Routes and Roots
One Diaspora, Two Destinies.
Two continents. Two generations. Zero filters.
What happens when a Nigerian tech professional and a veteran Black American Principal trade perspectives? Routes and Roots explores the collision of the African immigrant hustle and the foundational U.S. experience.
From the innovation hubs of health tech to the front lines of education, we dissect the gap between the routes we’ve traveled and the roots that keep us standing. Whether it’s global politics, generational wealth, or the "hot takes" that usually stay in the group chat, we’re bringing the conversation to the mic.
Grab a seat. It’s time to bridge the gap.
Routes and Roots
The Mirror & The Wall: Unpacking Our Privilege
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In our most vulnerable conversation yet, we step away from our professional titles to look in the mirror. As a Nigerian MD/PhD and an African American Principal, we’re peeling back the layers of privilege and oppression that shape our lives in 2026. From the "Doctor's Shield" to the "Native Son's Roadmap," we debate whether our immigrant and Gen X lenses help us see each other’s struggles—or leave us blind to them. It’s a raw, 60-minute deep dive into the things we’re proud of, the things we’re embarrassed by, and the systemic walls we’re still trying to climb.
Hey Brandon.
SPEAKER_01Namdi, how are you?
SPEAKER_00I'm doing well. It's another Tuesday evening time for recording.
SPEAKER_01Yes, we are here.
SPEAKER_00Routes and Roots?
SPEAKER_01Routes and Roots episode five. Five. We have a handful of episodes.
SPEAKER_00Five golden rings.
SPEAKER_01Where did that come from? I don't know.
SPEAKER_00What's about that this mascaro? Five golden rings.
SPEAKER_01I do know about how it came up in March.
SPEAKER_00Listen, you asked five, you know. Imagine if you yeah, five. Five means it's no longer a hobby, it's real.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the energy is real today. You must have had a good day.
SPEAKER_00I had a good day. Yes, yes, I had a good day actually. It's been the last two weeks have been super busy. Um, I've not done anything fun except walk my butt my butts off and sing my my throat out. And then I think I finally hit a wall on Friday last week, and I remember just finishing work, having dinner at five, and I laid on my bed and did not get up from that bed till eight o'clock the next day. Wow. Saturday.
SPEAKER_01Very much unlike you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was like, no gym, no taking a long walk, no physical activity. But I think part of it was that I was also I over exerted myself that Friday, so I got this machine.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here we go.
SPEAKER_00Listen, I got this machine. Um, it's a steamer and a sterilizer, and you can clean tiles, wood, hardwood, porcelain, marble, like all surfaces, all surfaces without harsh chemicals. You understand? So I got it. I cleaned my sink, I cleaned my bathroom, I sterilized my bed. I did all sorts of videos. I said to my sister, um one of one of my sisters just to annoy her, and I was like, prepared to be sick of me. So I think I overdid it. That by the time I was done, I was like, Oh, but you know, that was your workout. That was my workout, and then um, but you know, I'm back to normal. Happy Palm Sunday to those celebrating. It was Palm Sunday this Sunday. The weather was a bit cold, but um, I enjoyed weaving my palm a book.
SPEAKER_01And when they're listening to this, it will be good Friday.
SPEAKER_00It will be good Friday, yes. When they listen to this, so yeah, so happy Good Friday to Christians and happy um Easter celebration coming up to Christians worldwide. How's the last two weeks been for you? What have you been up to?
SPEAKER_01Um recovering, so it seems like I was able to um kick the cold that I had before, have a slight cough still lingering, but uh hopefully that will uh go away, dissipate this week. Uh so looking forward to just being back to 100%. Yeah, sorry about that. Yeah, but I'm but I'm good. Um we have a break coming up tomorrow's the last day of school until April 13th. Why do you always have breaks? Uh listen, please, we deserve them.
SPEAKER_00I don't know. I just feel like I just feel like you've always had breaks. Yeah. How about you have like 10 breaks already this year?
SPEAKER_01New York City school system. We get everybody's holiday, whether it's Jewish holidays, Muslim holidays, Chinese holidays, Christian holidays. We celebrate and recognize everyone. That's the the thing about living in a large city though, like because you have so many different cultures here. So, you know, you have to recognize and celebrate everybody.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god, I'm just thinking about our topic today, and I'm thinking of one word privilege. Because I'm like, okay, now maybe it's a jealousy in me, so let me stop. Yeah, because I'm like, okay, we've had MLK Day, which you guys had. We've had President's Day, which you guys also had, and that's it. That's all.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's that's it for this year. I mean, we had a winter break where we were off for a week in February, which is that normally that standard week uh for uh President's Day, like that week we usually get off, and then we did have a um Eid um day off, a Friday off.
SPEAKER_00Don't you guys get spring break too?
SPEAKER_01That's what's coming up now. So, like Good Friday into Easter, like we're off for all of that.
SPEAKER_00And but I also vividly remember towards the end of the year last year, you guys had all sorts of Jewish holidays and all sorts of other that's uh generally in the fall.
SPEAKER_01Like what happens is we come back in September, and so it's like several holidays that take place in that September, October time frame. Uh, and so we usually get a lot of those those days off. That's when it's tricky though, because you're trying to find your stride at the beginning of a school year. And so honestly, I don't like those days off because it throws off the weeks. Yes, it's nice to have days off, but it's like a consistent reset for the students, uh, and especially elementary students, like to try to get them in that stride. But you know, again, a lot of privilege in that statement, too.
SPEAKER_00Okay, okay. I can I can imagine. Um, well, well, I mean, I know a lot of your our listeners are teachers. So listen, I'm not anti-teacher, I'm not anti-education. I love you all. Shout out to all those who listen. I know you guys who listen, I won't mention names. Please enjoy your breaks, enjoy your vacation time. People are people like us that have sold our souls to corporate America will walk to death, but you know, that's what what that is. What are you? Any plans for Easter?
