Pivot Happens - Episode 3, Part 1: Pivot as a Verb wsg Laura

We are Anne Kingston and Von denMeer and welcome to our podcast! It's Episode THREE and it's all about the action you need to take to pivot or react to pivots - inspired action as Von denMeer likes to call it. 

Today's Episode, Pivot as a Verb, features our friend, Laura! She is a fellow traveler on the pivot path and has had a life full of pivots and sees it all in a wonderful, positive way, while acknowledging what we believe too - this shit is hard! Join us for Part 1 of an intentionally meandering, wide-ranging discussion with our posse of pivoters.

Work brought us together, writing bonded us for life, but we also found that we shared a lot of similar beliefs about life and moving toward where you really want to be. We started talking about pivots and the podcast idea came from that. We wanted to share our experiences on making pivotal choices in our lives and those other times the Universe made the choices for us and how we survived (and thrived). We focus on resilience and we invite people with interesting and inspiring pivot stories to come on and share with us and our audience (we will have one someday, right, Buzzsprout? That's part of the deal. . . ). Want to share you're story? Reach out!

We call ourselves the Unprofessional Armchair Psychologists, but this is pure silliness and if you need REAL mental heal help, please reach out. If you need to connect, you can reach NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) at Call: 1-800-950-6264, Text “NAMI” to 62640, or if you're in a crisis, Call or Text 988. Don't wait! Your pivot may be just around the corner and we want you here and healthy for it.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Pivot Happens, the plucky little podcast that could, with Ann Kingston and Von Denmir.

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Episode three, Pivot as a Verb, with special guest Laura Howard. Hey, welcome once again to the Pivot Happens podcast, the plucky little podcast that could. I am one of your hosts, Von Denmeer. And I'm Ann Kingston, the other host. And today we have special guest Laura. Our friend Laura is here. And uh we are we're inviting people to come here and talk about their pivots, and that's exactly what Laura's gonna do today. We're calling this episode Pivot as a verb. And so the topic we kind of want to stick to as best we can, as but we do our best. We do our best, but we do meander a bit here and there because we're meanderers. Meanderers are pivoters, I believe. But um, so because we want to talk a little bit about how uh I call it inspired action. It's it's like you it pivots it's like waiting for, you know, like they always say, when when you want to be dating someone, waiting for them to come knock on the door. That's not gonna happen. If you want to be dating someone, you have to put yourself in the line of fire, you know what I mean? And so that's when we talk about pivot and throughout this whole thing, we also have kind of an unspoken underlying theme of you have to make some pivots happen. If you want to make a pivot happen, you have to make it happen and you have to take action. So we're gonna kind of focus around that today. And uh, I think uh one of the really interesting reasons about both uh Ann Kingston and Laura, uh, or an interesting thing about both of them, get this out, uh, is that they are both archaeologists and trained archaeologists, that is what they they have their master's degrees in. And I I know when I tell people I I work with quite a few archaeologists, they're like, I don't know any archaeologists. And I I was saying to Ann earlier, um, I think it's because they have this visual of Indiana Jones unearthing the mummy, unearthing tombs in Egypt.

SPEAKER_03 2:20

Yeah, the romanticized version of archaeology.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

Yes, yes, yes, and you can have fedora or not, but generally you guys, I I mean, you spend a lot of time like when people are digging things, are doing construction or whatever, making sure they're not unearthing treasures and protected things.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

Yeah, so watching watching construction most of the time or pre-construction work.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

Yeah. So I thought it would be interesting if um Laura, you want to tell us a little bit about how you started there and kind of where you went from from there and how you even ended up.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Yeah, and you know, I like that I really like that this that you're you know titling this podcast as uh ver, you know, a verb, pivot as a verb, because it it I I just think I some of those force pivots, and I think we've brought that up and talked a little bit about that before, but those force pivots are still like something is still going on. It's not something you're actively choosing, it's not your pivot that you chose, but there's still gonna be action reaction as part of it. So I really I like that you kind of titled it that, but yeah, that's one of the things that what happened to me was um I've got a lot of pivots in my life. Um and really growing up, we moved a tremendous amount of time. So there was a lot of forced pivots there with within that. Um, so when I was able to start making my own pivots and making my own decisions and those things, that was like a really nice, really nice. So that whole thing of ones that you don't choose and ones you do choose, these pivots is it's big. And reflecting on those in as much as you can in a positive way, the forced ones, I think is like a really important part of these pivots.

