Handyman vs. Remodelers, Which Is Better?

Most handyman and service business owners are drowning in day-to-day tasks…

Answering calls. Sending estimates. Following up. Managing schedules.

But what if you could offload 50–60 hours per week—without sacrificing quality?

In this episode, we break down exactly how virtual assistants and simple systems can transform your business operations.

You’ll learn:

•  What tasks you should delegate first 
•  How to use VAs to handle emails, scheduling, and CRM 
•  The “time audit” method to free up your workload 
•  Why most business owners stay stuck doing low-value work 
•  How automation + systems create real freedom 

If you want to grow your business without burning out, this is the playbook.

👉 Start building systems. Stop doing everything yourself.

👉Schedule a free, no-pressure strategy call: go.handymanmarketingpros.com

👉Grab the free 3-in-1 Handyman Playbook Bundle: go.handymanmarketingpros.com/playbook-form

👉Connect with us:
💻Website: handymanmarketingpros.com
✉️Email: sales@handymanmarketingpros.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Hello, friends. Welcome to the Home Hero Podcast. I'm Jason Call, owner of Handyman Marketing Pros. I'm joined by Kobe McManaman, Business Development Manager at Handyman Marketing Pros, licensed general contractor in the state of Michigan, former handyman and remodeling company owner. Today we're going to be talking about handyman versus remodel projects, the pros and cons of each, and just things to think about. A lot of people that we work with, a lot of uh handyman businesses naturally dabble in handyman or in remodeling projects alongside handyman projects. Kobe has hands-on experience doing both and ultimately primarily transitioning to remodels. So we're gonna be really diving into Kobe's brain and experience here to kind of dissect uh the pros and cons of each. So um all that said, Kobe, I'd love to hear kind of your um kind of initial, or if you could kind of give us a little snapshot of your experience um of I know initially starting mostly in handyman projects, which most do when they're getting started in the contracting space, um transitioning to remodel. Um, give us an overview of kind of what that experience was like, and then we'll start dissecting each of these individual pieces like operations, marketing, hiring, labor, things like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Yeah, um lot to lot to say there. Um I'll try to keep keep kind of the backstory um you know brief and concise. But um essentially, yeah, I started I started out about five years ago um doing you know, mostly hand-eman projects. Um they're they're easier to get those projects, especially when you don't have a bunch of that that proof of work you've done before, um, get getting started in there. Ultimately, when I started out, kind of my my goal was to get into the you know the contracting space, um, doing more of the remodels and and things like that. So the hands are why was that your goal?

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Yeah, good good question. Not to not to interrupt, but I'm just curious about the the high-level goal there.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Yeah, but mostly it was uh um frankly, mostly it was mostly an ego thing. Um you know, in the contracting space, especially, there's like the the negative connotation that that people have um about the word handyman. Um you don't see that very much, you know, with actual homeowners, like the clients and things like that, like they're they're looking for handyman. Um, but in the contracting space, in the building world, um, you know, there sometimes there's that negative connotation. So a lot of it was an ego thing, um, trying to work up to those types of projects. Um and I actually lived a few doors down um from a home builder, actually built my parents' house. Um, and so just kind of being a little bit closer to what what he did building spec homes and subdivisions and that sort of thing, that was something I was like, oh, it'd be cool to to to to work up to. So um a lot of it was just you know, like I said, in in the ego thing, um, and and having the ability to do some of those those bigger projects, those sexier projects that look really good in the pictures, the nice kitchens and the home editions and and that sort of thing. So big top line. Right, yeah, exactly, and big big numbers, um, big numbers on the top, not so much on the bottom. So awesome.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

