Karen: what does our therapist think?

We talk to Karen Gordon, our couples therapist, about the health of our actual relationship. We've been seeing her for over three years, and in some ways, she knows us better than our friends and family. We talk with her about our conflict cycle, specific issues we've worked with her on in the past, and the issues we are working with her on now. At the end of the episode, Maxson and Emily ask if we need to "fix" everything before we should get married or have a child.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

What does make a relationship last is do you have the ability to repair after there's a conflict?

SPEAKER_03 0:07

Do you think we have that?

SPEAKER_00 0:08

I think you're learning it.

SPEAKER_04 0:15

Welcome to Should We Get Married.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

My name is Emily Carter.

SPEAKER_04 0:18

My name is Max and Gerecki.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

And in this podcast, we are trying to figure out if we should get legally married to each other.

SPEAKER_04 0:25

Or stay dating forever.

SPEAKER_05 0:28

What's up with people playing? It's so cool these days.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Today's guest is Karen Gordon. She is a couples therapist. She's actually our couples therapist. And we talked to her about our relationship, if we're suited to marriage, and patterns she sees within couples, married and unmarried.

SPEAKER_04 0:45

Let's get into it.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Okay, Max and why did we want to talk to Karen for one of these episodes?

SPEAKER_04 0:52

Yeah. The story I have about people getting married is they're just like, let's get married, and they don't really ask for anyone's advice on it, or even if they should, they just decide in a vacuum if they should. So this is a person who really knows us, knows our conflicts, knows our patterns. And we are just excited to ask her, hey, like, knowing what you know about us and our conflict pattern and our history, do you think we would be suited to be in a long-term relationship to each other? And do you think that we would be served by getting legally married? And I think she'll just have interesting things to say.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

I'm excited to hear her take on us and then her macro take, having had lots of conversations with couples and been with them through big transitions, whether it was from dating to marriage or dating to breaking up or dating to just continuing to date. I'm sure there are some macro trends that she's seen out in the world. And also she has pretty unbelievable insight into our own relationship and patterns.

SPEAKER_04 1:42

We get really personal, we get very vulnerable, we talk about our actual life. We really hope that you appreciate that we're doing this and being open about this stuff. We really hope that also you take all of the little pieces of information and know that there's two hours worth of conversation about each of them. It's not just like at face value all this stuff. So that's our hope and that's our request because I'm sensitive about these things and Emily is like triply sensitive about these things. So we we are making a bid and plea for your patience and like giving us the benefit of the doubt.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

Yeah. We also have a a bit of a a bit of a bit, which is who won therapy.

SPEAKER_04 2:22

Yes, we do. Basically, it's like, does someone have like a freak out or a meltdown or is like behaving inappropriately?

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Or they just think he got it wrong.

SPEAKER_04 2:31

Yeah, yeah. They were the one who was kind of more in the wrong. Yeah, Emily is winning a little a little more than me.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Yeah. They needed to have the unlock and the massaging out of their feelings versus the other person who was coasting.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

And with that, here's our conversation with Karen Gordon, our couples therapist.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

Hooray.

SPEAKER_04 2:54

We are here with Karen Gordon, our very own couples therapist. Thank you, Karen, for coming on the show.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

You're welcome. Couples therapist to the stars. And the stars are us. We are the stars.

SPEAKER_04 3:08

We are the stars.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Yeah, you are stars of my practice. Media darlings, Emily and Max.

SPEAKER_04 3:15

Emily, do you what's the story? Like, how did we first meet Karen?

SPEAKER_02 3:18

I think it was three, three to three and a half years ago. And I was looking for an individual therapist, and I had had a bunch of conversations with people. And I remember talking to Karen, and I thought she was awesome. And she mentioned that she mostly does couples, but she does a couple individuals. And I think something happened with us that week. And I was like, it had stuck in my brain. So we had a session with her, and it was immediately amazing. And we worked with her pretty regularly for maybe a year. And now I would say it's sort of ad hoc. But I love that she's seen us through some hard times and also some really healthy times. Like she knows what we look like in health. So that's helpful. Sometimes I feel like you come to therapists in a distraught moment and they never really see you at like the where you want to be. Totally.

SPEAKER_04 3:57

So later I want to quiz you, Karen, like that first conflict. Do you even remember that? Because I remember you have said that you have a great memory for these kinds of things.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

The very first conflict.

