#7 Returning - When going back to work is a post-retirement option

After a busy, perhaps pressurised, work life then retirement can be seen as the perfect solution.

But what drives so many people to return to work, or some form of work?

Peter and DAS  are joined by their latest guest, Dean Stockwell, who talks about the positives and some negatives of retirement and what drew him to returning to the workplace, albeit in a very different role.

The main motivations for such a return are discussed including financial (very common), social contact/enjoyment, metal health improvement and the opportunity to 'give back'.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:19

Walking into retirement, an unusual podcast about finding purpose, meaning, and balance after a busy working life with David Ailing Smith and Peter Taylor. Exploring the emotional, psychological, and practical realities of modern retirement through a series of reflective conversations undertaken whilst walking scenic groups across the UK.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Hi Daz. Hello, Peter. How are you? Have you recovered from your last walk? I've recovered from the last walk, and as I sent you a photo, I took I took my good lady wife to go and look at the bottom of the path, and she declined to uh to do the walk again with me because we happened to be in the same area at the weekend, and uh it was much, much busier, I will have to say, when we went back. But no, I did enjoy the walk and I I feel recovered now.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

I'm looking forward to that being posted because I thought it was uh it was fun. I mean the the the topic was basically the joy of retirement. I felt we'd spent a lot of time talking about some of the challenges, and it was it was really nice to talk through all the possibilities of having a bit of time, having a bit of choice, and what that might allow for. So uh I hope you know hope that lands well with our listener.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

I'm sure it will. And and I think um it was great because I think you felt very good with you know you felt very happy with that general topic, and and because I was out of breath most of the time, I didn't have too much to say, so you managed to go through your list quite quickly, I feel.

SPEAKER_03 1:42

I did. I felt it was one of our more successful podcasts, actually. But we move on, we move on, don't we? We've got a guest today. Of course, and looking forward to talking to our guest, and perhaps to put this into context, as as as uh as our listener will know, we're we're basically alternating the guests with our walks, and we've been looking at the different starting positions, I suppose, for retirement or elder essences. I will keep plugging. Um, and we've we've talked about forced retirements, we've talked about challenges in retirements, we've talked about the joy of retirement, and today we want to talk to our guest about the possibility of returning to work after retirement. You know, we know that work is a great uh pull for you know many of us that have enjoyed our working lives, and some of us stay in the retirement phase and others decide they want to go back. And so I'd like to introduce Dean. So, Dean, so nice to have you on the call.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

Thank you for having me, guys. It's a pleasure.

SPEAKER_03 2:40

And you know, just to just to share with our with our listener, Dean, Peter, and I have worked together in the past, but maybe you could introduce yourself, Dean, in terms of you know, in broad terms, the the role you had and and you know the fact you you are I believe in retirement, but I think you are, I believe, thinking of coming out of retirement. So do you want to just talk us through as an introduction who you are and what you do?

SPEAKER_02 3:03

Yeah, certainly. I don't know how I'd classify myself, to be honest, at this moment in time, but I um yeah, I enjoyed a um uh uh a career where I like like your good self, so I've managed to sort of um rise up the ranks over time and um ended up working with yourself, Daz and Peter at a company called Day Force in a in a fairly senior role. I was senior vice president for the Asia Pacific Services Organization with a team of about 300 people, and um, as you can imagine in Asia Pacific, quite a fair amount of travel around the world as well. And I I I've had a very enjoyable career, but I think it's fair to say the last um two or three years of my work in life uh got to be fairly taxing on my on my sort of mental health and my overall enjoyment of life, I guess. And um I think COVID had a fair amount to do with it as well. I I I shortly after COVID kind of settled down a bit, I we we were all in a very fortunate position at Day Force where we could work remotely or hybrid work or whatever we wanted to do. And I I had a a confluence at the time of my children um sort of leaving home and heading off to university and found myself with a big house in Sydney um with just my wife and I, and we decided to to relocate um a couple of hours south of Sydney to a more of a lifestyle uh place to live. And then the knock-on effect of that was I started looking at my my work, and the two things didn't really gel very well, and um just so I haven't had an opportunity to um to gracefully exit my position at the time, and uh at the ripe old age of 54 years old, I decided to to take what I was calling at the time early retirement, yeah. And um, and and that's kind of uh been the case for the last year. So I'll uh I'll I'll I'll pause there and that's sort of how how we sit today.

