The Friendship Audit: Boundaries, "Red Flags," and Real Brotherhood

We’ve been friends for over 5 years, but would we survive the "Therapy-Speak" of 2026? This week, we’re going deep into the evolution of brotherhood. From the "Day Ones" back in Nigeria to the "New Ones" in the NYC tech scene, we’re asking the hard questions.
​We’re breaking down Fan Mail on "toxic" labels, the awkwardness of the "Money Gap" between friends, and why we’ve traded "showing up" for "sending a calendar invite." Is your "Emotional Intelligence" making you a better friend, or just a lonely one?

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Hey Brandon, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Namdi, wonderful. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:23

I'm doing great. It's uh another episode, episode six.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Episode six. Uh more than a handful of episodes now.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

We're at the midpoint, believe it or not.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Yes, of season one. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

So by the time we get to the 10th episode, guys, um, we'll be wrapping up season one and we'll be a big boy podcast show.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Have a whole season under our belt.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Listen, listen. Um, how have you been? The last two weeks. The last time I think you were coming off a cold and all of that. What has happened so yeah?

SPEAKER_01 0:55

I was at the tail end of the cough part of it, so thank goodness that it's gone. I remember the last episode, I was just praying that I did not have a cough again.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

What in the corona? Do we say corona or COVID? Like I don't know, though. Listen, let's not even evoke it. We have World War III already, that's enough.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Oh my goodness, yes. Uh but I'm rejuvenated from a spring break of the last seven days. We just went back to work on yesterday, so uh spent those days in North Carolina, was able to see my family, uh, relax, uh, you know, and just enjoy being away from work.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Oh my god, I'm so jealous. Tell us more about spring break in North Carolina.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Well, that was the most part of it. I didn't do a ton, I was able to hit the gym a few days, so that was good because we talked about Was the weather great? You know, the weather wasn't the great, it wasn't bad, it's you know, it wasn't cold, but it was cooler than I had hoped. Oh, okay. Uh, you know, like the towards the end it got warmer, but then I was leaving.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

So it's almost like you brought New York weather to North Carolina. You should stay with it.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

You know, it was in the mornings, it was in the 40s.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, but I think the weather is finally coming together and getting itself together, like it's time to be outside. So that was the first time I could feel comfortable going out without a hoodoo, a sweater, a jacket, and I just wore one shirt, one jean, and I was ready to hit the street.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

Yeah, so I think it's it's uh a trick though, because it's gonna be cool again next week in New York, down into the 30s a couple nights.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Uh no, down into the 30s? Into the 30s, yeah. What day? So I just stay in my house.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

You'll actually be going back to uh Pennsylvania those days, so like towards the end of next week.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Why can't you just wait till two weeks' time when I'm in Sunshine, California or something?

SPEAKER_01 2:48

April and May is always the tricky time of year for New York. Like you hit some nice days and then it's back cool, so you don't know whether to really put your jacket away and your sweaters away. Really until Memorial Day. That's when the weather like kind of truly breaks in New York. And you're welcome to summer. Oh, yeah, so the lowest maybe half 50s or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Yeah, I think for me, the thing I'm also wary about with the new season change is the pullings. Yeah, because especially for you. They get me my allergies, they get on my car, they get on my patio, they get on everything. So I'm just like, okay, this needs to come and go quickly at some point.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

Yeah, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Uh, for me, the last weeks have been interesting. It was Easter, there was a lot of singing. I like I sang so much, you know, Palm Sunday, Chris Mass, Holy Thursday, Good Friday, the Visual Easter Mass on Saturday, and then Easter Sunday. But I'm proud of myself, you know why? Tell us. This is the first time in three years where I've performed the whole tree doom or the whole holy week, and I didn't lose my voice. Like I literally came back on Easter Sunday, midday, and I had a voice. I was I could have gone to sing another concert, so I was like, okay, I'm getting used to the reading, I'm getting used to everything. So that was really, really exciting. Any other thing I did, no, nothing out of the ordinary. Um, I started watching a show, Traitor's.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

It wasn't started. You that is your show, you watched it in four different countries now.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

So that's what I mean. I started watching the New Zealand, no, the UK version, um, over the holy week, over the last two weeks, and then over this weekend, I just started the New Zealand version and been watched all of season one.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

So, um what about Australia? Have you started that?

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Yeah, I think I started it initially like earlier this year and lost in trouble. I think the accent was throwing me off, and they don't have enough drama to keep my track. Wow. I did I need a bit more spice and deviousness, but um, well, but speaking about that, what other shows are you watching at the moment?

