The Bag & The Burden: Who Stole the "Real Man"?

One viral video of a man shpping for a bag, and the internet wants to "Bring back real men." But what does that even mean in 2026? This week, the Techie and the Principal are going deep into the evolution of masculinity.
​From the "Alpha" archetypes of the C-suite to the "Protector" roles in our neighborhoods, we’re debating whether the changes in how we dress, speak, and lead are progress or a problem. We’re answering fan mail on "softness," comparing how we train boys in Lagos vs. the US.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Hey Brandon! Nandi, how are you? I'm doing well. It's another day of recording. We are here, episode seven.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Episode seven. Ah, and we've had our fresh year of technical difficulty tonight.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

You absolutely did. If only they knew, uh, we'll do like a bloopers episode to say, like, this is what it took to put this together.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

But it's all love. It's all love.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

It is. We're learning and growing.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

We're learning and we're growing. Um, so it's uh Tuesday evening in Brooklyn. How has your last couple of weeks been?

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Oh, the last couple of weeks have been wonderful. The weather is playing tricks on us. Big tricks? Yeah. Like one day it's like super warm and nice. I had on some short sleeve shirts, uh, and then the next day I was back to sweaters and vests.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

Listen, the same thing. I think the weather is dangerous for a couple of reasons. You call you go out thinking, oh, it's great weather, I don't need to wear a lot of clothes, and then the evening time catches you by surprise, and then suddenly you have to get something wearing, and if you don't have that, you can expose yourself to cold. The other reason why I think it's dangerous is then that there is this issue of pollen in the air. So trying to breathe and all of that stuff. So yeah, it's been very interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Absolutely. But I think it's because when you go out early in the morning and you come home later in the the evening, that's where it's it's trickier because it's cooler in the mornings.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Definitely, definitely. But what else? What have what how was your weekend? What did you get up to? All of that good stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Um, a nice, good, lazy weekend. I guess you can call it lazy as uh I tried to stay in the house as much as possible. Uh working every Saturday, though. It's like, you know, when is that day you get to sleep in? Uh, but we have Saturday school going on. Those of you in education understand what that is. That is that testing time of year. Uh, so we have the kids come in on Saturdays, uh, you know, to get that extra support uh to do well on the state test, which is coming up.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

Oh, okay. Okay. Any any other thing you did? Church, shopping, spending money. I did.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

There's no money to be spent. I did not to be a tax return. What tax return? I wish. I need some children to claim. Jesus. Uh-huh. No, I did Bedside Baptists, uh, as we like to call it in the African American community. So um, I watched church online uh this past week, but looking forward to being in the presence of the saints on this coming Sunday.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

Okay, fantastic. Um, for me, it's been work, work, but we also had a one-week break from singing just because we were very um intense for one week during the holy week. And so this Thursday we sort of got back to singing, um, and that was really, really cool. Um, so it was nice to see everybody again after the one week layover, and then just figure out what we're going to be doing music-wise for the rest of the for the of the season. So definitely um that was really cool. Any other thing I did? Um, no, not nothing really. This weekend coming is the pen relay. So I do look forward to going to attend the pen relays and seeing some um good sprinting 100 meters, 200 meters. So I think I'll be doing that, and then after that, it's because you are a big track fan.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Yes, yes, I am a big track fan. Your star track person is not running. No, Shelly, Shelly has retired, yes. Shelly and Frazier Price.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

She's my age mate, she needs to retire. She's retired, she's enjoying life and all the things that come with retirement. I'm envious of her because I can't retire for another 20 years in my own career, but definitely super proud of her. But you know, the young the young ones are taking over the same storyline plus as still there is Jamaica versus US. It's Jamaica, US versus the the rest of the world, but it's also some of the um sprinters from Africa like Botswana and South Africa who are showing up in a big way and putting speed on Africa on the continent. So I'm um so there was a Tom Jones memorial, and there are other races lined up, and I'm going to be watching as much as I can.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Nice, and Elaine is back this year.

