Canyon Springs: From Promising Practices to Model PLC

Episode 11 - Paula Maeker (Part 2), Canyon Springs' PLC Coach talks School Turnaround

• Matt Gilpin • Season 1 • Episode 11

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On the 11th episode of Canyon Springs: From Promising Practices to Model PLC, listen in on the PLC journey with Canyon Springs as we work to be further recognized as a Solution Tree National Model PLC school. This week we finish the conversation with Paula Maeker, author, expect on school turnaround and Canyon Springs' PLC Coach, as she discusses adult accountability when working to improve student learning, who she turns to for PLC coaching and turns the tables on Canyon Springs by asking her own questions. This is Part 2 of a 2-part episode.

References:

PLC 4 Questions Flowchart - W. Richard Smith

Learning by Doing

Literacy in a PLC by Paula Maeker


For more information on or about this podcast, contact Matt Gilpin:

mgilpin@sssd.k12.ca.us

SPEAKER_01

Okay. So we haven't had one of these pre-show introductions since episode one. But like episode one was our first one ever, this is our first ever part two episode. So a little context for anybody just joining the show on this part two with Paula Maker. Paula Maker is an instructional coach, author, and an expert on school turnaround. She is our PLC coach at Canyon Springs, and you are about to be dropped right back into our conversation with her. When we left her at the end of part one, we were talking about vertical alignment and committing to the essential learning outcomes within a student's assigned grade level. We pick up with her right back in the middle of those thoughts, right after the introduction. Welcome to the Canyon Springs, from promising practices to model PLC podcast. I am your host and the principal of Canyon Springs Community School, Matt Gilpin.

SPEAKER_02

Let's play this or that, seventh grade team.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Would you rather have them write their name in the top left-hand corner with the date double spacing? Or would you like them to be fluent readers? Go. Yeah. Which do you choose? Because it would be lovely. And here's the other problem about that's not a learning goal. That's not consistent. That's a teacher preference that doesn't have anything to do with outcome, that has everything to do with compliance. And so I think sometimes they'll look, I call it a vertical wish list instead of vertical alignment.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

They'll be like, you know what? I wish. I wish that fifth graders actually came with ratio, proportionality, um, and being able to graph all of wishing, go ahead. How's that working out for you? Because that isn't, it's not a wish list. It's a must list.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

At minimum, if they're gonna step into my classroom, what can I not overcome? And I can certainly overcome where to turn in something or where to put my name on something.

SPEAKER_01

And again, I use that example not to put anyone down, but just the same concept. I want names, Matt. I want names. No, and I don't mean like that, but just the same concept of like, well, within you could have the same example within your own campus of, hey, when you cross from third to fourth grade, this is what we do.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I'm not asking fourth grade.

SPEAKER_01

There's not 26 of you anymore. Now there's more of you. You're the big kids. And and but no, if you leave third as being a master of third grade, you're gonna be so set up for success in fourth grade.

SPEAKER_02

That's right. And I'm not gonna ask fourth grade teachers to tell me what third graders need unless the fourth grader has studied the standards, the learning progression, the vertical articulation of it, because then it becomes, well, you know, it'd be nice. I'm gonna show fourth grade, hey, here are our standards, here are our essential progressions, here's how it directly relates to you. Do you see that connection? Are you um supportive of this being that trajectory? Is there anything that we missed within our third grade realm that that you would think we'd need to go back and at least if it's not essential, that you'd like us to overemphasize as they get closer to fifth grade standards? That's vertical articulation. But giving them a list of stuff, and I know it's you know just an example, but really there are silly things. Like kindergartners should not leave writing in complete sentences independently. It's not even a standard, it's not a real thing. That doesn't show up until first grade. So, yes, I've I love that some first grade teachers say, you know what we need from kinder? They need to be reading all their CVC words, they need to be writing in complete sentences, and they need to be able to um do two-step word problems with simple addition and subtraction. Wouldn't that be lovely as the Broadway uh musical goes? But um, but it's not appropriate. It's not part of the vertical progression, it's not part of the appropriate expectation. So vertical articulation really does. Cammy, um, one of the members of our guiding coalition said yesterday, she goes, you know, I'm really obsessed with vertical articulation. I don't know if she were used the word obsessed, but I feel like that's appropriate. I think that's appropriate. But I really loved how Cammy talked about it because she was like, I really wanna know that they have that strong foundation, and I really want to see how it builds because it's almost like she didn't use this analogy. But as we were talking, it's about picking up the baton. Here I've got this. I've got this. Let me hold this, and then I'm gonna coach you a long way, and then I'm gonna hand it to you, and you're gonna take it to the next teacher, and then we're gonna hold this together, and so that it's always being handed off in such um, in such a uh meaningful way. It's it's just so easy to build from it.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. And again, going back to Cami Sundi, I happened to see her this morning when we walked into our meeting room, and you you were there was there was primary teachers with you yesterday, and I happen to see her reading some of the questions that they had left behind because she is hungry to see. She's a sixth grade teacher, she's been on this podcast before, so we can talk about her. And um fair game. That's fair game once you've recorded. And um, but she's hungry to know, like, oh, if you master this and you master this method, it'll make my life like that. That is something she thinks about a lot and talks about a lot and is hungry to go see, even though she will say, I don't want to go teach, like I'm not looking to go teach first and second grade, but I want to know what you're gonna master.

