Episode 2 - Stereotypes, Anxiety, and Expectations (Long Version)

Check out the next episode of our youth-led Wild Way Podcast series! Program participants Caroline Welfare and Avery Godfrey talk stereotypes, anxiety, and expectations. What is it that actually makes us want to stereotype someone? How do stereotypes (even "positive stereotypes") hurt us? And what can we do to change them?

This is the full version of the episode - you can also listen to a shorter version available on our homepage.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

This is the Wild Way Podcast, where we explore the peaks and valleys of the modern youth experience. I'm your host, Alex Eipel, the executive director of The Wild Way, and now very amateur podcaster. The Wild Way is a nonprofit with the mention of providing outdoor experiences to girls to build their confidence, resilience, and curiosity. We are an outdoor recreation program, but we are first and foremost a confidence program. Our true goal is to make girls feel good about themselves, feel like they have agency and power, and that they can accomplish their goals. So this podcast will be a platform where we talk about all of the trials and tribulations of being created and teenage girls. And we can guarantee you that this youth obstacle course looks very different for the current generation than it did for us. These discussions are going to be led by the youth in our program, so we have the opportunity to see the world through their eyes.

SPEAKER_03 0:54

My name is Alex Seipel, and I'm your host. And if you are watching this podcast, then you are probably already familiar with The Wild Way. We are a nonprofit organization with the mission of providing outdoor expedition-based experiences to girls to build their confidence, resilience, and curiosity. And this past year, our program has grown. We've been around since 2021, but in 2025, we serve 297 girls over 48 days of events, and our programming is free for families in need, and we covered over $20,000 in costs so that any family can participate in our outdoor confidence building activities. So today on our show, we have two of our participants on our interview panel here. We have Caroline Welfare and Avery Godfrey. These are two of our Wild Way OG girls. They've been with the program since it really started, I believe in 2021, 2022. We have done so many things together. We've climbed together, we've caved together. So fun fact about Caroline is that she is one of our wild wayfarers now, which means that she has aged out of the program. She's 15, and now she designs and leads her own wild way excursions. Last year she took a group of girls to Bottom Creek Gorge, and we do like a naturalist hike together, which is super cool. Avery is not 15 yet, right? How old are you? 13. You're 13, but she is a very, very busy young lady, and I have a lot of respect for her. Um, she's a great climber, and she also, fun fact, I just found out today that she does she's a trapeze artist, which is uh don't be so humble. Not many people can say they do trapeze.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Not an artist.

SPEAKER_03 2:25

Well, it's art is what you what you want it to be, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Abstract.

SPEAKER_03 2:32

Awesome. All right, so today our theme, which selected by these ladies, we're talking about stereotypes, anxiety, and expectations. So let's get started. Um, in your opinion, guys, why do we stereotype? What drives people to do those things?

SPEAKER_00 2:50

I think people stereotype others or at least start like looking, like acting on the stereotypes when they need to make a really, really quick decision. Like, for example, if you need help somewhere, you're probably gonna look for someone who's in a uniform. Like, like that's how you know that they're supposed to be in that area, so they're who you can go to for help. Like, for example, I think of police officers or national park rangers, like those people who are in uniform, typically you would go for for help, if that makes sense. Whereas someone who maybe isn't in uniform or maybe doesn't look as I don't want to say put together, but it's like maybe you'd go to the person in the uniform first.

SPEAKER_03 3:37

Yeah, yeah. No, that makes sense. I mean, so well, what do you think, Avery? Leave me your opinion as well.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Like, I really agree with her, and I think it's a lot about just like making a quick judgment call on people without having to like dissect their character or like what what they do. Like you don't have to know them, you just have to look at them, and that's how they are.

SPEAKER_03 3:56

Like, so that's an interesting point to bring up because basically we all stereotype as humans, right? And it sounds like stereotypes, I mean, the main thing is doing is is is it it's about expectations.

SPEAKER_04 4:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:08

And of course, your expectations are formed through your worldview, your experiences. So I guess in some ways, stereotypes they have a useful place, right? They're not necessarily coming always from a bad place, but they can get very out of hand very quickly, and they can be very misinformed based on your your experiences in the past.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Right. The big thing is that I think that they're incomplete and that's why they're harmful. Because, like, because like, yes, maybe the kid who has an I hate math t-shirt doesn't like math. But that doesn't mean they're bad at math, just that they maybe they don't like math or something like something like that. It's like it's like st stereotypes are not the full story of a person, but they like usually and usually there are only the they're the only aspect of that person that we perceive.

SPEAKER_03 5:02

Yeah. That's such a good point about it being incomplete. Yeah, and sometimes it's totally inaccurate. Yeah. Yeah. I know for me, sometimes stereotypes, or I mean, I think for anyone, you're more likely to switch to thinking in stereotypes under stressful situations when maybe you do have to make a quick decision, or or you're just scared. So I think a lot of stereotypes, especially negative stereotypes, because we can talk about this, like there's positive stereotypes, well, quote positive stereotypes and negative stereotypes. Um, but a lot of these stereotypes are are really rooted in fear and anxiety and self-protection. Oh, this person, gosh, it first glance, like just based off the way they're dressed, they don't look like my kind of people. So I'm not gonna ask them for help.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Yeah, or like just like a much bigger stereotype. Like, like, like who do you go to with your parents if you just started your period?

SPEAKER_04 6:00

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

You go to your mom every single time. Like that, like that's who I go to. Like like I could go to my dad, prop like, like obviously, but I go to my mom because my cause like the biggest stereotype for that kind of thing is that your mom would have the products you need.

