Junto: Classic Book Discussions!
Not many of us feel great confidence in our "stellar" education, no matter how many degrees we have. You may feel under-educated and ill-equipped, but the classics hold all the keys to your self-education and open up rooms of delightful wisdom.
I am recording the great discussions I have with Esther (age 14) and Adalyn (age 15) for you so you can strengthen your own intellectual courage, curiosity and delight.
I would LOVE to hear from you. There is always more to discuss about a book, and I would love to hear your thoughts, your struggles, and your suggestions! Email: redeemmyeducation@gmail.com
Junto: Classic Book Discussions!
The Longing for Beauty: Till we have Faces Ch 7-8
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Welcome back to the Podcast of the Junto Club! I’m excited to share this conversation with you about the book Till we have Faces by C. S. Lewis. I’m talking about chapters 5 & 6 with Adalyn and Esther, and through this conversation I can literally see how we are growing in wisdom.
Enjoy!
Add to your TBR! Grab our list of Favorite Books Here: https://www.growingfruitfulfamilies.com/classic-books-podcast
Welcome to the podcast. I'm your host, Angelica Cable. And today I am sharing with you a discussion I had about the book Till We Have Faces by C.S. Lewis. Adeline, Esther, and I are talking about chapters seven and eight. And I could literally see through the conversation that we were gaining wisdom. So enjoy. Adeline, will you recapfully read? Yes. Oral goes into Psyche's room that she's being imprisoned in at the moment so that she doesn't escape. And she goes in there and she sees Psyche. And there is this picture that forever put in Oro's mind. And that's the Psyche sitting on a bed with a lamp. And so she rushes the Psyche. And uh it seems like Oral is more like the one who is being hurt by what's going to happen. Because Psyche was so composed. So they talk about how Psyche's going to be sacrificed, really. And Psyche is like, I'm not scared. I know, like this is something I've been feeling my entire life, and that's death. But not in like a suicidal way. She longed for something greater. And she's talking about all these things, and it seems very heavenly, you know, like she's always been pulled to this something greater. And for her, it's the Grey Mountains. So when they were little, they used to fantasize Psyche would marry a king and he'd build her a palace up in the Great Mountains. But now she's going to be sacrificed to the god of the Great Mountains. So she's going to be married to the king of the Great Mountains. And then they talk about how marriage and being devoured were similar. Psyche says that each uh this marriage and the death of her maidenhood and uh uh having children, those are all like deaths, and so it is a sort of devouring. But she also kind of seems to him that the brute, his lust is like a devouring. Eventually, Oral is really mad at Psyche for wanting to die. Then and she has to leave without them making up, and then Psyche is sacrificed, and Oral is put into a state of utter madness for the rest of the time. Excellent.
SPEAKER_00I think it's very interesting her longing for the Grey Mountains because I entirely agree with her. So she has this longing for beauty, this longing for heaven, this longing that is at the heart of every man, and Oral just hasn't found it yet.
SPEAKER_01Oh I also it's really resonated with a psyche, but I didn't realize that Oriol doesn't have that.
SPEAKER_00She's missing it. So in Anne of the Island by Ellen Montgomery, there's this one girl who's dying of tuberculosis, and so she was causing a flood. She's dying of that. And she didn't understand that to die was to pass away from all these feudal things. And she was always a very flirtatious young woman. And so she was missing all that, and she was heartbroken. She didn't know how to die correctly with a good heart. And she never had settled down with her life. She was 18, but still, she never like had a point in her life. And so I think that's the opposite of Psyche. Psyche is a young woman who knows what she's going to go to do, and she's prepared for that death. And she's excited for it. Like all that's what a believer shouldn't be. And I it gives me like a thrill reading her what she says to talk about it. And I'm gonna read this quote. She said, Why Bardia there, I love Bardia, would look on it six times a day and whistle a tune as he goes to find it. We have made little use of the fox's teachings if we are to be scared by death. And do you know, sister, he has sometimes let out that there were other pre-masters than those he follows himself. Masters who have taught that death opens a door out of a little dark room. That's all the life we have known before it, into a great, real place where the true sun shines and we shall meet. Then she gets cut off there. But she's showing that what she believes is that life is a dark room that with no really light in it. And that what it that's what it is for her. And for Oral, and she understands that there is something greater. She understands that she's not the center of the universe.
SPEAKER_01So the tower that Psyche is in that needs a lamp even at noon reminded me so much of this life being a dark room, and really it's light outside.
SPEAKER_00She knows that beyond that is the actual world.
