Rob: should we have a prenup?

We talk to Rob Schuham, a friend and author, about how he gave up 90% of his net worth to his ex-wife in his divorce more than 20 years ago. He walks us through the arc of his relationship, explaining how he ignored tensions early on while convincing himself that living together, getting engaged, and then getting married would somehow resolve deeper incompatibilities. After this emotional and financial journey, Rob spent decades firmly against ever getting married again but, now, he is warming up to it provided the relationship is grounded in love, reality, and a prenuptial agreement. At the end of the episode, Maxson and Emily talk about if we want a prenup, and if we are in love with the real, current versions of ourselves - or a projection of who we hope the other person will evolve into.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

So when I divorced over two decades ago, I didn't just reject marriage as an institution. It cost me dearly. And financially, I gave up pretty much everything.

SPEAKER_05 0:14

Welcome to Should We Get Married.

SPEAKER_03 0:16

My name is Emily Carter.

SPEAKER_05 0:18

My name is Maxon Jurek.

SPEAKER_03 0:20

And in this podcast, we're trying to figure out if we should get legally married to each other.

SPEAKER_05 0:24

Or stay dating forever.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

What's up with people playing it so cool these days? Today's guest is Rob Shoehan, a coach, writer, and a friend who went through a divorce where he lost most of his financial assets, never wanted to get legally married again, and now, 20 years later, is open to it.

SPEAKER_05 0:45

Let's get into it. Even if it's just a one-liner saying, hey, this is this is really fun, or I listen to it on my way to work or whatever. That would make us really happy.

SPEAKER_03 1:04

I just ran into a friend, Emma. Shout out Emma and Ryan, who said that she and her partner listen every week and have a conversation about the topic. And I bet there are so many others listening who are having stories like that, and we would super love to hear them. It could be one sentence, six paragraphs, 35 pages. We'll read all of it. We would love, love, love. Any feedback.

SPEAKER_05 1:21

So yeah, you can reach out to us at swiggamproject at gmail.com. That's swgmproject at gmail.com. Swiggumproject at gmail.com. Send us a note. It would make us super, super happy.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:33

Emily, in this interview, we talk to Rob Shoeham and we talk about prenuptial agreements. We talk about what it's like to be married to someone who you love and have that marriage get really, really difficult and break apart. We talk about going through a really tumultuous, intense divorce that led to financial ruin and how that was something that Rob leaned into. He was like, okay, that's okay with me. He's a friend of yours. He's a writer.

SPEAKER_03 2:02

Yeah, he recently wrote a book called Man Sense, a modern gentleman's guide to real courtship in a short attention span world. And I haven't read it, but I think I've seen snippets here and there on Instagram. And it looks super interesting and kind of like a manual for courtship and uh how to be a gentleman in a world ruled by dating apps and phones.

SPEAKER_05 2:21

Without further ado, here's our interview with Rob Shoeham.

SPEAKER_03 2:25

Phew!

SPEAKER_05 2:35

We are here with Rob Shoeham. Emily, tell us about how we ended up sitting here with Rob Shoeham today and who he is to you.

SPEAKER_03 2:44

Rob is my friend, and I met Rob on International Party Island Wellness Mecca, Abisa.

SPEAKER_05 2:53

That's where he met. Okay, so Rob, why'd you say yes?

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Uh, well, let's see. Number one, because it's Emily, and I think she's so cool, but she's she's a great human and great energy. And and the inquiry, you know, about me potentially participating in this was really actually quite interesting to me. Um, because I've had some strong positions on this.

SPEAKER_05 3:17

Yeah. You have been, you were married, you went through a divorce, you had 20 plus years of being not very open to marriage, and now you're open to marriage again. And I think that this is such a helpful uh perspective for us to pick into. So I'd love to start with what was that first love story experience like? Where'd you meet, and what was the story?

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Yeah, I'll caveat it by saying um that my ex-wife, uh also the mother of our child, um was, you know, she and I actually have a great friendship. Um, so that was a Herculean feat to get there, right? But we it wasn't always that way.