SPEAKER_03 6:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Not not it like not like not your dad, but if you if you have a mom, you'd go to your mom because she's the one who would have the products. And like that and then that kind of goes to like if it ha if your period starts at school, would you you wouldn't go to a male teacher about it? You would go to a female teacher or one of your friends who are girls. Yeah. Instead of some like like one of your friends who are boys. Like you would like why would you go to them?

SPEAKER_03 6:49

Yeah. Why would you that makes sense? That's a for biological reasons, but I do think that plays into a deeper stereotype of oh, women are so helpful. Or like so a lot of times when they're not.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

Well, they're always so prepared.

SPEAKER_03 7:01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Maybe I'm just maybe I just have a bunch of band-aids in my bag for personal reasons, you know.

SPEAKER_03 7:09

Yeah. Well, let's talk about negative stereotypes first. And we all know, like, we're talking about this stuff that I mean, it's uncomfortable to talk about stereotypes. Because we all know it's it's bad to stereotype people based on, you know, their race, their religion, their ethnicity, um all of the all of those things, their gender, um, their sex. Where do you though think these where your generation, where are a lot of your stereotypes coming from? The stereotypes you see?

SPEAKER_01 7:36

I think a lot of the stereotypes that I see, like personally, like from like friends, family, like anywhere, is people just again like making like just to look at a quick judgment call, are sometimes like I've noticed that like deeply insecure. So they like project aspects of themselves that they aren't particularly comfortable with towards other people to like make them like look bad, I think. If that makes sense, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

And then I absolutely agree what you said, um, but adding on to that, I think it comes a lot from like social media and especially like true crime podcasts. Like don't get me wrong, they're like fantastic entertainment sometimes. Sometimes I get depressed after listening to them, but that's a whole nother thing. Um, and it's like you you'll hear like, oh, it's always the boyfriend, it's always the husband, whenever whenever you know, a person dies or or something. And like then that kind of stereotype, even if even if you're like, oh, this person I know would never do such a thing, it kind of sticks in your brain a little bit. And then if you see it in other forms of media, like um, I can't think of a different example off the top of my head. Like movies, film, TV, like whatever. Or or like a specific stereotype. Like if you see that represented, that stereotype specifically represented in almost everything, then it then eventually it just gets stuck enough in your mind that you're not thinking about where it came from anymore. It just feels true. Like it's and maybe it is true that if someone unfortunately dies, the first person they police will investigate if it's suspicious is likely their immediate partner.

SPEAKER_03 9:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Um, or the person they were closest to. Um like maybe that's true, but that doesn't mean we should immediately be suspicious of every single little thing that their partner does. Because that's not like that, it's not an it's not an and statement.

SPEAKER_04 9:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

Yeah. And I think like also like a like basically every television show movie I can think of stereotypes at least like some character in some way. And then like it just sticks because it's all the time. So then you like bring that stereotype upon other people that are like similar to them. So then it just keeps repeating itself.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

Yeah, the tropes. It's like yeah, yeah. It's the East End comedy, especially. Yeah, the dumb blonde trope, for example. It's literally everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 10:19

And like go ahead. Oh, you go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Oh, well, like just everything. Because like a lot of stereotypes are definitely about like countries and stuff. Because like personally, like as an American, like when I'm traveling, because I I like travel a lot, I would say sometimes I feel like a dumb American, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Yeah, or an annoying tourist.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

Yeah, I definitely because I have like a camera and I'm taking a photo. But I know that's not true because everybody likes to take photos everywhere, but other people definitely think that.

SPEAKER_03 10:47

Yeah, and I think Americans have long had that stereotype associated with them, but I would say now in the era of social media and 24-7 news, stereotypes are sticking more than ever. And I do think there's something to these echo chambers that are created through social media that just reinforce these sort of false yeah, these false ideas of of what to expect from somebody before you've even spoken to them. Yeah. So talking about stereotypes, how are you guys stereotyped? Because there are so many different ways you can be stereotyped. I think it's important to to point out there are negative stereotypes, right? Like the dumb blonde, oh, there's they're blonde in their children, they must be dumb. Then there can also be positive stereotypes that have detrimental effects on you. Like, oh um Caroline, she's so responsible. I bet she makes straight A's. You make straight A's, don't you? Is this a stereotype of and maybe you do, but maybe you don't. Um but there's a burden that comes with positive stereotypes as well.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

I mean, part of how I've noticed myself being stereotyped is that I'm perceived as dependable. Like I've noticed in some of my classes, people be like, what's the answer? Like, what do you get? And part of the time I'm like, oh, I got this. And part of the time I'm like, I do not know. And then they're like almost surprised when I say I actually don't know the answer to this question. I haven't gotten there yet, or something. And then so and part of myself is like I feel a pressure to be dependable be like through like because because like I've set the bar for myself, if that makes sense, for being depend, and then I and then when I and even because it's a good stereotype, you know, like oh she's so dependable, but then I feel when I can't reach that stereotype, like, or like the biggest blank wash circle of that stereotype, I feel like I'm failing.

SPEAKER_03 12:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

So like even if it's a good stereotype, it still puts a lot of pressure on me to perform at that level. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 13:08

Yeah, it plays into again the stereotype you kind of brought up, like, oh, if I need help, I'm gonna go to a woman because women are so helpful, yeah. Right? And that could result later on in that feeling of like burnout and the constant need to be perfect. What what do you think, Avery?