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Um, nothing in particular. I don't have a ton of time to watch TV. Uh so excuse me. Yeah, some of us are not.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

I'm just sophisticated, I work or something.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

Uh well, I don't get to work from home two days a week. Now that cuts down on travel time and then all of that. Like it just makes a difference when you're in your house. So I think you don't understand how that helps you really prepare for the days that you have to be in the office and then be away from your home.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Okay, okay, okay, that's really cool. That's really cool. So um, it's gonna be an exciting episode. Do you know what we're talking about today?

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Uh I know, but I'm like, oh, here we go.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

It's called the friendship audit, you know, and we're going to be looking at all things friendship. I think it's going to be exciting. I think it's going to be fun. I think we're going to dissect a lot of things as it pertains to friendship. So I was thinking maybe a great way to start is to do some flashback. So we've been friends for about five, six years, debatable, who cares? But somewhere around COVID. Yeah, somewhere around COVID. I want to say to you, do a flashback and describe for me your initial impression of me in the first one month of me and you getting to know each other.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Um I think that we probably never would have been friends if it wasn't for COVID. True that, but say why, say why. Because I think that I'm a lot more extroverted than you. And maybe my personality would have been a little too strong for you. A little? A little too strong for you. Had it not been for COVID and like it wasn't so when things weren't going on. So it was just uh it worked for your personality to be like relax, chill, like do the things that didn't involve large crowds and a lot of people. Um, because you know, you it was a lot for you to go to the fet with me.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Oh, yeah, and I'm never doing that again.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

Yeah, I mean, I love it again.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Well, I'm not likely we just lost our West Cindy and all this.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Yeah, I'm just likely not to do the vet again. Uh, because I mean what was it? Sunny, Sunnyside, Sunnyside, yeah. I just remember going into one of the rooms and just sitting down there and waiting for you and every other person to be done, and yeah, it was too much. I enjoyed it, but you know, I think there's certain things you experienced once, you twice, and I think I've done it three times.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

No, just twice. No, that one year you didn't go, uh your sisters were here. Well, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

So you stay with your nephew, yeah. Yeah, but I'm saying I be I feel like I've been to three different events.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

You have because you also went to soccer brainwash.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Yes, and then the next year we did only soccer brainwash. We didn't do, I didn't go to Sonic Side. So I've done like three separate fets. I didn't know come on, that's a lot, you know. And with the culture, excuse me. You know, dun dun dun dun dun. But okay, let me stop there.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

But I think that makes a different friendship. I think that uh initially um I was open to our differences because I've had friends um uh from different African countries, from Mali, from Ghana, like close, close friends. So uh it was that part wasn't difficult for me to say, like, I understood you all. You want to eat your own food. You generally, and especially Nigerians, I learned that more, generally uh you know, congregate with each other. So they don't have a lot of outside.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

I think it's true for most groups outside. The Chinese the Chinese stay together, the Indians stay together. So why are you calling out Nigerians like that?

SPEAKER_01 8:38

No, I'm saying of the you all stay together more than other African groups in the US. I will say that like ULC Ghanaians will have uh friends from the US or you know, is that because they're just fewer of them? So they're forced to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Well, that could be part of it too.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

Like it could be like that in certain cities it's more of y'all, and New York is definitely one of those exactly cities, so it's easy to congregate and and do and do things like that. Yeah, so I knew you were you were still very strong in your culture.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Yeah, and and I do agree with you that I think there's a stillness that the pandemic brought that probably allowed us to actually become friends. Because if you were still in your go, go, go, travel every weekend, travel to all the things you used to do, that probably would have probably been high, hello, high acquaintances, but that's where it would have been. My first impression of you was who is this African American with Nigerian energy? I think that's that's the way I was because I've had other African American friends who are very different, they're very you know individualistic, they don't pay for other people when they go out. Wow, they don't settle other people's bills and whatever. So I shouldn't know not that I each job, but remember you on the phone call and telling somebody, oh, don't worry about it, just leave the house, I'll buy you a new house. And I'm like, who the hell is this person buying people houses? So it gave very Nigerian energy in an African America, so that really confused me, but also intrigued me. So yeah, I think that was like my initial impression of you, and then I think the other impression I had was that you would say what's on your mind. So I still remember the day you tried to buy me some standard watermelon from the bodega, and I insisted on Whole Foods.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

You've told the story three times now, like that that watermelon bothered you.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

I mean, my spirit, I'm like, Jesus, am I allowed to say have a say and say what I want in this friendship or something? So those were like my first impressions. Any other thing, any anything within that thing? Like, why do you think my experience of you as an African-American has been very different from other African-American friendships I may have had?