Um, so so initially you you went out to get handyman projects as a focus because there was just higher volume, easier to get, uh, but your goal was always to work towards those um remodels. So um what are the I guess if you had to give some higher level like pros and cons of um like what what did you enjoy on the handyman side, what did you not enjoy? And then on on the remodel side, uh, you know, kind of the same pros and cons.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Yeah, totally. So definitely pros on the handyman side is um, you know, there's a lot more volume of leads. Um there's generally speaking, there's there's less competition. Um and again, you need you need less of that initial proof because people are making a you know a lower dollar commitment to you versus a you know a big $50,000, $60,000 kitchen remodel. Um, so that's a huge pro. Probably the biggest pro that stands out is they're lower ticket prices on average for handyman projects. So you need more volume, but there's also a lot less liability and and and risk. Um you know, on a $60,000 kitchen remodel, man, if something goes wrong on that project, that problem is a much bigger ticket, much bigger cost than it would be on a you know, a thousand dollar um handyman project. Worst case scenario on a handyman project, you're probably gonna lose you know a thousand bucks if everything goes wrong on a sixty thousand dollar kitchen remodel. If everything goes wrong, that's sixty grand you're looking at, right? Um, you know, then you you typically you've got much bigger um you know warranty stuff on on the bigger projects also that you have to honor, um, that sort of thing. So I don't know if that answered your your question.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, man. Um so one other kind of personal take I'd love to get is um if from from your personal perspective, um if you were to do it all over again, would you would you like would you have a mix of handyman and remodel? Would you try to crack the code again on remodel, go full handyman? Uh like what are your thoughts there? Because and I will say there is a common denominator of uh a lot of clients that we work with that do remodel projects, uh, I they can strategically stay pretty dang busy because they can book out those bathrooms, kitchens, you know, deck construction, whatever it may be, um, especially around the slow season. Um so there is a lot of value from the client-facing side of they got one person to call, but you know, the reason why we're talking about this is so we can bring a lot of transparency into it. It's not as simple as just saying yes to the big jobs and getting that money, and there's a lot of variables to consider. So if you were to go do it back all over again, would you do a mix? Would you stick with one or the other? What are your thoughts there?