SPEAKER_02 4:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Is a a lot of stuff happened to a lot of us growing up, different whatever it is that we grew up with or have had in our past. Um and it's very hard to not look at it in a negative way.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

But like for Ann and I, one of the things about about us and like our history, our shared history of our our degree and whatnot, is that it's like we wouldn't be where we were, we wouldn't be here today doing this podcast. Uh, you know, whether those are forced things or not, you know, or chosen things, it's that and that's reflecting on it in a positive way. So, you know, that's one of the things that that Ann mentioned is that as talked about in the past, is that it's like, well, we did all this, you know, we've got these degrees, these the masters in, you know, uh in archaeology, anthropology. And um, I think she degree and we agree both. I think that it it's not for it's not for nothing, basically, because that we learned, like life skills that we learned and the situations we were put in, and just the whole, the whole basket. It's a big basket. There's a lot of stuff. Um, but I we I wouldn't change it. Like I I wouldn't, I wouldn't change that. Yeah, now I'm doing something different, career-wise, um, you know, work-wise. But I I I I wouldn't change that pivot, even though, yeah, when I started out in it, my idea was, yeah, I'm gonna be an archaeologist, or I'm gonna, or I'm gonna teach, or I'm gonna, you know, um have a mine was actually I wanted to have my own firm. Like I had I had the idea of owning uh, you know, an archaeological firm. Small, I had no visions of it being some major, you know, nationwide um archaeological firm, or but um, but it that is what I was kind of you know aiming for. Um and you know, things things change. And and again, I wouldn't change it because some of the decisions I made after that were based on that as well.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

So um I think too, it's always important to remember with things like no matter what it is, and how you've changed it, how you you know, veered from what you thought day one, everything was and I we talked about this before. A lot of times we make these, you know, we're we're 18 years old, 18 whole years old, and we're picking what we're going to do. And and back when, you know, again, rep and gen X here, back when we were coming up, it was like you get out of high school, you pick a career, you go to college, and then you do that career. I mean, there was still a lot of that mindset. So, but uh, I think what what all of us who who've chosen to pivot away from that and not, you know, because to me, what would be worse than spending 40 years doing something you don't love? I mean, or or isn't you know satisfying for you, but is that none of that can be taken from you. That's the great thing. Yeah, and you need, I think always remember that that it wasn't wasted time, and that's just what you're getting at there. It's like it wasn't wasted time, it was part of the journey, it was part of you know, trusting that the universe, whatever it is, has a bigger plan for you, and that was the route you took in the beginning.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

So yeah, I mean that's why I say it's we wouldn't be here today, like you know, I wouldn't have I wouldn't be have the opportunity to, you know, have have both of you, you know, actively in my lives and and it's super important to me now. And it's just so odd. I mean, it's like that's like a real positive thing for me. Like that's really odd, and it's like just how everything just kind of puts together, and then it's like I don't know, it's just so it's it's it that is a comforting thing to me. So it's like you had these pivots and they might you would tend to look at them as negative, but if you look at the whole picture and you're satisfied where you are now or you're getting satisfied, or you're in, you know, what content, basically content. I like to use the word content as opposed to like happy. Like I I like the happy, that's for sure, but I feel like happy is like that real high and then low. So I always feel like if you're content, your your needs are met, you know, those kind of things. It's like just bizarre how how things work out, you know, in a in a positive way.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

Yeah, for you um and and you went from you started out in like straight up archaeology, but then you ended up kind of going into sort of archaeological tourism. Is that right? I mean, would you have a lot of people? Yeah, that's a good way. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Yeah, we actually it morphed a little bit from because they did have courses. I took some courses on public archaeology, and I think Ann, I think, may have taken some of those classes as well. And so that was actually you could have a discussion. Yeah, you could do a discussion.

unknown 8:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Sorry, I didn't get you. And um, so that and then so that's kind of what happened was you do this public archaeology, which you focus on interacting with the public with the archaeological record. So it could be it can be anything from uh you know interpretation that goes on signs at parks, or it can be touring people around, or um it, you know, it can be even going to like meetings and putting forth like what the you know what's going on.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

So yeah, so like public information specialist kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Yeah. So that's yeah, and that's what you said, is then I switched. So I was, yeah, archaeology like as a science and field archaeology, and then and then yeah, morphing and pivoting to um you know public archaeology and more, and then even tourism. So yeah, because yeah, I went to Belize, I lived there for five years and worked at a research center. Um, and we did do archaeology, like we were doing field archaeology, but it was a lot of a lot of public archaeology. I mean, it was a lot of introducing the people that came to visit that area to what the archaeological ruins that were there were all about, like the history and everything. So I got interested in in doing that, and then yeah, um started doing some travel um off of that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:03