SPEAKER_02 4:37

Elaine is back, the big machine is back, and uh, I mean, this is not a sports podcast, but for those who know, she's been injured for like two years. In fact, she did not run at all in 2025, and I was in the ICANN stadium in New York the day she ran her last race and had a when she had an injury, yeah. Yeah, to her Achilles, so that was in 2024. So it's been wonderful to see her come back. She's been coached by Shelly Anne's um coach when she was running, so that's great. And uh she dropped a nine 10.92. Um, I mean, I'm not a fan, but Shakari also did some great running too this this weekend.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

Oh you gotta hate on my girl Shakari.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

I'm not hating, I'm just saying I'm not a fan, but you know, she's that girl for America, you know. So you know it happens, yeah. Um, so she ran she ran a phenomenal final leg in the release um at the Tom Jones Memorial, so that was really cool too.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

And speaking of track, we have to give a shout out. It was like a marriage between America and Jamaica.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

Yeah, um Noah Lyles and uh Janelle Smith, um, and beautiful, beautiful black love, black excellence.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

We're here, we're here to support it.

SPEAKER_02 5:47

We're definitely here to support it. We want to see more sports stars show show that kind of image out there.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Yeah, it's it's a really uh wonderful uh union, and I'm looking forward to you know them staying together uh and having a great life together. Uh for me, that's you in the sports world. We'll just talk briefly about my sports world, which is the NBA playoffs are underway.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

Uh is that your sports?

SPEAKER_00 6:09

Yeah, I love the Lakers now. So the Lakers made football, of course, but NBA too. I I don't follow NBA like that till the playoffs. Yeah, because there's so many games.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Every time I see you cry for sports is football, but it's the crying for me. Your team always loses.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Wow, that's what we own today. We got jokes. Don't mind me from the track fan. We got jokes.

SPEAKER_02 6:36

You know, track boys, we just talk. You understand? Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Because you don't have a team to go for. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Like those of us. Yes, but like I was saying, Lakers are in the playoffs. We uh won the first game. Uh so game two coming up against the Houston Rockets. So uh we'll see. You know, LeBron is uh your age mate too.

SPEAKER_02 6:59

Yeah, and uh you know with his receding hairline.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

No, he cut it ball.

SPEAKER_02 7:03

He cut it bald, he cut it ball, he finally let it go. Let it go.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

LeBron has let it go. Yeah, okay, it's okay. Uh, but you know, I think this is final round for him. It should be. It should be.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Yeah, it will do well. Okay, I think there's been across different sports an overextension of legends and icon, maybe staying a little bit too long and not knowing where to exit. So it's I think Venus in tennis, it's Tom Brady in NFL, it's Shelly Ann in track, and now it's um Lebron in uh in basketball. So he's been interested. And and Cristiano Ronaldo in football or soccer. So so so that that those have been there. Um, I guess it's my generation not willing to accept that we are old now and give space for for other people. I think that's what it is.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

They've learned it from the generations and uh politicians that don't want to give it up in their careers. In for the news, in for the news, we're not doing that. They stay until the end, listen, listen, they will die in office.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

Listen, yeah, but in further news, um, we just wanted to say the reception to last week's episode was really good. Nice, nice so thank you guys, thank you, viewers. We asked that you guys went go back and listen to prior episodes. I went back and looked at the back end and the analytics show that you guys actually went back and listened to the AI episode, listened to uh the friendship episode, um, and we're very grateful. We'll continue to churn out contents. And like I said, season one is just about you guys getting to know us and the kinds of perspectives that we bring. And we're hoping that in season two we will power this more from a reading your emails and answering questions to the best of our ability. But thank you, thank you. Um, as it were, absolutely thank you.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

We're trying to build our fan base, guys. So keep listening, we appreciate you.

SPEAKER_02 8:58

Yeah, and and we also got some feedback, you know. So I think somebody had given us feedback to say they really want us to go deep with some of the questions, especially when they come from fans. Um, and guys will try to balance it. We don't want this to be classy session, we want to keep it fun, we want to keep it in its banter nature, but we will take the feedback because we want to make sure we are listening. So we ask you guys to write to us, so we have to listen when you write and make sure that we do topics the best justice that we can. You have to say there?

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Yeah, and just know that, like, even though you know it's a short period of time because this time goes by fast when we're recording and we're like, oh wow, it's been an hour already. Um, that we are also open to coming back and addressing something that needs to be addressed too. So yeah, we we don't want to just breeze over serious things too.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

Okay, all right, great. So, do you know what we're talking about today? I have an idea.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Okay. Do you want to give us what that idea is? Um, I know we're talking about what masculinity looks like.