SPEAKER_05 4:03

You you met when you were how old and you married when you were how old?

SPEAKER_01 4:06

We met when I was, let's see, 20. I we met when I was 24. Um, we started dating when I was 25. We got engaged at 26, married at 28, kid at 31.

SPEAKER_05 4:23

Okay. Kid at 31, and then divorced at what age?

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Like 33. But she and I met on the job. Um, we we both worked in an advertising agency in San Francisco. Um, I I actually had applied for and got the job that she was gunning for and had been working hard towards. Uh, and she she is originally from Omaha. She went to Stanford um and then went to work at this advertising agency that we were both at um because she wanted to stay in the Bay Area. And I'm like this new person who kind of came in, swooped in, took the job that she wanted, um, and therefore she hated me. Um we just kind of got to know each other. And then at some point, she actually asked me out. Okay. I was a little like, wait, are we supposed to be doing this? Don't is this permitted at this at this advertising agency? So we dated, we fell in love, we ended up getting engaged, we got married in Napa Valley. Long ass story short, was part of a team that moved a bicycle company to Boulder, Colorado. That's how I ended up back in Colorado. And then probably two years after we were in Colorado, we we broke up. So we yeah, so we separated and then eventually divorced.

SPEAKER_03 5:42

How did you know that it was time to get divorced versus keep working on it?

SPEAKER_01 5:47

We had tried everything, couples therapy. We were just not getting along. And by her own admission, she had some trauma. There was a lot of stuff being projected on me. It always takes two to tango. You know, anybody who's like blaming the other person for a divorce solely is ridiculous in my book. I did not know how to handle things like her anger or her upset. She was a raging perfectionist. At some point, after years of being in that nine-year container, I think I just was exhausted by not living up to her standards and I kind of gave up. It didn't matter what I did. It felt like it just wasn't good enough for her. I couldn't hold the criticism either, right? I did not have the personal development or capacity to hold that and work with her through it. So it just created irreconcilable tensions over time. We gave it every shot we had. We separated, and I said to her, I want to exhaust every option for us to try and stay in this together. Let's do therapy. I don't care how many times a week we go, but let's just do it. And I remember the session that we were in, where she kind of erupted and said, I'm not the one who has to change. He has to do all the changing. Whoa. And I was like, I think I'm done. And that was that. To her credit, a couple of years later, after she had done an enormous amount of therapy and trauma work and everything else, she came back to me and she said to me, You were right, I was wrong, and I feel horrible about this. And yeah, that was a very poignant moment. And it was also an overture from her to say, may, maybe we can try this again. And but by that time, I was I was gone. I just I couldn't, I couldn't turn back around. So, and I absolutely love her. And like I said, she's a dear friend. We found our way. She's remarried to the exact right man for her. And he is amazing. And they have been together for 15 years. And he, I I consider him a friend. And so we have we've created something that actually is so beautiful. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:11

That's so cool. I I love that I love that story. And I feel like you've been around the block long enough to have these come around points. Yeah. You feel like looking back on this, you made a mistake getting married to that person, or do you not consider it a mistake?

SPEAKER_01 8:28

It's a great question because I've I've actually pondered that more than a few times, particularly because she is in such a beautiful marriage now. You know, it seemed like everybody in their late 20s, back in that era, they were all getting married. And so it's like I just had reinforcement from all over the place. And and my ex-wife, she's great on paper. You know, she's awesome on paper. So the story I kept telling myself is she's going to become this thing, you know, this person that I have projected all over her, even though it doesn't feel like that in the present moment. So yeah, I had lots of reinforcement from around me, but then I also was reinforcing it with my own story about the person she could become. And then that also I could become to make this marriage work.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

One of the things that's thrown around a lot as people talk about marriage and divorce is like divorce is so messy, so it's expensive. You're opening yourself up to it's so expensive. I'm curious how that affected you financially. What does it look like? Like, how do you approach that process? What happens in that process?