SPEAKER_02

Let's not take it too far.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I want to know what you're gonna master so we get there. Okay, I want to ask you another question. Okay, because we met you two years ago. Um, and uh you know it was my birthday the day I met you. Did you know that weird thing?

SPEAKER_02

What?

SPEAKER_01

It was my birthday, and I only know this weird fact.

SPEAKER_02

You're welcome. Happy birthday. What else could you have wished for?

SPEAKER_01

Okay, I only know this weird fact, too, because it was my very first year as a principal, and uh I didn't really know, I'd forgotten I was learning schedules, and I didn't know it was sixth grade panoramic picture day, and I happened to be wearing that really weird Spider-Man meme shirt. So now my first ever sixth grade panoramic picture is me standing next to a bunch of sixth graders in this Spider-Man shirt.

SPEAKER_02

I know, but that tracks.

SPEAKER_01

It just tracks.

SPEAKER_02

Like it couldn't have been more.

SPEAKER_01

That's not my question. It's just a weird fact of how I know that that's because there's an there's a picture staying.

SPEAKER_02

Wait, so it's March what?

SPEAKER_01

No, it's April. April, my birthday Sunday. But um, because it's been almost uh tears. But that's besides the point of what I'm getting to. But in that time since we've met you, again, going back to one of your catchphrases or however you want to say it, I don't feel like I heard you say in the beginning, um, you know, potential is none of our business, proficiency is, but that's you, you, you are, you're living that now and talking about where did that come from and how did that become such a phrase for you that you are leading your teaching with?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I just sort of um I'll tell you it's sort of a long story, but basically I humiliated myself in front of 1700 people in San Antonio because my team was at a PLC conference and Rick DeFor in his session, he would put up high levels of learning and he would say, I want you to turn for all. And he said, I want you to turn and I want you. What do we mean by high levels and all? What I want I want you to talk about that. And so, you know, I'm like, my team were in it. You know, we were back row escape early for lunch people when we started this conference. And it we ended this conference with sitting in the front row, please sign my forehead and sharpie. Like it's the first time we ever heard a conference that was really built for teachers. Yes, kids are the beneficiaries of our work, but the PLC process was actually designed for the professionals in the work, which we'd never heard before. It's always do more for kids. You're not doing enough for kids. And then we went to this conference, we're like, are we doing enough for you? Or wait, are you doing too much? So anyway, Rick DeForce says, um, it's this, you know, it's it's day two. We're like in it now. We're PLC junkies. You might as well put us on the circuit at this point. Um, haven't even read the book. Um, and he goes, What do you think all when we say high levels? And so my team, you know, because now we're basically associates after 12 hours of the institute. He was like, Does anybody want to share? Well, I'm like, of course we do. We're the rock stars at this conference now. Like, we're your proteges. I know you don't know us. So I'm the idiot that raises my hand because my team is like super supportive and they're like, pala, blah. And so I raised my hand. He goes, Yes. And I said, Well, you know, I'm trying to be very, you know, like academic and scholarly and not like a rowdy fifth grade teacher. And I said, Well, you know, it really depends on a student's potential. And every student is gonna learn at high levels, and we have to determine what those high levels are. It's based on individual students. And I think I have just basically blown his mind and made him rethink his whole educational like career. And he said, anybody else? And I'm like, why? That was perfect. And then he was very gracious about it because he just let other people say, but what's fascinating is it wasn't the only person that humiliated myself because a couple of people are like, Well, you know, every every high level, it's different for every kid. And then it was the biggest gut punch, one, because I was embarrassed because I really wanted to impress him. But two, he said, high levels of learning has nothing to do with students. It has everything to do with standards. It is grade level or better. And if that's not what we're going after, then we're expecting things of students and they'll meet our expectation every time. And he he explained um John Hattie's research on teacher estimate of student achievement and the power behind whether or not we believe all students can learn at high levels, we're right. So if you think there's no way this kid's gonna learn, research shows over and over again a student and teacher can never overcome the assumption that a student can't learn. So, of course, that got us talking, and and and we used to say all means all. Um, and then another speaker, Ken Williams, at the time talked about um ripping labels and why are we paying attention to these level labels? And he