SPEAKER_02 10:06

Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding. And he's correct, you win the jackpot. Yeah, so we're talking about that topic called masculinity. Um, and I am counting it as the bag and the burden, who stole the real man? And I think you were asking me pre-production where did the bag and the burden come from and all. So yeah, I was thinking about topics, I was going through our fan mails trying to see if people had preferred topics and all. And while I was on social media, you know, I'm not really a social media person, but when I was just looking the other day, I came across this fascinating video. So a young man, young black man, I think he works and um in tech and makes some good money, was doing a fashion haul, right? So he had gone to like a high-end store, bought a couple of very expensive things that I cannot afford and I will never buy and wear. But he came back to do the fashion haul, and I think one of it was a Hermes bag.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

And for men, yeah, for men.

SPEAKER_02 11:07

Okay, it's interesting you said that immediately because then yeah, because when you think of Hermes, like for men, yeah, and so I didn't even know that Hermes made bags for men, but when I went to the comment section, many I can't give you a percentage, but there were several and many comments of people, both male and female, saying, Why should a man have a bag? Why do men wear bags? In the in the early days or in the old days, men went to war, and now in these days we have men buying bags and saying it's a man bag, and you know, some people say, Oh, bring back real men and all. And so man purse. Yes, or whatever. And so I think that struck me, and I was like, you know what? I should bring this to the show and talk to you, Brandon, about it. Given this anecdote, what what is what is this concept of real men bring back real men? Have you seen it show up in your social media, in your conversations with people in the real world? And what do you think that that sentiment means? Bring back real men.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Um, I think that like that phrase itself, real men, has been around for a while. Like, you know, I definitely can say like I heard it uh in the 90s and into the early 2000s, that type of thing, like real men, you know. Um there's so many different ways you can address that, right? I think like now when I think about it, it's like a fashion context, right? Like, because the lines have been blurred in fashion. Uh, but before it was more so about responsibilities. I think like when I grew up hearing it with real men did was handle their responsibilities, take care of their families, you know, make sure you know the kids are good, wife is good, all of that type of thing. So that was more like that real men phrase. Um, you know, so I think that it could have a different context now in today's time. But for me, it's about handling your shit. It's about handling your shit. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

Okay, okay, great, great. I think I agree with you. I think where I come from, that's always been my thinking. But my question, my my follow-up question to that is is real men the same as masculinity?

SPEAKER_00 13:14

I think the lines cross. Okay. Yeah. So, like, yes, there are some things there, but I think like there's no one specific definition for masculinity. Okay, good. Because I think that's what we often try to do is make black men, especially a monolith.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

Okay. So the question to you then is in today's time, what does masculinity mean to you?

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Um, to me, it's more of the real men, uh, the real man or real men definition of handling your business. Like, you know, you know, we say this term man's man or that type of thing, right? Like, you know, are you considering others in all aspects of your life? Like, I don't have children, but I take care of a lot of kids, you know. So I think that just handling your responsibility, um, making sure you stay good to be there for those around you that need you. Okay. As well.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

So let's break it down a little bit more. Um do you think uh this definition of masculinity that you've given, which I agree with, is one that is still the current definition today? Or are you hacking back to the definition of old and what you've always thought? Is that what people think of when they think masculine? And I'll help you dissect that a bit more. So let's hold the physicality and essence, physical essence of masculinity. Is that a baritone voice, six foot, broad shoulder, I can beat you up and all of that? Is that part of that definition?

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Uh no, I think we have to take that aggressive side of it away. Like you, you know, don't need to be, people don't need to be afraid of you to be masculine. Right? And again, I think for me, it's that do you handle your business as a man? Do you own up to your mistakes when you make them and teach others like that's part of life? Like all of those aspects of it. And I know that is an older definition. I'm definitely, you know, speaking from my generation of what that is because I know that it has transgressed into something else in today's time because people are trying to prove that they're not something else through whatever their definition of masculinity is.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

Okay, but but I think why I'm calling out the physical component of it is because I think it's important, and I'll tell you why. Um if you showed up to a room of your peers, other high-ranking education people, and you spent 10 minutes with them and left, and somebody were to be describing you, and they said, Oh, that was I I met Randoko guy very masculine. They've not seen you handle problems, they've not seen you take responsibility, they've not seen you own up to mistakes. So I'm assuming they made up that definition based on a 10-minute assessment of certain physical things that you present. Is that a power suit? Is that the sound of your voice? Is that the way you walk? Is that the way you command the space? So, so what part of some of that physical and physical essence plays into people's perception of masculinity today?

