#5 Identity - The impact of losing career-based structure that often defines a person

For many people their career is a big part of how they define themselves, so what happens when that 'identity' through work is no longer there?

DAS and Peter are joined by Sadie Wackett to explore this topic as part of the ongoing elderescence journey.

Retirement is not just a financial transition but it is also an identity transition - often the hardest part of this whole 'retirement' business is actually the fear of losing who you thought that you were.

 In their usual style DAS and Peter, and Sadie, consider what this means and how anyone might better manage this change.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:19

Walking into retirement, an unusual podcast about finding purpose, meaning, and balance after a busy working life with David Ailing Smith and Peter Taylor. Exploring the emotional, psychological, and practical realities of modern retirement through a series of reflective conversations undertaken whilst walking scenic routes across the UK.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

Hello, Peter. Hello, Daz. Here we are, number five. Yeah, it's good. The last one. I enjoyed the last one. Did you like the last one? I did. It was very enjoyable. It was um based on a wonderful, wonderful book. And um yeah, I'm looking forward to our next one, of course, as well.

SPEAKER_03 0:56

Big hill though, wasn't it, Broadway? I mean, it was you were you were panting a bit. Do you mind me saying that?

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Well, you're taking me up a Welsh mountain next, so goodness knows what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03 1:07

That's true. But we've had some nice feedback. I appreciated that, you know, as we talked about some of the dilemmas that some people may come across in retirement. So, you know, I think we're touching a nerve with with our listener.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

We're gaining traction. I think that's that's where we are.

SPEAKER_03 1:22

Yes, and a couple of people have have asked me, Peter, how you know how best to interact with us. And so what how what's the what's the best answer to that thing? Where where can people find us?

SPEAKER_02 1:31

Well, I mean, you know, first of all, obviously, I you know, I'm sure you can work this out. If someone is listening to these instructions, they found us already. But um that's a bit facetious, I know, but let's touch on that one. Look, we have a website, www.walkingintoretirement.com. Um, you can also say the Alexa word, I'm being careful because I'm trying not to wake mine up. You can say a um play, walking into retirement podcasts, for example. Uh, we're on YouTube, we're on Apple, we're on Spotify, Amazon Music, Podcast Addict, Podchaser, um, Player FM, and all other good uh podcasting channels out there. Um, and of course, you know, we're on LinkedIn as well. And if people just want to contact us or reach out to us, um, we'll happily send the direct link to them, of course, as well.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

Well, that's great. Yeah, actually, we we've had a couple of nice comments um about well, people offering topics as well, which I think we're gonna be coming back to in subsequent episodes. And we're running with this theme, aren't we, Peter? That we'll have a walk one week and then we'll talk about a theme, and then a following week we'll have a guest and we'll dive in, we'll have a bit more of a deep dive into something that's come up on a previous chat. And and this week's a guest week, of course, which is very exciting. So we will we will reveal our guest in a minute. But the topic, Peter, for for this week is identity. And this has come up a couple of times. So, what's your thoughts about this, Peter, as a topic?

SPEAKER_02 2:57

I think it's a good one, actually, because it you know, it it is a way that you measure yourself, and we'll you know, we have lightly touched on perhaps we should go deep at some point when we're both comfortable, but you know, we've lightly touched on your transition into eldorescence or through eldorescence, and you know, I'm I'm kind of flirting with the very edges of it, etc. And that and that is one of the things that I think is a big concern, is it you know, what is your what is your identity on the other side of that that vortex or black hole or whatever you want to describe it is what what becomes your identity when you've moved on?