SPEAKER_01Totally agree. The um Psyche is very interesting with her philosophy because she's totally different from the fox, though she references him many, many times. She says that she's not afraid of death, but she does believe that there is something higher. And the fox doesn't want to believe he anything except what he can see and what he can feel. And so Psyche is completely opposite. She doesn't want to feel or see, she wants to be in this state of spirituality. Oh, I liked Psyche said, um, I have come to feel more and more that the fox hasn't the whole truth.
SPEAKER_00Her longing for going to the Grey Mountain is completely righteous and good. And I think she's showing very Christian feels. Because to the truth is, as believers, we are in a world that we do not belong in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00We do not belong on her. This is just per like a little trial. And I think that's very important to understand for Psyche that she's not does not belong on her. And that's she's meant for something higher. And that's really hard for Oral.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, which that's what's so shocking. Cause what does Oriol have to live for in Glow? She has a horrible existence. I I almost in this chapter started thinking, like, is this like hell? I mean, because well, Psyche brings up such a great point. If I stay here, what like what is in it for me? There's I'm just gonna be sold off to some king who's probably as bad as my dad. And so why should Oriel be attached to Glom? There's nothing to attach her there. And she's not frivolous either, which I love the point, Esther, that you made that if you're like if your life is frivolous and you're attached to uh feudal things, then it attaches you to Earth and you're not longing, you know, for the Grey Mountains. But Oriel, why in the world would she not want to leave? The only two things that she says that connects her to Guam are the fox and Psyche. And Psyche's, yeah, she's dead to Oriel now. And there are times where she mentions that she doesn't want the fox to be brought up anymore, she wants it to be her and Psyche. Yeah. And so I feel like Psyche is Oriol's only love.
SPEAKER_00Like truly. She's her idol. She worship her worships her more than every other person in Glow. And I think that's really bad. And it's gonna ruin her.
SPEAKER_01So Oral is very logical, but she's also she's got this sense of I need to fear the gods, but not because she feels that they're holy, but because she feels that if she doesn't, she'll be coming. So she has this bad fear of the gods. Psyche, on the other hand, she does not fear them whatsoever. Like the god of the great mountain. She's like, oh well, I'm gonna be married to him. And that's that. Oral, she's not, she's not ready to give her a sister away to something that's supposed to be devouring her. And uh she doesn't see like the greater purpose of it. So Psyche is very people focused. So on the whole, she uh even though she's hurting Oral, she's ready to sacrifice herself for the people. Well, Oral is more focused on the people that she loves. So she would rather sacrifice all of Gloam than let Psyche die. So Oral is a bit selfish in that sense, but you know, I see where she I definitely see where she's coming from. And then the fox, they both have kind of different points of view on him. Oral sees him as a mentor figure that's really guided her through everything. But psyche sees him more as like a grandfather kind of, oh, he knows a lot. He doesn't know everything though. He uh he's very limited point of view. Oral sees him, you know, more as knowing everything, right other than the you know, fear of the gods kind of thing. She does differ from him there, but uh they they do differ a lot in a lot of things, but you know, the most is that Psyche sees this beauty and she is that beauty, she's truly beautiful, and I feel like that's one of the reasons why she is beautiful, is because she feels the beauty, but Oriel is ugly and she does not know the beauty. So their appearances also reflect their view on the world and the state that it is in, and if there is a higher thing. So I think both Psyche and Oriol have great reasons to try to get out of glow. But Psyche sees her chance and she's like, Wait, this is great, because she thinks something good is out there, and she's convinced of that, or mostly convinced, right? She's a little scared that she's wrong, but mostly she's like, I really think this is the source of beauty and this is what I long for. But I think Oral doesn't see any, like you were saying, she sees no goodness, and so although she has even a worse existence than Psyche, she's not trying to escape because what she has no hope. There's nothing for her to look for that is good. She doesn't think that the outer world is good. I guess the only beauty she's ever seen is Psyche, herself. And that's probably why it's so hard for her to give up and why she's given her whole life. You were saying, like you were saying, Esther, her whole life is designated for Psyche. This is an accusation against the gods, which is brought up again, but I was shocked when Psyche started giving a defense for the gods. It was such a switch and a very powerful one.
SPEAKER_00They've done nothing good to me my entire life. Which is kind of true. And she thinks that either the gods are not real and this horrible priest is ruining them, or that the gods are infamous creatures who are rejoicing in their evil. But Psyche, on the other hand, says, What if there are really gods? What if they're doing it for another purpose that we do not understand? What if I am to wed a god? Oriel thinks that she's being haughty and proud because she's gonna marry a god. Which I think Key Psyche's just trying to glean any hope she can from the situation, and I admire her for that. It's really funny that these two chapters have completely slipped drank and go. Oh, yes. Completely. So I actually think that Psyche is I do this type of thing too, where I see an evil that's happening, and first I throw off it about it, and then I start thinking, wait, what if this is good thing?