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Okay, absolutely. That's fair. Uh, your point is fair that they don't know all of those things. That's the background to my definition. So, yes, physical presence has something to do with it, mannerisms have something to do with it. Your voice has something to do with it. So sometimes all of that you can command a certain presence, and people will either be drawn to that or they could be, you know, pushed back from that because it may seem like, oh, I wouldn't have a certain conversation with him because they might make certain assumptions. Like you're not as open to certain things to be discussed with you.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

Yeah, so by certain assumptions, you mean he might be gay, and so they don't want to go there. Is that is that what you mean by certain assumptions?

SPEAKER_00 17:21

No, no, no. Like the assumption might be like if they wanted to speak about a topic that you know they felt like a masculine man wouldn't want to talk about, they might step back from that because they don't know. Yeah, because they don't know anything about you. So they might veer away from that or try to present themselves in a way that they feel will connect with you.

SPEAKER_02 17:45

Okay, so now let's talk about the downstream knockdown effect of that sort of definition of okay, I've spent enough time with this person, I've seen this person own up, make mistakes, take responsibilities, handle his responsibilities and all of that. And I've also and then when he's in the room, he has a presence that command. So based on that, equating it to some type of equation for masculinity, do you think and do you believe in today's society that the more people perceive you to be masculine, the more likely you are landing that leadership role?

SPEAKER_00 18:21

That's a tough one because it depends on depends on the industry. Yeah. Like education is open to all different types of people, and you see a you know a lot more acceptance, right? But in corporate America, that same acceptance might not be given as well. So I think it's based on the industry.

SPEAKER_02 18:42

Okay, it's based on so in my industry, I think it doesn't matter because it's tech, and I think it's just a spectrum of all sorts of people in there. So I would even say if you come across as what conventional society defines as masculine, it might almost translate to aggression.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Yeah, but in your former industry, former, like I can imagine that that becomes even more important.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

That the more you're perceived to be masculine, the more likely you're going to be the team lead, lead the role, have the rest of the room. So the other knockdown effect. So we've talked about leadership, the other knockdown effect, based on society standard, do you think the more masculine you're perceived to be, the more you're likely to get the girls?

SPEAKER_00 19:26

Absolutely. Why? Yeah, especially for black men.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

But square that against the rise of toxic masculinity as a terminology, because then it's also coming from women saying, Oh, he's toxic, toxic masculine, but then you're saying the more masculine you are, the more. So is there like a cliff where we want you to keep increasing in your masculinity? But once you get to this level, please don't go go for the other, otherwise, it becomes too much for me.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

Well, you know this, and just being from you know the generation that I'm from, I don't agree with this term toxic masculinity. Okay, everybody can be mad at me. I feel however they were. This is just my own thoughts, is that I think we use all these catchphrases to cover up for something else. We don't have to name it as toxic masculinity when someone may be a womanizer, you know, or an abuser. Like, name it for that. Give them the title that they deserve. Don't try to lump other men into that who are not, who don't wear those titles, you know, who don't do those things. So, you know, I disagree with the whole, you know, lumping everything as, you know, that might be toxic masculinity. No, that's like, you know, him just wanting to be the what a real man is to him.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

So what I'm hearing you saying is there is a measure of masculinity that is tied with chivalry.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Absolutely. You know, and I'll use an example. I'll use my brother as an example. Shout out to Dion. Uh big bro. Uh he doesn't want his wife to work. And that's his choice. You know, like that's their choice. Let me say that. Like him and his wife, they discussed that. She doesn't work.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

But does that make him more masculine?

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Some people might say that's toxic masculinity. Why, like, what you know, times are you stuck in? Like, why can't your wife work? Like, all of this type thing, right? Like, she's worked before, yes. But if that's the decision they make, why is it for somebody else to judge their marriage and say what that means?

SPEAKER_02 21:27

Okay, okay. You know, yeah, okay, so that that that makes a lot of sense. And then the the last knockdown effect I was going to ask is based on society's convention, the more masculine you are, is there more pressure for you to be the provider and the protector, not just in your family, but in the spaces in which you're operating?

SPEAKER_00 21:44

It will be viewed as that, yes. So I would say, yes, the pressure is is there for that because that's who people are gonna come to. You don't ask somebody for something that you think doesn't have it. Like you go to the person you feel can help you.