SPEAKER_00 6:04

Yeah, good question. Um, I would probably do a mix, um, certainly focusing on the handyman stuff. Um, you know, I think you can make a bigger, you can make a better um gross margin on the handyman stuff and you know, all of the other issues that I already mentioned about um remodeling of potential risks. But one of the biggest benefits of the the remodels, the bigger projects, is like you said, you can keep your schedule booked up, you know, more more consistently. You know, if you're doing a big kitchen and it takes you four weeks, I mean, you get a month of work on the schedule with one client. Um, and so what what we did initially, this was probably about year two when we were still doing kind of a a mix of things that worked pretty well. Um, as we get into like midsummer, it's the busy season, we're kind of booking out anyways. We would front load, you know, those handyman projects first come, first serve to get them on the schedule. Um, and then we would kind of backload the the bigger remodel. So, you know, first sign contract for a remodel, we would schedule them for February, because that was a slow season, you know, in in Michigan was obviously the winter time. So we'd have one February, and then if another remodel came in, then you know that would be January and we would work backwards. We would backfill the schedule from from there. Um, and then if if it came to November and it's a slow season, and it's like, okay, are we we schedule this remodel for for January, you know, we might be able to push those people up in the schedule and say, hey, good news, we're able to get started sooner. Um, so that works super well for um you know scheduling and kind of managing some of the volatility and the you know the seasonality of construction work. Um so so that's that's probably how I would do it, but I would I'd be uh I'd be careful not to get too too custom with the remodel stuff because when you say uh custom, it it's a lot harder to scale custom. Um, because then you're talking about some more niche skills you have to hire for, a lot more complexity in design, um, that sort of thing. So the the the remodels that I would do would be um, I don't want to say cookie cutter, but they'd be a little bit more templatized, um, a little bit more repeatable, um, just again, easier to scale, easier to train people instead of doing, you know, all high-end trim work um and super high-end tile and and that sort of stuff. I'd try to keep things a little bit simpler.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Yeah, that makes sense. I know um the most common remodel project that handyman businesses would take on is bathroom remodeling, because you know, those uh hallway bathrooms, it's just like a, you know, they're they're about the same size, you know, what you're working with. It can be two, three, four days a week, um, a little bit more cookie cutter. Of course, that's not what you'd say to the client. Uh oh, it's custom bathroom, whatever you want, you know, we'll get you hooked up. Um, cool. So let's dig into some of the um more nitty-gritty uh variables here. So you you touched on marketing a bit, um, and that's certainly something I can shed uh some light on when it comes to attracting handyman projects versus attracting remodel projects. Um they're very different buying purchasing decisions because of the you know the big ticket price, right? There's a lot more thought, there's a longer sales process, uh, more touch points. You got to work harder to get that job booked than a handyman project of you know mounting a few TVs, replacing some ceiling fans. So when it comes to marketing, naturally lead cost is way higher for remodel projects because there's more competition. There are nationwide franchises that focus on those cookie-cutter, you know, um bathrooms with the shower systems. Remember, you had some experience in those as well. Um so you're looking at higher competition, higher lead cost, especially if you're running paid ads, more competition organic from SEO, ranking, etc. On the flip side, handyman, uh, there's less competition advertising. So lead cost is very low when you're looking at paid ads. Uh, getting ranked across your service area is gonna be less time, less effort, less money than the comparative, you know, seeking those high-end design remodels kind of thing. Um, so my guidance for anyone that is doing both, as long as it's not a big majority being remodels, our guidance to our clients, anyone we work with, and anyone listening is lead with handyman services. Have your primary Google category as handyman, optimize your website for handyman and remodeling contractor, but have the remodels be second to the optimization ranking perspective. Uh, on Google Maps, you can have one primary category. It's the biggest ranking influencer. Have that be handyman because you're maximizing relationship. If there's a higher volume of handyman projects, uh higher handy quality, higher quantity of handyman leads out there, we want to maximize that lead flow. And anyone that needs their ceiling fan replaced, at some point, they could be interested in a bathroom remodel or their kitchen. So, my guidance to anyone listening that does both lead with handyman because there's less competition, lower lead costs, and then cross-sell those leads, those customers, those relationships by making sure with a nice flyer, nice website, conversations that, hey, we just helped you swap out these ceiling fans. We can actually, you know, remodel this space, you know, add an accent wall, look at the bathroom. And if you provide a great service on that $1,000 project and they know you do remodels, it's a no-brainer for the homeowner. Like they want to work with the same company if possible, uh, especially provide great service. So that's my piece on the marketing lead with handyman, less competition, cheaper lead cost, more relationships, more clients, more leads that you can cross-sell to those more expensive projects that you aren't competing with the people paying $100, $200 per lead from Google ads. Um, so that's my thoughts on marketing. What was your experience or your thoughts on the different uh maybe pros and cons of marketing remodels versus marketing handyman projects?

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Yeah, you you definitely nailed it. Um our all of our first remodel projects um came from from past handyman clients. And they're like, hey, we're thinking about getting our bathroom done. Do you do you do that? And I'm like, yeah, we we do that. We hadn't done it at that point. But uh so that's where the first ones came from, anyways. Um so they were repeat clients. So those were, you know, after that initial cost, whatever it was to get them as a handyman client, they were they were free leads at that point. Um, and then once we got those few remodels under our belt and we had some more marketing materials, some more photos, some more, some more proofs, more reviews, um, then we were able to, you know, transition to you know marketing more for remodels specifically. But I think it was like year three before we changed our primary business category. Um, against Jason's advice, I think I remember. Um he's like keep it keep handy, man. Um, and and certainly the lead cost um did did increase, but I mean we ended up doing super well. Obviously, you were doing you know our website and and and marketing, and um up until the last year we were in business, our our average um cost to acquire a customer was about 300 bucks across all channels, um with our average um ticket price being 28,000. Um, so that's a that's a that's a pretty good ratio there, 300 bucks to to bring in, you know, 28,000 in revenue, um, which I know we'll talk about pricing later, but um you know that that revenue number doesn't always tell the whole story. Um but so we did pretty well still. Um that's a testament to you guys, obviously, when you were doing the website um for me, but yeah, the I mean the handyman stuff it's it's much cheaper, much easier to to get the leads um you know from from Google, even from Facebook and that sort of thing. Um you know, the big the biggest the biggest driver of that I think is just you need so much more proof and trust building, you know, to get somebody to sign a contract for you know thirty thousand dollars than you do for to you know hang up a ceiling fan. Yeah, right. And then like you said, you can transition those clients, cross-sell them to the remodels if that's something that you're interested in in doing.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

