to believe with all my heart Shane for this that a new wind is blowing right now in the Northeast and I'm even starting to see uh some of our churches in venture northeast starting to shift yeah to be in healthy I love it great commission churches um it's really exciting to see so thank you thank you thank you thank you for this brother appreciated having you and uh yeah thanks for listening to everybody and until next time uh keep leading with courage keep your eyes fixed on the mission and remember uh the church is at its strongest when it's remained focused on what matters most the mission so again thanks for listening God bless everybody