said, labels become a self-fulfilling prophecy. And then another person, Dr. Sharon Kramer, talked about learning is required and why would we excuse students from learning? What's wrong with us? And um, so just all of these people that were taking Hattie's research at the time on teacher estimate of student achievement, and I get really frustrated. Like I don't, I've been in this work long enough that there are places where I can't let you see how frustrated I am. But if I see that things are happening in a way that isn't benefiting kids and I, and I've and and it's because adults won't move forward, I get really frustrated. And something you may not know, this is insider information. There are times you will never know this, but there are times I go to my car and I cry. And I get in after serving a school, I just cry. Or I, you know, like what could I have done? Like, I'm leaving so much on the table that these kids are not gonna get. And what could I have done better? And it was after a very frustrating moment. Um, and I had to be back at the school the next day. And this this was a group of teachers who had not yet invested in a process or system that could work. And they really just didn't want to, whether they were exhausted or they didn't have the understanding why or how, for whatever reason. Um, the principal never came to the school. He would call in sick every time I had a coaching day with them. Um, many of the teachers, if it was their day to meet with me, I ended up meeting with subs. Or I also, because I was being paid to be there, I would sub. I remember two days in a row, I was the ISS coach because they couldn't get anybody in the room. And when I walked in, they're all on headphones and I'm like, oh no, we'll be learning. So I just started teaching. And I think just out of desperation and like begging people, just begging them to take a chance on kids and to trust themselves. They were talking about, well, these kids and these kids, and you know, some of their potential. And I just said, that's none of our business. We are not making that our business. You know what we're gonna make our business? Getting every kid to and through grade level proficiency in these three things. We only had three things. And from there, I just sort of kept reminding them potential, nope, potential is not our business. We're after proficiency, and then it just sort of just became this mantra that I used. But I this work is so much about influence, but it's also it's 50% influence, 50% technical. But the part that I don't think people understand that might be the hardest is begging people to care.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And to remind them that there is a child on the end of this story, and we're the narrative, we're the authors of that story. It's not the parents, as much as we would love for that support that may write a chapter or two, but we spend more time with their children than they do.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And if we're gonna write the story of a student's academic outcome, we're the authors. We've gotta, we've gotta give a darn. And that is part of this process that I'm still growing in, that I I'm still working towards is asking people to care.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And it's interesting, because again, we have responded really well to that mantra, that phrase. And and so from that moment of frustration that you've created, and I gotta imagine if because it gets quoted around here a lot um when someone speaks a certain way, it's kind of like almost our reset. And um to just remind people, and and it's we always give you credit, because Polymaker says, Right. So we always give you credit, but it is that reminder that that you know, saying, Oh, but I'm sure they like the potential, it just isn't our business. And Cammy was you'll hear Cammy say it and Jessica Tobin say it in different people. And it it it really was uh a phrase, like a chain a phrase that changed how we started thinking and talking. And I gotta imagine if we did it, other schools that have heard you say it or other teachers, and it it really does hit. It really does hit when you when you say it. And so I want to go back to a little try to keep going down that train of thought because from your San Antonio story and the names that you said, and then you know, the there you are our PLC coach. Oh, nice. And you are everybody we come to you and say, open the door. Like we need to know a little bit more about grading, we need to know a little bit more about assessment, and you'll you'll point us in that direction. Who's your PLC as you continue to learn more? Who are you turning to?

SPEAKER_02

So in the beginning or now?

SPEAKER_01

Um Tell me the whole story. Oh, okay. There's lots of time on this recording. We can do like a three-part series. It's fine. Here's going.

SPEAKER_02

So when I was five, when I drew it was it was Miss Patterson. Um, no, really interesting. So obviously Rick DeFour, Becky DeFor were so open. And here's these celebrities. I mean, it was like going to a, you know, an uh who's who do the kids know now? Who's Taylor Swift conference?

SPEAKER_01

So chillages happen and it's a highlight, and I don't know any of the people. There were people.