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Um I don't I think like you were in different spaces in the other friendships. I think like you weren't as settled uh in America as you were um at that time because shortly after I met you, um, your green card process was approved. So I think you felt more settled here and not having to think and worry about that. Uh, because you used to check that app every single day.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Listen, I I'm going through something else now and I'm checking every single day. So welcome back to that, you know, in our behavior, you know. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

But um, so I think it was like you weren't in your PhD program, you weren't like had just moved starting your job, like you were settled in your career. So I think it allowed you uh the space to be open to friendships in that way.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Okay, yeah, that's fair, that's fair, that's fair. Okay, that's cool. So um we have fan mail. Oh wow. So I'm going to read out the fan mail, and then that will help guide the next segment of our conversation. Okay, so this is from one of our brothers, his name is Marcos from Maryland. Go, Marcos, thank you for being a listener. And he says, Hey guys, love the show. I am a 45-year-old black man. Lately, I feel like I can't even have a disagreement with my boys without someone calling the behavior toxic or narcissistic. My wife says, I need better boundaries, but I just miss having a beer without a therapy session. Are we overanalyzing brotherhood? Is there room for grace? And when did therapy speak infiltrate our friendships as black men in America? I would like if you guys can talk about this.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

So wow, that is like serious. Break this down, brother. Break this down. Well, it just like I'm having so many like flashes and thoughts right now. Because I think we do that now uh to each other without even noticing. Like we're really monitoring each other and how we speak now uh to make sure there's not some underlying mental health issue there. Red flags, whoa, like what's wrong, buddy? Like, why are you talking? Like, why'd you say that? Like, what does that mean? And before it used to just be regular banter, or we call it jokes, right? Uh so in in my friend group, we have a lot of jokes. Like, you have to have tough skin because you know, we go in on each other. It's not necessarily the case with everybody, but me and my boys like we do. We talk about whatever is wrong with you or you know, whatever you did in your past, like nothing is really off limits uh with us. But I didn't think about how much how times are now may have started to affect how we communicate each with each other, even in our like down and free times, even when we're just joking. We do it better one-on-one, but in a group setting, maybe we are monitoring ourselves a little more. Um, and then how much does age have to do with that? Like, because we are, you know, you know, men of a certain age, like my group anyway, you know, we're in our 50s. So now he says he's 45 years old.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

He is, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

So now did that change some of it? But I'm relating to what he said. Like, yeah, we do do that. Like, what is going on? Would you let me check in with you? How are you?

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Yeah, yeah, but I but I think there's also a part of it that is like what is acceptable male behavior that is not called toxic masculinity. So roughnecking with your boys, I think used to be something that people used to bond over, but now it's like, is that some form of toxicity wearing its ugly head and showing up? I think it's part of that question, right? I think there is also the thing of because now they say, Oh, everybody go to therapy and all of that. Some of that language is seeping into our daily vernacular where people are like, Oh, I have agency, I have autonomy, um, my boundaries are this, and there are red flags that right here. I I choose myself before I choose you. So, speak to how you've seen those things more because I'm assuming 20 years ago those were not normal things that were in the everyday language of friendship in America. And what was mean your experience seeing it infiltrate and where it is today? Is it doing more harm, doing more good? Is it is it have we missed the script where it was supposed to be doing some positive things, but now it's the thing that is overshadowing? How would you break this down in the context of friendship?

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Yeah, wow. This is uh we want to keep it light too, though. Um, I think Marcos asked the question. I think I want to answer his question.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

He ex he expects that we are two intellectuals who can break this down, so feel free to speak here.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

Well, I'm looking at two this in two different ways. One, uh, when he was saying the therapy speak and that type of thing. That's one thing. The toxic masculinity is something separ I would like to discuss separately because you mentioned that uh separate from what he is talking about when you're just with your boys or whatever, because we're not thinking of ourselves as you know, toxic masculinity, like that's other people saying that from the outside or looking at how we're interacting with each other or our behaviors as you know, having some type of toxicity to it. Uh so I want to keep those two things separate. So I think that because so often somebody is going through something and we laugh and joke it off, and and especially uh I will speak for the African American community, um, we don't give it the focus that it might need, and we've avoided uh therapy for so long and getting the help we need for serious situations that we've been through and need to have that help. That now that there is an openness to it, it's us checking in, but like where's the balance?

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

When can I just call you and we just shoot in the breeze and you're not analyzing me in some kind of way to say is something wrong with me? Because I'm talking or acting like this when I should be able to put my cap down with you, you know, not let your hair down, but put your cap down and say, like, hey, this is my boy. We I'm not worried about am I gonna say the wrong thing or offend him?

SPEAKER_00 17:23

So essentially the kitchen table talk.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

Yeah, and that's where it stays. And like it's not like, oh, dude, you said this, and the other day you were talking about this. So now a lot of times we're afraid, like, can I trust you? Like, is this conversation really staying with you and I? And especially like what technology, right? Did you record us? No, and this is gonna come up some other kind of way, like everybody's on edge, like what's happening, right? And especially those of us with careers in the public eye.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Okay, because it can really hurt us. So I want to ask your point of view in terms of certain things influencing friendship. Therapy, therapy, has it done more good than harm for friendships?