Yeah, absolutely. I my wife and I just uh we just signed on the dotted line. We need a new roof, you know. We're at the end of life. And I'm gonna tell you, we sat on that estimate for for longer than you know, our handybam bidding a project. Uh really had to, you know, take a big gulp and sit on it for a bit, write the check, send it in. So um it's a very different buying decision. Um, and I remember initially, so if if those listening don't know, uh we worked with uh Kobe's company uh for four years. And uh, you know, we had a lot of conversations before we started working together and you finally pulled the trigger. And uh I remember within the first three months, you'd already booked more like remodel projects than you did the whole previous year. But I don't say that to say we're awesome. I say that to say we led with handyman services for the first year or two. And it's a testament to like you got more leads from optimizing for handyman, but you also did an amazing job with the relationships and cross-selling, booking out these big projects, even though they might have come in for a handyman job, or you had a past client that now knows because of a nice website, good marketing materials, like, oh, Kobe does that stuff. Uh, that's great. So um overall summary on marketing, guys. If you're doing one or the other, uh, or you're doing both, lead with handyman. Uh, maximize those relationships, that leave flow and cross-sell. Okay, let's transition a bit to um actually there's a quick little fun one I've got noted here. Stinker client. So we've all worked with clients that um we're ready to get out of the house, right? Uh you're you're ready to get out of there. What when you're look doing a handyman project, you're out of there the same day. When you're doing a remodel project, you're in that person's house for you know, sometimes over a month. Uh could you sh I'd love to get your perspective on that almost this relational bog, this emotional bog of driving to a job site. Uh is the good client quality and a bad client quality stark difference? So I'd love to hear your perspective on, you know, the difference and the real burden that you'd feel as a business owner.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Yeah, I mean, everybody's everybody who's been in business has had those clients that are um that you know, they can just be, they can be a stinker. Um, you know, they're they're they're pulling up a lawn chair in the kitchen and they're sitting down and they're watching you work the whole day and they're looking over your shoulder when you're under the sink and and and that sort of thing. And and some of those clients are like, man, I just let's get this job done. Let's get out of here. Um, let's move on to the next one. Well, once once once you sign that that that contract for a for a you know, if it's a nice custom kitchen remodel, you're there for you know four or six weeks or whatever it looks like, depending on the size of the project. You're there every day, and yeah, I mean you sign the contract and you know you're an honest business owner, so you're gonna get the job done. Um and and and you're just you're stuck with them for for way longer. And a lot of the times, people don't really clients don't always you know show that side of them until you're there in your house. Um and even even some of the better clients, I mean, remodeling having worked on your house is super inconvenient. It is super inconvenient for everybody involved. Um, and so even if you're spot on with expectation setting and telling people, yep, we're gonna be here for four weeks, and you get done in four weeks, it takes exactly as long as you said it would. But I mean people get tired of you being in their house every day and making a mess. Um it is a it's it's a pain, it's a pain for everybody. And so that that's a huge that's a huge con of the of the longer projects, um, in in my opinion, is that duration of time that that you're in in somebody's house. They just want you they just want you out of there. Um I mean there's and there's so much there's so much more about that, but big, big, big thing to to to consider um when you're looking at potential remodels. You you really have to uh try your best to kind of weed out those clients if you get that that like red flag feeling on the front end when you're giv doing the estimating process and that sort of thing. I mean, some people you just gotta tell them like, ah, this job isn't this job isn't for me. Um and it's you don't have to do that quite as much with the anime and stuff, because again, it's your it's less time, lower ticket value. The you know, the worst case scenario is typically not as bad. Um, but you gotta be a lot more diligent, you know, about interviewing your clients um before you you sign up for a big project like that.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

