Canyon Springs: From Promising Practices to Model PLC

Episode 15 - The Canyon Springs CAPS Team, Kami Sunde and Jesseca Tobin, talk Collaborative Site Leadership

• Matt Gilpin • Season 1 • Episode 15

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On the 15th episode of Canyon Springs: From Promising Practices to Model PLC, listen in on the PLC journey with Canyon Springs as we work to be further recognized as a Solution Tree National Model PLC school. This week, join half of the Canyon Springs Guiding Coalition, or the CAPS Team, Kami Sunde and Jesseca Tobin, as they talk their collaborative leadership style, the difference in their teacher leadership approach today compared to two years ago, and what next steps they are excited to see at Canyon Springs.

References:

PLC 4 Questions Flowchart - W. Richard Smith

Time For Change by Dr. Anthony Muhammed and Dr. Luis Cruz


For more information on or about this podcast, contact Matt Gilpin:

mgilpin@sssd.k12.ca.us

SPEAKER_01

Good morning. We hope you are having a very, very good start to your learning day. Welcome to the Canyon Springs from Promising Practices to Model PLC podcast. I am your host and the principal of Canyon Springs Community School, Matt Gilpin. Okay, today we are so fortunate and lucky to have returning guests, but back here for the first time together. And to really quickly kind of summarize where we're going, this is the first of our three episodes season finale. We make it sound much more grandiose than it is. But over the next three episodes, we are going to be talking about kind of steps in leadership within our school and our district organization. And so we're going to start here today with Cami Sundy and Jessica Tobin. You've heard them both on the podcast. They are our caps team. If you're not sure what CAPS is, go back to episode four with Cindy Pilar. But the California Principal Support Network and the structure of our district is that we get to send both myself as the principal and two teacher leaders. So Cami Sundy and Jessica Tobin are both teachers here at Canyon Springs. On top of that, they are members of our guiding coalition. They are the CAPS learners alongside of me. You heard Cammy, I believe it was on episode six, to talk about some of the structures of site leadership here at Cameron Springs. You've heard Jessica Tobin talk about clarity in terms of what we want to do and defining learning along with our first grade PLT. And to really bring this home, if you go back to Cami's episode and we talk about Cami, what do you need to have to make it happen next? And what do you really need for leadership? You said, I need Jessica Tobin. So welcome to both of you for being here today.

SPEAKER_00

Thanks. Happy to be back. It was so sweet. Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you. The energy you're bringing, Jessica Tobin, is wonderful right there. And so, okay, so here's really where we're gonna start. Normally on an episode, we talk about like what PLC questioned of the four. Like, what do we want all students to learn? How will we know they have learned it? How will we respond when learning has not occurred? And how we respond when learning has already occurred. But this is really a step into site leadership and where you're driving our staff, which then has an impact on our students. And so I'm not necessarily gonna ask what's your experience with PLC. If you want to know about both of them, go back to their episode, their individual episodes. And I'm not gonna ask about what PLC question we're talking about, because I'm pretty sure we're gonna dance the dance on all of them and talk about how we've addressed it. But I want you to start by thinking about this. We together went to our first CAPS meeting where we started talking about the PLC work journey. We'd met a Polymaker for a few, and then we walked in about two years ago. The school year's about to end, and now we have completed two full years of CAPS training, hearing amazing speakers such as Cindy Pilar, Polymaker, uh, Dr. Luis Cruz, and there's more that I'm forgetting. What has that changed for both of you in regards to how you are working to lead King and Springs as teacher leaders?

SPEAKER_03

I think we both just look at each other. There was. There was a they just turned heads. I mean, I think I think about pressure.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

Which is silly, but I I think at first it's at the beginning it's exciting, like because part of it is that um your peers trust you enough to take that role, but there's also pressure because you don't want to let anybody down, you want to do it right. And it's new. And now it's like, oh, it's been going really well for the past two years. Okay, don't mess it up now.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, there's definitely pressure. Um, in the beginning, it's a brand new process, so you don't know what that's going to look like bringing it back to your staff. We're excited about it like right away, but then we were had to also prepare ourselves for different kinds of reactions, bringing it back to staff. Um, and I think we knew that it was gonna be a process to get our staff to buy into it. Um, so I think it was just the pressure of um creating ways to really bring back effective um strategies and things that we're learning during caps back to our staff and also have them buy into it too.

SPEAKER_03

When it make sure it was not just that the next thing. Yeah, and that there's gonna be something after that and then make sure they understand that it's gonna be this is it. Yeah, this is what's gonna work for us, and this is what we can keep and keep doing.

SPEAKER_01

And I love it. And if you go back to last episode, it's what Jackie Rivera, part of our third grade team, talks about the movement. You know, like this in trying to go that movement. But I want to go back to that word pressure that you bring up. You brought up right off the bat. Do you feel more pressure now as a teacher leader, now that so many of your colleagues have more depth of knowledge? Maybe that wasn't the right way to use day-okay, D-OK, but like, you know, I don't mean like that. I don't mean a D-O-K level four understanding of PLC, but I mean like just have more knowledge about the process, the the four questions, the action steps. Do you feel more pressure now or when the slate was blank and it was like, hey guys, we're starting this together?

SPEAKER_00

I think when the slate was blank, because for Cammy and I, we were like, this is new for us. So when you're trying to bring things back to a staff without fully knowing yourself everything, um, there was a little bit of that pressure. But as everybody started to buy into it, as we started to go along through the process, I think her and I, I mean, I speak for myself, but became more confident. Um, and we saw the change that was already happening in our schools, and we saw other teachers becoming more invested into it, and we're like, wait, we're not doing so bad. Like we're we're doing good. Like, you know, we're filtering through everything we're learning and we're taking those most important chunks and we're bringing it back to our staff. And our staff is welcoming it, they're um seeing change within their classrooms, and I think that there is now this momentum. Um, so it's less pressure and I think just more motivation at this point.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

I was gonna say now.

SPEAKER_01

Do it, dude. I love it.