SPEAKER_01 9:37

So when I divorced over two decades ago, I I didn't just reject marriage as an institution. It it had cost me dearly. And financially, I gave up pretty much everything in that process. I gave up like our total net worth combined between the two of us. She got 90% of it. And it was mostly because I just wanted peace. And one of the ways that I could buy peace and get out of, you know, I had child support I had to deal with, but there's also something called maintenance. What's maintenance? Maintenance is like uh alimony. It's you're you're paying for that person's lifestyle, right? And I it in my mind, I couldn't go there. I knew like writing a check every month for child care um or for any of the things associated with uh parenting, I have no problem with. Anything else over and above, I knew I would be incredibly resentful. So I pretty much walked away from everything, you know. Like I had enough money to like pay rent for a year and that kind of stuff. You know, it's like, okay. But I also knew I was capable of like rebuilding. I was seeing it with enough perspective that knowing her at the time or that version of her at the time, I would have ended up in court for years, right? I just would have. So that's why I was like, take it all. I don't care. You know, give me something so I can eat and pay rent, but but you can have it all. But the other piece of it was that I carried it as a personal failure. Like I literally thought that was the pinnacle of personal failure that I, that I couldn't, I couldn't make a marriage work. And so I shouldered a huge amount of that responsibility and really beat myself up, you know, on that. And it was also like embarrassing too, because all those friends of mine that got married, you know, no matter how tough their marriages were, they were sticking with it. So I was like the first to get divorced.

SPEAKER_06 11:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

And because of that, for more than 20 years, I was very clear with like every woman I dated that marriage was not on the table. I even ended a relationship several years ago with somebody who I thought I was gonna live with the rest of my life because she ended up wanting marriage in the end and I didn't. So, and you know, and then life kind of did what it tends to do. It introduced complexity.

SPEAKER_03 12:04

Damn it.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

And it's funny because now I'm in a relationship where, because of visa realities, marriage could become a practical option if she can't get this 01 visa approved, which she's been working at for months and months and months. My current girlfriend, she's so independent, she doesn't want to be married. And which, by the way, very refreshing, right? To come out of a relationship where somebody's like, put a ring on it if you want to live with me, to I will never get married nor have children, you know, which for me, I'm like, check two boxes.

SPEAKER_05 12:36

I want to click into one thing that we haven't covered that much on the show and in our thinking. I want to talk about the financial penalties that occur when you get divorced. You said you lost 90% of what you guys had built together. Um, and you, and just to get it right, you could have whatever selected the option in your separation to pay child support and pay spousal maintenance, which is a monthly payment so that your ex-spouse can maintain a lifestyle that they were having when they were with you. You did not want to be writing a monthly maintenance check. So you said, okay, I'm just gonna give you more of just the assets that we have, and then I won't be unhooked to be having that monthly financial relationship with you. Is that accurate?

SPEAKER_01 13:23

That is spot on accurate.

SPEAKER_05 13:25

What like what determines who gives who the money and why is that even happening?

SPEAKER_01 13:31

I was making more money at the time. I was certainly stressed financially because I was it was my first company that I started. So I was really leveraged. But my take home every month was considerably higher than hers. And in the state of Colorado, where I was primarily living, mom gets favored. It's just, you know, she does from a childcare perspective as well as a financial perspective. Okay. I also knew her well enough to know that it was going to be highly charged and quite contentious when it comes to financial resources. So I suggest I suggested to my attorney, what if I just give her the house, give her a bunch of cash? I'll take that risk because I have I I have faith in myself. She's happy because she gets way more than she thought up front. And then she's got financial options for years. You know, she could sell the house and rent, she could do. There's a lot of stuff she could do. And and he said novel, and he said potentially workable. So that's what we did. Wow. You know, and she seemed extremely relieved and happy. And what it did is it just it just erased a body of tension because I knew we were gonna have tension around child care and parenting. So it's like I can focus on one thing, I just can't deal with multiple layers of things to deal with. And I'm really glad I did it. Yeah, it's a peace tool. And by the way, she also, and over the course of time and over the years, she asked for more child support and literally almost every time without much contention, I'm like, fine. And I called it paying for peace. I'm just like, my energy, yeah, for me to have negative energy around that is gonna take away from my energy that I want to put into building my company. So I was just like, okay, I'm just gonna do that. Yeah. Did you guys have a prenup? Nope. Ask me the next question because I know it's gonna be a good one. Or I'll ask I'll ask myself in front of you. Okay, ask me. Ask you, ask, ask us you. Should I have had a prenup? Yes.