SPEAKER_04 4:06

Yeah, the very first conflict.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

I have like an image of you in like your navy puffer jacket in your backyard, but I can't think of what I have okay. I think the first conflict had to do with sleep. I think it had to do with you not getting a good sleep and Emily was upset about it.

SPEAKER_04 4:27

Oh, that that that tracks.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Nothing has changed.

SPEAKER_04 4:31

No, it's not true. I mean, that must have been before we got fully we before we installed two full queen-size beds into our bedroom that we now sleep in individually.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 4:41

That must have been before that.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

I love that strategy. I sort of I have a vision of we were we had like kind of recently come off of this year away, and you were struggling a bit with your identity and feeling challenged, and somehow we were like missing each other. And we just moved to SF.

SPEAKER_04 4:59

I th oh I think it was a period of me just kind of being a dick because I was so insecure about not having a job, et cetera, et cetera.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

I was gonna say, yeah, remember you that you didn't have a job and that was hard for you, and you were talking about that you had some bad habits and it included not being able to sleep and yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:17

Okay, we'll get to get to our own relationship later. Okay. Right now, I would love for us to get into the Karen Gordon universe. You've been in couples therapy for how long, and how'd you get into it?

SPEAKER_00 5:29

Well, I started out as a wedding photographer and I did that for 20 years. And so my entire life has been in some way kind of trying to understand what makes relationships work, what makes love work, why does it not work? So I spent 20 years photographing weddings and looking at it from the outside in, and then I felt like, you know, that's not enough. Actually, I want to understand what's going on on the inside. So I switched careers and got into working with couples full-time in 2019.

SPEAKER_04 5:59

You were you've been so up close and personal to like the wedding day for people. Did you feel disillusioned with all the pomp and circumstance?

SPEAKER_00 6:08

I do know that some of those fancy weddings, they got divorced within a few months because I was told and asked for refunds sometimes.

SPEAKER_04 6:17

Oh my god. So bold. You took the pictures.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:21

How do you untake the pictures?

SPEAKER_00 6:23

You do not, and you do not give the refund.

SPEAKER_04 6:26

Yeah. Yeah. You never, never do that. What made you want to do the next thing? What made you want to do couples therapy?

SPEAKER_00 6:34

I really had a strong desire to go deeper with people. And like my favorite parts of the wedding were when the bride was getting ready and I could really study the relational dynamics of her and her family. And my favorite part about the wedding was really being able to look at the couple and trying to discern what their relationship was like and how authentic were the vows and what's their body language like. And does it seem like they're gonna make it or not? And like me and my photo assistant would always like take bets on that and talk about the relationship. And that was like always the best part. And I was like, I want to know more. Like, I want to know what it's like when they're not on this day that's just all about show.

SPEAKER_03 7:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

I wanted to be led into like the the underbelly of what a relationship is really like versus how people present it.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

What do you think made you so fascinated by all of this stuff?

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Definitely like my own personal trauma. My parents got divorced when I was nine. And it just left me with this question of like, why didn't that work? What makes a relationship work? How do you make a relationship work? And then just my own very fraught romantic history until quite recently, where relationships were always very difficult for me because I was looking for a man who was like my father, who was a toxic narcissist and always dated men like that. So for me, it was my professional life and my personal life have always been about the same question, which is what makes love work?

SPEAKER_02 8:01

Somehow it's like an unanswerable question that we will all labor to answer forever.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

Although I feel like I'm a lot closer to it than I used to be. When I became a couples therapist, you know, I kind of developed a different idea about it. It's not marriage versus not marriage. It's about like the humility and strength and courage it takes to decide to be in relationship to another person through time. That is really difficult. It takes an incredible amount of vulnerability and I think a lot of staying power that I'm just endlessly impressed at what people are willing to go through and sort of how they're willing to suffer and cause suffering to the other and still stay together.

SPEAKER_02 8:46

It's pretty unbelievable.

SPEAKER_04 8:48

Wow, that's intense. Honestly, that's that's so intense. Karen, you know us really well. You've been with us through all of our like ups and downs. Can you just sort of summarize for us what have been our dark moments, what actually happened, and like what advice did you give us during those times?

