Guest #1 - When the Choice is made for you

They say that life is what happens to you whilst you are busy making other plans and in this episode, our first guest podcast, Sally MacQueen joins Peter and DAS to discussion the impact of when retirement is more forced upon you rather something you planned.

The loss of purpose, the loss of identity, and moving through the grieving process are all covered with honesty and a certain degree of rawness.

Also we discuss the disappearance of a key social community and potential isolation when your primary purpose is removed unexpectedly.

"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans" is a famous quote often attributed to John Lennon in his 1980 song "Beautiful Boy (Darling Boy)". It highlights that life is unpredictable, unfolding in the present moment rather than according to future goals or schedules. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Walking into retirement, an unusual podcast about finding purpose, meaning, and balance after a busy working life with David Ailing Smith and Peter Taylor. Exploring the emotional, psychological, and practical realities of modern retirement through a series of reflective conversations undertaken whilst walking scenic routes across the UK.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

Hi Daz, how are you doing? I'm well, Peter. How are you today? I'm good. I'm very good because I'm excited because we have a special guest. We're going to introduce Sally in just a moment. But before we do that, Daz, um, I would like there's three points I want to quickly cover. Um you're like this because two of them you're you are correct, and one of them you're not wrong. All right. So this is the way I'm going to go with this. So when we had our when we had our walk across the Bourbon Hills, yes, you came out with a completely spurious, made-up, uh assumptive statement that most people die after retirement. And I said I was going to I'm just going to check that out. I have. And you were right. Um, currently on the last stats with in the UK, uh, 14% of people die before retirement and 86% die after the age of retirement. So well done. Retirement is a leading indicator of death, then. Is that what we're saying? Yes, there we go. Ticking that one. Right. The second one is, and I have to accept this, that a number of people have come back and said that they like eldorescence as a word. So well done. I'm not convinced yet on a book title, but well done for the word.

SPEAKER_03 1:53

Why are you surprised, Peter? Because it works in lots of different levels. I appreciate it wasn't your idea, and so we can squabble about that, but I think it's a thing, it's a process, it's not an event. But anyway, we shouldn't go there again.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

No, don't milk it. I'm I'm letting you know that you're right on that one. And the third and final one is, and this is really interesting. Um, I want to I've lost track of the number of people who said, I didn't realise you've retired. I haven't retired, all right. I may be on the edge of adorescence, um, but I have not retired. And I think perhaps going out there and promoting a walking into retirement podcast has confused some people. So uh I just wanted to I just wanted to set the record straight there.

SPEAKER_03 2:33

You know, denial is the first stage of recovery, Peter, don't you?

SPEAKER_02 2:38

Yeah, no, I still need to earn some pennies, so uh, you know, I'm not retired, I'm out there. So, anyway, enough of that, as I said. Well done, Das, for being right twice and not wrong once. Um, well done.

unknown 2:48

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

I now want to introduce Sally. So Sally McGueen um has worked with David's and myself. So, Sally, welcome to the Walking Into Retirement Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Thank you very much. I'm happy to be here. And I I just want to say um first congratulations to you guys for thinking of such an amazing uh topic for um for these discussions and for taking it outside because I love seeing the pictures of the English countryside. Um, it certainly makes me miss home very much.

SPEAKER_03 3:25

Uh well so tell us, Sally, so you have a bit of an accent, but I I happen to know you're you're a Brit, aren't you? I believe that's correct.

unknown 3:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

Yes, I am. I'm a Guilfordian.

SPEAKER_03 3:36

A Guilfordian. Okay, that's excellent. But where do you live currently, Sally?

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Um, I live just outside of Halifax, Nova Scotia, in Canada.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

Well, thank you so much for joining. Um, really appreciate you being with us and having another sensible voice to balance Peter. I mean, it just helps, Sally. It's very lonely, you know, doing this work with Peter.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

I hope I can be a bit sensible.

SPEAKER_03 4:05

I do appreciate that. And and and Peter, did you want to introduce the topic? I appreciate we don't take turns now like we did with Squid, but uh, would you like to introduce the topic or um Yeah, no, I will I will I'm happy to do that.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

So, yes, I mean, so you know, we've all we've all gone through um some you know some changes recently for various reasons, and um I thought it was really interesting. I kind of, you know, Sally, you and I have kept in contact uh since you uh departed the organization uh we both worked for. Um and I thought it was really fascinating that I you know in a kind of category because we want we want to have lots of um external guests to come on the podcast. So, you know, I said beforehand we're gonna have the walking podcast, which is gonna be live recorded with Daz and myself, and then there are gonna be studio-based ones, and this is the first studio one, so this is brilliant. But we're also looking for some key aspects to this whole elder essence retirement thing, and and the one that came up which kind of triggered me was I think you when you and I spoke, Sally, you kind of you kind of ref referred to uh you know you felt like you were being forced into retirement because of circumstances. Uh was that a fair comment?

