Take 5: Bagnalls Painting & Decorating Contractors

Welcome to the The 5% Club Podcast: Take Five – where we bring you insight, inspiration and innovation from employers, stakeholders, policy makers and contributors, all in 5% of your working day.

This episode is delivered in collaboration with the Youth Futures Foundation and forms part of a mini-series supporting the Make It An Apprenticeship Campaign.

Bagnalls discuss how employers can use apprenticeships to create opportunities for people as they enter the workforce - what if we were able to use apprenticeships to create more entry levels roles for people?

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Hello and welcome to Take Five, the podcast from the Five Percent Club, where we bring you insight, inspiration, and innovation from employers, sector stakeholders, and policymakers, all in just 5% of your working day. So grab yourself a cup of tea or pop on your trains and headphones, however you like to listen, we're glad that you've chosen to listen with us. I'm Lindsay Conroy, Director for Policy and Strategic Engagement at the 5% Club. An employer movement built by employers for employers, inspiring people to take positive action to create high-quality, inclusive earn and land opportunities for all.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Today's episode is delivered in collaboration with Youth Futures Foundation, the national what work centre for youth employment, with a specific focus on marginalised young people. It aims to create a society where every young person can achieve good work by finding out what works and driving change in policy and practice. This episode is part of a mini-series for the Make It an Apprenticeship campaign.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

We'll be diving into how employers can use apprenticeships to create more opportunities for people as they enter the workforce. We'll be looking at what works, some great advice from employers, and advice for people who are thinking about utilising apprenticeships for their workforce development. We're going to be focusing on a really simple but powerful question. What if we were able to use apprenticeships to create more entry-level rules for people? I'm joined today by two incredible guests, Ellie Jobes and Dave Boot from Bagnolls, an organisation with a long history of supporting apprentices.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

So welcome Ellie and Dave. It's really great to have you here. Thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Um, Dave, I really want to kick off by talking about your story because I understand that you joined Bagnors some years ago as a level two apprentice.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Yeah, I joined uh Bagnols 23 years ago in 2003, uh uh left school at 16, wasn't entirely sure what I was going to do. Um, discussed with my parents what options there were, um, decided upon a trade, uh, saw an advert in the local newspaper from Bagnoles uh and applied for uh an apprenticeship and successfully got the role.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

But that's not what you do anymore. So tell me your journey. Like, how did you go from there to to where you are now?

SPEAKER_02 2:19

So I um I started as I did my three-year apprenticeship, so I did my level MVQ level two, MVQ uh MVQ level three uh on-site as a painter and decorator. Uh, and then at the end of my apprenticeship, I was approached to uh see if I was interested in a management trainee role. So I did a a three-year uh internal management trainee scheme, uh, which then um resulted in me being a contracts manager, and then did that for three years and then became the business manager or the area manager in 2013?

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Thinking about that, uh in particular that career pathway bit one of the things we hear now is that career pathways are really critical for young people when they're thinking about what they might do as their next step. How could you have known back then that that career pathway was an option for you? Or did you not? Is it just a case of this is you know, somewhere that you went and there's no way you could have foreseen this and what a great opportunity you've had?

SPEAKER_02 3:19

Um, I think I didn't know. Um, I left school. Um, I I didn't particularly enjoy school, I didn't it didn't click with me, I didn't get it. And I think I was searching for somewhere, something that where I belonged or I could find purpose and certainly found that pretty quickly within Bagnalls.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

But you've progressed really far within the business. Your role's a you know pretty senior role. So it goes to show the power of an apprenticeship as an entry route, I think.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

Yeah, I think I think learning on the job is a fantastic, um, a fantastic way to get yourself into career. I don't think it just is about the what you learn on the job. I think it gives you life skills. Um, I think it can get you get you ready from a very very early age.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