SPEAKER_03

But I don't think it's an external pressure, it's it's from me. So I I think that now that we're all more knowledgeable, there is more pressure that I put on myself to make sure we stay ahead of that like wave. Because you can't expect uh a leader or teacher leader to be on the same page exactly. We have to stay a little bit ahead of it, and so there's always that kind of internal monologue of like, okay, it's like I mean, I teach sixth graders, so usually when they ask me things, I know the answer. But you know, if you're teaching like high school and they ask you stuff that is like Yeah, you mostly want to try and stay ahead of it.

SPEAKER_01

I appreciate that you think about sixth grade. I think I walk into sixth grade, they could ask me a question. I think I'll get back to you. Like, I'm not a hundred percent sure on this.

SPEAKER_03

But that's good. The the honesty builds trust.

SPEAKER_01

It does build trust. But I want to tell a quick anecdote that just happened today, and I didn't know we were gonna go there. So you've heard her before, Alyssa Arroyo, another member of the Gun Coalition. I was walking past the copiers today, and I just said that, like, how you doing, Mr. Royal? And she said, I'm so excited. I've got a data collecting template, and I'm just gonna, I'm prepping notebooks for everybody for next year. And all I felt in my brain was a little bit of pressure. And I said out loud, I said, Don't ever stop. But all I hear in myself is I better learn more about what you're doing right now so I can help you lead it because that's what's happening around you both. You guys talked about kind of a blank slate of professional learners, but now they're also racing. Uh, have you had a moment where you're like in a conversation with somebody and you're like, I think you know more about like this specific moment, you've dove dove in, you've gone deep into a learning ladder, a unit plan, an assessment that you weren't a part of that conversation. You're like, I want to help lead this, but right now I have to learn about this.

SPEAKER_03

I know I think especially because uh Mallory Langley's on my team and she's part of the LLT. Yeah. Um, I think that comes up a lot with us, but we have a good give and take where we can do that. Um but yeah, there are moments where I'm like, oh, okay, well, I'll learn more about that.

SPEAKER_01

And again, Mallory Langley, you heard her on the podcast earlier, such a hungry learner, also one of the lead learners we have on the tiers of behavior that we have going on. And so, yeah, she's gone deep on that learning, which we as a team here, you guys have it. You're you're gonna take part in that next year as part of the training. So it's very interesting. Okay, so are you approaching delivering information differently now, two years later, than you were two years ago? You know, after CAPS one, now that you walk into a CAPS meeting and know what they're about, know a little bit, you don't know what content to expect, but you know, okay, I'm gonna deliver this, we're gonna hash it out, we're gonna figure out what people need and bring it back. Is there a different approach between the two of you?

SPEAKER_03

Um, I I think we've always approached it from like some level of assumed competence. Like we always talk about how it's the structure that's the problem. It's not us, it's not the school itself, it's the whole structure of school. Absolutely. Um and so that I don't think has changed. We still come at our the other teachers with that assumption of a good intent and also a level of competence that they already have knowledge.

SPEAKER_00

And I think when we started the process, we were really motivated to find creative ways to bring it back to our staff. So that's when the PLC newsletter came. And we've really just continued to proceed with the momentum of the newsletter. It was really successful off the bat. So I'm I'm proud of us for continuing it. I think our staff members look forward to it, whether it's the word searches on the back or the crossword puzzles. Um, you know, I think it's really effective in delivering information. And I think um for me personally, I was a little bit nervous going in front of a staff in the beginning. It was only my second year here. Um, and so I, you know, um it's for Cammy, I think she was more comfortable because she's been here longer and people know her um well. And at that point, I was a little bit nervous that going in front of everybody, letting them know, well, this is what we should implement in our school. And I was only here for two years. But I think that's grown a lot. I think through the process, um, people have begun to trust us um to help them, to give them all the information that we're learning, give them what's most effective. Um, and we do it in a fun, creative way, at least we try. Um, and I think our doors are always open and you know, everybody knows that they can come to us. And I think at this point, um it's rather us rather than us just presenting like we were in the beginning, now it's almost open discussions when we have our PLC newsletter. Everyone is involved with our presentation just as much as us. They're asking questions, everyone's raising their hand, sharing ideas, and I think it's become more of like a whole group meeting rather than just presentations like it was in the beginning.

SPEAKER_03

It's funny that you said that because I I you're you're talking about it. I'm like, oh yeah, it has. Because I think at the beginning we very purposefully created that space for them to have discussions, and now we don't have to.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, you did. I remember the first couple of times you so the PLC newsletter is something you two crafted as a creative way, a different format to bring back professional learning that you two had. Last year it was a focus on like the five vessels, uh, the five not you know essential aspects of the PLC at work journey as presented by Dr. Lee's Cruz. This one has been much more focused on kind of the design and five assessment. And there's five or six uh issues of each PLC um newsletter. But you're right, the first time or two you did the presentation thing, we're like, okay, turn to your partner for three minutes, discuss this, then come back. And this last one, which was a phenomenal newsletter, um, you didn't do that. It just went.

SPEAKER_03

Naturally. And people were like, Can I add something? Or I have a question. So it's it's nice that it's like you said, it's becoming more of a conversation. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

And okay, so that takes us to our first piece of research per piece of research here. It's from the book Time for Change, Four Essential Skills for Transformational School and District Leaders, um, written by Dr. Anthony Mohammed and Dr. Luise Cruz. And if you have that book in front of you, you probably don't, but if you do, on page 74, I'm gonna read a little bit of a longer quote, but it takes us to the concept of how to get external learning back to your staff. And so on there it says, to generate commitment to actions meant to change critical aspects of the school, transformational leaders must first develop the precise setting where individuals can gain a collective aptitude to do the right work. This must take place in a setting in which learners engage socially, which is said by Michael Fullen. In other words, those expected to carry out change must not only hear the details surrounding the change, but actually learn all the complexities of implementing change initiatives. And then Michael Fullen goes on to write this incidentally, focusing on information rather than use is why sending individuals and even teams to external training by itself does not work. Leading in a culture of change does not mean placing changed individuals into unchanged environments. Rather, change leaders work on changing the context, helping create new settings conducive to learning and sharing that learning. It's a lot to say there, but I do want to talk a little bit about where your perspective is in terms of you've had a lot of external training, and how have you, what role do you see yourselves, and I want you to give yourself some credit on crafting a setting that was open to the complexities of what you were learning.

