#11 - Transition - Embracing opportunity and taking control

Three years after leaving corporate life, this episode reflects on the journey our guest, David, made taking back control and embracing the opportunity for continuous growth. 

It explores the power of defining how you want to feel rather than simply what you want to do, and how a simple coffee with a trusted friend (in this case DAS) can provide the perspective needed during times of change. 

The conversation concludes with the move into executive coaching, a role that brings together both personal freedom and lifelong learning.

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:19

Walking into retirement, an unusual podcast about finding purpose, meaning, and balance after a busy working life with David Ailing Smith and Peter Taylor. Exploring the emotional, psychological, and practical realities of modern retirement through a series of reflective conversations undertaken whilst walking scenic routes across the UK.

SPEAKER_04 0:42

Hello, Peter, how are you? Have you have you recovered from your um saunter down the Thames?

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Yes, yes. I I've done that. So yeah, that was that was a good one. Thank you very much. And again, I must remind you of the sequencing of these podcasts. You keep referring to things that are in future past temps or whatever. But I I learned something this week that's that that is interesting. So actually, I was watching something and they referred. So we all know about the midlife crisis, yeah. That's a very famous term, and we've all probably been through it in some way, shape, or form. I certainly bought a sports car at one point in my life. Um, but there was um there was there were some young people talking about the um the you know quarter life crisis that you know young people go through. But I looked it up, and there is there is an accepted term which is three-quarter life crisis, which is what I am currently going through. So I know elder essence is a great term, but there is another one out there which is quarter life crisis, which is that whole pro that point in time of where you kind of you know we have to rethink and re-readjust or readjust all of that, and I think it's gonna be a great topic for a future podcast, but yeah, not for today, because we've got a very interesting guest today, haven't we?

SPEAKER_04 1:52

No, we have. Well, so uh, but it's not called elder essence. I still think that's the word. I think that's the word that that is going to be adopted later.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

I'm not, I'm just saying that this this I don't know, it's three-quarter life crisis, kind of it kind of stuck home with me, really. Yeah, I've got a lot of other stuff behind that, so we we'll come to that.

SPEAKER_04 2:10

All right, very good. But as you say, this is uh the episode today is a visitor day, and very much looking forward to talking with a colleague and friend of ours. And in the past, we've covered various scenarios from people who have left work, gone back to work, uh enjoyed leaving work, not enjoyed leaving work. And so I think we've got a different flavor on that again today. So perhaps with that introduction, welcome, David.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Thank you, Daz. Uh good to hear from you and you too as well, Peter.

SPEAKER_04 2:39

Yeah, but very, very pleased to have you on, David, and and perhaps there's a little bit of positioning. You know, you um you in the past have been an HR professional. Um, I mean, you're still professional, but you you have you have retired now, and so fascinated to get the perspective, your perspective on your retirement from someone that's sort of watched lots of people go through this over the years, David. So very much looking forward to this conversation.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

I mean, it's it's been an interesting time. So I I prefer to say that I actually left corporate life three years ago. And um, because for me, I always felt that um the retirement word was was not what I was going to focus on. It was very much about I wanted to do something different, right? I wanted to move away from you know the corporate life, which I'd been in for about 30, 35 years, and you know, uh had thought long and hard about it, but of obviously when it comes and when it arrives, it's a very different kind of feeling.

SPEAKER_04 3:43

Yeah, no, I wanted to go there with you because you know, you and I have you know had periodic coffees, haven't we, over the years, David? You know, we live relatively close to each other, and I do remember, you know, it just sort of recognizing that you were very much looking forward to um stopping your the corporate side of your life, spending more time with your wife. You've got lots of hobbies, uh lots of parts of the world you you know you wanted to travel to. And you know, you from my perspective, you you had it sorted. You know, you had a plan and you were going to act on the plan. But I you know, I know from talking to you subsequently that it actually didn't quite turn out that way, just perhaps from an emotional or realization point of view. So I'd love to hear you talk a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

Well, that's that's the essence of that. Yeah, I mean changes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Well, it does, Peter. You know, that's that that's very true. And you know, I think it's right to say that um it it all kind of the emotional start of the uh started about 12 months before I kind of left corporate life, where we started having what many people have probably have spoken about already, the need to be confident that we would have money going forward. And you know, the the interesting part of that process for me was this, which was uh of the three financial advisors we've spoken to, they all had the same premise, which was probably, David, you're gonna die before your wife. Right. And that was the analysis to a point when the third one started talking about it. I did ask him, did he have a date in mind um of when that was gonna happen so we could be really prepared for it? Uh so of course that starts a very different kind of mindset uh to the process of um you know leaving an organization and and and being more reliant on other kind of ways of of money coming into the household, if you like. But you're right, look, you know, I've coached a large number of people and I've talked to a large number of people before leaving. I've read a couple of books. So I was about nine to 12 months out from retirement when I was already planning it. Uh, but I have to say, you know, the the weekend after I left the organization, I started to have those kind of strange emotional kind of reactions, which is, you know, on Friday afternoon I was a relatively important person, relative being the operative word. Yes. And then on Monday, no, no one wanted to email me, or no one wanted my advice or counsel, and no one wanted to talk to me at that stage. And that was the first realization, I think, of that loss of something.

