#9 - Long Tail - When retirement is a gradual process over years

Exploring, with their guest, Dave Achtemichuk, the long glide path to the point of actual retirement.

Peter shares some more statistics and DAS compliments his old boss on his golf handicap.

But more importantly the conversation explores the idea that it doesn't have to be a hard stop at the 'R' point (or cliff edge) but it can be instead a gradual reduction in the work side of the work/life balance that offers opportunity.

A model that our guest recommends.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:19

Walking into retirement, an unusual podcast about finding purpose, meaning, and balance after a busy working life with David Ailing Smith and Peter Taylor. Exploring the emotional, psychological, and practical realities of modern retirement through a series of reflective conversations being undertaken whilst working scenic groups across the UK.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

Hello, Naz. Peter, hello. How how are you today? I'm very good. I'm very good. And I've been um I've been looking up some statistics. I'd like to share some statistics. Um so you know, obviously, we're talking about this this whole subject of retirement, uh, eldorescence. Um a couple of stats, yes, you're welcome. Uh a couple of stats which, you know, I kind of opened my mind about this. Is that um because we're gonna talk today, we've got another guest, and we're gonna talk about the kind of the sort of long glide past or long lead time into retirement, uh progressing through adorescence. We are, but did you know, Daz? Did you know that in the UK, uh one in 28 people right now are within three years of the retirement age. That's about 2.4 million people are in that process, if you like, you know, might we might term as that kind of pre-retirement activity, um, which is 3.51% of the UK population. Uh and that just I know whenever I see these sort of statistics, it'd always go, oh wow, that's a lot of people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

Well, that's you know, well, I suppose that's the baby boomer bubble coming through, isn't it? But that is a huge number. And and actually, so what proportion of that of that population listen to the podcast, Peter, would you say?

SPEAKER_03 2:03

I don't think we can go that low, Dads, at this point in time. But well, it does say that uh we should have we should have at least two million listeners, I feel. And it isn't it hasn't happened quite yet.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

I and I like it. Aim high, let's say high. That's an extraordinary number. And it well, it shows in this country for sure, and I it'd be interesting if it's true in other countries whether that demographic uh bubble is is the same. But no, I think I think this is a topic that, as we said before, like death and taxes will affect most people, and uh, and we think it needs a bit more conversation and a light shed on it, don't we?

SPEAKER_03 2:37

Absolutely. So don't I mean would you like? I mean, I'm just I'm I'm allowing you to pull rank on this one because uh the our guest uh he he was my boss's boss, but he was your boss uh directly. So maybe you have the rights to actually do the introduction.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

Thank you, Peter. Well, Dave, uh welcome to Walking Into Retirement. Thank you so much for joining us today. Uh pleasure to be here, Chance. And and Peter's right. I mean, I I I've worked for you in the past. I think you've uh facilitated employment for me in the past, Dave. I've you know visited with you. People can tell from your accent. I think you're Canadian, visited with you and your lovely family many years ago. We were just talking off camera there, probably about 20 years ago. So uh it's been a long time, Dave. And it's been a it's been a very uh nice, mutually beneficial, hopefully mutually beneficial friendship over the years.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

It has been, and uh time's gone by too fast, and uh good to catch up with both of you and over the last few weeks listening to your podcast. And uh uh you're you're absolutely right, Daz. Uh I think I was probably guilty of uh uh get getting you back into uh a role there uh a while back.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

Yeah, no, we're very grateful uh to you for that. I I enjoyed it immensely. So um, you know, thanks again. And and Dave, I think today we're gonna talk about the fact that uh I suspect, although I don't know this, I suspect you're much younger than uh Peter and I, but uh my I'm I've been aware of the fact that you you've been on this Peter as Peter described it, this slow glide path. So I think you've you've sort of slowly come away from work and and have been working in a more part-time basis. But um would should we start there, Peter?

