#4 Hidden Challenges in retirement after a full-on career - The Cotswolds Way, Broadway

Exploring why stopping can be more difficult than expected when on the cusp of retirement.

With a backdrop of the wonderful Cotswold landscape and Broadway, and with metaphors galore, Peter and DAS discuss what makes 'stopping' challenging and what is 'lost' when it comes to crossing that retirement bridge.

But also, what is to be gained as well when on the other side.

All this with a bonus of some really cute lambs.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:19

Walking into retirement on our usual podcast about finding purpose, meaning, and balance after a busy working life with David Ailing Smith and Peter Taylor. Exploring the emotional, psychological and practical realities of modern retirement through a series of reflective conversations undertaken whilst walking scenic routes across the UK.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

Right, well, here we are on walk number three, Dad. So this is your walk, so you should uh introduce it, I think, to uh to our listeners.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Well, we're just on the outskirts of Broadway, which is a quintessentially quaint Cotswold town, it's hard to say. Beautiful, long, broad high streets with uh golden yellow houses, old pubs, old churches, and we're sitting looking at the lambs gambling, which they're probably not licensed to do, but you know what I mean. It's that time of year, isn't it? It is. Well, yes, it's very straight.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

So, yes, this is about as broad uh forgotten what it's called now. Broadway. Broadway, yes, broad stone, Broadway, it's about as Cotswold as you can get, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:18

I think so. Um I've met off with lots of famous people around here. I know you were you were hoping to see Amanda Holden that uh frequents the Lycon Arms, but you're not not too far.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

In a little truck over there, yeah. Oh well, actually, yeah, we're we're in a field of sheep. There are lambs everywhere. Um, so this is this is very country fine, thank you. It's lovely.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Well, we're not far from the Beckhams here, we're not far from Clarkson's Farm. Um who else? Kate Moss lives quite close. Yeah, Johnny Depp lights come in occasionally as well. Yeah, I heard that. And the sun is shining. It's a beautiful day, isn't it? Beautiful day. And actually, Broadway is um it's a fun village. Do you remember the do you remember Boatie McBoat face many years ago? I love Boatie McBoat face. You can look it up. I'm I've written a blog about Boatie McBoat Face. Oh you'll like this then because I so following on from that, the the inhabitants of Broadway decided they wanted to name their recycling vehicles.

unknown 2:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

So game a game in Broadway is to spot um so trash a lot can be seen. The vehicle or uh uh turbinator is is I can see driving around the streets.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Excellent, excellent. I'll and I'll I'll put some in the notes, I'll explain to people who doesn't who don't let a story of boat in puttboys, but it utterly appealed to me about the the when you let people have power, they can't be some astonishing thing. So, yeah, excellent.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

So, so the walk today, Peter. I thought you know, we've had some really interesting conversations so far. Um, I thought the last conversation with Sally, where she talked about the fact the retirement was forced on her, was very she was very eloquent and uh I thought was very moving and very good talk. So we're sort of one wandering through all the various scenarios at the moment, aren't we?

SPEAKER_02 3:00

We are, we are. Yeah, I just want to echo that. I think Sally was incredibly honest at a quite a difficult time in her life at the moment that she's coming to terms with, and we really did appreciate her as a guest.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Yes, yes, and so I think you know we've got a we've got a speaker coming up next week and looking forward to talking about identity, which Sally touched upon in her in her uh contribution to the podcast. Um, we've got someone booked to talk about a slow retirement, a sort of a slow burn. Yes, it's kind of a long tail um career window towards a point of retirement. Yes. Looking for someone to talk about, you know, really looking forward to retirement, either just as they've retired or before they retire. And I actually have reached out to a celebrity, as you know, Peter, so we're waiting to hear on that one.

SPEAKER_02 3:40

Three, you know, three podcasts in a year reaching out to celebrities to come on to help boost our ratings, and why not? Why not?