SPEAKER_02 21:58

Okay, so we talked about. Getting the girls, having the leadership position, being the provider. What happens when all three are not present? That's when I think the fault line starts to show. So, for example, you're able to get the girls, right? You are more likely to be asked to lead the soccer team or lead something in church because people see you as a leader, but you don't make enough money to bring back home. Does that create some type of imbalance in the three parts of that equation of masculinity, or in what way do you start to see tensions start to show up? Because I think the problem is it's all fine and good if you check all three boxes and nothing is now there's no problem. But there's a world where I'll give you an example in the tech world, you're more likely to then find that the person might be able to provide, the person might not always be the person chosen to lead because they are softer, and the person might not always be the first choice of the ladies. Um I would I would love to have some ladies' feedback. So please write us and tell us maybe we are tripping, maybe the 21st century lady wants um the man that is not the most masculine, but but I'm just assuming, and so that's usually what you will find. He provide check, lady and ladies man, and um um what do you call it leadership, maybe not at the highest level. I think people are okay with that. Well, what what combination do you think creates the most tension and chaos?

SPEAKER_00 23:27

Yeah, I think the most tension will be like if he can't provide, like if he doesn't, if he's struggling with figuring out life for himself.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

So, why is the providing part more powerful of all the traits? Why does that trump the physicality? Why does that trump the essence of the person, the leadership potential, the ability to woo woo a female partner? What is it about being provided? Is that just evolution? Is that social socialization?

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Yeah, I think a combination of both. Um, I think we do have to name that, like in some cases, that's not the case because you see a lot of women will take on a man that has less than um because they're in a more powerful position. Less than financially, less than financially, less than educationally. Okay, you know what I'm saying? Like speak on it, like all of those things, like we have to name, you know, majority of our listeners are black women, right? So we have to name that for them. They are still the highest demographic, most educated in this country, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:30

And therefore more likely to earn more. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

So a lot of uh African American women will take that on. Um, you can speak for Nigerian women, the culture that like you're y'all always say, like, no, she is not dealing with you if you're broke.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

Well, because it's still a very patriarchal society, and so men are more likely to be in positions of power than women, and then above and beyond that, it's still a relatively poor country with low levels of growth and productivity, and so what that means is that the resources are scarce, and because of that, being able to provide trumps every other thing, and so a lady will likely not uh marry down financially, um, even if if she marries down education-wise, but the financial power, but I think it's as a result of patriarchy and as a result of overall poverty and development level, as it were. But you then have the one-of-examples where in cases where that woman has a high power oil company job, or all of that, in some, not in in not in all cases, she may now decide to go against the grain and then marry somebody who she truly wants, even though that person is not you know standing up, but then it then shows up in funny other ways. For example, uh, she may marry somebody who makes financially less than her in a significant way, but when it comes to who pays the rent, she probably I've seen situations where she will forward the money to his account, so it looks like he's the one paid.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

Yeah, uh, when they go out, that's the slide, the credit card under the table at the network. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

So so so so, even though yes, she's making that money and yes, she's been able to marry financially down, she still has to perform in a way that indicates that he is the provider because there is some type of societal shame and stigma tied to it in the Nigerian context that I don't necessarily see in America.

SPEAKER_00 26:35

Yeah, um, I think that you know, so if he is not uh a strong provider in that sense, I think the other two categories have to be strong for him. Okay. Uh so I don't see where he wouldn't be masculine presenting and not a provider, and a woman will take him on. So I think it has to be more of that because then it's like the thought that he can fix things around the house. You know, he can support in that kind of way where he might not have as much financially, but he is able to do other things that support the household as well.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

Yeah, but I I think at least in Nigeria, there is a knock-on effect, and so what I mean is that there are traditional roles that women play, like you cook, you clean, you take care of the kids, and there are traditional roles that men play, such as you fix the hard things in the house, you wash the car, and you go make money and bring back home. So when he's not able to play that traditional role, I find, at least with people I know up close and personal, that switching to the other role of saying, okay, and then I will do the school run, I will pack the launches, I would make sure they bathe at night and wear clean clothes, they struggle. So it's almost like you've knocked me off my role, but I'm not willing to take on your role. And taking on your role is like a second level of humiliation because I'm already humiliated by not being able to provide, and now you want to humiliate me even further by asking me to play a role that is yours. And so, what you start to see is that first of all, she pretends to the world that he's the one providing, but second of all, she comes back from a nine to five and then has to do the other things that are traditionally her role because that man is not willing to take on some of that, and then there's a societal pressure to stay in such situation because there is still a lot of shame attached to divorcing and also at least you can see how it becomes very complicated in the Nigerian society, which is then why there's a strong deterrent for women to marry financially down in that context.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