SPEAKER_06 15:42

That's what I was gonna say next.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

I would say the answer to that is generally yes. I think it's a really good idea. When we first started seeing each other, we didn't really have any money. So it just wasn't even a construct at that time. If I got married again ever, given my evolving position on marriage, um, I would definitely do a prenup. And and I think, you know, uh you've heard the term probably good fences make for good neighbors.

SPEAKER_05 16:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

If you're advancing in yourself enough, you've done enough personal development work to know that a discussion like that um could be quite edgy for some people, but might not be edgy if you are really approaching marriage and relationship from a very healthy perspective. It's nice to have it framed out before jumping into something. It just is. That's my position. I would recommend it to pretty much anybody now.

SPEAKER_03 16:43

You're almost prepaying for peace instead of post-paying for peace.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

You're pre-paying for peace. And the truth is you might sign a prenup and you know, most of it most of it sticks, but then there's always extenuating circumstances that change and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_05 16:59

Aaron Powell Would you only get married again if you had a prenuptial agreement?

SPEAKER_01 17:03

Yeah.

unknown 17:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:04

That's for sure. So that's a big part of the shift in your mind of becoming more you're like 20 years of not wanting marriage basically at all, and then realizing that you are open to it, provided that there's like some what you call fences in place. That's a big part of you being open to it.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

I want to be careful there, right? Because there's a bit of a stark binary that you just kind of posited here. And I almost look at it as like is not a marriage with special emphasis on if only there is a prenup. You know what I mean? Because for me to for me to personally step into marriage again, it would have to be such a love story, you know, with as much reality uh cranked into that partnership as possible so as to diffuse all of the projections. You know, you gotta love somebody for exactly who the fuck they are right now. And and so if you're pining for a future state that is different than the reality is right now, then those are not healthy grounds for marriage, you know, nor long-term partnership in general. And so the love story would have to be uh not only fantastic, but also really grounded in some piece of reality or a significant piece of reality. And then further on the reality stuff is it's like, yeah, prenup to me, it's like that's it's like a gate you go through, the same gate that you have to go through to go get your marriage certificate, the same gate you would go through to organize some sort of ceremony around it, right? These are it's just they're structural gates to go through that don't feel onerous, don't feel like it's a thing hanging over my head. And like I know people that have been married multiple times and the prenup is contentious and it's painful. And it's just like I hear the prenup negotiations and I'm just like, Jesus Christ, why are you guys getting married? You know, like the prenup is painful. It doesn't have to be joyful, but if it's painful, that's it not a great sign, you know, because then there's such a transactional quality to the marriage that you've lost the love story somewhere. It's hard to reset the love story when you go through a contentious prenuptial negotiation.

SPEAKER_05 19:34

Yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:35

Yeah. I'm really struck by this like the love story and the reality. And like you said, we're all attached to this story. And oftentimes the story doesn't work, people don't end up together, but still we are like culturally obsessed with this forever love and remain committed to them. And there's something that like drives us forward because of that connection to that. It's just like a story as old as time. And at the same time, you've got a person in front of you. Of course, they're gonna change, but you can't expect any specific sort of change. You've just got to like level with the person there and make realistic decisions and go through realistic hoops to make sure that the love is grounded in reality. And we're like holding both all the time, this like beautiful, fantastical Disney style princess prince love story and the reality of life and things.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

My my mother, who is a therapist and like spiritual person and has led retreats all over the world since the 60s, just like this phenomenal woman who just she's like done it all. And she is hilarious because as a psychotherapist, she's advising people and doing marriage counseling, doing that stuff all the time. And she's like, listen, marriage is like this. You know, the prince and princess ride into the sunset after the marriage ceremony, they get home, they get into bed, and he farts. You know, it's like thank you for the reality, you know. I love that. Not useful if I want to get married again, but thank you for that dose of reality.