Yeah, that's a really important variable that you know I initially kind of brought up as a joke, but it's a real variable that people don't really fully grasp until they've been on that six-week remodel with that nightmare client and or or that good client that it goes sour because they get tired of you being there and banging around and uh you know inconveniencing their life. Um, like they don't even understand the full scope of what's about to happen when you sign that contract. Um, someone that uh depending on when this episode releases, Chris Olson, uh I remember him talking about uh I love exterior remodeling, like the decks, the fencing, fencing pergolas, uh concrete pavers, et cetera, because at least you're out of the house, you know, you're not in there banging around, they can still be in their kitchen, they got their bathrooms, et cetera. Um, so that's a very real variable that it's it's important to bring up so people can think about. And also, I I hadn't really fully heard that that fleshing out of even a good client, everyone hits their wits' end, you know. Like I haven't had my kitchen in four weeks. Like I'm tired of eating out, I'm tired of DoorDash, like it's getting expensive, and I'm paying these guys. So there's all these little like pokes for the duration that even someone that's a great person, a great client, you know, they kind of want their home back. Um, and it's hard to understand what that emotional setting is gonna be like in the future. Um, on the flip side, though, I know you've talked about uh one of your later jobs where uh the client would, you know, feed you guys breakfast, lunch, dinner, and uh, you know, would really like welcoming you into their house like their own family. So that's probably a very slim slice of the pie, but must have felt really nice to get that kind of treatment and appreciation.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, we had a ton of those clients too. You know, the the stinkers were were more rare than the you know the the those good clients. Um, like if you asked me to pick my favorite client, I mean there'd be too many to pick from. Um but that particular client, I mean, we were on their project for for three months. It was a it was a really big home addition. Um, so we did, you know, a whole new kitchen, we added a bathroom, um, added a bedroom. It was a huge project. Added a laundry room on the first floor. So, I mean, we were just disrupting their lives for for a long time. Um, and where we put the addition was actually where their their main um sewer line was going out to the road. So they were two days, they didn't even have um you know sewer in their house. They're living in the south while we're doing the um, you know, this addition. They were the most patient people um you've ever met in your life. They were they were an older, older family, husband and wife that that lived together with um with the wife's mother, um, and and his mother-in-law, and they just loved cooking. And so they really struggled not having their their kitchen for a while because we had to demo their existing kitchen um as part of the process. But as soon as we got their kitchen fired up and we were doing, you know, trim and some of the other things, we really prioritized the kitchen for them every single day. I mean, they were force feeding us. Um we're like, no, we're we're gonna we're gonna have to take a nap if you you know you feed us, you know, lunch again, we're not gonna get as much done. And I mean just the this the sweetest people ever, and it you know it makes makes all the inconvenience worth it. But you can still tell, you know, they were they were getting antsy, right? Yeah, for us to they were ready for us to get out of there. But um so th those those good clients really, really make it really make it worth it.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

Yeah, awesome. Glad you said that, man. Um all right, let's let's talk about uh What is let's look at labor. Uh it's a huge difference there because you're bringing in subs, you've got your W-2 employees out there. Um obviously with the handyman projects, it's really straightforward. You know, at most you're gonna need a helper, right? Or if you got multiple trucks on the road, you know, they're still getting dispatched in like singular, you know, vehicles. So it's it's all the same, if you will. It's way simpler. Um, I'd love to hear your perspective on like uh, you know, doing both, what what what kind of labor considerations does one have to consider when they're really trying to add remodels uh to their handyman business?