SPEAKER_03 3:32

Yeah, well, I mean, perhaps you know, I'd like to just broaden it a bit. And I think, you know, for many people who, you know, broadly speaking have loved their job or the organization they work for, uh, perhaps you know, have been defined to some extent by what they do. I think this this work persona, this identity, you know, can be who they are, uh, or perhaps it is who they are to the people around them, or perhaps even you know, who they think they are. So I think it gets formed at work. And we talked last week a little bit about how some of those habits at work are a bit counterintuitive when you move away from work. They don't actually help you with the with the with the work that you do that follows. And uh, you know, when when they're thinking about stepping away from a job, I think questions surface for people, like you've just said, you know, for whatever reason, and it raises real questions of identity. Um and I think for me, I think entering eldolescence just has led to some reflection um about identity. And I I'd like to give you a quote, Peter, from the philosopher Frederick Nietzsche. Do you know him? Are you a fan of your own? Not personally, no, but um I've heard of him, he obviously. He he you the quote, uh one of his most famous quotes is what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. Which uh that was him, was it? Oh yeah. Yeah, that was him. That's him. But he he talks about to become who you are, and I thought that was a really nice way to frame perhaps uh the opportunity that we all have when we enter elder essence. And he also talks about it as being not just an act of discovery, you know, discovering who you are after what he wasn't actually talking about retirement particularly, but I think it works an act of discovery and creation, and I really like that. The fact that one of the benefits of retirement, and we really should do one of our podcasts on the benefits of retirement, Peter, is an opportunity to both discover or create who you are. And so I'd like to sort of follow through on those ideas with our guest. And so, can I welcome Sadie, a friend to the walking, uh the podcast we had previously, the Squid of Despair, and now with us into walking into retirement. So hello, Sadie. Nice to talk to you again.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Hello, Das. Hello, Peter. Thanks for having me back. It's lovely to be reconnected with you.

SPEAKER_03 5:45

It's a pleasure, it's a pleasure. And and and people who have listened to us before may know Sadie's a friend of ours, is uh is a coach who partners with executive women. Um I've seen some of the work you've done more recently, Sadie, um, breaking through limits, that masterclass with with uh your executives um and executive presence for women. Really, really um impressed with that sort of work. And in fact, there was a quote from which I something you wrote recently, which made me made me think about wanting to talk to you about this topic. And if I could just quote you for a moment, Sadie. You said that when uh leadership transitions um most leadership transitions don't fail because of poor strategy, they stall because of identity. When when the title falls away, a deep question emerges, who am I without it? And uh this is the work that most people avoid. And I thought that was really interesting. And I know, well, I'd love to ask you about that in terms of where did that phrase come from? When do you think that is relevant for retirement? So, yeah, welcome, Sadie. So um that that quote when the title falls away, a deep question emerges, who am I without it? Can you give me a bit more background to that? I wasn't sure which uh which of your where that came from in your work.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Yeah, um, so I think that was drawn from a um um workshop, uh masterclass, a session, whatever you want to call it, that I did quite recently with a group of executives who are going through this transition, either chosen or forced transition, where they have been very senior in their organizations, C-suite executives, and now for some reasons they are forced to be facing either uh you know looking for another job or just deciding what the next chapter of their life is going to bring. And these are people that have never had to really think about it before, never really had to face it before, they've worked hard, they've had long tenured, successful careers, and now they are um you know in a place which is incredibly uncomfortable for them. So I ran this session for them to help, I guess really to help unpick this question about if I'm not this anymore, then who am I? It really, it's a it's a very challenging time for people, and I can relate to this personally as well. And whether it's through career transition or whether it's retirement, either chosen retirement, forced retirement, it doesn't um, you know, it the underneath it all the experience is similar because I think what people often experience at that point when one day they had a lot of structure, a lot of um, I guess, purpose, if you like, in their in their daily lives, um, it quite quickly transitions to a loss of feeling relevant. You know, do I still matter if I don't have this corporate job? Do am I still relevant in the world? I think that's a really big one that came to me in a in a flash when I was, I remember kind of you know walking around my kitchen thinking, why am I feeling so lost here? Oh, I just don't feel relevant anymore. That's scary. So at the at the heart of it, it kind of taps into our fears about no longer being relevant, no longer mattering. And then I think the other aspect of it, if I'm you know, if I'm not doing this anymore, then who am I? It's this loss of structure. So what do I do with my time? What do I how do I feel my days? How do I know what whether I'm being kind of productive or quote valuable? And then this also this loss of confidence. Am I still capable of doing what I thought I was here to do? And if I'm not, you know, what can I do? What should I do? And so all this leaves us really disorientated for a while. And and so, as I said, whether it's retirement, whether it's um, I think any key transition, that's where I've been really tapping into supporting individuals in helping them not only understand the answer to that question, who am I? It's then also who do I want to be in this next chapter of my life? What is this season here to offer me? Um, and how do I find meaning in this next season, this next chapter? And it is so powerful because we have just not been asking ourselves those questions. We just we aren't taught to, you know, society, the corporate environment doesn't ever ask us to think about who we are or what we want. It really conditions us to focus on being productive and what we kind of quote unquote should be doing. Um so I'll pause there for a second.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