SPEAKER_03 20:54

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

I hate when the spiritual community overuses the term container. Like it can throw up, actually. Um and it's kind of funny because really one of the few things that I would see a container, the use of that term applied to is marriage. Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_06 21:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

Yeah. So so if you could look at it as a conscious container for for for growth, responsibility, and partnership, that to me feels very healthy and and starts to soften it a little bit. It's almost like setting an intention. Like, what is this going to be for us?

SPEAKER_05 21:30

But like, isn't that isn't that how most people see it? What what what's the alternative that you're comparing it to?

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Performative, institutionalized, doing it without thinking about it. Ceremony, yeah, doing it without thinking, just because you think you should be in it. You know, throughout the course of my relationship with my now ex-wife, you know, it wasn't like the tensions came up after we were married. The tensions were there, you know, and they started early and I ignored them and I overrode them. Them because I didn't know how to do it any other way. And so what I kept thinking was well, each increase in commitment to each other would fix it. Right. So it was like we had some tensions before we lived together. Then I was like, oh, we'll live together. That'll fix it. We lived together for a while. Tensions still came up. Okay. Um, we let's get engaged. That'll fix it. Got engaged. Didn't fix it. Well, marriage will fix it. Right.

SPEAKER_05 22:30

Yeah. Yeah. You gotta be, you gotta be really down for whatever is happening together at that at that moment. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 22:37

Yeah. It also makes me think like that what you're saying are like if there's tension or confusion or angst, like adding the container to that is actually not gonna fix it. You've got to fix that, like not the structure. Yeah, like people get a dog or have a baby or get married in the hopes that that changes what's inside, but like you're just changing the outside.

SPEAKER_05 22:56

Yep. Yep. And you think Emily and I should have a prenup to take that to the next step?

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Well, if I said no now, I think that would sound a little bit critical.

SPEAKER_05 23:08

Yeah, I'm curious.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

So how about this? I'll say it's a yes and, and I would say it's a great test, you know, to see if you can get through really uncomfortable conversations. I I like the idea of that test. Like I said, if I get married again, I'm definitely gonna have a prenup, and that could be a really uncomfortable conversation for someone. But I also know in my heart of hearts, that is a test that we should have now rather than later in a much more negative, much more highly charged environment.

SPEAKER_03 23:37

Yeah. It's like going on a going on a big trip with someone or going through hardship. It's just you get to see more angles of them. It's more information as well as being practical.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Yes, there's definitely the pragmatics of it, but I also think it's kind of an exercise in boundary setting, too.

SPEAKER_03 23:54

Okay, Rob, I have known you for some years and you have known Maxon for some days.

SPEAKER_05 23:59

Yeah, exactly. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 24:01

Um I like him, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

Good. Me too.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

He seems like a good boy. Such a good boy. Does he feed you? Does he feed you well?

SPEAKER_03 24:14

Uh this is a question we ask every guest at the end. Uh, do you think we should get legally married?

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Oh, interesting. How long have you guys been together? About five years. Oh, you're five years into this?

SPEAKER_05 24:27

Well, not five years into the show. That's a more recent game. No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Five years into five years into your relationship.

SPEAKER_05 24:33

Five years of doing the show, it's kind of like that's a problem. Don't die. We got an issue.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

I was gonna say 16 months of filming and stuff like that, and you haven't done a fucking prenup. What are you? Where's this blind spot? So I mean, uh I haven't seen you two together. You know what I mean? Like I haven't seen you in a social setting, and I haven't actually experienced your love. I'm guessing if you're having this, I will make up that you guys are in a love story and considering a long-term future together, you guys both seem very well suited for each other. And you both have great teeth. So I gotta give you that. That's huge. Yeah. And, you know, great, so therefore great smiles. You guys seem like a good fit, you know, but a pixelated version of it. I love to get to know you guys together and and and give you a final verdict. Now, if you're if this is a long-term play and you guys have a minimal amount of tensions and a maximal amount of working through things together and are absolutely deeply in love and know you want to make babies together or not or not make babies, maybe you just want puppies and kittens. Um, yeah, then certainly consider the possibility of marriage. And if this is a thing that you guys think will advance the ball for you, you look great together. I'll tell you that too. So thanks.