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Um it depends. Okay, I think it's done good for individuals, but when someone is doing their work in healing, you do have less time for the BS. And what used to not be considered BS, like, because we mature at different points, right? Like everybody's not gonna be like, oh, I'm here now, right? I don't go out as much, I don't drink as much anymore. I don't want to really be around large crowds. So that's where I'm at right now, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:41

But is that as a result of maturing, or is that as a result of therapy?

SPEAKER_01 18:45

It's not a result uh uh therapy in general, but I've worked on me, right? Uh so it's both. I think it's a combination that you worked on yourself and realized that those things that you used to do are considered fun no longer appeal to you in that same way.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Okay. I would say a couple of things.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Because it's a risk with that comes with that.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Yeah, I'll say a couple of things. Hopefully, it's not too controversial. As the immigrant looking inward outward, inward into America, I find therapy to be a privilege and luxury. Quink wicked to some prior episodes back. I find that what may have been intentioned for good is now creating a space where people go into friendships, platonic friendships, romantic friendships, expecting perfection. There is no room for there is the work I will do on my own, there is the work you will do on your own, but there's the work that we can do together because iron sharpet iron. I think that that is going away, and if you don't come complete as a whole person, there's this there's this an issue. I think the other thing is then where is the room for giving grace? Where is the room for forgiving? Where is the room for saying somebody can be fully healed of whatever childhood trauma that is happening but can still be allowed to make mistakes because life, guess what, is messy. So I do feel like that that that in that kind of way is done more negative. I also think it's also a privilege because it further amplifies the very individualistic nature of the American society. Because if you come from a country like Nigeria where everything is very communal and community-based, you're almost forced to have to depend on people to do stuff. But here where you pay for your own apartment, get your own car, you don't cook, you don't drive, you don't wash, you don't clean, you're everything is in your bubble, and then you further encase and harden that bubble with all of this therapy amory that you've gotten from therapy sessions. I feel like the only reason it can even amplify and shine in a society like this is because it's already an individualistic society. And so I start to wonder are more people experiencing loneliness, are more people experiencing isolation in uh and and not reaping the full benefits of true, deep, meaningful friendship that come with its messiness simply because of therapy. I think that's where I was trying to push some of that conversation too.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

And and I can see how you see it like that, yeah, um, looking from the outside in, where you come from a different type culture. But I would say our culture here is communal too. I think times have you know definitely shifted that. It used to be much more communal because you could say something to somebody's kids or to somebody without it becoming this argument or fear that we're gonna have to now, you know, have some type of physical altercation or something because something I said to you. But I want to go back uh to uh I believe you said his name was Marcus uh to address his point because he spoke about it as a married man. So I can understand that as like when he's with his boys, that's his outlet. And so now my outlet has to now start to feel like like Where can I just be cool and say what I need to say? Definitely he's having to be mindful of how he speaks to his wife to make sure, like, you know, he's uplifting her in a certain way, and then he's not dealing with yeah, exactly. Uh, because we protect black women, of course. So I I know that he's having to do that, and then if he has kids, you know, he's having to raise them a certain way. So it's like when I'm with my boys, like this is our time that I can just not think about all of that or worry about how how I'm saying something or what I'm saying as well. So I definitely feel him on that.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

And there's a level of elitism that I think is sculpted in all of that therapy, emotional intelligence, red flags, agency, like those types of things. I think it's almost like saying there is a bar, and I would argue it's an elitism bar, an elite bar that also has its own Eurocentric standards that I think are not in communion with the more sort of communal way of living. Because I mean, in every family we have the superstar, we have the okay people, we have that fucked up cousin who is not doing so well, and and that but but but but but I think it's the it's the mixture of all of things that make family and communal life wholesome and full and robust. I don't know that that if my family would be the family I love today if everything was pristine and shun and everybody is perfect and there is nothing to polish, you know what I'm trying to say.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

So, you know, nobody's working on something and trying to help people, you know, become a better version of themselves and that type of thing. So I definitely agree with you on that, and I think it is like I never heard these words before. Like, these weren't words that came up in general conversation with me and my boys from the 90s and the early 2000s. We weren't like the therapy speak per se. Like we weren't talking about that. Like, what is agency? Like your insurance agency? Like, what does that mean? Like you must be hard, and you focusing on me, like, yeah, you should focus on you because you are you, like, like all those things, like becoming focusing malicious. What is all of that? So um, I think that yeah, we have things have changed in that sense. I will say, um, again, I think it's when you get older and you have a lot more to lose, you are more mindful about some of the things that maybe some of your boys are still doing and you don't want to be associated with.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

So I think that can still exist to say, hey, like I'm gonna deal with you in this environment, maybe not the outside environment. So it's not like we can't be friends, but I ain't going nowhere with you. Yeah, because something happened.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Wrap up your advice for Marcos. Um Dr. You remind you, for the five-year-old black man married, feels littly, he can't just hang with the boys and be himself. Everybody's policing his speech, they're using words like toxic, narcissistic, emotional intelligence, and he's like, What is going on? And even when he turned to his wife, the wife says, Have more boundaries in choosing your friends. So it's like, what is happening here?