SPEAKER_04 6:29

Yeah. I think that's when I got the call, wasn't it, David? It was, it was.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

I need a coffee. I need a coffee with somebody.

SPEAKER_04 6:37

Yes. I mean, just just pausing there for a moment, and and that is such an interesting um observation, and we've we've heard it in different ways. I've certainly experienced that. And Peter, you know, you you've newly stopped, haven't you? So can you relate to that? Does that does that how was that how that felt for you a couple of weeks ago?

SPEAKER_02 6:53

Yeah, it does. It's it is that kind of I mean I can't give me so David, you referred to it's quite a you know, again, for you quite a long lead time into this, this, but it still impacted you when it when you reached that point. And I think for me, it's not you know, a shorter period of time, but you know, I knew what was coming, you know, three months or probably you know, probably six months ago, really, what was what was going to happen and where I would be. But yes, it does it, you know, I saw that slow decline of like I became um unimportant and irrelevant as the organization I worked for moved on. It was it was nice they were still paying me, but the reality is, you know, in the early days it was a lot of work to hand the reins over to someone else and restructure, help restructure. But yeah, like you say, David, like suddenly like there were no emails and there were no things in the diary that were me making things happen. So it's a very, very strange time, very strange point of transition.

SPEAKER_04 7:46

If if it helps either of you, you're both still important to me. I don't know whether that makes any difference whatsoever. Well, thank you, Dad. There we go.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Oh, yeah, that's very good of you, Dave.

SPEAKER_04 7:56

And and David, before perhaps we go into you know how you navigated those early weeks and months, you know, we have talked about that a little bit uh previously. What would could you tell us what you were looking forward to? So, you know, what did that retirement or elder essence, as I'm trying to describe now, what what what did that mean to you, you know, other than an early death? I can we what were you?

SPEAKER_01 8:18

Yes, that's right. What were you looking forward to? Yes, that's right.

SPEAKER_04 8:23

What were you looking forward to, David?

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Yeah, look, I I think for me, um, because of that leading time, I had done quite a bit of thinking about what I wanted to do and how I wanted things to be, which when I reflected on it in the in the end, helped me through that initial stage. And that was I wanted I wanted to stay in control of what I did. Whatever I did next, I wanted to be in control because you know what? I've never met anybody in corporate life who is in control, really, of their day-to-day work. Um, and it and if if I've missed them, I missed out on meeting somebody important. But I think the reality is, regardless of what position you're in, there is always that need to be uh doing things for other people in the timescale they are deciding and working with the people that in some cases you've got little choice but to do so. So for me, it was very much about uh the future was about how do I stay in control and do things different things than I'd been doing for the last 30 years. And that was a big driver for me.

SPEAKER_04 9:32

And did you did you have a like a bucket list of things you wanted to try, or did you have sort of ongoing um passions you wanted to exercise? I mean, I remember David, you you know, you you historically have been a very keen cyclist, haven't you? You know, you you've traveled with your with your cycling, haven't you?

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Yeah, that's right. I mean, keeping fit and doing things like that was always going to be, you know, very much on top of my agenda. And and you know, luckily that's kind of continued. Um and and basically what I always felt is that by the end of my career, um, I was known as the expert, not to me by the way, but but to other people. You're the expert. So, in terms of what you were able to learn and do differently, and it was it was starting to become limited. So, whatever I was gonna do, I was gonna throw myself into learning, you know, go back to that kind of approach of being really curious and uh in environments where it didn't matter that much as it used to when you're in corporate life, if you like. So I I I used to be keen on photography many years ago, and I was convinced that that was something I wanted to do, which I've now um done and spent a lot of time with. Uh, golf is something that I never had much time to do. So I wanted to improve um the way that I played. And probably more important, the most important part for me was that I decided that I would qualify and become uh a formal executive coach, if you like. That is coaching leaders who end up kind of in a position where they're going through transition, they need to move on, and they they want that kind of external voice to kind of support them going through that. So in each of those areas, I knew there were kind of avenues that I wanted to kind of explore and go down. And I committed myself to each of those three by going on courses, being part of learning kind of groups, um, and throw being able to have the time to throw myself into it.