SPEAKER_01Um, yes, I'm going to North Carolina, so going home.
SPEAKER_00I hear it's like in the 80s now.
SPEAKER_01No, I'm gonna love it. You know, even though this weather is nice here, like today in particular, it was like 77 degrees.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01So a very nice day in New York today.
SPEAKER_00Okay, all right, that's cool. So we are celebrating a lot of firsts in our podcast in this episode, and as you know, you guys, I don't hope you know that what Brandon does twiddles is Tom shows up for the podcast records and goes away. Really no, all the pre and post-production I have to figure out. So a lot of this now he's just hearing, but we had a lot of firsts, Brandon.
SPEAKER_01Brandon is also working on a doctoral degree.
SPEAKER_00On a what?
SPEAKER_01A doctoral degree.
SPEAKER_00So what does what does that mean?
SPEAKER_01I'm busy.
SPEAKER_00Okay, I'm sorry. Okay, so I'm jobless. But do you know what the first are? I'll give you one and then I'll tell you one the later on in the recording.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00So the first one is that we got a fan mail.
SPEAKER_01We got a fan mail, we got a fan mail. Wow, let's look at the listeners.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and the second one is that we also um got a suggestion for a topic. Nice, and that was really good. So somebody had commented on Apple Podcasts. I think a few people gave us five-star rating. So thank you to those who did. Please, others who listen. I think we only had like 27 listeners to the last episode. Guys, AI is taking over everywhere. You should listen to us when we speak and just go listen. I I mean, not to be the prophet of doom, but this today, 30,000 jobs lost in Oracle a week ago, Meta announced you know they were letting go of 18% of their workforce, which is like 30,000 people. So, you might want to go back and listen to that episode and just think about some of the things we said from the perspective of Brandon and I. Um, so I would really encourage you, even if not for anything, for educational purposes, to go back. But for the few of you who listen, and for those of you who give us a five-star rating, thank you. And then for the one person who actually gave us a topic suggestion, because last episode we asked for topic suggestions. Yes, and they gave us. And do you know what we're talking about today?
SPEAKER_01What are we talking about?
SPEAKER_00We're talking about the mirror and the wall, unpacking our privileges. Wow, that's the topic. That's the topic. Um and the wall. Yes. So we're looking up in the mirror and we are back against the wall, and we're unpacking our privileges and our oppressions as we navigate through life. Um, with the differences that we both present, age-wise, immigration-wise, and career-wise as well. Um, and uh let me say this is not a shade your partner episode. So please do not shade me, and I won't shade you. Let's keep this nice and polite and you know good.
SPEAKER_01But um the person that anticipates the most shade always has the disclaimer.
SPEAKER_00No, no, no, no, no. Guys, you don't know how shady this man is. So I'm just telling you. Oh me, of course. Never. This is not a shade your your your podcast partner episode. This is a you know, let's keep it real, let's keep it open, and all of that. So I'm gonna start and with this sentence.
SPEAKER_01So is there a safe word if you feel like I'm being too shady? No, there's no safe for coming out of it. Okay, I know. Like, should I come out of it?
SPEAKER_00I'm not a snowflake, it's okay. The people will just hate you and like me. That's it. And when the endorsements come, they will say, Can we endorse Nambi and not branded? So that's just what it's coming to.
SPEAKER_01God bless you. See, the privilege starts already. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00So never have you felt so protected when give me a place where your privilege has made you feel really protected.
SPEAKER_01That's a hard one. Like being an African-American man, because you focus on like the discrimination.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but okay, so let me give you my own. Yeah, maybe that one now you're talking about. So, guys, I've been in this country for 13 years, and three times I have been stopped by the police, and all three times there was a good reason to stop me. Either the tags were expired, the headlight was off, or I made a wrong turn where I shouldn't make a wrong turn. And I think you know, police problems with race in this country is a real thing, and this is not to minimize it, but I think that um I have had relatively positive experiences with them, and the privilege in this case that has helped me has been my accent. I think there's something about saying, Ah, officer, good evening. I'm so sorry, I don't know what's happening. I just came here yesterday.
SPEAKER_01I don't know if that will work nowadays.
SPEAKER_00Obviously, and each time you can see the white cop just looking at me and trying to make sense of what is going on here. By the time you realize that okay, this person is fresh off the boat and is clueless and all of that, has actually gone out of their way to actually help me. So one has actually, you know, escorted me back to my hostel when I was a student, and the other one has said, Oh, make sure your lights are on, and all of that stuff. So I think in those moments I felt very protected and privileged. So that's that's an example, you know.
SPEAKER_01So I think that it's because the accent is not really Nigerian, it's more British.
SPEAKER_00No, it's Nigerian, excuse you.
SPEAKER_01Say say officer again.
SPEAKER_00Officer.
SPEAKER_01That's very British.
SPEAKER_00No, that's not British. We were colonized by the British. We were colonized by the British, so there might be some affectation, but my accent is authentically Igbo-Nigerian. Thank you and God bless.
SPEAKER_01So, and this is not shade before you try to accuse me. It's okay, yeah. If you were speaking to a Nigerian officer, how would it sound?
SPEAKER_00I would speak most likely in broken English, but that's just because of the environment.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, for the environment.
SPEAKER_00I would say, ah, officer, how far now? We did the apple and why you stopped me, and and you would say what he wanted to say, and then he would say, Oh, find me something, and I'll say, Ah, I don't get to, I don't get money, or you know, my Nigerians understand what I'm saying, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so that would be a different kind. So it's not the same.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, not the same comparison.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, so not in that context, but um, because the police being a black man in America, the police still scare me. So it would never be a situation where I was pulled over or had to engage with the police where I would say that like I felt protected or safe.
SPEAKER_00You're protected doesn't have to be a police example. Give me something else.