Well, I was gonna make a point there, but you know, we we've joked in the past about you know, the uh, you know, the the gold watch was uh for people a lot of people was all of the uh you know sort of mental support and guidance they needed to move into retirement when then there was nothing uh at all. But but going back to what you said, Sadie, I mean I'm thinking, you know, do you feel then that um you know perhaps people who have the strongest work identities tend to find this transition significantly harder? There's a there's a kind of correlation there?

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Yeah, I mean I do based on my um uh the samples that I've been exposed to, you know, yeah, I do. And you know, I use my dad as one of them, and I think generationally we might look back at our parents who um, you know, their their whole sense of worth has been tied to uh contribution, performance, impact, you know, in their in their work environment, and then for some reason that stops. And you know, you know, you look around and go, well, how do I how do I create impact in the world now? What do I care about now? Because people who are very dedicated and committed to their work, they care. It matters, and so if you take away something that people care about that matters to them, it leaves a big void. So if you are somebody who is less, I don't know, career focused and you have a lot of um richness outside of your life, so you have you know other passions, other um, I'm not gonna say hobbies, I really don't like that word hobbies, but other things that really light you up, whether it's um in community, whether it's in self-development, whether it's in the arts, whatever it is, if you have that pull, that gravitational pull in a different direction, it it almost frees you up to explore and experiment with other areas of your life that you've been interested in.

SPEAKER_03 12:46

Yeah, it's yes, you're you're touching on so many points that uh you know have come up in our conversations already, Sadie. And I'm interested whether you you see a gender difference here. I I know you're you focus on um executive women, uh, but the the you know the phrasing you use is the relevancy, the disorientation, um, the impact to the world, they're all things that I would recognise, you know, as a as a as a recently retired man. Uh yeah, we have talked in the past about the fact that you know women, unlike men, sometimes have long career breaks relative to having a child. And I wonder whether that actually does that prepare women for this, or does it does it make it worse because there's another identity there with which they're juggling?

SPEAKER_01 13:34

So, you know, in answer to your first question, is there a gender difference? I think at the at the very heart of it, I'll say this is my opinion, I'll say no. Like those questions around relevance and all of that still apply. Um but I think there is nuance between you know what women experience and what men experience, and that's just because I I think of the way the gendered roles are established in our society. So, you know, still men are the majority uh breadwinners, earners, those that go out and work outside of the home, and then there are a higher percentage of women who who um don't work outside of the home, who stay, you know, in and care for their families. And so I could equate it in some respects. So I'll start here. If a if a parent, a mother who doesn't work outside of the home, when her children leave home and she becomes an empty nester, that's a really big transition point for her. Um, you know, when so much of her life has been dedicated to raising the children and you know, being the parent, and then she's no longer needed in that capacity. That's when I see kind of transition points and struggles, if you like, around you know, contribution and value and meaning. Um, with women in the workplace, what I what I'm seeing here is it's what I'm seeing is less about retirement. I'm seeing this shift, and it's proving out in the data. If you look, there are more and more women leaving corporate environments than than than ever before, and and that's across the age spectrum. And if I look at people in midlife, women at midlife age, there are more women women leaving because they're just realizing actually, this doesn't feel like success to me. So they're taking a somewhat proactive approach to looking at their lives and saying, well, hang on, I was told I could have it all, you know, the family, the career, etc. And what was meant to be successful on paper doesn't feel like that. I feel like I've compromised so much, I feel like my worth isn't valued. Um and um, and actually, I'm at this point in my life where I don't know that I want the next chapter to look like this and feel like this. I want to feel more fulfilled, I want to feel more like successful on my own terms, not by how everybody else is telling me I should live. So I'm seeing this um this these two different dynamics in women and and their sort of uh experience of transition. And with men, I think it is definitely associated very strongly with this work identity and and who am I if I'm not this uh this professional individual. Um, so again, generalizations, but that's my lived experience.