SPEAKER_00

Um that's a good question. I really like the part where it says leading in a culture of change does not mean placing changed individuals into unchanged environments. Um rather, change leaders work on changing the context. Because when we first learned in our caps, it was like schools have great people, just like not great systems, not effective systems. So we came into this knowing we have amazing teachers at our school, but there's just some systems that need to be changed. So our focus was let's first kind of create that cultural piece, like this is something that we're gonna embark together, this is gonna be a journey together. We have all the right people, we just have some systems we've got to change. Um, and that was really nice because we do have incredible people here. Um, and when we laid the groundwork of this is the systems that we think are gonna be the most effective for a school, this is the impact we think we're gonna make here with these systems. Um, all of the staff, I mean, I think from the beginning was very welcoming and very open. They knew that changes systems needed to be changed. Um, and it's great because luckily we do have the right people. We just had to bring back that information that was really gonna change our school into a setting where we could make those changes and really make our students more successful.

SPEAKER_03

And I think I think that having us be primary and upper helps a lot because we're able to the part that struck me was information rather than use. Yeah. And to me, like and I assume you both are like this too, but like when we go to a training, I'm constantly just thinking of like, how is this gonna look in my classroom? Absolutely, what's the next step of action? What am I gonna do? What can I do? How can I use this? How's it gonna work best for my students? And I think that because we do that and then we bring that back with us, we're not bringing just the information, but we're giving exemplars and you know, really talking about like either how it could work in a classroom or how it already has worked in our classrooms.

SPEAKER_00

And it's great because we'll both be on computers, and she'll do like just the plain learning ladder, and then here I'm throwing bears and galaxies.

SPEAKER_01

That's the difference between ever getting a friend. You build a plain one, she had some bears and stuff to it. We are the kid and throwing bears.

SPEAKER_00

I'm thinking of planets. You were also gonna create a can I mean, don't let her take them from the I did a lot of graphic design. I do have to give you credit. I always wanted to look on TBT to see what ideas they had for like newsletter templates, and then you're like, no, I got it.

SPEAKER_03

I was like, we can design one better.

SPEAKER_00

And I thought, of course, being bill, and I was like, she's got some primary in her. Don't put her in primary, but she's got them in her.

SPEAKER_01

But I want to go to that. You're not, you're not. But I want to go to that because part of what we were, I mean, again, we we we prep for all of 10 minutes before we record these. And one of the one of the phrases I said out loud that I didn't know how I was gonna bring into a question, but there is a real collaborative leadership between the two of you. Where as we've again, I want to give Canyon Springs credit. You've heard so many of them on the podcast, if you're listening, it really is just this bevy of incredible people that are that are leading the learning for all of our students that come here. But there have been moments of, I don't want to call it resistance because that's not what it is, but like, I don't fully understand, so I'm not quite ready to dive in. And I've seen you two hash that out of like, because there is a dynamic different between an upper grade group of teachers and a primary group of teachers. And it's not just putting bears on a page or building blank pages, right? It is, but but what what is that like to be able to turn into somebody who has literally the same credential? I don't mean it like that, but a drastically different role on the campus in terms of the psyches of psyches of the people they work with. What have what has that been like to be able to lean on each other?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's so funny. I feel like I know. I think from the beginning it was interesting. I think we really had this like yin and yang. Um it was kind of like seamless. I don't think, I think right away she would have an idea, and then I'd think, well, what does that look like in primary? And while I'm we were just talking about this before the podcast, but while I'm speaking, she's thinking of something in upper grade. And while she's talking about something in upper grade, right away I'm thinking of something primary. And we both bring that to the table, and then we decide, okay, do we need a commonality here? Can we be different between our upper grades and lower grades? And we just always um I don't know, I feel like we always f figure out a plan. Um, we a tight versus loose really helps us. We're like, okay, what should we be tight on as a school staff? But what can be loose between lower and primary? And we always kind of come up with a plan that way too.

SPEAKER_03

I'm gonna go further back. Go um your first year here, we just ended up being like kindergarten sixth grade buddies. Oh, how funny is that? Oh, that's right. And so we already had like uh a casual working relationship. I think if we hadn't had that, it would have started a little differently. Yeah. Like maybe a little more awkward.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

But because we already had that baseline of like shared kids and shared experience with our two classes, I think that helped at the beginning to kind of it is interesting how that happened.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, I've only had one reading buddy teacher, and I married her. So I understand that, right? I stopped having reading buddies after my first year of teaching. So you can begin cat besties after this. But it goes to the quote that we just said, and I wonder if it's the same dynamic right in the middle, and we just read it. It said, this must take place in a setting in which learners engage socially. And so again, that socially doesn't mean we're always hanging out together, but that there's a comfortability while talking or spending professional time together that then it allows the deeper conversations because it is obvious there are also very much moments in which you guys disagree, you know, and that is still also change-making for our staff.

SPEAKER_03

I think neither one of us is afraid to just say what needs to be said or say our opinion. And I appreciate that you are kind because I can be very blunt sometimes, and so it's helpful that it doesn't become kind of butting heads and just as a conversation.

SPEAKER_00

Well, and I love how direct you are, like it just works because um, you know, I I think she's just she's very like straight to the point. She's very um and she's got this calming factor too. Like she's she's very um, like I think a lot of our staff comes to Cami for a lot of like advice and things like that. Like Cami's very wise, and I think um with her being direct, um, it it's so helpful because sometimes when you are too kind, you know, like, oh, well, what a we know, I'm worried about how the staff's gonna do here, or I worry, and you're almost too worried about the feelings while she's like, This is what we're gonna do, you know. If there's resistance, this is our plan, but we're moving forward with this. And um, I she just brings a lot of helpful things to the table that don't come naturally to me in leadership.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I I we compliment each other.

SPEAKER_01

I think so too. And and I said this on a previous episode. I don't know, I don't remember which one, but but one of the elements, Cammy, that I very much respect about you is a work-life balance. And and this is kind of a personal comment towards you, but also like you have hobbies that you chase, you do this and you balance that well. And so then when you dive into something, it's like, okay, this is worth time. Because Cami is committed, and so and and and you're saying, I can do this, this would, and it's making the impact, because that is where you put energy. And so observationally, with you the leader, I've said, okay, if if I see Cami diving into this, that means the staff is ready to dive into this because you carry that clout.