SPEAKER_01No, that's what I'm saying. I'm just giving an example that would probably never um work for me. Right. As well. So I think for me, probably like when I'm with my friend, like when I go back to North Carolina and I'm with my friends that like I grew up with or that you know I went to college with like um last year was my um Lions 30th anniversary. Okay. Um for my I was gonna make this sound, but I told myself that would get done.
SPEAKER_00Do not do it. That will get me cancelled. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Do not you are not a member of Omega Sci-Fi. Shout out to the bros. You cannot do that. Okay. So I think when when I'm there and I'm around them, like I feel like I'm not concerned or thinking about uh not just being safe, but just like things that I might think about, even being here in in New York, in Brooklyn, you know, having navigated New York City by myself for so many years, for 21 years now I've been here uh from the south. So I think that when I'm around them, when I'm like I feel at home, I feel safe and like I'm good, I'm protected. Like I know my boys got me. Like, even if we're like hanging out, having a drink or whatever. So I think like that for me when I'm around them.
SPEAKER_00Okay, shout out to the bros.
SPEAKER_01So the bros, yeah. And then of course my family too. Like when I'm around my family. Like, but a family is a little different, like around my brother, yes, because he's my older brother, so he's always got me, he's always protected me, like my entire life, because I'm his little brother. But like, I have a lot of female cousins, so usually when I'm with them or traveling with them, then like I'm the protector or making sure they're good. Yeah, um, but I still feel safe with them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so what I'm hearing you say is what feeds into this particular privilege that you feel protected in is being in the presence of long-lasting, lifelong childhood friends, family, and all of that, and then just knowing that okay, you're in a place where you can let your hair down. That's very relatable because I also think that when I'm back home in Nigeria, I I also definitely feel that sense of invincibility and protection because I'm also around my people. So that's really good. I think for me, uh, what I identified is because of the accent, I'm able to feign a certain type of ignorance that almost allows the officer to feel like there's no point trying to exercise power over me because I'm already I'm already weak. So allow me go and give me my warning and let me be on my way. So I think if there was a world where I had an American accent, then I think there might be a higher threat level for whatever reason. You know, we can talk about those reasons, and maybe then that protection is taken away from me, and then that privilege that I have experienced would be there. So I wonder what other things do you think inform this privilege you just talked about for you? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think part of it, like, okay, accent one, like you're saying, you're not from here. So you don't have that same thing ingrained in you of saying like this is how officers treat African Americans in this country, right? Like you didn't grow up with that.
SPEAKER_00So you're saying I'm approaching it without the trauma of the without the trauma of it, right?
SPEAKER_01So nothing about your approach to it when he comes up and greets you, because usually the first thing they say, do you know why I pulled you? Yeah. Right? Um, and even if I know, my response might be a little combative. No. Like, you know, like that. Why did you pull me up? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What are you because I'm thinking like, if especially if I didn't do anything, like, why are you pulling me up? So, no, I don't know. Like, you tell me, you pull me over. So the response might be a little more combative, whereas you're approaching it as, you know, um, yeah, you might say yes if you do know, like, yeah, I'm I made a road and turn, you know, that type of thing, or if you don't know, and you say, you know, no, I'm sorry, officer. You know, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So in one of them I made a wrong tongue, and in one of them my headlights were off. So I think I knew why they pulled me up. But let's talk about, let's go into detail with the third uh one because maybe you can open my eyes to certain things. So where I may have felt privileged and protected, there might be other dynamics going on. I might be good to unpack it for our listeners, right? So it's 4 a.m. in the morning. I'm driving a fairly new SUV, so it's not an old Raggedy SUV. I think it was two years old at that time. Very low miles, very bright and shiny. It's still low miles, listen, that's privileged. But whatever. We talked about no shade. Um, and so it's 4 a.m. in the morning. I'm driving to go pick up my friend at the airport because he's landing like six in the morning, right? And I was living two hours away from the airport at that point. I wasn't over speeding, my headlights were on, nothing, nothing was off, and he stopped me. And I don't know if he ran my tags and stopped it, which is almost impossible.
SPEAKER_01Was he behind you or he pulled out?
SPEAKER_00No, he just pulled out your stand. So almost like the way you pull out if you are holding a speed gun and measuring people, you stand. So this was more so no, he just saw me drive and then just pulled and stopped me and then ran my tags, you know, and then came and said XY. So walk me if that were you where he may have pulled you because you're a black man at four in the morning driving and then run your tax to get a vision. How may you how would you have handled such a that would have not been a privilege in the way I felt it was a privilege for me?
SPEAKER_01Right. Well, that's the first thing. Well, number one, you are a black man too. So my first thought was that maybe he pulled you because you were black, right? Like that's what we're led to believe in this country. It's 4 a.m. You're driving a nice vehicle, he saw, because if you passed him his lights on, like he saw who you were. Because the windows are not tenant where he couldn't see who you were. So he now pulls you. How does he know at that point, like the tags, like had if there was some something going on with the tags with the car, or whatever the case may be, um, he wouldn't have. So I'm led to believe he could have possibly pulled you because he sees a black man driving a nice car early in the morning. Where are you going? Yeah. Now, could be totally wrong, right? Okay, like we understand that, like, all officers aren't like that. So I want to shout out to the police officer. We need police officers in this country, right? Uh, so I'm not saying that, but it's just that feeling of like, why are you pulling me?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I and I guess it's also me being cognizant of that privilege and knowing that it's something that can be for good or for before. And I and I will speak to you later on as to where the same thing I've talked about I felt has been a disadvantage for me. Um, but before we leave this point, let's flip it on you and say, okay, even in your I felt most privileged and most protected when I'm around family and friends and childhood and that are there have there been times where you've you've you are because of that, you are almost like putting an undue expectation and burden on family and friends to always be there, and have they fallen short of that expectation at any time? And did that cause you to check a reality check on maybe it's not really a privilege I thought I had and it's going or is still there? And if none, that's fine. I'm just trying to see is it always something you can bank on, and is that the privilege that is bulletproof?