SPEAKER_03 16:35

Yeah, make makes perfect sense. And and and and I'd like to just go back on following up on Peter's question about you know, do you feel that you the individuals you work with that have had the particularly more senior jobs are particularly predisposed to this sort of um challenge? And and I wonder whether, you know, is do you think that is because uh the their um I'm just gonna give a basket of uh indicators here, you know, their their work ethic, their um their drive, their enthusiasm, their their hunger for success is is strong with them, and therefore these are all the things that are most noticeably absent uh when they uh uh when they leave work. So I'm wondering whether, you know, is it is it is it their their character, the personality type that causes this, do you think, or is there something else going on here?

SPEAKER_01 17:31

I think it's definitely a key part of it. So um, you know, executives, senior people who have dedicated really their lives to their careers and driving for results and delivering they're you know, people who get to that level tend to be you know high-performing individuals, very committed, very dedicated, very motivated by the work that they're doing. Um, they're not checked out, you know, they're not passive, they have to be very actively involved in the work that they're doing every day. They feel it gives them a sense of purpose and connection, it rewards them in um ways that matter to them. So it might be financial, that might be a big part of it. Um, but it also might be um they've they're rewarded by the the ability to impact a more large organization or to lead a team. And so when those things are which are deeply um sort of ingrained in their in their value system, when they're taken away and not replaced thoughtfully, um then it's a yeah, it's a vacuum. And it's a that's why I mean, you know, I love hearing about phased retirements, planned retirement. I mean, in fact, I think it's just a question of the whole word retirement. I don't think, I think it's an antiquated expression that the meaning is actually changed. So, you know, what it used to mean is um, you know, people would uh it was defined kind of by your age that when you get to 60 or 65, you quote unquote retire. It used to be very linear, you'll work this way, you'll go up, you'll go up, you'll go up, and then you'll finish. Um, and it was, you know, very final. It was you retire and then you rest. All these, you've earned the right to stop, but nobody wants to stop. People don't want to just stop, they want to continue.

SPEAKER_03 19:28

They want to it's eldorescence, isn't it, Sadie?

SPEAKER_02 19:30

I knew I knew you're gonna come in that with that.

SPEAKER_03 19:32

That was a perfect intro to your word elder. Thank you, Sadie. You're well done. You may you may have heard that we you know invented this word because I, like you, did did not like the sort of the binary nature of the phrase retirement, and so yeah, eldorescence for me, like adolescence and matrescence, was describing a process that we go through which is more gradual and one one of becoming rather than stopping. So, no, thank you, Sadie, for helping me support this word because Peter's not really a fan. I am a fan.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

It's how you look at life, right? We used to look at life in a very linear way. Well, we still do, in many respects. People are looking at their lives as a line from start to finish. And in fact, in reality, our life is a series of loops, of circles. It's like a, I think of it like a sort of a spiral that goes upwards, because um constantly changing, we're constantly evolving and growing, and we we go through these seasons of our lives that in in every single stage there is a different purpose to it and you know, different focus on it. We things matter to us in a different way. And so, you know, this find there's a a guy called James Hollis who wrote a book called Finding Path of Life, which I recommend anybody read. Um, it really helps us understand how what we used to strive for in an early part of our life, which was achievement, uh, you know, meeting our goals, getting the house, the car, the the kids, the, you know, the salary, um, the promotion, they start to matter very differently to us in the second half of our life, where things come become much more about um, you know, who am I, what, what, who am I apart from all the roles that I hold in my life? What's my what's my soul asking of me right now? You know, it becomes much more sort of existential and spiritual and a period of self-discovery. And I think that the people that choose to look at this and intentionally allow themselves the space to explore these questions, they're the people that have very rich experiences in the second half of their life, rather than those that feel like they're you know band-aid's ripped off.