SPEAKER_03 5:06

Um, I mean that that thank you, Dean. And I'm just I was just reflecting, man, that that that pressure of the last couple of years of work, that was nothing to do with your new boss, was it?

SPEAKER_02 5:15

No, no, I quite liked my new boss actually.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

Well, you know, I think your story is a good one, and it and it and it I think it's relatable for so many people. And and and how was that first year, Dean? I mean, I you know I can reflect on the fact that you know you did a fantastic job in in the region, and it was it was a brutal role in the sense that not only did he have all the challenges of a very diverse um set of customers and and partners and employees across multiple countries, you know, you had to deal with multiple time zones, dealing with Europe, dealing with the US. And so you know, you were on you were on late night calls, early morning calls for a lot of that period, weren't you, which I'm sure took its toll.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

Yeah, absolutely right, does. I mean, um, yeah, it wasn't uncommon for me to be to be on a call um you know at midnight my time and then on another call at 5 a.m. and just cramming in some sleep in between in between the different time zones. Um I've got to say the company was was very um generous in terms of its its demands for me to get on those calls. But in that type of role, as you know, um it's it's it's easy to kind of lose lose um control, if you like, or or even lose awareness of what's going on in the world if you don't turn up for certain calls. So it's something which was as as you've pointed out, was was certainly extremely taxing on on my life. Um fortunately, I've got a very uh a lovely wife who who was very understanding, and and funnily enough, she's she's recently started her own HR consulting business where she's doing a lot of HR work for companies around the world, and now she's living uh a taste of that life, and I'm supporting her. So it's um it's uh it it's interesting. But but um I think I think there were a combination of things that led me to my decision. One of them was that that concept of never being able to switch off in a role like that, both in terms of even if you're not getting on the calls, you're lying in bed thinking about what what's happening tomorrow. Um, the pressure, you know, and I'm one of these people, as hopefully you would have seen. Um, I like to be adding value, I like to be looking after people, I I'm I'm a pretty empathetic person. I sincerely care about the people in the team. And I got to a point where I didn't think I was up for the job anymore, to be honest. And and and that that bothered me from a mental health perspective. Nothing, nothing serious, but it got me thinking, you know, if I do this for another five years, I'm probably not going to be in such a good place. So I decided to to pull the pin when I pulled it, basically.

SPEAKER_03 8:02

Yeah, and well, I mean it's so interesting, isn't it? You know, people like yourself and people who are very engaged with their roles, you know, want to come onto this, you know, when when you stop, it's a huge difference. And of course, there's a there's a you know a lot of relief from that, I'm sure. There's a lot of um we talked on our walk, didn't we, Peter, about just the that reduction of pressure when you when you know you you get yourself into a situation where actually you realize the the burden you've been carrying for so long. And I mean, I know this wasn't your case, uh Dean, but you know, lots of people with high-powered jobs that work uh uh uh diligently, like you've described, are very vulnerable to burnout, in my opinion. And you know, we've seen a lot of it in our industry where actually that that sort of that work ethic, that wish to do well for those around you or your organization just can lead to just expending more energy than you've got. And so it's not a it's not an unusual tale, I don't think, for for senior individuals to you know run out of steam, if I could just describe it in that way.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

No, absolutely, you know, I'd probably sorry to jump in there, Daz, but I would say that it's um it's something that we should all be talking about more as well, which is one of the reasons I I wanted to come on this podcast. I don't think we should be afraid to say, I'm feeling that burnout. You know, I need to, if your company's gonna support you in a sabbatical or something like that to help, that that's fantastic. In my case, I'd I'd kind of done a sabbatical about 10 or 15 years ago. I'd done something a little bit different, and I'd come back again, and and I thought this time I need to really um, you know, I am burnt out. And looking back on it, I was definitely burnt out without without doubt. And um this was this was the the best option for me, I think.

SPEAKER_03 9:42

Yeah, well, uh you know, I I think uh well I'm I'm very interested, Dean, in in how was that for you? You know, how how was that on the on the sort of the Monday after you stopped? And what was your what was your growing realization over that over this last year of you know the wonderful things that that allowed for, but perhaps the nagging, the the nagging, the voice in your head about what you were missing about it. Love to hear about that.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