SPEAKER_01Maybe Psyche's defense for the gods may be that the gods are doing things that look bad, but there might be something behind it that is good.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I agree. I think that that is exactly why in life God may take away people that we love and they may die, but that draws us even closer to wanting to go to heaven, wanting to die ourselves. And I think this is the point. I think it's gonna try to get Oriel to look for the greater for the greater purpose in life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, will Oriel's eyes ever be opened to something beyond clone? That'll be interesting. I want to read this quote. Psyche is talking about that she has this kind of longing for death. And Oriel says, Oh, Psyche, have I made you so little happy as that? No, no, no, she said. You don't understand. Not that kind of longing. It was when I was happiest that I longed most. It was on happy days when we were up there on the hills, the three of us, with the wind and the sunshine, where you couldn't see gloom or the palace. Do you remember? The color and the smell, and looking across at the gray mountain in the distance. And because it was so beautiful, it set me longing, always longing. Somewhere else, there must be more of it. Everything seemed to be saying, Psyche, come. The sweetest thing in all my life has been the longing to reach the mountain, to find the place where all the beauty came from. It reminded me of um the song we're practicing in choir, uh, We Were Made for Heaven. So good. We talked a lot about chapter seven. We've talked like nothing about chapter eight after Psyche dies.
SPEAKER_00So Urul was basically knocked out and sick for two weeks. Oh. And she was dreaming the whole time about how evil Psyche was. Yeah. And this seems to go more along the lines of the actual myth. And I started getting worried that she's gonna change her mind and not eat Psyche. And that's how this whole how she will die by falling off a cliff. Which I don't know if she will or not, because this isn't this isn't the actual myth. But that's what happens in the real myth. And she dreams that she was pretty. That's what mean you want to cry. She was pretty, and she had a lover. And one time it was the very unfortunate young man who was turned into a eunuch, and the other time it was Bardia, and she dreamed that she was becoming a a bride, and she was about to get married, and then Psyche, the size of her forefinger, walked up and pulled the young the man away and stuffed off. And she just cried. And this happened a lot, and Psyche was just mistreating her. Psyche and Redevil were throwing her off cliffs. Psyche and Redevil were ruining her life and making her ugly. They were going off by themselves. Everything was going bad because of Psyche. And she woke up and it was raining. And she knew she loved Psyche.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01I followed the same pattern of thought when I was reading about her dreams. I was like, oh no, this sounds like the evil stepsister, like a typical, you know, myth. Um, so I just wondered what to do with that information, because I know C.S. Liz put it in there on in there on purpose. Oh, I but I did have a thought maybe, because I don't think it's going to be that Oriel turns on Psyche. I can't imagine that actually happening. But maybe it's that what Psyche represents, the beauty of the gods, Orial can't just cannot handle that. And so the same way that Oriel feels about the gods, now she's beginning to feel, at least in dreams, she's beginning to feel that against Psyche.
SPEAKER_00Did I imagine it, or did she say that she thinks the gods placed those dreams?
SPEAKER_01Yes, she said, here's another accusation against the gods. You can't escape them, even when you're asleep, they infiltrate your dreams. Which there is a god of dreams and a god of sleep in Greek mythology. So that is true. And there are many times where they give mortals dreams on purpose. I was also very surprised when it was raining. I was like, oh, I guess Psyche was supposed to be sacrificed, and it wasn't just a false prophecy because the priest was jealous. Now the land is getting blessed again. I want to know if there will be any more gods brought up other than Umgat and the goddess of Great Mountain. I want to know if Oriel will ever see beauty and or and have that beauty reflected in her own self.
SPEAKER_00I want to know if the fox will die an atheist.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because he's gonna die in the book for sure. He'll get murdered. Murdered? Yeah. By who? King. Because something horrible has to happen. So she becomes hard-hearted.
SPEAKER_01So she loses everything.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, she has to lose even more. And then Red Evil's gonna be even more annoying.
SPEAKER_01Okay, one more question. What wisdom is in these chapters that you want to take with you?
SPEAKER_00The knowledge of the Green Mountains, basically how we were meant to worship something higher. And the world is a dark room that when death opens, it opens a door to something even better.
SPEAKER_01How the world can tell you all these things about beauty and what it really is. But in your s heart, you'll always know what beauty is, and that is God. And I guess the glimpses of beauty on this earth are just small hints of the world to come. Uh C.S. Lewis brought up some awesome things for us to think about. What are the intentions of the gods? How does beauty call us into the next world? I hope you join us next time. We're going to be discussing chapters 9, 10, and 11. So we'll see you then.