SPEAKER_03 21:51

Yeah. Yeah. I'd I'd really like to I'd like to follow up on that actually, because I I think I'd like to take this conversation with with that fantastic sort of introduction there into. You know, my Nietzsche quote to become who you are. It's not just a it's not a simple slogan. I think it's actually a complex philosophical challenge. It's not just be yourself. You know, he he talked about it's active creation, not just passive uh discovery through continuous effort. And I think you're saying that, aren't you, Sadie? That and I'd like to I'd like to propose that actually one of the huge benefits of retirement, which uh you know we've not talked about yet, I don't think, Peter, is this opportunity to become who you are, you you know, to become the best version of yourself you can be. And I and I sort of feel that that's uh that's the work you're doing with your executive women, Sadie.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Yeah, it it and I and I would say that to do that, to do that work takes a level of awareness that not many people have, and so that it it some it needs a catalyst of some description. So as we go into these different stages of our lives, knowing that this is an opportunity that's offering us something, but knowing that we can't necessarily do it all by ourselves. We're gonna get stuck, we're gonna get stuck in these old patterns, these old beliefs that we have, um, around, well, you know, I'm only valuable if I'm being productive or I only matter if I've got, you know, if I'm earning money, for example. There's all these beliefs that are still gonna be there. And those are the things we need help in working through and picking and redesigning. And that's exactly you know, the support that people going through this need. And I I honestly don't know how much support people get when they're moving through this um adorescence phase. I don't know what exists for them.

SPEAKER_03 23:47

Perfect usage of that term. Yeah, thank you. No, I I mean I think that I mean, I know this is you this is a focus of yours, but this sort of this active uh creation, I think it is about overcoming these internalized values, you know, trying to liberate yourself from those norms that you've been told are you know who you should be. And I know you spent a lot of time on that. Um, and and it's but it's not easy work, is it? It requires discipline, willpower, and and there's something here about which makes me feel positive about it, that you know, that willpower and drive that people who have enjoyed their work miss when they stop working, have actually it's got an opportunity here to be perhaps pointed towards uh this quest to try and understand how do they um perhaps how do they speak to their values more, perhaps how they generate new values that that they can create given the change in circumstance and the time they've got available to them. So but you make you made the point, say this is not easy work, is it?

SPEAKER_01 24:50

No, and and the heart of what you're saying there is this question about what does success mean to me now? Like success has looked a certain way for me my whole life, and now it has to look different, and I get the opportunity to create that in a way that really is resonant to me. It's hard work, especially, and one of the other things I think it takes, as well as like determination, is vulnerability. People who are willing to embrace this next chapter of their life, I think need to be willing to be very vulnerable about the things that are hard for them, about the things they love, about the things they're scared of, um, about the things that excite them, what their desires are, what their um, you know, what their worries are. It's we want it to all get out there on the table. I think of it like cleaning a kitchen cupboard. You have to get everything out first before you can make it sort of look and organized in the way that you you really want it to.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

We like a message, we like a metaphor.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

Exactly. No, you're spot on. So, how many you know, herbs have you got that are like 2020 cell-by-day? It's funny, that's a really great analogy as well, because we do we do. There are things that are no longer valuable to us that we've carried around for a long time, that were given to us, that we have to be honest about it. You know, it's not here to serve me anymore. I'm gonna, it's not giving me any flavour in my life anymore. I need to let this one, we need to chuck this one away.

SPEAKER_03 26:28

No, no, this is gonna run and run, Sadie. I like this. I'm looking, I'm gonna look forward to that analogy appearing on a future masterclass where you talk about the herbs and spices in your cupboard.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

Yeah, oh my gosh. My sister actually sent me a picture the other day of one. She said, Do you think it's all right? And it was the 2020 expiry day. And I was like, Nah, you're not gonna get anything out of that.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

Yeah, when we moved, well, a couple of years ago when we moved, it was embarrassing as we went through them thoroughly and it's oh my goodness me. But so can I ask a question to kind of you know align to this, if I may, in sense that do you think then the problems, the challenges, the difficulties people with have of accepting retirement is that they all they know is is trying to put up a battle to retain the identity they they've had, as opposed to freeing themselves to consider the identity they could have or or expanding their identity.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