And and you kind of still give some potential to that coming back into your life again.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

I do, I do. I have not I have not uh ruled that out just because it's such an interest of mine, and it I so that could be uh yet another pivot, upcoming pivot um that could, you know, potentially look into, you know, trying to um have that be. Because it's almost like a hobby. It I just have the oh my gosh, I have, I'm not kidding you, the best time going in and looking at what is it that people, whether it's myself or another or someone else, based on their interests, what can they do when they go somewhere and travel? Um, you know, and it doesn't even matter, even here, like in South Florida or or wherever, just all those little side things that you can do that are a little bit more than a tourist attraction where you actually get immersed a little bit more in like the people that are there, the food, or you know, um understanding the history there. Um, I just I I really do love that. So yeah, hopefully that is something that you know.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

You can really tell because you kind of come alive when you talk about it, you know. You can tell, like that's you got a lot of passion there. Yeah, that's cool. That's very cool.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

And that's what that's what I figure is if you have that, then you're able to sell it. Because I'm not a salesperson. I never sales was very hard for me. I tried, like I tried some sales jobs, it was just ridiculous. I couldn't sell it, it was just terrible. Like, I just think about that. I don't know how those people sell things and give people to buy.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

I know it's a gift, it is certainly a gift, people who can sell, and I think they have really thick skin. Yes. Oh my god, yeah. I don't think rejection bothers them as much as it does the average person. Are they just, you know, it's like, I know I'm I have never, I mean, obviously I I I spent time working in marketing, which is a facet of sales, but yeah to me, and I I know like even when I've had my own business and stuff, I mean that I can do a certain kind of sales, like advertising sort of sales, that's fine with me, but actually trying to go to somebody and try to get them to buy something not my jam, not my jam at all. So um, yeah, that I mean that sounds it sounds very cool. And it's also very cool that I mean you still have that pivot within you, you know what I mean? You haven't let go of that, and and that's important because I think maybe a pivot can even be kind of a turnstile, you know. Obviously, writing it that's how it was, you know what I mean? It's not like I spent the last you know 30, 40 years writing and and living as a writer, and yet on and off, up and down, different times, and now here it is back again. That's a lot of where my passion lies. I know for Ann too. So, Anne, you also started out in the archaeology world and pivoted out of that too.

SPEAKER_03 12:55

Do you have my start was when I met Laura actually? Well, yeah, no, it's crazy, but that's the truth. Um, I I say this in a bougie way that Laura and I met at an archaeological field, you know, field school in uh Italy, but we we did technically, um, but we also technically met at the same college. And um, and I don't know if you know this, Laura, but I just remember that um I think I was an undergrad when you were in grad school and you were the TA of the field school in the anthropology department, and and and your reputation preceded you. I don't know if you know that, but yeah, it did. And um I'm not surprised. It did. Your reputation preceded you because we heard all about Laura, the TA, when um Yeah, no, seriously. Yeah, and then I think that I took the field school after yours. And then um, I think that's when we ended up being connected on the the dig when we went to Italy and and worked on a uh Etruscan site.

SPEAKER_02 14:00

So which was when you talk like when you talk about it like that, that sounds pretty sexy, you know. When you're talking about going to digs and Etruscan sites in Italy, it's like, yeah, that's you you got your fedora on your whip now. Okay, yeah. The hill we had to climb up every day was pretty rough, I'll tell you.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

You remember that hill? The hill and the the roads, like I was always I never got car sick. I never had been car sick. I got car sick there, yeah. Um and I wasn't it's just because it was oh yeah, so many switchbacks and stuff on the road. I was just like, wow, and if they drove like crazy too, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:38