Yeah, we've we've we're uh a funny species, us human beings, because um it wasn't long after I stopped. Obviously, the there was there was absolute joy initially at not having to look at a calendar and not having to get on that late night call. And even even the concept of not having to check 150 emails when I wake up in the morning, because of course I'm on the other side of the world to where most of those emails originate, and that was my daily routine, and and the joy at not having to do that initially lasted probably a week or two, and then there was this feeling of not being needed anymore, and and a little bit of depression, if you like, that crept in of you know what's what's my purpose in life now, and I wasn't very well prepared for that, if I'm honest. I I had a few different hobbies on the go. I enjoy a bit of fishing, and I had plenty I wanted to do, and and and I'd planned to do to take up some other activities when I had the time to do it, but I I found myself actually uh a couple of weeks in watching an awful lot of YouTube videos and drinking a lot of drinking a lot of cups of tea and trying to figure out um what my routine was going to look like. And and I would probably say that lasted about three months, and then once I got into a bit of a groove, I don't think I ever really found the right routine, but I got into a groove where I was accepting this and it's okay. And you know, I had a lot of people around me saying, you know, you've just retired at 54 years old. For God's sake, just enjoy yourself, you know, go and have a game of golf, just do something. And and and I didn't really feel like doing too much, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Um, and well, you're craving a routine now. I mean, it's interesting, isn't it? Because we we reflected in the past, Daddy, you and I, about you know, work offers that structure, offers that routine, offers that's being a part of your life, it's just managed by other people effectively. So it's interesting you say the fact that the you know in those early weeks and uh months, you you're you know, you had no you were looking for that, almost looking for that routine. Yeah, absolutely, Peter.

SPEAKER_02 12:18

In fact, it it I was very unprepared for what that looked like. It it you know, I'd I'd been thinking about this point in time for some time, but I was very unprepared. And yeah, I was I was really missing the routine of having to be somewhere at a certain point in time, even if it was to turn up for a uh a fairly pointless Zoom call that I didn't really need to be at. Um, there's that there's that feeling we have where we want to we want to be wanted and and we want to turn up on that call and have a bit of a chat with people. And and the other, yeah, that that touches on another a big part of this was the disconnection of um, you know, I'm now living in this seaside town a couple of hours south of Sydney, beautiful um place to live, very close to the beach, but I didn't have apart from my wife, there wasn't really anyone around for me to talk to because my life evolved around talking to work colleagues.

SPEAKER_03 13:12

Can I just say, Dean, that was a bit harsh. I enjoyed our Zoom calls. I I thought they were quite useful. It is interesting. I mean, you said a couple of things, you know, the loss of routine, and you didn't use you didn't say this, but uh let me say it for you sort of a loneliness, a loneliness associated with not having your community because you know you you had a great reputation in our organization, Dean, for being a very high quality leader that people respected. And one of the reasons that worked, I think, is because you were very authentic and you cared. And so I'm sure the sort of your end of that emotion was that you probably got a lot of energy from those people, and you were very you were very informed and educated by your team. And I and I I have I have some insights into this myself. And when they go, you miss them, don't you?

SPEAKER_02 13:59

Absolutely. No, and appreciate the kind words. I uh I was fortunate enough to enjoy a birthday a couple of weeks ago. And funnily enough, I got I got about five or six test text messages from people on the day of my birthday that I used to work with a year ago, wishing me happy birthday, and it just put a smile on my face because I haven't spoken to those people for months and months and months, but you know, they're still there. It's just that that routine and that lack of structure for you to have that regular connection.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

Yeah, yeah, we heard we heard that. It kind of reflects on what on the point Sally made about you know forced redundancy in her case, but it was that was one of the things she really worried about because a huge amount of uh a social existence was work-related, and and that she felt disappeared what it to her. I think it appeared to disappear rapidly. I don't think it's true. I know she's been in contact with a few people from work since, but it is that you know, it's it's it's it's a huge part of our social life, disappears over the horizon.

SPEAKER_03 14:52

And it's interesting you said you sort of after two or three months, Dean, you you know, you got into a a new routine because I certainly noticed the the the um the fishing photographs dropped off a bit. Yes, I I was amused and also delighted and very jealous about you know the some of the catches you were sending to me, just teasing me slightly about the fact you were off fishing now. But that did slow down. And so what what was that new routine like? Was it was it one of these hobbies or passions that you devoted yourself to?