SPEAKER_02

There were people and they were cool.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um, and they know their music. It was like going to a concert, and you know, we felt so famous. And then Rick and Becky, uh, Dr. uh Bob Aker was there. Um, so all these people who were published and well known in the work were like, here's my email.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

We're like, are they kidding? Like, do they really mean it? And they really meant it. When we were like, it was like we we crafted the email and like my my my uh uh reading partner was with me at the same time and we're asking about common formative assessments and when they should happen and should they be district made? Because you know, we're all up on the yeah, they shouldn't come from the district. Rick DeForce said he was our polymaker said. Um and we were like, should we send it? Oh my God, is he really gonna read it? Is he really gonna respond? And 24 hours later, he said, Not only is this the the the thinking behind it, hey, I've I've given you here's an attachment of some of the research behind that if you need some talking points, and here's a reproducible from learning by doing that might be helpful. And I didn't have a coach. Yeah, I didn't have a coach, but I had a place where I could go to be supported. And then I just honestly, there's so many people that that I learn from every day. I will say this sounds so cheesy. I know it does, and I know everybody has to roll their eyes right now. It's okay. Do you know who teaches me most about the process? The kids.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Seeing the results of it, learning from how they respond to the work. Where did this standard work for them? Where do they not? So I think right now, where I'm learning most about how to get better at this work, it's from how kids are interacting with the learning. But when I think about people that pour into me, I mean, I'm just so lucky, Matt. I'm so lucky because I've got a mentor. Um, I've got two. And they're actually brothers more than they are mentors, but I've got a family. And family sounds weird because it implies dysfunction. Uh, I got a community, a very close community. So Mike Maddow is my partner um in the RTI work along with Luis Cruz as far as as as far as like just maintaining the RTI structures and honoring that work and leading that forward just from a lead associate um angle for for Mike. Mike teaches me more about how to reflect on this work. It's the times that he asks me to be quiet and really think things through and then come back to him that I think I I am so grateful for because in this work I want to fill every moment. I want to be at capacity, and I don't have the luxury of having someone ask me to really think about something and then get back to them. So Mike, I think is that person that pushes me more than anyone. Luis teaches me about how to present. He is magical in front of people. He's brilliant, he knows the work backwards and forwards. But having this sort of messaging system and learning the nuances of how to do that, I hate presenting. I hate keynoting. It's a tough field. I hate it. It's just weird.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um, and and so he's taught me so much just a little bit more about craft. But then I've got these people like Nicole Dimitch and Katie White and um Bill Farreter. I've Bob Sanju is one of my buddies. That when we talk, it's like when you and I talk. Like we would sit for hours and we don't even know it because we have such purpose and engagement. Um, I would say some of the women in this work, in this field who have lifted each other up are pretty incredible. Um I'm thinking of a few associates that we came on, and it was questionable whether or not we would ever be able to be associates because we hadn't been principals yet when we were brought on. But the Jen Deinhardts, the Jackie Hellers, um, the people who are still living this work and we're still in classrooms and we're still teaching and we're still coming back together and be like, okay, how did that land for you? And what did you find here? And hey, have you ever worked with a team that only has um uh dual classes? They have combos, but there's only one per grade level. Um, and there's only four teachers on the campus. Tell me how you do that. And so I think we still learn by doing. Yeah, I think the greatest teacher still is, how's it going? What's next? What did you learn? What can you carry forward? What do we need to rethink? And I love because Mike is always challenging me. He was like, Listen, this work was never meant to be put on a museum shelf. He was like, How do we take that next step? And what I love is that Mike is always encouraging me to say, hey, what if we tried? And how could this now evolve? And Paula, what does this mean here? And being asked to think about that, I think that's what pushes me the most. So I'm just really lucky to be surrounded by people who want to pour into me. And I'm really lucky that I got out of being a cocky, arrogant fourth grade teacher who thought nobody needed to, yeah, to being this person who now feels like the only way I have value is by people adding to it.

SPEAKER_01

It's so interesting because through your work with us, and so much akin to so much of the story that you just told, and from all the people that are pouring into you, and kind of, I don't want to say, I don't know if it's a unifying your message or unifying your impact, or kind of making the like you just said, have you worked with a the dual immersion school? Have you worked, have you done this work with an international baccalaureate school or or these other schools that have other definitions? It's it's almost connecting learning across states, across the country, and really making so much of the structures and systems be impactful and yet tailored to individual schools. And so on a small scale, again, meeting you two years ago and starting your coaching work with us, we have become more of a unified district. I don't mean K-12, I use that word now twice, but like not the California, not the California unified the real unified. But that like we are going through it so much more as nine schools and learning alongside each other and connecting as principles. And then you see it now when our teachers from other sites get together, they're speaking in a similar language, they're pouring into each other. And to go way back in this conversation to my second grade teacher that I was giving a hard time, I actually gave a hard time to a first grade teacher, Ashley Mateus, who you've heard on this podcast before, wrote some amazing assessments. I was on her case for not sharing them. And then, but also the second grade were amazing. They were they were really and they were just attractive, too. They were really.

SPEAKER_02

Good, they were also good looking.