SPEAKER_01 25:09

Yeah, my advice would be get new friends. Joke about no, your boys are your boys. I would say have this conversation with them, okay, like and say, like, okay, when can we have balance? Like, let's name it then. Like, because some of them might need that because of something they're going through. So they might need a certain whatever. But if this is your true boys, then I can say, like, hey guys, not even joking right now. I need to talk to y'all about something that may be a little more serious in my life. Um, but I don't know, like, if me and my boys can ever do that. So I'm like, I feel bad for Marcus because me and my boys, even in the down moments, I remember, I'm gonna tell a story. Okay, that my grandmother passed. And my grandmother and I were extremely close because by the time she passed, my mother had passed before her. Okay. And so uh two of my fraternity brothers, I won't name them, but they know who they are, were there at the funeral, and some things were happening at the funeral that were funny, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:08

And these dudes tell me things always happen at funerals, you know that's right. I thought it was just in Africa, but I'm realizing it's everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

So they could not wait to the repass to get me by myself so they could laugh and laugh and joke about these things. They were like, oh my god, I almost died, I almost bust out laugh when this happened or that happened at the funeral, right? So even in those moments, they know they're there for me, and I know they're there for me, and I know they love me, care about me, but we can laugh and joke. It didn't have to be like this, oh my god, like if the world is they know I'm sad or whatever, and it brought me out of it, right? Like in that moment, it's like my boys are still my boys. So my advice to Marcus is like, you know, let your boys still be your boys, and you know, are you putting more on this than it needs to be? So, like, figure that out too. Like, yeah, does it seem like it's more than it needs to be? Or maybe y'all just in different spaces right now, and that's okay too.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

I think I think that's where I was going to go. That maybe you're in different spaces and you have to acknowledge that, but then tongue in cheek, I also want to say I hope Marcos is not badly behaved and trying to give an excuse for poor behavior. So, as long as Marcos, you know yourself, you're doing what you need to do, you're not doing anything out of the ordinary. Then I think sometimes there are friendships that come and go, and they're the ones that last for different um seasons. But thank you. We can be your friends, you can listen to us every two weeks, and we can be your friends, and then one day we're gonna we're gonna um finally have like a live session and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Exactly, where people can finally come and see us.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

All right, so I want to switch to another part of it, and there's a fan mail, it's quite long, it's from a female. I will tell you that she's Nigeria.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

I mean we don't have female listeners.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

Listen, I don't know who our demographics are. I actually need to go and look at the analytics, but it's always exciting to have we like last week. We had a fan mail from a male in Nigeria today. We have a male from Maryland, and now this is our first female. So, shout out to Amaka in Houston. So we're listening to everywhere. It's a very long because I'm not gonna read everything, but um, what essentially she's saying is that she had a friend, she made a fellow African immigrant she met when she moved here for school for uh postgrad. They were friends to the US, yeah. To the US, so she she met the friend in the US when she moved here for school. The friend also had just moved, or the person had just moved from another African country for school, so they were all like schoolmates and became friends because they are both they were both new African students immigrant. Oh, they're both from West Africa, yes, they're both from West Africa, Nigeria. That matters, Nigeria and Syria alone. But I think the point she's trying to say is that in the four years post-graduating, one of them has done slightly better than the other one successfully, and seeming to make more money than the other one, and they've seen a drift in their friendship, and it's not as close. No big quarrel, no big flair, but that the friendship just seems to be drifting. So I think in reading that, I want to ask the first question. Thinking about Amaka's story, but generally in all stories, to what extent do you think money gaps impact the quality of friendship?

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Well, you can look at your friend and say, God will do it.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

In the words of my good friend Nigeria, we say, We'll keep clapping at the back till it's our time.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

Right. I'm waiting. Yeah, I think it uh you explain it.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

We're not laughing at you, yeah. Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

Yeah, um, I think you can explain that better because you've had that same immigrant experience. Like, I think it's a different level of competition between y'all uh than if you we were born and raised here. Um, because some will you know do what they need to do, some won't. Um, and so um Steve Harvey said it if you're the smartest in your group, then you need to find a new group. But also if you're the richest in your group, because you already know what that means. You might want to find a new group if nobody got money. Like uh I mean I'm joking, but seriously.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

So I think that's all your friends wealthy? Not all, but everybody's doing wealthy.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

In what way does money shape friends? I'm not saying talk about your personal, but I'm just saying, in what way do you think money makes or breaks friendship?