SPEAKER_01Um, I would say most of the time, as long as there are not outside influences. Like if we're just hanging out and we're more so in a private setting, like obviously, if you're at a larger event, you don't have control over things that might happen. Um, I'm a natural protector uh of all my friends. Um, and usually I'm the one that can like get us into something or get us some type of privilege when we are already in something. So I more so have the gift of gab that will support us in getting some type of privilege as well. And it doesn't hurt that I'm tall and handsome.
SPEAKER_00And that brings us to chapter two, where we're going to put the mirror, and so in this place, we're going to say, I'm gonna speak to where I have seen or observed your privilege in action, and then you're going to also do the same. Oh my god. Yes that's so and to be fair called out. No, and to be fair, the one the one I was going to mention is your handsome or pretty privilege. So, guys, you can go look him up. You know, you have his government name and you can search him, whatever. But but um I I've I've I've I've always found it very interesting how you show up to a place and people just oh, okay, and what they said they can't do, they just quickly do it, you know. Or um, and and and maybe it's not just the pretty privilege, but it's also the assertive privilege. So I don't know if you guys know, but like when I need to talk to customer service, I wait until I can hang out with Brandon, and then that's when I make my customer service calls because. I just realized that it's easier for me to get away with things. So, like, if I need my flight change, if I need them to reimburse me for something, when I speak, people are like, you know, get the hell out of here, and then we're not doing anything with you. But when Brandon's the one who calls, somehow they're able to say, Oh, we'll make an exception this time and figure it out for you. So I've just learned to observe, appreciate, not hate that privilege, and in fact, use it to my advantage. Where whenever there's oh, I need to speak to customer service or something, I just wait until I catch Brandon over the weekend or in a week's time, or whenever I get to see him and have all my customer service issues addressed.
SPEAKER_01So that's I think is my start charging for my services. Whatever. But that's like my biggest one.
SPEAKER_00Yes, that what of you for me? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, I think for you, like definitely uh when we've traveled like to Nigeria, like seeing like you and your element, because the same way you speak of me and mine, like I'm born and raised here, this is my country. So I feel you know, I feel like I know how to navigate different situations uh to get what I want, just the same way you would in Nigeria. So I think that has a lot to do with it. Like you're learning and understanding American culture, black American culture. So in those situations, it's not where you feel like you can exercise, you know, your strongest. But in other situations, I've seen it with you where the you speak of it in the sense of like being pulled by the police, but I've seen it in the sense of where you speak and people are intrigued by your accent, and so then they will make shifts and adjust to that and say, like, oh, let us do that for him. Yeah. Um, but I think it's for you too, like you always try to show up like um not showing what you know your wealth might be, or show up in a couple of things. Guys, he's saying I'm humble. Mark that somewhere. It's true, because you're like, nope, I'm just gonna throw on this this hoodie, and sure it's a hoodie. We're going to look for a car, and I'm like, okay, they're gonna treat us differently when we get into this dealership. Uh, because they're gonna say, like, where are they going? They ain't got no money, what they buy in, uh, the credit score might be mad, like whatever the case may be.
SPEAKER_00I can imagine. And we saw that happen, right? Right.
SPEAKER_01And you don't even think about it. Like, those are things I think about being raised in this country where you don't even think about that because you like understand who you are and what you have, um, as well as but in Nigeria, like they're gonna know, like, they're gonna know who you are, they're gonna know like you probably live abroad, like, so you're going to get a certain level of respect that you wouldn't just naturally get here unless you showed your wealth or who you were in some kind of way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I I want to read something to you, and I want you to react to it, right? So I think, observing you for the number of years we've been friends, that you have what I call institutional understanding of this country and your workspace, the education sector. So you know how the American machine works from inside out, um, and you don't have to, like, unlike me, constantly question am I doing this the right way? Which comes with its own anxiety even after being here for almost 13 years. Speak to do you do do you observing me struggle in certain instances make you appreciate some of the privileges you have being more native in this country and older as well?
SPEAKER_01I don't know if it necessarily makes me appreciate because in those moments I want to help you navigate whatever that situation might be might be. So I want like full context because I also know what corporate America is, because I've worked in corporate America too, not just educational.
SPEAKER_00Not even corporate America, but just in the in the way we navigate things, and you see me in situations where someone is speaking to me in a certain type of way, or they are trying to, for example, like when we went to get my car last year, yes, and the man refused me to pay a certain amount of money as a down payment, and there was all this. So in that moment, what are you because obviously I was oblivious to why he was pushing back and you got it immediately. But how how do you think of it? And then does that make you just appreciate, oh my god, it must be hard if he's had to struggle like this in every facet of the American life?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because then I feel like somebody is gonna try to get over on you and you're just gonna pay it because you don't know like you can push back on it, or there's another way. So I understood what he's saying. Like, so a car dealership is trying to get you to finance because they're in cahoots with the banks or the finance companies, right?
SPEAKER_00And I come from a country where you buy your things.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so that the whole even buying the house, like you would rather pay the house off tomorrow. Like, like that's not how it works. Please don't say that in public. Well, I'm just saying, okay. Uh, and so you could have paid cash that day for the car, but the whole thing was you were trying to get points on your platinum American Express car.
SPEAKER_00Which in itself is privileged.
SPEAKER_01Which in itself is privileged. And so, um, and to be honest, we had saw how that worked when I purchased my car because I was able to use mine, right? So you knew that it could happen, but different dealerships work different. So we didn't know if they were just telling us that, you know, because they were trying to get you to finance and then get paid on the back end, because now, you know, you finance this large amount of money for this car with them. So I think it was more about I'm gonna step in at that point to say, like, trust me, we know what we're talking about. Yeah, like you're not gonna be able to.