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Like, uh yeah, definitely like positive stereotypes, but then they go like negative because the bar is so high. But also, like sometimes they're really just like generic stereotypes, and that also like leads to like basically what people think about you. Because like, oh, she reads a lot, she must be really smart. I'm like, I read a lot, but I wouldn't say I'm particularly like smart, or like, oh, she was giving me the answer this one time. She's always gonna give me the answers, and she's always gonna be right. I'm not always gonna be right.

SPEAKER_03 13:49

Yeah. Talking about negative stereotypes specifically, um, there's this term that I read recently, and I think it really sums up like the way stereotypes are just rampant on the internet. It's like outrage industrial complex, right? And how much money is made through basically like getting people riled up through headlines, right, about different groups of people. It's almost like we're at a stage where like contempt is like the new currency, right? This is how people get you to click on like Rage Bay articles, right? As they're like putting out stuff about, oh, this one group did this, and and I just feel like this generation is being exposed to a lot of anger online that's driven by stereotypes. Do you guys experience that?

SPEAKER_01 14:29

I yeah, I've seen a lot of like really like negative, harsh things about like a certain minority or like majority of people that are like it's like a blanket term. Like it's just this person is in that group, so it it's just that, like it's negative, and nobody can be different because it's just that. And like I think honestly, just like seeing like even like adults, like people you look up to and like celebrities, like execute those stereotypes and like use it in like a show, maybe they're in, or like a song, and it just drives everybody to do it.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Yeah, yeah, and then like beyond those stereotypes, it's like it'll be and it'll be about like blanket groups, right? But then if you're in maybe two different groups that are being because every group gets stereotyped, yeah, um then the person doing the stereotype will ignore the fact that maybe you're also in the group that they're stereotyping you below. If that's because everyone who's doing a stereotype will have like a group that they stereotype to be higher and a group that they stereotype to be lower. And so if you're in groups that are on different levels, they'll they'll just pick a level that you're lower in and only sing. So it's I never thought about that. So it's like you can be stereotyped, but you can also be lower on the on the scale of stereotypes. And like that's really annoying, especially when you're talking to a person who's stereotyping you in one of the groups you're in, but you're also together in a different group that's being stereotyped. And you've talked about, you know, oh, I like we hate, we don't, we don't like being stereotyped like this, and then they still be like and then they still go and stereotype the other people that maybe are part of the reason why that group is, but it's very competitive.

SPEAKER_03 16:29

Yeah, no, it is tribalism, is what you're describing, basically.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

But it's like can I not like be because you know how stereotypes are incomplete, but it's like if I'm in two different groups that are being stereotyped, and then someone from one of those groups is stereo stereotyped a different group, like that that's almost more hurtful than being stereotyped by someone who doesn't know you.

SPEAKER_04 16:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Yeah. And so like being back off of that, it's like if you're in this certain like group, because it's like really tribal sometimes, yeah, and like it's like in a group of groups, and then like you just try and put another group down because it's not your group, so they're not as good as you. So you're just gonna put them like you're gonna put down this other group, and you just do it to everybody, and it just makes everyone feel like worse. Yeah. It like increases the stereotype.

SPEAKER_03 17:22

Yeah, I think stereotyping in is essence, you're objectifying somebody, right? You're erasing everything about that person that makes them a human being, right? And you're just boiling them down to like this one common denominator that essentially you you want to do that because it makes them more predictable to you, or you think it makes them more predictable to you. So that makes you safer, right? If you just make this assumption, like, okay, um, I gotta hate going back to the blonde cheerleader stereotype because it's like just the oldest stereotype, this dumbest stereotype of all time. But you know, you go into this situation and maybe you're thinking, well, this person's probably gonna be kind of a bully because they're like this like super cool blonde cheerleader, dumb, whatever, going into that expect like that that situation, expecting a certain outcome to protect yourself. And you could be completely wrong about this. This person has so many things, a rich life full of all these different dynamics that you can't even imagine.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:15

Yeah. So on this note, how are you, how do you guys feel like you're stereotyped? Because there can be, again, there's negative stereotypes, but there's also positive stereotypes, what we call positive, um, even though they can have detrimental effects.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Well, for me, one of the ways that I've noticed being stereotyped is being very dependable. Like, you know, how we talked about earlier, like, oh, you would go to a woman for help, but because they're always so prepared. Um, but in a similar way, it's like I've noticed some of my classmates that are friends with, you know, like coming to me, being like, hey, what do you get for the answer to this question? And like usually maybe I do have the answer that they're looking for, but then sometimes I'm like, I haven't gone there yet, or I don't know. And it's and it's like, and it's like I'm so I think it's grateful, is my word. Like, oh, I'm so glad that they feel like they can come and ask me for help, but then it also feels like they're setting my internal bar of expectations higher, and then when I can't meet those heightened expectations, I feel like a failure. And it's just like so, even good stereotypes like that, it's like it puts so much pressure on me that it's hard to enjoy that I'm known for being good at something.

SPEAKER_03 19:48

Yeah. Like it ties into perfectionism.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Yeah, it's pressure to perform now.