That didn't help either, but it's narrow, especially in um, you know, not the cities, they're they're really narrow as you are as you are out of the city. And the part that okay, we digress, but I think the reason also is too, every time you were going on a switchback, every time you got to one of those curves, you had to honk your horn because if somebody else was flying down the other direction, you know, you both had to know you were coming on the same space in the same time. But yes, it was it was it was a um survival of the fittest driving, I think. Yeah. But okay, so to answer your question, yes, I I um I I was in the same kind of general path that Laura was in, and that's kind of how we met. Um I did archaeology, I don't know, maybe about 15 years. Um you know, moved to a lot of different places to work, um, had a lot of fun. Um, and then I think that when I decided, okay, I'm gonna start having a family, uh, it just was timing. And I, you know, it was one of those things you just kind of can't predict or control. But uh I had my son in 2008 and I got laid off right after he was born, like literally two months after he was born. So um that was a pretty big pivot. It was a really big pivot, and um uh because I was doing what was called cultural resource management um focused archaeology, which is based on US federal government regulations. I know it's a mouthful, um US federal US government regulations on particular types of work. And in this case, it was federal funded projects like roadways getting built or bridges or you know, uh on a military installation, things like that, where money was being put into those projects uh as part of the US's laws to be good stewards for our history, that's what CRM came from. And so um that's what I did. I just worked as a cultural resource management um archaeologist, and we always surveyed for roads and did things like that. And a part of that job was writing proposals. So you were always putting estimates together, and so it as I was searching for a job, um, I really wasn't sure if I wanted to get back into archaeology, especially having a baby at home, because it you travel so much. I mean, a lot. And um and and I it was a very weird, crazy, scary decision. Um, but I did. I started to apply for jobs that were just outside of archaeology, and I don't know how I found what I found in marketing. Um, but I found a job in marketing, none of us do.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

None of us do. That's it is a job that no you don't go to school for it, you don't even know about it, that it exists, and then all of a sudden you're there, and it's like there's this whole secret world of proposals.

SPEAKER_03 17:48

And the part I think that um I think for about a good three years after I transitioned out of the professional field of archaeology, um, I was ashamed.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:00

I was, I was ashamed. I felt like, oh, I wasn't the ones who made it till the end. Like who who who thinks these things? But yes, I did. Um, who doesn't make it to the end as a professional archaeologist? And I know, I know, I know, seriously.

SPEAKER_02 18:16

Maybe we needed the armchair, the amateur the unprofessional armchair psychologist. So Laura, do you think that's a good idea?

SPEAKER_03 18:24

I know that's a part of me. I know if I'm gonna psychoanalyze myself, I know that a part of it has to do with like me feeling good enough. I totally get that part, and that would be a whole nother show. But um the the part though, the part that's really cool though is yes, I was ashamed for a good amount of years after the fact. I was even afraid to tell people that I had a degree in archaeology in my new newfound career. But I think something kind of clicked. Um I don't know, uh about five years, six years after the fact, where I I was like, no, I I'm a fucking unicorn, I'm a fucking hot ticket. I've got the technical experience, I've got the writing experience, I'm a really good technical writer. I got all, I got a lot to offer. And it was just like, okay, so oh wow, wait a second. And it was just, I just, I, I, I just looked at it differently. And the other part, Laura, that I kind of, I don't know if you kind of thought this at one point in time, but it was like, oh, I'm evolving. I'm evolving into I love that where I'm supposed to be, and my master's degree and my archaeology and my technical writing and even the graphic design that I would have to teach myself as an architect early archaeologist, putting my own reports together that would be submitted to state, you know, agencies. It all came together and it all made sense. So anyway, that that's in a nutshell, if that was a nutshell. But yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