Yeah, I think do, and I think it's it's not their fault. Um, and what I mean by that is you know, um there are systems that we operate in, that we live in, in these, you know, whether it's the UK or the US, there are messages that are sent to us um, you know, intentionally and unintentionally, about who is worthy and who is not worthy. And, you know, if you are no longer a productive member of the working environment, there isn't much telling you that you matter, that you still have an important role to play in this world. And so while we can do all the inner work we want around our identity and you know what this next chapter brings up for us and what we want to do, and what our values are and all of that, um if we're still going to be sort of pushing against those beliefs, those societal beliefs, that we don't matter as much as other people do. And that's you know, that's something we can't necessarily control. So, you know, I think this work is about understanding within those systems and those kind of power structures and those capitalist um corporate uh beliefs. Where do we have agency to create a meaningful second half of our life or you know, third half of our life, third part of our life rather? Um where do we have agency within that to design it in a way that matters to us, regardless of what society's messages are? Um and I think it's really important to state that because it can sound a bit simplistic to say, well, you know, you just need to do the work and then you'll be fine. Yeah, and also you're gonna hear, you know, people just start to pass you by, and that hurts. And um, and and so I don't know, I I think it's uh it's something as a society we you know that we have to be more active in um in recognizing that we've got uh we do have an aging population and these people matter, they have value to contribute, they have um experience and wisdom to share with others, and we have to listen to that. So that's what I think.

SPEAKER_03 29:49

No, I that's thank you. And and I mean that's where that sort of the elder of the adorescence came from. You know, we we sort of like that that construct that actually there was wisdom associated with uh a life well lived that has value to uh folks that are at different stages of their life, and I think one of the things I think Peter and I have spotted as we spoke to people and as we've talked, it's a very personal journey, this for everybody. And so also very cognizant that a lot of the things we talk about won't resonate with people because it's not their story, and that's something to do with their upbringing, isn't it? It's something to do with their personal uh strengths, their their aspirations, their their life journey. And so um, but I'm I'm quite excited about the fact that you know, perhaps elder essence is uh an almost unique opportunity for self-development. So, you know, like adolescence and matrescence, you know, a big transitional point in people's lives, which uh one could uh talk about it superficially in terms of having more time to fulfil your interest and hobbies. I I'll use that pro that word in that way, um Sadie, to sort of downplay it. But actually, it also gives you the opportunity to do this harder work, which I'm sure is ultimately going to be more fulfilling and more rewarding for people. So perhaps it's a really, really, really exciting time for people, and and perhaps we can sort of close on that. That this is a moment and people can not uh just be themselves but become the best version of themselves they can be.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

Yeah, and that's a yeah, it's a beautiful way to frame it. It is such an opportunity here that um that people are being offered to ask themselves the question in this next stage of my life, what could be possible for me? Yes. And reframing it in terms of possibility and opportunity, and I think that's very powerful.

SPEAKER_03 31:46

Yes, I agree. Thank you so much, Sadie. I'm conscious of our time. Um, Peter, I don't know if there's any more final reflections from you, but it feels like a very good discussion on identity and what it was and what it could be.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

Yeah, no, it's a great one. Thank you, Sadie. I think and you know, I thought I was briefly up something about the kind of the four types of identity. There's personal identity, role identity, social identity, there's collective identity. And you know, if you think about that, I'm stopping working. If you take that part of it, then you know, perhaps your personal identity retains as it was, but your role fundamentally changes, your social identity shifts. You might have had two parallel social uh worlds, and collectively it will also change it. So you can see how this really does impact that whole broad subject of identity. So, yeah, we appreciate you taking us through it and sharing some of your thoughts.

SPEAKER_03 32:34

Thank you, Sadie, and and looking forward to the Spice and Herb uh analogy making its way into the universe at some point in the future. Oh, yeah. You heard it here. Okay, thanks both. Uh, enjoy the conversation.

unknown 32:47

All right.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

You have been listening to Walking Into Retirement, an unusual podcast about finding purpose, meaning, and balance after a busy working life with David Ailing Smith and Peter Taylor. Find out more at www.walking into retirement.com. And why not share your own retirement stories with the host?