SPEAKER_02 15:21

Well, it's an interesting question, Dass. So so I um you know, without getting into the gory details, one of the reasons that um I I have been in a position to sort of give up work at a what most people would say is a fairly early age is is one, I've had a great career and I've had some nice jobs that paid me some money, but I've also had an interest in property for about 20 or so years, and property in Australia has done quite well. But uh my wife will be the first to tell you that when I'm bored, uh it typically results in me spending a lot of money on something, and um, so I went and bought a house um in the same town that we were living in, um, with a view to us living in that house, but there was a certain amount of renovation work that needed to be done. So I've spent the last six months on the tools um renovating the house we're now in, and um I have not had a minute to think about boredom or loneliness or disconnection or anything. I've just plowed myself into this project, yeah, and that has kept me that has kept me off the beach, not fishing, as as you've rightly point out. Um, but um I've been in a pretty happy place because whilst most people might think that's the worst thing they could ever do, I I actually enjoy the process um being on the tools for eight or ten hours a day and and building stuff. And um, so so that now that project, and and we'll we'll get into the next phase in a minute, I guess, but that project has now come to a point where it's done. And and so now I'm sitting here again, like, okay, what what do I do now?

SPEAKER_03 17:08

Yeah, and it's interesting, isn't it? So you know, there's a focus, a project, there's a passion, you know, you you put your energies into it, I'm sure it's beautiful, um Dean, and that stops, and you're restless again, aren't you? You know, you I can hear it in your voice. You're restless again, you've got energy, you've got intelligence, got enthusiasm, curiosity. And so you're thinking to yourself, what what do I do with all of this, uh, all these gifts? And so and so you've you thought about going back to work, have you? So what what how did that how did that land on on your shoulders?

SPEAKER_02 17:42

So this opens up a sort of whole whole world of conversation, I guess, about about where I'm at. So I'm a year in and um coincident. Well, uh as a side note, I've just had some pretty major surgery um where I've had a bilateral knee replacement. So the project that I alluded to ended sort of three days before I went into hospital to have this surgery. I was on a timeline, I got it done. I've had this surgery surgery, I'm now six weeks post-op, and I'm feeling okay, and I'm on the right path to recovery, and I'm walking and riding a bike, and I've got a little way to go, but I'm doing okay. But I um I've been sitting around for a few months in parallel to this, just looking on. We have a we have a job site called Seek, and I thought to myself, if I'm gonna go back to a job, um, one thing I I want to be clear about is I'm not gonna go back to the same job I had or a job very similar to what I had, because I've moved away from that for reasons that haven't changed. Um, but if I did go back to work, what would I want to do? So I've been kind of browsing this catalogue of of opportunities, and and and this is a ridiculous coincidence, but umorough I I have my first day in what you might call a new job. And um congratulations. And this thank you. And and this is something I found by just browsing around, curious as to what might you know tick my boxes. And this particular um role is is similar to something I was doing when I was volunteering um whilst I was working at Day Force, actually. I had a I had a couple of hours a week where I was volunteering at the local high school, working with uh kids that are about to leave school, talking about career options and and and those types of things, and really like a an unofficial counsellor, if you like, to high school kids. And um, this this role that I'm starting tomorrow is actually a similar role where it's it's to do with um high school kids and helping them focus in on what they might want to do in their next steps after high school, be it um, you know, an apprenticeship, be it university, or most often go out into the workforce and what you might want to do. But there's an edge to this, which is they have some technology which is built on a virtual reality platform where the kids sit in a classroom and they put on a virtual reality headset and they visualize what it might look like to be a nurse or an electrician or or or whatever. And and and so when I looked at this, I thought to myself, well, this is this is kind of everything that I would want to do. It's it's it's giving back, it's it's altruistic, it's doing something that I know I enjoy, which I did when I was volunteering, working with with kids and helping them sort of advance in life to the next step. But it's also got a technology flavor which is relevant and and a bit different and and gives them a bit of an edge in in their story. So so the the bottom line is I've I'm I've I I was one of 50 applicants, and I was certainly the oldest. Um the the guy that's leaving the position right now is 23 years old. And um, and and during the interview process, I I know there was a lot of question marks over my uh longevity or uh sustainability or energy in this role, and and especially my technical skills, um, which I had to overcome. But but at the end of the day, there were 50 applicants, and uh I somehow got the job. And um I start my first day tomorrow, which is a bit of an induction, and then on Friday, I'm at a high school in uh a suburb of Sydney doing my first facilitation with a classroom full of kids.