That's fair. I think um in the African-American context that you will see men are okay with taking more of that role on cooking, cleaning, taking care of household things, um, or at least sharing those things uh with the woman and raising the kids and stuff, that type of thing. If again he is not at that level that she's at, and she's more of the provider, she may have more business trips, things like that going on. So she's just not available.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

Yeah, okay. And I think this problem of more men not being able to be providers is actually going to expand. And ask me why.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

Why?

SPEAKER_02 29:21

Because I think growing up, a lot of the sort of masculine leaning jobs were like blue-collar jobs. So you went to the oil rig or you tilled the farm, things that really um laid a lot of emphasis on your physicality, and now we we evolved into the internet age where it's more about the soft skills, so it's the marketing job, it's the communications job, it's the HR job that lean more to soft skills, emotional, high emotional intelligence skills that usually are associated with feminine traits, for better or for worse, you know. And I think most of that is not biology, I think most of it is just socialization. But then when you further complicate it with AI and the emergence of AI, even the five the ones where men, some men have managed to evolve and say, Okay, I can do more of the um jobs that demand soft skill and all, those jobs will even go away. And then people are talking of things like universal basic income where you're just gonna sit down and the government will hand you money because AI is doing not the productivity at all. I'm there's a professor in Israel called Uval Noah Harari who talks about the rise of the useless class as a result of the rise of AI, and so then you can imagine a world where, as a husband and a wife, we both don't have jobs because AI has taken the job the jobs, and then every month we get a check, and you get as much money as I get from the government, so kind of like they do in the UA.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Yeah, so you get a stipend.

SPEAKER_02 30:53

Yeah, but at least in the UA, there's there's even some constraint that protects masculinity, which is religion.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

Religion.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

Because it's very it's a Muslim country, and with Muslim, there is a respect for hierarchy where men are just above women. So that that won't be here. So you can imagine then that oh, I'm the woman, you are the man, I make as much money as you make because the government gives all the same. So what then becomes the masculine definition would be very interesting.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

I think um, and I don't have obviously the full data on this, but my speculation is that certain blue-collar jobs will still be there, though. Like you still need someone to do the HVAC systems, right? Uh, you still need someone to be an electrician, you know. Um construction still needs to happen. So certain, even with AI and the influx of all of that, I think there will still be certain blue-collar jobs that are associated and connected to uh the view of masculinity.

SPEAKER_02 31:53

So is that what when women say bring back real men, they're asking us to do? Get ready for those blue collar jobs.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

The one that has his sleeve rolled up with the pack of new ports in it. Okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02 32:04

No, this has been very fascinating. My next question to you is the archetype of alpha and beta males. To what extent do they represent spectrums of masculinity?

SPEAKER_00 32:21

Um, maybe you need to explain a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

So I think when we say, Oh, I'm I'm an alpha male, it means I'm the lead, I'm the big dog, I'm the one doing all of this. But we've just said now that the ability to provide is based on the ability to get a job, and a lot of jobs don't lean to natural masculine traits, as it were. And so what you may find is that it's the quote-unquote softer spoken, weaker person, um, a man who is actually the higher earner and higher provider. And so it starts to challenge the notion of what we've always said this is an alpha male versus a better male. Does that does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 32:58

It makes sense. I think I go back to the struggle of y'all asked for us to go deep, like what it means to even be a black man in America, and like you know there. What effects post-traumatic slave syndrome has had on us because we had to be brute, right? You had to be able to, you know, pick as much cotton as possible to be that heavy laborer. Like uh, we get over sexualized, you know, as black men. So I think that I really wish it was a way that people could not see us like and and just allow us to be men, you know, without all of this content. And we do it to ourselves too. You have to be a specific way to just be accepted as a man, you know. Whereas I feel like other races and even other nationalities, like you can still be black and stuff, and you don't have that same pressure that black men have in America where we even talk about alpha and beta males. Like, is this a conversation in the Caucasian community?