SPEAKER_01 3:46

So I think there's lots of different scenarios in which people go through the portal. I know you hope that and enter the world of adorescence. But I think today I wanted to chat a little bit more from uh the first wolf where we talked about retirement, it has got so many possibilities for people, but it also harbours some challenges, I think some psychological challenges, particularly following successful careers, yeah. Where you know that striving for success, achieving goals, you know, customer success, productivity. I think they're all things that people who have had busy working lives would recognise. But I think the things that make one successful during a working life don't necessarily prepare you for adolescence, and you know, I think sometimes there are new skills to learn, and I think there's some insecurities associated with you know not being good at stuff anymore. Um so I think as adults we tend to become adapted, don't we, to the behaviours that have worked for us throughout our life, and I think that's why for so many people retirement can be quite challenging because you're thrust into a world that actually you're not very well prepared for. And I recognise everyone's different. We've got to say that everyone's everyone's journey into retirement is different, and I think people deal with it in different ways, which is why I think the variety of topics we want to discuss. Hopefully, there's something there for everybody.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

I mean, there are there are lots of topics I think we talked about. We'd you know, we'd love to talk to someone who's you know had to have a career break, or whether that's you know, as a as a mother, um, you know, disconnecting from work or to bring up a family, yeah. Um, you know, that impacts the kind of future state of retirement, uh, for example. Um, you know, and you know, I think we also have to recognise that some people it's it's a matter of health that that that guides them, if you like, uh, into retirement. So, any kind of topic like that I think would be really interesting to talk to someone. I think having if you listen to the previous podcast with Sally, you'll realize the value of that very personal voice.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Yeah, absolutely. And I thought one of the most powerful things Sally said was she said that her retirement had been stolen from her and retirement as in that binary event. And actually, I think with ill health that happens for people as well. And when you think I, you know, I'm not saying I choreographed my retirement, but I had the I had the opportunity to to slow down, I had the opportunity to say goodbye to people, had the opportunity to, if you like, in many ways go through that process on my terms, or at least in negotiation with uh the people I worked with, and that was important for me. Stop, sorry, I'm gonna stop. Look to your left. My goodness. Just look to your left. I think we need a picture here. We've got two little lambs trying to join the podcast. They are very sweet. One's black, which obviously is you, Peter, and the other one is white. Well, I don't know. That's probably me, isn't it? But they are rather sweet. They are don't run away, little lambs. Oh, don't run away.

SPEAKER_02 6:29

Okay, oh please. There we go. They've gone, they've gone. I didn't quite get them.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

So we um we're gonna go we're gonna get going on our walk, and I just want to talk through a few of these sort of challenges, which are the flip side to the opportunity coin that we talked about before. That's okay with you, Peter.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

Yeah, that's that's what I go to, and thank you for this immersion in in nature at this point in time. They were cute, weren't they?

SPEAKER_01 6:54

They were very cute.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

Alright, okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

So Peter, that was uh that was quite the hill, wasn't it? Yeah, got a bit of a knock on it. Not quite as steep as the Morgan one, but as well, I feel we're as hot. Well, it went on longer, didn't it? And actually, I got a very I felt a very good symbolic photograph of you still at work, labouring up the hill with your backpack on your back. And I uh I felt that was a bit of a metaphor to be honest, for um.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

Well, yes, I got a nice picture of you uh kind of emulating Morgan Wise dancing and skipping up the hill with no rucksack. I'm carrying the the heavy lade in low case.

SPEAKER_03 7:28

You're carrying the load still, aren't you?

SPEAKER_02 7:29

I am, yeah, I am. Whereas you're just carefully and just uh skipping happy. Is that is that the way you're looking at retirement, Peter? Is that's the way I'm comparing us in retirement. I see. Yeah, I'm not retired. How many times do I have to say this?

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Oh, true. Well, we are near we're near the Broadway tower now, and I think we'll perhaps we'll stop at the Broadway Tower because I've got some fun facts for you, and I know you like your fun facts. Oh, great, fun facts. We love them. No, no, they're good, they're interesting. But we should perhaps continue because we were we were talking about habits that were helpful during working life that might be challenging as we get older into our adolescence phase. Yes, we were. And I'd like to offer you a couple and see what you think about them. Oh, go, offer away. So, what about knowledge really? So, you know, during your working life, you you acquire knowledge and and when you don't require that knowledge anymore, I think it's quite a wrench for lots of people because that is a way in which they define themselves, the way they felt they were achieving, they perhaps could compare themselves with other people in a way that they felt good about, and actually that knowledge, often for people who stop working, is irrelevant, completely irrelevant. Um, and I think that's a bit of a shock for some people, actually.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