SPEAKER_03 21:45

So that is check in with me next week and we'll see how it goes. Excited. Excited. And and it's so, I mean, Dean, I'm I'm guessing, you know, given this is an education situation, this is you know, this is nothing to do with money. This is entirely. To do with using your expertise, applying your passions, as you say, giving something back. And so this return to work for you is to do with purpose, isn't it? It's not to do with money.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

Absolutely. And I'm I'm so glad you reminded me because I I wanted to touch on that. That was kind of where I was going to start, is that we I've I've thought a little bit about this and it seems quite obvious, but to any listeners that are sort of um earlier in their career, when we go looking for a job, when I went looking for a job 20 years ago, I may have been you know at a midway point in my career, but but the number one um factor in me looking at that job and and being remotely interested in taking that job was money. And is it gonna pay more money than I'm currently on? And then the next question is, you know, have I got the skills to do it? And can I will I will I if I go for it, you think I might get it? But it was always driven around that that that money aspect. And um one of the things that if you make the choice to retire, typically the assumption is you can afford to retire. That may not always be the case. And and I'll come back to that point in a minute because I think that's an important point. Um, but in my case, you're absolutely right, Daz. I if if I if I wanted a job that paid me a lot of money, um, I don't think I would find a job better than the one I had, to be honest. Um this was more about okay, what do I want to do? And if I'm gonna do something other than sit on the sofa and watch YouTube videos all day, if I'm gonna give back to society and be a sort of valued member of the community, then then what where can I apply my skills for the most return on that investment? And and and that's kind of where I landed.

SPEAKER_03 24:00

Yeah, and it's so it's so interesting. One of our sort of subtext to doing this work together, Peter and I, um, which you know has been a project of mine being recently retired, is what can retirement teach teach us about work? And you know, I think we're and you sort of said it then, there was you you there's been a shift in the way you choose your work. And and and and I'm doing a bit of work with some folks at the moment who are who are looking for for the next opportunity. And it's it's so interesting. Obviously, everyone needs money, and you've got to have enough money to sustain yourself and your family, but put that to one side for a moment. It it is actually it is all about values, isn't it? And about um speaking to your passions, and that's what makes work sustainable and enjoyable, and how you grow as an individual. And one of the sort of subtexts of these these chats is I'm a real great advocate of saying that retirement is not the end of things, it's the start of things. Whereas you can you you have an opportunity to reinvent yourself or reapply yourself or you know make it make a difference in a way that perhaps wasn't quite what happened when you were working for somebody else. So it's so interesting to hear your story, Dean, and sort of you're confirming the fact that actually you've got a you've got a whole new chapter in front of you, and I hope you know it goes on for a very long time. And not only I'm sure you'd be happy, but you're going to influence the next generation. And you know, isn't that fantastic?

SPEAKER_02 25:26

No, absolutely. And and the other aspect of that is I'm I'm in a position for probably the first time in my life where I can I can go out and do something that I want to do without it necessarily being paying the most money. Um, and if it turns out that after a year or two I'm not enjoying it, then I'll I'll I'll certainly be able to say, well, at least I gave that a go. And I've you know, I've I've I've had a go at doing something a little bit different. Um, it didn't work out, but I haven't I certainly haven't wasted any time, put it that way.

SPEAKER_03 26:01

Absolutely. I mean, every you know, every intervention in every interaction you have, you know, from Friday onwards, which has a positive lands positively with one of the like younger generation, what a massively good use of your time, I would say, Dean. Exactly. Yeah. And were you surprised? Were you surprised, Dean, that you you wanted to go back to work? You know, had had you had you anticipated that when you left?

SPEAKER_02 26:26

I think I always I think I always left the door open for something like this. Um there's a there's a huge sort of lift in morale just to just to know that you can actually go out and apply for a job like this and get it, to be honest. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um yeah, it gave me a huge um lift when I was informed that I'd I'd got the job. I think I think I always thought a year ago, I'll see how this doing nothing business goes, and and um, you know, if I if I'm not enjoying myself, then uh what someone actually said to me at Day Force, one of the sales um representatives actually at Dalf uh Day Force on my last day said said, you know, I don't I don't know what you're worried about because if if you get bored, you can always go and get a job where someone's paying you money to do something. Go and go and work behind a bar in the local um social club or something like that where you can go and talk to people. And I thought, yeah, that's probably an interesting way of putting it. It's it's there's always there's always jobs out there that that will meet the needs of uh people and what what they're looking for. It's just I would I would say just don't rush into it and take your time and find something that fits the bill.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