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Yeah, I mean, if you're doing some of the bigger remodels, um, though those are a lot tougher to do, you know, by yourself just as a as an owner operator. You certainly can do you know smaller bathrooms and stuff, but if you're getting into a big, real big kitchen project and you're trying to do it yourself and hang cabinets by yourself and that sort of thing, it gets a lot tougher. And then, you know, you you run into even more of those issues where you're in somebody's house for longer, it's taking you longer by yourself. Um, and and so you know, you need some help if you're doing remodels. And I know it's different in every state, but typically you need more licensing um to do some of these remodels also. Um, and then you start getting into subcontractors. So, so in Michigan specifically, even though I'm a I'm a licensed residential builder, so you can you can do just about anything, you can't touch electrical, HVAC, plumbing, any of the specialty trades, those have to be individually licensed. Um, and and so you now you're looking at subcontractors. That gets things, you know, that makes things a little bit more complicated. And then if you're looking at, you know, trying to avoid as many subcontractors as as as possible, um, now you're looking at bringing on guys in-house that know how to hang drywall, finish drywall, install flooring, install trim, paint, do tile, install cabinets, right? And finding those guys that are great at all of those things and having having on your team. Um, there's not many guys that are experts at all of those things to do it efficiently in in big projects. Um, so those people are tough to find. And I've seen guys do it where they've got a guy on their team in-house that's a tile guy, somebody that's a drywaller. Um, but now you're talking about a big operation to keep somebody, you know, your drywaller busy all the time with just the drywall portions of your project. Um but even if you're looking at handyman stuff and you're looking at hiring, you know, more than just a helper, um, you're still looking at somebody who's who's gonna be a you know jack of all trades. Um, which you know, finding finding finding good people that know how to do a little bit of everything is um it's always it's always tough. Um, but I'd say the biggest difference is you you when you start getting into subcontractors, it can it can make things you know a lot a lot more complicated.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Yeah, and there's different schedules you gotta line up. They've got their business, they're on different jobs, and so getting the timing right because you need um you know this done before that. Um so looking at your specific experience, um, you know, the regular kind of mom and pop shop, if you will, um how did what was your mix of W-2 and subcontracting? Like, would you have any kind of guesstimation as far as your labor expense? Like what percentage was subcontractor, what percentage was W-2? But overall, shed a light on what was that mix like for for you, which is going to be a standard setup for any kind of remodel focused uh contracting company?

SPEAKER_00 25:27

Yeah, so at our at our biggest, um, so we had myself and eight in-house um W-2 employees. Um, so that was two crews of four guys. So we'd have typically two bigger projects going on at once, um, and and trying to schedule them in a way where um the because we would try to use the same subcontractors on each project. We would kind of stack or start the project so we're not you know at the plumbing stage at the same time on both projects. Scheduling is a huge thing, but so complicated. It stresses me out hearing about this mostly in handyman side. It's it's it's super, it gets super complicated. But um as far as like expense goes, um W-2 compared to to subcontractors, um it was pretty close to to 50-50 at the end of the year as far as our as far as our expenses would go. Um, we would get a lot more out of our W-2 employees, but then those subcontractors, I mean, they've got their margin and you know, their profit that they're that they're putting on stuff too. Um and uh my my project manager and I, towards the end of the year, we were going through our um profit and loss and we were looking at how much we had paid to our plumber. Um, and that year, you know, we had paid them like $120,000. And I was like, I was like, dude, what if we what if we hired a in-house master plumber and we paid him $90,000 a year, which he'd be pumped about as a master plumber in in Michigan, and he could work two days out of the week just doing our projects, not work the rest of the time, and we would save, you know, thirty thousand dollars a year. Um so subs subs get subs get expensive.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

They yeah, but then when you hire somebody that's a specialist, you gotta have the work for them.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

Right. But uh like I said, even you know, just doing the rough math. I mean, we our our plumbing subs were on our projects, you know, on average, two probably two days a week between all of our projects. And throughout the whole year we had paid them, you know, about 120,000. And I was like, man, we could totally hire a master plumber for 90,000. Even if we didn't keep them busy, they were just busy those two days out of the week, like the sub was, and we would save save money. It was more we were mostly joking about it, but um, yeah, if you were to bring in a specialist, I mean, uh nobody would actually hire a master plumber for $90,000 a year and have them sitting on their butts, you know, three days out of the week. But um, if you do you know, if you do decide you you want to have your electrician on staff and your plumber on staff, I mean you're talking about a you know a big operation that just adds so much complexity if you were gonna look at doing it that way.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Um, so so you had two crews at the peak. Um, I I imagine scheduling and like general operations would dramatically change from one to two. And like you mentioned, you got to make sure the plumbing phases are not during the same time. And and obviously, all this stuff, a handyman business does not have to really worry about or consider if there's so you know, solely a handyman shop. Um, but when it comes to like a handyman business that's maybe got one crew or just kind of a smaller handyman shop or an owner-operator that's doing some remodels on the side, uh, what are the biggest operational kind of considerations and differences when you look at like um, you know, scheduling, planning, um, equipment, supplies, you know, all the stuff that goes into doing the job?