SPEAKER_03 5:14

Yes, well, and I think so. Just so thank you, Sally, because I appreciate you know approaching a change of gear like this, everyone is different, but I think um initial emotions for uh for uh when the choice is made for you can be quite hard. So I really appreciate you um spending some time talking about it. And I I did want to stress you know to all our listeners that do appreciate that everyone's experience of uh stopping work is different. You know, for some it's early, for some it's late, for some it's positive, for some it's negative. And I think, as you said, Peter, we felt that to try and explore this subject more fully, whilst our experiences has have a relevancy, other people's experience will be their own, and we wanted to bring that to bear. And we, you know, we've worked with you, Sally. We you know, we know you're you're articulate and interesting and funny, and and you know, we we wanted to get your voice on this really when the choice is made for you. And so, you know, love to hear a little bit more about how have you been, how how you know, how how's it going for you since that decision was made?

SPEAKER_00 6:17

Um well it's it it's interesting because it it's a bit of an you know, an up and down journey. It's a bit sort of a sine wave, you know. We we're on a bit of a roller coaster. Um and uh I found myself um I'm not a particularly introspective person, I'm more of a doer, you know, I'm not a person who journals or likes to dig into things particularly because I just want to get on with it. But I through this process, I found myself sort of having these not out-of-body experience exactly, because I think that's more of a visual thing, but certainly felt at times like I had I could step away um and sort of examine, okay, what what's going on here? Why are you doing what you're doing? Or what is what is going on? Um, and it prompted me to actually look into the five stages of grieving. Um, I mean, I think most people have heard of it. Um, I had to Google the actual stages, but I mean, I've lost important people in my life, so I do I do know a little bit about grieving, but that's when somebody dies. Um, and I I guess in a way, I didn't quite expect that it would be so clear to me that it also happens when you have this sort of forced retirement.

SPEAKER_03 7:53

I I think it's a I think actually grief is a really good way to describe I think it's probably one of the sort of closest emotions we've got to this exercise, this what's what's going on here. Because I think grieving is about accept accepting loss, isn't it? And and and it's essential really. I think it's essential for us as human beings as uh something to be able to be able to move on. That transitions, you know, giving up some things, uh and as you say, the the Kubler Ross five stages of grief or David Kessler thing updated it with six later. It's it's so interesting that I think those different, and I'd love to go through them all with you, those different stages. I think one can recognise that one if anyone's lost a job uh unexpectedly. Um it's interesting as well, those five stages of grief or the six stages of grief, it's very much like the stages of project management, isn't it, Peter? You you've given lots of uh talks in your time about what did you is it the valley of despair that uh projects go through where everyone starts in a historic way. Uh and it there's there's parallels there with transformation, isn't there? Uh of an organization where when uh new systems are deployed and people just don't like them and they're angry about the loss of the old systems, they they they they're in denial about the fact they've got to change the way they're doing it, then very sad about perhaps they've lost the knowledge that they had before. There's bargaining about do we have to really give it up, and there's a dialogue about how do we, you know, how do we actually uh how do we relate to this new world, and then there's an acceptance and then the moving on, and and so often with the moving on, there's a new sense of purpose uh and there's a you know a there's a positive outcome, but it takes time, doesn't it? This whole process takes time. So it's such an interesting analogy, Sally. So do tell us more about it.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Okay, sure. Um, well, at first I thought, well, why, you know, why grief? Like why does it why does it resonate so much with me? I mean, in reality, nobody died, right? But then I thought about it and I realized, yes, somebody did die. Um, the other half of me died. My professional persona died. So I'm no longer, you know, that person in in in that capacity no longer exists. Yes, um, and for me, it was quite quite stark because I'm invested, I invested in my career. It it wasn't so much what I do, but who I am, um, which is uh probably another podcast. It's probably a very unhealthy codependency there.