Alright, you know, you're you're right, and you're wrong. I'm gonna go with that one. Very good. I think yeah, you're right. I mean, yeah, the knowledge we build up through a working life is probably uh as useful as understanding Pythagoras' theorem that we learnt at school, which I never ever applied in life. I don't think, anyway, you may have done. You're more technical and scientific than me. But my point remains. Normal people don't understand what I'm saying here. Um but I do think that um what you can retain and is reusable is wisdom that you've gained. Yes. Like how to deal with people. Yes. I know you have we won't go into details, but you have a close-to-home project you're trying to help with, and uh you're having to be very careful in how you offer that wisdom. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

It's looking really uncomfortable now.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

I'm feeling good about this.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

No, wisdom, I think, is the right phrase. I think when I was talking about knowledge, I suppose I was thinking about work-related, sort of process-driven knowledge associated with the system. Oh, I see. Yeah, well, you know, yes, I get that's what you're doing. Or you know, generate renewals, you know, that sort of thing. That it feels like that process knowledge isn't useful anymore. And I and I think that sort of feeling of can I say incompetence, the fact that actually you know you stop working in and I grant you've got the wisdom, and that's the sort of the positive side of the elder essence, I think. But you actually, I think one can one can tend towards feelings, feelings of ignorance and and and lack of worth. I think that's where that comes from. The fact that your your knowledge and your your experience is actually irrelevant uh for a lot of the things you do.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

Well, that's true. I mean we can you know we have to accept that I didn't you know I didn't get where I am today by knowing anything. So I think no, I don't think this is the hard. You know we're live, don't you? I know we are live, but I have I have the edit control. Um but and I think that really reflects, I think, where I'm going with this non-retirement that I'm currently in, this progression to adolescence, is it's you know, I have knowledge in a non-work space that I can see extending into Aldorescence.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

You have more than one club in your bag to use the horrible metaphor. Okay, all right, so that was the first one, very good. Well, no, but I actually I just to finish that off, I think there's something about I'm gonna give you a quote here. You you're you might you may not like this.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

I think he's been he's been rehearsing rehearsing and re practicing again.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

I think one of the facets of elder essence or getting older if you like, not in work, is to try and continue to learn. And I think to learn, I think you've got to access your ignorance and not your competency. Okay. Okay, I've lost you now.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

No, you haven't lost me. I know that was quite deep. You know, I'm at the top of a hill, slightly out of breath. Breath the red mist has gone now, hasn't it? And and and listeners, I just like to share that. Um I sat down on the log um to recover and I sent Daz off to do one simple thing. What was that, Daz?

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Uh, you wanted a glass of water, still water. Sort of water, still water water. And what have I got in front of me? You you've got Cotswold sparkling water, which I thought was much more appropriate, seeing as we're near a Cotswold spring. No, you're right. I think it's a lot of things. It doesn't come out.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

You know, it doesn't come out the spring like that. I'm sorry. Anyway, but um knowledge, is that I think you make a good point. And it's it's I think that's one of the because you know during our work in life, we we we have learnt to unlearn. We know we know that's right. An important part of the last decade or so of uh you know perceived general wisdom is this process of unlearning, but to unlearn in your own personal life is transformation.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

You know, we know all those transformations, these sort of technical transformations we've helped people with, or we've been through ourselves. It is about unlearning, isn't it? And I think this is what we're embarking upon. We're we're in a transformation into elder essence, and it means stopping you accessing knowledge that's previously been useful. And I think that's destabilizing for lots of people. Okay, okay. Okay, so that's one. Next one I'm gonna say is busyness, being busy, focused on getting things done, you know, characterized as the sort of the yin and yang of work, I think, in the sense that a lot of people get very tired and frustrated and stressed about how hard they work, but I think a lot of people really enjoy their work and enjoy being busy, enjoy having that sense of focus, um, enjoy you know having targets, having um significant sort of transactions that they can measure the outcomes. And I think when you stop working, the absence of that scenario I think is a bit destabilizing for some people.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Um yeah, I mean I think I've mentioned before, you know, I get very unproductive when I'm not busy.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Yeah. Um we hear the phrase, don't you, about some some people in retirement sometimes talk about they you know they keep how you doing while I'm keeping myself busy. You know, it feels like it's a phrase that describes the fact that you're doing doing stuff. Where actually I suspect, you know, real contentment and happiness comes from learning how not to do stuff and perhaps live in the moment, perhaps enjoy the simpler things, perhaps give stuff away. I'm not sure. There's something here to talk about at length. But I think being busy is both positive and negative when you're at work, and not being busy, I think, is both positive and negative in adorescence.