What do you think to that, Ellie? Because obviously you're chief people officer, is that right? Um I'm group people director, people director, yeah, sorry. Um so in terms of that from your perspective, you know, you take on quite a lot of entry-level individuals into Bagnors. How many each year now? So each year we take on around about 30 to 40 level two painting apprentices, but then because of the routes through um over the course of the whole business, we've currently got and 100 um apprentices. Over a workforce of how many? Um, out of them about 650, 100 of them are in earn and learn positions doing um apprenticeships. That's incredible. Um that's a huge amount for a start. So clearly it's really well embedded within the culture of bagnols. Just tell me a bit about that. We first employed an appendice way back in 1877, so nearly 150 years ago, um we had our first appendice, and it's just a key part of the way that we do things. We have long-serving employees, and many of them stay for their whole career with bagnols, and it's fantastic to see those people passing on their skills to the next generation, and so many people enjoy doing that. So, we have um several people who've worked at the business for over 40 years who started with us as apprentice painters. So that really must underpin this kind of desire that you have to create these entry-level roles and and really kind of appeal to individuals as they're just starting their career. Absolutely. I think I feel really passionately about giving opportunities to young people. It's really difficult starting off in a career, and people know that the world is changing, and often they don't get brilliant careers advice, and having the opportunity to give people like Dave, who may not have enjoyed school that much, and not just a job but a career, is really important. But I think beyond that it makes good business sense as well. We have people who stay with Bagnalls, as I say, for their whole career. We also know that it's coming up for 40% of our workforce who have done an apprenticeship with Bagnalls or are currently doing one. So we get people trained in the Bagnall's way, and we're not spending money on going out to market, recruiting people who may or may not have the skills we're looking for. We've grown our own and we've trained them in the way we want to train them, from quality perspective, but also from a health and safety perspective, so that, like from the word go, the apprentices who work with us know the way that we want and them to work and know that we want them to work safely and go home safely. So, I mean, it's sounding like there's huge benefits for you as an organisation. Just talk about, you know, beyond the the training in the way you want to train them, just talk about some of those benefits that as a business you really see from apprentices. I think some of that enthusiasm that comes through is really powerful. Many of our supervisors feel really proud when they have the opportunity to bring through the next generation, and I've seen people talk um so confidently about um that next generation and what they're doing to support those people. And there also are supervisors of the future, there are managers of the future, and Dave's an example of one of the directors who started as an apprentice, and he he's actually he's one of own of three people who started um as apprentices and and are now and directors of this business.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

So clearly, apprenticeships make really good business sense for you at Bagnalls. From an operational point of view, Dave, you tell me a little bit about that. What do apprenticeships mean for you in your region and in the business?

SPEAKER_02 8:00

If we can recruit at an apprenticeship stage, we can get uh our people through uh understanding our philosophy and our culture, it can open avenues for uh progression. Um, I didn't quite know when I started out where I could go with it, where it would take me, but I certainly feel that within the the business it grows people, it gives them doors to go through. There's there's sort of thresholds of of seniority that you can go through.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Um, Ellie, when we talked earlier, we covered inclusion and diversity within the organisation.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