SPEAKER_03

I think the the book we read the first year really helped with that too. Um just personal the essentialism. Essentialism, yeah. Um that helped a lot for me professionally and personally to really hone in and really set aside some other I I was always that yes person. Every committee is like, yeah, I'll do that, yeah, I'll do that. Yeah, I know one of those. Yeah, her name her name, her name's Jessica Tobin. Yeah, um, and I think that experience of reading that as a staff helped really hone in what was important and what things that I'm like, I don't I don't need this. Yeah, that's not a focus for me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So and you do that for me too. Like I want to dive into it all. And even Cammy's like, well, wait, let's do this first, let's do that first. Like you've had an impact on me too. And it's so funny because I'm gonna take that back further. And I remember when I had the PLC idea, but I was like, I don't know if Cammy's gonna like it. You know, Cammy's like, what's essential? Like, is it gonna be too much? But I'm like super excited about newsletter. I remember walking around the caps room looking at posters, and I got the courage. And I said, Cammy, what do you think about a PLC newsletter? Like, we could do this and have some ideas. And I was thinking, okay, this is the moment. Either Cammy's gonna be like, you know, which could just work, right? Or she's gonna be like, let's do it. And I was more of the eh, just because you know, it might be task, you know, tasking, and I mean it might be a you know, a big ask. Um, and she literally looks at me and goes, That's a great idea, let's do it. And I was like, This is amazing. Like Cammy's on board, this is gonna soar. And it was exciting.

SPEAKER_01

And so, but I want you to go back to that moment because hearing you talk about having the courage to come up to your teacher leader, your partner in this process, and it's still needing to well up the courage to bring up an idea. Has that changed the way you've approached colleagues that are maybe a little nervous to take the next step, maybe a little nervous to share an idea with you two as such lead learners? Or, like you talked about, Kimmy, staying a step ahead. But we have colleagues that are doing their own research, going to trainings, coming back, experimenting, taking a risk. Does it has it changed the way you've responded to them, knowing that it took you a little bit of courage to tell a friend?

SPEAKER_00

Well, in the very beginning, it took a lot of courage with her. Now I could just tell her anything. But you know what? It was the very beginning. But no, I'm very um encouraging of other coworkers. I have Miss Mateus that we talked about on the previous podcast, who has these incredible CFAs that she created. And um, as far as I was aware, you guys were in a meeting and she had these, and you guys were talking about CFAs, and she had great examples of it, but she was afraid to bring it up, even though it would have been amazing for her to share because so many would have learned from it. But I think uh you also mentioned um at another time too, like we wait till things are perfect. Like some of our colleagues don't have the courage because they're still trying things and they're not sure if it's right yet, and they're too afraid. But when you look at it, you just are like, this is amazing. So I think our colleagues are starting to take those steps. Um, I know she ended up showing her CFAs, um, and it was amazing, and she got the recognition that she so wholly deserves. Um, but I think that it's allowing all of us to like be a little bit braver in the steps that we're taking because we know it's gonna benefit other people.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. Okay, so that takes me to our next quote from Time for Change, and it's on page 67. Um, and if you're looking at the book, it's kind of near the top, and it talks about collective ability to problem solve. And it I think it goes into some of the courage that you're talking about that it takes. And so it right there at the top, it says, um, similar to the way in which children draw pictures by connecting numbered dots, transformational leaders help individuals connect the dots between why they need a change initiative and how a collaboratively discussed change will actually improve the organization. As we mentioned previously, schools are complex organizations that move at a fast pace. This makes it difficult for educators to find time to reflect. Effective leaders recognize the fast-paced context in which schools exist and find intentional ways to communicate why schools and need change initiatives. Then they masterfully persuade others to connect and maneuver this newfound reasoning toward an action plan. And so I bring this quote up because you just talked about Miss Mateus and having these and what is the action plan? As you lead your colleagues and connecting the dots of the four PLC questions into the action steps, and this week we're doing assessment. How do you feel? Are you intentional about leading them to action plan, or is it more encouraging? Are you finding yourself more as motivators, encouragers, and less as like content teachers than you were a year ago? Or is that still kind of a balance, or is it still heavy content teachers towards them?

SPEAKER_03

I think it's gonna sound I I'm not trying to sound pompous.

SPEAKER_01

Please do.

SPEAKER_03

The 5-6 team I work on. Yeah, for sure. They're all very up and with it incompetent, and I to the point where sometimes I feel guilty because it's it's not necessary for me to be like, oh, I'm gonna lead this team. It's not necessary. Yeah. We just work very well together already. Yeah, and you say that that's not a negative towards any other team. You just happen to be in the middle of a that's what I mean. I don't want it to be like, oh, other teams. No. It's just that we happen to be in a place with the four of us that it works really well. Um, and so sometimes I'm like, am I am I not doing enough leadership stuff? Right? Like, I don't, it's not as necessary on an everyday conversation.

SPEAKER_01

So does that roll into like, I mean, again, no one's taking away your your natural leadership ability and then the training that you've had to go into leadership, but it looks different. You're not sitting at a table saying, Hey, I just learned this, let's go. Is it so it's more refining within the actions?

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

She shakes her head. Yeah. She shakes her head. I nod my head. What primary? Do you have thoughts?

SPEAKER_00

Um, primary, I think in the beginning it was very content heavy. You know, everything was new. And I think mostly primary, we now know the steps we have to take and we're working on them, but we're just like in the refining process. It was our first year where I feel like we were living through everything, our annual budgets, our learning ladders. And so now I think we're kind of living it and we're refining it. And it's a lot more, I think, motivation and encouragement rather than content because we kind of know what to do at this point. There's always more that we're going to learn and do, but we don't want to move ahead until we have solidified what we've learned this year. Um, so I think we're all working on that. It just takes time. Um, and it has to be at the end of the year, so I think all of us can use all these things. Yeah, let's put in content.