SPEAKER_02 13:58

Yeah, I find lack of business is is stressful, more stressful. I get I get de-stressed by being busy and active doing things.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

So you're gonna keep yourself busy, are you when it comes fateful day?

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Ticking along, you know, ticking along. Oh, I'm sure, yeah. I'm sure you know.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Alright, last one for this particular break is all the breeze has got up as well. Yeah, well, hopefully we can still hear each other. Um, sort of I'm gonna say importance, so I don't want to sound pompous here, but I think in work one has sort of a position, has a value associated with what you do, and whether you're you're in a leadership position or whether you're in a key worker position, or whether you're doing a role that's essential to the community in which you you live, importance is a thing that people I think get uh pleasure from, they get a sense of identity from. And I think I mean the the the dark side of importance obviously can prey on vanity and ego, but I think stepping away from having importance, if I can you know use it in inverted commas, I think is hard. You see this as sports people, don't you? When people are you know at the top of the game and they they often leave it too long to step away from what they're doing and they start to become you know less good at what they do, and it feels like that's a shame. Um and I but for business people I I think it's similar actually as well that the world moves on and at some point it becomes right to step away, just in terms of your own.

SPEAKER_02 15:22

Um we see a lot of that in sport, don't we? You know, where people you know they bow out at the top, which you think is the right thing to do, and then they can't. They can't they can't leave it, yeah. They have to come back, they have to test themselves and they have to prove themselves again, and yet they've made the money, they've been successful, they don't need to do it. Um, but yes, I get that importance, yes, in your kind of your value, your purpose. I think Sally mentioned about purpose.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Yeah, and I think we're gonna talk about identity um next week. We are, um, and I think that feeds into it as well. But there is that phrase, isn't it, that I think you know one can feel. I mean, I think is this true? I was gonna say that you know, good organizations, good managers, good leaders make you feel indispensable. You know, it's part of it's part of the magic, part of the charm, part of belonging, part of collective endeavour. You feel that you're a very important part of a bigger whole. I think that's a part of good teamwork. But of course, we know that no one is indispensable, and you know, how quickly the world moves on when you're not there. Bucket of water, the bucket of water analogy, which I now understand. We had to go back to a podcast one for that, don't we? Yeah, one or two, I can't remember now. The Mormon Hills, I mentioned the Mormon Hills. Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, so there we go. But um it's okay to feel important still, I think.

SPEAKER_02 16:35

Yeah, all right, good points. Very good point.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

All right, so should we?

SPEAKER_02 16:38

So the next one is good. Well, now I'm gonna finish my sparkly water and then I'm gonna burp my way all the way up to the top of the space. Broadway Broadway Tower. By which time, hopefully, the it'll be at my system and we can have another interview. Yeah, and I'll tell you all about it. Okay, great. Oh, okay, I'm I'm out of breath again. Um, we're at the top of the hill. Um well it's not just a hill, Peter, is it? Well, all right, alright. But there's there's this bizarre tower. I know you know all about this. Right, so you're at the top of the hill, an amazing view across the countryside, and someone for some reason, probably some rich person in the 19th century, I guess. Earlier, yep. Earlier, okay, fine. Has built this attractive but ludicrous.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

It's an iconic piece of architecture in the landscape. Well, it's apart from having too much money, it's a it's a folly, and I think that describes it quite well. Brainchild of Capability Brown. Oh, okay. So we're talking, you know, 1790s, something like that. Built by oh, I was one century out. Yes, I think the Lord Lord Coventry for his missus, I think.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

Oh, so Lady Coventry.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Yeah, Lady Coventry. I don't know much.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

Is this the one that took her clothes off? Well, that's God's Nel Gwynn. Now it's Godiver. Lady Godiva.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

No, I don't think I don't think I think we're a different era. Okay. But um, yeah, so it's it's now an iconic sort of picture view of the Cot Switch. You can see 13 counties from here. We're looking out now. I can see Birmingham in the distance, Wales, the Black Mountains. It is it's a beautifully clear day, and it's it's absolutely gorgeous. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

Factory time. Have you got some? Or that's it. That's mostly more.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Um it's the second highest point on the Cotswolds. Okay, what's high as well? Oh damn, didn't my research didn't extend to that. That's not the Cotswolds. No, that's not the Cotswold, that's my ignorance there. Holiday destination of William Morris. So okay, yeah, we've got some cushions there. Broad Broadway. Broadway was a bit of a centre of artistic um carrying on over the last hundred years or so. And William Morris arts and craft movement bit before that. He loved it here, so he came up and um that's a bike going past. That's a cyclist. He came up and uh did some of his stuff up here. So yeah, no, it's a it's a pretty spot, isn't it? Oh, okay, it's fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

Yeah, well, thank you. It's a it's a spectacular. Are we going in the tower or are we just enjoying the view?