SPEAKER_03 10:28

Um, we'll have you back, Sally. That's a good one. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Yeah. Um, and I don't have any children. And of course, children are a distraction, right? So so for people who have children or maybe other people in their lives that they have to care for, um, they're maybe not, they're not so tethered to their job. They have other personas, but for me, that would it was either, you know, me sort of at home doing my crafting thing and taking care of my husband. And then the other half of me was the job. And I spent more time at that job, and I was almost more invested in it um during my career than I was in my private life.

SPEAKER_04 11:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

So it really did feel like somebody died, and and there's also a loss of purpose, which I think is also listed on your um lovely website. Um, who am I now? Who am I supposed to be? Um and then also the loss of colleagues. I mean, you have a social circle at work, and it's it's rare, I think, to be able to transition those friendships out of that workspace and into the private space.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Yes. That that's a really good, that's a really good point. Yeah, I I hadn't thought about that, but you're right. I mean, yes, we I think even through our careers, we've moved on and you you do, you kind of move to the next group of people. You have that kind of and it can be you know highly engaging social interaction between a number of people, but when when the job itself is no longer the common denominator, it's very easy to to lose connection. No matter how you you may you know try to to make that carry on, it it's it's hard, and you tend to move on to the next next social community.

SPEAKER_03 12:23

And Sally, do you? I mean, thank you. That's so eloquent. You've described that so beautifully. Did you find yourself, if you if you yeah, don't answer this question if you don't want to, but did you find yourself going through this of the shock, anger, denial stages of oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:40

Oh I think we felt that.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

Yeah, I think um, and I'm still going through them, right? Because it be if you if you do a little reading on the subject, you know it's it it goes in cycles. Um, sometimes you'll skip over a step, other times you won't, but you go through it again and again and again until you start to leave parts of it behind. Um and so you know, the denial shock, definitely. Um, and I would even say, and it went through very fast in the first week. I mean, I ran through those uh probably in the first day, uh right from top to bottom.

SPEAKER_04 13:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

Um, and then and then as time goes by a little more slowly. Um, I mean, the denial and the shock are wearing off now, but they were definitely front and center, right? Of course, when I found out. Um, and I would say I was in denial when I think back. I was in denial before the loss happened because I basically ignored the signs. And they were there, and people were talking. There were murmurs, there were concerns, because this was all related to the company being um purchased by a private equity firm. And then people started talking about, you know, what normally happens when that type of uh sale occurs. And so it was already out there, but I chose to ignore it.

SPEAKER_03 14:13

Well, again, I think that's a very common response, isn't it, Sally, to you know, a change where there's a threat. It's very easy to don't think about the fact this might apply to you. And I'm sure you revisit this, you're you're you're you are revisiting that, aren't you, now? Um but you know, these what's quite interesting about this this sort of walking into retirement for you here, you know, this wasn't your choice, and there was nothing you could have done about this. And so you know, you find yourself in a position where you're I I think this is part of the healing process, Sally. This, you know, talking about it, you know, researching the the emotions you're feeling. I don't think this can be rushed. Um they do say with grief, you know, it in some respects it never ends. But I've actually we've got it's it's interesting. We've had a couple of people, haven't we, Peter, talking about their retirement saying it's taken them a year to get used to their change in uh circumstance? And so I've heard that written about grief as well. You know, it's it's it's that sort of time period where you go through you cycle through these stages and everyone's different, of course. And and are you able, Sally, to hold on to the positive side of this? You know, are you there yet? Can you think about what this allows for, what opportunity this gives you? Have you m have you allowed yourself to be excited about the possibility in the future, or is it too too soon?

SPEAKER_00 15:40

It's a little bit too soon. Um and the reason for that is because I'm still not the dust has not settled.

SPEAKER_03 15:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Right? So I can't I can't really see clearly right now, because it's you know, basically, you know, when a when when something crashes down and the dust flies up, well you you genuinely can't you can't see. Um, and I am taking some advice from um from people that I trust in my life, my family. Um you know, my mom lost her husband quite a few years ago, but she said to me, Don't make any sudden moves, just just let it settle. Because the things you might decide that you want to do in the first little while before you've sort of gone through all the stages, they might not be the same things that you want when you get to the end of this grieving process. So she said, be be very careful what you decide you're gonna do. Be very try to leave doors open, don't make any fast moves, just kind of sit with it if you can.