Um I'm I'm really keen that we unpick that a little bit more. So you've done great work in terms of increasing um the representation for females in what is traditionally a very male-oriented environment. But actually, it's not just you know bringing more females into the business that you talk to me about the adjustments you might make for people with disabilities or neurodiverse conditions. Just tell me a little bit about diversity and inclusion, why that's really important and the benefits that you see from that. We have a skills shortage in the construction industry, and we also have an ageing workforce. So for me, the idea of cutting off um a significant percentage of the potential um workforce of the future just makes no sense. We want to be going out to young people and career changers and saying it doesn't matter who you are, what background you've come from, if you want a career in painting decorating, Bagnells is a place you can come to. So we've done a lot of work in trying to make sure that um women within our business are visible. Um, one of our branch managers, Jane Potter, started as an appendix decorator, and she's been one of the biggest advocates for bringing in more young women into the business. So, in her branches, um, women actually represent 25% of their of her workforce, and most of them have done an apprenticeship with Wagnels. And it's fantastic when people can come into a business and not feel like they're the only woman in that um in that branch. They've got role models to look up to and hopefully they feel like and they belong. Um, but I think there's other things that we've um we've come to really think about and we've got better at over time. So even just things like female workwear and female um personal protective equipment or PPE, and traditionally it's just made for male bodies. So um women would be wearing a high-vis jacket with sleeves that were like the way down their arms. It's not inclusive. So we've done a lot of work with um a supplier to make sure we have a full range of workwear for women. Um, we've designed a bespoke biv and race for women so that um it's really obvious that women are welcome in the business. And even just little things, we recognise that some of our um people come from low-income backgrounds, and for women, that can create um difficulties in terms of access to period products. So, one of the fantastic things that Dave Splunch and piloted was making sure that um we had sanitary wear available to um to women who needed them on our vans so people didn't need to ask or have embarrassment caused and potentially missing um missing work. That's really incredible to be able to just create those small initiatives that to the person on the receiving end of it, actually it it makes a huge difference. Yeah. I think it says that women are a key part of our workforce, they're not an afterthought for um for somebody who has an interest in in painting and decorating. We want to make the um the place um inclusive. And I think beyond that, um when we think about a lot of the backgrounds that people come from, we've started to measure um the number of our apprentices who join us who've come from um backgrounds where they'd have um free school meals. It's around about 25 to 30 percent of our apprentices joining and who have had um have come from low-income backgrounds. So one of the things we do there is we ensure that all of our apprentices start at Bagnall's with a full toolkit and that is given to them, we work with suppliers to provide that. They get their work wear on day one so that nobody is coming in feeling like they have to um to spend money that they don't really feel that they have in order to get prepared to come and join the business. That's such a powerful thing to be able to do because actually, for an individual coming from a background where perhaps they're low-income background, etc., or that maybe they haven't got support from parents to be able to help them to, you know, purchase the equipment they might need early on, it can be a real barrier for them to open up and ask for those things. So actually, just to do it is is probably even more powerful than trying to find out who needs it exactly. And and actually just saying, do you know what? Everybody needs it. So let's let's provide that equity across the board. But when you think about inclusion, and and one of the things that struck me as I've met some of your apprentices today, is um someone's told me they've got ADHD, someone's been deaf, um, and and they've been really open about that and you know, just really clear that this is the challenge I face, but I know that I can talk to people about this and I know that barriers will help me. How do you, as a business, create that culture of it feeling safe for people to disclose, whether it is a disability, a neurodiversity, low-income background, you know, whatever it might be, how do you create that culture that makes it safe for people to go, this is me, this is who I am, and this is the help I might need? I think some of it is the outreach work that we do prior to people coming into to Bagnols. So, um, to give an example from Dave's branch, and they've done some work with um some with an organisation who works with young people, not in education, employment, and training. So, right from the word go, the message has been to some of our adventists you're welcome here because we have deliberately had those discussions and we've encouraged you into the business. And we worked with an organisation a few years ago called Yorkshire Forward, um, and they work with um people who are overcoming drug and alcohol addictions, and we had somebody joining our apprenticeship programme referred through them, and that's somebody who um three or four years on is still within the business, and that's someone who's just started um a level three craft decorator apprenticeship. So I think creating an environment where people can see that um we do deliberately go out and try to recruit from a diverse background is really helpful. Um we also have our group operations director who speaks very openly about his dyslexia and the background that he's come from, and again, it makes it okay for people to talk about. I mean, you clearly have lots of opportunities for people to come into the organisation at that kind of entry to career stage, which is so so important for the reasons that that we've talked about. But it's not just people that are coming in and want to hold a paintbrush, right? There's other other opportunities in terms of business support. Just tell me a bit about those entry roles.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

Yeah, so we have um management trainee, we have sales, we have uh administrative, we have IT uh opportunities, but particularly that I would be most aware of would be management trainee entry levels where we run an uh internal management trainee programme for three years and an option to uh pick up a vocation. Uh three um individuals, one that has just passed and two that are currently um working towards uh in one of my businesses are for a level four diploma in project management, which really helps them work uh parallel with what they're doing in the workplace to learn policies and procedures and um regulations that are brought are brought in along with what they're doing in the workplace and the mentoring they're getting from the people in the in the businesses.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

So there's clearly loads of opportunities kind of in the business support side of things, which I think is really fascinating. And actually, I think it's probably something that people might not think about because you know we've talked a little bit um through our conversations around uh bagnols and and helping people to be aware around what bagnals do and offer, but but potentially people might see bagnols and think, oh, it is painters and decorators, but those are incredible opportunities as well. In terms of like people coming into that straight from school, do you see young people coming in through those parlays also?