SPEAKER_01

We are recording this the Friday after school before Memorial Day. So give these teacher leaders some credit that that they're here. But no, I wonder if that's true because we have so much umbrella knowledge. And I mean by that, like so much overarching that it takes time to execute that and then find the areas to which we need to learn more.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I think this year has really been a year of more refining. Definitely. Like I obviously with our my own team, but then looking around the room when we're kind of all together in the same room and looking how everybody's looking again at their essentials. Is there something that shouldn't be here? Is there something else that should be here instead? Um refining the annual budget. Okay, this year this didn't work. Do people have enough knowledge now to be able to do that fine-tuning? Whereas before that first year it was like, oh, we're building all these things from the ground up and we're not sure exactly what it's gonna look like.

SPEAKER_00

And specifically the common language. We talked about this at our last staff meeting, but not only the content that we're learning, but if you walk around our staff, all the language that's being used, vertical alignment, rigor, cognitive levels, um, you know, um data analysis, all of these term, you know, terms that we've learned through CAPS and we've brought back and defined. But now teachers are using it in common language, and it's just kind of amazing because I think we started just from so behind. I mean, we we weren't saying the words we're saying now. We weren't talking about vertical alignment, we weren't talking about matching the rigor levels of our common formative assessments and our common seminative assessments, and now our teachers on our staff are so naturally speaking it. And I even like squealed when I heard like one of the teachers say vertical alignment at our table. I was like, did you just say vertical alignment? Yes, they did. And you know, everyone was nodding, they all knew what she was talking about when she was mentioning vertical alignment. So that's been really neat, sissi, too. You could see how much content everyone's absorbed and how we're putting it into practice.

SPEAKER_01

So I'm gonna ask you a question, and I want a little pomposity on this one. So I want you to give yourself some credit. Is can you give yourselves credit for the role you played in developing that? Can you identify that? We've talked, we talked a lot about this year. We focus on a book called Impact Players. And by We Focused, I put a quote on it every week. Cammy makes a face like maybe she didn't read it. It's an audiobook, just listen, it's wonderful. But um I read parts of it. But but here's the thing about acknowledging your impact that you make and how to how to amplify that impact. Are you able to stop and pause and realize that over the two years what impact you had on that common language, on the the foundation of knowledge, the ability to refine? Can you vertically verbally right now give yourselves credit?

SPEAKER_03

I can accept you giving us credit.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, that's fair.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think sometimes it's hard because you're like, but we still have this much to do, we still have that to do. So I think it is, it takes intention to appreciate where you are, not where you still need to go. I try to stop myself in the present and look back and see how far. Uh, but sometimes I think our inclination is okay, but we've got this next and we've got to do this. And so we're always focused on next steps, but you know, we are learning as a staff to really focus on those celebrations.

SPEAKER_01

And there are fo there are always next steps, but but even but I think you just talked about, you just told an anecdote uh about so just this past Wednesday at our staff meeting, you presented the most recent PLC newsletter, and we've talked about PLC newsletter a couple of times now. Uh, this one was phenomenal. I'll link it in the podcast uh uh description if you want to take a look at it. But not only do you craft it and you write it, but then you present it. You don't necessarily read word for word, but it's like, hey, if you want to know more about here, it's in this article, this little bubble or whatever. Here's a great quote. And as you present it, you you mentioned that a colleague came and said, Do you guys practice? Like, is this something that you get together and while you collaboratively make it? I don't think you're behind closed doors practicing your presentation of it. I don't know, maybe. I don't have time for that. You don't have time for that. That is not one of the essential actions you are taking. But so that's what I mean by modeling the natural, non-practiced way of talking about it. Can you see that then people picked up on that?

SPEAKER_03

Picked up on what?

SPEAKER_01

The natural way to talk about the PLC at work journey based on seeing you two do it.

SPEAKER_00

I think we're just so used to talking to each other. I think that some things are just go unnoticed by us. That's fair. That's okay. I think that's um because we we talk in these settings a lot together, and so I think we're just so used to it. Um, it is kind of funny to hear how other people like view us. Um, it's always fun because it still makes me a little nervous.

SPEAKER_03

Like, did that go okay?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, 100%. I walk away. Even you say how phenomenal phenomenal that um meeting was, and I still walked away, like, did I say everything I needed to say? I'm like, that person's looking down.

SPEAKER_03

Are they are they doing something else? Are they doing the crossword?

SPEAKER_00

I'm hoping they're doing the crossword.

SPEAKER_01

Do you feel that way when teaching your class? Like, oh, that student's looking down. I'm personally.

SPEAKER_03

No, because there's a hierarchy in a classroom. It's true. It's totally different to present to your peers because if a kid starts something else, I'm like, what are you doing? Stop that.

SPEAKER_01

But uh no, no, no, I think that I think that's fair. I think that's fair. Okay, so I want to, I mean, but again, the the listeners, the last minute and a half of awkwardness was these capsules not giving themselves credit. And I want to say this out loud. They should give themselves credit. Uh, they danced around saying, Yes, I believe I've made an impact. And yes, they have made a drastic impact on the city.

SPEAKER_03

I will phrase it this way. I am proud of how far our school has come. You should be. That's amazing. And I am proud that we've been a part of that.

SPEAKER_00

And I don't think we could have done it without our staff. I think our staff has played a huge part in allowing us to be able to do what we've been doing.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely, absolutely. They've seen you two take risks, they're willing to take risks and that work together. And that comes to that collective setting to take on there. Okay, so that takes me to another quote on the same page that we just talked about, page 67, still just down at the bottom. And it says this. Thank you for having us. Somebody looked at it. Thank you. Uh so it goes like it. Oh my god. Okay, here we go. This will really timestamp the episode. Uh all right. While we're clearly going to be popular with our 10 listeners in five years, this will really time stamp it. While we agree that effective school leaders create a vision of what must occur to accelerate a school or a district's effectiveness, we contend that staff members will first require clarity between two points. Number one, the organization's current reality, and two, the realization that they, not just the leader, must help formulate a plan of attack. And I bring this quote up to talk about a little bit of the vision of kind of where the school is and the clarity precedes competence that we know and what role you've helped to create within clarity, but then also talk about, I would love for you to talk about your, which is your evident ability to kind of assess a current reality and then turn that into a plan of attack and to communicate those two points, be it publicly at a presentation or privately within PLT moments or informal conversations and kind of moments to bring people back to reality. Cause including me, because I get very ahead of myself and I'm like, we're gonna do it all. And it's like, well.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, that's the first thing that came to my mind actually, because I feel like that sometimes too.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Like I I feel like Cassandra sometimes in ancient Greek mythology, where I'm like, this is what's gonna happen, and people just it flies by, and then I'm like, I told you. Yeah, like we had a very heavy focus on just reading for several years in our district. And I said, Hello, we're we're getting math. Yeah, and our math scores as a district head. Yeah, it's gone down. Um and so and so that whole like feeling like I need to keep pushing is uh something I feel sometimes too.