SPEAKER_00 9:08

Wow, that's a big assignment. A few things that I have always been aware of are that when you guys are in session, you're always touching each other. There is always physical contact between you. And even when there's been argument and conflict in the session, there is still a great amount of physical affection that feels natural and authentic to me. That tells me a lot about the health of your relationship. And I think it's a really important data point that I have paid attention to since the beginning.

SPEAKER_04 9:41

So funny because anytime we're doing the show, we're fully in different rooms because of the way like the microphones work. Like people probably who are who watch the show or listen to the show, they have no idea that that's typically how we behave. It's actually so aberrant to our normal routine for us to be so far away from each other. But anyway.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Yeah, yeah, which is why when we got on the call, I was like, oh, you're in different places. So that's one thing. And then the other thing is that you're kind to each other. Like even when, usually it's you, Maxine, get upset and raise your voice and might say something. Stop the interview. Even when you might sometimes, on occasion, get angry and raise your voice, there's not contempt. And contempt is, you know, one of the key signs that the relationship is in trouble. And the third most important one is that you guys have a lot of sense of humor with each other. You're able to have conflict and then laugh with each other and be sweet with each other.

SPEAKER_03 10:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

As far as your conflicts go, there was an issue with you, Maxon, and a woman that you worked with.

SPEAKER_04 10:55

And I feel like it had issue is such a strong word for what happened. There was no issue about this almost at all. It was an issue between us. It was a linguistic issue. We had a linguistic issue. I'm sorry, Karen, I hate to interrupt you. Sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

I I don't I don't know what your uh internal emotional experience of the issue was. I just remember that Emily was very distraught and crying about it and felt was feeling jealous and expressed a feeling of jealousy and not being sure if there was like if you had a crush on this woman. And for some reason I feel like it had to do with a sandwich, and I don't know why I think that. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Oh my God. Did it have to do with a sandwich?

SPEAKER_04 11:36

Karen, you're a legendary.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

This is crazy, yeah. That's so funny.

SPEAKER_04 11:43

Emily, will you paint a picture?

SPEAKER_02 11:47

Over the summer, I was with my family and you arrived, and you had just come from your work retreat thing. And you came up to me and you're like, by the way, I think I have kind of a crush on somebody at my work. And you described, I was like, what's it like? Do you want to like continue conversation? Do you want to like stand near her? And you're like, slightly, yes, but I kind of just think she's cute. And I don't feel that way met that many people, and I find her kind of delightful and easy to spend time with.

SPEAKER_04 12:13

Yeah. And and you know, just for context setting, we have an agreement or we had an agreement where it's like if you feel any kind of feelings for another person, you share it and you err on the side of oh of oversharing because we just want to have open communication, then we get to talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

So and I remember being like, I love that. I don't totally know what that feeling is like. You kind of just like it's a little fun. There's like a little bit of extra energy between you two. It feels life-giving and like makes you want to keep dancing or feel happy and in your body and connected to the world. That's so fun. Wow, I'm so happy for you. And we talked it through. I remember being on the couch together, we were before bed chatting about it. And then something happened to my body over the course of a couple days, and this thing contorted into this like evil spirit inside of me where I was like, something horrible is happening. I like could not stop thinking about it. I remember thinking that this was like a situation that was gonna get so blown out of proportion because you were gonna go to the office every day and see this person, and I would have no idea what that was like. I can't come to your office and like check in on you. That'd be super weird. So this is just now a black box of connection. And that really freaked me out. Yeah. But what about the sandwich?

unknown 13:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 13:28

Wait, oh, the sandwich in a second. I want to give more context because I feel it's important.

SPEAKER_03 13:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 13:33

I didn't, I never told this person I had any kind of feeling about them what whatsoever. I said, I have a small crush, which just meant, oh, I think that they're cute and I think that their personality is great. I never shared that with them. I was never like spending, you know, special time with them or like trying to hit them up or like hanging out outside of work one on one. I have never, I never did any of those things. I only said this word crush, which I think required discussion. Okay. Anyway, onto the sandwich.

SPEAKER_02 13:57

I think we just made some pact with each other about how to handle this situation. And I was feeling really good and settled. And I got home and there was a like you had taken home lunch from the office. Like sometimes someone didn't show up to the office and they would leave their food behind. And there was a sandwich, like right where my stuff usually goes with her name like written on a huge like marker.