SPEAKER_03 19:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Yeah, like I 100% agree. Like, if I maybe in volleyball, like I'll do good for like this one tournament or I'll put I'll play pretty well. And then like the next practice or game or tournament I have, and I'm not playing my best, they're gonna be like, what's going on with her? Like, she's just not doing as good as she usually is. She's usually good. She's like, she'll usually get that over the net. She usually play that to the setter or something, but like I can't, I just can't do it. So then it makes me feel like worse. And then I feel like I'm just not like maybe I like fell out of volleyball. Like maybe it's not my thing. Or like maybe suddenly I just got really bad and I'm never gonna get good again.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

And then like sometimes it's just like with the pressure to perform, it takes the fun out of it. Like, I used to enjoy doing this activity a whole whole lot, but now that people are expecting me to suddenly be good at it, every time I do it, like that's not fun for me anymore. And it's it's just like it was supposed it was and it's like I'm doing a sport because you know, exercise and it's gonna be fun. But then if suddenly the only reason But then suddenly if it's like, oh, these people are like, hey, like, why aren't you climbing your best and I'm over here having fun? It's like that takes the fun out of it for me. It's not fun.

SPEAKER_04 21:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Yeah, I a hundred percent agree with that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:16

Yeah. So so what do you guys think in terms of well, how do we help these stereotypes? How do we stop stereotyping people?

SPEAKER_01 21:22

I think like I think most like stereotypes are just foreign because like you don't want to like get to know a person, like you just want to like put that over like you don't want to put in the effort to like know them. So you just give them the stereotype that like blankets them, so they don't really have a personality. But I think getting to know people and like understanding that they're not like what they seem they are.

SPEAKER_04 21:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

Like what they seem to be is the most important thing to stop stereotypes.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

Yeah, I agree with what Avery just said, but something else that I think is super duper important is not seeing people as a group. So it's like even if they are technically in a group, you see them as the individual, not the group. So it's like it's not like so even if you know they're a theater kid, you know, you don't immediately assume that oh, they already know other lines or they're they're already doing their career. But it's like it's like if you when you stop seeing people as part of a group, even if they are part of a group, I think it helps you see them more as an individual. Because what we what I've noticed people stereotyping more and more is just groups. And people can technically fall into that group, but if you see them as their own person, then it's then the stereotypes don't happen anymore. So you could so the dumb blonde uh dumb blonde stereotype that we that we're mentioning more and more. Um like you can you can see that they're but but you don't even if like you don't see them as that stereotype group, you only see them as whatever like they're this is like you'd think of them as like that's not the dumb block, that's her name. Yeah for example that that's Sarah. And I have history class with her, and she had a good question about the Great Depression, yeah, or something like that. And like that's how you think of people, not their defining characteristics or whatever group they're in.

SPEAKER_03 23:35

Yeah, it's it really is just mental laziness, like stereotyping is just a form of mental laziness, basically. Um, and it's a hard habit to break. And this, I do believe that just online culture, social media, it makes it easier and easier for that to happen because you get caught, the algorithm is going to feed you the content that you want to see or it thinks that you want to see. So then you get sucked into this more and more. And the way to break it really is I mean, just approaching people with kindness. And you just never know. I actually I try I like to, we all think like to think we don't stereotype, but I stereotyped somebody earlier today. I was at the gym and there was a new guy in class, and I'd never seen him before. Tall dude, like athletic. I was like, okay, cool. And then he gets on the trailball next morning, he starts to sprint. Like he's running so fast, he's so hardcore. I'm like, oh, this probably this guy's probably such a bro. Like, I don't know. And I do like classes, like with the same people who come to the class every time. I'm like, this guy's like a fitness bro. He's probably gonna be kind of like, he might be rude, whatever. And I'm a gym person too, so it's terrible I stare at up like that. And then halfway through the class, I went up to him and start talking to him. I was like, hey, are you new here? He turned out to be the nicest dude. He was nothing like I thought he was gonna be at all. But if I had not gone up to him and just introduced myself and talked to him, I would never have known that. I would have walked out there thinking, like, oh, that's just like another like gym bro who thinks like he's the best, right? That's not at all what it was. And I think about how many people stereotype me when they see me and they don't even talk to me, they don't know. Um, but really kindness is does seem to be the answer. Um, and just trying to foster connection with people. Yeah. So you guys talking about expectations of yourself, other people's expectations of you rooted in these stereotypes. Like, why do you think people apply if people apply that pressure to you for a lot of reasons? But I think it's always important to remember it's not necessarily like an attack on you, it's coming from a place of like wanting to connect with you, right? Yeah. Like, do you guys feel like sometimes you're stereotyped? You've talked to me sometimes about feeling stereotyped by like your own family, the expectations of your own family.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

I mean, I definitely feel like those expectations or stereotypes come from a place of love and worry. Like they really, really want me. Like smoke like most of the people who are giving me all these expectations and stereotypes aren't my immediate family. But it'll but they'll take what they have lived a happy and successful life, and then they're really, really hoping that they I that I do the same thing because that's their definition of a happy and successful life. Even if I don't I don't want I like that's not what personally fulfill me. So I think it's coming from a place of like love and worry, if like not under not fully understanding, but it comes from a place of love and worry. But that and like that's the good stereotypes. I think I think from a for the bad stereotypes, it comes for a place more of like worry for themselves and just out of self-preservation. Like they need like they really need people need to feel safe, and the big stereotypes are what helps them feel the safest.

SPEAKER_04 27:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

So if they think that they so the stereotypes come in and it's like if you can predict what this person will do just based on how they look, like that's suddenly so much safer than this person could do anything.