I think that um I mean, shame is uh probably one of the most basic human feelings and emotions, and and it's primal. It's a primal thing. It's I don't fit into my tribe, and boy, if if you're a wild animal and you don't fit in with your your herd, you're in trouble. So I I know it's all that, but I think that um shame and fear of shame can be such an enemy to progress, you know. It's like I didn't um I wouldn't tell people that I'd gone to law school um because it it kind of um I I think a lot of times they'd be like, Well, what are you doing? What why are you doing this? What are you doing? You know, it would bring up more questions or whatever. And I and some places when I would tell them, they sort of thought maybe I could do some side legal stuff with them. And it's like, I am no more an attorney than anyone in this room. And and and actually, that's practicing law without a license. I'm enough of an attorney to know that's not okay. So um, but actually, and then when I started working where we are now, I told people, and and and people are like, Really? You do now? And I'm like, Yeah, because where I work now, it doesn't seem like a very big deal to have a law degree. Because I mean, I work with how many people do I work with almost everybody on my team has a master's degree in something, a lot of them archaeology, anthropology, and other things. And then we work with so many PhDs, high-level engineers, other people who actually did finish law school, who are attorneys who are doing stuff, and it's like, yeah, nobody thinks it's that that big deal at work now. So it's like, I don't care if people know, it's like, yeah. I sometimes I will tell people that on a call like when I'm working with a newer team or something, because I want them to know it's like this is my perspective. I'm coming into this, into what we're doing here, so you can understand. I'm gonna be thinking content, thinking uh compliance, thinking, you know, those are gonna be my my areas of focus. And also to just let them know, you know, it's like, yeah, I'm I've got things to offer here, so you know, don't worry, you're in good hands. Yeah, but so but I totally um we I know that I I have told you guys about how I had a really, really mean, I had really mean grandparents on one side, and I had a really mean grandpa. And when I left, um, well, actually it was um I I started out in pre-med and um because I you know was trying to show the world whatever I could do or whatever I'd I and I was I had a lot of pressure to do something kind of big and I I didn't like that at all. It wasn't where I belonged, and so I switched into pre-law, and every time I would see my grandpa, every single time he would say to me, What are you what are you doing in school? And I'd be like, I'm in pre-law, and he's like, I thought you were gonna be a doctor every single time. And he knew it, and he was doing it just to just to um that you know, but again, that kind of external shame of you said you're gonna do it, so you better stick with it. It's like fuck that. Fuck that bullshit. I'm sorry. And anybody out there, wherever you are in life, listening to this, and you're feeling like I don't want to have to tell people I'm not gonna do this anymore. I don't want to tell people I'm not gonna do the thing. I just paid all this money for the degree, I could not be happier. I didn't do that. I mean, it's like best decision ever. I didn't I was the problem was, and this is the kind of thing you can run into, and this is the kind of thing I think that will drive you to a pivot, is I could handle the coursework of being an attorney. I was good. I was, I could, you know, I wrote things well, I I did well in the classes, I could stand up there. But the thought of actually having to do it and have something, the anxiety that gave me was why I couldn't do it. I couldn't, um, at that time of my life. I mean, things would be different now. I'm a very different person, but that that little mess who was 22, 23 years old, she did not want to do that. She did not have what it took, and it nearly pushed me over the edge, you know. And it was like, so when I finally acknowledged that, and then I've done because you know, you get out, you guys at least went into your field and practice for a while and have like that basis. I never did that part, and I had zero appreciable job skills. It was like, here I am. I went to school for a very long time. And you can't go out and kind of practice law. You can't, it's like you either do it or you don't. It's it's you're on or you're off. So I am so not sorry. I have done so many interesting things, even this crazy career that we're all in now, this whole proposals thing, it it's been, I mean, it's always been interesting. I have, I will say that my life has been interesting. Not easy, as I I've made the joke many times. It's like sometimes I thought to myself, maybe you could have taken the road a little more travel. You didn't maybe have to make it this hard. But I don't know, maybe I did. And and so kind of trusting that the the pivots I chose, even when I was I was choosing them, but sort of unconsciously, sort of asked backward. Um they all led here again. And and I think that's um making peace with that is one of the best things you can do. That instead of trying to steer the boat, going with the waves, and it's not with you can't do with everything all the time. You know, sometimes you you have to make decisions and make things happen again, inspired action. But also it's like like if you over-plan, if you over you know, try to do things, I think sometimes that makes the universe laugh and it's like, okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

Exactly. And that's what that's what well, a couple of things, a couple things. One is just to start at that one, is that over planning, right? Which was that thing about the goals, like setting goals. I mean, they just have this huge thing about these smart goals and they're timed and they're managed and all every that whole aspect of it. But then when you don't, if you don't fulfill it, you feel so guilty, yeah. And the shame comes up because you're like, oh, I set this goal, and then a couple years I was gonna have this happen, or you know, whatever, six months, whatever, whatever it is. And it you just can't, it's just that makes it difficult. So, like setting those things, I think it's better, like you said, is to ride the waves, things can change, be positive about it, even if they do change, you've got to look at the positive side of it, you know. Like you said, that's what leads you here. And so then you can um, because I think that whole goal setting has always, I don't know, I've just never been big on goal setting. And I mostly was like when when I was younger, I was mostly like, oh, that's a good idea, let's go do that.