SPEAKER_01

They were also like, Wow, kids should just see this page. This is really good. Not only the data we get from it, but we all color print this. Talk about the visual audio. We will use our color ink to print these. That's not Jessica Toba National Matez, don't come to me to color print that. We can't afford that. But um, but to kind of go back to it is I heard a comment from our second grade teachers that makes me think about and Elizabeth Gutierrez, and then her teacher name is Carolyn Davenport, and they were talking about sharing assessment. And again, the sharing wasn't like here, go take this assessment. Second grade teachers from across the campus yesterday were talking about forms of assessment they use to get what data and just to start that collaboration process. And Carolyn, and she's gonna be on here soon, so I'll talk about her. And she was like, I just don't know what we talked about. I don't know if it's ready to share because it's not perfect yet. And her partner, Elizabeth Gussiera, said, but when we give it, somebody might look at it and say, if you did this, it will change the whole assessment and it could get better. They can pour into it. And so I think you espousing that with all of the amazing authors and people you just talked about pouring into you to make you as a product and coach better. It's modeling what we are receiving and starting to turn into as a professional learning community or whatever you want to call it there, whether we're a team of principals or a community of them, to improve then for our teachers to start working across district, thus unifying better quality of instruction for our students. It's really interesting to see that connection be made.

SPEAKER_02

And I wonder, so I have a question for you. Do you think it's because of the PLC process? Um in the way that there's a structure to do that now. Like it's not that they couldn't share, but it was more planning and what do you have and what are you gonna do on Friday? Or if it was anything like me, sometimes on a Monday I'd roll down, I'd run down to the hall and be like, what are we doing this week? What do you have? Um shamefully, but I'm being real. I mean, that's there's some weeks that we just weren't planning. Do you think it's because they've been given the space and system and permission to do that?

SPEAKER_01

I think all of those words, and again, I to quote people in in that we see, I think the there's always been dedicated time. Some of the time's been tailored. That was one of the first things you you said when you came in here was hey, you can't be a PLC and work through this process if you don't have protected time to be together. And so that's been a two-year journey as well, in terms of what that looks like. And frustratingly, and it just is what it is, um, sometimes finances dictate the time that can be spent together. And we work through that and it's it's evolved. But um for in the beginning, and I can do for myself as a teacher, I really only knew how to collaborate, right? To do that, like right, do you plan together? Yeah, it's hey, I'm gonna do this worksheet. Do you want a copy of it as well? Yeah, or hey, um, I've been a part of teams where we had leveled math groups. So then what are we not collaborating on anything? Because I'm teaching math at a different pace than the room next door to me, and we're not checking data because uh walking into the room, all the students in my high math class who we were very successful, of course we were successful. Like I'm I'm proud of those moments, but I'm like, of course, Joshua nailed that test. Like, of course he did. And I felt really good about it. And um Thank you, Joshua. Joshua was fantastic, he's probably doing really well right now. Um, but um quick aside, I have to tell you this. I'm a very competitive person, and I'll get to my answer. So when we I was in a part of a leveled math group, I'm very good friends with the teacher who taught fifth grade at the time. I was the high math teacher in fourth grade. He was the high math teacher in fifth grade, and we had a lunch bet back when you state for the state test, but before Casp and SBAC, and I said, I can get more perfect scores on the math test than you. And he's like, I'll take that bet. I lost every time. It took me five years to realize because the kids who got a perfect score in mine got a perfect score in his, he was just at a couple. John, if you're listening, you're not. But you bought me enough lunches. But I feel like there was a pattern. Going back to what you were saying, though, is that I think it has given a structure in terms of what to talk about. Going all the way back in this conversation to question one, what do we want all students to learn? We're still collaborating around that. And if we only talk about that every Wednesday for the next several years, I still think we're doing a really, really beneficial service to our students by gaining clarity and gaining clarity. Jenna Oikawa, the principal at Golden Oak, who was on the last podcast, um, she I think she has said the word clarity 300 times in the last four days that I've seen her. That is is everything, right? It it's everything is coming back to it. So I think to go to your question, why we're becoming more connected, it's because we're having more clarity of what our conversations should be about and the time spent together about, because it has paired off some of the things that we should talk about. And um, I I have and you you hear reference to it, is we run a principles book club on a book of topic. You know, right now we're doing behavior solutions.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, I thought you were doing significant impact.

SPEAKER_01

We did um, we have done three books. We did Simplifying the Journey by Bob Asanju last year.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, you my buddy.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we've I've seen him speak. I haven't met him.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, he's amazing.

SPEAKER_01

Um, but we loved Simplifying the Journey, and that was a great entry point for us. So again, um, going back to it, if you haven't read it, it was a really great entry point when we were learning what some of the steps were. It was everything. Yeah, we still I still reference back of like, okay, what's the next one?

SPEAKER_02

I forgot that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we did that one last year.