SPEAKER_04 11:37

Well, I mean, that sounds like you've been busy. It sounds like you've sort of classically done that thing that we've often spoken about on this podcast that you know you've partially reinvented yourself and and and pushed pushed boundaries in a way that you weren't able to do at work. So that still sounds like a very successful transition, David. But I I know from talking to you that you know going back to those early weeks, it it didn't like that to you as I recall. Could could you talk to us a little bit about that? I remember you telling me how sort of discombobulated you were about the whole having this time available to you.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Absolutely, you know, and you know, regardless of the fact I had those uh elements in my mind that I wanted to progress, and there were no restrictions on me moving forward with any of that, those activities except for myself, right? And it, you know, it does come back to the emotional element of purpose, you know. So what's my purpose? You know, who am I? And and I'd really do feel that the work I had done previously had allowed me to relink into that and kind of move on. But I also used to find things that simple, you know, simple, symbolic things. Um when I was when I was in corporate life, like most people, particularly after COVID, and we had kind of moved to work more and more from home, I spent a lot of time on back-to-back meetings. I I covered Australia through uh through the day to India to Europe, and then my bosses were in America, not unlike a lot of people. And I used to find myself running between meetings to to make tea so I could kind of jump on the next call a bit refreshed. And after I left corporate life, I remember one day down in the kitchen, I was running from the kettle to the fridge to get the milk, to the yeah, to to the cupboard to get the tea bag. And my wife said to me, Why are you rushing? Why are you rushing? But I I I was still in that kind of mindset of I've got to get the cup of tea as quickly as possible because I'm sure there's gonna be a call I need to attend. And there's those little symbolic kind of actions that I was still living through as a kind of um as a reminder, if you like, of of not wanting to let go to the things that I had to do for many years.

SPEAKER_03 13:58

Yeah, that's so interesting. I'm gonna ask you, yeah. I was gonna ask you, Peter, whether you know you had any symptoms like that since you've left corporate life temporarily.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

It is, it is, I mean, certainly is the readjustment of uh of pace is is an interesting one, which uh you know we've talked before about the you know, I'm I'm productive when I'm busy, um, and when I'm you know I have too much time effectively, then I then I you know I become a little bit less. But uh, you know, this yeah, one of the points about the um you know that that kind of three-quarter life crisis, etc. You know, one of the common signs is this kind of almost a loss of motivation, um, which is you know it is driven by the reduction or removal of that uh agenda or pace that's provided to you by your organization or anything else you've been involved in. And it is uh it is one of the you know big pivots that you you have to go through. So yeah, I totally recognize that.

SPEAKER_04 14:57

I think my one and you you'll laugh, Peter, because you'll recognize this about me. I mean, anyone that's ever worked with me know I like to sort of have I like to have my lists, I have my sort of my macro lists and my micro lists, you know, the long-term things, the short-term things, and like to have what I used to call prayer meetings at the beginning of the week and talk about what was going to happen that week. And then that that that was a working habit for me that has it has actually always extended to my uh personal life in terms of trying to balance the things that I do between social things and thing tasks and and and exercise and that sort of thing. But of course, you know, trying to present Beverly, my wife, with a prayer meeting list on Monday morning didn't end well the first time I did it. You sort of think, okay, well, you know, this doesn't work in this setting. That that sort of my need to organize myself on a regular basis actually doesn't mean that those around us appreciate it or indeed need that. And and I think we do need to do a podcast, Peter, when we involve a partner at some point because I think it's a huge transition for them in a way that again, we we often talk about in a sort of uh jokey way, but I think it's important. And David, can I ask you about, you know, because your your um your wife's uh an HR professional as well, um, so she'll have seen what's going through. How has she coped with you being at home, David, with this refreshed sense of purpose?