unknown 27:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

That sounds good. Yeah, that sounds good. So let's go do this for a year, or oh, let's go, let's go live for here for six months and do this or not. And it's just like, so you're right. It it you do want to ride, you know, you want, but if you have some vision and that has almost not completely come clear because I'm sure there's gonna be pivots to go, but I feel a lot more, I feel I feel like I've matured so much in like life and seeing how things develop. And I I did not have that perspective in the 20s or 30s. Like I just didn't either don't have that. And so it's okay to like, yeah, we're not gonna have these rigid goals, and we're you know, and then if we didn't happen, then we feel you know guilty in this whole, you know, that you just and the whole thing about not being hard on yourself. Yes, it's like you're doing the best you can with the skills that you have at that moment, at that day, at that hour. Even like some of the things that we've dealt with on our in our in our work, like the three of us together in our work, literally in that moment, like that, literally that moment, sometimes you're just like you panic. Like you literally panic, and you're just like, okay, well, I'm gonna do the best I can. What is happening? Okay, is there anything similar? Because that's always what goes through my head. Did I have this happen before? What is it we did before? Is it was there some is there someone we can reach out to go by is like the savior of all anything, yeah, yes, yeah. But having those skills at that moment, so it's like you have to let yourself be nice to be good to yourself and be, you know, don't be hard on yourself because even in a moment you might have know what to do and you might have the skill, but that moment that you're there, it's like no, you you gotta let someone else is gonna help. I'm reaching out, I'm someone else is gonna guide me. Like I'm looking for that support, like that is in work and in life. So I I just think for me, like I'm learning that skill through work a little bit, which is really kind of odd. Like most people are like, they don't they don't, you know, they they learn that in their life, not necessarily, but I'm learning in work that with work, like reaching out has been such a positive and and things have gotten solved and and and done, and it's the same in your freaking life. If you're not feeling so hot, call somebody and talk to them about it, you know, and but you don't want to, you're just like, oh, it's gonna pass, I'll feel better later tomorrow, or I'll feel better next week, or I'll feel better in my well, I know it's just open up and talk to somebody, you know.

SPEAKER_02 29:41

So in mindful self-compassion, there's a tenant of that which is common humanity, and it's both what you're talking about reaching out, and it's also it's a it's one of those deceptively simple things, but because when you're in it, it's so hard to remember. But if you say to yourself, anyone in my position right now would feel the same way, it's like, oh, when you can get your brain to just it's like because when you feel alone, again, you're outside the herd, you're lost, you know what I mean? And it's like, oh no, I'm not. No, I'm not. Anyone who's trying to make a $40 million deal work and know that if they screw something up, you could lose that deal is gonna be stressed, is gonna feel is gonna, you know, it's like all of these, it's like remind yourself. And if you can't remind yourself, yes, reach out, try to just, you know, find something.

SPEAKER_03 30:39

Asking for help. Ask for help. It's it's the weirdest thing. It but it's exactly what you said, ask for help. If you asked for help, there's something about it that doesn't quite sometimes sit right or feel right, or sometimes you don't even think to because you're so deep in the anxiety. Yeah, but the part that's funny is if I asked you for help, Laura, or or you know, you would jump. I know you would. I would jump if you asked for help. So when we turn it around and I think about it from a different point of view, of like, well, Flora asked for help, of course. I I drop everything. Yeah, you know, with a lot of people. I mean, it's just is that way.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

But you feel so like in knowing that, knowing that, and we we kind of I feel like we kind of all know that and we do practice it. I think we try, even though I know we get it immersed and we don't, but yeah, I just feel bad for other people that yeah, you see these other struggles that people have had, or and they're not, and you're just like, I wish they'd reached out to me. I wish they, you know, you wish you could like spread that word to people and be like, everybody does it at some point. And and in fact, and sometimes it makes the other person feel useful and good to know that they've helped you. It's like you're actually helping somebody else. How weird is that? I mean, you know, but I I just don't know how to how to solve that except doing something like this, like this pivot podcast and things like that, you know.

SPEAKER_02 32:00

Yeah, that and and that there is another side, and another one of my other little uh mantra-e things is you won't always feel this way. And I that I gotta tell you, that one was a game changer for me because man, when you are in it, and I know, I know, I mean, personally, and that when you're in those places, a lot of times it is really hard to see anything beyond what feels like the wall in front of your face. And little things like that. And I know, I mean, I didn't start out like this. I went through a lot of really hard times before I gained these skills. Now that I've gained the skills, I'm not saying I'm perfect at it. It always, you know, is like woo-hoo, I'm great, I'm great. But it's like, yeah, that's right. I won't always feel this way. Because when you're in it, you don't think like that. And it's like, that's right. I didn't feel like this last week. My life isn't always terrible, it isn't always bad. It's like, yeah. So it seems right when you're doing okay, it seems ridiculous. But when you're in the shit, yeah, it's like that's when you need to just try to have that little, you know, maybe you write it down and have it on a post-it so that it's like it won't feel this way all the time. It just won't. It will get better.