SPEAKER_01 30:39

I think that if one friend feels like they're always having a care and then it goes on for years, and then you're old and you're like, okay, you know, especially I'm speaking for dudes. Like, dude, you ain't never gonna get your shit together. Like, come on now. Um, so I think in a a sense like that, but or when one is more given than the other one, meaning you both have, but one you know, you're more given than the other friend, and so like you're always carrying things, and the other friend finds ways to spend his money on the things he wants to, but when it's time for y'all to hang out and do things together, you're the one footing the bill. So that can become an issue too.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

So can I hold that point? Yes. So is that an issue if one person makes significantly more than the other? Or is that an issue if we all make roughly about the same thing, but I'm the only one bringing to the table?

SPEAKER_01 31:31

If we all make in like the same thing, if one is significantly wealthier than the other, but you don't know like what they're having to do, also. Because let's be fair, you make significantly more than me. Hello, please. Who am I? But no, like let's be fair. Like, we have different careers.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

By the way, yeah, uh, PSA tomorrow is tax day in America. It is budget tax. I just got my returns and I went into a paralytic shock, but that's asking that you know to whom much is given.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

Lord have mercy on it is required.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

I'm like, where is that conservative party? I need to go register.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

Okay, but sorry, I didn't mean to distract you, yeah. But but no, I think in that in that sense though, but um it still has to be balanced within that.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

But I find that nobody like just because they make more have to pay or yeah, yeah, but but but I find that there are certain friendships where there are people who will purposely, purposefully seek out people who make significantly less than them because there is a measure of pleasure they get from being the financially superior one that gives them power and control. So it's almost like the alpha dog and they are his beta followers, and so he may not mind pain all the time because he's when he backs everybody false information, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

And I think that's a self-esteem thing. I think that's somebody they need that to feel a certain way, right? And to be able to do that rather than build somebody up so that they're you know they have their own. I wanna make sure we're addressing her question though. So I wanted you to speak on it from the immigrant perspective. Like, is that different? Like if you're both here and one ends up it works out better for one.

SPEAKER_00 33:26

I think I think to be fair, it's an Amaka problem, not the French problem. Um, I think that there are many reasons why friendships between immigrants will strengthen or weaken over the years. Um, and it may not always be money, you know. People go through different immigration journeys in trying to secure legality, as it were. Um people might fall in love and find a significant other, and that might be the thing that sort of dilutes the friendship that people might um, you know. So I I I I I I want to be careful that sometimes I think, like you said, we project our inadequacies and say, Oh, it's it has to be because she makes more than me. But it might be, oh, she found a boot and she's in love with and is spending all her free time as a dead, and then also just to call out that to your point that there's always that acute or keen sense of competition as to who is doing better than the other. So I would just say to Amaka, relax. Friendship shouldn't be forced, friendship shouldn't be something you have to work super hard on. So if you really feel like your girl is not showing up in the way you need her to show up, have a conversation. And after the conversation, if nothing meaningful comes out of it or the behavior doesn't change, then the friendship has come to I don't feel like things always have to end with fireworks, or I think there are times where it's okay for things to burn out and things allowed and people to move and know that you didn't hurt me, I didn't hurt you. Yo, bro, we just ended up in two separate spaces, and that is okay. It's okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:57

I think that's the biggest thing.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

Like sometimes friendships reach their expiration, yes, and that I think we have to normalize that a lot because I think sometimes people always feel like if me and this person are not talking, somebody must have done something to the other person, and and sometimes it's not true, sometimes it's just in two different spaces. And I'm also just getting my personal experience as to COVID did a number on me emotionally, mentally, and as it was. I know that in that space, a lot of my friendship composition changed, and I can't say because I did something to somebody or somebody did something, but it was more about just trying to survive isolation and lockdown, meant things just changed, and it's just what it was, you know.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

And so a lot of it was proximity, yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

You know, so it's just uh what it is. Okay, um, another one uh, you know, she her friend is you said not like female, yeah. No, no, no. Oh another point I wanted to also discuss for that fan male is that you know what I mean. She mentioned her friend is female and she's female, but I wanted to ask about can men and women be just friends?

SPEAKER_01 36:03

That's been like the question. The gender divide now.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

So we've talked of the money divide, let's talk about the gender divide.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

I always say this as long as they're not sexually attracted to each other.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

In either case, like because as a man, I'm not attracted to every female.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

Um if you're not like sexually attracted and she's not sexually attracted to.

SPEAKER_00 36:28

Hold up. So there is sexual attraction, there's romantic attraction. I I want us to detangle the top of because I might not be romantically attracted to you, but we still want to get in bed with you. Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

SPEAKER_01 36:43

And that's why I was specific in what I said. I said sexually attracted.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

But do you always know?