SPEAKER_01 18:56

We're just gonna walk past. Gonna walk past, gonna move on.

SPEAKER_02 18:58

Well, that's just the thing, it's a folly because the view's amazing for me. I can't imagine the view any better from well, I don't know how high that is. How high is that, does? 300 metres. Oh, you knew it, he knew the answer. Yeah, I mean you I I may have to check that one because you know you know your your renowns have come out of these spoonless.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

Yeah, well, I've learned in my long and checked career that if you say things with enough confidence and enough of the truth, you get away with it for most of the time. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 19:24

I'm looking at that now that they are not gargoyles, are they? The ones that spew out the water. Um they're grotesque, they're grotesque, but not gargoyles. The gargoyles are just to scare away evil things. Yes, very good.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

So should we continue then to talk more about the under the dark underbelly of elder essence? Oh, okay, great.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

Whoa! Right, we've we've left the tower and um it's just there on the left. It still looks magnificent for a folly. It looks it's really quite an impressive folly, actually. It's uh three towers with and uh uh we're looking down on it's an important folly if that's not a non-secretar. Well, it an important poly. Okay, but we're looking down on on on Broadway, um, which looks very picturesque. But I you know I want to reflect because you've been teasing me, you've been taking photos of me walking up the hill, you were putting on heavy load because I'm still working and have all the life problems, and you know, I'm gonna reflect back to whilst that photo of you I took of you skipping gaily up the hill, yes, um, you know, you you did go through a very angsty year or so prior to any recognition of anybody being able to use the R word in your presence. So, you know, I don't think you had a you know it wasn't an easy path, even though you you're as much in control of your retirement or adolescence commencement than anybody, but you still, you know, you still I think you still found it difficult to give up or or stop on that.

SPEAKER_03 20:49

Yeah, yeah, I think that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

I I wouldn't I don't like the word angsty. I think I was being thoughtful with a frown on my face. Is that what angsty means?

SPEAKER_02 20:57

I don't know, I use angsty because I'm accused of being angsty all the time.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Yeah. Well, I think it was it was I was I I did think about it a lot and I probably overthought it, but I well we're we've got a podcast out of it, so I don't I think there's a lot of things to explore before, during, and after entering retirement. So well I was.

SPEAKER_02 21:16

You considered you you you have a very considered approach to life. Uh okay. Well, it feels that way, again, compared to my, you know. Says the project manager. What? Yeah, whilst I'm a project manager, you know, my life has been less of a disciplined project and more of a chaotic.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

You are you are more mercuri than I am. Mercurial.

unknown 21:35

I like that.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Yeah, that's a nice. Wow, that's sorted then. Great podcast. Anyway, can we stop doing this um self-analysis, please? Okay. Get on to get on to why is it so difficult to stop? Well, I think we've talked about a few of the elements which I think are double-sided when you when you do stop work. And another one I want to talk about is I suppose it's connected with the previous topic, but sort of strength. And invulnerability, I suppose. It's the thing at work, particularly in leadership positions, where you show up for people as a leader. And by leadership, I mean that in the gener the broadest sense of the word. So, you know, as a leader within an organization, within a team, within a family, within a job, you know, just showing the characteristics that are outward facing in however you want to define leadership. And I think for a lot of people it requires sort of putting on a bit of an armour. I think people want a leader to be optimistic, I think. They want people they look up to to have answers or at least to be confident in the direction of travel. And of course, in life it isn't always clear where you're heading, and at business that's also true, but you can't you can't have a leader that's indecisive, I don't think. And so you've got this armour perhaps that you wear at work that when you stop work, you I think it's it's just not helpful anymore. And so I think there's a vulnerability associated with losing that jacket, you know, with losing that armour. Yeah, I can recognise, and I think people may not be able to relate to that, but I think for me it's something that I've recognised, and I mean, as in terms of the roles I've had, I've hopefully I've always been authentic, and I think it it is that journey to authenticity as you get older, you know, you can't hide, you can't pretend. And I think for some people who have perhaps pretended in their working lives to be something they're not, I think it's a big transition. Now, I you know, I I don't know whether that that relates to me or not, but I think that's a problem for people when they discover who they are when they stop working.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