SPEAKER_00Because I was getting agitated already. Yeah, yeah. Okay, that that that makes a lot of um sense, and I think inversely, I also have to acknowledge where my privileges show up, and so I can I can give an example where sometimes I wonder, oh, you're supposed to live on 40 to 50% of what you make and save the rest, right? And even just saying that aloud to certain people, especially in the kind of economic situation we live in today, is privilege, right? Because there are people who are paycheck to paycheck. So, what do you mean live on 40% of what you make? Or even the even and even in for people who make as much as I do, the idea that I'm like, oh no, I don't take vacations, and no, I don't need to have a brand new stuff every week, and oh no, I don't need to go to Michelin Star restaurant and I go. So there's discipline, and they discipline but even that discipline is privilege because it comes from coming from you know a relatively poorer country and how things were done that then coming to this credit-driven system and but being able to insulate myself from it and not buy into credit is king, credit is good, and discipline myself. And so when I'm like, why doesn't he get it? And why can't he just do it like me? I have to understand that that's privilege showing up.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. And I mean, you have to adapt to the country that you're in, you know. Obviously, you know, um when you're purchasing a home, you're gonna finance that it's not too many people that just pay cash, uh, unless you're extremely wealthy, or you know, like some people that come to New York, they do like the purchase thing, it's like a shelter for them.
SPEAKER_00Shout out to the Jews and Russians.
SPEAKER_01True, like that's who and and the Chinese too.
SPEAKER_00And the Chinese, yeah. Crazy issues.
SPEAKER_01Like are paying cash for these properties and stuff. So, but the normal way, when you're here, you're working in this country, you're you know, um, you get to a place where you can purchase a home, you gotta have a certain amount for a down payment, that type of thing. So you're going to have debt, right? And then we say good debt, like right, like owning a home is good debt because it's yours, and the goal is to work and pay it off, you know, or figure out a way you can pay that off less than 30 years. Yeah. As well. Okay. So I think it's, you know.
SPEAKER_00It's a good day. So let's end the privilege section uh with one quick uh round. A privilege that when you look back on, you were embarrassed by. So I'll tell you mine. So the year was 2023, and uh, I was trying to close on my house, and I remember just telling uh your partner that, oh, why have they said yes to me and all of that? And why do they need 30 days to wait? And eventually it happened. And I remember her just saying to me, Oh my god, it happened. I'm like, of course it's supposed to. And now that I've you know three ends down the line, I've I've realized more that oh no, that there are many reasons why a house won't close and it takes months and weeks, and sometimes there are stipulations that are written in, and the idea that you just can buy a house with no steeps and it closes in a matter of 30 days is almost unheard of. So I think there might be there's also an oblivion, obliviousness to what the reality is, but in itself, when I look back, I'm embarrassed by that level of privilege that I had. So do you remember that incident?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they came to the house you were purchasing to sign, to close with no attorneys, whatever, like all that had already been done and notarized, and they came and everything took place on the kitchen counter in less than an hour.
SPEAKER_00And in my mind, that was normal.
SPEAKER_01It was 30 minutes, like yeah, like 30 minutes, and then you had the keys. Yeah, like that's not. And in my mind, that was normal. No. So that is one you should be embarrassed of that. You thought that was like the normal way to do it. No, not at all. Definitely. What have you? Um gosh. I'm like, I don't know if it's one that I'm embarrassed of.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I remember one more. Do you remember the one of the first few times when I met you and your family, and then we were walking down, and I said, Oh, at some point we should stop somewhere and buy watermelon. I will pass the bodega in Brooklyn. Guys, Brandon turned around and said, Oh, let's buy the watermelon. Jesus!
SPEAKER_01You can't even get the story, yeah. And I said to him, No, I turned watermelon for genetic watermelon.
SPEAKER_00Of whole foods. Of whole food. And you could see Brandon turned red. Like, this is the black man, he turned red. His voice became anger-filled, and he said to me, I wasn't angry, I was just like, We're living on the streets of Brooklyn.
SPEAKER_01First of all, where's Whole Foods? Worst organic watermelon. Eat the street watermelon, it's okay.
SPEAKER_00You were invitable. That's like, oh shit. So at least those are two, you know. It's just that I remember, yeah. Yeah, but but listen, I will still not eat watermelon from the bodega, just so you guys know. But the fact that you got angry about it is actually why I felt embarrassed, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I don't think um like I think yours is different, like not being from here. Like mine, like it happens probably so often with certain things to I don't really acknowledge it like that. So I don't know if it's something that like I've been necessarily embarrassed of, but maybe like something I don't think about. Like when I go grocery shopping, I don't look at prices.
SPEAKER_00That is privilege. That's privilege, right?
SPEAKER_01Like, so but in fairness to me, I buy the same thing from Trader Joe's at Whole Foods each time I go. Yeah, but think I'm not thinking about it.
SPEAKER_00But there's inflation going on. So the fact that you still don't think about prices.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't really like notice that my grocery bill went up.
SPEAKER_00Okay, come true, principal salary.
SPEAKER_01Here we go. Now who's being the shady?
SPEAKER_00It's not shady. We have a fucking.
SPEAKER_01It's something I don't think about. Because you gotta eat.
SPEAKER_00We have to eat, yeah, yeah, exactly. You gotta eat, you gotta eat. Okay, so we switch up, and now the two sides of the same coin: privilege and then oppression, right? So let's let's talk about that and and how you observe oppression in your life, someone who is a Gen Xer, someone who is black in this country, someone who is in the education system. So it doesn't it may not be you, but where do you see oppression in the day-to-day work that you do?