SPEAKER_04 14:19

Yeah, like my job orders food for everyone. Like you can place your order for food the day before, and then it comes and it has your name on it, obviously. And we have a culture at the office of slacking, being like, like there's a group slack saying, like, hey, like I'm not coming in today anytime I sandwich. So I was like, Oh, I'll I'm gonna bring some food home. Hers having to be available. And it literally just had her name on it. And then Emily walks in and sees her name on the sandwich.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

Oh boy, I get it. I get it.

SPEAKER_02 14:45

Yeah. But I think we just did some nomenclature massaging and figured out like what these words mean to us and clarified what is worth bringing up and what's just like, okay, this is a small thing you can share with yourself. It doesn't have to be uh common knowledge between us. So all of these things were like little speed bumps that helped us avoid big crashes, I think.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

In our recent sessions, I feel like I'm seeing that you've gotten into a negative cycle that's been a little bit more consistent. And that's been around the issue of can I rely on you?

SPEAKER_04 15:26

Specifically Emily feeling that about me. Not so sure about me.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Yeah, Emily feeling that about you.

SPEAKER_02 15:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:31

Do you want to describe that, Emily?

SPEAKER_02 15:34

Yeah. I feel that a couple months ago I transitioned life stages to like my young adult years to my motherhood years. And it is making me see myself and the world and my patterns and our relationship through a different lens and trying to like project out into the future versus like live in this like fun, free present. And there are habits and patterns I think we have and roles that we play in each other's lives that I think are not going to serve us in this next chapter. So I feel really committed to fixing them and working on them and getting them to a place where I feel really excited about being parents together.

SPEAKER_04 16:13

And examples of this are like, you know, we have to book some flights. You'd love for me to be just taking charge, embodying my masculine, booking the flights, not letting you have to like deal with certain things. If I say that I'm going to fix something, you want me to like go fix that thing. If I you want to feel contained. And also you want me to feel really stable emotionally. So you are the one who's able to be a little more loose and you want me to be a you know good platform for you. You have this idea, which I think is somewhat accurate, but not totally accurate, where I live crisis to crisis. Oh, I'm having like a sleep crisis. Then I'm having like an eating crisis, like I ate too much at dinner now, I'm, you know, now I feel like I can't go to bed. Or I am having a work crisis where like there's something that I have to figure out. And it's I'm just kind of not as smooth as you want me to be. And you'd prefer that I be much more smooth, so then it's you who's like, I'm having a baby, and I'm all hands on deck for like supporting Emily.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

I I actually think the example from our last session was a really good example, which is what happened at when you guys were at dinner, the argument around that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:21

Tell us about that, Karen.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

Well, I'd rather you tell about it since it was your cycle.

SPEAKER_04 17:27

Yeah, it makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

We went to dinner with our friend Paul in New York, and we were sat down, and Maxine walks to the table, and immediately Paul and I are like, Maxine's in a really intense mood right now, and it's very felt at the table. Hey, Maxon, how are you doing? What's going on for you right now? Like kind of prodding to acknowledge it or at least bring it out into the open. And Maxon kind of what I now know is like he is feeling this way, but he doesn't want to disturb the dinner or make it about him. And so he'll almost like deny it into existing even more. And of course, after a couple efforts, it does end up rearing its head and kind of takes over the dinner in a way that's okay, but at times frustrating. And um just yeah, talking through how to acknowledge the fact that his moods are big and sometimes they're big in really amazing ways, and sometimes they're big in more challenging ways, and how to talk about it, what to do about it in those moments, how to acknowledge it.

SPEAKER_04 18:26

Yeah. Me be like part of me containing Emily and embodying my masculine and being more stable is not being in just like a really bad mood and then having that infect, like where whoever it is I'm hanging out with or being with. Because I have this thing where I love being honest, I'm very transparent, I talk about anything. So if I'm in a bad mood, I'm kind of like that's just where I'm at right now. But I understand that has a really outsized effect on other people, and I wanna I want to be a much better playmate for people. If I'm at dinner, I want it to be fun. If I'm with Emily and I just want her, I just want her to feel really happy. So I have to figure out how to better do that while still being like true to myself because I'm not gonna be like, I'm having a great day if I'm like not having a great day. So we sort of talked about that with you.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Yeah, I've I've felt that the last few sessions have been a lot deeper. Like, I think that it has to do with where you guys are in this life stage, you're thinking about things more seriously, and you've been together longer, and the things you're talking about have gone a lot deeper beyond just like a bump in the road and a crisis point. There's been a lot more of like, can I count on you? Are you there for me? Are you abandoning me? Are you here for me? That question, are you here for me, is the fundamental question that we're always asking in relationship. Are you here for me? Are you accessible? Are you responsive? And are you engaged? And we ask that question of each other in a thousand different ways. And we can decide, no, you're not, based on eyes going in a certain direction, a certain look on their face, a change in their tone. It's something that we're always tracking for in verbal and nonverbal ways, and we decide it in a millisecond, and then we respond based on that, where we either feel safe or unsafe, secure or insecure.