SPEAKER_02 17:06

Yeah, a couple of the individuals that that work for me in our Wolverhamter office are 19, so they've literally left from full-time education straight into an apprenticeship with with us. And I mean they're really invested, there's a lot of fire there in what they're doing, they're really enjoying both aspects of what they're doing.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

And Ernie, how do you reach people then? So if you've got, if you're thinking about trying to reach school leavers, trying to make Bagnors attractive to school leavers, and also you know, trying to reach people that are perhaps that little bit further from the workforce for you know, for whatever reason that that might be, what kind of outreach activities would you do as an organization? Um, we do quite a bit of outreach, but I think even just the fact that we are offering apprenticeships, that in itself makes it appealing. And it's one of the things that we've changed from traditionally just offering um craft and apprenticeships to going, we can use apprenticeships throughout our business. And we know that there are some people who have come in um often straight from school who might not have considered a Bagnall's internal um trainee program, who, because there was an apprenticeship offered alongside it, it suddenly becomes that much more appealing because I think there's a badge of quality there through the apprenticeship route. So um Dave's got a couple of examples in his business, but they also um we also use apprenticeships um for entry level in wider support roles. So um administrators in head office, for example, and we've expanded our IT team recently, and we've had a couple of people doing apprenticeships in IT, and one of whom um has just completed a cybersecurity apprenticeship, and it's a really good example of what um the world changing. And 20 years ago that wasn't on anybody's radar, but now it's front and centre of being a good business is having good cybersecurity, and we need expertise that apprenticeships help to bring in. But in terms of outreach that we do, um we do um a fair amount of work within schools, and we also go to colleges um and we have relationships with colleges who have full-time courses um and students who would then want to progress onto an apprenticeship, and often um we'll have people coming to join us on work experience who can then um join the business by doing an apprenticeship. Tell me a bit about your work experience offer then, because again, you know, that's something that not not all young people have the you know opportunity to access really high-quality work experience. What does that look like? That can be a week on site, um, giving people a chance to experience the world of work, even just things like being picked up um early in the morning to get to get to site. It's an important introduction to the world of work, and particularly if they are coming from college and they've they've learned some basic painting and decorating skills, we can get them to use those skills in a wider environment. Um, and I know last year a couple of the people who um joined as apprentices on um at our Leads Branch, there were people who'd come to us for work experience, and quite frankly, it's the best form of interview there is it's seeing what people can actually do in practice. I think um there are some employers that might be concerned about doing things like offering work experience or indeed offering an apprenticeship to say a 16-year-old when they're coming out of school for for health and safety reasons, you know, not least you need to obviously have all the risk assessments for having a young person on site. How do you guys deal with that? How do you manage it? What practical advice could you give?

SPEAKER_02 20:58

Uh I think it would be a very sort of short-term view to not bring young people in, young apprentices. I think um we're developing for the future, we're bringing people in for our future growth, our future leaders, as Ellie's mentioned. So I think I'd encourage any company to bring young people in and they bring energy, they bring ideas, they bring a freshness to the business. Uh, and I think all that they really need is a pathway and a and a good mentor or a good couple of mentors, and that can be a real positive to any business.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