SPEAKER_03 4:17

Should we I mean just yeah, no, yes, yeah, yeah, Dave, please. Yeah, can't you just explain your general situation and and then we'll we'll get into it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

Sure, yeah, happy to. Um so I guess I'd just paint a picture of uh it's been about 42 years now of so I'm not sure that much younger, uh, of uh working in technology and and related fields. Um, you know, about half of that has been in consulting, uh, both at the start and and now at the end of my career. And then uh uh different stints at a couple of software companies, a couple of banks where I worked in technology. But it's been about seven years ago now that uh I came back from a role in Boston to Canada and really started my own uh business uh in consulting. It was a part-time uh business. Really hadn't planned it in advance. And uh that really started this uh glide path, if you will, into uh retirement and uh fortunate enough to find the right roles and being able to work uh part-time during the last period of period uh seven years.

SPEAKER_03 5:26

You're you're almost you're almost there, I believe, Dave.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Yes, uh so uh I guess uh over the seven years I've had different roles where it's been four hours a week up to 40 hours a week, and uh you know, four different clients uh involved during that period of time. The one particular client I've been at largely for the last three years, uh my contract there ends at the end of June. So uh really coming up to uh um much more free summer uh and planning to uh enjoy it. Oh, excellent, excellent.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

I I remember, Dave, that when we worked together, you had an extremely low golf handicap, which I suspect you still do. So how are you gonna bring that down? Do you have plans for what uh what a free summer means for uh for you, Dave?

SPEAKER_01 6:15

Yeah, so it's probably not quite that low at the moment. Uh uh, but yes, that's my plan is to hopefully bring the golf handicap down and uh also enjoy time with the family. Um, you know, going to and from Toronto to uh visit my daughter and her family and the grandkids and out to uh out to the west coast uh to see my son. Uh so allowing time for travel as well as uh golf and enjoying uh the lake uh where we where we live.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

Interesting, I don't know whether you heard our last walking podcast day, but we were talking about the joys of retirement, and I think I was part of it was a personal reflection for me because I've retired, Peter hasn't yet, and I think top of my list was the fact that retirement facilitates that time that you can get to spend as you wish. And um, you know, I think the three of us actually are very family-oriented, and so that was such a blessing and a gift to be able to spend time with family, which during busy careers maybe hadn't been um, you know, hadn't been possible as much as perhaps we would have all liked. And so I'm intrigued, Dave, as you sort of, as you've as you've slowed down, I don't want to say slow down, that's wrong, sorry, as you've worked less hours, has it been that pull of spending time with the family that's caused you to work less hours? I'm I'm interested, you know, you're you're our sort of uh our case study of someone that's had this long tail. Um, so why did you do that? What was the motivation, Dave? And I know I'm sort of I was leading the witness a bit there by saying it's about time, but uh do you want to talk us through your sort of your that that journey for you?

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Yeah, uh certainly it as I you know mentioned earlier, it was not something that I'd necessarily had planned, uh, but coming off of uh the last full-time role uh back to Canada, the uh company I worked with uh in the US at the time had asked me to stay on for about 12 hours a week uh for eight-month period uh when uh I finished up. And that just uh got the whole ball rolling of uh, oh, well, there is this other option here of rather than uh stopping entirely, of uh continuing to you know find interesting things to do and adding value on a professional side of things. And uh so that kind of got me into it. Um the uh and as I got into it, I guess uh I found I really enjoyed it in terms of finding that right balance of uh having a somewhat lower pace, uh lower stress, uh, but at the same time finding some interesting projects to work on, uh, feeling really valued by those uh clients, uh to you know, hopefully uh provide some uh wisdom over the course uh and experience uh from my working career.

SPEAKER_02 9:09

It's so interesting using the phrase they're added value and feeling valued. It feels like for many of us that's a big motivation, it's a big plus point for being at work, which of course, when you're not at work, you have the opportunity to add value or feel valued from somewhere else, which is I think a bit of a quest for many of us. And you talked about balance as well. So have you thought, Dave, about where that added value and that feeling of being valued comes from now or or later in June? Um, have you given that much thought yet?