SPEAKER_02 34:06

I don't know. It's not a conversation in Nigeria, but but it's things I've heard. It's the kind of thing I've heard, oh, I'm an alpha dog. I'm an alpha, you know. Yeah. How much of that is stemming from fraternities?

SPEAKER_00 34:19

Oh, you're trying to call my fraternity.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

I'm just asking the questions, right?

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Even within uh the divine nine, like, yes, there are certain fraternities that are viewed as more masculine than others. And that's all I'm gonna say on that topic because I'm not trying to get rid of any of our listeners. So that's you people think that. Yeah, that's what I said. Like, we even do it to ourselves. Like I named that, that we do that to ourselves. But uh, like I said, what I'm trying to project more is that we're not a monolith. And it is okay to be however you are, you know, as a black man, as a man. You know, like how you present and how you show up, like that's okay. It may not be as strong as my presence or as strong as whoever's presence, and it's okay for you to just simply be you and like that's cool. You know what I'm saying? It doesn't have to be, you know, you have to show up as this aggressive, assertive type man.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

I would like to move on and talk about some cultural shocks that border around masculinity that I've experienced. So, you know, growing up in Nigeria, working in a lot of countries in sub-Saharan Africa, the idea that when you go for social functions, the women stay together in one place and socialize, the men stay together in one place and socialize was very common to me, right? Um, having male best friends for life that you hang out with and you go through certain experiences that are not necessarily things you experience with your wife is very common. Um in certain places in like in East Africa, best male friends holding hands and walking on the street is not sexualized, it's very common. Um in the Middle East, yeah, and in the Middle East, right? As a medical student back home in Nigeria, there were many holiday trips where me and my friends, you know, booked one room and we all slept on the same bed. But I just remember just coming to America and realizing that you can't sleep on the same bed, you can't hold hands, you cannot show affection, you can't hug, you can't, you know. So it's almost like there's a hard cage that you've put yourself in, and it was like very cultural revealing to me to just observe that. But then I'm like, where does that come from? I know you've mentioned slavery, is that just a pure vestigial of slavery, or is there other things that come into the mix that say in other parts of the world where black people exist, there is more congeniality and more brotherly love expression that is not rife with aggression. Because even when I've seen you hang out with your fraternity pros, I know you guys say love you, bro, love you, but even in all of that, it's still roughnecking that happens. So it's almost like there has to be this deliberate rough part to show that that's what men do, and and and it's uniquely American. Because in Britain I didn't see that, in Nigeria, in sub-Saharan Africa countries, I didn't see that. It's a unique thing here. So, where where does that come from?

SPEAKER_00 37:16

And I spoke on it, some like, yeah, that that need to that society has put that on us as black men, right? Like, you have to be this assertive, which then produces the term toxic masculinity, right? Um, but I do want to say this because some of it has to do with age or whatever. So, in fairness, uh, when we were younger, uh, my fraternity brothers and I, when we traveled, we did all stay in the same hotel, you know, like hung out together in the same room. You got in where you fit in. You might sleep on the bed, you might sleep on the floor, you might sleep on the couch. You just got in where you fit in, like we were young, just wanting to be on the scene or make it to the conclave or make it to this event, you know, or whatever. As we got older and got a little more money in our pocket, it was like, nah, dude, you get your room, I'm gonna get my room, or we're at least gonna have our own beds. Like, I ain't sleeping with nobody. Okay, like that type of thing. So that did shift as we got older. So I think it was more of an age thing because you know, we've traveled and and had six, seven people in one hotel room, you know. And again, everybody got in where they fit in, and we were cool and hanging out and joking and carrying on, you just need a uh crust in the corner, as we call it in my fraternity. Uh, you know, so you got in where you fit in. Okay. Um, so I think that has something to do with it, but still the point of with African American men, it is this thing that we all must show up a certain way for it to be viewed as masculine. You must like sports, you know, you must, you know, uh just do certain things that you know men do or whatever, have that connection uh with one another that brings us together through that. Okay, whether it's smoking a cigar or whatever that those things are viewed as masculine.

SPEAKER_02 39:03

Okay, okay. That's that's very interesting. So, you know, I always like to end with our rapid fire. Are you ready?