SPEAKER_05 26:02

It's been lovely getting to know you, Rob. Thanks for being with us and opening up to us and letting us in. All right, you guys. Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Much love to both of you.

SPEAKER_03 26:11

Thank you so, so much. This was awesome.

SPEAKER_05 26:23

That concludes our interview with Rob. Thank you, Rob. That was awesome. We talked about a lot of things. We talked about prenuptial agreements, we talked about making sure to love the person you're actually with, not a person you are hoping that they change into being later. And when it comes to prenuptial agreements, Rob has a very clear take. He thinks that they're really helpful, he thinks that they're great. He's also traumatized and he's just one person. So if you out there have a different take on prenuptial agreements, uh different experience, different opinion, please, please, please tell us and maybe we can get you on the show and explore that because that'd be amazing. So you can reach out to us at swigumproject at gmail.com. SWGM project at gmail.com. So yeah. We would love to hear from you. So a couple of things, Emily. We talked about making sure to love the person that you are with right at this moment, not a projection you have of who they might be in the future. Uh, and I wanted to ask you if you feel like you love the me who I am now, or you are you putting any projections on me?

SPEAKER_03 27:25

I feel this topic has come up a lot. And it's like the only thing that is true is that the person you're with will change. And also you cannot expect them to change or have any like hopes and dreams about what exactly that looks like. It's like both at the same time.

SPEAKER_05 27:36

I guess it's like it's impossible for them to for you to guarantee that they change in the ways that you want. So you best be okay with their process of changing and who they are right now.

SPEAKER_03 27:45

Yes. But all to say, I love who you are right now, and I do not love a projection of you. I'm sure there are little projections I have, and I'm looking forward to like bursting those and seeing who's there when some of that clears away. I think that's just human nature.

SPEAKER_05 27:59

But we did have a series of conversations earlier this year where you wanted me to be different and you did talk to me about that, and we have been working on that, and I've been investing in that. So I wanted to ask about that. And we talked about this on the Karen episode.

SPEAKER_03 28:12

I feel really strongly that I didn't want you to be different. There were just like skills that I wanted to be built on top of who you are, but none of it was about like who you fundamentally are. I've never struggled with that. Um, or been like your natural instincts in a moment, or your heart, or your like intentions are not what I like. Um, do you agree with that?

SPEAKER_05 28:34

Do I agree that that's what your thinking was?

SPEAKER_03 28:38

That I was wanting you to build skills more than I wanted to change who you are fundamentally.

SPEAKER_05 28:43

Yes. I never felt like you wanted something for me that I didn't want for myself. And I didn't feel like you were asking me to compromise my values or to care about things that I don't care about. Um so I thought you were calling me into great versions of myself, slash like flex into like helping you because it was gonna help you. But it never felt like it was a critique of my character. You needed me to be like fundamentally different. I don't think I'm projecting much onto you. I feel like, I mean, listen, I'm in a good mood right now and I'm feeling a lot of love for you. So I'll describe it this way. I feel like when I watch you change, I feel delighted that I'm seeing you more fully expressed in whatever form you're supposed to be. If you're supposed to be a professional magician, I'm here for it. If you're supposed to be working the corporate job, I'm here for it. If you're supposed to have a hundred million friends and go flitting around the world and maybe we spend less time with each other this year, next year, whatever, I'm here for it. I like watching you be you and I think I'm pretty open-minded as to what you is. So I don't know, but maybe whatever talks me in two months and we haven't seen each other in a long time, and I'm like I miss her and I'm angry or whatever. Not sure. Do you feel like I love the real you, or do you feel like I love a production of you?