SPEAKER_01 9:42

I you know, I don't think I've given it a whole lot of thought. I think uh, you know, in listening to uh some of uh the past uh podcasts that uh uh where both of you have spoken on. I know you've recently gone through some of that. I think I'll experience uh that more so post-June. Uh for the time being, it'll be you know a little more golf this year compared to the last couple of summers. Uh, it'll be you know more time for travel. We have a trip planned in uh September. And uh uh just trying to find uh you know what else is going to uh fill the fill the time.

SPEAKER_03 10:19

Yeah. So if so if I could ask a question, because I think it's you know, we've talked before, Dad, you and I, about this, you know, if we if we look at the traditional, if you like, approach to retirement of our grandparents, and and before they you know, it was what you might call a cliff etched retirement, wasn't it? You got to a certain age, end of, you know, there was no control for most people, there was no choice, literally, but it was in the mindset that that was gonna happen, and and some you know had good retirements, and I can imagine some people struggled, etc. But if we think, you know, Dave, if we think about this this long sort of glide path into a healthy retirement, I mean I I guess the question for a lot of people is gonna be, you know, how do you reduce work without the points we've already talked about on previous podcasts, how without losing purpose, without losing that identity? And I'm sure income protection is part of it as well. But you know, I'd rather focus on the purpose and the identity, I think, for this conversation. Do you do have any thoughts around that?

SPEAKER_01 11:19

Yes, you know, I think I was quite fortunate in just having the right opportunities present themselves. So I mentioned earlier uh, you know, being able to start in a part-time role. And then once I was back in Canada, I three, four months later, I received a call from a prior colleague of mine about another potential opportunity uh to help out uh a software company, um, which uh as you and I both know quite well. Uh and you know, so that presented another opportunity where I was just able to come in for you know a relatively short amount, a number of months uh on a specific piece of interesting work and and help out and provide that value. So I think a big part of the being able to make this uh longer glide path work for me has just been fortunate to come upon the right opportunities that allow for a part-time role, uh, yet at the same time uh be very interesting work uh or an interesting project uh to help out on.

unknown 12:29

Right.

SPEAKER_03 12:29

So reduced hours hours and protection of your purpose and identity, yeah, it's kind of the perfect complex.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

Yeah, I mean, it does it does sort of feel ideal, really, Dave. And I appreciate this is your path. And we've often said, you know, everyone's relationship with this stage of their lives or elder essence, as we're calling it, you know, to allow for it to be a bit of a process rather than a binary event, it's different. But would you you know at the moment, Dave, recommend this? I mean, do you think this is a good model to slowly stop? I mean, it certainly sounds perfect, really. You know, you you you slowly adapt to having more time to spend on the things you want to do rather than your work-related activities. Is this uh is this um an example that you would recommend to others, Dave?

SPEAKER_01 13:12

I think I would. I I'd certainly uh recommend that others be open to this type of transition so so you don't experience the cliff that you talked about. Um I'd certainly found it uh to be rewarding and and allowed uh you know that transition. And you know, perhaps it just took me longer to uh to to come to terms with this retirement in Eldorescence, and this was a great way to make that happen. Um and and during that period of time, you know, even though you target uh some very part-time hours, uh, you know, you still uh wrestle with weeks of you know where it might be up to full time for for some period of time and you go through the spikes. But overall, um, I definitely would recommend it and and uh to others to be open to this and uh hopefully find the right opportunity to make it happen for them.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Well then you said balance as well, didn't you earlier, which I think was a really nice way of, you know, this balance works for you and and for Karen, I guess. And and so that feels like an important message, really, that I think we all seek balance, don't we in our life? When we're at work, we try and seek balance by spending more time, you know, trying to make more time for our hobbies and our friends and families. And I'm wondering, you know, what you've done, you've made more time for your work, haven't you, as you've approached your time, which seems like a really good way to do it.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

Yeah, so work has taken less time, so I'm able to uh uh focus some time elsewhere around the around the yard and uh working outside or or playing golf or or travel or visiting the family, as I mentioned earlier. Um and in the case of uh being in Canada, my work hours tended to rise up in the winter time because perhaps I had less of that to do.