And is there an aspect to that then? Because you know, I I reflect on that you know, in your working life, for vast majority of people, I mean I know there are loan traders, business people, or whatever, but you're in a community, so you know that it's suddenly retirement, unless you're you know, unless you're very close to someone who are is also on the cusp of retirement, elder essence, you know, all of that, it's a it's a solo activity.

SPEAKER_03 24:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

That you know, typically, you know, perhaps some of your family's gone through, perhaps they haven't. I think it's you know, again, we talked about the generational difference of what retirement meant uh in the past compared to what it means now, but it it feels like it's uh it's it's quite an isolated transformation.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

I think so. Sally talked about loss of community, didn't she? It's one of the things that was foisted on her with an involuntary leaving of work, and I think that's right, community that was on this actually community. It's about it's an important part of who we are, I think, at work, the people we spend time with, whether we sort of like them or not, it's part of the way we we spend our day. And you have a community when you leave work, but it's a different community, and um and I think sometimes people are impoverished by that because they lose friends or they lose touch with people who you know they've spent every day with for several years. So I think that's a big thing, and just finishing off that that leadership comment, I think it's something about I think you become more vulnerable when you're retired, and I think that's a good thing because I think the sort of that search for vulnerability, authenticity is perhaps one of the biggest goals of eldorescence, you know, becoming yourself, knowing who you are, being true to your values in a way that I think everyone strive to do that at work, but I think it's hard sometimes. So I think that's the that's the upside of this. You have an opportunity when you stop working to become who you're meant to be, whatever that means.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

Yeah, there's there's got to be, you know, I I think I've talked before about you know my dad retired and then went back to work because he just had a vacuum, he had nothing prepared. And I think you know, if we if we look back on your angster year, that wasn't an angster year, I can't resist. But you know, you effectively you were re-engineer it. I mean before that, even you were starting to re-engineer what your future life would look like, yeah. You know, with the move that you made, the community that you're now in, you know, small village community, yeah, your uh you know, your your community responsibilities that you have. Yeah. Um, you know, a lot of that was was, I'm sure was was uh you know fully intended and planned.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Well, uh some of it was, but some of it was about actually letting the universe in a little bit. I mean that sounds a bit woo-woo, but one of one of my perhaps my last point is about control and how we talked about it, I think, on the first podcast that you know at work one has an element of control over what you do, and it's bounded by your roles, responsibilities, your job, your routine, your deliverables, the things you're trained to do. But you sort of have control over what you're doing on a day-to-day basis, and whilst you do when you stop working, it's different because you have to make your own wind. And I think letting the universe in and having new experiences and being open to trying new things, having the courage perhaps to continue to learn and also not try and preordain what happens next, I think is a delightful side of retirement, but it's also a bit scary for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

Yeah, it is. A lot of that is, you know, I don't know. I mean, you know, I could get a phone call in the next five minutes, or I could not hear him for anything for a month, you just never know. And and that's kind of fun, it's exciting, but to rely on it is is you know is is a big challenge.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

It's a new normal, isn't it? It's a that will be a big transition for you. Yeah, uh I don't think you'll get a call in the next five minutes, Peter, because I don't think the cell signal is very good up here.

SPEAKER_02 27:23

Is that not a oh I see the folly doesn't have a no?

SPEAKER_01 27:26

I don't think it's got a radio master or a oh okay. But it is an attractive well folks, you heard it here. That's the downside to the countryside. But we are just now to resume, and this bit of the we're walking back downhill to Broadway now, actually on the Cotswold Way, which is which is uh one of the long distance paths in the UK, it's over 100 miles long from Chippincandon in the north to Bath in the south, and it's a very beautiful, it's a very beautiful bit of England if anyone's interested in coming over and walking it with you.