SPEAKER_00

Well, and being in the classroom with our teams, we hear a lot of their concerns, their worries, um, things that they're trying to work on. And so I feel like her and I are kind of like, you know, we're like the soul ground soldiers. We're we're with we're going along with everybody, you know, we're not you know, telling teachers what to do without being in the classrooms ourselves. We're we're in it with them. And I think that allows teachers to trust us more too. And then we come together and her and I will talk. I'll say, Oh, primary, you know, we need to work on this, and she'll say, Well, you know, upper grades doing well with this, and we'll kind of try to talk to um with to each other about it and along with you, and then I think together we tend we tend to plan that form of attack. And um, we always try to start with like the almost the sandwich method, you know, this is what's going great, this is what we hear we might be having trouble with and we need to work on. Um, and then you know, at the end we've got this and we're gonna continue this momentum and we've got work to do, but we're doing great kind of thing. Um, so it's kind of nice because you know, we we talk to everybody. We we um if they don't share or if they're not comfortable sharing things in the beginning, I think a lot of teachers have come a long way and they'll come to us now that we are this far into the process.

SPEAKER_01

And I I think two things real fast. Um, number one, when you said Cassandra, Cammy, I'm only pop culture reference. And I'm like, okay, what TV, what movie, like who what Cassandra, and then you said from Greek mythology, and I thought, I'm a sixth grade student that knows I don't know who Cassandra in Greek mythology is, but I guess that she can tell the future or attempts to know the future.

SPEAKER_03

Oh and so sometimes it feels like you're like, I can tell this is what's gonna happen, yeah, but nobody takes it as seriously as I want them to. Um so like getting Mrs. Vermulin to be our MIT, it was like so exciting for me because I knew that math really needed that intervention.

SPEAKER_01

And and and she's again, if you if you haven't heard her go to episode two, but she's she's a member of our guiding coalition, she's doing phenomenal work. Okay, so now that I've learned about Cassandra, because again, I'm like, I really was like, I don't know what movie with the Cassandra, I don't know a TV show, but I'm gonna get it.

SPEAKER_03

That schooled me. Nobody said, what is that?

SPEAKER_01

I don't want the moment of I don't know Sandra. But to then my second point, though, is we've done a lot of talk in this episode about like coming together and then going back to your respective primary and upper and leading there. Has there been crossover leadership? Andor do you feel a little nervous? Like Jessica Tobin, do you feel nervous to like, okay, I'm gonna walk into upper grade and talk about this? Do you feel nervous to like I'm gonna go down to primary? And we talk about them like they're different locations, they're buildings 20 feet apart from each other. But do you feel any nervousness?

SPEAKER_03

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_03

Because I don't know what I'm talking about with primary.

SPEAKER_00

And I don't know what I'm talking about. Those posters that we had to do were coming up with ideas. I would go to this. I had never had more anxiety in a meeting in my entire. And what did I say? I even looked at you and I said, please don't ever put me in upper grade. I'm looking at their standards. I have no idea how to accept it.

SPEAKER_01

They're mostly about Cassandra.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, that would have been easier than what I saw.

SPEAKER_03

You know what Paula said about Paula Maker, name dropping. Uh what Paula said about that activity. She's now known by a first day basis. Almost always the grade levels that people have the most trouble with are the ends.

SPEAKER_01

TK and TK and six.

SPEAKER_03

TK and six. Yeah. Because unless you have expertise in those specific areas, it's really difficult to have that understanding to be able to extend it.

SPEAKER_01

And so for context, what we're talking about is that at a at a recent staff meeting, one of the areas that um we're we're not as strong in is PLC question four. What are we gonna do when students have already learned in that extension? And so what Polymaker led us through at a staff meeting was um, I don't know what you call it, a walkabout or a gallery, but it wasn't quite, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03

Kind of a gallery.

SPEAKER_01

Kind of a gallery before the gallery was created. It was helping to create it. So each grade level had a poster up there and wrote um uh an essential outcome that they wanted to extend upon. And um, so grade level teams went to a poster, wrote I've you know, fractions or or something to that effect. And then the the idea was with pretty quickly just brainstorm, throw up their ideas um about extension activities, things that students could do independently that was, I think it was low prep, no passive screens, and no worksheets, I think were the rules, right? And and it was wonderful. And then before we started, you'd be you were looking at your poster and you were brainstormed about it, and then the first direction was go to the one clockwise. Like you don't get to start at your grade level. And then as you rotated around, you had to brainstorm, and that's what you were referring to. Well, even worse, it went from first grade to sixth grade. Yeah, we we didn't go in an order of grades either.

SPEAKER_03

I had an easy start. Did you? We were at uh we had we got to go to fifth grade. Oh lucky, but then we got into like TK, and I was like, I don't, I don't know. Like in a state of shock. Yeah, there's it's just letters. And I thought what else do I do with that?

SPEAKER_01

And but what I love about that is the is it freeing to you as site leaders to not to realize, like, like you talked about in the very beginning, it's not the teaching problem, it's not an instruction problem, it's there's a system and structure problem. And so as teacher leaders, you can say, like, I I can't come teach TK. Like, I don't know. I mean, I can fumble my way through, but I don't know what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00

But I also don't have to know.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

But that's what's so nice though. That's why I love that she's upper grade and I'm primary because I don't have to worry about upper grade. Because if it you had two in primary leadership, I would feel like I'd have to scramble trying to figure out what upper grade needs. I never have to worry because I know Cammy's got it. Not that we're not, you know, working with everybody, but when we get to those really technical pieces like learning ladders and CFAs, I don't have to worry about upper grade because she's got upper grade and I've got the lower primary CFAs. So that really helps because I wouldn't know how to help them as easily, obviously, as you.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, and I think same, vice versa.