SPEAKER_01Um, like obviously I'm in education, so it's it's very clear, right? Um, and that's why I'm someone that wants to focus on the trauma that these students have experienced, even at such a young age, versus policing them. And that doesn't mean they don't they don't have to have consequences because they do things that definitely are deserving of consequences, but how do we support them in the situations and backgrounds that they come from? Um, acknowledging the trauma that they've experienced and getting them support and help for that trauma as well. So you hear like some very interesting and quite honestly wild stories of like something a child has been through or experienced or happened at home or situations, and you're just like, wow, like this kid is carrying all of that, and I'm trying to get him to multiply. You know, I'm trying to get teach him to read, you know, um, even in that situation. So I think that's where it shows up somewhere. Others, you know, kids have um, you know, they come from a it doesn't mean like they didn't have experience some type of hardships in their home, but they just come from homes that are not as broken, you know? And so the thought would be it's a little bit easier for that child to learn because they're not carrying that same amount of trauma as some of the children that I encounter at my school.
SPEAKER_00That that's profound. I think I think for me, just like you struggle to find embarrassing moments of privilege, I struggle to find moments of oppression, but I think that in itself is privilege because I think there is a resilience that you wear as an armor of steel being an immigrant, so that even when things that are clearly oppressions show up, you don't see them as that, you see them as natural challenges that one faces, you know. So it's only in the last few years I've begun to reflect and think about certain wild and maybe not so wild things that have happened to me, and I'm wondering, hmm, in hindsight, that that was some type of oppression, but um I I made light of it, or I just found a way to navigate. So, for example, there's absolutely no reason I should need you to make calls for me for people to take me seriously. But for the same reason where I think my accent got me away from the police, I think my accent also creates certain assumptions about me with people, especially over the phone, where they think I'm slow, I don't, I can't, I don't understand things and and all of that. And so but rather than see it as oppression, I've just seen it as oh, I'll just ask Brandon to help me when when when I'm when I'm doing that.
SPEAKER_01Because you have an out, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, but my point is even even the ability to think in that way is privileged, right? Because there's a world where even if you are there to help me, I will still be angry that oh, why why do I need him to be able to help me change a flight or to talk to the insurance or to talk to my brokers and all of that? So I think that that is um that is one. And then I'll tell you a story. So I remember the first year of my doctoral program, we had written an essay, and I got the highest score on that essay. And I remember one of the one of my classmates, I won't call his name, but he was male and white, said to me half-heartedly, half laughing, half serious, oh um Nandi, the only reason you got the best score in this essay is because you are graded on a cove because you are from Nigeria and English is your second language. Wow. So in my mind, in that moment, I didn't think, in fact, two weeks later, we all had a dinner in my house, and I hosted everybody, and it was there, and we all ate Nigerian food and everything. So, to tell you that I didn't even think of it in that way. But now, almost 10 years since or more than 10 years since that happened, I reflect back and I say, Why was it easy for him to just say that to me directly? And was this some measure of oppression that was there that I just failed to see? And now being immersed in the American culture for long enough and beginning to observe certain machinations of America and see how some of these oppressions show up and rear its ugly head. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Whereas for me, I would have had an immediate reaction to that, an immediate response because I know how they think in this country. And they already view you as unintelligent or less than, and especially in the education sector.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And then the other thing I find interesting is how there are different types of oppressions. There are academics that call, and then sometimes you experience one, and sometimes you might experience it in a way academics call intersectional. So for example, I am black and I'm immigrant, so there are two levels of discrimination or oppressions I might face, right? You know, and then she's she's okay. So is there some intersectionality going on there? But the other thing I've observed is that in some cases, these types of oppressions are blind to one another. I think it was Chima Manda in Gausea DJ, the famous writer that said America, the author of America that said there are different levels of oppression and they could be sometimes blind to another one another, where the black man in the workplace will understand what it needs to be passed over because he's black, but cannot empathize with the trials that women go through being sexually harassed in the workplace. Yes. So they are both you know experiencing different types of oppression, but they seem to be blind to one another. I don't know if you have opinions about what those levels and how sometimes we don't see how they crisscross.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Um, I will say what happened for me is I created my own bubble against it. Um because everybody that I work and function with are black, are predominantly black, right? Uh or even if Was that by choice? Yes. Or happenstance. No, I wanted it. Okay. That's privilege. It was a privilege to that. Like after being in education for a while, I knew like that's what I needed to feel safe and to feel like I can be my full self in the career that I've chosen. Um, so even when um I am having to deal with others, I'm in I'm I have the power dynamic. Right? And so I've created that too. So I think that it's like your own bubble that protects you from some of that because you've dealt with it. Because I've dealt with it so long in this country that like I would rather not deal with it when I didn't have to, or have to feel like I was being treated a certain way or responded to a certain way because I'm black.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so that so then as a principal, are you then akin to potential discrimination that other races non-black might face or younger people might face, or people who are not as highly educated as you might face? Because just are all that levels of oppression that people are observing that don't pertain to you as a black educated man in education.
SPEAKER_01I think I'm reminded of it when I have to deal with my parents because I'm dealing with so many different dynamics. Got it, got it. Um, majority of my parents don't work. And so you're dealing with parents that are on the system in some kind of way. Um, and so I struggle to relate to them when they can't show up to a parent teacher conference or have more involvement in their child's education, not understanding like I'm coming from a place of privilege of like thinking that's what you're supposed to do. Whereas they might be thinking I didn't have, or they probably didn't have the best experience in their schooling. Yeah. Right? They didn't, you know, want to return to that because there's some type of trauma or pain there. And I've had a few parents say that like I didn't have the best experience in school, and so I try to stay away, and they've admitted like I chose the school because it has a black man for a principal for my child. So, like, at least that like fix my child.
SPEAKER_00And and role modeling, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And role modeling, like that's your job. Like, if I had the answers, don't you think I would do it? Like That's literally how they look at me. And then the families that do work, they're like, I don't have the time. Because it's the commute. It's the getting, like, New York City is not easy, right? As we had the siren. As we hear the siren. And I'm not as understanding of that because I park in a garage. I have a private parking space at work. Like, so I only go to stores that have a parking lot. So like I've removed myself from that. I haven't been on the train since COVID. So like I've removed myself from the transportation issues in the city per se. And so it's hard for me to empathize with that. Like they're catching a train to catch a bus to get their child to school. And now I'm asking them to come back in for this meeting. Like it is a lot.