SPEAKER_03 16:58

Mums, moms, mums are wise, aren't they? Yes, they are very wise. University, that's such good advice, isn't it? And and and that sort of process of letting go of the old and looking towards the new, you know, in the going back to your grief uh metaphor, Sally, that's often characterized by feeling of helplessness, lack of energy, shame, guilt. You know, I don't know whether any of these resonate with you, but I mean it's a classic sort of inertia that can un can overwhelm actually as you're going through this sort of transition. But it does end, you know, it does end, and and I'm sure your mum's comments will really help you to reach out to people who will allow you to share your your your anger and your shock and your sadness, but also you know, you some of the positive things that can happen because you know, we you Pete Peter and I Peter was teasing me about my elder essence word earlier, but you know, we talked in our last podcast of retirement, it's a door, you know, it's a binary event. That's the way I'm looking at it. You step through Narnia-like into this brave work brave new world. And so, whilst it might be strange and shocking, you may not have wanted to walk through the door, you are there in this in this in this new landscape, and so at some point you'll be able to apply your energies and your enthusiasms to it in a way that could be really, really exciting.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Yes. Oh, absolutely. Um, and what what's interesting is in the first day when I said I ran through all the stages, I got to acceptance, went to my husband, and said, Hey, you know that cabin that we were thinking about building for you know to do like a BB thing? Yeah start looking, start looking for buildings, start costing it out. He's he's my builder, he's a he's an amazing, amazing project manager in his own right. Um, he is retired. Um, but I said, start, start looking. Like we've got a, you know, I'm getting some money and settlement. I can take that money, we can, you know, we can slam it into this thing. I want to get it up and running by June so we can, you know, make some money this year. I mean, uh, you know, it I was gung-ho, right? But then then you then you start to think things through a little bit more. And uh, you know, my brother, he's a he's a financial advisor, so I have a great team behind me.

SPEAKER_04 19:23

You do, don't you?

SPEAKER_00 19:25

You know, he said, you know those lump sums, he said you don't know what's gonna happen to you at tax time next year. So why don't you just sit with that and put it away because you don't know what's coming, you don't know. The dust is still flying. So just hang on to that stuff.

SPEAKER_03 19:48

You're you've got a great family, have you a builder, a fine, you have got a doctor in the family as well. Have you all like a travel agent? Because this sounds like a fantastic team you've got around you, Sally. It is. Well, my sister-in-law's a nurse, so you know we're good. You've and of course, you know, your your friends and your family will speak as to where they're coming from. So your your brother, your financial advisor brother was using words that financial advisors use, don't they? Like, be careful, put it away. You never know what's coming, which of course is good advice. But you know, your building husband is probably really excited about building you something fantastic that you can enjoy and other people enjoy. So you're gonna give me no shortage of mixed advice, I suspect, Sally.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Yes, no, absolutely. And it's you know, everybody, I guess the great thing is I've you know, I've everybody's got my my best interest at heart, so um, and you know, so that's that's been really great. But interestingly, I I was okay to tell my family, right? And but there was hesitancy in sharing this with other people, yes, and there was a feeling of shame about it, you know, and this has never happened to me in my career, yes. Um, and so uh it had just never happened to me. So I'm thinking, how will people react to this? Um, will people think, you know, I wasn't I wasn't performing? Will people think, you know, all these things? And there's so there was that element of shame. And it's completely wrong because it wasn't shameful, it was the company deciding to go in another direction. And yes, and and they disbanded uh what Peter, uh probably 75% of our department. There's hardly anybody left anymore.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

Yes, yeah, and for the record, I can definitely say as uh Sally's indirect manager that there was uh there there was no performance issues whatsoever. She was doing an amazing job. Can I circle back to I think I'm just I've been taking some great notes here, and I think I think one of the things I'm you know, Daz mention. A couple of people have reached out to us and they said, you know, it's taken about a year to get into the mindset of being retired. And both those, I believe, are you know in a planned retirement situation. So they knew they were going to retire. They retired and then they evolved during that 12-month period, roughly, and they felt they were mentally retired at that point. I think one of the things that it may may reflect, Sally, on your your uh you know, your 24-hour drive to actually starting building cabins and things like that and starting your your your uh uh kind of vacation business um uh is the fact that you suddenly you lose control you know as a result of this you have lost personal control of your life in some degree because you were planning, I'm I'm sure you were planning for a retirement at some point in the future. Yeah, exactly. But suddenly that decision has been taken away. And and and I think that is going to be hugely impactful for anybody that that has happened to.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