SPEAKER_02

Like I wasn't intentionally giving me giving him a shout-out earlier because you have the book. Like it's so cool.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. No, so we remember that was our first one. And then we did um the gosh, do we do time for change? Yes. I think we did time for change. And then this one right now, we're doing the Hannigan work, Behavior Solutions, Behavior Academies. And um, I got lost in the title of the books into what my point was, but that's okay. I'm sure it was a really good point, and we'll get there. But I think what that's done though is give a common conversation about how to talk about what it is and to solve a problem that's essential and not, oh, and I know what it was. And I I proposed this book club, and I was very open with my principal friends about it. I proposed this book club to them because I was tired of spending time talking about independent study. I was tired of spending time talking about the managerial side of being a principal. That's fine. I can do that. That's not inspiring to me.

SPEAKER_02

What kind of trash bags are you ordering? Because that I will never forget this conversation at a principal's meeting. Because the ones that we're getting are really expensive and they tear at the bottom. I thought, are you are you kidding me?

SPEAKER_01

And again, there's no, I don't mean to tease. I mean, not the trash bags aren't important, but but uh yeah, I mean, and so I it gives so going all the way back to it, where it comes, I think it gave us just a flow chart of things to talk about that mattered for student learning. And that's so inspiring. And it's I don't know how to talk about anything else now.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and also with that clarity, um, to quote Jenna, but just also overall, as a district where you all are coming, with common understanding comes common vocabulary. Yeah. With common language, common beliefs start to form. When common beliefs start to form, that's when your practices and actions align to all of that. So, you know, the language and the commitment, there has to be clarity around clarity around it. It's why Bob Marzano's work on vocabulary. Vocabulary is the anchor of both the production and consumption of learning.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

You have a shared vocabulary with a shared purpose, and now that's starting to shape shared practices. And I think that's how it's all coming together.

SPEAKER_01

And it's really, and I and we heard it today, and again, not to call any principal about, but I never I get I don't want to say sad for them because that's very dramatic. But when Canyon Springs has had going back to that perfect storm, we were identified as a school in need of support and improvement, and with that came some financial resources, which opened the door to you and opened the door to training, opened the door to a lot of knowing, not as much doing at first, but a lot of knowing. And so then some of my principal friends will say, like, oh, we know we're a year behind Canyon Springs. And I get, I don't ever want anyone to feel that way. But what they're doing is attacking the needs of their campus at the pace in which their campus needs it. And that's not a year behind anybody. Well, but that's what they need.

SPEAKER_02

But also I think there's a difference too between attacking the needs and slowly avoiding needs. Not that, again, not that slower are, but um, sometimes we can use, well, we're just going slow as an excuse to maybe not do the work in a way that we're accountable for it. Cindy Pilar, who was on your podcast, um one time we were talking about I was really frustrated because I was like, gosh, these have been caps people for four years, Cindy, and they still don't have essential standards. And she said, Well, you know, Paula, I hear quite a bit that some of the principals are saying they're still trying to decide on essential standards and the teams haven't worked that out yet. And that's why they don't have assessments. And she said, Do you know what that is? A politically correct form of resistance. Stalling the work means I'm not accountable for the work. And I thought, gosh, isn't that brilliant? Because we can't, yes, every team, every campus is at a different place. But you'll also hear me stay say, where you are is absolutely fine. Wherever you are right now is fine, but you cannot stay there.

SPEAKER_01

That is a polymaker go on.

SPEAKER_02

The floor is lava. The floor is lava. Yeah. And I think that's the the that's where if we're thinking by team, by teacher, by school, it is absolutely fine to say, my team isn't there yet. My team isn't where Canyon Springs is yet on this piece. Then where are you and what's your next move? Because you gotta move. And I think that's the trajectory, the momentum, the sustainability that moves instead of stalls. Yeah. And if you're stalling, it's because either you don't know how to do the work or you're not feeling confident yet in taking that leap. Um, but sustainability, you only get there by taking another step forward and taking another step forward. So wherever you are is fine. You just can't stay there.

SPEAKER_01

And that's what and that's what I think is so exciting about the common vocabulary amongst my day-to-day colleagues.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

You know what I mean? That we there is a common vocabulary. There is a like, oh, you're you're you're implementing it that way. I've spent time more time on their campus just walking and learning from people than um I I don't I think I ever did in any capacity of an educator at any time. Is just, let me see what your tiers look like. You know, and it's been wonderful. And it's it's been really fun to be a part of that.