SPEAKER_00 39:10

I stay ready.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

Okay. And it's not a lot, it's just four of them. Okay. So um, yes or no, that's all I need, right? From you. If you are pushed, you can give some context, but I would like yes or no because it's rapid. It is masculine to ask for a mental health day.

SPEAKER_00 39:35

It's like, what are you mental healthing from? Like, it was such a pause. I was like, go to work. Because you know I had this problem with people that don't know. Is it masculine? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 39:47

No, okay, God, what in the toxicity is going on?

SPEAKER_00 39:51

I knew I was gonna get that.

SPEAKER_02 39:53

But it is masculine to let your partner earn more than you.

SPEAKER_00 39:58

Emphasis on let if she earns more, you should be okay with that, as long as you know the dynamics of your relationship is cool.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

It is masculine to carry a man bag in 2026, depending on the size.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

Okay, because I have one, but we have to. Nobody asked you to call me out. I think it depends on the size. Like, once it starts getting like, you know, large per size, like you know, okay, handle if it's like the you know, just strap around like okay, okay. It's okay.

SPEAKER_02 40:39

Yeah, does the color matter?

SPEAKER_00 40:41

To a certain degree, to a certain degree.

SPEAKER_02 40:44

You're in trouble.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

I'm in trouble, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:46

Like okay, the last thing it's masculine to admit you don't have the answer.

SPEAKER_00 40:55

Yes, that's masculine.

SPEAKER_02 40:56

You can say you don't know, and that that one rings well for me because I think I spend a lot of my days telling people I don't know what this is and to help me or whatever. So, yeah, yeah. Okay, I'll tell you one more. It is masculine to say I'm sorry. Yes, that is masculine. Good, good. You should apologize, you should apologize. Yeah, that that makes sense. Okay, so yeah, so that's that's the episode today. I think it was a great one. Um, I think we went as deep as we can to talk about this issue and give our perspectives, and I think we should range from both the you know African immigrant cultural perspective and what it is about the black experience with masculinity. Um, so guys, um, give us your feedback, um, use the fan mail, continue to share with more people. Our numbers are growing. So, thank you, thank you very much. Um, Brandon, what are you gonna be doing the next couple of weeks before we record again?

SPEAKER_00 41:45

Um, wrapping up state testing uh at school. Nothing special planned. Hopefully, the weather just gets better uh and nicer. Uh, and then you know, we'll be headed towards another break with uh Memorial Day weekend coming up um in a few weeks. So just uh, you know, looking forward to that. Um, looking forward to hearing back from you guys, our listeners. Thank you so much. We cannot say how much we appreciate you. Um, so many of you, even if you don't message like um through our link or whatever, you're sending me text messages and saying you're listening or sending me shout-outs, or even sharing the link on your Facebook. So, shout out to my cousin Ajaya in Virginia who shared our link on her Facebook page. Uh, so thank you guys. We really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 42:32

Yeah, I have one more. I lied. I have one more thing that I want to ask you.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

We're gonna expand this episode in the future.

SPEAKER_02 42:40

Say, because you you you you mentor a lot of young men. Yes. As as as as young as five, six, seven year old. That's that's your youngest class, right? Yeah, four year old. Four, four.

SPEAKER_00 42:51

Like I'm uh my school is pre-K through fifth grade.

SPEAKER_02 42:54

So project 20 years from now that four-year-old is 24. What do you hope masculinity will be then?

SPEAKER_00 43:01

What do I hope or what do I think?

SPEAKER_02 43:03

Well, what do you hope?

SPEAKER_00 43:05

I hope that it will still have uh some of its foundation of being a provider, understanding what that means, um, but also just allowing those young men to just be them show up as them full as their full self. Like, like know that you're not a monolith, there are different, all different types of black men. Um, and it is okay just to be yourself. And with that, good evening, guys. Thank you. How can they find us though?

SPEAKER_02 43:35

Oh, um, you do it today.

SPEAKER_00 43:38

I do it today. You will get ready to cut us right off. Listen, yeah, you can find us on Spotify. That's for the rich people, because definitely rich people have Spotify. But no.

SPEAKER_02 43:49

It's a free version. It's a free version. Yeah, it does have commercials in between. And you don't listen to commercials.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Also, Apple Podcasts Amazon Music and Amazon Music.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

Anywhere you get your podcast from. We are there. Routes and routes. Routes and routes. Put us on number one. All right. Bye-bye. Bye.