And I think I'd add to that, and from a safeguarding perspective, 16, 17-year-olds legally, they are still children, and I can understand the fear that organisations might have. And I think what's really important there is to think what's good practice for everybody, we should have planning for everybody about what's appropriate behaviour. We should have code of conduct, and whether that's somebody who's 17 or 18, they should still be treated with respect. And I think the world of work is changing. Um, so I'd just say to any business, don't be afraid of um employing somebody who's 16 or 17, but make sure the support structures are around them, whether that's a um uh uh a manager who's got the skills in supporting apprentices specifically, um, but just generally making sure that everybody knows um it's a workplace and we need to treat everyone with um respect and recognise where there might be some safeguarding issues that um need to be escalated. I'm I'm really interested actually in the point that you just made around making sure you've got managers who know how to support apprentices directly. Um the Association of Apprentices recently released some research that showed that the the correlation between manager support and apprentice outcome is something never to be underestimated, actually, as the make or break factor in terms of success. How do you guys make sure that your managers, particularly because your managers are so dispersed across the country, how do you make sure that they know how to really support apprentices and they know what, you know, the the the unique things that apprentices might need in order to succeed in your business? I mean, Dave, as a a regional director, I guess that sits within your remit.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

Yeah, I mean, we um we certainly at each business we have an apprentice lead who um takes ownership of ensuring that we check in regularly with our apprentices and then they've got everything that they need and that um they're making the relative progression. We have um regular appraisals with them, quarterly appraisals, and check that they've got again got everything that they need heading in the right direction. We check in with the colleges, that they're doing what they need from a college front, and then in terms of the business managers or the branch managers, um it it's making sure that that they're working within the Bagnorld culture and that they're emp that they have empathy when dealing with our people. Um yeah, and just just positivity and making sure that we're investing in the growth of our our young people, um, and that's that's vitally important.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Just thinking about um the importance then of uh the people that support your apprentices that really enable their success, understanding what those apprentices are going through. Can you give me some examples of how that works?

SPEAKER_02 24:18

Yeah, certainly. I mean, a lot of our managers and our, as Ellie said, our directors have been through the apprentice program themselves or um completed an apprenticeship, so they have the first hand knowledge of what it feels like and experience to uh face um uh mistakes or uh things when they're not feeling as though they're doing a good job. Uh, and I think a lot of the people that we have in in the in in each business um can empathise and can deliver support, and because they know from first hand experience.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Just talk to me a little bit about why entry level in particular apprenticeships are so important for you here. We know that level two apprenticeships have gone down um in recent years. So we're hearing huge amounts about um apprenticeship offerings. It's something that a lot of young people aspire to do, but the actual reality is that um this the people who are starting level two apprenticeships are going down and they provide a great route into the world of work. They're fantastic for somebody leaving school at 16. But let's not forget that there aren't huge numbers of um graduate apprenticeships out there, and those entry level at level two, at level three, can be really worthwhile for people who are leaving school at 18 as well, um, because not everybody wants to go to university, um, not everybody feels like they want to get into debt that can be associated with university, but it's not just a case of level four or above is the alternative. There um there are good paths at um doing lower level apprenticeships and they create pathways into a business, and somebody who um does well at those apprenticeships they will thrive in a business and further opportunities will be available to them. So I think there is something to be said for schools to consider more widely the pathways that they encourage young people to take. It's not just a case of um doing a degree or having um doing a graduate um uh university level apprenticeship as an alternative. Um, schools, parents, individuals, I'd really encourage them to look at all the offerings that are available. It's a bit old we're talking about earlier, actually, isn't it? That it's not about a linear career ladder. It's not about, you know, you do a level and then you do the next level and the next level.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