SPEAKER_01 16:17

Um, well, it's a really interesting question, isn't it? Uh because if if I track back a little bit, the the the work, the pre-work with the financial advisor was to actually determine whether or not I could leave corporate life and then at what stage could she do that as well. And uh you're right, you know, she's got a background in in coaching leaders, etc. So when it came to me uh in the first couple of months after I left corporate life, feeling a little bit discombobulated, as you mentioned early on, she helped, you know, she helped enormously because she could kind of um talk to me in a way which was had that kind of level of empathy, but also she was in preparation for what she was going to go through herself as such. So I I think I think she coped with me uh being out of corporate life more than I or better than I did actually. And the interesting thing was when she eventually uh retired, which was a year later or two years later, then there was another readjustment of the both of us being in the house and the both of us doing things that we really wanted to do, where she's got some passions for other things as well. And all of a sudden, you're entering into a relationship which uh three years ago was quite simple. You know, three years ago it was we both got up at half six, we both had breakfast, we both went into a different office, and we both spent the day uh you know working and then came back together about seven o'clock at night. Now it's it's it it was very different, you know. So there's that's added a different kind of level of adjustments that you have to make when the two of you are kind of uh no longer engaged on a full-time basis in corporate work. And we and do you know there's no substitute to just talking it out, just talking it out and understanding it.

SPEAKER_04 18:18

Yeah, it's so yeah, I we definitely got to do this sort of couple therapy call, Peter. I think because do you remember that was that really funny advert on television a few years ago where there were two people talking about uh married life, I think, and the the woman was saying, you know, I want to travel, I want to go and see the world, I want to visit interesting places, and the bloke was sitting on the sofa with a couple of seasons and says, I just want to be together.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

You remember that?

SPEAKER_04 18:41

That always made me laugh. And so people are different, aren't they? People evolve differently, and I and I suspect it is very challenging for some couples when they get to spend time together uh and they have different expectations or requirements from you know this eldorescence period. That's such an interesting topic. And and David, how how long, how long is it for you now? How long have you been out of the corporate sector for?

SPEAKER_00 19:02

Three years almost to the almost to the day. Three years almost to the day.

SPEAKER_04 19:05

And yeah, and sort of looking back on it now from that sort of three years of experience of having done it, worked through those early trickies periods, focused on those areas that you wanted to focus on, and I'm sure you do this as part of your of your practice, but um, what what would you advise people approaching retirement to do? How would how would you discuss with someone who's approaching it from the learnings that you've had? What advice would you give them and perhaps our listeners?

SPEAKER_01 19:36

You know, the interesting thing on that question, is that you know, what I've learned is that I'm not going to tell anybody anything, you know, because everybody has that, everybody has that kind of difference in their lives, the kind of things they want to achieve. What what I would say I've learned about probably about myself is this is that it really helped, it really helped before I left corporate life, stating how I wanted to feel as opposed to what I wanted to do. Okay. And I think that's really important for me. And it's the one thing that I've constantly gone back on. So the two things I've wanted to feel was one, I wanted to stay in control. And for example, I've been fortunate enough, my executive coaching work has really ramped up, you know, and I'm currently coaching, I believe, 10 people. And I've now been able to say with a particular organization, that's it for a while. I don't want to do any more for a while, and I do that with real comfort and confidence. Whereas years gone by, I would have been saying, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can do that, yeah, I can do that kind of thing. So that initial initial view of um what how I wanted to feel was going to be has become more important than what I actually do. And then the growing to learn, you know, that was my second. I want to learn new things, I don't want to just stay where I am. You know, I remember going my first photography course up in the Lake District with six other kind of, you know, um, what I would call them nudes, they were so clever and technically competent. But the process of learning was very simple. You were given some instruction in the day, you took some photographs in the night, you were critiqued and given feedback. And that is like most learning that you go through in corporate life and work life. And it was the same with executive coaching. When I went to Ashridge, you know, you were given a framework, you were given practice, and then you were given feedback. And you know, it's the same with golf because you get videoed. What's important about that is that in each of those three areas, I was more focused on feeling staying in control and growing rather than how would I look to other people in the organization. Which sometimes for a senior leader can be restrictive in the true developments for them as leaders.

SPEAKER_04 22:08

Well, and you know, hats off to you, David. I I because actually I think there's a there's a dichotomy here, actually, in terms of, you know, you said very eloquently your need or your wish to be in control of the things you do. But of course, learning, you you're out of control, aren't you? I think that's why it's uncomfortable, because you you you you put yourself in a situation where you don't know anything, where you know very little, and therefore you don't know what's coming. And so it's I think that's quite quite an interesting dilemma, really. I mean, obviously, you get to a point when you can control, but as you're learning, you are out of control, aren't you? You don't know what's happening, you you've got surrounded by these technical, clever people. And so there's an area of discomfort, I would suggest, that you put yourself into, but you were motivated to do it, I I think. And it sounds like you were motivated to do it because you wanted to sort of get your photography under control in a way that you could enjoy it better, perhaps.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Yeah, I think that is a dichotomy, but I also think as well that it was always in my control how much I wanted to learn. Right. Basically, you know, and how much how much equipment do I want to buy? You know, what what kind of genre of photography do I want to go down the route? You know, if someone's saying to me, Well, you know, you're never a photographer if you don't have a certain piece of equipment. Well, I I I felt in control of what I wanted to do of that. So I think I think there's an element of putting yourself in um putting yourself in a level of uncertainty, but still feeling if I'm if that if I'm gonna get out of control in that process, then I'm gonna walk away from it because it's not gonna be of interest to me, and I'm not gonna grow. I mean, I I remember the first time I had two photographs assessed by a a a judge, and I felt like I was to school. I really did. I was nervous, they stood up, they started critiquing it. I was thinking, oh my god, they're gonna say it's rubbish, you know, and you know, this person needs to sell their camera, you know, what were they thinking? Um and that was a very exciting kind of moment for me.