SPEAKER_04 27:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

So I think I think no matter what, it comes from a place of worry or fear, but and even if it's a hateful stereotype, I still think it comes from a deep-rooted fear. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:38

No, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

And I think like also it's not just fear, it's like some people like they look upon they're like look for an answer, like from me, because like they're worrying about other things. So maybe they're like, Oh, she'll give me this answer. I don't need to worry about this, I can focus on my other things. But when I don't give them the answer, like they thought I would, like they stereotype me that I would, then they feel like they've been let down or that they've like lost hope in me. So they're just kind of like distant, or maybe they're just treating me different because I didn't like uphold them that one time.

SPEAKER_03 28:14

Yeah, that's tough. That's again like objectification of it, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:21

Yeah. Well, how do you guys deal with people who have different expectations for you? Yeah or expectations that don't align with with your values.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

I think for me, like with if it's my family or like sometimes like a really close friend, I'll like sometimes I'll communicate with that with them. Like if my parent or my parents, they want me to like get like an A plus on this test that I really do not understand, even though I've tried, like I just need to communicate with that with them and say that like I'm probably not gonna get a good grade on this. I tried really hard, it just does not make sense to me.

SPEAKER_04 28:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

And like with people that you aren't that close with that you feel like you can't really communicate with, maybe just like show them through your actions that you're not like you're not always what they think you are. And you're not always you're not always gonna be perfect. Nobody ever is.

SPEAKER_04 29:15

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Yeah, for me, um, a lot of the ways that I manage stereotypes, I d like I absolutely do the communication thing with my close family, but with like people who aren't my close family, like extended family, I became really, really good at controlling where the conversation was going. So, for example, if someone has an expectation that I go to a certain college, I don't discuss college stuff with them. I talk about the class that I'm in right now that I'm really interested in. Or um, how what classes I want to take next year. And I just don't talk about my college search with that person, or I'm careful about saying I'm still researching all my options. I don't have a specific college nailed down yet. So, and then if that person decides to continue asking, well, this place was really good, you should totally go to this place. I just I just like bluntly switch the conversation to some to something else. No shame. I'm just like, how's your dog doing?

SPEAKER_04 30:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

Like, like I'm I'm not doing this conversation anymore. How's your dog? Um, or so like some people I've noticed do the expectation thing and they do the stereotype thing because they they want to talk to you.

SPEAKER_04 30:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

So so admittedly, sometimes I just I just let them talk. Yeah. I just I'm trying to find common ground with you.

unknown 30:45

Right.

SPEAKER_03 30:46

And then and as they assume that your values are like their values. Or yeah, and and they're just trying to connect.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Yeah, and just and especially when you love them, even if maybe they don't understand you. Sometimes sometimes I wish they would do this to me too, you know. Like sometimes like if I could just ramble about an interest of mine to them, and they just sit there and smile and nod, and even even if they weren't listening, it looked like they were listening. Like, like that's so much good for me, and that's I feel like that's how you show the most love to someone is just sitting there and listening to them. So if you're if the person who's the person who's trying to connect with you over their expectations for you, I just I just sit there and let them talk because you know, if the if they're close to me, I love them. Yeah. And that, and even if I can't say, um, actually, I disagree with everything you just said, don't ever talk to me about college. Like, I can't say that to someone who I who I who maybe I love but doesn't understand me because that would make them feel hurt. So it's like, I manage the conversation, and if I can't manage the conversation, then I manage my reaction to it.

SPEAKER_03 32:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Actually, that's a great way to put it.

SPEAKER_03 32:03

And I do think this is the thing, we can be friends with people we don't agree with, and we can love family members you don't agree with. But I think you bring up a good point of prioritizing quality time, maybe necess over like pointed conversations about things. Yeah. Right? Because there might be some places that because of generational differences, you guys never quite overlap. But you can still love that person and enjoy quality time with them.

SPEAKER_01 32:25

Yeah, and I think like again, the broader picture, accepting people for like who they are, what they are, doesn't matter. Like nothing matters if you don't accept a person.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

Yeah, and then like if if even if you don't maybe agree with their lifestyle choices, for example, I think what matters most for for everything, and if they're close to you keeping them in your life, is just like if you disagree with something of them, don't talk with them about or or just love them. I don't want to say I I'm gonna say love them with their differences, not for their differences or despite the their differences, love them with their differences. Because like no one's gonna go exactly the way you need you want them to go. Um but if you love them with that, it brings you so much closer. And especially if you don't let it affect how you treat them, that is how you make them feel safe.

SPEAKER_03 33:31

Oh yeah. Absolutely. You make a lot more friends being nice to people. And you're also, if you're trying to change somebody's mind, having them like you really helps that, right? You're not gonna change somebody's mind by being aggressive with them. Yeah or combating with them.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

Or or and just and just like beyond beyond that, like so many people, I feel like, especially with the age of in the age of social media, they want to know every aspect of a person before they make their decision. Because like I know sometimes, like I'll be watching something and I'm like, oh, who's that guy? Is that famous guy a good person? Because and like that's that not not relevant to his skill or or her or their skill as an actor, but it's but like I feel like with the age of social media, people put a lot of importance on knowing everything about someone. Like there's no privacy anymore, and it's really annoying.

SPEAKER_03 34:33

Um well, it's also still distilling down to like you mentioned before you could be in different groups, but you you get distilled down to the lowest stereotype. It's like you become the the worst thing you've ever done. This is like, I don't follow this, I don't even know how to say this after his name. It's the guy from Dune, Timothy Chamalay, Shamalov, whatever his name is. I don't know. He basically got like blacklisted at the Oscars because he this guy's like 25 years old. He probably says all kinds of dumb stuff without thinking. And he made some comments saying that ballet and opera, people don't watch ballet or opera. We all know that's not true, and he probably just said that as a throwaway comment. But this dude, you would think his entire life has been distilled down to that one comment, and people are like, cancel them, no Oscar for you. And that was a lot of stress on your generation because you have to, do you guys feel like you have to like really walk a line with everything you do?