SPEAKER_01 36:48

Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_00 36:49

I mean, one night.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

No, if you would someone enough double VT. That's why people say no, right? So you don't put yourself in that position. Okay. Because it's oh my friend, my friend, my friend, and then later, it's because there was not an attraction initially, but because you kept spending this time around this person. It might then be. It became something else. Yeah. That's why a lot of work relationships happen, right? A lot of times people aren't attract attracted to each other initially when they see each other in work, or they have their boundaries set, right? But you keep seeing this person every day. So even though they were not attractive to you, or they may have even been unattractive, right? Like not just not attractive, but like you didn't even view them as attractive at all. So, but you see them every day and they start to grow on you. This happens a lot with women, with men. They don't feel like the man is attractive, but then he starts to grow on them because he's kind, he's nice, he's asking her about her day or doing some of the things that maybe whoever the guy she's in relationship with is not doing anymore. Now he's, you know, realizing like what her favorite this or that is, and oh, I picked this up for you. You know, like then it's it can turn into something else. So can they be friends? Yes, but it has to be these extreme boundaries of how you're spending your time together, you know, all of that. Because a lot of times people say, Oh, that's been my friend, you know, for years. And I had female friends that like my sister, you know what I'm saying? Like, and that's the thought about the relationship, that's where we're at. You know what I'm saying? Like, whether they might have some attraction to me or not, I don't have an attraction to them like that. So we've just been able to withhold those boundaries for years.

SPEAKER_00 38:37

So it almost sounds like of course, as humans, as higher animals, we have self-control. But it almost sounds like there is an active effort to be in self-control mode, otherwise, it will not work until you reach a certain place of maturity. Got it.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

I think in my younger days, yes, it was an active, you know, saying, like, no, this that's a line. And then once you reach a certain like it's it normalizes out and everything, okay, not gonna be crossed.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

Yeah, I personally think male and females can be friends. I think I do have great female um friendships that are not romantic and not sexual, and it's just what it is, you know. Um but to your point, I feel like we've had one too many examples of she's just my sister, I'm just her brother, and then sister and brother turned to so yeah, yeah. So I do turn a husband and wife. Yeah, I mean, that's in the best case scenario. I'm not even against it turning into husband and wife, it turns into baby mama drama, that's where it becomes a real issue. Okay, so that's that, and then the last one I wanted to bring up now is especially in the age of online friendships and social media. How is social media how do you think it's showing up in friendships today?

SPEAKER_01 39:57

When you say online friendship meaning like you never met or something, like you just friends. So I'll tell you this.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

So yeah, I'm like a lot of my starting career, I worked in a lot of countries in sub-Saharan Africa, and like every six months I would have to leave and pack my things to another country to start work there. So all the friends I made in six months in this particular country automatic automatically became Facebook friends. Because I can tell you for free, I have not returned back to see any of them.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

Yeah, I've not returned back to the but you've met, you you were there with him, yeah, knew each other, like that type of thing. Yeah, that's different than like we only know each other through Facebook or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 40:35

We've never really yeah, but I think the part I wanted to just speak to is how is social media shaping friendships in general?

SPEAKER_01 40:42

Well, I think for some, especially when we started talking about back to market's point with therapy speaking, stuff like that. Sometimes we're judging our friends based on what they're posting. Yes. And like, whoa, and then we're having side conversations or our own thoughts about whoa, what is happening? What like why did you post that and why did you say that? So I think it is causing us to have a certain insight into our friends' lives that we probably normally wouldn't have had, you know, uh without them just having a conversation telling us about it, right? If we're not in the same area where we're seeing each other on a monthly basis, even, right? That you get to hang out with your boys. Um, so I think social media is is causing that to happen for us to have you know um judgments about you outside of just our personal relationships based on like what you post and what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Okay, okay, that's fair. So so there's a saying that says if you don't have a family member embarrassing you on social media, thank God. You just so if you don't have a friend doing the worst on social media, then you should thank God. I I get that point.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

I can't thank God.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

Are you are you into I posted a picture, my friend didn't like it? He's being shady.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

Oh, absolutely. That is crazy.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

I think that's more my generation and younger, right?

SPEAKER_01 42:02

Like uh no, I have some people who have made that statement. Females. I've never heard a male like worry about how many likes or who liked and who didn't. I always think it's crazy for people to look at that. Like who liked your picture?