Actually, we'll know in the world of work we do lots of sidesteps to, you know, learn new skills and get in into different jobs. So I think you're right, there's definitely something about how we educate the educators around that.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Maybe that's where things like the outreach that you do so effectively here plays a part. Yeah, absolutely. And we have at our um for our management trainee program, it works out that around about a third of our management trainees have previously done an um a trade apprenticeship, mostly with Bagnalls. About a third are school leavers, and about a third are graduates, and they all come in at the same level. Um, but we recognise that actually for graduates, they may not have known what they wanted to do at 18, and they can still come and join the programme that we've got on offer, and it it recognises, as you said, that it's not always a linear cat. Um it's uh it's a career, uh it's not just a career ladder so much anymore. There's lots of sideways moves, careers changes, and if we can encourage people to think in that way, I think we'll have more people gaining the right skills where there are jobs that are available to them. So, you know, maybe helping employers to look at their roles and identify where those roles could be offered as an apprenticeship opportunity. Yes, I think that sometimes people can employers can be scared of offering an apprenticeship opportunity and thinking that they don't have the skills to support them or worry about the off-the-job training. Um, but our experience with colleges is that they will help support that and they will walk the apprentice and the employer through what that off-the-job learning looks like and will help um the apprentice get to where they need to be. You know, as we said earlier, this is clearly a cultural thing for Bagnalls. You know, it's it's deeply embedded, 40% of your workforce have been around apprentices, so it's hugely embedded in everything you do here. What advice would you give to an employer who's maybe just tiptoeing in to apprenticeships right now? What would you tell them? You know, what mistakes have you made? What can you learn from on, you know, what you that what advice I would really strongly advocate for employing apprentices and particularly looking at entry-level roles as a route and into the business and doing an apprenticeship alongside that. Um, apprenticeships are fantastic for upskilling as well. What we know is that there are a lot of young people, um, not in education, employment, or training. I think it's nearly a million NEEPs now. And if we don't have the opportunities available for those young people, we um we have a lost generation um potentially, and I think employers have a responsibility to think about what does the next generation do. But but beyond that, there are huge numbers of business benefits of apprentices, and the world of work is changing. The apprenticeships that are on offer now are in things that 20 years ago weren't really being talked about, cybersecurity being one of them. We have a sustainability um practitioner who's doing an apprentice alongside um work um in our business, and he's able to come in, he's able to advise the business on an area that we haven't been experts in. So it's a real opportunity to get um some new skills in the business as well as some energy, some passion. And if somebody is well supported, they can be the most loyal um uh people in the business and the best advocates for um the business. Um beyond that, there are a lot of business benefits, even in terms of things like national insurance savings for um employing people under the age of 25. The training's also funded through the adventureship levy and um the the quality of training that's delivered for actually a pretty limited cost to the organisation is and is really powerful and and brings those fantastic business benefits. Brilliant, thank you very much. And Dave, what about kind of practical on-the-ground advice for someone who, you know, presumably in your role, certainly your branch managers, but even you, I guess, to a degree, if we deal with apprentices on a daily basis. What practical advice would you give to people thinking about doing that?

SPEAKER_02 31:29

Patience, I think, would be the key one. I don't think these people um are ready to do the job to the to the nth degree right away. You need patience, they need time to develop their skills, um, and I think support, a hell of a lot of support, direction, um, praise where things are good, they need to be pointed in the right direction when things aren't going well. But certainly, certainly that patience, consistency, I would say, need to be consistent with people, make sure that um we're there for them every day, we're there for them every week, and we're we're certainly pointing them in the right direction and and they understand the path and where they're going to be in a year or two years' time, and we really invest in their in their progress.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

It's worth it though, right? Like it all the patience and the hard work and support you give, it's worth it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

And and and as as Ellie says, they'll be the most loyal people because you because you've been through that for two, three, four years, whatever it is, you're invested in that journey, and you you you feel grateful and thankful. I've got a lot to thank Bagnals for because of the time they the patience that they showed me and the time they showed me. So yeah, it's um I think they're fantastic things. And if we can get more people in, um, you know, they'll be they'll be the stars of the future.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

That's an amazing advice that Dave's kind of offered there in terms of those practical hints and tips that people can take. Um, and it isn't easy, right? It often doing things that are really worthwhile isn't easy, and it is worthwhile hiring apprentices, particularly at that entry level. You've been great. What a wonderful conversation, and thank you so much for sharing the experiences of Bagnalls. It's just so heartening to see an organization really, really believing in and adapting and adopting apprenticeships as core to their culture. It's been fantastic to talk to you. Thank you.

unknown 33:17

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Today's episode of Tate Five was brought to you in collaboration with the E Teachers Foundation, working on their mission to ensure that more young people can find and thrive in good work. If you'd like to find out more about the series, the 5% club, or the make it an apprenticeship campaign, you can find the details in the links to this episode. Thank you so much for giving us 5% of your working day.