SPEAKER_02 27:53

The bit I picked up was downhill, quite like that.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

Downhill. Um coffee shop pub.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

And there are a lot of pubs down there, aren't there? There are a lot of pubs. Um but I'm gonna give you a chance because I you know I tease you when you come out with these these instant facts, but you you counted the tower height by saying you were right because 300 metres is height above sea level, I think.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

The tower itself is not that tall. The tower itself is probably 30 metres tall, but no, 300 metres above sea level, second highest point of the Cots Worlds. Don't know what the first highest point is.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

Okay, fair enough then. So the number that you spouted was right in one. Some element of rightness to it. Excellent. It's like a clock, it's right. It's good enough for us, it's not as right twice as not a deeply research podcast or scientific journal by any means.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Oh, should we trap down the hill?

SPEAKER_02 28:35

Hopefully, the load is lighter now, Peter. Well, you haven't taken any load off me, but you know, there we go. Okay, well, I'm we're sitting on the bench, we're looking down at uh Broadway. Um it looks achievable now.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Um we're we're right at the end of a very lovely walk, aren't we, Peter?

SPEAKER_02 28:57

We're right at the end of a walk that was slightly longer than it needed to be, thanks to Navigator Daz, who took us on an unnecessary half-mile deviation.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

Well, you that's correct. I thought that's correct. I followed you, I trusted you. And we had I but I I would take issue with the unnecessary word. I feel that we saw the Broadway tower from the other way, which was delightful, wasn't it? Our conversation was was fulsome and enjoyable. I felt we had an extra half hour of each other's company.

SPEAKER_02 29:27

Well, that's true. It was your lying about the fact there were two towers on this hill.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Yeah, you spotted that one quite quickly, didn't you? Very similar, yeah. But as a sort of a metaphor for aging, I you know, I I made a mistake. Yes, I owned it. Yes, we spotted it early enough to enhance our journey to spot it.

SPEAKER_02 29:46

No, no, it was fine, and you're you've offered to buy me a pint and a pub that is visible from here, I'd imagine. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, it's been good, Peter. Thank you. It's been an astonishingly gorgeous walk. So, yeah, great choice, great day, great weather. And will you look forward to the we possibly do the Welsh Mountains next? Yeah, possibly. You're gonna show me the details, aren't you? Penny van. Apart from the landscape here, we we we have seen uh incredible looking horses, handsome horses, we've seen sheep and lambs. I've got a lovely picture of you. Go to the website, you can see it soon.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

It's interesting, is it? You can say handsome horse, you can't say handsome lamb, can you? What is that then? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 30:23

You can't you know tasty lamb is interesting. Um but we also saw deer. Uh there is there is a but there was a deer park, of course. Yeah, it's a herd of deer. Is it herd? Deer? Deer herd? Uh I don't know. I think so. Um, yeah, up there as well. So, you know, incredible wildlife and and lots of birds, of course.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

And and can I thank you for I know what your sense of humour's like, can I thank you for not making a fuss about the kissing gates? Or indeed mentioning them.

SPEAKER_02 30:49

Well, yeah, there is a story there, because like you know, when Dad sent me this this particular walk plan, because you know, once we have an idea that we find we find a plan over the walk, obviously. Um, and the first thing I spotted was how many kissing gates there were on this particular walk. And I said we hadn't agreed the ground rules for the kissing gate, ground rules for kissing gates. So we're okay. We um we we helped each other through the kissing gates, but that was as far as we went.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

I didn't see any puckering, as I think. No puckering whatsoever.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

Yeah, so kissing gates are okay now. You're gonna go and look up, aren't you, what the origin of the term kissing gates? Because well, you gave me you gave me uh I think that's the origin, is the fact again it's an opportunity for couples to kiss as they go through. I think it's very much the kind of Bronte period. Um I may be wrong.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

I I think there's unlimited opportunities for couples to kiss. I'm not sure why you need a gate.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

Oh, I think in those days a little of uh you know there was there was a I think it was more of a need for a declared opportunity, shall we say? Declared opportunity. Yes, very good. All right, perfect. Well, thank you very much. It's been a fabulous walk. Uh looking forward to writing this one up and um off and on to our next one. As you said, the guest interview uh next week. Next week is with Sadie and then maybe Penny Van. Maybe you're lobbying for Wales and um it's a strong possibility. Very good. All right, I'm enjoying it.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

You have been listening to Walking Into Retirement, an unusual podcast about finding purpose, meaning, and balance after a busy working life with David Adeling Smith and Peter Taylor. Find out more at www.walking into retirement.com and why not share your own retirement stories with the hosts.