SPEAKER_03 33:20

Yeah, things will get better. We we have a we have another friend from grad school. Um, I don't know if you remember Christine Hamlin. Um, yeah. We studied for our comprehensive exams together, and and to put it in context, our comprehensive exams for the degree we got was intense. It was it was really intense. It was four.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

Yeah. It was 16 hours of examinations. It was in all four subfields of you had four, you know, four hours in each other.

SPEAKER_03 33:48

Technically, it was probably more like 20 by the time everybody was all said and done, but but you studied for months for these exams. I mean, months and months and months for these exams. And um, I mean, I think I remember starting in you know, December, January for exams we would be taking in um April, May. And um anyway, so this woman who's wonderful, you know, it just felt so horrible sometimes, you know, especially if you're not getting it or if you're not remembering, or if that, you know, and you and it's just it feels overwhelming. And I remember she would always say to me, This is one moment in time, Anne. And um, and so uh it was one of those things that kind of helped me. I don't know, and I it's carried with me for the rest of my life that when I'm in a situation and I'm miserable, or if I'm it it just it's kind of like it's one moment in time in the overall scheme of your whole entire life. This is gonna feel like one little sliver. And just putting it in perspective like that always kind of, I don't know, it helps me. It's the same, it's the same vein that we're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 34:45

And it's it's not, I I I I would ever hesitate to say, you know, some when you're in a bad place and somebody says to you, it won't always be bad, it's not it that can be the toxic positivity, and it doesn't work, it actually kind of makes you feel worse because it's like I still don't feel good, I don't care, whatever. But there's something I think when you can get to a point of reassuring yourself and have that just that little switch that goes, that's right, that's right. I don't feel great, but I know I won't, and and I always find that even in the moment, because there's still part of me who's just like, no, everything still sucks, this is bad, but it doesn't have as much power anymore, and usually it's kind of like, yeah, yeah, you know, I I don't always feel this way because God, I got that mean voice in my head who'll just be like, nothing will ever be good again. And it doesn't even matter if anything's happened or what, but it's like you're not helping, and so that little counteract, and I I really, really believe it's because I I've talked before about you know my my search for the disease of me, to the cure for the disease of me, and and and it isn't gonna be one thing. I don't believe that you'll ever find one thing that's gonna be just like the miracle thing. And honestly, for me, it was the acceptance that there wasn't going to be a cure and that I was just gonna be dealing with things, but I would get better with deal at dealing with things as time went on, which is exactly what happened. But I really learned it's about having kind of a toolkit and and it's about having a support system. That's a big part of it. Whether it's a therapist, a friend, somebody, that can't be overstated because there will be the moments you can't pull yourself back out where that you won't listen to that little bit of wisdom saying, Oh, it won't last. It's like that is important, and and I know that's really hard for people, but hopefully, you know, listening to us maybe, or listening to other people, and know that there are people out there who really like to just be there for people who've been through their own shit. Trust me, everybody's been through some shit. They some people are just better at pretending it didn't happen. You know, let's my my Nan used to always say, let's just say that didn't happen, or you know, let's just not talk about that. That's not good advice, Nan. Sorry, Nan, sorry.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

I like the what you said though earlier about um it doesn't have the same power over you. Yeah, that's how you said it. But it was like, oh my god, yeah, that's it. That's it. I'm not gonna allow it to take over.

SPEAKER_02 37:19

Yes, you deflate it a little bit. And and it again, it's not like you can't just be like, everything's fine, you know. It isn't like that. It never would I promise anyone that you can just switch your moods on and off if you can. No, it's just maybe not a good sign, really. Because, but but you kind of learn, and trust me, there was a part of me for a long time who would have said, if I'd said, if I'd listened to me right now, I'd have been like, that's bullshit. I get in these states and there's no way out. And it was awful. It was really, really awful. But you know, the the it it gets better. It's the it gets better speech, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 37:58

Well, that's why I think that your um the toolkit thing and and and now our wisdom now looking back, because that's like what you said is if I could tell myself something, I would say just keep track of the things that like and I think you and I I think might have talked about this, the whole like well, music thing, right? So I went through it was a breakup really. I thought I did not have, I used to walk like I don't even know. I probably went like eight miles, I don't even know, because it was like I didn't feel like I felt like I thought I was gonna walk it off, like walk off the depression. And so I would go a long way and I'd be like, I still don't feel better. So I'm just gonna keep walking. And you know, of course I had like music on that was like, you know, some of it was negative or whatever, but it's still like I did, I did get a bit of relief when I got back and I was basically exhausted. I slept better. I still was bummed out, I still woke up in the morning, I was still depressed in the morning, but it was like it it really so that was one of my things. So walking has always been like myself. You can get that little like and you guys have talked about this too for the whole resiliency thing. Yeah, that's all like creating a toolkit that and it it should be you know modified for you, like a toolkit that helps you. I mean, certainly you can look things up, research things or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