SPEAKER_00 28:53

Yeah, I mean, there, my opinion, handyman contracting, no matter what it is in home services, scheduling is probably one of, if not the most difficult parts of the job as an owner operator. Um, I think handyman stuff, you get a little bit more leeway with with clients because these are shorter projects. Sometimes you might be able to text your client, especially if it's a repeat client, just be like, hey, uh, we opened up today. Can we can we swing by and knock this out for you? That sort of thing. You can't do that when you're talking about tearing somebody's um kitchen out. But again, with the handyman stuff, I mean, you need more volume to keep that that that schedule, that schedule full. And you might be thinking, man, this is gonna take me, this job is gonna take me two hours replacing this this toilet, and then I can jump over to the next job. And so I've you've got all these people on the schedule, they know when I'm coming, and you pull up that toilet, and you're like, oh, the toilet flange needs replaced, and then you're gonna be in there half the day, you miss the next project, and then you know that kind of cascades and they're pushing everybody back. Um, so there's a little bit more you know, volatility with the the those shorter projects, I think, on the on the handyman side. Yeah. And then you get the complexity on the remodel side, like we already talked about, with managing subcontractors and crews and and all that sort of stuff. Um, so that they're both difficult in different ways, but I certainly think that the the handyman side of things, it's it's you have so much more flexibility with these less invasive shorter-term projects where you can kind of get in and get out. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

I think that that complexity really shines a light too on like uh you know, handyman versus any other trade industry is is way more predominantly owner-operator or you know, a couple people because of those unknowns. Um, it's not as simple as you know, plumbing, electrical, they're really set stuff, like the bread and butter, like um, you know, like the toilets, uh, like the garbage disposals, faucets, etc., a lot of electrical work, swapping panels, like even some bigger stuff. It's it's really standardized, if you will. For a handyman project, you know, you just don't know what you're getting into. And I think that those scheduling problems, especially when you're looking at someone you hired, um, like calling you up to be like, oh, it's gonna be longer, I'm gonna miss the next job, like that's a lot of stress and disappointment. You got to dole out. Or it's easier as an owner operator because you you inherently have that rapport and that relationship with most of your clients. A lot of them, when they've been in business for a few years, they get so many repeat clients. And when you add Google and all these other things, like they can be pretty selective over the jobs and the type of clients. So anyway, interesting factor there. Um, very real factor with scheduling that it shines a lot on handyman. It's it's hard, it's hard to operate on the scheduling side with the unknowns.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Yeah, it definitely gets tough. It gets it gets uh complicated at times. And sometimes it goes super well, and you can call somebody and say, hey, I'm gonna be here a little bit early, I'm knocking things out, or you got time to go get lunch. Um, but the other thing you got to kind of factor in, this gets a little bit more into pricing, but um, you know, if you're jumping around to multiple handyman projects a day, um, you know, there's a lot of those billable hours in a day that are going to driving around and you know, setting up and cleaning up multiple times, um, multiple times a day. Whereas on you know, on a longer remodel project, driving to the same spot every day, um, you set up and you a lot of times you're leaving your your tools on the job site, um, you know, so they're ready for you the next day. Um, so there's less of that drive time, less of that setup and cleanup on the bigger stuff. Um, I know that gets a little bit more into like the you know the pricing type thing, but yeah, the the scheduling, the scheduling, no matter how you look at it, it's it's tough. Um, you know, I I think you just gotta be really organized. And and probably the most important thing is good communication with your your clients. Um, across the board, that's one of the most important things, but especially when it comes to scheduling. Um, you know, if you you pull up that toilet and you see the flange is you know rotted out and you gotta replace that toilet flange, you know it's gonna take you longer, you're gonna be late or miss your next one. Like you need to pull out the phone, you need to fire off a text or a phone call to that next client and and let them know. Um, and and having a good, a good CRM and and scheduling system is gonna be super, super important as well.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