SPEAKER_00No, it is a lot. But I think beyond empathizing, I think there's also a balance of holding space for responsibility. Because then there's a thin line you can cross over where because you're trying to be very empathetic, you create stereotypes. Where now because certain people present a certain way, you expect a lot or very little from them, which in itself creates some type of bias and stereotype that just unintentionally makes whatever oppression you are observing even worse down the line. So I think there's a room for, yeah, I see it, I observe it, I empathize, I give allowances, but I still create space for accountability because at the end of the day, we are not trying to create this stereotype that says, Oh, people who are like this do this, and people are like this do that, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, and how that affects the child.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so to our second first, we have a fan mail, and guys, if you go to our episode, there is now a reach us on uh send an email fan mail link, and then if you can either send it as a uh email or send it as a text message, you can also send it as a voice note. So this person actually sent it as a voice note, and oh wow, yeah, but in the voice note had asked that we don't play the voice notes because uh unless we change the voice, which we can also do, but the good news is that when you send a voice note, it comes as a transcript, so we can we can read the transcript and all, and that's what I'm going to read now. So are you ready?
SPEAKER_01What country?
SPEAKER_00It's coming from Nigeria. Shout out to shout out to Nigeria and people who support. Okay, so dear B and N. Why not N and why not N and B?
SPEAKER_01Brandon is always first. What okay?
SPEAKER_00Just in after you it's okay, it's okay. This is this is already off to a horrible start.
SPEAKER_01The years before end.
SPEAKER_00Okay, okay. First off, thank you for this platform. I have been a loyal listener since the launch and truly value the perspective you guys both provide. I'm reaching out for some real talk. He put it in um yeah, and and I'm assuming it's a he, but we'll figure out that later. They put it in a quotation. Real talk on a major life pivot. I am considering. I am a 35-year-old single senior-level professional working for a multinational company in Nigeria. Currently, I am in a reasonably high-end bracket, and they put about three to four million naira. Um, yeah, okay. For America context, that is about three thousand dollars. But then remember Nigeria is has a cheaper standard of living, so that's about three thousand dollars monthly, which affords a very comfortable life here. However, I have started exploring a relocation to the United States to transition into pharma or health tech space there. I would love you guys' take on the optics of this move from an immigrant perspective. Um, the privileges, are there specific advantages to entering the US market now? Um, as an experienced professional coming from a global multinational, and then the reality check beyond the obvious logistics, what are the overlooked cultural and professional challenges I may face? Essentially, I'm trading royalty status in my country for a reset in the United States. I would love to hear your thoughts on the balance between my decision, comfort, and global opportunity. Thanks, guys.
SPEAKER_01Wow, uh, very interesting. I think that last part.
SPEAKER_00Um, read the second to the last sentence when you say I'm trading essentially, I am trading royalty in quotation marks, status in my country for a reset in the US.
SPEAKER_01I would like to that's the key statement, right? Okay, understanding that it is going to be different here than it is there. Okay. Now you can speak to that some. I think it's a little different because you came here for your education. So you came here as a student. Yeah, and what you are doing. Whereas this person would be coming as a professional. Yeah. So that looks and feels a little different. Like, do you have the resources to come with a soft landing? Like, where are you going to live? Do you have some money saved, you know, just to make sure whatever might happen that you're still going to be good in this country? What is going to be your visa status when you come? Like, all of those things to me is what I would think about and consider. And then we can go more into the cultural thing.
SPEAKER_00So I think you can speak more to that because you've experienced and I'll speak to it through the lens of things I would do differently if I were to redo again, right? So this person didn't say, I mean, they earned a significant amount of money in Nigeria, but I don't know their lifestyle in Nigeria and how much they have in savings. And this person also didn't say they already have a job in hand, so it means like they might be immigrating to find a job later. But regardless, I think the first thing I would say things to do differently if I were to do this again, save, save, save while you're in Nigeria. Make sure you're saving as much money as you can because to Brandon's point, that's going to give you a lot of leverage and soft landing when you're here. There's a world where you save so much that you come here and you're able to put a five percent, ten percent down payment and own and start paying down a mortgage than renting for a couple of years before you own it. But again, it all depends on how much you've saved. And if you're coming here with a job in hand, I would encourage you to figure that out. If there's a job in hand, you most likely will have a sign-on bonus. So definitely you want to get into the market sooner than later, than trying to pay rent and then figure that out. That's one.
SPEAKER_01Number two housing, sorry to cut you off. Housing is gonna be the most important. Like, if you have someone you can stay with for at least a short period of time, like that's gonna be a huge benefit. But if you're immediately having to pay rent or mortgage, like then immediately your money your funds start to dwindle.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, but but I'm saying again, I don't know if this enhanced family and all of that. So the logistics of picking up yourself and your family to stay in someone's house for more than a few weeks is logistically almost impossible. So I think whether you have you know, you hopefully the person has a good safety net to land on for a few couple of weeks and all, but I'm saying ultimately by the time you are settling in, you want to settle in some type of mortgaging than renting if possible. That's one thing I'll do differently. I think the second thing I'll do um is if I don't have any American degree, I will try within the first two, three years to enroll in trying to get an American degree. Because I think sometimes converting with a Nigerian degree just in my own experience is a bit difficult, and a lot of recruiters and hiring folks want to see that you have sort of embedded and integrated into the American way of doing things and nothing screams that like getting a degree from an American school. The third thing I'm going to say is credits. So, uh guys, I didn't join the credit system for the first three, four years of my stay in America, which was absolutely horrendous. So make sure you get a credit card as soon as possible, and that you start to build that credit because ultimately it will open a lot of doors for you to do things that you can do. And then I'll say maybe the last I could I could go on and on, but I'll say the last one is learn a lot of life hacking skills, learn how to fix your own things, change bulbs, you know, be good with your hands, assemble furniture, clean your house, wash your bathrooms, make your meals. Because I know Nigeria is a very service-driven um society where labor is super cheap and you can have people do these things for you, but you have to learn how to do them yourself because I mean you can pay for them here, but they will cost you a lot of money. So being able to learn how to do things. So the other day I had a defect on my hardwood, and I was already thinking about going to get a flooring company to come look at it, and that would just the consultation would be almost$200. So in my mind, I was like, okay, I need to figure it out. And I was happy that you know, with Brandon's help, we're able to find a a cheap$20 tool that we could buy from Amazon, and in 10 10 minutes, I had fixed the flaws by myself. So who knew I had carpentry skills in me? But that's what America would do. But I think those are the things that will make life easier for this person coming over.