Quite so. And and also, you know, what what is it that that that fits the bill, you know, that is interesting, isn't it? That is a that's a journey for people in their own right once you stop treating a job as the primary cause of uh sorry, uh source of your income. Um it it it allows for all sorts of possibilities, but I a lot of people I think come to retirement and not having thought that through, and so I think that's why it can be quite destabilizing. Sorry, Peter, I interrupted you.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

You were about to I was gonna I mean I know you're gonna be proud of me because I did do some research on this before that. Thank you. And I'm I'm quoting you take UK stats here uh from our from our government here, and and in the reason people return, it's a quite significant uh number of people who do return to work after entering a state of retirement in some way. But I mean the number one reason is is money. I mean, a lot of people decide that uh you know it's that there are there are financial challenges or whatever something changes, so you know we I think we have to accept that is the case, but you know, very close second is social contact and enjoyment um was is this is the next one with 46% of the people who retired and returned to work uh declaring that mental health improvement it's around 42 percent, and and giving back uh you know is in the 30 percent. Uh and obviously when people go back, they might mix that. You might say, I need a bit of money, but the social contact is great and it's helpful, it's good for my mental health, um, and I can give back. So it's a kind of a combination of things, but you know, it it's it's a bigger community than than I that perhaps I've I thought about in in the past.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

Isn't that amazing, Pete? As you were reading that out, I think I'm ticking every one of those boxes. It's yes, with what I've just described, right? And the um that I just want to, if I may, just go back to the money thing quickly because it's you know it's an important topic for anyone, but um it's it's interesting. I was I was out and about about a couple of months ago, I think it was, and and I'd met someone new in my community, and they said, What do you do? You know, usual question, what do you do for a living? And it's it's a difficult question to answer when you're in my position because you you you're kind of retired, but you don't know if you are retired or if you're going to be retired forever or what. So I I say, Well, I'm I'm currently I consider myself to be retired, but I might go back to work at some point. And and and the question came back, you're not old enough to retire. Can you can you actually can you afford to retire? And and that really got me thinking because I I everyone's got a number, right? But but the big issue is you don't know how long you're gonna live for. That's that's the that's the more serious question. Um yeah, if I live for the next 10 years, I can afford to retire. What if I what if I live for another 50 years? Well, maybe not. And and the the the serious question is you know, how how long can you afford to live for? So so even just uh amongst all those other things that you mentioned there, Peter, in that list, um, you know, contact and community and all that kind of stuff, the money thing, it doesn't matter how much money it is, if you've got a little bit of money coming in, um that's that can be quite a stress point for anyone that's retired, is is every time you go out and buy a loaf of bread or or you buy a beer for your mates at the pub, that's coming out of your savings. Now, if you've got it doesn't matter how how much money you're being paid, but if you've got some money coming in, that can that can be a big stress reliever for somebody, for anyone that's in a position where they they consider themselves to be retired.

SPEAKER_03 31:22

Yeah, I actually I think this is a topic, Peter, we should cover because it's come up a couple of times, and I and I think it's very well said, uh Dean. And it's it's interesting that question, just going back to what you said about what do you, you know, what do you do? And it's a difficult question to answer. Actually, I've found it quite difficult for years. So I for years now, when people ask me that, you know, at a party or something like that, I say I'm a poet. And part of it's being a bit devilish, part of it is because I do write a bit, and part of it's because I like to see people run away from me at that point. And now and now you say you're a podcaster, right? You are there we go. Yeah, I think so. Dean, this is this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing your journey. I I think you know it certainly resonates with me, and and I I'm sure it will with with our listeners as well. And uh, I think you've given us some other areas to go off and think about. Um, we actually do have a we do have a uh someone coming on uh in a couple of weeks' time, I think, Peter, to talk about the fact that they were immensely unprepared, even though they planned, which is really interesting. And I think you've this other this other thought about a small bit of income has a psychological sort of safety blanket uh associated with it, which you know was in was important to you, or you feel it might be important to you, and I'm sure it will be to other people. So thank you, Dean. Um, been really lovely to catch up with you again, and thanks for sharing all your insights.

SPEAKER_02 32:40

I've thoroughly enjoyed it, and I hope it's uh of value to your listeners. But uh thank you for having me. It's been great.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

Well definitely is. Thanks a lot, Dean. Yeah, thanks.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

You have been listening to Walking Into Retirement, an unusual podcast about finding purpose, meaning, and balance after a busy working life with David Ailing Smith and Peter Taylor. Find out more at www.walking into retirement.com. And why not share your own retirement stories with the hosts?