Yeah. I it also makes me think, too, on any estimate invoice, any client communications, you know, I'd almost have like a disclaimer like, hey, because the nature of our work, if our job before you, there's some unexpected stuff and we have to take care of it, it might change. Um, but you could spin that in a positive way of in the same way, if if we see things in your place, we're gonna let you know about it and we're gonna do the right thing and take care of it if you'd like us to. So there's a positive spin on that, but something to consider for our listeners. Um awesome. So I've got um running short on time here, but I've got one more um question. This is specific to remodel shops or people that are focused on remodels and they want to add a handyman division, if you will. They want to start offering handyman services. We I've had so many conversations with people that are looking to do that. Um, and then also remodel guys that are tired of remodels. They want the simpler, uh, simpler jobs, uh shorter relationships, if you will, being in the house. So it's all these variables that we covered. But what would your guidance be for someone who's doing remodels or a smaller company and they want to add a handyman division? They've maybe got a guy, you know, that that could they could tap for that. Um, what kind of what guidance would you have for someone in in those shoes?

SPEAKER_00 34:24

Yeah, I think it's a brilliant, brilliant idea. Um, especially because if you start generating those handyman leads, um you've got you've got somebody you can tap on the shoulder to bring on board to focus on that kind of stuff. Awesome. Um and also if you're advertising for the handyman stuff, you you can kind of fill some gaps in your remodeling schedule potentially too, with maybe one of your main crews can go jump on some handyman stuff. Um, you know, if there's those those scheduling gaps, um, waiting on cabinets to come in or something like that. Um, and the other thing that I wish I would have done, I wish I wish I would have done it that way, huge benefit for the remodeling side, having a handyman on staff that's doing these handyman jobs and and you know, helping you generate some more revenue and profit can also be a great asset for taking care of some of the warranty work that comes with with remodeling projects. Um, I mean, no matter what, you're gonna have you know warranty stuff that that that comes up, like you know, I oh I accidentally chipped the paint on my cabinets and we want to go, you know, fix it for them, or you know, you get some nail pops in the drywall, you gotta go take care of. Um, and that's a huge burden for a remodeling company. You're keeping your crews busy to pull pull somebody off to go do some of this warranty stuff. So having somebody on deck to to to help with that would be um would would be huge. We would get we'd get calls all the time still, even when we're exclusively um advertising, remodeling, people asking for smaller jobs, and just the way we we ended up getting ourselves set up, it just wasn't economically wise for us to go do some of these smaller projects. And I never wanted to be the guy who was like, oh, it's too small for us. Um, you know, but when you get two two crews of four guys doing bigger projects, pulling, you know, pulling a crew to go do a you know, change some hinges on a door or something or put up a ceiling pan, um, it just didn't make sense how we were set up right. But having uh having somebody on board to to do the the handyman stuff, I think is um a really, really good way to do it. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

Kobe, thank you for your insights. Uh hope all our guests had uh got a lot of value from this. Um and to recap, if if Kobe had to do it all over again, focus on handyman and and maybe dabble in strategically scheduling remodels. Um what one other thought I had for the remodel guys, or think about adding handyman, a a slight and easy entryway into that. Um, that we've worked with a few people that do this. They only offer handyman jobs to their current clients. So basically when someone has hired them or their past client list, they let them know, hey, we're now offering exclusively to our past clients handyman work. So it's a way to kind of start to operationally figure that out. So uh I want to emphasize to anyone listening, like give yourself some grace. Uh, whether you're adding handyman, adding remodel, doing the considerations, there you don't have to go all in. There are ways to kind of dip your toes in, start building processes, figuring out if it's for you, if it's for not. Um, thank y'all for listening. We'll see you on the next episode.