SPEAKER_04 20:17

Yeah, I think things are getting more serious and permanent in our relationship, and it's kind of making stuff that was yeah, like it's not amazing, but it's not horrible. Like everything's gotta kind of get locked up. Like, I gotta get my my mental hygiene in order, and you know, I don't know. I'm trying to, I'm searching for stuff that Emily has to do before we like can have a child, but I'm struggling to find it.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

Well, and also like let me just say that there's no point in which a couple has figured out their cycle completely and like everything is like at level zero and like great, now they're ready to proceed and have a baby. Like, if a couple waited till they were completely conflict-free to have a baby, nobody would ever have a kid. Like there would be no people left on the planet, right? Like that's not a thing. So just to set your expectations reasonably, like you don't have to get to that place. But what does make a relationship last is do you have the ability to repair after there's a conflict? Because that's where the work is, and that's where the resilience is and the strength in your relationship.

SPEAKER_03 21:27

Do you think we have that?

SPEAKER_00 21:29

I think you're learning it. And I think we've been in earnest really working on that in these last sessions. I think you've done a good job intuitively up to this point, but because things are getting more serious and the conflicts are getting a little bit more challenging, I think that you you're working on learning how to do that and getting the skills to do that in a better way.

SPEAKER_02 21:52

Something that we have been thinking about is obviously there's always a lot to work on, but we really love our relationship right now. Is some fear that like adding marriage to the equation will change it or alter it or like set it in stone in a way that feels not it will stagnate almost. And I'm curious if there if you've noticed a period between dating and marriage where a couple is like reckoning with that, or marriage does in fact change dynamics, or if this is a myth in our heads.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

I think that can happen in any relationship, married or not, and it has to do with taking each other for granted.

SPEAKER_04 22:41

So any relationship that is going to be a long-term relationship is going to be you're going to need to keep an eye out for this.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

I think one of the the biggest dangers is not really the right word because, but when couples have kids, a lot of times what naturally starts to happen is that the attention goes from the relationship of the two of them, all their energy goes into the children, and they're tired and they're overextended. And then we start getting into these negative conflict cycles, and then it erodes the emotional safety of the relationship and which creates more reactivity, which then creates less safety, and then it becomes a negative cycle that can make it so that the person that used to be your safe haven becomes your biggest liability.

SPEAKER_04 23:36

So don't do that, everyone who's listening.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

Well, but you're not doomed because repair is the most important thing. So it's not that you can't ever get into conflict. Every couple gets into conflict, that's natural and normal. But can you repair afterwards? And what I mean by repair is are you do you have curiosity for how the person got hurt? And can you validate how they got hurt? Can you validate their feelings and can you empathize with them? And when you can both do that with each other, then that's how you begin to really repair and build resilience. And then when you get into a conflict, it's not an existential threat because what you're learning is, hey, we can get disconnected and it's okay because we can get back into connection. We know how to do that. We've learned how to do that, we have that skill.

SPEAKER_04 24:24

Okay. I I have a question about marriage. When you get married, it's harder to separate. Like if you're not married, it's like, oh, well, she could leave me whenever, and it's not gonna be that big a deal. But then you get married and it's like, oh, she probably won't, or it'll be a way bigger pain to do so. So maybe I don't have to be like on my game the same way. I'm imagining this recent conversation that Emily and I had, where she's like, hey, if you you got to change a couple things about how you're living your life and the way you we relate to each other and the way you relate to yourself because we want to have a child and I want to have a great life. And if you don't change these things, like we probably won't be able to be together and I will leave you. Let's say we were having that conversation, but it's 10 years from now and we're married, she has way less leverage because she's like she could leave easily. So is it is marriage hurtful to keep to people, people's relationship in that it maybe makes people lazier?