SPEAKER_02

So let me ask you a question. Um, do you think right now on your campus, 99% of our faculty could explain what a common formative assessment is? Like they have the vocabulary. They know what it's like.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I mean, I pause because I I immediately was like, wow, how accurate. Yeah, you'd have various levels of accuracy, but yeah, they would they could definitely say what those letters mean and the the overall all purpose of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And could all of your teacher teams talk about a unit assessment, sort of an end of unit. This is we're gonna capture some learning at the end of a unit.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, I think we do sometimes conflate CFA, a common formative assessment with a common summative assessment that's formative for some and summative for others. I think we conflate those sometimes. I've heard people say that, but yes, the difference between the two, I think we could describe.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. So what I just asked you to do was tell me shared understanding, shared vocabulary. Now I'm gonna ask shared practice. They understand, they've got the vocabulary, they're probably even working towards building and understanding um what that means to craft it for learning. Do you have every team has data aligned to those assessments?

SPEAKER_01

Well, you know the answer. No, no.

SPEAKER_02

It is, I'm but I'm but I'm trying to make a point.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. No, and your point is valid. And I think there are pockets of that data, but what we are not, and I I hope this speaks to your point. If not, just tell me I'm wrong and make the point, anyways. I don't, we have we're not public with it. Yeah. It's not a transparency behind it. And no one's hiding it. It just isn't public. I haven't held them accountable to be public with it. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02

So that's just an example of wow, we've done so much work. We have shared clarity, we have shared shared understanding. So now the floor is lava. Let's build shared practice. And from that shared practice, deeper understanding, deeper clarity, deeper commitment. It just gets woven into it. And then it's not even really a conversation about how anymore or what it is. It's just part of how we roll. And that is that level of sustainability that I'm excited for you all to get to over the next year or two. Um, and one of our goals, of course, is to be recognized nationally.

SPEAKER_01

In the title of the podcast.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, yes, it can't just be we're moving that way. Like the floor is lava there as well. Um, and I think this is a really important part of the shared understanding. Of my question would be why do you think we couldn't have the national recognition of model professional learning community without the assessment practices that build our response to learning? Because you can't respond to what you don't have information on. And so I think that would be a really great question to ask our guiding coalition, ask teams like, why do you think that makes sense? Because if we understand what it is, do we understand why it is so critical to the mission that we've created for ourselves?

SPEAKER_01

What's really interesting is we've talked a lot about data over the last couple of days, and that is a huge, you know, um, you had you had done some work and in kind of demonstrated some some PLT practices and and ending meetings in um what was it? It's it's it's glow, grow, and go. Yes, right? Yeah. And so our go is really data, but it's not specifically data because I I have felt very confident for a couple of years now in the data that drives tier three. And and we're real easy at putting kids in the below grade level class. Yeah. And and that's there's there's no and we've been very public with it. Um, and because it and we always felt confident, and I I don't mean to ever say anything, but it was student-centered, student names. Oh, you need this, and we got that, and we've gotten a lot better at being targeted towards skills and floor is lava. And Lynette Vermulin, who you've heard on this podcast, is a is a brilliant mat our brilliant math Tosa. And I've been in her classroom where she's just kicked a student out and said, like, you got it, go back to class. And can I clone her? The student's just looking, like, what do I do? And she's like, but you're good. I've seen you do five in a row. You don't need to be here. And um, so in that, so those practices are are really in place. But what's come to light over the last 36 hours, or you know, it's probably come to light, I've just opened my eyes to it, is not as transparent or knowledgeable or public with our tier one data. Like the the big picture of on that essential standard, I taught it. Are we ready? What does that look like? And that is our go. And um, and so leading into yes, our goal is to be a model PLC because titles are fun, flags are fun, and and I want that, but it also be means because student learning has been sustained and improving for multiple years on years on years on years. That's really what it means, and we won't get there without the tier one data.

SPEAKER_02

No, because the whole point of collaboration and ensuring we ensure what essentials.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um, how do we do that through information and data processes that that we learn from and that we share with students so that they can invest in it and they can build the process with you because we know the power of students investing in that like goal setting and goal attainment, progress monitoring. The the Rick DeFor used to call it the linchpin. And I thought that was so interesting because he said it's what it's what brings it all together. And I used to push back a little bit and say, but I really think it's essentials. And he was like, Well, of course, but you can have all the essentials you want. You can you can be in your classrooms focused on essential standards, but how can you ever figure out organizationally if the promise is good for every scholar, regardless of teacher, or is it only good for the scholars to get the one teacher who's made that commitment? How do we know that it's an organizational promise if we're not looking at data organizationally? And he's not wrong because how do how do we know we're successful? Because we see the evidence.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

He used to say all the time, and I don't know if this is offensive to people, but I'm gonna quote him. He used to say, In God we trust, everybody else needs data. And it and he was saying it in a way like, listen, there are some things we just hold to be true.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But when it comes to student learning, you have to have evidence because the evidence is what we respond to. And the whole point of the essential standards process is what's essential? Why is it essential? Did students learn it? If they didn't, it's essential. So now we respond in kind. If it's essential and they have to have it, then what will we do about it? And the only way to learn from that is show me the data and not the grade.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

The evidence of learning, the information on exactly where the student is and where exactly they need to go next. And let's form a coaching plan together.