SPEAKER_00 42:14

Like well, if you can imagine that certain people make passive income from social media.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

I guess if it's your thing, or like you felt like they should support you. But even when I uh post about this podcast, which we're doing, right? Because we enjoy doing it, it's not like you know, I mean, you know, if God will do it, I'll take the richness. But I'm not looking to say, oh, did you view it and didn't listen to the podcast like this and that? Like some my cousins and I laughed about this when I was home. I was like, hey, y'all listened to my last episode, and then like, no, like you gotta send it to me again. They forgot, you know, like they might not have seen my story when I posted or whatever, and then they laughed. They were like, Can you see? How do you know? I said, Y'all didn't even listen to the last episode. They was like, Oh, you can see us. Oh, can you see? And I'm like, No, I can't see y'all. I'm just messing with you, because then you would have had something to say about it if you did listen. That's all I'm messing with. You're like, yes, of course, I appreciate the support, but I ain't gonna be mad at you because a lot of stuff y'all have done I ain't listened to or support.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

So, did you convince them to listen? Uh if they do, they do. No, I'm saying did you? Because I can go back to the analytics and see posts. They said they would listen. Okay, so I'll see if there was a spike in numbers. So but if they're Brandon's family, it's okay, and I'll find that. Okay, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay, that's fine. Alright, so we're coming down, we're winding down, and uh, you know me, I like my rapid fire session. So are you ready for the hot seats? Okay, why does it have to be needless on the house? Well, you can do the production, pre-production work and come up and go. Okay, get you you will have to answer my question that I spend my time fixing.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

Yeah, exactly. Get inside this friendship and then see who acts like what? Whatever.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

Um, so it's called the rapid fire friendship audits, and in this true spirit of therapy. speak I'm going to say green flag red flag or you tripping okay or you tripping yeah so it's those three so a friend who asks for a loan but posts vacations on IG Instagram okay a friend who only calls when they need advice uh if that's the nature of the friendship so green flag green flag okay good you see you're not a needy friend a friend who tells you who tells your secret to their spouse red flag red flag but you're not everybody does that no I don't think everybody does that because I don't do it it depends on what the secret is like if it's something like it depends on the secret you shouldn't be told you shouldn't be telling your spouse that your friend is cheating because then she probably look at you like okay your friends cheat you cheat like certain things you should keep to yourself quit pillow talking wisdom okay okay quit pillow talking and then the last one a friend who uses I don't have emotional capacity for this to avoid an apology you're tripping okay you're tripping okay all right so um we are closing out um this has been a great episode yeah did you oh that was it that was rapid yeah that was it yeah I tried to keep it simple I mean and tomorrow you'll still complain but you know I tried to do my best to understand but I think it was a great episode uh we really looked at friendship in different dimensions guys I hope you enjoyed it keep the fan mails coming to be fair we're trying to get to episode 10 to make a full season and the way um brand and I think about it is that season one is you guys truly getting to know us and so we will continue to have topics and topics and themes every um time we post but we're hoping that those topics and themes will be driven by fan mails that people send to us and then hopefully in season two it's just going to be episodes where we're just reading fan mails and giving nugget wisdom and having some guests yeah yeah I've had several people oh I want to be on listen we're we're growing but the guests will come and we'll be happy to have them we're happy to have them and then hopefully one day they can see us we'll record like video record actually you got a gift for the podcast that I get oh my goodness we forgot to shout them out it's the ungrateful that do you I listeners do you have ungrateful friends is that a red flag or you tripping no that's uh I got too much on my mind and then we just got went back to screen shout out because he does listen yeah shout out to my nephew Matthew okay in Greensboro North a real one yes he asked me he said uh send me the logo for your podcast that was all you asked I was like do you have it because I thought he wanted a logo yeah that's why I asked you so I sent it I had no idea okay what he was going to do but he created a lighted sign for us whoop whoop for our podcast routes and roots with our logo it is so super nice shout out to you Matt uh from your uncle all the way in Brooklyn New York thank you our first well we had sweatshirts we had sweatshirts we have swag which we're hoping to release in previous seasons so guys we're we're coming we're coming yeah so but this is like big because it's like a lighted sign uh so whenever we do start videoing you will see it in the video yeah yeah yeah so um and then also shameless blog anyone listening out there interested in some type of sponsorship get us now that we are cheap get us now that we are unknown you know so I'm expensive no I mean we're not a very popular podcast let's come back to earth because a time will come where our call rate will be super high so this is the time if you're in education if you're in tech if you're about a diaspora if you're about the black community and things that concern our people this is the time to come to us to put and do shout outs our call rates are really low use the fan mail guy send us things you can see we have some lived experiences that we can share until next time where can they find us oh they can find us on um Spotify yeah Apple Podcast and Amazon um music um or generally wherever you get your podcast will show up there and we'll do a better job of putting it out there too like on social media so that you know you see brandy will do a better job of doing that because guys I don't have social media and maybe yeah you ain't putting it on there at some point I think I should open a rouse rouse to root um social Instagram or something so we can do that but please we'll like your feedback give us a five star rating on the podcast it helps more visibility through the algorithm but we also want your comments your feedback and your fan mails so that we are truly speaking on topics that you guys are interested in shout out to Marcos shout out to Amaka we really appreciate you guys absolutely all right any last words no thank you for listening thank you for listening