SPEAKER_01

So where's the line? Are we just leaving third grade out? Like is third grade just float?

SPEAKER_00

Technically, primary is K through two.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That's pod for the case.

SPEAKER_03

But Lynette has helped a lot with our three, four pods. Yeah, she does have experience in multiple grades, and especially now that she's been teaching all of our math. Um, I think she, as part of our guiding coalition, is very helpful to have for 3-4.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, by the way, we're still here for three.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we're still here for 35. No, I was more just making a joke like where does ever grade stop in primary?

SPEAKER_03

No, it's the testing grades or third to six. Okay, so that's here.

SPEAKER_01

Plus, but I mean again, there's and we we we joke, but but you two as the caps leaders, it doesn't take away the other teacher leadership that's taking place across the campus. It's just you guys have had a different level of investment in both of you. And as you talked about, Kimmy, bringing, you know, I I learned this first. How do I bring this back? Keeping that one kind of step ahead as we go through. Okay, I want to go to our last quote here for the data. We kind of talk about it. Again, it's the same book, Time for Change, a wonderful book on leadership within the PLC at work process. But on page 45, the first full it's a first full paragraph, kind of the top half, it says this trustworthiness or reliability and likability and affable nature are very different things. A person can like someone he or she distrusts, and they can trust someone that he or she dislikes. We are not arguing that being affable and personable are bad traits. In fact, we would recommend that leaders display traits of likability as often as possible. But ultimately, trustworthiness is much more important than likability when it comes to stimulating commitment to change behavior. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say, I like both of you. That's not a limb. It's a very strong branch, right? It's a very strong branch. But you're too very the staff, I don't want to tell you how they feel, but very much likes you. How do you feel you have done something to build their trust or create the trustworthiness within your leadership?

SPEAKER_03

I mean, I I'm pretty lucky because I have been I I've had a pretty big role in our teacher union for several years. Okay until I decided it it was someone else's turn. Yeah, fair. And so I think that that helped to build that trust with staff already because part of the job is being on the teacher side. Yeah. And I'm I'm still there. I'm just not in an officer role.

SPEAKER_01

You're putting your energy into something different, but still there. And as Jessica talked about, our staff still will go to you as a sounding board and for wisdom and guidance and things like that. That makes sense. Your turn, Tobin?

SPEAKER_00

So I had a little bit of a bigger theme. Can't say it was part of the union or things like that. So, like I said earlier, it was a little bit tough because um it was my second year here, but not my second year teaching. But, you know, to be fair, when you go to a new school, you almost feel like a new teacher again. And, you know, you don't know everybody that well yet and and and how systems work and things. Um, so luckily, um, you know, I'm really passionate about reading. And I brought this Hegerty program, you know, to our school and I asked you about it. And um I was lucky to present in front of our staff. So I started getting in front of our staff, um, kind of letting them, you know, show what I know about reading, how we can help our students with phonemic awareness and phonics, um, kind of came through that end. Um, and I think they then they started coming to me and said, well, what do I do if a student doesn't know this? And once they realized that I had of a reading background and maybe I knew what I was talking about when it comes to reading and phonemic awareness and how long I've spent in primary prior to coming here, I think that helped. And then I think just um, you know, you just developing relationships um just with other staff. Um, I think when they start coming into your classroom, when you start showing data, they really start to see, okay, like your students are doing well in the room, like you've got to be doing something right, you know. Maybe I will listen to like, you know, what you have to say because something's working for you, you know. But only that, I think I was just really lucky. Uh, the staff here is so welcoming. Um, I was really nervous, and then when I got in front of everybody, everybody was like, you know, that was great, you know, and what do you have to say about this and that? And I just was really lucky that way because the school's just amazing that way. They welcome everybody and um and I yeah, I'm I'm grateful.

SPEAKER_01

It's an interesting both your anecdotes build trust in the same, but also there's differences to it. Like you talked about b leaning more heavily on reliability and like there's been years of being able to rely on you for this different role or or guidance through the union uh, you know, perspectives or roles played that that just years of trust being built for reliability, whereas um you built it more from like, hey, I I know what I'm talking about. You know what I mean? Like I I got this, let me show you. No, no, but. But again, and both of you have both.

SPEAKER_03

You can't roll your eyes at that. I don't mean it. Both of you have both. Because Guiding Coalition and Caps were built from teacher survey. And your name came up. Thank you. So it's you can't just say, eh.

SPEAKER_00

Like that's I mean, I hope that you know I know what I'm saying. But yeah, and when Mr. Gilpin came and said, you know, there's gonna be some opportunities coming, and you know, don't shy away from them. I think if I didn't get that encouragement, if if that didn't come up where I got the motivation or the encouragement, I would have think I would have been too afraid to step up into a leadership role. Because you were new here. Because I was new here.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. And I again, and and that's exactly right. Like Cammy said, I mean, the the CAPS team was developed through a teacher survey that Cindy Pillard provided, kind of and asked questions like if you have to count on somebody, who'd you go to? You need different this. And so names that were repeated were like, hey, those are your obvious ones. And very, very fortunately, things fall into place sometimes for Canyon Springs. I don't believe in luck. You make your own luck, you create opportunities for yourself, but the upper grade primary dynamic fell in, and we've been able to capitalize on that. Um, and then on top of all of the trust, both wonderfully affable people as well. I think you're wonderfully affable people.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, now don't roll your eyes at all.

SPEAKER_01

Don't roll your eyes at being likable.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, so anecdote.

SPEAKER_01

I will tell my anecdote. Can I do an anecdote? Please do affability. Please.

SPEAKER_03

Because mine is the opposite of yours. So my very first job was in this neighborhood. Okay. Working at House of Fabrics, which for those of you too young to remember, that's what Joanne Fabrics used to be.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Um which now we have neither.

SPEAKER_03

And I thought I was being perfectly nice to customers. And one day one of the assistant managers said, you know, you might want to smile. And I thought I was. So then did it become a very awkward smile? Like I'm sure it did. I'm sure it was okay after that. I'm sorry for being weird. It's gonna continue.