SPEAKER_00 35:23

I do feel like everything has to be a performance, especially with how early colleges are looking at people now. Like I've gotten emails from colleges starting my year this year, and I'm in 11th grade. And like, and then be and then beyond that, I feel like with like all the potentials of being recorded, even though I think that's I I think there's like new rules about that, um, it's still like I have to be the absolute best version of myself always any given moment. Because if someone notices me slipping for one second, that's how they're gonna define me for the rest of my life. Yeah. That's how it's gonna work. That's rough. Um but I feel like for me, I'm gonna phrase it how my mom phrased it, is that the only thing that matters truly about a person is how much good they put into the world. And people have different definitions of good, but if I smile when I see someone, like, oh, that's that's my festival right there, and they make me really, really happy. If they make people in general really, really happy by just being them, that's putting good into the world. And so even if they they don't go to the same church as me or they or they didn't vote like my parents, like they put good into the world, and that's all that matters. That's all I need to know about them. They put good into the world. Yeah, that's a beautiful way of saying that.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

But I think just in general, like how like Timothy Shalom, he made Shalomet.

SPEAKER_03 36:55

Shalomet, thank you. I don't ask I could have put Timothy Shalala.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

He's made that like one comment and that's like his whole career. Like he's always just like that. Like just one comment just wrecked his whole career. I think for even normal people, not celebrities, even if they say like one thing or they do one thing that's just not really normal for them, or just other people don't like like the majority doesn't agree with that's just who they are. Like, if yeah, I say something to a classmate that like maybe they don't agree with, there's like, oh, that girl, like like she likes that. Like she's not, she can't hang out with us.

SPEAKER_03 37:30

She's a little bit she's that girl, and that becomes a new stereotype, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:33

Yeah, yeah. And I think it just puts like another stereotype out of all these other stereotypes, another one to just be like neutral and never say anything like too far this way or that way, just always be neutral so everybody agrees with you all the time.

SPEAKER_03 37:47

That's an interesting concept. Do you feel like there's a pressure to be like your most vanilla beige self?

SPEAKER_01 37:52

Yeah, and like always agreeing with other people.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

And then it's like especially if you're like, for example, when I'm when I'm a wafer at the wild way, there's no way that I'm actually speaking my mind, because it's like any one of these kids could take what I said to their parents, and then their parents might not like what I said. Yeah. Or um if you're at school and someone overhears your comment about something and they don't like your comment, they feel hurt by your comment or something. Which if you hurt someone with your comment and it was supposed to be a funny comment, like that, that's a that's a different issue in and of itself. But if they if they hear that, and then I feel like there's so much focus on the bad things right now. Oh yeah. That no one ever that like all it takes is one bad moment to ruin your entire day. And like, like because you know, rage bait, clickbait, that whole thing, and like that's what people that's what will catch people's eye, like no one, no one really wants to see this person say it went perfectly, went exactly according to plan. Yeah. They want to they want to see this Karen, then that's another stereotype, came in and just and just like ruined the entire people burned. They they and like and like because that's in a way is entertainment of its own. Like it is the whole reason that some TV shows are popular is because there's so much drama in it. And I think it's hard to see the good people put into the world if all you ever get to see is what would be the headline of whatever.

SPEAKER_03 39:41

It's true. Yeah, like a stereotype is like your new headline, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:45

You're just like a walking newspaper, and people they don't want to read the whole newspaper, they just skim over it and the bold part bad part.

SPEAKER_03 39:52

That's such a good analogy. People don't want to read the whole newspaper. It is, it's mental laziness. It's like just like let's fast forward to the the meat of it, but whatever. Unfortunately, yeah, this is also again 24-7 News does it too. I I think 24-7 news is just as bad as social media in terms of like what are the industrial rage complex or whatever that people outrage complex that people have, where you get distilled down to your worst moment is part of cancel culture. And it's interesting because you're you guys grew up with that. And please do not get me wrong, there are some things that are just inexcusable that people like uh come on, like we know, like blade, like racism, homophobia, sex, like please.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

Like none of that is okay.

SPEAKER_03 40:34

None of that is okay. But sometimes people say something that is not representative of their entire personality or might mess up. We all mess up.

SPEAKER_00 40:41

Yeah, word vomit is the absolute worst because you're you're speaking before you're thinking. And sometimes, especially for me, I am thinking out loud. My thought process is out loud, and the like it's like you're it's like you're reading the really messy, like you know, like the little ice cream that you know, in like fifth first grade where you're making the five paragraph essay. Oh, yeah, and it's just like the bare bones of your idea, and that's all and it always looks really ugly and bad. Um and and like that's not your final thesis that you would put in an AP test.

SPEAKER_04 41:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:20

Like that's not what that's not the final idea, but the all but the first thing people hear is the garbled up um really poorly phrased thing you're trying to communicate.

SPEAKER_03 41:34

Do you think like that you you guys text a lot? Like, do you think that changes the way that people Yeah. Yeah, because I feel like that there's something to that, right? Like you're used to being able to like rehearse and plan out what you're gonna say, and then in like the real world, obviously a lot of us, including myself, think out loud.