SPEAKER_00 25:21

Well, I think that if you're staying in a marriage or you're acting a certain way in your marriage because you think that your partner's not gonna leave because it takes too much effort, that relationship's not going very well. Is that really the relationship you want to be in with somebody who would leave you if it was a little bit easier? But they don't want to do the work to leave you, and so they're just gonna stay.

SPEAKER_04 25:46

One thing that people have said to us as we've been doing this project is Max and Emily, I'm so happy that I was married because in my relationship we went through some serious challenges. And had we not been married, we might have broken apart. Like, do you think there's validity, there's validity to that?

SPEAKER_00 26:03

I think there's a lot of validity to that. I think that sometimes when you've made that level of commitment to somebody, you've gotten up in front of everyone you know and love and committed to that person, and then you go through a difficult time. There's a different level of gravity to that where you're willing to do the work that otherwise you might have just walked away.

SPEAKER_03 26:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

There are still plenty of examples of people who decide, I'm just done, and they leave and they walk out, they get a divorce, you know. And there are also plenty of, you know, couples who are not married and who are deeply committed and are willing to do that work. And it doesn't have anything to do with being married.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

Do you have a way you think about like, oh, this is there's nothing here to bring back from the dead?

SPEAKER_00 26:53

Well, I will never tell anybody whether they should break up or not. But what I will say is that if you and your partner are willing to accept that you do not get into these really painful, stuck spots alone, that it takes two, that there's two of you in this relationship and you created this conflict together and you're equally responsible for it. If your partner doesn't agree to that fundamental orientation about what's happening in your relationship and they're really committed to the story that it's only your fault and you're the one that has the problem, then it's going to be really difficult to repair that. Both people have to be willing to look at the role that they're playing in your negative cycle and be willing to do the work to learn how to repair and learn how to take responsibility for the part that's yours and they can make it work.

SPEAKER_04 27:48

I'm not convinced that that's even true in our relationship, my relationship with Emily. I kind of feel like for a lot of stuff, I'm just the problem and she is not a problem.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

I disagree.

SPEAKER_04 27:58

Well, but me being like angry. I'm like easily triggered. She'll say something that like speaks to some insecurity of mine or makes me feel like she's manipulating me or doesn't or she's just trying to like control me. I get really triggered around con being controlled or author or authority or whatever. And I'll just get kind of like snippy or n or aggressive. What's Emily doing?

SPEAKER_02 28:22

Well I go ahead. I feel like I'm having a response and then something starts. Like there's a there's someone else out there who is like okay, sounds good. Sorry feeling this way. And then it ends there. So yes, maybe it's the instigating factor, but something starts to happen because there are two people in the room, and that's the thing to deal with. There's like your part to deal with, which is like your reaction, and you can do that on your own, and then there's our part to deal with, which is like how do I fit into this and how do we collaborate on this together, or at least see it as like something we co-create.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

When I say that it's both people, when you're doing that behavior, Maxon, Emily is feeling something inside. There's some sort of reaction that she's having, an emotional response that she's having, an attachment need that she's having in that moment as well.

SPEAKER_03 29:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

So it could be I don't feel safe. It could be I feel like I'm getting in trouble. If it could be I feel like I can't figure out how to satisfy you or make you happy. There's a lot of things that could be going on for her that are leading to the behavior that she's doing. And there's also something going on inside for you. It could be I don't feel like I'm a priority right now, or I don't feel like I'm being accepted right now, or I don't feel like I matter right now.

SPEAKER_03 29:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Right. So when I say that there's that there's it's always two people, neither of you is operating in a vacuum. You're responding to each other, and you're both having needs in that moment that are not being met.

SPEAKER_04 29:59

Thank you for advocating against yourself, Emily. I found that very generous. That's sweet.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

As we wrap up, based on what you know about us and based on this conversation, Karen, do you think we should get married? I will never answer that question.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

I knew it. I would I would never play God and think that I know better than you guys know about what's right for you and what you should do. I think that based on what I know about you, there's a lot of love between you. And I think whatever you choose, you have a good shot at having a solid relationship as long as you keep working with me weekly.

SPEAKER_04 30:44

Of course. Or perhaps three three times weekly.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

I get it. We get it.

SPEAKER_04 30:51

Do you think that we have it in us to like get out of the cycles we're in?