SPEAKER_02 15:03

Of course, of course. But I I always remember when we visited with you, it wasn't in the winter, but you you and I have worked for Canadian Company previously. Canadians have this, you you embrace the winter, don't you? You don't hibernate, you just tend to just slap on the skis or the skates and just get out there because otherwise you'd become presumably hermits for six months of the year.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

Well, exactly. You have to uh uh to enjoy enjoy where you are and make the most of it.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:33

And so you must be happy, Daz. You've had someone else use the word adorescence. So just merge in that for history.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

I don't know how it qualifies to get in the Oxford English dictionary, but I'm using it all the time I can. Thank you, Dave. You've just used it, you've used the piece. There's three of us are referring to it. So there we go. Maybe, maybe one day. And and Dave, you alluded to something there that Peter and I we talk about periodically, which of course, you know, you're you know, you're you're you're entering a phase where you won't be doing paid work uh in the same way as you've done in the past. But of course, that means you'll be spending more time at home with Karen. Um Peter and I wondered how we, you know, we one of our guests, I think we were thinking of doing a couples session because of course, you know, our partners actually have to go through a transformation as well, don't they, to get used to having us around the place. And so uh, and I'm I'm sure in the in the ideal world that our partners look forward to having us around. But I know in the real world they have their own lives and their own passions, their own timetables. And so have you managed to sort of negotiate this with Karen Dave? And don't ask us if you don't want to, you know, in a way that works for both of you.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

I I think we have, and uh certainly because of the last number of years, we've had uh time to kind of uh adjust how things will work around the house uh with uh both of us being around. And of course, COVID kind of had me around the house even when I was working. Uh so that was uh the change uh um just on its own. But uh yeah, I think we're looking forward to it. Uh I'm looking forward to it, and we'll see uh you know how this goes forward.

SPEAKER_03 17:10

Can we can we spinish around the other way? Because we talked about all the positive things, that's fantastic. But there are you know, what are the risks of not planning or having this opportunity of a kind of a slow window, a long light path into retirement? But it strikes me that the you know it it it we're back to that kind of cliff edge, that abruptness, and that reflect you know on people I've known. I think it can really impact people, I think, if they if they don't plan for it. So, you know, both you know, Daz and Dave, I mean, what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 17:41

I think the you know, to the to that point earlier, I think a quick shutdown, at least in hindsight, in my mind, uh, can be more challenging to try and figure out uh what comes next and and how do you uh uh find the right things of interest that you want to keep doing and it can just uh you know create the bit of this uh short, hopefully short-term void of of trying to figure that out. So uh I think that's that's one aspect of it. Um, you know, there was uh uh there was a financial investment firm in Canada back in the 80s and 90s that did a uh an advertisement campaign called Freedom 55. And I think it uh kind of set a bit of a mindset for people to you know get to retirement as early as they as they can. And um uh I I think you know you to your question earlier, Peter, uh uh, you know, would I recommend this to people uh uh in terms of the longer transition? I think I I think I would rather than the than the cliff.

SPEAKER_03 18:48

Yeah, because yeah, Dave, Dad, sorry, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

Well, I was just just to answer your question as Dave has done. I you know, we we have had a speaker that had an involuntary retirement through a redundancy situation, which was a you know, it's sort of the classic brutal cliff where it's it's unexpected rather than sort of expected and then ends. And I I I think those sudden endings can look like bereavement, I think, for people, because you know, there's this holding alive, there's a loss in there's a loss of you know, your your perhaps that persona you had at work. And so I I think if it's not planned, I think there's a period to go through of adjustment. Um for me personally, you know, there was planning involved, and I stepped down and through, you know, it was a shorter glide path than yours day, but I went down to a day a week for six months. Um partially as you've described it, Dave, I felt I had some value to add still, and partially it was self-serving in the sense that I wanted to adjust my life and my routines to not working full-time and recognize that I wouldn't appreciate doing that while I've got some structure associated with work as I go through that that transformation. So I I think it is harder for big people competer with the drop-off. Um we we actually do have a speaker coming up next who did plan for their retirement but were shocked by the emotional realities of it. And I think that's the the point we often talk about on this podcast, isn't it? That there's a psychological impact that I'm actually not sure anyone knows what that's going to be like until you're there. And so, Dave, maybe we'll have you back to see how you see how you're doing at the end of the year, because I think some of the realities of actually not uh working after a lifetime of very, very busy work, uh, I think can sometimes hit in unexpected ways. That may just be me, but I suspect it's other people as well.