You can try stuff. I mean, yeah, I I encourage people to try things because I tried a million different things. I'm also you know a walking maniac, just like you. And and walking is I always say my best ideas come from walking. And whenever I walk, it's like the kind of thing where it's like, why don't I and I what when I get out, I'm I'm outside in nature as much as I can be in the middle of a big city, but still there's enough nature around me and just the air and the sun or whatever's happening, it's amazing for me. So that works really well. And I agree to music and my music and walking. I can really even even if I didn't set out for that to happen, I'll be kind of like, oh my god, that's right, that's right. This makes me feel better. And again, it's that I don't know, and it's maybe it's my cuckoo crazy brain, but it's like it has a real bad habit of forgetting the good stuff and just wanting to go back to that place. So again, um we're all a work in progress. I I don't want anyone to ever think I have figured all this out because I have not. I do my best. I got in recently, I and I I tried like um cognitive behavioral therapy, CBT. I've done parts work, Richard Schwartz part work parts work. I've tried all different kinds of things through this stuff, and recently I got into EFT, which is um emotional freedom technique, the tapping, and I've had incredible results with that. And I think part of that is where I am now too. So some things might not work. I I jokingly said I knew about it, but I think my ex-husband did it or was into it. So I was like, well, that's gotta be dumb. That can't be good. So I left let it go. And I was doing one of my courses on Insect Timer, and the person did EFT, and I'm like, well, okay, I'll try it, but I think it's dumb. And it was like, and it wasn't an immediate thing, it was like later on I had this weird shift in my thinking, and I thought, was that because of that? So I started doing it more. And so it's again, it's an experiment, it's trial and error, and finding the things and hoping you kind of find a way to fall into it when you need to. Yeah. And and you just get better at it. I mean, it it's a again, the cure for the disease of me was understanding that I'm just gonna be on this path and try to get better at it. And there was so much relief in that because it wasn't like anymore trying to find, God knows, I went through, you know, all the pills, I went through all the cuckoo crazy ideas I would read about for, you know, trying to do things because I was looking for one thing to fix everything. And spoiler alert, that is not how life works. Yeah, there really just isn't one. Um, whatever it is. But um I'm really glad you said that, Laura, because one of the things that uh what you said earlier, um, about resilience. And we kind of came into this talking about pivot when we first came up with this idea. When Anna and I came up with this idea of pivoting and a podcast about pivoting or whatever it was. And as the more we talked about it, and the more we talked about it, like you and other people, it was like a lot of this is about resilience. And it was kind of weird because I had been on this like um my like a goal for the year, a senkalpa or whatever like they call it in Buddhism or whatever, was I wanted to work on my resilience. And I didn't at the time ever sort of connect the two. But boy, uh that is um again, it's a skill you have to work at. It's not something that I think you can just it's it's it's hard because what is implicit in resilience is that something didn't go your way. Something didn't go the way you thought it was gonna, hoped it was gonna work. I very recently uh went through a a little um it I I was prepared for this, very much prepared for this. So it was not, but I am trying to get an agent for my book, and I started writing my first query letters and I sent out my first one a while ago, and luckily Ann really encouraged me, and it was it, I mean, it it's very brilliant advice. It's like, don't just have that one hanging out there for so many reasons. Number one, uh, my uh inspired action, once again, it's like if you're not sending out more query letters, you're not putting the energy toward it, that's not good. That's like not writing right now. That's not good. It's like keep that energy flowing. But also, it's like if you've only got one and they say no, that's gonna hit a little harder. So I put out more query letters and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 43:57

But this week, woo Seriously, we are 100% non-qualified unprofessional armchair psychologists. The Pivot Happens podcast is for entertainment purposes only, and is not a substitute for any form of professional mental or physical health care. If you are experiencing any mental health issues, please reach out and find qualified help. If you do not currently have a support system in place, the NAMI helpline provides the one-on-one help and information necessary to tackle tough challenges that you, your family or friends are facing. Call, text or email with the helpline MF, 10 a.m. to 10 p.m. Eastern Time. 988 Crisis Service available 247. Call 1800-9506264. Text text namey to sixty-two thousand six hundred and forty in a crisis. Call or text nine eight eight.