Oh, that completely. And you know, that kind of feeds into the anger part of the the equation because first and foremost, I was angry at myself because I ignored the signs. And and to your point, Daz, not that I could have done anything about it, but I still could have gotten my head in the right space, knowing that it was coming. You know, I mean, you know, people say, Oh, I saw the light at the end of the tunnel, but it was a train. I didn't even, I didn't even know I was in the tunnel. I didn't even see a light. I mean, it was just like boom. I sort of think about that. Um, if anybody uh listening is a peanuts fan, um, you know, the Charles Schultz comics, um, where Lucy's holding the ball and Charlie Brown runs up to kick it and she moves the ball and he goes flying, falls on his back, and you know, those little birds and stars are going around his head, and it happens to him all the time. But that's how I felt because it just was completely blindsided by it. But I was angry because I'm not ready, I haven't finished my work. Yeah, I have, you know, I was so invested in this, and it's just taken away, and there's no access and nothing. Um, and because I didn't make the decision on my own terms, it's like it steals your moment. I mean, when you're when you announce to people, hey, I'm gonna retire, people are excited for you, and you're excited to tell them and they say, congratulations. Well, nobody's saying congratulations to me, including myself.

SPEAKER_03 24:40

Yeah, that's uh that's such an interesting point, Sally. No, I hadn't thought of that actually. But of course, your moment is your moment, and you know, you can still choose to celebrate that moment when you're ready. But I take your point that it that that walking through the door moment is not a celebratory time, which I'm sure is the reason this is so hard for everybody that experiences this. That's such an interesting point. But yeah, but of course you will you know you will get you know, you at some point you will get to the point when someone who's planned their retirement will be at where you've come to terms with the fact you're retired, you're at peace with it, or you're excited about it, and you'll be public about it, but you've got this grieving to go through, haven't you? First, I think.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Yes, yep, and some very practical things that need to be done. Of course, you know. I mean, i i you know, you can't you can't go into that depression stage um and stay there, right?

SPEAKER_04 25:37

No.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

So I know I've skipped over the bargaining because that was pretty short. You know, I was like, oh, maybe they'll change their mind, maybe they'll offer me a contract to bridge, you know, maybe they'll realize that they let people go that know things that nobody else knows, and maybe they'll, you know, in fact, when Peter called me about doing this podcast, there was a little voice in my head saying, Maybe they've changed their minds. Maybe that's why Peter's calling me. Right. So that's the bargaining part of it. Yes, yes, um, definitely that, but I I've pretty much got rid of that. That's you know, that's not really a stage I'm I'm go, I'm visiting anymore. Um, but the depression part of it, I will say, um had a very strange manifestation for me. And I do want to mention it because it come again, it completely shocked me. Um, it actually for I actually frightened. I actually got frightened because I was in town with my husband, and you know, like a lot of married couples, we you know, we're pulling out of an intersection, he's looking one way, and he says to me, Are we okay the other way? And I said yes. And I and we weren't.

SPEAKER_04 26:48

Oh god.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Yeah, I had completely in that moment, and it kind of went on for the rest of the day, I completely disengaged, I became untethered, I lost focus. And after that, you know, I was apologizing and we were trying to go somewhere, which uh the place where I've been several times, and I'm the navigator in the family. I mean, I've always been, I can find my way, and I couldn't. I got lost. And I and I said, you know what? I just I just want you to take me home. Because I realized in that moment that I was losing it.

SPEAKER_03 27:28

Wow, very powerful story, Sally. I you you know, I think that's just that's an illustration, isn't it, of how discombobulating this is, how knocked off track you know, this is, has been for you and here's for other people. And I I suppose that the only encouraging thing to say here is that that feels completely understandable and normal, and and you know, I'm I'm sure you that passed for you, or if it comes back, it will pass again. But that's a really powerful description of how unsettling this can be uh for anyone in in that moment. Oh, I'm so sorry. That does sound frightening.

SPEAKER_00 28:03

It was, it was scary. I thought, holy smokes, what's happening here? Um, and I went home, and and one of the things I do want to say to people is through this process, be kind to yourself.

unknown 28:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

Um, because you are going through something, and it is, as you say, uh discombobulating, um, more than you think. And so um I did go home and pretty much binge watch escape to the country with you know, wrapped up in a blanket with massive cups of tea and toast. Um I did that for a couple of days. And then I said, well, all right, I've been kind to myself, I've given myself some space because I realized I needed it. Um, and now I'm gonna pick myself up and I'm gonna prioritize my top three things. And most of those were very practical. Like I need health insurance now for things like chiropractors and massage and different things that we, you know, dentist. Um, so I have to find that before the two weeks runs out that they gave us. Um, you know, I have to look at my investments and figure out am I going to apply for unemployment? Am I going to apply for this the uh government pension? What am I gonna do? So, you know, give yourself some space, but then know that you have to pick yourself up and you have to move on with some very practical things because those things don't wait. You know, you've got to get on them.