SPEAKER_03 20:44

Oh, it is. I mean, it's there's I mean, there's another phenomenon which isn't you know it's known as the retirement bounce, and it's uh you know, people retire, and then within 12 to 18 months they've gone back to some form of work. And and and for different reasons, you know, some of it can be financial reality of what living in on a retirement, you know, financial plan or budget is, but a lot more of it is um, you know, I I did this too hard, I did this too harsh, and I, you know, I I need to you know move in a more controlled way, and therefore moving into, you know, often you know a consultancy or part-time or inter-in-time role can can help navigate that though that first period um in a in a better way.

SPEAKER_02 21:26

Yes, and we I mean our last speaker, our last guest actually had that situation, and they went back for um uh partially altruistic reasons, though, isn't it? About wanting to give back and you know, wanting to give something to the community uh uh and use their uh the skills they've acquired during work to, you know, for for a for a greater good. So I think that was a motivation, but that was a that was a bounce situation. Our last um, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_03 21:52

Yes, yeah, it was. But I think the things I've heard, I mean it's you know, it is about I think it's about taking control yourself as as best you can. I mean, yes think you know both of you have reduced your hours you know reduced your days is is another one I know it that's a a way of managing it if if you're still you know have full-time days then you can reduce the number of days that you do. I think you know shifting roles is another one it's it allows you to de-stress perhaps from the your your full-time hard in even in taking what you might term as a more junior role for a period of time. Or you know uh kind of as you've done uh Dave is move out you into kind of a more consultative role where you become uh to a to a greater degree in more in control of your own time management and your own investment in still working so I think there's uh I know it does I mean you're the one with lists but I thought I'd come up with a list there.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

Yeah I'm impressed Peter well done uh Dave would you would you contemplate going to do work again? I I I don't necessarily mean the consultancy work that you've enjoyed over the last few years but you know other work work in the community or um volunteering I have have you thought whether that might be something that would appeal to you in due course?

SPEAKER_01 23:04

I you know I I haven't thought a whole lot about it. I I certainly uh would be open to you know all those things that you'd mentioned Daz um and I think you know I'm first step is I'm looking forward to enjoying the summer months here. And then you know come the fall and and next winter you know I'm sure I'll give more thought to you know what other either volunteer roles or uh other things that may come up uh hobby-wise uh or other uh to keep myself uh occupied and interested um uh and yeah yeah I I would given the nature of the of the work part-time work that I've had um you know it's not that I'd ever say never to a uh a very part-time uh advisory type role as well yeah or or you know there's always there's always the assistant pro down the local golf club I've heard the tips are quite good I have a long way to go before that and then sort of reflecting on your journey Dave as you stepped back from that corporate world into you know working for yourself and then backed off from your hours did were you aware over that period?

SPEAKER_02 24:25

I mean it's been a it has been a sort of a gradual uh process as you described it had you thought differently about yourself over that period I mean have you did you ever reflect about you know any of the things that you might have heard us talk about on other uh podcasts about you know about that you know that lack of structure or the sort of lack of um control I suppose you you you've created a a new sort of ecosystem for yourself where you probably were able to generate all of this off the back of your business. But I'm just I'm interested whether you felt different differently about yourself as you morphed into this new uh sort of consultative role rather than the the corporate leader role that you'd had for so many years.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