SPEAKER_01 41:51

And I think also like sometimes the way that like text messages and like online comments come across, because like I use punctuation when I text. So like I'll use like a period, and then people think it sounds like passive aggressive, and it's like that I'm not trying to come across that way.

SPEAKER_00 42:08

Yeah, or like for me, it's like com like I feel like if you're looking at comments in the internet, like you cannot tell the tone in which they were said. So, like, like I like some comments they could they like that maybe they know the person the person who posted the thing personally and they're joking around with them. But if you don't know that, it sounds hateful.

SPEAKER_04 42:33

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Um and like you can't hear the tone. And for me, when I get nervous, I stutter. It's really bad. I go like I I I I I uh And and that happens less because sometimes you know you're communicating over text. So I have time to process, I have time to write, I have, I have time to write down what I'm thinking, and then sometimes like that long process is really annoying because they'll text again and change what I have to reply to. Um and then I have to delete everything, but I still get time to craft my response. And in real life situations, I do not have that time. So and like like pe like we're we're good, we're still good at thinking on our feet, but it's like if it's like if I'm nervous and it's it's so much easier for for me to communicate to let's say I'm nervous about an upcoming test, I'm so much better at communicating that over an email to my teacher than I am coming to your room and like I can can't can I have an extension to study study for this test. Yeah. Like that's easy like an email is easier for me, especially when the stuttering starts. It's just it's just way too it's like give me give me a second, give me a second. Second. I'm really nervous giving me a second.

SPEAKER_03 44:01

This is a totally different way to communicate. I will interject this though. We've been talking so much, like the negative things, like, oh, everybody's gonna get canceled and you're boiled down to your worst possible moment, et cetera. But I will say something good about your generation is that you guys actually do care.

unknown 44:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:19

Right? Like they like care a little bit too much. Yeah, well, crappy behavior isn't tolerated in the same way. No, unfortunately, sometimes people get thrown under the bus, maybe when you know they just made a mistake or they didn't necessarily mean it that way. Um, but your generation is much more intentional about making sure other people are comfortable and things are done, you know.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

And they're done right.

SPEAKER_03 44:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 44:45

Yeah. I mean, and a lot of the pressure I felt for our generation is that because, you know, like for example, climate change or global warming. Um, be because like most of the books I've seen it was or like the poems been like, oh, you know, this is this is borrowed. It's for it's for the f it's a gift from the future generations. Um, and now it feels like for us we have to fix this almost by ourselves now. There's no second chance. Earth is already halfway. Yeah. It's it's it's already ending, and we have to fix this now, and literally no one that's coming after or before us is going to be any help we have to get this right the first time. It's like an extra. Or else we burned crisis. Interesting. So you guys feel that all the time. And and especially because I mean, it's har because it's hard to see the good, but and people are doing really important things, stepping there, but we don't see much, at least in maybe maybe just my like I don't get to see a lot of the good change that's being made. Because that's not part of the outrage complex, like you know, the industrial complex, we're outraged and it's like we're so it adds to the pressure of we have to fix climate change by ourselves. Or we have to fix this really pressing moral issue by ourselves right now. We and because we've already been fed the oh, it's it's like everything that humanity has is a gift from future generations, like we it's not ours, they it's technically theirs. Um and it's already kind of on fire. Um we have to fix it the first time. We have to get it right the first time, and that extends almost to everything. I feel like even if even if like my parents have never put pressure on me, like you have to get this right the first time. You have to be willing to try it. You have to be willing to try just in general. But there's a lot of pressure with, for example, the college church right now, because that's that's what I'm doing as a junior, researching all these different colleges. Um, and there's a lot of pressure now to get into your dream school or find the program you want to do and then stick with it forever. Like you like you have to get it right.

SPEAKER_03 47:10

We talked about this at our Holland score, and you and you do not have to get right the first time. But I can see how you guys feel this way, especially not only generational pressure, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:19

Especially because on social media, all you ever see is the personal perfect. So you see someone who's really, really happy at their dream college and they're doing everything they wanted to do, and then you feel pressure like, what if I never find what I really want to do?

SPEAKER_01 47:35

And like again, the social media, it's like the people that post on social media, it's generally like curated to their best, like what they want to be on the internet. Like it doesn't show their bad side, and I think a lot of people don't see that they have things they don't like about themselves, about their life, but they don't choose to show that. And I think a lot of the like celebrities and like famous people, the people, the ones that do like showcase their bad side and like things they don't like about themselves or their life, those are often people that people don't accept. And I think it's important to accept those people and like see what they're doing is to just make other people feel accepted and make other people feel good.

SPEAKER_03 48:15

Yeah, yeah, showing that vulnerability. Yeah, guys, this is very interesting. We went all over the place. We started with stereotypes, then we went into well, I mean, that's good. We went into expectations and we went into a lot of the the generational pressure that you guys feel. I mean, unfortunately, in the age of like social media and 24-7 news, people getting boiled down to like the very worst thing they've ever done. And I really never thought about what you mentioned feeling like you have to be your most beige vanilla self in order to be accepted. Yeah. But on the flip side of that, like we said, your generation is very intentional about trying to combat these stereotypes and trying to make people feel welcome and accepted.

SPEAKER_00 48:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:56

I've seen that with you guys, and I'm very impressed by that.

SPEAKER_00 48:58

And I've noticed people placing very precise importance on making sure everyone feels welcome. It's almost like for me at least, we've seen the mistakes, or you've seen what the generations of the past have done, and we've decided, well, we're not gonna make those same mistakes. We're gonna make different ones, and that's okay. But we're gonna be the we're like as a generation, it's like we're gonna make sure that everyone feels loved and cared for because everyone deserves that because they're human.