SPEAKER_03 29:39

Good good advice. And I'm loving your um your your self-care regime. You can take the girl out of the UK, but you can't take UK out of the girl, can you? A cup of tea and escape to the country with a with a snugly. Yeah. I have I have um I have women in my life that do similar sort of things.

unknown 30:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:01

Sally, you've been you've been you've been fabulous on this podcast. Thank you so much for being so open with us because this is not an easy phase, but I think you spoke really powerfully, and I I know anyone who listens who will be going through us, you know, will have will have will be comforted, I think, by some of the things you said and will recognize some things you said. It's been uh it's been great. I think we should get you back, Sally, to talk about actually we're gonna do identity in a couple of weeks' time, aren't we, Peter?

SPEAKER_02 30:26

We have we are yes. I was I was gonna make I was gonna make that comment. Um uh that you know identity was something you didn't mention. Um, yeah, loss of control, loss of purpose, but also identity. And yes, we are gonna have uh another lady join us to talk about uh identity, so it'd be interesting to reflect back on that.

SPEAKER_03 30:43

Yeah, yes, well, yeah, but Sally, good good luck. I I I mean, are you definitely walking to retirement, or is there a possibility that you will go into other work uh in the future, do you think?

SPEAKER_00 30:55

Well, that's one of the things that I've been tossing around. I mean, as you say, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't ready to retire at that moment, but and I did figure that I would have at least another year, year and a half where I was. Um so I do, you know, I still I've still got some kick in me yet, but I I one of the things that I had said was, you know, more my mom said was don't close any doors. So as part of the settlement, the company did give us um access for three months to uh resume writing, you know, uh career coaching, job search. Um so I said, you know what, my resume is not up to date. It's not, you know, it's not current, but it's also, you know, not sort of a modern-looking resume. So I decided to call them. I decided to take them up on it. I thought, you know what? If something really juicy just pops out of the woodwork and I think, ooh, I really want to do that, then I need to be prepared. It doesn't mean that I'm, you know, actively seeking jobs out. I just want to be ready in case something comes up. And I think that's where I'm at right now. I know that I don't want to go into anything super stressful. Um, but I still, if something pops out that really interests me, then I probably will see what I can do about applying for it.

SPEAKER_03 32:25

Well, that's fabulous. That's fabulous. And and um what what will your mom think about you coming on a podcast, Sally?

SPEAKER_00 32:33

I don't know, but I'm going to visit her next week. So um if you guys, you know, get this uploaded, but when I'm there, then I will I'll do be the tech uh person and I'll have her give it a listen.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

Oh, excellent. Well, so what's Sally? What's her name? Pam. All right, hello Ann. I hope you've been listening to this and enjoying it. And we appreciate um you allowing us to have Sally on the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 32:58

Yeah, and you should be very proud because I think you've been very eloquent and I think you're gonna help a lot of people with your words, Sally. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

Oh, you're quite welcome. It's been a pleasure, guys, as always.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

All right, perfect. Well, thank you. That's Sally McQueen talking about the situation around you know forced retirement and the impact you can have. Um, I think it's a fabulous uh episode there, Daz.

SPEAKER_03 33:22

Yeah, I agreed. I think um, yes, I I I think this this dimension of looking at retirement from the different perspectives of how it affects different people with different circumstances has got legs, Peter. And I you know, I'm looking forward to uh follow-on episodes exploring some of these other scenarios and having other guests on to talk about that as well.

SPEAKER_02 33:42

Yeah, so if you'd like to be a guest, if you have a point of view around this, then reach out to us through the website walkinginteretirement.com. Um, and we'd love to connect with you and see if uh you see if you've got something that uh we would love to bring onto the podcast and talk to you about. So, but in the meantime, I think that's a wrap for now. So, once again, thank you, Sally. Really, really appreciate your openness and your time.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 34:07

Bye then.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

You have been listening to Walking Into Retirement, an unusual podcast about finding purpose, meaning, and balance after a busy working life with David Ailing Smith and Peter Taylor. Find out more at www.walking into retirement.com and why not share your own retirement stories with the host.