SPEAKER_03 30:01

I definitely think that you love the real me. And I know the experience of feeling like someone loves an image of me or like one version, and I do not feel that, and I feel super expressed and that you're curious about the parts of me that might take away time from you or be complicated to parse out or uh require tending to. Yeah. So I feel really accepted and seen in all those parts. And there will be more. There probably some that I don't even know about about myself, and many that I don't know about in you. I'm excited about all of that.

SPEAKER_05 30:31

Well, aren't we just the perfect couple, aren't we? Fabulous.

SPEAKER_03 30:35

Sweet.

SPEAKER_05 30:35

Thanks, Emily. So great, babe. I love doing this podcast episode with you. And we got to talk about how perfect we are in front of the world.

SPEAKER_03 30:42

We love our Toyota RAV 4. Doing like an ad read, but it didn't really land.

SPEAKER_05 30:48

If you were making more money than me over the course of our relationship, would you feel comfortable paying me spousal maintenance every month so I can maintain the lifestyle I had when we were together?

SPEAKER_03 30:59

Mm-hmm.

unknown 31:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:00

You would send me a check every month if we were not together anymore?

SPEAKER_03 31:03

If I was making significantly more money, yeah. Or I guess I would look at your whole financial situation and my whole financial situation. So I think there are more factors than just that. But I'm definitely happy to do that. I would like to love you and take care of you for the rest of your life and be loved and take taken care of by you for the rest of my life, and that can look many different ways. I think financial support is even if we're not together. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:27

I think that there's probably a lot of people out there who have a great prenup situation where they had one and they're married and it's amazing. And there's people who have a great prenup situation where they had one and they got divorced and it was amazing, slash as good as a divorce can be. And there's probably people who are out there and they had a prenup and it totally sucked and they felt really like that really damaged their post marriage life. And there's probably people who had one, or sorry, who didn't have one and they wish that they did. Like I just, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:55

Do you think that you want a prenup?

SPEAKER_05 31:57

I think I definitely want to have the conversation with you, with like um someone who knows what the law is in whatever state we get married in, because we're signing up for that prenup, for that agreement. You get married in California, you do the California marriage contract. You do you get married in New York, you get you do the New York marriage contract. So it'd be probably useful for us to both know what the rules are, but in terms of signing something that predetermines how we want to get divorced, I'm not necessarily in favor of signing it, but I also don't know it. So let's just let's do the convo and figure that out. I feel like some people out there might say, hey, Emily, Maxon, the prenup conversation is very unromantic and you're planning for the end at the beginning. What would you say to people who have that to say, Emily?

SPEAKER_03 32:39

I I just think that's responsible. Um and it's uh perhaps a bit burying your head in the sand to think that could never ever happen to me, given the statistics and just how people change. And it's not a personal failure failure, it's not something about you and your capability. It's just totally possible. So why not just be um comprehensive? You could still be romantic and also be comprehensive. What would you say?

SPEAKER_05 33:08

I would say listen dingle. Listen up, fuck face. Listen up, you clownfish. Rascal. Listen up, you little rascal. You're talking to two people who are making a podcast about if they should get legally married or not. We think that doing this is fun and cool and romantic. So if you don't get that, and you then you like will not understand. Like we think that planning for stuff and like talking it out ad nauseum is actually quite interesting and fun and beautiful and romantic and has been a really fun experience for us and has made us get closer. Are we afraid of like talking about the end of our relationship? No, we're definitely not.

SPEAKER_03 33:45

So heated type shit.

SPEAKER_05 33:47

I'm yeah, I'm on my heated type shit. I'm on my angry type shit. No, but seriously, we think that that's fine. And if that's the thing that like tears our relationship apart, talking about the end, we probably shouldn't be together in the first place. So do what that you will. Send us a note. If you did not like what I just said or what Emily just said, send us a note at swigumproject at gmail.com, SWGM project at gmail.com, and then we can talk about it. And we promise to be super nice. And if you want, we can get you on the show and we can like get into it. You can be the anti-prenup enthusiast that we've always been looking for. That would be sick.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:26

Emily, after this conversation with the Rob Shoeham, are you putting a pebble in the bucket of wanting to get married or a pebble in the bucket of wanting to not get married yet? Continue dating and loving each other.