SPEAKER_01Well, and then culturally, yeah, and so I'll speak to cultural because I think it was a thing for you. Like generally, what happens though with uh Africans, Nigerians, like Africans in general, you find your own people, and so you kind of stay in that space in that bubble where you're only hanging out with Nigerians, speaking with Nigerians, so you don't become immersed in the black culture here in America, just from even the standpoint of let me understand what they've been through so that there can be some type of discussion like we're even having now, right? Because that doesn't happen a lot. It's this huge divide. Um, whereas you all, you know, because of I think you all think of you're not thinking of it as race, right? You're thinking of it as class.
SPEAKER_00Yes, which is a huge thing back home.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that's you come from, you know, a society that deals with each other because everybody's black, so we're dealing with each other versus on class. Like, you know, what is your class? Yeah. So when you come to America, I think you assimilate more to the whites based on a class thing, not necessarily a race thing. Yes. Uh, as well. And so that bothers our spirit in the black community. Just gonna be Nigerians. It's like, yeah, my God, they don't get it. Uh, but I think these type of conversations, so to this person, I would say find you some African-American friends. I'm not saying all your friends have to be African-American, obviously, you want to feel culturally connected to people, so definitely you will have Nigerian friends, but find some African-American friends too. And, you know, they can be of you know, similarities or like-mindedness to you, because obviously you're not gonna, you know, go hang out with the dude on the street corner, and that's not what you do, right? So, yes, still class will play a part into that. Um, but you can learn a lot about like what it is and what the experience has been in this country for them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, okay. So, great advice. So, guys, we've gotten our first fan mail. Hopefully, you are impressed by the knowledge we shared to this particular fan who wrote in. Please, please, please. We're encouraging you guys to use the fan mail link, uh, ask us questions, uh propose um discussion topics uh for our episodes, and we are going to listen. We're a podcast that listens, we want to grow and want to give you what you want, not just what we think you want. So, please, please, please, we encourage you. Give us five star ratings, share with your friends. Let's keep the viewership number up. So, Brandon, we're going to end. Uh, you know, yes. You did you want to say something? No, no, no. I'm good, I'm good. So we're gonna end, and I wanna do a body swap or a privileged swap. So let's swap the shield, right? And end it and end the episode today. So you will go first this time.
SPEAKER_01I thought we were swapping bank accounts. I was like, yes.
SPEAKER_00I was like, You have money, you country.
SPEAKER_01Louis Vuitton, hombre nomad, you're mine. Okay, good night. 200.
SPEAKER_00If you could get one of my privileges for 24 hours, what will it be? And you have to answer.
SPEAKER_01Um a day in your office so I can get free uh teas and free meals and all these privileges you have where I have to pack my face. I thought you have weight loss and taste to lunch. I don't care about that. Listen, um, I'm I'm happy and and big. Okay. I'm not killing myself to be skinny. But my privilege, and that's why I said I want to go eat free food. Okay. Uh, your workplace uh and enjoy all the benefits of that.
SPEAKER_00If I had 24 hours of your privilege to be to be around my closest family and friends, which I don't get to do very often.
SPEAKER_01So that doubt that would be that would be my why you have to make your uh sentimental so now I look like the family. Shallow I like how you get to see your family. Because I'm in the country I live in, so yeah, I get to see my family friends, and I'm going to see them headed to North Carolina.
SPEAKER_00Cry the river now just be by myself, you know, looking at the ceiling and wondering why my government in Nigeria has failed us.
SPEAKER_01Anyway, that's but I want to say to that, yeah. Um, speaking of that, I love how you and your family like have your family calls because y'all are spread out all over the world. We are, we are. Yeah, like you and your siblings like are all over the world, and so in different time zones and and continents and all of that. So I I love the fact that you all come together on Saturdays, catch up with what's going on with each other, catch up with what's going on in the world and Nigerian politics and all that good stuff. So even though your mouth is apart, at least you can feel some type of connection with each other. So to me, that's important.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So this this has been a very revealing episode. I think we were we came to this episode vulnerable. We were determined to you know match the request of our fan mail to talk about privileges and oppression, and we also read an email um far from the fans related to that. Did you did you did you enjoy this?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. And I will say this if we had like a shade meter, like zero to ten. No, honestly, I think we stayed around four. Okay, I don't even think we went like past five. Listen, it could have been worse, it could have been worse. And you preface this whole conversation with the peace.
SPEAKER_00And they know they know us, so they're gonna like these people refuse to go to war. And listen, we have to we have to keep it, keep the peace.
SPEAKER_01No, we're gonna keep the peace.
SPEAKER_00There's a lot of war going around, and we pray for we pray for everyone in the war, and I love that. Alright, so sign us off.
SPEAKER_01Routes and roots, catch us on Amazon, catch us on Apple Podcasts, catch us on Spotify, and we have fan mail, and we have fan mail. So please send us your fan mail, and just like we did today, uh, for one of our Nigerian listeners, come on, America, step up now. It's your boy. Yeah, you gotta show up for me. Yeah, okay, all right.
SPEAKER_00Bye bye, bye.