I think you know I think it what I was really able to uh enjoy and bring to the forefront in the last number of years is just to try and use uh prior experience uh in certain projects to bring the value that I talked about and as well um provide the advice to the leaders that I was working with to really uh support them and uh make them successful. So it became you know less less about uh me being the leader and more about uh me providing the right support and value to to help them succeed and so that brought itself that brought its own uh enjoyment uh right from just that experience and I I can imagine that and I can imagine that sort of coaching or mentoring type relationship you're using that part of your brain that you know had developed and that experience that you've gained all over the years and so I can see how that would tick that particular box in terms of uh purpose and feeling valued. And I wonder how I mean obviously it's hypothetical but you know had you not done that Dave you know it it feels like that would have been missing from your life the fact that you went on to do that work it it it appears as though you've solved that particular conundrum that some folks have about you know using their the the skills they've gained over a lifetime of work positively after they stop full-time work you solved that so without that it feels like your your your your elder essence would would have been very different for you I would suggest I I I think you're right and I don't know that uh it was uh the grand plan well it wasn't the grand plan on grand plan on my part uh uh you know it really was triggered initially from uh my wife Karen uh uh suggesting that I really take that part-time role coming back into Canada from our my prior employer so uh that really started the ball rolling perhaps uh you know she knew uh what I needed better than I did at the time and it's worked out really well yeah wives have that knack don't they um yeah I mean we've talked about sort of just being reflective and giving advice so but you know how would you advise your younger self David I mean it sounds like you know you're a a great case study of someone that's got this sorted you've enjoyed your working life as far as I remember you're enjoying this part-time period and I'm sure you'll continue to enjoy your your adolescence phase when you're not doing paid work but you you know there's several it it it felt like there were several things that happened for you there that weren't particularly planned but they worked out well for you.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

Any advice you know back to your younger self perhaps in terms of how you would have planned for this I mean it doesn't sound as though you would have changed a thing from what you said but any advice that you would have offered your younger self about this journey?

SPEAKER_03 28:14

I I just think uh be open to various options as you make your own path to uh retirement uh uh or or or elder essence in this case and be open to different types of transition um I certainly would recommend the the one that I've been on in in hindsight uh but I think there are different ways of going about it uh you know rather than the uh sharp uh cliff uh that we had referred to earlier um so that's probably the the number one piece I'd uh advise I'd give yeah that's good I mean I think uh you know if we talk we we mentioned Glyde Pass a few times but it's uh you know pilots don't uh don't decide where they're gonna land or how they're gonna land just as they arrive at the airport and it's a it's a long time before that they start that process of uh heading into the airport and landing safely so it is you know I think for retirement it's it's similar I think the encouragement for people is very much like you know you'll be encouraged if you have a financial advisor is to start thinking quite early about you know what it what the what the end of the retirement uh you know trip looks like if you like but you know consider it also for that purpose that identity the the work focus etc and and plan accordingly yes and I'm really enjoying the fact uh Peter just reflecting on how our last walk was a positive experience apart from you you know getting up the hill but you know what I mean the conversation was very positive in terms of the uh the joys of retirement and it's it's so nice to hear Dave that you've you know you enjoyed your transition from full-time work to part-time work and so it feels like we we we spend a fair bit of time on this podcast talking about some of the unexpected challenges people face but it's so nice to have a couple of episodes where we um we appreciate the positive things about retirement which I think superficially everyone knows about but so for so many people that is not their reality so thanks for sharing your story Dave that's been very heartwarming to hear how well you're doing and uh you know looking forward to hearing about that golf handicap coming down.

SPEAKER_01 30:16

Yeah thank you both and uh I may I may be calling uh you das to get some advice as to what to do for myself post June.

SPEAKER_03 30:26

I'm always here my my charges have gone up quite a bit now actually Dave thank you very much for your time and and Dad you you you you reflected on that walk up the hill and I I did share with you that you know tough as that was that some crazy people attempted to do that 10 times in 24 hours that uh mountain climb which is just crazy but everybody does something different in it with their spare time don't they? Yeah but I'm looking forward to our flat walk on the Oxford canal um next week Peter absolutely and I I've talked to you before about this podcast you don't know what sequence they're going to be published in so stop talking about things that have or haven't happened yet it's like a time machine.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Oh okay well done you're such a pro Peter I know Dave thank you very much for your time and um thank you for sharing yeah with our listeners thank you bye bye you have been listening to Walking into Retirement an unusual podcast about finding purpose meaning and balance after a busy working life with David Ailing Smith and Peter Taylor find out more at www dot walking into retirement dot com and why not share your own retirement stories with the hosts