SPEAKER_03 34:38

Hmm. I want to say both, but I know you're gonna be like snippety about that. That's right. I think this one put in not get married. That just sounded like a pretty messy, messy situation, and maybe like just money and assets creating contention, and I just left being like, Sheesh.

SPEAKER_05 35:03

Yeah, but what if you were the ex-partner? She got a whole boatload of money. Yeah. And that really, I think, probably buoyed her life in a really amazing way. It was really great for her. It was tougher for Rob. Would you not want to be in her position?

SPEAKER_03 35:17

I wouldn't want to be in like a contentious situation with you, I guess. Um Yeah, I don't, yeah, that's where I'm putting it. I don't I wouldn't say both, but you're not gonna let me do that. So I'm just gonna, for the sake of being interesting, gonna say that.

SPEAKER_05 35:29

Okay. Well, I appreciate you being interesting. I feel like some of your answer right now is informed by you are financially independent and have many sources of income and like are a professional magician and you do corporate comms, you do all this different stuff. You're like very financially independent. And I think you plan to continue being financially independent. So having that protection is maybe less important to you. Whereas if you were like, no, my dream is to be a stay-at-home mom and I don't want to build my career, you might be like, hey, I really need that protection. And that protection is really useful for so many people. I really believe that.

SPEAKER_02 36:04

Yeah. I might be a stay-at-home mom. I'd be happy with that. For a time.

SPEAKER_05 36:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:10

What's your pebble?

SPEAKER_05 36:13

I'm putting a pebble in the get married bucket. I've just been feeling very marriage heavy lately. Rabbi Ben, that was dope. Rob Shoeham, open to marriage again. With a prenup. Okay, fine, maybe sure. So, like, whatever. I just feel I'm just feeling romantic. I'm getting very swept up in the excitement of it all. And I also feel like we would get divorced nicely from each other. Like we I think that we'd be nice to each other even if it was like, you know, we weren't supposed to be together. But I bet every I bet a lot of people think that going into it. Yeah. So hard for us to know. Reference this back in a few years and we'll see sort of how things shake out.

SPEAKER_03 36:50

You say that a lot. You're like, check in with me on this two years from now.

SPEAKER_05 36:52

I literally I mean I'm just very aware that I'm being recorded making claims about our relationship that literally, you know, might be proven wrong, which I'm okay with because you know what I'm saying right now feels true to me now. True to me now, true to me now. True to me now, true to me now, it feels true to me now. Okay. Um, well, that was really fun. Thanks, Rob.

SPEAKER_03 37:12

And lastly, if you have been listening to the show and it has moved you in any way or made you think about something differently, or opened up a conversation with someone or people in your life, we would super, super love to hear from you. It doesn't have to be long. You can just fire off a quick email to us, or you can write us many, many pages or anything in your own.

SPEAKER_05 37:29

We wanna know. We wanna know.

SPEAKER_03 37:30

We wanna know. So write in to swingumproject at gmail.com. That's swgmproject at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_05 37:38

Hell yeah. Bye. Should we get married is an original series by Easily Wowed and Bad Cooley Productions. This episode was created by me, Max Intorecki.

SPEAKER_03 37:49

And me, Emily Carter.

SPEAKER_05 37:50

And our producer, Ramoy Phillip.

SPEAKER_03 37:52

Theme music is the song Fake Romantic by the band Melt, logo and brand design by Madeline Vogue.

SPEAKER_05 37:58

Sound design and mixing by Ramoy Phillip.

SPEAKER_03 38:01

There are so many of you out there who are asking these exact same questions, and we don't all have to investigate marriage on our own. Subscribe to Should We Get Married and learn with us as we make our decision.

SPEAKER_05 38:10

See you next time.