SPEAKER_01

And going back to it, it reminds me of uh, and we were talking about it earlier, and I don't, again, we've been talking all day. I at this point don't remember what was recorded and what wasn't. And so that's okay. And so, but I was talking about um my own son. This was not recorded. So I my own son is in seventh grade and he evolving into the grading practices. Uh, I'm an elementary guy, I live and breathe elementary, and so being the standard space grading, and I think that is our next step. And what I care about is not, yes, I want to report your grades, I'm a super competitive person, but I really want to know. I'm always begging him, like, bring your test home, bring your test home. Can I see it? Can I see it? He happens to have educator parents. There's a lot of students that don't have educator parents, and it's our it feels like it's our responsibility to report in a way that is digestible for parents. I don't know where that comes from in terms of our conversation. It just led me there that I want to make sure a step for Canyon Springs is to start reporting on student learning in a digestible way for parents to then be a part of the process as well.

SPEAKER_02

Right, because parents what it parents are investing as well. And some know how to do that, some don't. But what information do parents need? There's no information, and your kid has an 89 versus a 91. Where there is information is hey, your scholar is so good at writing, they do such a beautiful job expressing, they have a strong claim, they're they're doing all these things right. I really love how they're communicating through writing. One area that we're gonna work on is task analysis of math problems. To me, as a parent, that means so much more than my kid has a stamp on some piece of paper that says a B, or my kid has some stamp on a piece of paper that says an F. What is meaningful both to parents and students is here's where you are. Here's how we're gonna get you to where you need to be. And when you get there, we're gonna celebrate it and we're gonna set another goal. That's meaningful. And the reason parents have side eye about it or mistrust about it is because what's the system we grew up in?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

You learn to play school or you're not a great student, one or the other.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And compliance doesn't mean learning. And grading can often be about compliance. Averaging is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of in elementary school. I don't know why we're still doing it. And I'm just gonna challenge this conversation for Canyon Springs as well as if we're averaging grades, we're not a professional learning community.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

It's the antithesis of why we do what we do.

SPEAKER_01

Well, you gave the example too, is that if we're focused on student learning, their first attempt at it, of course, it matters, but it matters in what we're gonna do for the second attempt. What are we gonna coach to get to the second attempt, not in terms of uh of the reporting or grade? And um, and so uh again, I I want I want to lead us here and say that what you just talked about in terms of of supporting and parents and what can we celebrate because we want to celebrate the student learning um and in making people proud, um, we definitely at Canyon Springs in the cheesy cheesy way. We work to make you proud because we know that when we make you proud, our students are also learning because you're holding us to task, you're burning our bridge, and saying, where's the data that supports that? And so when we have those moments, and I often put our teachers in the hot seat in front of you and and just say, get over here, like I did say, Mateus, get over here, like get over here, show what you're doing, because those moments of pride are motivating and they mean so much to us. And I just want to conclude uh today by just saying thank you.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, I love that. And I will tell you, um, I will celebrate as specifically as I challenge.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And if I do celebrate, it's meaningful. It is not fluff, it is not something I'm not gonna tell you what you want to hear. And so please know that when there are celebrations, they are hard-earned, well-earned, and kids win. And it's my honor. And I love being a part of this community. And I always think about too like every time I get out of the car, or I get into the car and I cry, or I get out of the car and I smile. My clients are students. Like every time I walk in the building, the reason I can hold steady and the reason that I can stand in the discomfort and in the challenge and in the and in the maybe resistance sometime. is because I know what students deserve and I know that that outcome is more than possible for every student that we serve. And if we lift up teachers and support them, the kids win. And so um I I thank you guys and I love coming here and I can't wait to see what's next. Because the floor is lava. Absolutely. But also you are highly competitive.

SPEAKER_00

Yep.

SPEAKER_02

And um so sometimes uh sometimes part of of the process is slowing down a minute to get really great at something because some things are essential for us as well because less is more for us in this process as well. So it's an honor. I'm grateful. I'm gonna make up things that you guys stink at in three years so I can just keep coming back.

SPEAKER_01

Keep coming back. We always love to see you. Thank you. Um thank you so much. We are recording at a school so if you heard any background knowledge background sound we apologize for that. There's another day of coaching uh tomorrow. So it is a school night so we need to kind of move on. So turn to your PLT for the next steps in your PLC at work journey and we'll see you out there you can find more information about this week's episode in the podcast description the intro and outro music provided courtesy of the Signors of Marseille and podcast cover art provided care of Jolby shut the door down to you