SPEAKER_00 30:55

I absolutely think you have the capacity to get out of those cycles, but I think that you need still some work to understand what's happening in your cycle in the deeper layers and to get more comfortable sharing in a vulnerable way with each other. I don't think that you're currently where it would probably be good for you to be in terms of fully being able to repair when you guys get in those stuck spots.

SPEAKER_04 31:25

Do you think we have to get there before we get legally married if we were to get legally married?

SPEAKER_00 31:29

I don't think you have to because people get married whenever they choose to get married. You know, I've shot weddings where couples are having huge arguments on the day of the wedding.

SPEAKER_03 31:40

So wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Not that I advised you to do that.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

Well, thank you so much. We love talking to you. Thank you for exploring our relationship with us and your own relationships and your history with marriage and insights. It's been awesome.

SPEAKER_04 31:56

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

Thank you guys. You're awesome. Thank you, Karen.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

Okay, that was a super fun conversation with Karen Gordon, who we love. She is so knowledgeable and wise and interesting and fun to talk to, and she knows us so well. Maxine, what was that like for you?

SPEAKER_04 32:21

I thought it was so cool. I thought that talking to our own couples therapist and getting to learn so much about her and the way she thinks and her background and her life is just a beautiful opportunity that never would have happened if we weren't doing this project and that no one really gets to have. I was really impressed with her recall of our issues over the last three and a half years. I thought it was incredible. And she really cares.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

Yeah. I feel like we got really deep in with her, with us, and with the world.

SPEAKER_04 32:47

Well, if you could make a request to our listeners as they listen to this, like what is it that you're hoping that they're taking stock of?

SPEAKER_02 32:54

I hope that hearing this makes everyone feel more assuaged in ways that they might feel shame about how they showed up for themselves or in relationship. And oftentimes we're we just make things a bigger deal in our minds. And it's scary to say certain things out loud, but I promise. It's all very human and okay. Yeah. Uh Maxine, did the conversation make you feel that you were putting a pebble or stone or small-shaped item in the bucket of marriage or the bucket of no marriage, stay dating?

SPEAKER_04 33:26

Thanks so much for asking the question, Emily.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

Yeah, yeah, of course, Maxine.

SPEAKER_04 33:29

Right, co-host Emily. Um I that for me, this conversation was definitely a pebble in the bucket of get married. I was really heartened thinking back through our different conflicts and patterns, and I'm like, I just feel like we've made so much progress and we've surmounted so many different challenges. So I feel that we have a good process. I feel that we have a lot to go. Oh, and I also feel heartened that, you know, I asked Karen, like, do you think we have to solve all of these things before we get legally married? And she's like, No, you can solve it, you know. If everyone waited to be perfect before they got married or before they had a child, like no one would ever be married or would nobody have a child because it was perfect. So for me, this was really heartening about just our relationship and our ability to survive long term. So turning the question back to you, Emily, big surprise. Did this conversation make you want to put a pebble in the bucket of get married? Or drop that little pebble into the bucket of stay dating?

SPEAKER_02 34:26

Forever. I actually felt putting in the bucket of not married. I felt she had sort of a casualness around marriage, which is like, yeah, sure, if you want to, it doesn't have to be set in stone. This actually doesn't make that much of a difference in terms of your connection. I don't know. So something about how she was talking about it was like, it's really not about the marriage, it's really about the relationship.

SPEAKER_04 34:47

Yeah. And in our next episode, you're gonna hear some of this. One benefit, if Max ever gets jammed up with the law, if you guys have that contract beforehand, you could come see him in the slammer. That'll be a real testament to your commitment. Should We Get Married is an original series by Easily Wowed and Bad Cooley Productions. This episode was created by me, Max and Gerecki.

SPEAKER_02 35:11

And me, Emily Carter.

SPEAKER_04 35:13

And our producer, Ramoy Phillip.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

Theme music is the song Fake Romantic by the band Melt, logo and brand design by Madeline Vogue.

SPEAKER_04 35:21

Sound design and mixing by Ramoy Phillip. If you liked Karen and you liked her vibe and you might want to work with her, you can go to talk2kg.com or you can email her at talk2kgnow at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

There are so many of you out there who are asking these exact same questions, and we don't all have to investigate marriage on our own. Subscribe to Should We Get Married and learn with us as we make our decision.

SPEAKER_05 35:45

You told me on a subway. Keep me out in the snake, won't let me ever put a scalpers. I need to let it go.