SPEAKER_01

No, no, you've been smiling this whole time, too. It's wonderful. It's very wonderful.

SPEAKER_00

No, no, and you I think you smile a lot at my own. You do smile a lot. You're very friendly.

SPEAKER_01

But I do, and we've joked about this, and I told you this anecdote, both of you, when we were away at a PLC institute in RTI, and I we I read this book a couple years ago, Time for Change. And when I read this line, it kind of broke my heart a little bit because, but not a real one, but because I've always thought like a nice compliment of myself was that I was affable. And so several years ago, prior to this job, I interviewed at a local district for an assistant principal job, and they asked the age old question, right? Like, if you could pick one word to describe yourself, what would you pick? And I very confidently said, I would like to be, I believe I'm affable. And I never heard from that district again, right? And I thought I'd given this like great answer. They nodded along and I was like, I think I used a big word, first of all. Maybe they just didn't know what affable meant. Maybe like Cassandra, they just didn't know. I should have, I should have, they should have asked. But I used affable. And so then for years I thought, I really like I it's one of those answers you've gone over in your head of like, I thought that was good. It wasn't like it wasn't a stock answer. I thought they've never heard affable. Maybe they read this book, maybe they read page 45 of Time for Change, and they said this guy's not trustworthy. He's relying on his affability.

SPEAKER_03

It says you can be both. You can be both.

SPEAKER_01

I was only presenting as one. Um, no, I think it's I I and so again, why I wanted to end with this because I think it is, it really is you need both, but you do both lead with very trustworthy in terms of taking us and being the lead learners on it. And so I finished Cami's episode with a similar question in terms of like, what do you need to keep pushing forward? And I go now to both of you as we finish off this season in talking about site leadership, and I'm gonna step into the next couple episodes are more on organizational leadership, not just Canyon Springs, but those schools around us, and what does it mean to be lead learners and how do we know that this is the vision we need? And and so going to both of you, knowing that next year we're we're I don't know how many school days away, 14 school days away, 13 school days away from the end of the year.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, it's it's 14.

SPEAKER_01

It's 14, thank you.

SPEAKER_03

I think today was day 14.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so Memorial Day, right? So the commitment level to record a podcast on the Friday after school before Memorial Day, like I can only have compliments for this again. But then, but then knowing that next year we refine, we go deeper, what investment in you are you looking for? What are you guys both hoping for as CAPS teacher leaders, half of the guiding coalition, to maintain your motivation? Because I want to stop here and say, I do both of you a disservice sometimes by seeing you as teacher leaders first before actual teachers of kids. Sometimes I just burst in your room while teaching and say, like, hey, what are we doing? And the 30 kids are looking at me and I'm like, oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_03

Well, to be fair, it's a little easier because I can say, hey, work on this, and they do. Yeah. And minergency is too. Toven's just there.

SPEAKER_01

And so sometimes I create interruptions by being excited about this conversation, this work, when really it needs to impact and I need to get out of the way.

SPEAKER_03

And so you just come during our purple time and you'll be fine. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01

I will come during purple time. But what are you looking for? What are you excited about? What are you hoping next steps, both for yourselves and the school, are?

SPEAKER_00

I'm excited to keep moving forward. I'm excited to see more concrete evidence of all of the learning that we've been taking back. I'm excited to see more learning ladders being refined. I'm excited, I'm excited for the teachers to be happy with their CFAs, getting the data that they want, seeing that there's an improvement in their data. Um, I think our teachers are really motivating. Um to see them get excited about things makes me more excited. To see them more determined and motivated makes me more um, I think at first it was the students, right? Like we're motivated with the students. We want students to do well. But now that we see all these teachers being invested too, I'm excited just seeing how motivated our teachers are and how far can we go with all of this. And then what are the next steps after we have solidified things? There's always gonna be things we have to change and refine, but I'm excited for all of the artifacts that we're creating um to really come to life. And I'm excited to just continue with the process. Um, I think we've always been really excited about our CAPS meetings, even if it's review, it's uh validates everything that we're doing. Um, but there's always something new we're learning that we get excited about. And um, I'm excited for just more of the process and um helping our staff develop more.

SPEAKER_03

I think we've already talked about it today, but I think I'm most excited about the refinement. We've built so much of that base that took up so much of our focus the last this year and last year. Yeah. And now like it's it it sounds silly to someone who doesn't get it, but like Mallory Langley and I sat down and we redid our annual budget for uh ELA. Yeah, and it was fun and exciting, and it's like, oh yeah, we have it for next year. And then to be like, oh now we have a new mastery, so let's look at that and how are we gonna adjust and refine the math annual budget? So and and it doesn't take as long as building annual.

SPEAKER_01

I was curious, like it's not from scratch anymore.

SPEAKER_03

Right, and we've already lived it for this year because this year is when we kind of created those annual budgets, and so seeing that refinement from everybody, and it allows because it takes less time, it allows us to put more focus on something else that might ever need to get done. Yeah. Um so it's just exciting, like you said, to keep pushing forward and knowing that so much of it is not done because it's never done, but so much so much of it is laid out for us.

SPEAKER_01

And I think it's great. And and again, when whether I don't remember when Polymaker was here in April, we had so many conversations and we joked about it on the podcast that I can't remember what was said on the podcast and what was said off the podcast. But very much she had a two-parter. She had a two-parter, absolutely, but very much so. Um, Canyon Springs, and I don't think we're alone in this, how sometimes have a knowledge and doing gap that we've invested so much in the knowledge that what both of you just said was what you're excited about was doing more doing, right? Like creating artifacts that that that talk that influence student learning and feedback, and then refining the way we're delivering to them and how to ensure that they have access and and time to master all of the essentials. Both of those are yes, we want to be lead learners and go more, but hey, we also are so excited by the doing and the action plan behind it. And it's exciting. So thank you both for being here. This is wonderful. The first of our three-part series on what it means to lead this process. Um, go have a wonderful Memorial Day weekend, and thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. Now turn to your PLT for the next steps in the PLC at work journey, and we'll see you out there. You can find more information about this week's episode in the podcast description. The intro and outro music provided courtesy of the Signors of Marseille, and podcast cover art provided care of Joel B.