SPEAKER_04 24:12

Isn't that interesting? Because as an HR professional, you know, you will in inherently appreciate the act of giving and receiving feedback, won't you? And it sounds like you know, all your insecurities were surfacing there, David, in a way. I'm sure those those photographic judges were equally skilled at giving feedback in a you know in a conscientious way. But isn't that interesting how your insecurities basically blew away all your 40 years of professional um um understanding of what the importance of feedback is?

SPEAKER_01 24:43

Well, that's right, uh and that's my takeaway, which is if in a in an organizational life you can create an environment where people feel that little bit of anxiety, that little bit of, if you like, acid in the table, but feel okay about making mistakes and getting it wrong. Yeah, yeah. Which very often, in my experience, and certainly the the higher you go up the tree in an organization, the more optics you've got on you. Yeah, you know, people are making comments about how good you are, what you did, what you said, how you appear. Whereas in the environments I was, it it kind of at the end of the day, it didn't really matter, right? Yeah, it didn't really matter.

SPEAKER_04 25:22

Yeah. It was fascinating, David. And I perhaps just one last reflection. I mean, yeah, the fact you've chosen coaching as one of your areas of focus is interesting. Clearly, you're, you know, you're a you're a very experienced coach, and I know you've mentored many people in addition over the years. But one of the themes that we've heard from people as they retire is this thing about giving back, you be using your experience in a way that helps other people. And I appreciate coaching, you know, it's a it's a commercial uh engagement you you've been talking about, but I'm I'm wondering how important that was to you to find a way to use your experience and you know that more perhaps altruistic um out you know outlook of how to apply your yeah your skills.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

I I think that's a really good point to to think about, and I did think long and hard about it. And and it came it came out in a very practical way when I was talking to various people who had left companies and become coaches, and I I spoke to maybe eight or nine people I know have done that. And and part of the conversation, how much are you going to charge? How much are you gonna charge people? And and I and I can remember saying, well, you know, to be honest with you, I I I'm doing this for different reasons. I'm doing this because I believe I could um help people to move forward as they transition in in various uh ways in the organization. Oh no, you you know, if they're chief executive, you need to charge this, if they're executives, you need to charge that, if etc. And and what I've found where I've landed is that um I am working with an organization where the age profile is something, the average age profile is something like 28. And that I'm finding as being really, really um interesting for me. And I know interesting is one of those non-words, but it's one of those activities where I think I are I believe I'm genuinely helping an individual go forward, yeah, you know, and that is equally as important as how much I get paid for it, to be quite honest with you and be very blunt.

SPEAKER_04 27:37

Yeah, well, and that the you know, that purpose, that sense of satisfaction in doing what you're doing. I think it's a very high calling to help younger people achieve their potential. So I completely get that. Um, this has been fascinating, David. You know, I'm so interested to hear your story, and it's a great story. You know, you prepared, you knew what was coming, that it happened, and it was a bit um, it was a bit tricky, but you've kept your path and you've you know you've focused on how you felt through the process, which has carried you through into what I'm sure is a very happy time for both you and your and your wife. So thanks for sharing that today, David. That's been really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 28:17

Yeah, thank you as well.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

I mean, so thank you very much, uh Daz, and thank you, Peter.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

Yeah, and I I you know I couldn't I picked up I think on that it's it's very encouraging the fact that you know this this R point, uh, you know, this retirement state is is you know, is the learning, the growth, the opportunity, the giving back, it's not over, it's just a pivot point, and um I think that's a very important message. So thank you.

SPEAKER_05 28:40

You have been listening to Walking Into Retirement, an unusual podcast about finding purpose, meaning, and balance after a busy working life with David Ailing Smith and Peter Taylor. Find out more at www.walking into retirement.com. And why not share your own retirement stories with the hosts?