SPEAKER_03 49:29

Yeah, and seeing people as the individual is the ultimate way to combat these stereotypes, right? Instead of being mentally lazy and making, you know, jumping right to the conclusion, seeing somebody as the the headline instead of the whole article, right? We want to get to know people on a deeper individual level. So that was great, guys. Cool.

unknown 49:50

Yay.

SPEAKER_03 49:50

Well, in conclusion, um we have a trail tip section as part of our Wild Way podcast, as one of our traditions. So this is just advice to take with you on your outdoor adventures, things to keep in mind. And would you guys both like to share a quick trail tip with us?

SPEAKER_00 50:06

Do you want to go first? You can go first. Okay, I'll go first. Um, my tip that I'm gonna share is something that my family has been really careful about, is that you don't wanna over prepare. Like that's not the right word, but it's like if it's cold in the morning, even so you you can bring a jacket, but once you start hiking, you're gonna get hot. And then that jacket, if it's like a big winter coat, you're gonna overheat. And then if you have to take all that off, and then you're just in a t-shirt and shorts, you're gonna be too cold. So layers are really important. Be like a cake, have layers.

SPEAKER_03 50:47

Be like a cake, have layers. I think yeah, having layers make sure it's breathable fabric, like wool, right? Because wool keeps you warm even if it gets slightly slightly damp. But really, if it's cold outside and you start to sweat, and then you take your layers off, now you're cold and you're wet because you have sweating. So you finding that balance.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

Yes, and then if and then if you and then heat exhaustion is a whole nother ball game. And it's almost a bigger issue in winter if you super, you know, bundled up and then you get too hot, and then you are dehydrated, and then you lose consciousness and then you die. Woo!

SPEAKER_03 51:24

Yeah, we don't want to we want to avoid it. Don't do that, guys. So we're gonna have layers like a cake.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

Right. For me, it's like it's basic. You've all heard this one, but like trying not to litter and picking up after other people because it's horrible for the environment. And like, especially today, like what you were talking about, like we have to fix climate change because we're that generation. I think what we can do as the individual is just stop littering. And again, like you might think that like throwing out like banana peels, orange peels, and apple cores on to the side of the road, and like the Medians is good, and it's like good for the environment because it's just gonna decompose and it's gonna like be good for the soil. It's not always that way because an animal, animals love to eat those cores and those peels, especially deer, and that's and then they're gonna come onto the road, the side of the road, and they're gonna maybe get hit by cars, and again, horrible for the environment, because you're wiping out the species, not a whole entire species, but like like uh you know you're making how many roads there are if there are 50 deer and there are five roads and ten and like and like all the deer are going to the same room.

SPEAKER_03 52:36

Well, that's a bit should it kill people too. Yeah. You know, if a deer hits a if a car hits a deer, that's a good point though, because it drives me crazy when people throw like apple cores and orange peels on the ground. They think they're composting or something. They're not. That stuff is not supposed to be there. That wasn't originally dare.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

And then the bears. Yeah. The bears, guys, we're not Goldilocks. That's not how this works.

SPEAKER_01 52:57

Just like picking up after other people. If they're not gonna do it, you do it. Because it's not gonna cost you anything, it's not gonna delay you to just pick up one little piece of trash off a trail or literally anywhere. It's not gonna make your day worse. It's not the only thing it's gonna do is positively infect the environment.

SPEAKER_03 53:16

Yeah, and make your day better because you can walk away feeling good, like you contributed something, made our outdoors more beautiful. All right, guys. So I just want to give a shout out here at the end. Um, we are very fortunate to be one of Roanoke Outside Foundation's project outside grantees. Um, they gave us some money to support our new adventure coordinator position. We have a part-time person coming on board soon. So that's an exciting update for the Wild Way. And I also want to give a shout out to Runabout Sports. Runabout Sports very kindly um donated a portion of their proceeds to the Wild Way from late February through early March. So if you shopped at Runabout during that time, thank you very much for helping us out. Uh, we love Runabout, it's another local women-owned business. So to wrap it up, guys, I know I just have you guys share trail chips, but real quick, in one sentence, can you guys tell me your favorite thing you've done at the Wild Way? I know it's kind of hard because you guys have done a lot.

SPEAKER_00 54:10

There's a lot of pressure. Um we I think my favorite thing to do was the fly fishing trip that we did, summer of 2005. I was a wayfarer for that trip, but I still had a lot of fun. And it got it like made me enjoy fishing, whereas before it was like something that, you know, my dad and my my brother would do, but I did not have the intention span for that activity. So I never enjoyed it as much as my brother or my dad.

SPEAKER_01 54:40

I think for me, like just caving in general, I like coming out of the cave like really dirty and like kind of care that we've been exhausted and kind of delirious because you've been in the dark and it's pretty quiet in a cave. It's like you're outside and you're really dirty and it there's sunlight and everyone's like talking, and it's just like it's kind of like a fever dream. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:03

There's a surreal. Oh, that's cool. Well, thanks guys for being part of the wild way and making the wild way as amazing as it is.

SPEAKER_01 55:11

Thank you for thank you. Yeah, for bringing the wild way to us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:16

Well, this is the Wild Way podcast. Thank you guys for listening. You can follow us on Instagram at the Wild Way Roanoke. You can share this podcast with others, and you can learn more about our programs at www.thewildway.org. Thank you.